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Thursday, October 04, 2007
Bob  Burney :: Townhall.com Columnist
Are We Reaching the Lost, or Rearranging the Chairs?
by Bob Burney
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Have you ever had the powerful experience of seeing seemingly disparate newspaper articles suddenly come together in a “connect the dots” manner? This happened to me recently as I was preparing for my daily radio program.

What connection could there be with an article about Muslims in the Pentagon, another about the 100 fastest growing churches in America and another about American business executives bemoaning the fact that more and more of the young people they hire are horribly narcissistic? A close connection, indeed.

Out of the Washington Times is a troubling article about the growing number of Muslims in America’s military and the concessions that are being made for their religious practices. It started with a description of a celebration of Ramadan that was actually held within the walls of the Pentagon. That’s not actually what caught my eye while in my “dot connecting mode.” This is what grabbed me: “the Pew Hispanic Center estimates the U.S. Muslim population in 2007 at 2.35 million people and growing….” (italics mine).

The business story in the Boston Globe titled, “The New Me Generation” has the following subtitle: “The crop of talented recent graduates coming into today’s workforce is widely seen as narcissistic and entitled. And those are their best qualities.” The article quotes several business executives, psychologists and studies, all indicating that today’s young adults may be the most selfish and self-serving generation in American history. The conclusion is that the situation is getting worse with no reasonable expectation of improvement any time soon.

The last article is from Outreach Magazine and features a recent study on America’s 100 largest and fastest growing churches. The story highlights the “megatrends” that are common in all of these churches. As I anxiously looked to see what was causing these churches to grow, I was deeply disappointed to see little mentioned about anything biblical or spiritual. (I’m certainly not saying there isn’t anything biblical or spiritual going on in these churches. I’m simply commenting on the “analysis” offered as to their rapid growth.)

As I studied these articles along with over a dozen others in preparation for the day’s program I found myself seeing these stories profoundly connected. Let me explain.

I am absolutely thrilled that we have so many evangelical churches in America that are growing. I have nothing against the current megachurch trend just so long as these churches are actually biblically-based congregations. Unfortunately, however, all of the attention the megachurch trend receives sometimes gives a false view of what is actually happening, spiritually, in our country.

The statistics vary from poll to poll and study to study, but all agree on this: church attendance is not increasing in America. It is either staying steady or declining. Evangelical Christianity is not on the rise. Several studies in the past few years have indicated that at least 80 percent of all church growth, including and especially the megachurches, is “transfer” growth, not evangelism. In other words, we’re merely moving bodies from one church to another. Too often in today’s consumer oriented culture this simply means many smaller churches in a particular community “go out of business” and merge into a bigger church.

At the risk of painting with too broad a brush, it seems that much of the growth in some churches has come from a seeker-sensitive mentality that works to give people anything and everything they want. The program of the church is built on “felt needs” and desires. You do a survey, find out what people want and you give it to them in order to fill seats with warm bodies. It’s the Wal-Mart syndrome. When Wal-Mart comes to town most of the “Mom-and-Pop” shops end up closing—they simply can’t compete. Today’s megachurches can have this same monopolizing effect.

Do you see the line connecting this “dot” with the article lamenting our narcissistic culture? Is it possible that in our zeal to build bigger and bigger churches we have unknowingly fed the narcissism of our age? Is it possible we have become part of the problem rather than leaders in administering the cure? For centuries the cry of the Church was “come and die with us.” Too often today our battle-cry seems to be more like, “come and let us entertain you.” For a vast swath of evangelicalism, the true meaning of the Cross has been lost.

Finally, I saw a connection with the article on the Pentagon and the growing Muslim population. Islam is growing in America, evangelical Christianity is not. We’ve got far more megachurches than ever before, but we’re not reaching more people—just re-arranging the ones we’ve already reached. Maybe it’s time to stop complaining and worrying about how Muslims are taking away our rights and start trying to reach them with the Good News of Jesus Christ.

The conclusion in all of this for me is that it begins and ends with the Church—the one institution the Lord Jesus promised to build such that the gates of Hades will not overcome it (cf. Matt. 16:18). The way to combat narcissism and promote real evangelism in the culture is for the Church to more vitally believe and live out the words of the Apostle Paul in Galatians 2:20: “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

This, of course, is the best news story of the day.

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About The Author

Bob Burney is Salem Communications’ award-winning host of Bob Burney Live, heard weekday afternoons on WRFD-AM 880 in Columbus, Ohio.

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interesting articl
my brother is an ordained baptist minister and speaks bout how the mega churches are hurting the traditional community churches because ti offers so many activities from childcare to clubs for every activity under the sun.
it has become a social gthering and not a religious gathering

Many Churches today
are so seeker friendly they are afraid to offend someone. They wont preach against anything for fear of driving people away. What all of these preachers and churches dont realize is that more people will come if you give it to them in black and white. Spurgeon did that, he described trying to get his congregation into the building as trying to put the sea into a tea kettle. Billy Sunday saw bars shutdown permanently when he came to preach. Thats what we need today, not a church with a workout group, a first time parent group, a 21-24 group, a 24-30 group, a people with brown hair group, etc etc etc...

solo610
i would hpe though that you would also want the love and redemption Jesus broutht to be taught as well.

Prepare To Meet Thy God
Most Bible students who believe in dispensationalism will acknowledge that we are in the Laodicea church age.

In Revelation 2:1- 3:22 seven church are mentioned of which each one represents a period of time in history from the beginning of the early church age till the tribulation.

We are now in the last church age. How long it will last, who knows.

Christ is coming again as a thief in the night.
Will He find faith, surely He will, but not much.

There are some signs of each one of these seven churches in the churches of our day, but predominately the last church describes today’s church.

I personally feel the end times closing in. I refuse to get into date setting because it dishonors Gods Word. But you do have signs of the tribulation.
It could happen anytime.

The stage for Ezekiel 38-39 is being prepared.
Israel is the focal point.
God will not allow her to be destroyed.
If you don’t believe the Bible, this is meaningless to you.

If you do, I would get my house in order.

religouslib
Love and redemption are important. God is not mocked however, and that is exactly what the majority tend to do. A repentant man works to rid himself of habitual sins. An unrepentant man finds a church and version of the Bible that will confirm what he already believes, that everything he is doing is ok, God dosent really mind.

The Forgotten Spurgeon…

Spurgeon was opposed to what has become orthodox in today’s church. Today’s gospel does not fully disclose the Biblical testimony concerning the condition of sinners, and it does not do justice to the terrible extent of their needs.

The Scripture represents us, by nature, as not only in need of salvation from the guilt of sin, but in need of an omnipotent power to quicken us from being ‘dead in trespasses and in sins’.

We are not only under condemnation through our offenses, but we are under the dominion of a fallen nature, which is at enmity against God. It is not only that we have committed sins for which we need mercy, but we have a sinful nature which needs to be made anew.

Today’s gospel preaches the new birth, but it preaches it as a consequence of or an accompaniment to the human decision; it represents man as being born again by repenting and believing, as though these spiritual acts are within the ability of the unconverted.

This teaching is only possible because of an under estimation of the total ruin and impotence of the sinner. The Scripture says that the natural man cannot receive spiritual things and it is because of this that the Divine quickening must precede the human response.

Spurgeon’s doctrine would empty today’s mega-churches. His message was one that humiliated men as lost in sin and without hope in themselves. Broken men under the conviction of sin were then given the good news. In Christ there is not only the forgiveness of sins, but also a perfect righteousness to cover us before God. This is the double imputation of the gospel. Christ takes our sin and He gives us His righteousness. Exalting the grace of God in Christ Jesus is the great need of today's church.

[Credits to Iain Murray’s The Forgotten Spurgeon]


God so loved the World ...

Too many 'Christians' stop there and proceed no farther.

It is true that God loves the world (all mankind); after all, He created us in His image. But even Adam refused to obey God and all Creation groans because of that disobedience.

The rest of the verse says, "... that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Though God loves us, we still inherited death (physical and spiritual) from Adam. We are destined to die. This life we experience is fatal.

In order to receive spiritual life we must 'believe' (present tense, continuous action) in the Son. We cannot truly 'believe' in the Son and if we remain in our sins.

If churches do not teach about sin, then how can they teach about salvation? Before we can be saved we must be made aware of our sins and our need for that salvation.

I left organized religion years back when it became apparent to me that sin and its consequences were not being taught because the very people who should teach it (the priests, ministers, pastors) were guilty of sin and instead of repenting and leading people away from sin were teaching "God so loved the world".

WorldlyWiseMan
WorldlyWiseMan writes: Friday, October, 05, 2007 2:02 AM
The Forgotten Spurgeon…

Spurgeon was opposed to what has become orthodox in today’s church. Today’s gospel does not fully disclose the Biblical testimony concerning the condition of sinners, and it does not do justice to the terrible extent of their needs.

The Scripture represents us, by nature, as not only in need of salvation from the guilt of sin, but in need of an omnipotent power to quicken us from being ‘dead in trespasses and in sins’.

We are not only under condemnation through our offenses, but we are under the dominion of a fallen nature, which is at enmity against God. It is not only that we have committed sins for which we need mercy, but we have a sinful nature which needs to be made anew.

Today’s gospel preaches the new birth, but it preaches it as a consequence of or an accompaniment to the human decision; it represents man as being born again by repenting and believing, as though these spiritual acts are within the ability of the unconverted.

This teaching is only possible because of an under estimation of the total ruin and impotence of the sinner. The Scripture says that the natural man cannot receive spiritual things and it is because of this that the Divine quickening must precede the human response.

Spurgeon’s doctrine would empty today’s mega-churches. His message was one that humiliated men as lost in sin and without hope in themselves. Broken men under the conviction of sin were then given the good news. In Christ there is not only the forgiveness of sins, but also a perfect righteousness to cover us before God. This is the double imputation of the gospel. Christ takes our sin and He gives us His righteousness. Exalting the grace of God in Christ Jesus is the great need of today's church.

[Credits to Iain Murray’s The Forgotten Spurgeon]

Foxfire:

Amen to that!


BIRDMAN
BIRDMAN writes: Friday, October, 05, 2007 5:23 AM
God so loved the World ...

Too many 'Christians' stop there and proceed no farther.

It is true that God loves the world (all mankind); after all, He created us in His image. But even Adam refused to obey God and all Creation groans because of that disobedience.

The rest of the verse says, "... that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Though God loves us, we still inherited death (physical and spiritual) from Adam. We are destined to die. This life we experience is fatal.

In order to receive spiritual life we must 'believe' (present tense, continuous action) in the Son. We cannot truly 'believe' in the Son and if we remain in our sins.

If churches do not teach about sin, then how can they teach about salvation? Before we can be saved we must be made aware of our sins and our need for that salvation.

I left organized religion years back when it became apparent to me that sin and its consequences were not being taught because the very people who should teach it (the priests, ministers, pastors) were guilty of sin and instead of repenting and leading people away from sin were teaching "God so loved the world".

Foxfire:

Amen to that also!

Seeker Churches
Fun places to be, where those who will "seek" a no-fault divorce can be Christian coddled while getting it, but the sanctuary is so big they can all still go to the same church after the divorce.

Today's Spiritual Situation
This observer has long believed that neither the old fashioned community churches nor the megachurches are the correct model. If the reader will check out the Book of Acts, he or she will observe that God had the believers meeting in their houses or apartments. From a practical perspective, why is this better than the pile of brick or stone on the street corner?Well, since that venue is small, it allows for most attendees spiritual needs to be met. They can otherwise get lost in too large of a crowd. Too, the longstanding belief that Christians should meet in either the community or megachurches perpetuates the institutionalist mindset, which, along with denominationalism, has long plagued Christianity, especially in America.As a classic example, monies collected in these churches usually get earmarked to meet the need of either the buildin(s), or the bureaucracy that springs up around it.Would it not be much better if those funds were spent to help the congregation's members? The sheeple are easily led to believe that the Church is that pile of brick or stone. It is not. It is "where two or three are gathered in My Name", saith the Lord Jesus Christ.

Today's Spiritual Situation II:
In a way, Osama may have done us a favor on 9-11. It could be said that 9-11 marked the beginning of the end of Islam. However Christianity will not be able to take advantage of Islam's inherent weaknesses until Christianity regains it's nerve in Christ. As it is written, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." However, we suffer the politically correct, who would dissuade us from the above. Since their motivation is Fear, and not Faith, they should be ignored. We do live in troubled times. The method for dealing with that is to "preach the Word...in season or out." But Christians had better learn it accurately. They can start with giving the concept of the trinity the old heave-ho. Both Islam and the Jews are right: there is One God.That Christianity holds to the concept of three in one provokes immediate disdain with those two groups. And as long as so-called Christianity continues to hold onto this very ancient error, they will stay weak.Oh, they may have some successes along the edges, but that's it.To clarify things: while the Bible states that there are two gods,the true one is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.(II Corinthians 4:3-7) The false god is the god of this world, Satan. It is the latter whom Islam seems to be apparently worshipping.This dovetails neatly with biblical testimony that Satan, as the arch-enemy of God, either wants to be worshipped as God, or thwart the intentions of the true God.So get this straight ,folks. It is most basic. You will need to know this in order to convert Islam.

God led, Spirit filled, Christ Centered
As a Christian who has experenced some of the worst of worldy behaviour in churches, I find that unless the church starts its ministry with 2 Tim 3:16-17, That church is only pleasing itself not God, nor is it truly proclaiming Christ. But the reality is that the "Church" is comprised of individuals who, if not truly taught the entire Word Of God, are easly led astray by the Prince of the World (read Satan)by their own ego's and Greed for their own individual desires, not Gods desire for His creation to live a full and blessed life through a humble obedience to His Word. This is where Man is the guiltiest, putting his personal desires (read self satisfaction,greed,ego-sinful nature) above Gods.
What we see today in the news is verification of what has been prophsised for the past 4000 years; for the reasons stated above , and in some of the other posts. Understanding this can only begin with spirit filled teaching of the word and the individual surrendering all to God to follow Christ DAILY. Then, through the individual evangalism and teaching of others can the News change. The next big headline that will put reality into perspective will be: Millons of People Vanish from Earth!

A couple of Observations
To Birdman:

The New Testament imagery concerning what we are as believers includes such things as living stones in a house built for the Lord. (The matrix holding the stones together is commitment and Christian love.) It includes that we are vitally connected parts in a Body, with Jesus Christ, the head, working through the interconnected Body of Christ, not individual micropieces which have "left the church. Chack out John 17:20-23 and I Corinthians Chapters 1 and 3. Find a church fellowhsip that is preaching the Gospel, however imperfect they may be, and submit yourself to the rigors of commited Body life.

To 2centsworth:

From Acts 2 and onward, the pattern of church life is BOTH the intimacy and accountability of the small group in homes AND the congregation of the Church in the city. Right there (Acts 2:46) this pattern is set, within the life of the healthy Church, and it stays discernable all the way through the epistles. The balanced Christian life includes being vitally a part of both, as we challenge and encourage one another in the Home Fellowship and partake of large scale worship and fresh excellent preaching of the Word in the congregational setting.

Both/and rather than either/or is the key here; and as for dropping out entirely, and still claiming to be a genuine Christian; you have to directly violate too many clear New Testment directives for that to fly. Genuine Church life is hard. We have to die to self and be clohed daily in the Lord's own strength, to make it work.




Sorry about the typos
I hate the typos. My phone rings constantly and people are in and out of this office constantly too. I have been spoiled by spell check...

Mega Church Problem
Most of these churches are not producing conservative evangelical activists. They're producing live and let live humanists. These humanists are just as likely to vote for biblically evil candidates as not. Therefore they cancel each other out. Its as if they don't exist politically.

So America is turned over to the perverts. Watch as our prosperity disappears.

Still a few great churchs
We travel across the US working & have always found a place to worship & hear the Word of God preached, unashamedly from the pulpit. God promised that there would always be a "remnant" of His own, even to the end. We have attended the "mega church" & the smaller church which has more emphasis on worship of God & not on entertaining the people, emphasis on using the Word as a sword which cuts right to the rotten part of our beings, so we can begin to heal from sin. I prefer the smaller church's message, it has more "meat" & less "milk". I think it is a matter of spiritual growth. If one is an immature Christian, the "milk" is preferable, if mature, then the "meat" is more palatable.

Christ Is Still On The Throne
I see nothing wrong with a building to worship in. The early church had no choice.
They were under persecution and it was the most practical way to meet.
I am not one for extravagance, but clean and attractive is suitable.
I prefer a church no larger than 200-300.
Churches with less than 25-30 tithing families are going to find it hard to have a full time pastor. If you have a church mortgage, you are looking at more like 40-50. Without a full time pastor the church is going to suffer. You will burn a pastor out if you expect them to work a full time job and pastor as well. You can not possibility get the spiritual growth that you need.


The church has rarely been victorious without persecution.
But have no fear; I believe that all the spiritual needs of the church will be met before long.

With new hate crime legislation to attack the church with, tax exemption being removed, pastors jailed, laws suits bankrupting the church, you will soon see the true church separated from the apostate church and they will be meeting in homes.

Those who will stand firm will see the power of God that has been longed for and you will see souls saved.

The end is not far off unless God chooses to do something miraculous and bring an end to the status quo.

The only reason that this nation is scoffing at the church is because the salt has lost it savor, and is being trodden under the foot of man.

Defense of the Doctrine of the Trinity
Because of word count limitations, my post will not fit in the space Townhall allows here. As a result, I had to create my own blog - True Christianity. See my response in Defense of the Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity there.

God likes hate?
foxfire22: "With new hate crime legislation to attack the church with, ... laws suits bankrupting the church, you will soon see the true church separated from the apostate church and they will be meeting in homes."

So taxpaying, law-abiding homosexuals shouldn't be protected from discrimination but pedophiles in the church should be protected from legal action?

Selfishness
This may be a little off the track but I believe that the women's movement has also contributed to the selfishness and rudeness of young people today. It is no longer unacceptable to swear in front of women, even women as old as your grandmother. Get on the bus or subway and it's everyone for themselves -- and since young men move faster they are more likely to get seats and leave women standing.

A friend told me about inviting a group of her college-age daughter's friends for a get-together. While she (over 50) ran up and downstairs getting food and things for their comfort and entertainment, not one young man (or woman) offered to help her carry anything. This was a gathering of committed, church-going Christians (and not members of mega-churches, btw).

On another occasion, she asked a young woman if her husband could come help me carry some heavy baggage to my car, and she responded, "What would he want to do THAT for?" (To the young couple's credit, she DID ask, and he DID help).

Is it that such gestures are no longer part of bringing up children today?

christianity
Part of the problem is that too many today don't want to be told they have shortcomings. They don't want to think that they sin and could be lost if they don't change.
Christians are rediculed for their beliefs, they can't voice their beliefs in schools, and God is being removed from everything.
Except for Islam. They demand, and they receive what they want.
Today, for the first time in history, our House of Representatives voted for a resolution honoring Ramadan, and commending Muslims for their faith. Where is the honoring for Christmas, or Easter? It's not only NOT being honored, but is being removed from public display.

I left long ago
I stopped attending church services long ago when church choirs replaced The Rock of Ages with "Christian" Rock and Roll.

I lost all faith in churches when they took up the cause of the illegal alien invaders destroying my homeland -- all for the sake of more butts in the pews and more donations in the collection plates.

I grew angry with the churches when they promoted the election of faux-Christian, George W. Bush, as a virtual "second comming" of our Lord.

While I am still a believer, I am not a believer in the churchs -- not a single solitary one of them, they have become corrupt.

And, FYI, when American Christians failed to protect the Thanksgiving Child and allowed him to be sent back to that hell-hole in Cuba, our Lord removed his protection from our land and sent the Bin Ladins of the world to chastise us. The Thanksgiving Child was saved and sent to us as a test and we failed miserably.

TO: Pastor E, Cam, Tertius

Pastor E

You said in reference to my post, "It includes that we are vitally connected parts in a Body, with Jesus Christ, the head, working through the interconnected Body of Christ, not individual micropieces which have "left the church."


If you go back to my post you will see that I said, "I left organized religion…" I never claimed to have left the 'Church'. 'Organized religion' is not the same as the 'Church'. There is a huge difference between the two; they are not the same.

For the record, I do believe that it is 'organized religion' that has left the 'Church'. Therefore, anyone who sees this as a problem is justified in walking away from 'organized religion'. After all, in the Revelation, Jesus calls to His Church to come out of her, meaning Babylon, the apostate religious system.





Cam

You quote foxfire22 then make a conclusion:
>>>
foxfire22: "With new hate crime legislation to attack the church with, ... laws suits bankrupting the church, you will soon see the true church separated from the apostate church and they will be meeting in homes."

So taxpaying, law-abiding homosexuals shouldn't be protected from discrimination but pedophiles in the church should be protected from legal action?
>>>

Huh?????

How did you arrive at your conclusion based on foxfire22's post?





Tertius

I was chomping at the bit all day waiting to get home to do the same. No need to now.

Your Defense of the Doctrine of the Trinity was outstanding.

I would only like to add a reference to the Great Commission given to the Church by Jesus Himself, "...make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matt 28:19).

It would seem that Jesus believed in the doctrine of the trinity.

Judging by the posts,
the Churches are not even meeting the needs of Christians let alone reaching the lost.

Something is wrong in the Churches.

Churches
The church is an individual body of believers who are personally accountable to God for their place in His will. Those individuals gather into a community for Bible study, prayer and fellowship. This can be accomplished in a house. Many a village church in Alaska has its services in a house. If you can reach those you need to reach from a house, good for you. However, most often the house will not accomplish the task of evangelizing. Why? Well,because you're limited by the size of the house and by people's sense of privacy. We have a cell group that meets at a friend's house and you would be surprised how hard it is to get some people to come to the house who will readily come to the church and the cell group got to a certain size and then had to divide to grow further. That's fine for house churches to do except that effective ministry usually requires groups of people and when you limit the growth size of your groups, you limit the ministry potential of said group. Ministry is the heart of worship, according to the Bible.

This is why it has long been acknowledged that churches of between 100 and 300 members are an opimal size. They are large enough to conduct effective ministry, but small enough so everyone can get to know one another fairly intimately. When you start getting larger than that, it is quite easy to get lost in the shuffle and to lose the vital thread of accountability.

The concerning thing about the megachurch trend is that people are moving into congregations where they can easily avoid accountability while at the same time also avoid ministry. Although the New Testament congregations centered around what we would call worship and Bible study, those were always springboards for ministry. I don't think God will be terribly pleased to discover that we've traded evangelism and discipleship for a great sound system.

Birdman
I would say it is NOT the churches that have a problem, so much as the individual believers who inhabit the churches. They are a reflection of us. If I individually don't seek to please God by doing the work He has given me to do, then I am individually responsible for not showing people the Way to salvation. If enough unmotivated individuals inhabit a church, the ministry efforts of the church become ineffective. Thus people are not brought to Christ because we do not seek to bring them.

Remember, we all stand before Christ as individuals. Our communities are reflections of what is important to us individually. At least in congregational circles such as I fly in, we can't blame it on the institution!

Cam Asks; Does God Like Hate?
Cam writes: Friday, October, 05, 2007 2:33 PM
God likes hate?
foxfire22: "With new hate crime legislation to attack the church with, ... laws suits bankrupting the church, you will soon see the true church separated from the apostate church and they will be meeting in homes."

So taxpaying, law-abiding homosexuals shouldn't be protected from discrimination but pedophiles in the church should be protected from legal action?


Foxfire:

You have a legitimate criticism.

As I have often said and still stand behind my previous posts on TH

Christianity is based on faith in the God of all creation. The Bible is His revelation to man. Christians who are serious about serving God also take what He says literally.

God states in His word that homosexuality among many other things are not natural.
God created sexuality. It was not created merely for the purpose of procreation only.
It is a tremendous drive within living things. God made it that way.

The practice of sex outside of the bounds that God set is considered sin.

That goes for sex with members of your own family, sex with someone you are not married to, sex with someone who is married who is not your wife or husband, sex with the same sex, whether male or female, sex with animals.
Nature itself teaches us that sex with children is unnatural.

CONTINUED

Cam Asks; Does God Like Hate?
There are many, many things that are considered sin.

People commit sins (practice that which is not lawful in the sight of God) because of the original sin of Adam and Evil. It’s called the sin nature.
It’s because they have been separated from the life of God.

The Christian believes and the Bible teaches that God does not desire that any should perish and has provided a plan of redemption for mankind.

That redemption is available to any and all through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

If you reject this gift, you will face God without hope of forgiveness. You will be judged and found guilty.

Most people think that the Bible teaches that personal sins are what send a person to hell. It’s actually a spirit that is alienated from the life of God.
That changes only through the new birth.

Two answer your original comment.

I know that a gay person has a difficult time because of this particular practice.

I understand that if you don’t believe the Bible that it is natural to seek means to justify the practice.

Christians do not have a Biblical right to abuse you for practice of homosexuality.
The penalties instituted under Old Testament Law were performed in accordance with God’s command for that particular people and time.

While the Law is still valid to point out sin, we do not stone people for adultery.

Just as some keep pointing out the abuse of slaves in America.
God never commanded nor does the Bible condone the abuse of another human being.

CONTINUED

Cam Asks; Does God Like Hate?

That brings us to hate crime legislation.

We don’t need hate legislation. If someone abuses you physically then you should have recourse. I would be abused emotionally almost every time I posted if I took it to heart.

Kight of baawa does his share of bigoted posting. His attitude toward Christians sounds just as hateful as Christian’s comments toward gays.
That happens to be legal under the Constitution.
The whole thing about Christian becoming so vocal about the gay issue immerged when gays stated pushing gay marriage, introducing homosexuality into the public school system.

Except for rare cases, all that Christians have been doing is verbally denouncing homosexuality.

Pushing for an amendment against gay marriage can hardly be termed persecution.
Gays have sex with each other as often and freely as they ever did.
I have not heard of one arrest, imprisonment or any other abuse of a homosexual.
Gays have equal rights under the laws, and any right that has been denied them outside of the institution of marriage will probably be granted.

Gays need to quit laying at the feet of the Christian fundamentalists every beating and killing of a gay. It just ain’t happening.

The reason that gays want hate crime legislation is for the purpose of silencing the Church vocally.

Gays don’t want to be made to feel uncomfortable about homosexuality.
I sorry if you feel uncomfortable, I feel uncomfortable every time my sin is pointed out.

Gays and humanists supporting gays keep bringing up the atrocities of the church in history. Well, that is totally irrelevant and proves nothing except the depravity of man.

The Spanish Inquisition was carried out by religion. Christ was put to death by religion.
What does that prove beyond the depravity of man?

CONTINUED

Cam Asks; Does God Like Hate?

No where in the Bible are such atrocities advocated.

Christian who are obedient to God choose to do no more than warn mankind of coming judgment and the means to flee it.

If you choose not to believe it that is your God given right.

Why do you fault Christians from being obedient to God’s call to evangelize?

Sin is what Christ died for, should I not herald repentance from sin and faith in God.

The Bible is not expressing hate toward gays anymore than it expresses hate toward those who do not love the Lord with all there heart.

If Christians are abusing you through violence I would be the first to throw them in jail.
If they are telling you that homosexuality is unnatural, that the practice is sin, then you have a problem with the First Amendment. Freedom of religion gives the right to practice my faith in a peaceful manner.

Laws that stop me from expressing my faith are unconstitutional.

If you want to put me in prison for 10 years for saying what I have said here then we have truly lost our freedoms in this nation.

Neither I nor any other true Christians has expressed hate toward gays.

To disapprove of your conduct is not hate.
I have never said that you have to believe what I say, that’s your choice.

aurorawatcher
aurorawatcher writes: Friday, October, 05, 2007 9:09 PM
Birdman
I would say it is NOT the churches that have a problem, so much as the individual believers who inhabit the churches. They are a reflection of us. If I individually don't seek to please God by doing the work He has given me to do, then I am individually responsible for not showing people the Way to salvation. If enough unmotivated individuals inhabit a church, the ministry efforts of the church become ineffective. Thus people are not brought to Christ because we do not seek to bring them.

Remember, we all stand before Christ as individuals. Our communities are reflections of what is important to us individually. At least in congregational circles such as I fly in, we can't blame it on the institution!

Foxfire:

I agreed

Unfortunately the Church today has enough of the world in it to get it in real trouble with the world.

What you are seeing is the salt being trodden under the foot of man.



aurorawatcher
aurorawatcher writes: Friday, October, 05, 2007 9:00 PM
Churches
The church is an individual body of believers who are personally accountable to God for their place in His will. Those individuals gather into a community for Bible study, prayer and fellowship. This can be accomplished in a house. Many a village church in Alaska has its services in a house. If you can reach those you need to reach from a house, good for you. However, most often the house will not accomplish the task of evangelizing. Why? Well,because you're limited by the size of the house and by people's sense of privacy. We have a cell group that meets at a friend's house and you would be surprised how hard it is to get some people to come to the house who will readily come to the church and the cell group got to a certain size and then had to divide to grow further. That's fine for house churches to do except that effective ministry usually requires groups of people and when you limit the growth size of your groups, you limit the ministry potential of said group. Ministry is the heart of worship, according to the Bible.

This is why it has long been acknowledged that churches of between 100 and 300 members are an optimal size.

Foxfire:

I agree with your whole post, but I had to cut some out to meet the 2000 char.

I do see many benefits to what you say.
The job of evangelism is not the pastor, deacons, and a small handful of church members job.

I personally prefer small church bodies.
Some of the sweetest fellowship and most spiritual atmosphere where experienced in small groups.
The problem is; someone is going to have to except responsibility to lead, minister to, etc.
That takes a lot of time and sacrifice. I’ve been there, done that.
Working and pasturing can destroy your family if you aren’t very careful.

That’s one of the reasons that Paul reached the place where he had to draw the line.

DEFINE "CHURCH"
It's ironic that everyone agrees that "church" does not mean the physical building where believers meet, but so many nonetheless count on a structure/hierarchy/group/institution to do things that only God (expressed thru Father, Son and Spirit) can do.

I would encourage everyone who is distressed about the state of the "church"--i.e., formal groupings of people who meet every Sunday with rituals and customs-- to take a step back. Why this fear and frustration? It's because we have come to rely on a man-made structure (whether that be mega-churches or community churches or even home churches) to lead and guide us rather than Jesus. Isn't that what Jesus said was most important, to abide in him? And yet we have come to rely on preachers, conferences, books, tape series and groups for our spiritual well-being. These things can be good, but we first and foremost need to be fed and have a relationship with him. "Church" happens as a result of that relationship as he brings us into fellowship with others on the same journey. And that fellowship is by nature Christ-centered and free of the demands and manipulation that is inherent in a formal, group structure. The reason that American churchianity is failing is two-fold: first, it has always been a system/structure that depended upon a faulty view of the kingdom of God, and, two, the Spirit is waking up increasing numbers of believers to return to Jesus as the true source of life, rendering the systemic version of christianity as routine and lifeless.

TS Alfabet
TS Alfabet writes: Saturday, October, 06, 2007 10:05 AM
DEFINE "CHURCH"
It's ironic that everyone agrees that "church" does not mean the physical building where believers meet, but so many nonetheless count on a structure/hierarchy/group/institution to do things that only God (expressed thru Father, Son and Spirit) can do.

I would encourage everyone who is distressed about the state of the "church"--i.e., formal groupings of people who meet every Sunday with rituals and customs-- to take a step back. Why this fear and frustration? It's because we have come to rely on a man-made structure (whether that be mega-churches or community churches or even home churches) to lead and guide us rather than Jesus. Isn't that what Jesus said was most important, to abide in him? And yet we have come to rely on preachers, conferences, books, tape series and groups for our spiritual well-being. These things can be good, but we first and foremost need to be fed and have a relationship with him. "Church" happens as a result of that relationship as he brings us into fellowship with others on the same journey. And that fellowship is by nature Christ-centered and free of the demands and manipulation that is inherent in a formal, group structure.

Foxfire:

The Church has rarely been effective without persecution.
Israel saw the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, and still rebelled.
There are Christians who live as you suggest, but few if any in America.

We would like to think that because some are charismatic that they have it, but that’s just not true.
Christians in America have too much of the world in them to be effective.
Christianity has become a ritual, that’s why atheists question His existence.
No one likes to suffer, but suffering is part of the call.

Whose depravity? (Part 1)
Foxfire22 avers that there are no atrocities in the Bible. He believes that atrocities committed in the name of religion prove nothing other than the depravity of mankind. I beg to differ. Below and in the following post are three examples of what can only be called genocides, brought about directly or indirectly by God himself:

Genesis, chapters 6 to 8: God was concerned about the level of violence and other evil behavior among humans. He "was sorry that He had made man on the earth..." God decided that the solution lay in more violence: He decided to destroy almost the entire human race. Only Noah, his three sons and their four wives survived by building an ark to ride out the flood. The rest of the human race -- elderly, men, women [many of whom would have been pregnant--so much for the sanctity of the unborn], youth, children, infants and newborns -- and the land animals and birds were said to have drowned. The Schofield Bible dates the flood as happening in 2349 BCE. This was the largest and most thorough act of genocide in history. Many Jews and Christians are undecided, of course, about whether it actually happened, or whether it is a religious myth derived from Babylonian sources.

Exodus, chapters 11 & 12: God first hardened the heart of the Pharaoh of Egypt so that he would refuse the request by his Hebrew slaves for permission to leave Egypt. Then, God sent a series of plagues to torment all the inhabitants of Egypt. Finally, God sent an angel to kill all of the first-born in the country -- both human and animal -- including the old, middle-aged, young, and newborns. The only exceptions were those Hebrews who had taken special precautions by ritually slaughtering a lamb and spreading its blood over the doorways of their homes. This genocide was the final act that convinced the Pharaoh to release the Hebrews. Schofield dates the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt at 1491 BCE.

(Continued)

Whose depravity? (Part 2)
Deuteronomy, chapters 7 & 20 and Joshua, chapters 6, 8, 10, 11, 14, etc.: After wandering in the desert for four decades, the Hebrews were ordered by God to invade the "promised land" and totally exterminate "the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites", leaving "alive nothing that breathes." They were to fight and kill the soldiers of these groups, and then murder the defenseless elderly, women [again, many of these would have been pregnant--again, so much for the sanctity of the unborn], youths, children, infants, and newborns. The book of Joshua records the progress of the genocide, city by city:
Joshua 8:24 - City of Ai
Joshua 10:26 - Joshua murdered five
defenseless kings of the Amorites in
cold blood.
Joshua 10:28 - City of Makkedah
Joshua 10:29 - City of Libnah
Joshua 10:31 - City of Lachish
Joshua 10:33 - City of Gezer "...Joshua
smote him and his people until he had
left him none remaining."
Joshua 10:34 - City of Elgon "They left
none remaining."
Joshua 10:37 - City of Hebron
Joshua 10:38 - City of Debir

(Continued)

Whose depravity? (Part 3)
The point seems clear enough: God has no qualms whatsoever about causing the deaths of multitudes when it suits His purposes.

Perhaps, you say, this God of the Old Testament is not your God of the New Testament, that your God has either changed His ways or is some other God altogether. If so, then why is it that so many so-called Christians insist on the unity and inerrancy of the entire Bible? Why is it that so many so-called Christians seem to be looking forward so eagerly to The End Of The World As We Know It, as predicted in the book of Revelation. Interpreted literally, this book predicts that a massive genocide will occur at some time in our future, in association with the war of Armageddon. If it were to happen in the near future, on the order of two billion people will die [yet again, many of whom will be pregnant women--yet again, so much for the sanctity of the unborn].

In his column Bob Burney states that for centuries the cry of the church was "come die with us." Precisely. Or almost: far too often the cry of the church was "come taste our steel and feel our fire, heretic!" It really isn't hard to figure out how mankind learned to savor the joys of the massacre--like Father, like son.

Daddyhill
Do you feel better now that you got that off your chest.

Sleep well.

Daddyhill
So you have a search engine. Congratulations. And, you know a big word - genocide. Wow, I'm impressed.

The problem with this is that your search engine doesn't explain the happenings in Exodus and Joshua. Let's start with the fact that the Hebrews had suffered under centuries of slavery by the Pharaohs and just a few decades before Moses stood before Ramses II and said "Let my people go", Ramses' predecessor had ordered the death of all of the male Hebrew children under two years of age and required the midwives to smother any male Hebrew babies at birth. Ramses' hands were already covered in blood. His people were far from innocent. The Hebrews were an unarmed enslaved workforce. I suppose you could accuse God of genocide, but that's usually ascribed to humans Whether you agree or not, God is the Creator of mankind and therefore has the right to give life or take it away. Regardless, those who died in the Passover had plenty of innocent blood for which to atone.

foxfire
Mostly I agree with you, but you should check out what the Holy Spirit had to say to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, particularly to the church at Sardis. They were a dead church, though they looked very active from the outside. Jesus told the remnant of the faithful that remained among the spiritual zombies to "wake up", repent, and pull together to re-ignite their church. Don't count the modern church out. There may be indivudal enclaves of zombiness out there, but there's still probably even a few Christians alive in those churches and there are still congregations where the gospel is preached and people accept the challenge from the Holy Spirit. As a universal institution (which we were never meant to be, according to the Biblical pattern), we may very well be in big trouble, but God doesn't work through world-wide institutions. He works through individuals and those individuals work best in small communities. There are still some awake and there are more waking up. We may very well face a new Great Awakening in our lifetime -- if we individual Christians sincerely decide to obey God.

aurorawatcher
Thanks,
I couldn't bring myself to answer this kind of foolish accusation again.

aurorawatcher
aurorawatcher writes: Sunday, October, 07, 2007 12:55 AM
foxfire
Mostly I agree with you, but you should check out what the Holy Spirit had to say to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, particularly to the church at Sardis. They were a dead church, though they looked very active from the outside. Jesus told the remnant of the faithful that remained among the spiritual zombies to "wake up", repent, and pull together to re-ignite their church. Don't count the modern church out. There may be indivudal enclaves of zombiness out there, but there's still probably even a few Christians alive in those churches and there are still congregations where the gospel is preached and people accept the challenge from the Holy Spirit. As a universal institution (which we were never meant to be, according to the Biblical pattern), we may very well be in big trouble, but God doesn't work through world-wide institutions. He works through individuals and those individuals work best in small communities. There are still some awake and there are more waking up. We may very well face a new Great Awakening in our lifetime -- if we individual Christians sincerely decide to obey God

Foxfire:

Agreed!

Notice that I said that there are remnants of every church in this age.
I am certain that Christ will find faith.
I don’t have any plans on quitting, sounds like you are in it for the long haul.
I’m sure that there are many more.

We have a tendency to view Christianity from the stand point of what we see here in America, or even in our community.

Believe me, when persecution comes you will see who is real and who is not.

I really do love small congregations. My church runs 100 or a little more.
The pastor is a Bible preacher. You’ll hear the gospel every Sunday.
No excuse for leaving there lost.

Be faithful my brother.

Aurorawatcher:
Aurorawatcher:

"I would say it is NOT the churches that have a problem, so much as the individual believers who inhabit the churches."


Birdman: I would have to agree with you except I would use the 'Church' implying that there is only one, as opposed to your use of 'Churches' implying there are many. Jesus even said, "…on this rock I will build my church…" (Matt 16:18) meaning one not many.

Denominationalism is part of the organized religion problem.

BIRDMAN
Denominationalism is part of the organized religion problem.

Foxfire:


Denominationalism is part of the organized religion problem.

Foxfire:

I have to agree!

I helped bring 5 independent churches together many years ago.

I couldn't believe that within the same denomination that you could have such divisiveness.
They were like rivals.

foxfire22: "They were like rivals."

And if they are like "rivals" can they be in unity with Jesus as Jesus is in unity with the Father? At best, only one can be in unity with Jesus; but more likely is the fact that NONE are truly in unity with Him.

Earlier, Pastor E challenged that I was an individual "micropiece" and not a "living stone" as part of a greater unit. Apparently, he thinks that he is on the right page and I am not. But what evidence should I examine to verify? Should I truth the Pastor's words or should look at Scripture?

According to Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians (Chapter 4), he teaches that the evangelists, the preachers, apostles, and the pastor-teachers are to train the people to do the work. Yet I would wager that Pastor E never permits one of the 'people' preach a sermon at 'his' pulpit. I would further wager that no 'layman' would be allowed to baptize a new believer in 'his' church. After all, isn’t the pastor being paid to do these things for the church?

But aren't these part of the work that Jesus instructed His church to perform?

So, why is it that the pastor does them to the exclusion of the rest of the church?

This question exposes another problem of 'organized religion', a 2 fold problem. 1) First is the concept of a clergy separated from the lay people. 2) And second is the concept that the clergy is 'hired' to perform the tasks given to the church (this amounts to simony).

The result of these concepts is that the people do not actively participate but only passively observe others worshipping.

If the pastor was to teach the people to do the work, he would become just another member (no separation there) doing the work and he would jeopardize his 'rice bowl' (he would not be needed or hired).

Therefore, the pastor would actively seek to keep the people from growing fully into the Lord; and from doing what he (the pastor) was being paid to do. In effect, the pastor would be weakening the church.

BIRDMAN

I tend to agree with you.

When I read what he said, I found hard to understand, but then, I can be dense sometimes.

The churches that I was talking about were in the bible belt 50 miles from Geenville,SC

They were good people, but very legalistic. The churches just didn’t fellowship with one another. They all preached the same thing, but had different ideas on living it.

I agree with your assessment of Ephesians.
God gives every believer at least one spiritual gift. He expects them to exercise it for the edification of the body.

There are differences of opinion of whether God calls preachers or they just have been given gifts that make them good candidates for a pastor.

In other words, Paul said to Timothy, if a man DESIRES the office of a bishop.
It doesn’t really make a difference.

You’re right about the Lord setting certain individuals in the body for its perfection.
Ephesians makes it crystal clear that there is one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, one baptism.
Just as there is one way to heaven, one gospel.
God’s intent is that the Church takes on the appearance of Jesus Christ himself.

With a body that is still influenced by the sin nature, that’s a tall order.

If your church is anything like mine or the average church, you couldn’t find 5 out of a hundred that truly sought the filing of the Spirit, or even recognized there spiritual gift.

I’m not charismatic, so I’m not talking about the sign gifts.

Christians lack the power of Pentecost because they are not will to meet the condition.
Excellent chapters to give you a feel for what requirements are needed are in John 14 thru 17. The real Lords prayer guarantees us power. We are the branches, He is the vine, without Him, we can do nothing.

CONTINUED

BIRDMAN
I have found that if you really want power with God, the kind of power that sees souls saved and lives changed. The kind of power that stops the mouth of scoffers, you will have to pay the price of absolute obedience.

That’s extremely hard in our society.
There’s far too much to distract us.

Most of us find it hard to share God beyond the church door, because we are afraid that our testimony can’t stand the scrutiny.

We can get on the internet and talk about God because it is safe.

I am the chief of sinners, may God deliver us from it.

The key is in John 14 thru 17.
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