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Monday, October 27, 2008
Bob Barr :: Townhall.com Columnist
Republicans Accuse Democrats of “Socialism,” but Republican Bailouts-Without-End are as Big Government as it Gets
by Bob Barr
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Sen. John McCain accuses Sen. Barack Obama of being a “socialist,” but it is President George W. Bush, supported by Sen. McCain, who has done the most to socialize the U.S. economy. Courtesy of the Republican Party, the federal government is set to own a sizeable chunk of the housing, auto, banking and insurance industries, as well as pieces of individual companies lining up to sell securities to Washington. Even individual homes, with Uncle Sam preparing to become the mortgage guarantor of last resort, are the targets of nationalization.

What will be left for the next president to socialize?

The Republican Party once campaigned against irresponsible federal spending and government red ink. Then George W. Bush became president. With a Republican Congress, he turned a budget surplus into a half trillion dollar deficit, added trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities with creation of the Medicare drug benefit, and expanded virtually every federal program, domestic as well as foreign.

How is this different from what the Democratic Party has been promising to do for years?

Only after the Democrats retook control of Congress did President Bush suddenly become concerned about fiscal responsibility. But that lasted only until the subprime mortgage crisis enveloped Washington. Taking its cue from Democratic tax and spend policies of the past, the administration then opened the Treasury doors to all comers.

So far, the Bush administration, Congress, and Federal Reserve have provided more than $2 trillion in bailouts. Congress got the ball rolling, with an assist from the administration, with a $300 billion bailout of the housing industry. The president even agreed to a multi-million dollar taxpayer pay-off to the left-wing activist group ACORN to grease the legislative wheels.

Then Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson abandoned his contrary assurances and nationalized Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac at a cost of $200 billion, though the price could go higher. Bailouts began sprouting like mushrooms after a heavy rain—$29 billion to cover Bear Stearns, hundreds of billions of dollars from the Federal Reserve to banks and investment banks, as well as to buy mortgage-backed securities, $85 billion to nationalize the big insurer AIG, followed by another $38 billion for AIG and $25 billion more in loans to the auto industry.

Then there was the grand pay-off to Wall Street. Secretary Paulson came up with the wholly arbitrary $700 billion bailout—his aides admitted that he just wanted a really big number. And the administration accepted an extra $150 billion in pork and special tax breaks to win over reluctant congressmen. The purpose, we were told, was to clear “toxic” paper off of corporate balance sheets.

It turns out this was nothing more than another Bush Administration bait-and-switch.

Now the $700 billion is being used to buy up the U.S. economy. First, the administration decided to “invest” in big banks, whether they wanted it or not. The Bush administration put pressure on even sound institutions and argued that bankers must accept Republican socialism as a matter of patriotism. Who knows when, if ever, the government will sell off its stake in America’s financial system.

Then the administration suggested a new $40 billion homeowners program. The federal government is going to start guaranteeing individual mortgages. A lender who makes a bad loan will be assured of repayment so long as he cuts the interest rate or principal. A homeowner who should never have bought the house will get bailed-out by responsible homeowners and renters.

But the administration isn’t finished. On Friday, October 24, the Treasury Department announced that it was going to buy ownership stakes in major insurance companies. After all, the insurers are in trouble too. So The Hartford, MetLife, and Prudential already are in line for a government hand-out.

Now the Financial Services Roundtable has asked the Treasury Department to buy into securities dealers, auto manufacturers, and even U.S. subsidiaries of foreign companies. After all, they “play a vital role in the U.S. economy,” explained the Roundtable. By that criterion, what industry or company doesn’t qualify for a bail-out?

Is Sen. Obama “socialist?” Yes, he wants to “spread the wealth,” as he puts it. But that’s what the Republicans have been doing for the last eight years. We already have "big government," "socialism," or whatever else you want to call it—and it was Republicans who gave it to us.

Even if he was elected, Sen. McCain would continue to this drive to bigger and bigger government: He has proposed that the federal government spend $300 billion to buy every bad mortgage in America. But, he isn’t going to win.

The real alternative this election is Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party. Only a vote for Bob Barr will tell Washington that there are Americans who don’t want socialism, whether from the Democrats or the Republicans. Only Bob Barr represents real change in Washington.

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About The Author
Bob Barr is the 2008 Libertarian nominee for President of the United States.
 
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Go Bob Barr
Bailouts of GSEs are socialist and bailouts of corporations are just as bad.

No more John McCain socialism. No more Barack Obama socialism.

I'm voting for Bob Barr.

Thanks Townhall
For including Bob Barr.

The only difference between...
...Republican socialists and Democrat socialists is that the Big-Government Republicans make small-government noises while promoting big-government policies.

Outstanding article!
Well done Bob Barr. You have my vote!

Everyone:

McCain CAN'T win. In fact, the GOP is just another third party this year. So, why waste your vote on big government when you have a chance to make a stand for the limited government championed by the Founding Fathers and Ronald Reagan?!?!? Be a conservative -- vote for Bob Barr.

http://www.bobbarr2008.com

Barr asked
"What will be left for the next president to socialize?"

If Obama is elected, it will be medicine.

If McCain is elected, it will be his corporate buddies while he expands McCain-Feingold to deprive even more people of their rights.

The only difference between Obama and McCain is who will get MY money.

Both of them can go to Ach-Eee-Double-Toothpicks.

The world won't end if Obama wins!
Even worse than an Obama win is a GOP that won't stand for limited government and individual liberty. We can eventually clean up any social programs Obama passes IF WE HAVE THE POLITICAL WILL, but we conservatives can't achieve any of our goals if the GOP continues to be the other party of big government.

It's time for the GOP to stop talking about limited government and to start acting on it! Then they'll have earned our votes. If we give them votes they've not earned, we deserve what we get.

Agreed
As a fiscal conservative and a townhall reader I want to express my support for Barr. A vote for anyone else is a vote for big government.

Bailout was a decision.
Bailouts are not as yet part of the system?

I was going to vote for McCain
until he supported the bailout.

As a physician, Obama scares the hell out of me. However, McCain has proven so many times he can't be trusted and the bailout was the final straw for me.

If McCain is elected, I'll bet the new socialized healthcare plan will be called the McCain-Hillary Plan.

At least Barr is opposed to the bailout wants to keep government as small as possible.

Since McCain is going to lose anyway, I'll urge all of you to cast your vote for small government by voting for Bob Barr.


The lesser of evils
Left-wing big gov't and right-wing big gov't is still big gov't. Its possible to have a debate between Stalin and Hitler, but they were both horrible people.

Scott66
A vote for Barr is a vote for OBAMA.
Barr is not a conservative.
Conservatives believe in Morality based on Truth and Natural Laws and economics fall under Truth and Natural Laws.

Vote for Liberal A or Liberal B.
The idea that there is a difference between A or B is all a scam.

McCain will only loose without
Conservative support.
We will not recover as a nation from OBAMA.

Engineer
Get your butt off the sofa and make sure you have conservatives running for Senate and House. LOOSER! What a bunch of jamokes.

Socialist PIGS
Use their vote as a weapon to steal from their wealthy neighbors. You all are rationalizing and looking for goodies from the Government.

Here Come the "Scare Police"
Joycey (#11) - Doesn't it get old having to constantly scare people into voting against Obama?

Why don't you take a deep breath, look at yourself in the mirror, and ask yourself, "Am I voting FOR McCain's principles?" If the answer is "No", then I would suggest you take a hard look at the current-day Republicans. They have nothing to offer limited-government, fiscally-conservative Americans. Only Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party stand for the same principles as our Founding Fathers.

Repubicans have become the party of fear and Democrats the party of hate. Libertarians are the party of Liberty.
Fear, hate, Liberty...which do YOU support?
http://www.bobbarr2008.com

The GOP lost its way
Mr. Barr lays it all out, the Republicans lost any credibility on spending. McCain asks us to look at the shinny earmarks wich are drop in the bucket. We need someone with the courage to take on the issue of entitlements, they will crush us.

I will vote Bob Barr

Joycey
"A vote for Barr is a vote for OBAMA."

How's that? It won't be tallied as a vote for Obama. A vote for Barr is a vote for Barr. Nothing more. Besides, McCain can't win, so a vote for McCain is a vote for Obama as well, by that logic.

McCain has not earned my vote, so I won't cast it for him. If we keep voting for those who don't represent our beliefs, we'll keep getting candidates who don't represent our beliefs.

"Conservatives believe in Morality based on Truth and Natural Laws and economics fall under Truth and Natural Laws."

Sure, if you're a big government social con who wants government legislation for your personal beliefs -- especially if you now throw economics in the mix!

Most conservatives prefer limited government and individual freedom to moral behavior by government fiat. They push to eliminate laws that prevent the practice of traditional morality -- not for more laws that further limit freedom.

Joycey
"Engineer
Get your butt off the sofa and make sure you have conservatives running for Senate and House. LOOSER! What a bunch of jamokes."

I'm doing my part, and I'll vote for conservatives for the House and the Senate whenever one happens to run.

Also, it's spelled "LOSER". You sound like a loser when you misspell "loser".

Joycey
"McCain will only loose without
Conservative support. We will not recover as a nation from OBAMA."

Again, it's spelled L-O-S-E.

Surprised
I am surprised Townhall allowed Bob Barr to submit his opinion. The last attack on Ron Paul on this blog was so bad I didn't expect this. I think Barr is correct in his comparison. Kudos to townhall for allowing another point of view here.

Bob Barr On YouTube
Check out Bob Barr on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/BobBarr2008

He's had my vote since the LP convention.

It's Rush's Fault
I republicans have became socialists, than we shouldn't have a problem putting John Mc Cain in the White House.

I stand in amazement that's it's always the Republicans fault no matter who is in control.

It will be the Republicans fault with Obama and 60% in the Senate and House Democrats.

Why do these idiots make statements about leadership without understanding how congress functions. How is it that congress blocked Bush's appointment's, killed legislation, weakened bills, and added ear marks amounting to hundreds of billions with a Republican controlled congress.

Idiots! Propaganda!

A VOTE FOR BOB BARR???
BOB GET ON THE MCCAIN-PALIN TRAIN,WE CANT AFFORD B.HUSSEIN!

Amem!, Bob.
If it comes down to who are the biggest Socialists, it can be easily proven that the Republicans are the biggies.

BOB,? bob? dont drink the kool-aid!
get on the mccain palin train.

I am actually torn
I was a Ron Paul supporter. I could have stomached a vote for Huckabee or Romney, but I said "NO WAY" to McCain. Then I heard Obama speak and I thought "Oh no". I then saw the ACORN tactics and saw the destruction of Joe the Plumber. I also like Sarah Palin.
However, I am still torn on whether or not I can pull the lever for McCain. It just feels wrong and we have had the "lesser of two evils" for so long, maybe we need a good does of the greater of two evils to get ourselves in gear and take the country back.
I still can not believe the republicans allowed McCain to get the nomination. I think he has a good heart, but I can not forget his immigration bill!

Joycey
"Socialist PIGS use their vote as a weapon to steal from their wealthy neighbors."

Republicans did have the 'audacity' to increase farm subsidies from 2001-2007 to the princely sum of $34 billion a year.

We have ethanol mandates, sugar, cotton, soybean, wheat and many more agricultural handouts for the Midwest. These teat-suckers need to get their mouths off the nipples of the government sow. This is a Republican wealth-redistribution program from America's east and west coasts to America's heartland, with America's heartlands values.

Why would one believe that sugar should be subsidized, unless, of course, you are a dentist?

Why should cotton be subsidized, since most of it is exported, the number one importer of cotton is China? Who believes that Chinese manufacturing should be subsidized by the American taxpayer?

It takes a gallon of oil to make a gallon of ethanol. No more mandates! If an American farmer can't compete in the global marketplace, then they can always get a job at Walmart, as a 'greeter.'

DIAMOND Z
"BOB,? bob? drink the kool-aid!
get on the mccain palin train."

Fixed your post.

Changing The Colors
Legend tells us that if we change the colors we wear, our fortunes will also change. That is why a gambler who is on a lucky streak will not change his clothes. Changing clothes can also break a bad luck streak. The same is true in the presidential elections when a candidate of a different color is running on the platform of change. Most Americans are going through a period of bad luck in the stock market and in other spheres of life. A vote for Obama is a vote for a change of color and a change of bad luck. But for those that believe color and luck are not connected Obama has many inner talents that will produce the change you so desperately need. His roots are spread out which gives him the experience needed to be a leader of all people regardless of the color of their skin. So any way you look at it a vote for Obama is a change to a luck filled future.

Melvin
Please tell me you are kidding?
Here is a note for you - most gamblers lose money in the end!!!! They just keep playing "hoping" for their luck or big break. It doesn't happen, but by the time the realize it they are broke and humiliated.

So, I guess your gambler analogy is right on. We will be the typical gambler if we elect Obama, thinking we were "so close".

What will be left for the next Pres?
They'll nationalize our 401K's. I didn't vote for Obama or McCain - I voted for Chuck Baldwin of the constitution party. I would have voted for Bob Barr but I read some of his looney ideas about the war and he lost my vote, too.

McCain = Disaster / Obama = Death Wish!
Humpty Dumpty is broken ...beyond any hope to repair.

Bush = Socialism
McCain = More
Obama = Dictatorship/misery and poverty guaranteed.

Not much left to "socialize" anyway, tangible wealth production has moved offshore as our phone "free enterprise" has a hostile environment in America today.

Business environment in China, Brazil and India is friendlier now...

We saw this mess coming, sold our properties in 2004 and moved our farming operations to Brazil. In 2007 we sold out all shares in the US stock market and invested in irrigation and other farming equipment, in Brazil.
We are selling our farm products to 27 countries now and, when Obama gets elected, we will have another hungry market to feed over here...provided the dollar is still worth something.

The meltdown is interesting to watch, sitting in my comfy airconditioned, satellite communication equipped, combine.

Go ahead, vote for "The One", I don't care...you are the ones who are going to go hungry...

The stock markets around the world are dropping and crashing to a great extent with anticipation of a possible Obama win.

Anyhow, people have to eat, if they can pay for it.

Venezuela is a pretty good example of what's coming to USSA - shortages, price controls, no goods on the shelves...

PS
Every people have the Government they deserve!

stbmom...
I guess I'm just confused as to how much you actually know of the things you bring up, or if it's just the talking points on each issue?

You mention ACORN...but ACORN has had people found guilty of "voter registration fraud", NOT "voting fraud". The idiots were trying to get paid for not doing anything.

You mention "Joe the plumber", but I'm a small business owner myself and have gone over the plans extensively. Joe would actually benefit greater under Obama's plan. It's people that simply do not understand how company taxes are paid that believe Obama's plan is bad for small business. Period.

People freak out about "socialism" but forget that's supposedly what the "stimulus package" was, as well as the bailouts. But we're still not a socialist nation and we never will be.

Correction
Instead of "phone" please read PHONY. Sorry.

Egon
Today, John McCain, said, "It's not government's job to redistribute wealth, but to create it."

True, then vote Democrat. Under Bubba's reign the stock market tripled, mostly, because the sound "tax and spend" policies of the 90's was eventually going to bring the deficit to zero.

Under George Bush and the Republican Congress' 'reign of error' the deficit has more than doubled. The stock market has lost 20% due to the Republican mantra of cut taxes and spend even more.

Don't forget, the entire war in Iraq has been financed by sending IOU's to China, UAE, Japan, Singapore, Saudi Arabia to name a few. This is wealth-redistribution from Americans to foreigners, plain and simple. And you can thank the Republicans for this.

Barr's lifesaver
If Bob was drowning, he would insist the lifesaver used was not government issue, and we search for a private contractor lifeguard before trying to save his life.

Would that have excluded Ronald Reagan?

Some time ago an experiment was done
regarding the stock market.

10 monkeys picked 10 stocks. They did this by throwing feces at a board with 200 randomly placed stocks. Everytime a stock got hit with poo, that stock was bought and held for one month. At the end of the month the 10 stocks were then sold to see if they made a profit or loss. This was repeated over a years time.

At the same time, 10 stock brokers picked 10 seperate stocks. Same thing, at the end of the month they were sold to see if they made a profit or loss. Repeated over a year.

Evidently randomly thrown poo at a board does better than intelligent people trying to predict anything.

This year, instead of voting, let the monkeys vote. We could put pictures of Obama and McCain througout the nations zoos and let the poo slinging begin. Whoever ends up with more poo thrown at his head, gets the job.

It's either that or do like 16% of voters admit to doing. They flip a coin.


the past few years...
...really show why it is a bad idea to have the executive and legislative branches run by the same party!

Just imagine what kind of crap is going to pass if the dems hold both branches!

Here is a campaign slogan for ya:

"Vote McCain, because the Dems have the legislature"

Barr run on
Barr is running for president against the establishment he was apart of for years. Truth in some of his message does not make him the best man for the job. I would love to see the Republican Party have only conservative values, but neither does Barr's party. Recreational drug usage is not conservative, it involve more than small government. Personal responsibility and love of God and country.

Vote for Barr=Vote for Obama.
I hope all of you can live with it because you'll be doing it in silence. The First Amendment will be the first(among many) to go. Obama has as much as said he thinks the Constitution is outdated and must be reformed.

Vote for Obama and he, along with Pelosi/Reid will make sure this debate will never be allowed again. There will be no way to stop them from expanding their reign and suppressing all opposition.

You think the press is "liberal" NOW? Wait until the "Fairness" Doctrine is shoved down our throats.


Shoes
I know "you" are not questioning how much I know - really?
Secondly, sometimes it isn't about "doing better" its about right and wrong. Just because I might do better if a thug broke into my neighbors house and gave all the cash and jewerly to me doesn't mean I should be okay with it.
Our progressive tax structure is unfair - okay. But when someone touts even more "redistribution" as one of the reason for tax increases on a few - that is not fair to me. I don't care if I would do "better" under Obama, I don't like his plans.
And "voter fraud" and "registration fraud" are not that different in my eyes. I know voter fraud is illegal and the jury is out on registration fraud, but honestly that is to me no different than you saying "oh, Henry was convicted only of attempted rape, not rape. He isn't a rapist, he never raped anyone".
They still has a systemic problem with fraud and it wasn't just a few folks trying to get paid, it was hundred that results in hundreds of thousands of fradualent forms. That still isn't okay with me and the fact that Obama hasn't come out in full force against them speaks volumes to me of his character.
That is great that you own a small business - really. That is great that you feel you and Joe the Plummer with come out better under Obama and only some unknown evil rich person will be punished. That just isn't the way I want my government run.

I like Barr
I like Bob Barr and wish he had a chance to win.

I met him when he was running for congress the first time. He lost that one, but later won after running for another seat. Luckly I lived in Rome, Georgia when he was running and my vote helped him to win.

Good luck Bob... influence the process where you can... just realize that anyone who votes for you is also giving Obama a boost.

These hard choices suck... and I do not like McCain... but I dispise Biden and do not trust Obama.

Your Formula To Use On Nov. 5th
Bob, if Obama wins the election by a smaller percentage than you receive, you can do just like Perot did in 1992 and accept the full responsiblity for Obama winning. Sleep on that.

Darrel McRoberts

Patrick
"Recreational drug usage is not conservative"

True. However, isn't the solution to not use recreational drugs? Do you need government's help? I don't use recreational drugs. In fact, it's rare that I have a beer. I really didn't need the federal government's help to make my own decisions. William F. Buckley expressed his skepticism of this very eloquently and often.

Surely you can see that the War on Drugs has been a failure. Clearly the cure is far worse than the disease.

dsmack
"Bob, if Obama wins the election by a smaller percentage than you receive, you can do just like Perot did in 1992 and accept the full responsibility for Obama winning. Sleep on that."

Huh? If McSame loses, it will be because he was unable to earn more votes than Obama. Everyone casting a ballot knows McSame is also on the ballot. Just because the two major parties (and the GOP is in danger of losing its "major party" designation) want to own all the votes doesn't mean they do.

I hope Barr's vote total exceeds Obama's margin of victory (yes, it's over -- McSame can't win). Perhaps then the GOP will end its big government ways in an attempt to EARN our votes.

Also, the GOP is apparently satisfied with their current level of support. Freedom lovers worked hard to get the Internet poker prohibition support plank removed from the platform. The platform committee did just that, stating that they didn't wish to shut out potential voters. Well, the final committee restored it, and groups like Focus on the Family actually taunted us over it. So, if you all don't want my vote, please don't blame the candidate who ultimately receives it.

Patrick, you are wrong as to drug use!
It is a very conservative issue to be against the government intrusion into our personal lives. Drug use is a medical problem and should not be a criminal one. If all drugs were legal, regulated and taxed, our deficit would be gone in no time flat and we could afford to build treatment centers for those that want off of drugs. Our country is not against drugs, just the drugs that they can't control and make money off of. We need to stop funding criminals and terrorists by providing them with prohibition ad infinitum as it has been proven that prohibition doesn't work!

As to Bob Barr, he is just like Ross Perot and Ron Paul, 80% good ideas, 20% looney and not fit to be President. We have been dealt a bad hand with McCain, but it is so much worse if the Abomination wins that we have to vote for McCain because we will not survive even 2 years of the marxists rule. Biden was correct for the 2nd time in his life, if Obama wins, the world will test him with a crisis that he can't handle and we will be toast!

Pure madness.

Bob Barr is absolutely right.

But he's also dead right.

Bringing up "big government" objections when we're choking on a global credit crunch... is like withholding the Heimlich maneuver from a patient just because they don't like to chew thoroughly.

A little embarrasing.

Now if you Barroids could come up with enough votes to actually get to run our government... I'd be right there with you.

But you can't.

And as much as it has to stick in your collective craws, we live with a two-party structure and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

And unless you can gain executive power, enact legislation and appoint judges or supreme court justices, your voices will fall on deaf ears.

I, however, will continue remind everyone that it was the Democrats who removed the essential safeguards against sub-prime lending... which is the main reason we're in this mess.

And I for one, will cast my one lone pathetic vote... at least to cancel out the vote of some other misguided poor soul. But in the fervent hope that enough people will realize what's at stake... the drastic and largely irreversible unraveling of what has made our country great.

Now if all of you, for example, decided one day to descend on the GOP like locusts - for the express purpose of taking it over from within... now THAT would get everyone's attention, faster than you could say Bob Barr.

In the meanwhile... you're all free continue to vote your collective consciences.

But practically, your vote is for Obama.


Oh, please
Nice try, Barr, but Obama's illuminati extremists "out-socialist" any other political entity in America, except for the outright Communists, with whom he also has connections, for the record.

scottK
Very well said sir!

Nothing is sadder than an intelligent person doing an abjectly stupid thing for no good reason. And that's exactly what Bob Barr and anyone who votes for him is doing.


a VOTE FOR BOB IS A VOTE FOR LIBERTY
darrell,

just to let you know the same tired line "a vote for Barr is a vote for Obama." Both men are going in the same direction. McCain has not condemed the expansion of the Executive banch, he voted for the bail outs, he is not going to cut big spending and he will censor people. You ever heard of the terroist watch list. Innocent Americans are placed there on regular basis because the travel to much or voice their opinin. You can not trust either of the Jackenapes.

Darrell its simple, "Bob Barr earned my vote." McCain did not. McCain is trying to play the victim to win and that more destiable than Obama. We know what to expect from Obama... McCain only God knows, he is hot headed and is saying what ever he needs to be elected. Barr is not perfect but he is a hex of a lot better than McBama.

zapdoodat
Republicans did have the 'audacity' to increase farm subsidies from 2001-2007 to the princely sum of $34 billion a year.


Response:

I will not defend the run away spending of the Bush administration, but I will defend that it was not all Republican's that created our spending problems.

The farm bill was pushed by Tom Dashle and Democrat's.

It took two parties two create the mess that we are in, and except for the war, the Democrat's have been responsible for most of it.

You would be naive to think that an independent president would fair any better with Democrats.

I voted for Ross Perot knowing that he would be delocked with congress.

I said it before and I'll say it again. When idiology is as far apart as conservatives from liberals, you are wasting your time reaching across the aisle. You will only pull back a bloody stomp when dealing with Democrats.

Independents ideology is even further.

A Vet Looks at Barack Obama
In a normal election I wouldn't be that concerned with any protest votes going to a candidate that has no possibility of winning and can serve only as a spoiler.

In this election, I would like to advise Bob Barr to come to a true understanding of the stakes in this election and throw his support to John McCain.

George Bush is a big government republican. There is no doubt. And that's his biggest failure in my opinion.

But, I can safely say that Barack Obama is a Marxist allied with a domestic terrorist, Islamists, and other radical leftists for at least the last 21 years on project after project with the purpose of subverting the United States. With a massive influx of money from Islamist and radical left sources, voter fraud, a biased press, and third party candidates; they're on the verge of succeeding.

http://www.pr-inside.com/william-ayers-and-barack-obama-fin ally-r797225.htm

This unrepentant domestic terrorist, as head of the Weather Underground, was planning to kill 25 million Americans who couldn't be 'reeducated'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJn5b8_weUY

I'm a Vietnam veteran who after watching the DVD 'Obsession' about Islamic terrorism and reading Brigitte Gabriel's book 'Because They Hate' decided to find out what I could about Barack Obama. It has me truly concerned for this nation that I love. You can see more about Obama and his allies on my blog.

For me the most important article I found to understand Barack Obama is at http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html

scottK
"Now if all of you, for example, decided one day to descend on the GOP like locusts - for the express purpose of taking it over from within... now THAT would get everyone's attention, faster than you could say Bob Barr."

We did. Remember the Ron Paul phenomenon? Remember the outcome? We were all told that we were kooks and that we were not welcome in the GOP. Now you're all surprised that we're not voting for McSame?

Bob Barr should withdraw
and support McCain.

Anything else is just like giving O the gift of conservative votes on a platter.

Vote McCain/Palin or you will have the O with his hands in your pockets for years.

Right on Bob!
That's why you got my vote. The only difference between the Republican socialist and theirs is one's white.

william
"Nothing is sadder than an intelligent person doing an abjectly stupid thing for no good reason. And that's exactly what Bob Barr and anyone who votes for him is doing."

Voting for liberty is not stupid. Voting for McCain -- who can't win -- is stupid for anyone who don't believe in his platform.

william
"Nothing is sadder than an intelligent person doing an abjectly stupid thing for no good reason. And that's exactly what Bob Barr and anyone who votes for him is doing."

Voting for liberty is not stupid. Voting for McCain -- who can't win -- is stupid for anyone who doesn't believe in his platform.

Bob Barr? You've Got To Be Kidding!!!
All you Barack Hussein Obama fans should quit trying to fool us. We are on to you and your hi-jinks!!!

Why don't you cut out the middle-man and just go on and vote for your 'messiah'? Have enough spine to admit that is what you are doing.

the most important election in years
This is the most important election in years, maybe the most important one ever. Every four years that is the mantra. And every four years nothing changes. The difference between voting for Obama instead of McSame is the difference between drinking the kool-aid up or on the rocks. At the end of the day, the result is the same. Vote Barr and then clean your guns ‘cause the stuff is flying toward the fan!

renny
"Bob Barr should withdraw and support McCain."

So, now you want our support? Little late now.

William
"In a normal election I wouldn't be that concerned with any protest votes going to a candidate that has no possibility of winning and can serve only as a spoiler."

Okay, I'll bite. Who's the last Democrat nominee you wouldn't have minded winning due to a protest vote?

Seriously, the GOP demonizes the Democrat nominee every election. This is nothing new, and the scare tactic is wearing thin.

foxfire22
The Republican response to our growing entitlement spending problem was to add, yet another entitlement spending program, costing $50 billion a year. That program is called Medicare Prescription.

It was, yet another program passed by George Bush, Trent Lott, Tom Delay, Denny Hastert, John Boehnor to name a few in the cast of characters.

Instead of 'tax and spend' it's 'cut taxes and spend even more'. This leads to a mountain of debt, which has led to the financial train wreck that is now unfolding.

This living beyond one's ability to pay is a poor model to show your fellow citizens.

Gregdn
Gregdn
Location: CA
Reply # 4
Date: Oct 27, 2008 - 3:09 PM EST Right on Bob!
That's why you got my vote. The only difference between the Republican socialist and theirs is one's white.


... and thier special interest groups are a little different. Otherwise, they are birds of a feather.

Zapdoodat MA
Hey, I agree with your post at "Eyes Wide Open"

It's not a question of Republicans and Democrats anymore, there seems to be a "race" among them as to who is more "Politically Correct" and thus, more liberal.

Amerika today hasn't got a clue of what conservatism is about, Republicans went stirr crazy trying to out liberal Democrats.

As I said, Humpty-Dumpty is broken beyond repair. Who knows, perhaps the "Troika" Pelosi/Reed/Obama will so totally destroy this country that perhaps a generation or two down the road it might rise from the ashes...
Long live the USSA Politburo.

TheEngineer, 3:08 PM post.

You have my profound sympathies.

If Ron Paul was not such a rabid isolationist and if he had a little better sense to put the fault for 9-11 for were it actually lies, with the terrorists... I might be with you.

But I was not talking about a one-man crusade with a meager following. I was suggesting a collective grass-roots effort.

It may also surprise you... that I'm as upset about the direction of our country as you are.

But practically, the 3rd party route is and remains an endless and a hopeless exercise in futility.

And in reality, if Obama wins... America will pay a steep price for it.


foxfire22 TN
Farm subsidies are one of the cruelest hoaxes perpetrated on our farmers.

It has made them lazy and government dependent.

We have moved our farming to Brazil where we pay taxes and there are no subsidies. You are either increasingly efficient or you go broke.

Brazil, 35 years ago, subsidized the beginnings of their sugar-cane to ethanol program. It lasted almost 10 years. While there were subsidies, they were yielding 2.6 units of ethanol for every unit of petroleum input. (Our ethanol from corn yields a paltry 1.3 units for every 1.0 unit petroleum input).
As soon as the Brazilian government revioked subsidies, new efficiencies had to be found by free enterprise or go broke.
Today the Brazilian yield is a record 8.3 units for every 1.0 unit of petroleum input.
So much for hare-brained governments!

No Remorse Here
I'm voting for Barr, and I will sleep like a baby no matter whether McCain or Obama wins. In fact, if Barr gets more votes than Obama wins by, all the better.

I joined the Libertarian Party in 1992 because I could no longer in good conscience support a GOP that puts social issues ahead of fiscal issues. The social conservatives seem hell-bent on shoving their morality down our throats while our financial standing goes down the tubes. Both Giuliani and Romney had far better executive and fiscal credentials than McCain, but they didn't pass the scrutiny of the religious right, and now you've got the lowest common denominator, McCain, fronting the cause. Nice going.

At least the democrats are straight forward in their stated intentions of raising taxes to fund entitlement programs. So, maybe if Obama and a veto-proof democrat congress are in for two years and drive us into a deeper recession, the fiscal conservatives will find the wherewithal to shout down the social conservatives and come up with another contract that puts us on the road to a truly limited government: Lower taxes, reduced spending, and no more litmus tests on what should be personal business not government business.

Zogby has O 49.9 to Mac 45.1
Zogby has been the most consistently correct pollster for a quarter century--

His polling today (10.27.08) means the two candidates are virtually even as a 4.8 difference is within any margin of error.

Bob Barr should withdraw, support McCain/Palin, and not contribute to any more fraud and obfuscation than this vote already portends.

Vote McCalin/Palin for believable change in DC.

If Barr was to drop
then America would only have a choice between a socialist and a socialist for president. Opps, I forgot Ralph Nader. A socialist, a socialist or a socialist.

Regarding: Bob Barr should withdraw, support McCain/Palin, and not contribute to any more fraud and obfuscation than this vote already portends.



Egon to Zapdoodat
"Amerika today hasn't got a clue of what conservatism is about - Republicans went stirr crazy trying to out liberal Democrats."

I think you're misusing the use of the term "stir crazy", but I'll accept the crazy part. If Town Hall is any indication, consrvatives have been busy supporting the Amerika that believes government should tell us how to use our bodies for procreation, how we should die, how we should medicate ourselves, where we can and can't travel, who we can marry, and why our library choices should be the business of Amerikan government.

In the meantime, 21st century mainstream Amerika, (AKA your kids and grandkids) have moved on and are looking for ideas that are productive, new, and better. Looking back down the road, those waving, ever-dimishing creatures obscured by the dust are yourselves.

The 90s are gone forever; that will be true regardless of who wins this election.

Zogby boll
" Zogby has O 49.9 to Mac 45.1
Zogby has been the most consistently correct pollster for a quarter century--

His polling today (10.27.08) means the two candidates are virtually even as a 4.8 difference is within any margin of error."


The margin of error is 2.9%

Why should Barr drop out?
"Bob Barr should withdraw, support McCain/Palin, and not contribute to any more fraud and obfuscation than this vote already portends."

LOL. It's funny how many here express their disdain for Libertarians while simultaneously wondering why the Libertarian nominee won't drop out and support the party that has no support for us.

Galltegfa
Interesting post.

The engineer
One of my kids works for the Sherriff's department of a major American City. He is not a cop, but he gets just about as close to the underbelly of social issues as well as the realities of government (his employer)as anybody who is on the front lines, outside of the jail and offices.

He has been an independent for a long time - I am a liberal. We try to have alot of debates at the dinner table but they fizzle out because essentially we agree on just about everything.

I saw Barr
on Bill Mahar's show about a year and a half ago. He was witty, bright, had a great sense of humor and was interesting. He was not offended or defensive by Mahar's over-the-top humor and opinions, seemed like a true grown-up.

Why Barr Is Running For President!!!
Libertarian Party candidate Bob Barr is running for President of the United States for the following reasons: 1. He is a patriot. 2. He is the 'leader' of the nation's third largest political party. 3. As he wants to promote his party's belief in smaller government, lower taxes and more freedom, a Presidential election season is an opportune time to do this. 4. In a nation that believes in freedom of choice, he wants American voters to have an additional option to vote for. 5. A Presidential election season is a great time to bring attention to, and gain members for, your political party. It's also a great time to help set the national political agenda for the next legislative term. 6. Two things will happen, if he and his running mate Wayne Allyn Root, get at least 5% of the nation's popular vote on November 4th. Beginning with the 2012 Libertarian Presidential Campaign, signature petition drives for state ballot access would become unnecessary. Also, the party's Presidential Campaign would qualify for voluntary federal Presidential Election Campaign Fund money. 7. He believes that America 'desperately needs' a third major political party right now. So he is working very hard to help build it. If he gets more than 921,299 votes or more than 1.1% of the total votes this national election, he will set a Libertarian Party Presidential record. 8. To get enough national popular and electoral votes to become the next President and help return this nation to greatness. So as you can see, Bob Barr has many very important reasons to run for President than just to win The White House! If you believe in this his cause, and after studying him like him best, then simply support him for President. Time will tell how many victories his campaign won! I trust this information has helped you in making your decision. I will be voting for a 'real winner' in Bob Barr on November 4th! I certainly hope that you will join me, by voting for him too!!!

Barr vote is a proxy vote for Obama

Rationalizations for Obama

The complex process the human mind uses to arrive at decision-making has been the topic of many volumes.

One consensus that is generally held is the human mind can justify any decision and any action that it takes.

Rationalization is the mortal enemy of facts, logic and reason.

Rationalization is in ‘simple’ terms, a defense mechanism that attempts to explain bad decisions or behavior in a rational logical manner.

Rationalizing that a vote for any candidate that cannot win is not a vote for Obama gives us a prime example of rationalization.

Rationalizing that a ‘symbolic’ vote will teach the major parties a lesson contrasts the reality of their premise that the major parties ‘do not know what they are doing’ and ‘haven’t learned from the past’.

Teaching 'Politicians' a lesson is oxymoronic at best - Obama-Followers will vote for Obama regardless.

Third party votes at this time in history, is simply a 'proxy' vote for Obama that gives one a feeling of 'superior' Patriotism, I guess.

Rationalizing that ones closely held principles trump the safety and wellfare of America and its citizens is little different from those who want America destroyed.

Those who say we need to return to the Constitution that many Americans have left or attempted to destroy will be best accomplished by giving Obama and Liberals their desires and wishes to control America, is akin to giving children matches and gasoline.

The children will surely learn a lesson if survival succeeds in overcoming the odds.

Rationalizing that an Obama presidency will be good for America in the long run defies facts, logic and reason.

McCain/Palin 08

Bob Barr

The republican party has shown itself to be incompetent and incoherent in governance for the last 8 years. As much as I have admired and respected John McCain to say that his campaign has been poorly run is a gross understatement. The party needs to recognize that it's purpose is to govern the country effectively and efficiently not just cut taxes to some and hand out government contracts to their well connected friends.

If after the election the party gravitates to empty-headed pretty ideologs like a certain down-home-folksy mayor/governor instead of creative, intellegent people with real ideas, then the party will deserve to fall into obscurity.

Perhaps the party be able to make a transformation. Or perhaps it's time for a real conservative party to form.


Vote Bob Barr

Bob Barr
Bob's strategy is off base, and needs to worry about Obama more than McCain..WHY? Supreme Court Justices. Obama will NOT nominate leftist Justices, not like Alito and Roberts(both Bush appointees).
Libertarians, I repeat Obama will NOT nominate Federal Justices that will have a strict interpretation of the Constitution. The Economy, Health Care, Credit Crisis, all are smoke screens. Liberals have successfully implemented the socialism virus through the Judicial Branch. Bush scored big with Alito and Roberts. Now, McCain can score real big with Janice Rogers Brown as the 1st African American Woman Supreme Court Justice.

So true
"I will not defend the run away spending of the Bush administration, but I will defend that it was not all Republican's that created our spending problems."

But a vote for McCain is a vote for the expansion of GOP big spending and big govt. The only cure (at this moment) is to send the GOP a message they will listen to -- by voting for Bob Barr.

If Barr gets few votes, the GOP will become more socialist. If Barr gets a lot of votes, the GOP will return to it's conservative days.


Ret Geek: Agreed!

And NOW is NOT THE TIME to attempt to "punish" the Republican Party for losing their Conservative roots.

Just too much at stake!

Problem is, like it or not, with a liberal Congress, should Marxist Obama get elected, we'll to too far down that Marxist - Communist road to recover... at least in our life times.

And if that's not enough... How about this???

Mark Warner: Freedom is unAmerican (REALLY?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdXfwaf2ncs

Mark Warner, while talking to his liberal friends, talks about the "Christian Coalition, NRA, and homeschoolers" as UN-American.

Guess Warner didn't know he was being taped.

ROFL at Barr supporting McCain/Palin
I imagine it is possible that Barr could drop and endorse McCain -- if McCain first promised made a gesture towards smaller government. Instead, while McCain was talking small goverment out of one side of his mouth, he was bailing out GSEs and major corporations out of the other.

At least Obama is more honest -- he talks like a liberal and he legislates like a liberal.

McCain is talking smack while continuing his decades old pattern of promoting big government.

Small: Actually, if Barr gets few votes,

Marxist obama MIGHT be the next POTUS. If Barr gets a lot of votes, Marxist obama WILL be the next POTUS.


Egon
You have no disagreement with me about farm subsidies. I have a small farm, and I get nothing from the government. But, big farms have recieved subsidies to encourage them not to grow. We wind up getting our food from outside of the US. Subsidies are either welfare or bribery.

Barr AIDS OBAMA WIN
.
Please stop this.

NOW.

You prove little, yet incur great damage.

Phantom Indies, Straw Mods?
Want to know why Mack is polling poorly? I do too. After all, wasn't his whole strategy, including all those antics in the Senate that horrified conservatives, supposed to somehow attract independents and moderates?

Okay, so where are they? Yoo hoo?!

Looks like there's a little problem with that approach. It's pathetic enough to pander at all, but it really scrapes bottom to pander to phantoms & strawmen.

What kind of blithering idiot bases a strategy on p*ssing off a segment of the electorate in order to (supposedly) appeal to another alleged segment (as well as the pop media), then relying on that segment he flipped off to swallow it & come vote for him anyway?

If this had been intended as a deliberate scheme to alienate, shun, & estrange conservatives from the GOP, it could hardly have been different.

The Dems now run in an all-out sprint to the amoral Left. These are the folks who supported Bill Clinton after Waco; you can put NOTHING past them.

Instead of offering a contrast & alternative, the GOP runs after them, ostensibly trying to pick up "moderates." They can't contrast themselves because the difference is that of degree, not kind. The GOP lives on the same reservation & buys into the same premises & presumptions.

A President McCain + a Dem Congress will stand for nothing, but will pander shamelessly to everything their hearts desire. That's what scares me about Mack; he'd do things Obama mightn't dare touch. Then when the house of cards falls, the Republican gets blamed. In that sense, it's Bush squared.

Sarah Palin as RM tells me they know darn well where their problem is. Trouble is, they should have realized it a year ago, & let it guide their choice of nominee instead of running mate. But, it's more important to them to slough off "the right wing" & become the me-too Democrat Lite pseudoparty than even to win elections.

Retired Geek
"Barr vote is a proxy vote for Obama"

Not at all. A vote for Barr is not counted in the Obama total. Assuming your premise that Barr won't win is correct, it's actually analogous to staying home and not voting. Of course you won't say that, because then you'd have to argue that we owe a vote to McCain, rather than suggesting whom we should choose. Well, I certainly don't owe McCain a vote, especially as I was all but escorted out of the party. LOL at you all realizing you could use our votes at this late date.

Myths about voting third party
Some of the comments on this thread fall in line with three common myths:

* Myth #1: Voting for a third party is a waste. You're throwing away your vote.

First, it doesn't have to be about winning the election. Even if the candidate does not win, your vote can influence not only the election but also the major parties. If a major party believes it lost because of third-party votes, it has incentive to adopt some of their policies to attract those voters in the next election. Your vote can help a third party gain critical mass to become a feared presence in future elections, keeping the major parties focused on voters instead of lobbyists. Parties should fear voters, not the other way around.

Second, voting third is not the waste that abstaining is. Nobody can tell whether you're fed up with politics, satisfied with the way things are, or genuinely uninterested. Voting third party gives a more distinct message.

The way I see it, the only TRULY wasted vote is the one not cast.

* Myth #2: Third parties "steal" votes from the major parties

Variant: "A vote for Barr is a vote for Obama"... It's just plain silly. For something to be stolen, it has to belong to you first. Votes are not "owned" by the major parties. They are owned by the voters and must be earned. The major parties reveal a real sense of entitlement to your votes when they make this argument.

* Myth #3: This is THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION EVER so although we love third parties, you really should vote your conscience some other time when the stakes aren't as high.

I have heard this refrain every single election of my adult life, and I'm not all that young. The reality never turns out quite as awful as these hysterics suggest.

The Republic will remain despite people taking themselves way too seriously.

When will it ever be the time?
Anne said: And NOW is NOT THE TIME to attempt to "punish" the Republican Party for losing their Conservative roots.

And 2006 wasn't the time.

And 2004 wasn't the time.

And 2002 wasn't the time.

And Bush actually talked liked a conservative for the 2000 elections.


When will it ever be the time?

Let's not forget those NTU data
McCain will increase federal spending by $100 billion per year.

Obama will increase federal spending by $300 billion per year.

Barr will DECREASE federal spending by $200 per year.

At least McCain is good on First and Second Amendment rights. Oops, I forget about McCain-Feingold.

At least McCain is good on immigration. Oops, I forgot...

John Shaft says Barr is "off base"
because of "Supreme Court Justices. Obama will NOT nominate leftist Justices, not like Alito and Roberts."

Yeah - I can see why you got Obama and McCain confused, with both of them being liberal and socialist and all.

Seriously, you can forget SCOTUS appointments as a reason to vote for McCain. The difference between McCain and Obama there will be Kennedys vs Breyers, because McCain wouldn't be able to get anyone better than Kennedy through the Dem senate. Another Kennedy is not worth wasting a vote over.

Joycey: "McCain will only loose [sic]
without Conservative support."

If McCain wanted conservative support, he should have been supporting us all along, instead of suddenly talking conservative this year. We owe him nothing.

McCain the moderate
"Seriously, you can forget SCOTUS appointments as a reason to vote for McCain. The difference between McCain and Obama there will be Kennedys vs Breyers, because McCain wouldn't be able to get anyone better than Kennedy through the Dem senate. Another Kennedy is not worth wasting a vote over."

Additionally, McCain won't even want to nominate anyone more conservative than Kennedy. LOL at these guys expecting an Alito out of McCain.

Well said, Tim!
The neocons took over the party. Let's see if they can win elections now.

I think Barr will get a decent vote total now that it's clear that McCain can't win. I read every post on this thread looking for a positive reason to vote for McSame. There were none posted. All I could find were anti-Obama posts. Too bad all the GOP has left is scare mongering.

McCan'ts beliefs
Can someone really smart Anti-Obama person please let me know what McCan't honestly believes in? I can't figure it out.

One one day he's against bailouts and ear marks...the next day he's voting for a pork-fattened bailout bill.

He admits to being weak on the economy...but claims he knows how to fix it.

He knows how to get Bin Laden...but hasn't found the time in the LAST 7 YEARS to inform any Military leaders of this wondrous plan.

He's against big gov't and fiscal irresponsibility...but has no plans to reduce it's size or shore up the strength of the dollar.

He claims to be in the Average Citizen's corner and have their best interests in mind...but, if given the choice again today, would vote for the bill that made it harder for them to declare bankruptcy.

As far as I can tell, the only thing he's truly against is abortion...well, at least when he's infront of a conservative christian crowd.

So please inform all of us "poor dumb slob" Barr supporters what Mr McCan't truly believes in. We would appreciate the information.

Chris, Tim, TheEng: Scare Mongering?

Oh, okay... opposed to temper tantrums... "YOU didn't listen to ME! I'm MAD! I'll show YOU! I didn't get MY WAY, SO THERE!!!"

Well guys, sometimes we don't get what we want when we want it. Sometimes we actually have to be grown ups and figure out how to play with the cards that are dealt when they're dealt.

It appears that you're NOT paying attention to what's at stake!!!



TheEngineer, Paulson took a stab at
writing a positive column about McCain.

http://townhall.com/Columnists/TerryPaulson/2008/10/26/why_ america%e2%80%99s_best_option_for_president_is_john_mccain? page=full&comments=true

If you're bored and looking to be amused, check it out...

BOB BARR
YOU JUST SHOWED THE WORLD WHY YOU AREN'T ON A MAJOR PARTY TICKET.THAT RUNNING MATE OF YOURS IS WAY OUT THERE TO.POOR OLE RON PAUL EVEN TURNED YOU DOWN NOW THAT IS SAYING A LOT. GOD BLESS

Anne, a McCain presidency would be bad
for the country, so I will not vote for him. I'm well aware of what's at stake here.

This is not a matter of retribution or revenge - it's an attempt to pull the GOP back to the right the next time around.

I am playing the cards I was dealt. Fortunately my hand has more than two cards.

Dare you to watch THIS!!!!


Why I'm A Conservative

Republicanhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acQluy7nymw&NR=1

Chris: Oookay!
.

GOP - what do you stand for?
so, if you don't have fiscal prudence (see article), and you don't have ethics (see senator stevens), and you don't believe in a culture of life (see iraq war), and you're tolerant of gays (see senator craig), and you don't believe in abstinence (see palin's daughter), then what do you GOP-ers stand for anymore? lots of luck for the next 8 years!

What is a Patriot?

Well, Barack Obama says that is someone who is willing to "Sacrifice for the Common Good".

Karl Marx thought it was "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

Bob Barr and his supporters think it is 'Hurt America to the Point that America may Never recover".

Anyone who thinks that there is NO difference between Barack Obama and John McCain is very ill informed and maybe even clueless.

What intrigues me is that Barr supporters think that giving America a 'Death Blow' or near 'Death Blow' will somehow ensure a better future? huh?

I have encountered bad logic in my time but this takes top prize.

An American Patriot is someone who is willing to do whatever it takes to try and save this great country - Barr and his supporters are willing to do whatever it takes to hurt this great country.

Who are the ones you are trying to teach this lesson you so badly want to teach?

Politicians?

Marxists and Leftists?

I think you are just childish and if everyone won't play the game you want it to be played you will just take the ball and go home.

my bad
i misspoke. the GOP is NOT tolerant of gays. see CA prop h8. apologies.

Traitor.
I personally wish that Bob Barr would keep his big mouth shut. He is a hinderance to either party.Edwards was a pain in the butt in 04 taking votes from both parties.
Bob Barr just has a big ego and wont let it go that barely any one ever votes for him.

It's all a Game with Barr supporters

You all say when can America or the Republicans realize how important we are?

When will we be lauded and praised for our stance.

To your eternal shame, America will be destroyed by Marxist Obama and a 'Super Majority' congress.

I have more respect for Bill Ayers - he is trying to destroy America to teach it a lesson just like the Libertarians - at least Ayers doesn't hide behind a false sense of patriotism.

Liberty
I will not, repeat, will not under any circumstances vote for McCain, so give it up. Likely would have voted Obama, if I only had to choose from the two, and he sucks. Palin no way, sorry don't vote for crazy people.

Does everyone here realize that in forty years they are going to call us the dumbest generation ever, we are so busy flinging crap at each other, like a bunch of rabid monkeys. We face some truly monumental challenges, yet we focus on trivial things. We ignore real threats and scare each other into the lowest common denominator. Individual rights need to be protected at all cost, in order for the collective to function properly.

The Libertarian ideals have to be the foundation upon which we build our society, they have been, the Constitution is the purest expression of those ideals. Beyond that comes our noble endeavors, but the best socialist ideas need to be supported by a strong free people, we can do great good, but not at the expense of liberty.

I am voting Bob Barr, because he and the Libertarian party are the only ones who stand for the pure unadulterated Constitution, they understand how the greater collective is served best by free, brave individuals.

Barr '08' Libertarian for life.

Hypocrisy
I find it hillarious that people in one breath will rail against socialism...and in the next will demand that someone not run for President.

If you were true freedom-loving Americans, you would be demanding more and *better* candidates, not fewer and less qualified ones.

I always thought the GOP stood for.
the rule of law. Barr stands for the rule of law. McCain stands for the rules of the Keating 5.

I thought the GOP was opposed to government spending. Barr will decrease spending by $200 billion while McCain will increase it by $100 billion.

I thought the GOP was opposed to welfare. Barr opposed the bailouts but McCain supported over a trillion dollars of corporate welfare.

I thought the GOP was pro-life. Barr is strongly pro-life while McCain waffles on the issue.

I thought the GOP was pro-gun. Barr has a lifetime NRA rating of A+. McCain, well, McCain barely passed one gun rating and has failed every other gun rating I know of.

I thought the GOP supported the Constitution. Barr doesn, even when it isn't politically expedient. McCain co-authored McCain-Feingold.


Who is more Republican (or at least what Republicans used to be when they still had their balls), Bob Barr or John McCain?

p*ssed vet
As a veteran I take great offense to people trying to bully me into throwing away my vote that my brave brothers have helped secure for all of us fortunate to be born here, or legally immigrated here. You dishonor every one that put on a uniform to protect our right to choose for yourself how to vote. If you think you have a good argument, let's hear it. The true patriot is the one who is willing to fight and die for another's right to vote their conscience, especially if they disagree, everyone else should be ashamed of themselves.

Libertarians stand on issues not insults.
Barr '08'

I forgot
I thought McCain was opposed to pork. Why did he just vote for over $100 million of pork in the bailout bill a real conservative wouldn't have voted for anyway?

Wolf in sheep's clothing
McCain is just a socialist in Republican clothing

Retired Geek, I can't speak for other
Barr supporters, but I want what is best for America. I have no interest in participating in a death blow to America.

I believe the danger from Obama & co is often overstated on these boards - I'm specifically thinking of people who claim this will be our last free election.

I agree there is significant danger from Obama's plans to add entitlements and "spread the wealth" - but we've had Republicans doing exactly that for the last 8 years.

Many Republicans are blind to the damage already done by Bush and the GOP, who have roughly doubled the size of government and the national debt since 2001.

Also, doesn't it bother you that McCain has supported and sponsored so many unconstitutional expansions of federal power? Are you blind to that?


I think the best case scenario for the country is for McCain to lose, followed by the GOP returning to its limited-government roots.

McCain and Obama are taking us to the same place - it's just the speed that's different. Hopefully with a McCain loss we'll have at least one party that's willing and able to take us in the right direction again.

Anne
"It appears that you're NOT paying attention to what's at stake!!!"

We know exactly what's at stake. What's at stake is a real party of limited government to counteract the tendency of Washington to expand. If the GOP won't be that party, the Libertarian Party will.

I prefer a small party that fights for American ideals to a corrupted party that spews patronizing limited government rhetoric while running up an almost $5T debt in only eight years. You'll all thank us in a few years when the GOP is forced back to its roots in a bid to figure out how to gain an electoral majority.

Anne
One more thing. McCain can't win, so this is the ideal time to take a stand for limited government. If we can't do it this year, when can we? If we don't do ever take a stand, the GOP will know they can just take us for granted and will continue its big government ways.

Also, it's funny that I didn't read all this hand wringing when Dobson said (prior to flip floppping) he'd never vote for McCain. Why the double standard?

Energy independance
How about this, under Libertarian government, this nation could provide all its own energy, at the same time reduce greenhouse gasses. We could end all government subsidies to huge AgriCorps, and allow depressed farmers to produce a valuable crop, end deforestation and have a huge reserve of food and fuel. guess what you'll will never hear it from McBama, who do they work for that wants us to keep going this direction, when we have the solution right in our hands, just ludicrous.

Retired Geek
"It's all a Game with Barr supporters."

LOL. So many here DEMAND we vote for McCain, while being as rude and disrespectful to our beliefs as ever.

If you want our vote, you should all demand the GOP stop being the party of big government, rather than demanding that we vote for big government.

Energy indipendance
Hey I got the Libertarian answer to this one, decrim hemp. Hemp is capable of producing a large enough amount of energy to replace a lot of our fossil fuel requirements, thus leaving all that carbon safely under ground. While it grew it would be soaking up a lot of carbon, we could conceivably end up reusing the same carbon over and over again, not introducing new carbon from fossils. The Government would not have to spend a dime, just remove a law, in fact the government would save huge amounts of money.
We humans are pretty smart, given the chance, and this nation could go wind, solar and hemp, maybe a nuke or two, eliminating our dependence on unstable or harmful sources of energy. We can solve these problems with out taxes, maybe even make a buck or two, the average family could feasibly produce all their own energy. Just a thought.

Chris et al

What is your recovery plan from a Marxist administration?

How well have we recovered from FDR?

How well have we recovered from the Great Society?

You people disgust me! I have fought for a Constitutional Republic for for over 36 years.

Republicans NOR Democrats win elections - the moderates in the middle decide.

What EXACTLY is your plan to convince the moderates to go conservative?

Personally, I do NOT think you have the right to call yourself a Conservative.

WHO IS IN CHARGE of THIS IDIOT, BARR?
IT IS TRUE WATCH LOUIS FARRAKAN, NOI LEADER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OowxMcVTjTE

Penny Pritzer, chair of the Obama campaign, with Earnst&Young, working through Merrill Lynch, engineered sub-prime loans that created the worldwide meltdown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&eurl=http://www. %20redstate.com/

Democrats obstructed every OVERSIGHT bill by John McCain since 2001 that would have PREVENTED this worldwide MELTDOWN! (google S.190)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMClWTzj_HI&watch_response

OBAMA friends, ACORN, Pritzer, Raines, Pelosi, Reid, Thompson, Dodd, Kerry and Franks finance committee are ALL intricately connected to Fannie Mae and the worldwide meltdown!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYI0mHWQeD8

TheEngineer: Okie Dokie... :-)

I'm not convinced that McCain can't win...

But just remember:

"FROM each according to his ability.... TO each according to his needs."


We may all be eating those words.


TheEngineer et al

I don't expect or want your vote!!!!!!!!!!

That being said, I just want to go on record with my disgust for your lack of concern for America and its citizens.


Retired Geek
"I don't expect or want your vote!!!!!!!!!!

That being said, I just want to go on record with my disgust for your lack of concern for America and its citizens."

Seems you should be complaining about the over 50% of American who will actually vote for Obama, then.

Libertarian Mantra

Libertarians cannot help themselves - they must cite their 'Mantra'.

"...All I want is to be left alone to do what I wish, provided that others are not harmed if I do..."

Most anything is permissable by Libertarians because if someone doesn’t like it, they can choose not to participate in it.

But what he can’t do is choose not to live in a culture that has been vulgarized and cheapened by Libertarians.

Like most intellectual sophistry, everything is theoritical to a Libertarian.

The concept that all that is good is only that which is freely chosen simply means that there is NO inherent good or evil - I strongly disagree with that.

Who then will decide whether or not someone is harmed by their choices?

What then will the penalty be, if someone is harmed by their choices?

For a Libertarian society to function successfully, it would require a nation of ideologues. This is an accusation often made of Socialism and Communism, but it is no less accurate here.

Free spirits, the ambitious, ex-socialists, drug users, and sexual eccentrics are usually the Libertarians.

Libertarians believe they can arm themselves with an ideologue and rhetoric and the 'Impurity' of their ideal society and force the rest of us to live in it.

I decline to allow libertarians the sophistical trick of using a vulgar libertarianism to agitate for what they want by defending a refined version of their doctrine when challenged philosophically. I’ve seen Marxists pull that before.

Anne
"FROM each according to his ability.... TO each according to his needs."

Yeah, I'm not crazy about Obama's positions either. Still, surely you noticed how much Bush managed to spend in the past eight years.

This is our chance to regain the GOP. It can again be what it was in 1994, before it got corrupted by the power we gave it by voting for it in regardless of their integrity, if we all take a stand. I urge everyone who cares about America to vote for Bob Barr. It's the only way to start the GOP back to being a party of honor and liberty.

Chris et al
I would rather fail doing what is right, than succeed doing what is wrong. I don't know, but imagine what they said about the revolution, it was pretty much impossible to think we could defeat the British Empire. Just glad you were not there, otherwise we would still be soluting the King.

Hey the Constitution of the United States of America just called, thanking you for your support, not.

There is no issue upon which you can stand, so sit down.

TheEngineer et al

I seriously doubt that many posters if any has spoken out against Marxist Barack Obama as much as I.

Check out my blog.

I have for sometime debated Marxism/Socialism/Communism on Marxist sites all over the world.

I have pure disgust for those who want to debase and hurt America and that includes Libertarians.

Retired Geek
Yeah, you seem like a statist who fears liberty. You should stay secure in the comfort of your big government master, as you have been all your life. Too bad Obama will be the one now using the power YOU helped give the federal government.

Libertarians et al

I am NOT interested in legalizing Prostitution.

I am NOT interested in legalizing Pornography.

I am NOT interested in legalizing Drugs.

I am NOT interested in a vulgarized and cheapened society that is so important to Libertarians.

If Marxism is the delusion that one can run society purely on altruism and collectivism, then libertarianism is the mirror-image delusion that one can run it purely on selfishness and individualism.

Like Marxism, Libertarianism aspires, overtly or covertly, to reduce social life to economics. And like Marxism, it has its historical myths and a genius for making its followers feel like an elect unbound by the moral rules of their society.


Retired Geek, how well have we recovered
from Nixon? I'm talking here of all the regulatory structure he put in place - not watergate.

like McCain, Nixon was a big government liberal. He believed in the power of government to fix things, and ended up causing far more problems than he solved.

I don't care which party McCain is in - I will not vote for that. Actually - it would be better to have McCain as a Democrat president, because then the GOP in congress would fight all the nonsense he'd try to pull.


The entirety of your argument is "the other guy is bad, so vote for us." You seem not to have considered that "our" guy might cause the country just as much harm. You leave the dynamic with congress out of the equation.


My recovery plan is prophylactic - to not let the Dems get a filibuster-proof majority. As long as we've got 41 reliably conservative senators, they can limit the damage Obama is able to do. Many of those same 41 senators would give a liberal Republican whatever he wants (like with W).


RG concludes "Personally, I do NOT think you have the right to call yourself a Conservative."

Ah, the irony is thick tonight - seeing as I'll be voting for a conservative (Chuck Baldwin), and you're planning to vote for a liberal.

False equivalence
It doesn't serve anybody's interest to claim that Bush or McCain are as bad as Obama, Pelosi or Reid. They're not. Anybody making that claim loses credibility with informed people.

As bad has Bush has been, and his only peers as socialist presidents are FDR and LBJ, Obama is worse far worse. Obama is a Marxist. He's cut from the same cloth as Lenin, Mao, and Castro. As bad as Bush has been and McCain will be, they're not Marxists.

The case for Barr and the Libertarian party is not that Republicans are as bad as Democrats. The case is that Republicans are nearly as bad as Democrats. The 2 parties have more in common than they have in differences.

Both parties are klepocrats. They confiscate taxpayer money and use it buy votes with earmarks. Both parties are parties of aristocrats, and those aristocrats are the same as aristocrats throughout history. Aristocrats make their living off the backs of the taxpayers. Both parties are sheriff's of Nottingham, and we're the peasants who live under threat of having our homes burned for not paying enough.

Aristocrats have normal human nature. They're primary motivation is to take care of themselves. In the private sector, the way to riches and power is to create more jobs and create more wealth. Everybody wins. For aristocrats, the way to riches and power is to raise taxes, increase government spending, and buy votes.

This is the argument Bob Barr and the Libertarian Party should be making. They just harm themselves by trying to equate the poor government of Bush and McCain with the Marxist governing philosophy of Obama.

http://freedomistheanswer.blogspot.com/

TheEngineer et al

“When we get in a tussle, we appeal to the Founding Fathers and the Constitution’s ratifiers to give direction. Some, like Justice Scalia, conclude that the original understanding must be followed and if we obey this rule, democracy is respected.

Others, like Justice Breyer, insist that sometimes the original understanding can take you only so far -- that on the truly big arguments, we have to take context, history, and the practical outcomes of a decision into account.

I have to side with Justice Breyer’s view of the Constitution -- that it is not a static but rather a living document and must be read in the context of an ever-changing world.”

Barack Obama, In his 2006 book 'The Audacity of Hope'.
------------------------------------------------
"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set," he said. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."
Barack Obama Speech July 2, 2008 Colorado Springs CO
------------------------------------------------

What is YOUR proposal to deal with a President with a filibuster proof congress and a personal 'Civilian Security Force', just as strong and just as powerful as the US Military?

Send Barack Obama a copy of the US Constitution?

Send a message to Congress that is totally controlled by Obama followers?

What will you say to your children and grandchildren - "I told them so'?

That you helped destroy American freedom and liberty by casting a 'proxy vote for Barack Obama?

Explain to all of us how helping to destroy America is good for America?

Barr interview in today's Reason
http://www.reason.com/news/show/129221.html

Gary, help me out here...
I've been arguing for months that real conservatives should reject McCain in favor of those who would return the federal government to its constitutional limits: Barr or Baldwin.

You seem to be a Barr supporter as well.

This makes me curious as to why you would attack me in you 8:59 post, when I've been arguing for the same thing you have.

So - was all that support for Barr satire, or do you have me confused with someone else, or am I not a pure enough libertarian for you or what?

Chris et al

I have no doubt that Baldwin is a good man, but Mickey Mouse has just as good a chance at becoming POTUS as Baldwin.

You DO NOT understand the seriousness of Electing a Marxist like Barack Obama.

John McCain is not even in my top 25 if I had my choice of candidates, but he is 'Light Years' better than Obama.

I am voting for the best electable candidate that at least is a Patriot.

Abortion is a big issue with most Baldwin supporters. Obama is the choice of all Abortionists and you people are helping to elect him.
------------------------------------------------

"...Moreover, it is ready to strike the first and absolutely necessary blow in a few weeks, that is, to elect Barack Obama and bigger majorities in the House and Senate by a landslide..."

Author: Sam Webb, National Chair,
Communist Party USA
First published 09/27/2008 17:43
------------------------------------------------

You are helping Sam Webb.

Retired Geek
You really know how to entice us Libertarians back into the pack, especially with your assumed moral superiority. Do you think berating us for doing what we think is the moral and patriotic thing - that is vote our consciences based on real principles verses accepting the lesser of two evils - is going to help your cause?

Plainly stated, we believe in returning the Federal government to its role as set forth in the Constitution. Are you suggesting that the framers were somehow morally lacking and that you know better than they?

Galltegfa

Helping Communists with Barr vote
Report to the CPUSA National Committee, July 7, 2007

"To begin, I want to acknowledge that more than my fingerprints are on this report. Many comrades in discussions and by email gave me ideas and suggestions that I believe give the report more depth and range. I want to thank the comrades who took time out to convey their thinking.

Thus, despite its weakened position, the Bush administration with the assist of the Republicans in Congress continues to be the main obstacle to social progress and to a speedy exit from Iraq. In a parliamentary system, Bush would have had to voluntarily resign or be forced to resign.

While Bush will soon be history, we will have to live with U.S. Supreme Court for much longer – a court that Bush has tilted to the extreme right with the additions of Alito and Roberts last year.

Enlisting Democrats to support antiwar legislation has to go hand-in-hand with a sustained effort to peel away significant numbers of congressional Republicans from Bush’s war policy.

House Majority leader Nancy Pelosi said at the Take Back America conference that “the ‘biggest ethical challenge is the war in Iraq … (and) the new direction cannot be complete until we bring the troops home.”

In response to a group of communists whose manifesto militantly proclaimed that they wanted to attain their goal without stopping at intermediate stages and without any compromises, Frederick Engels wrote, “What childish innocence it is to present impatience as a theoretically convincing argument.”

Thus, the fact that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reed are ready to exit Iraq, that Bush is becoming isolated in his own Party, and that Republicans are beginning to breakaway from Bush’s war strategy should be welcomed."

Sam Webb National Chair, Communist Party USA

Lame vague
Fine let's have Authoratarianism, but I get to be the Authority.

It is pretty easy to figure out what is right or wrong, can you sue, or be sued for your actions. Do onto others as you would have done unto you, or go to jail.

No you can not legislate morality, but you can prove harm.

Tell me how you are harmed, by gay marrige, pot heads, or peaceful idealists. Explain to me how having big brother pick your spouse, or how you spend your time and money, is American. Who here wants big brother to pick their God, how to worship him, or even allow you to mention God, if that worked we would all be Catholic, but along came Luther.

Tell you what I can get rather specific, not some vague adhock argument about ideals, there has to be some rules. Here's one, only individuals who can compitantly and legally enter into a binding contract, may marry, there done. No animals or children, only adults capable of making an informed decision for themselves.

What's your idea, no mixed racial marriges next, no more than a 10 year age difference, only someone from the same state? Who sets these rules?

Just so you know I am a 40 year old hetero male, married with a son. Freedom is protecting the rights of others, not your own rights, otherwise there is no freedom. In the army we are taught to protect our buddy not our self, because our best protection is our buddy.


Barr '08'

Taliesin et al

Everyone should vote their conscience.

I am going to speak my mind and you may speak yours.

I am not interested in convincing anyone that doesn't have enough sense to see the trouble America will be in with a Barack Obama/Marxist and a 'Super Majority' congress into NOT helping him win the election.

Wear your eternal shame with the others that help him win. That is your problem NOT mine.

"You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness.
If we fail, at least let our children and our children's children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done."
Ronald Reagan

BOB DONT DRINK THE BHO KOOL-AID!
MCCAIN-PALIN!THE ONLY CHOICE!

This is not limited government
RG wrote:
"
I am NOT interested in legalizing Prostitution.

I am NOT interested in legalizing Pornography.

I am NOT interested in legalizing Drugs.
"

Conservatives are experts at paying lip service to limited government, but when the rubber meets the road, they always support using the boot of government to support their values, just like liberals.

The only value built into the US Constitution is freedom. The Founding Fathers understood that enforcing values belonged with a free people, debating in a free market of ideas. Conservatives, for all their hot air in support of the Founding Fathers and limited government, don't back it up with actions. The American people are supposed to be the power in America, they are to be trusted, not the boot of government implementing either conservative or liberal values.

Chris
Sorry, do have you confused withsome one else, I am not that much of a purist, not at all. I am certainly not being satirical about Barr. Again please take my appologies for the misunderstanding.

Obama's Personal 'O' Security Force

How will Baldwin or Barr protect us from Obama's PERSONAL Security force?

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set," he said. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."
Barack Obama Speech July 2, 2008 Colorado Springs CO
------------------------------------------------

If I could get each of you to think just 30 seconds about this.

Barack Obama said: 'civilian national security force'.

Civilian - Would MOT include military or other Law Enforcement agencies.
National - Would NOT recognize State Boundaries.
Security - Security for what?
Force - This word usually denotes power and authority.

Why does Barack Obama want a Civilian Security Force?
1) Just as powerful as the Military.
2) Just as strong as the Military.
3) Just as well funded as the Military.

What will Barack Obama have this 'Civilian National Security Force' do?

Help in hurricanes or other disasters? - we already have the state National guard.

Some have said 'The National Guard is in Iraq and Afghanistan' but Barack Obama plans to have them home less than halfway through the Obama administration.

If America ignores this threat of an Obama personal 'Security Force' - I believe America is doomed.

Dooh
Patriot act

Homeland security

FISA

Where the hell have you been? When did you speak out about those, wake up that ship of fools sialed long ago.

Retired Geek
You're still advocating a choice between the lesser of two evils - socialist and socialist lite. If you were really a person of principles, you would stand up and be counted as settling for nothing less than what you truly believe, because you get what you settle for. Yes, an Obama administration with a democrat controlled congress will be a disaster, but sometimes it takes a disaster for people to get their priorities straight. Settling for McCain is just enabling the GOP to muddle along without properly evaluating its priorities.

So, hopefully this election will give the GOP a chance to decide whether fostering a favorable business environment and permitting individual freedom is more or less important than preventing moral turpitude. Because Libertarians generally don’t concern ourselves with our neighbors’ personal eccentricities, as long as they’re not harming any unwilling participants, that is a simple choice for us.

Galltegfa

Warnings
No one is attacking another about who they support,but it is important that everyone knows the perils and pitfalls of giving our country over to someone who does not have our best interests at heart.

It would be hard to live with if a fatal mistake is made and we could have helped avoid it and did nothing.

I am not good with words as some are,but no one cares about their country more than I do. If it was possible that I could change one mind,that would be great.

I cannot imagine why Mr. Barr or any other third party candidate would be a party of pulling any votes away from someone who was trying to stop Obama.

It is in all our best interest that he be stopped. If he isn't,you will see that I am right and it won't take long.

the benefits of voting for Barr
If a large percentage of Americans vote for Barr, both parties will be forced to move toward pro-freedom positions. If Obama beats McCain and Barr has a tiny vote count, you're likely to see Obama get his way on his version of brown shirts. But if Barr gets a significant number of votes, bot Republicans and Democrats will shift to pick up those votes. It would be impossible for Obama to implement his version of brown shirts.

Voting for Republicans sends the message that the Clinton, Bush, Obama, McCain kleptocracy and socialist agenda is accepted by the American people. It sends the message that the people only differ on which criminals they want in charge.

Voting for Barr sends the message that the American people will not stand for a 2 party kleptocracy, and that both parties better adjust their agendas toward freedom.

Retired Geek, it's separation of powers.
Congress and the SCOTUS are there to prevent Obama from executing the worst of his policies.

Yes, If the GOP loses the ability to filibuster, we're screwed, but if that happens we're screwed anyway.

The boogy man
Watch out if you don't vote McCain and wear a garlic necklace Count Obama will suck your blood in the middle of the night.

Okay let me think, do I want to suffer under Adolf McCain, or Moabama. No they are not the same, they are completely different monsters.

Barr '08'

Retired Geek
"For a Libertarian society to function successfully, it would require a nation of ideologues. This is an accusation often made of Socialism and Communism, but it is no less accurate here."

What is this about ideologues? I hear this complaint from Liberals and from the likes of Bill O'Reilly. To have political ideas at all is to be ideological. And you, Retired Geek, demonstrated some of your own in these posts, no less than O'Reilly in many of his rants on TV. I would hope people who seriously care about politics would profess to be ideologues.

If You were a Patriot
Bob,
If you were a patriot you would withdraw and ask all your supporters to vote Palin/McCain.
Conservatives don't like McCain, but Obama would be the end of our country as a world power.

With the coming financial collapse if Obama is elected, we must vote Republican out of self preservation. However, over the next four years we must establish a true Conservative Party that reflects traditional values.

Make the R Party the Third Party!
As a long-term libertarian, I'm not overly impressed with Bob Barr as the standard-bearer. But he is so far superior to McCain and Obama, I have a difficult time seeing how any old-line, fiscal conservative could vote against him.

Unless, of course, you're one of those Republican Conservatives whose moral ideals were long ago crusted over with Republican cynicism.

Obama is going to win. Face it, folks. If you are a real conservative, who really believes in small government, vote for Bob Barr, and make the Libertarian Party the standard bearer for small and limited government.

Toss the Republican Party into the ash heap of history--a fate they richly deserve! Or at least, make them weak, fading third party.

not a purist either
Gary, no problem - I was just curious.

I'm more of a pragmatist than a purist also. Even with all his faults, I'd be pleased as punch with another Reagan. I most likely would have voted for any of the 10 original Republican primary candidates other than McCain or Guiliani.

I have to say that even with some of the better candidates, if they had suppored this bailout, I'd probably be thinking 3rd party.

But, unfortunately, that's all water under the bridge.

Not Fair
Gary wrote:
"Okay let me think, do I want to suffer under Adolf McCain, or Moabama. No they are not the same, they are completely different monsters."

That's not fair to either candidate, and comments like that hurt the libertarian cause. John McCain is a genuine American hero, and everybody should acknowledge that. His big government policies are bad. That doesn't make him a monster.

And I think (I could be wrong) Barack Obama is a well intentioned Marxist. I think he really drank Marx's kool-aid. But on the other hand, I'm and troubled by Obama. His attempts to use government power to silence the opposition smack of totalitarianism.

It's one thing to think Marxism is good for society. Those people are just ignorant fools. But's another to realize the damage Marxism will cause and think that critics must be silenced to implement that philosophy anyway. Right now, I willing to put Obama in the first category.

shubi
That party already exists, Libertarian.

Obama will not destroy America, no more than Hitler or Stallin. You so weak that you can not stand for real consevitism, because you are parralysed with fear. I will not be a coward, I will stand for what I believe in, and I do not believe in fear, tested and proven, I have many scars, but few regrets.

shubi says "we must vote Republican
out of self preservation. However, over the next four years we must establish a true Conservative Party that reflects traditional values."

shubi, what makes you think the GOP will become conservative if you keep voting for the liberals they're nominating?

Or - if you mean a new conservative party - what makes you think they'll ever become viable if you keep voting against them? Also, we've already got two perfectly good limited-government parties in the Libertarian and Constitutional party, depending on which flavor you prefer.

The CP and LP differ on the precise role of a small government, but they're in absolute agreement on returning the federal government to its constitutional limitations - so for now I view the CP and LP as allied.

Even if Barr chooses to ignore the CP...



lostinwilderness - well said at 10:09 PM.

True
Yes I erred, they are not monsters, their policies are. Let me make one point here, Hitler was a war hero, his grandmother I am sure loved him. If you were a German who died before 1938, you would have gone to your grave thinking that Adolf was the best thing for your nation.

My earlier statemnet stands retracted, I was out of line, but my point stands.

What the hell is wrong with you people?
--
Retired Geek and scottK and renny and the rest of you so-called "conservatives" are pretty much out of your friggin' minds with this *ENDLESS* crap about how "a vote for Barr is a vote for Obama."

Enough.

Every reader on this thread *KNOWS* that except for a few "battleground" states - like the Geek's Virginia - the fate of every goddamned electoral vote is predestined.

In scottK's Illinois, the Cook County Machine is going to hand your state over to the Mulatto Messiah with absolute reliability.

And, renny, you and I are registered here in New Jersey. There is not a hound's chance in hell of our state's 15 electoral votes going to anyone *BUT* that scum-sucking National Socialist Party sonofabitch.


No chance. Zero. None.


No matter how either scottK or renny or I vote, we can affect *NOTHING* in the presidential election.

You "McCainiac" idiots understand this?

In New Jersey and Illinois and Massachusetts and New York and California, voting for McCain is a *WASTE*.

If you live in a "Blue State," casting your ballot for Crash Test Johnnie accomplishes nothing except....


Except telling the Rockefeller Republicans running the GOP that you're a consenting victim.

That you *LIKE* what they're doing to the Republican Party.

That you're ready to bend over and take it again like this - forever.


Yeah, a vote for Bob Barr is only a "protest vote."

Better by far, you bloody fools, than a completely *WASTED* vote for John "Russ Feingold's B!tch" McCain.

--

What Neither Party Wants You To Know
In case you folks thought I was crazy...
This is scary as Hell, but this is what you're voting for with either of these 2 Socialist parties - a UN Socialist GLOBAL TAX based on the GDP of this nation ostensibly to "eradicate Poverty" - pure Socialist one-world government poppycock! It has already passed the House on a voice vote. It has already passed Joe Biden's Senate Foreign Relations Committee on a voice vote, and it is about to hit the Senate floor when Obama becomes President. Obama sponsored this legislation with BIPARTISAN SUPPORT. He plans to implement it IMMEDIATELY upon becoming President with BIPARTISAN support. They voted for it on a "voice vote" to all give themselves political cover because they are not man enoug hto admit to how sinister they really are. Read it and weep, my fellow countrymen. Then, go to the polls November 4th and flip every damn one of the Socialist scumbags...

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5152

What the Snakes in DC Have Been Up To
While you CINO's, RINO's, and Democrats were distracted with DC's and the MSM's media circus: lipstickgate, wardrobegate, Hillarycare, The Huckster, The Mormon, The Straight BS Express, mudslinging, schoolyard insults, one-liners, photo-ops, mindless drivel debates, here's what the Socialist scum in both parties and the Presidency were up to. It's known as the Global Poverty Act. It has been passing on VOICE VOTES ONLY for political cover! It is a global Socialist UN tax with far-reaching implications such as confiscation of small arms and Kyoto compliance. It is shocking to say the least what these 2 parties have now proven to be capable of. We're talking 845 billion dollars for the Global Poverty Act and it would be a perpetuity tax! In addition it includes a secondary bill for 75 billion that would forgive all outstanding loans from 3rd World countries. The grand sum total for the first year ONLY would be 920 billion dollars - money we do not have at all, but why hasn't anyone besides Glenn Beck told you of such a horrendously evil Socialist Global UN tax??? Both parties DO NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN UP TO because they are trying to end US sovereignty. They have been bought out by the globalist Socialist CEO's in the CFR from Bush on down to both parties in DC. Watch Glenn Beck's video, and when you get mad enough to vote for principle for one day in your life, vote for Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party in 2008. Chuck is the only candidate who will ABOLISH THE UN...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PePbtEABzGk

Depends on your state
I am a registered libertarian, because I believe in the party's values. I believe in self-sufficiency, taking responsibility for one's own actions, the constitution, free-market, etc. Since I live in California, on the left coast, it would make no difference how many times I register and vote for McCain, he's not going to win California. So I can vote Libertarian without even having to consider whether I am wasting my vote. In a swing state, I might vote McCain, just because I believe Obama is extremely dangerous to America.

Tim