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Monday, June 08, 2009
Bill Steigerwald :: Townhall.com Columnist
Chasing Old Ghosts Through the New South
by Bill Steigerwald
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I'm not sure it's politically OK to mention this, now that we've elected President Obama and we're officially in a post-racial age.

But I saw more black people in a recent four-day, 1,600-mile road trip from Atlanta to the Mississippi Delta and back than I have in Pittsburgh in the last year.

The New South, in case any other dumb Yankee besides me hasn't noticed what's been obvious for decades, is far more racially integrated - from top to bottom - than the Old North.

I'm sure this is no newsflash to Georgians, where blacks make up 30 percent of the population, or Mississippians, where blacks comprise 37 percent. But I live in Pittsburgh, the capital city of one of the country's lily-whitest metro regions.

*** Special Offer ***

Nearly 90 percent of us western Pennsylvanians are plain old vanilla Caucasian and about 10 percent are black. Latinos and Asians are almost as demographically rare here as Detroit Redwing fans and Eskimos - sorry, Inuit. And in the southern suburbs where I live you can go weeks without seeing a person of any color except white.

I have good reason to have race on my mind - and good reason for making my recent dash through the South.

I was doing research for a book about an amazing, dangerous and long forgotten act of undercover journalism that was pulled off in May of 1948 by Ray Sprigle, a star reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette who died in 1957.

Fourteen years before John Howard Griffin published his famous book "Black Like Me," Sprigle - at age 61 -- disguised himself as a black man and, as he put it, "ate, slept, traveled and lived black" for four weeks in the Jim Crow South.

In August of 1948, Sprigle, a conservative Republican who hated FDR and won a Pulitzer in 1938 for proving that Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black was a loyal member of the KKK, unleashed his highly charged, 21-part nationally syndicated newspaper series.

Headlined "I Was a Negro in the South for 30 Days," and later repackaged as the 1949 book "In the Land of Jim Crow," the series quickly drew the ire of the Southern press and sparked one of the earliest national media debates about the immorality and un-Americanism of segregation.

Sprigle's trusted guide and wheelman through the South's parallel but unequal black universe was 66-year-old John Wesley Dobbs of Atlanta (1882-1961). Already destined for the history books in 1948, he was a prominent and powerful black civil rights leader and activist in Atlanta who today has a street named after him.

Sprigle and Dobbs spent a week in the Mississippi Delta, which is why on May 18 I found myself tramping through a badly overgrown black cemetery in Lyon, Miss., looking for the "magnificent tomb of white Alabama marble" that Sprigle described in his series.

According to Sprigle, the tomb had been erected in Shufordville Historical Cemetery by a wealthy black Clarksdale dentist, Dr. P.W. Hill, to honor his wife Marjorie and their unborn child.

Both had died on an operating table in a black Memphis hospital 78 miles away. Dr. Hill had sent them north by ambulance in the middle of the night because he knew his wife, who needed an emergency Caesarian section to save her life, would not be admitted under any circumstances to the local (whites-only) Clarksdale hospital.

Just as I was about to give up my search for Dr. Hill's tragic tomb, it emerged from its clump of dense bushes like a Mayan ruin.

Far from gleaming, its white Alabama marble was soiled and discolored and its heavy metal door was off and leaning against an inside wall. Inside were six marble vaults, including one carved with "Margie Hill, Born October 30, 1904; Died October 10, 1939."

When Dr. Hill proudly showed his newly erected mausoleum to Sprigle and Dobbs 61 Mays ago, Sprigle wrote, Dr. Hill regarded it "only as his tribute to the ones he loved." But Sprigle, who by then had seen as much of Jim Crow's separate and unequal domain as he could stomach, was not so naïve.

In his series he called Dr. Hill's tomb "a monument to the cold-blooded cruelty of the white man; to the brutal mandate of a white world that black men and women must die rather than be permitted to defile a cot or an operating table in a white hospital with their black skins."

I have no idea what Dr. Hill's neglected and desecrated tomb would symbolize to Ray Sprigle today - if he could find it - or what the ghosts of Sprigle and Dobbs would make of the New & Improved South.

But they'd obviously be mighty pleased and proud to learn that Jim Crow, the system of legal oppression that appeared so invincible to them in 1948, has been dead and gone for decades -- and that marble monuments like Dr. Hill's no longer have to be built for its victims.

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About The Author
Bill Steigerwald, born and raised in Pittsburgh, is a former L.A. Times copy editor and free-lancer who also worked as a docudrama researcher for CBS-TV in Hollywood before becoming a reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and a columnist Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Bill Steigerwald recently retired from daily newspaper journalism..
 
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Yankees
"I'm sure this is no newsflash to Georgians, where blacks make up 30 percent of the population, or Mississippians, where blacks comprise 37 percent..."

So???? In 1860 Mississippi was 60% black and much of the Mississippi Delta is 70%+, and Jefferson County is still nearly 90% black.

But go to say Fanin or Union County, Georgia and blacks make up less than 1% of the population. If you live in the south that had lots of slaves (like Jefferson County, Mississippi or Hancock County, Georgia), you are going to have lots of black people, but if you live in areas that didn't (like Union County) you aren't.

And is there a point to this column, if there is I seemed to have missed it.


Also
Can TH please hire another photo editor? What does this photo have to do with race and the South? The photos picked for the column rarely ever have anything to do with the actual subject of the column, it is as if they take a giant bullent board filled with random photos, take a guy, have him drink about a case of beer and blind fold him and spin him around and then point him toward the board and have him throw darts and the one he hits gets selected.

Steigerwald wrote
"Nearly 90 percent of us western Pennsylvanians are plain old vanilla Caucasian and about 10 percent are black. Latinos and Asians are almost as demographically rare here as Detroit Redwing fans and Eskimos - sorry, Inuit. And in the southern suburbs where I live you can go weeks without seeing a person of any color except white."

Last I checked, Pittsburgh's airport is located in the southern suburbs--and gets a rather steady turnover of Asians (visitors to Penn Hills and Shirdi-Sai temples).

I'll agree...
in some respects.

Living in Atlanta, I'm very surprised about how integrated we are compared to other parts of the country that "should" be ahead of us progressively.

However, going around to various parts of Atlanta, there is still a huge separation in terms of areas where different races live.

North of the city, in the suburbs, there is a huge white population. Down in the city, as well as south, there is a huge white population. Socially, all of the races get along very well, but there is still a sense of "north = white, south = black".

In the suburb I live in, people shake and talk when there is talk of blacks or hispanics moving to the area. It's like they think the world is going to end if these cats move into the same size house they do.

Agreed Akagi,
What does a picture of a bunch of gunships have to do with the topic at hand?

Steigerwald
Having just read two books on the justice system
in Texas in regard to race (Hispanics are also
included), I am not impressed. It appears to
be nearly as repressive, with a little more
subtlety than in the 1950's. They don't lynch
anymore, they will just trump up charges and
let you rot in jail. Ain't progress grand.

Jason in Ga
You should set the example and move to the black section of town. You know, show them that they don't have to be afraid of those cats.

Those are not gunships in the photo...
They are Marine One and two other Marine helicopters, most likely carrying staff for the Obamessiah.

Tammy in Il
Maybe some day, the south can match the grand racial progress of Illinoise

Jason--Part I
"North of the city, in the suburbs, there is a huge white population. Down in the city, as well as south, there is a huge white population. Socially, all of the races get along very well, but there is still a sense of "north = white, south = black".

Gwinnett and Cobb have large Hispanic populations. Gwinnett has a large Asian population and Douglas a large black population. Gwinnett is one of the most diverse counties in the state.

"In the suburb I live in, people shake and talk when there is talk of blacks or hispanics moving to the area. It's like they think the world is going to end if these cats move into the same size house they do."

And looking and what has happened in Gwinnett and Clayton and Douglas and parts of Cobb, I think their fear is well justified. I am a refugee from Gwinnett myself. My once fairly nice neighborhood which was probably 90% white became rather unnice once the mostly owners became mostly section 8 renters and went from mostly white to mostly Hispanic. Driving though it from time to time just to see how bad it has become it is like a different place. Hard to imagine how fast a neighborhood can change and sink like a stone. Discover Mills and the Gwinnett transit system can be blamed for much of this, just as Cobb's can be on why many of Six Flag employees are now gang members and not middle class kids from Kennesaw.


Dave
The South will never match the enlightened response to racism like the North.

Do you really think that statist's will try and dissolve Affirmative Action and the soft bigotry of low expectations? Who would they have to feel superior to?

Jason--Part II
As for how well race relations are...just see how you'd be welcomed in some of Atlanta's more "blacker" neighborhoods. Like that poor bartender in Grant Park I'd imagine. And then you have the mayor and two "civil rights" icons saying if the white GOP candidate won election as chairman to the Fulton County Commission, the waterhoses and police dogs would be back and vote as your life depended on it. Funny, Fulton County had since the 1990s had a chairman who was white and a member of the GOP and I don't seem to recall any police dogs and waterhoses being used on people in Roswell or Atlanta, did you?

The white police officer who said he wanted to hit Her Majesty, the mayor with a baseball bat...now the mayor says "I wonder if there something else there..." and that something else is...what racism? I bet she wouldn't have reacted the same if the officer had been black. The race problems in Atlanta is mostly due to black bigotry toward whites and not the other way around.

You can have Atlanta and its inner ring suburbs as far as I am concerned. Perhaps make it their own state. Just make sure my county isn't left outside of it. And not to be too prying, what county do you live in?

Incredible Story
And that story is even more incredible when you think about how many Blacks stayed in such a disgusting and vile region of the country -- when they could have taken their few dollars and moved to all the wonderful places up North.

I guess Black folks were such gluttons for punishment, that they refused to move North for the great freedoms and equality to be had there.

Yep, that "Old South" was just a terrible place for Blacks -- I am just stunned that so many are still here.

Jason
That is Marine One and it is a utility helicopter not a attack helicopter and in any event has nothing to do with this article.

But yes, I agree with Dave, move to Jonesboro or SE Atlanta, Bankhead Highway some place like that.

Not sure how long you've been here but in the 1980s, Clayton (the county, not the nice rural mountain hamlet in Rabun County) was a rather nice place to be...the schools were functional, the crime low, And now? Hell on earth. Some places in Gwinnett and Cobb are not much better and Douglas as well. And it isn't "whitey" causing the implosion of these counties but the black and brown folk that your white neighbors are fearing. Yes, sadly, they have good sense to be afraid. If a person was moving to the Atlanta area from say Sichuan province and wanted a palce that was safe, had good schools, etc and knew nothing about the area how could he find out? Perhaps a real estate agent could tell him but an easier way would be to find the areas with the large populations of blacks and Hispanics and then avoid them like the plague.

Like to compare the crimes rates for Forsyth or Dawson or Cherokee or Fayette and then Clayton, Dekalb, Atlanta and Gwinnett?

Want to compare any APS high school with East or West Cobb or Peachtree City?

Of course pointing all this out makes me a racist.

Racism: South/North
Several years ago I worked for a company that had its headquarters in the North (Pensylvania). I live in Texas. Their head bookkeeper was a Black lady. She told me she had visited a couple of Southern company sites and had been amazed at how the whites treated her. She said that she couldn't believe how nice the white people were and how she was treated the same as they were. That was really interesting to me since the politicians still insist that the South is far more racist than the North. Yet she was remarking about how much nicer it was in the South than where she lived all her life.

I invited her to visit Texas. I think she would have stayed.

Akagi
Are you up by the lake near me?

Ex Pittsburgher
To svpallava: the main Pittsburgh airport is located in the western suburbs.

The column does support much of the hypocrisy of northern liberals. I grew up in Texas, which became less segregated as I reached adulthood. But Pittsburgh is all white or all black with nothing in between from my decade of experience in the area. The suburbs of DC where I reside are mixed Asian, white, Hispanics, a few blacks, and lots of muslims. Dare say in those elitist northeastern areas, it is much more segregated than in those nasty redneck Southern areas. But why would liberal hypocrisy not be normal for those folks?

ghosts
reason you saw so many blacks on your tour was because the Americans were at work.

Tammy
"I am not impressed. It appears to
be nearly as repressive, with a little more
subtlety than in the 1950's."

Go down to Clayton County or Douglas County and see these trumped up charges. In 2007 Clayton had 35 murders and Dawson? Zero. Cherokee? Zero. Bartow? Zero. Forsyth? Zero.

There are many places safer than Clayton in Iraq.

Terry
I am up by a lake, but probably not the lake you think of...mine starts with A and yours with L no doubt.




45caliber
The overwhelming vast majority of White people have always treated Blacks well -- that's why there was no mass exodus of Blacks from the "Old South".

The stories of Blacks being lynched and otherwise mistreated have been grossly exaggerated. And where they were mistreated, it was a relative handful of people doing it.

The majority of people in the United States can be manipulated into believing anything. All it takes is Academia and the Media making the mountains from molehills. And so folks today view the Old South with the picture image of: "Mississippi Burning."

Akagi
You are right. BTW...Ya'll got most of your water back?

terry
I live about 15 miles from the lake, but I drive past it every day and it's above full pool. The water off in the trees. I was up at Red Top a week or so ago and the little pines the sprouted during the drought have died because of being underwater.


Terry
So I guess your county starts with F or maybe H.


Tammy
I happen to live in Texas, and have lived in two different cities here. I haven't read the studies you mentioned so I can't comment too much about them. However, in the many years I have lived here I have no recollection of having ever seen the type of thing you describe as being typical of Texas. I'm sure that it probably does happen somewhere if one looks hard enough, just as it no doubt does in other states, but I believe that such is relatively rare. In fact reverse racism in the justice system may be just as likely to happen as what you have described.

As to your comment "Ain't progress grand", I am old enough to have lived in both the "old" south and the "new" south (in 3 southern states), I suggest you stick with improving Illinois. We have made lots of progress thank you.

Akagi
Yes, we are the county with the "reputation". And it's funny how there are a lot of folks who still think it's that way -- when it's really nothing but a playground for the millionaires. Not one of them myself, but there's a bunch around me.

JIM CROW DEMOCRATS
Jim Crow democrats celebrate having a minority president, whether or not he was born in the United States. I believe he was born in the US but received educational benefits as if was an immigrant. I truely believe it occurred at Columbia because he was attentive in all other higher education situations. There is footage of his California college experience and his law school days. In the largest media exposure in the world he said nothing for years. Jim Crow democrats calls this racism non discrimanation. It is discriminatory to thre person he stole the scholarship from, and the citizens of new York state and the United States if federal funds were used in the scheme of defraudment.

One more thing
One more thing our Yankee pal Steigerwald forgot to mention is that streets like John Wesley Dobbs Avenue and the like weren't always called that. Wesley Dobbs Avenue was once called Houston Street and named for the city's first treasurer, other streets named after Confederate generals have also be changed (e.g. Rev. Dr. Joseph E. Lowery Boulevard (who is still alive...should roads be named for living people?) from Ashby Street named for General Ashby.

On that note, you also notice that a once main area of Six Flags the Confederate States of America no longer exists.

Old North?
Wasn't there an "Old North" as well? I think so. I think it was a place where Blacks had a lot of paper rights. But being that they were relegated to the factory shiite jobs, lived in the slums and didn't have two nickels to rub together -- they couldn't even eat in the back of a restaurant, much less at the front counter.

But I am sure that there were tons of Blacks representing themselves in government, right? I mean, there were no "Jim Crowe" laws around so I am sure there were plenty of Black Statesmen sitting around the governing table.

And besides freezing to death in the filthy slums with their pockets full of rights, how was life going for the Blacks up there? I still just can't figure out why so many Blacks from South didn't take their few dollars and get away North to escape all the atrocities that were taking place down South.

Terry
Years ago my HS football team played your HS football team (back then you only had one...No NFHS and SFHS, just FCHS)and one of our black jr. varsity players went to the rest room and encountered some of the good students at FCHS and they weren't very supportive of his presence. Lucky for him some other players showed up to escourt him out. I recall Oprah and Al Sharpton and that idiotic march too.

The only rep. I know about that county now is it is where all the rich folks ran to when the taxes in Fulton got so high. Maybe if they created Milton, they'd all move back. When I was planning my escape from G-land, I thought about Dawson but never know when they'll bring back the Northern Arc and moved outside its planned reach, plus 400 you know...drive you crazy.

Terry
And let's not forget it was the northern states, like Tammy's Illinois that first enacted the black codes. In fact, Illinois' was so draconian that it made it illegal for blacks to even settle in the state.

Why so much BLACK NEWS???
Why are we inundated with black news??? these days???? What about other minorities??? We hardly ever hear about Asian-Americans and what life is like for them. And many other groups...it's always blacks, blacks, blacks. Excuse me, Af-ri-can-A-mer-i-cans...7 syllables. It's a mouthful. Please explain why they are always in the news and it's usually them complaining about something. Here in Louisiana, we have more black per capita than any other state, or so I read recently. I believe North Dakota has the fewest. Blacks I know do not like cold weather....that's prob'ly why.

Why Is the "heavy metal door" Off?
I live in Clarksdale, Mississippi. The Lyon, Mississippi mentioned above is right next to Clarksdale. I have been to the old Shufordville Cemetery more times than I can remember.

Mr. Steigerwald writes:

"Far from gleaming, its white Alabama marble was soiled and discolored and its heavy metal door was off and leaning against an inside wall."

Why is the door off?

Many years back, a group of young vandals broke the door. The vandals were from Memphis. They were also black.

Karen
"We hardly ever hear about Asian-Americans and what life is like for them. And many other groups...it's always blacks..."

No media in the corner, no civil rights whores in front of the cameras (e.g. no Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton). Asian Pacific American Heritage Month was last month did you get flooded with spots on what this or that Asian did in history, various programs on Asian-American history? Of course not, but each February we are flooded with what this black did or what that black did. In September-October, there will be Hispanic Heritage Month and again you don't get the flood...well maybe in Texas or California, but you don't get it here and Georgia has a large Hispanic population too.

Karen
The reason you don't get blacks in the upper midwest is the same reason you don't have blacks in Appalachia. No slaves and no large cities with jobs that would have attracted blacks from the deep south in the early 20th century.

Being hot as hell in the summer and getting 60 below in the winter doesn't help either.

Akagi
Historically, Illinois was settled by two very different groups of settlers. The earlier arrivals (beginning right after the Revolution) were Southerners who came either across the Ohio River from Deep-South states or floated on flatboats west on the Ohio River from Virginia, the Carolinas, and Kentucky. As soon as trails were made, the oxcarts followed. These people settled in Southern Illinois where they recreated the Jim Crow communities they had known in the South and, even today, the atmosphere there is pretty Southern.

Northern Illinois was settled mostly after the Erie Canal was completed in 1825. Folks who came tended more to be Congregationalist than Primitive Baptist and were more socially liberal. They were anti-slaveholding. Northern and Southern Illinois disagreed and fought over many social questions.

Today we see the same split when politicians who appeal to Chicago and the northern part of the state may be anathema south of Springfield, and the opposite is also true.

Dear Akagi in GA
Thanx for the info. Yes, I can see yr point about how media whores keep the focus on blacks, blacks, blacks...I mean af-ro-a-mer-i-cans...I demand to be called a Eur-o-pe-an-A-mer-i-can cause it's EIGHT syllables and harder to say than white. But don't you think people are getting sick of all the never-ending drivel about blacks and their never-ending problems and never-ending blaming those nasty white people? Maybe because media has gone way beyond overboard that people will protest sooner...Enuf is ENUF!!!

Dear Lilly
Very interesting history in yr post. I have good friends who are in a Congregationalist Church in Minneapolis. Are all those churches liberal??? I've never been to one. Were there many in Minnesota?? My grandparents immigrated to northern MN from Norway/Sweden, therefore my interest.

Lilly
The black codes in Illinois pre-date Jim Crow. And the main proponent to banning black residence in the state was John Logan, who years after became a general in the Union Army and would become known as "Black Jack" Logan and was one of Sherman's key lieutenants and was the one who commissioned the painting now known as the Cyclorama.

I doubt you can say he was all that supportive of the Southern cause as he supported the impeachment of Andrew Johnson.

Huh?
"Gay conservative Location: VA
Reply # 22
Date: Jun 8, 2009 - 4:11 PM EST
...The column does support much of the hypocrisy of northern liberals....
********

WHAT???!!! It makes no claim like that at all. Frankly, I'm with Akagi: I don't see a point other than, "I took a road trip to the South and was surprised."

No knowledgeable American, liberal or conservative, continues to claim the Old South is the exclusive or even primary bastion of racism in the US. There is racism everywhere, and there is pluralism, too. Atlanta arguably has the greatest support for and concentration of the black middle class. Boston is notoriously racist, as is Pittsburg. Many communities in AZ and TX are intolerant of Hispanics, and in some centuries-old Hispanic villages in the northern mountains of my home state, New Mexico, English isn't spoken and Anglos are made to feel decidedly unwelcome.

The common denominator, in my experience, is ignorance: where people have low educational attainment and are isolated/insulated, there's a greater propensity to fear "the other" irrationally.

We need to get over this canard that racism is a regional issue. It is a personal and political problem in this country that can and does exist everywhere.


Oh Lord, Please Get Out More!
Re: karen Location: LA
Reply # 3
Date: Jun 8, 2009 - 6:17 PM EST
Dear Lilly
Very interesting history in yr post. I have good friends who are in a Congregationalist Church in Minneapolis. Are all those churches liberal???
********************

You cannot be serious?? Congregationalism is a mainline Protestant tradition that has its roots in the earliest (Anglo) days in America. Many of the most important, visible Americans in the early days of our nation were Congregationalists.

"Are all those churches liberal?" The question has no meaning: do you understand why?

I worshiped for years and was married in a Congregational church; but the congregation itself--the people attending--were probably 50/50 Dems and Republicans. This congregation was in a wealthy neighborhood of Seattle (I didn't live there, but had originally attended as a professional musician), so may have had a higher proportion of "conservatives" than churches in the same denomination located in inner cities.

We really have to work harder to get away from meaningless, poisonous labels.


As usual, follow the money
There is money to be had in maintaining racism in the minds of the people, not the least of which is government funding.

Tibby

DEAR MARK iN NM
Thanx for bringing me up to speed on Congregationalism. I've been in many different churches, but never that one. To respond to yr remarks about racism, I think one of the reasons we're hearing so much about racism, is because the blacks keep bringing it up and complain and blame constantly. They have been cut so much slack and so many billions have been spent on their care and feeding, but they have no gratitude for what the gov't has done for them. I live in the highest per capita black state and have never seen a white person be rude or dismissive to a black person. (Frequently though, I have witnessed the reverse.) Yet, here in La. we are deluged with black crime...carjackings, murders, rapes, home invasions, muggings, etc. And I'm not exaggerating when I say deluged. If there's racism, its blacks against whites. Better to drop the word racist, because it has lost its meaning these days. It's been hijacked by blacks.

To TIBBY
Great point you posted! Money to be had by screaming racism. Now I get it. Good thinking on yr part. Thank you. It explains a whole lot of b.s. going on in our country.

In America we live where we want to
People can live anywhere they want to. If they don't want to live in Pittsburg so what. What are we suppose to do beg them to come live where there isn't more than a 25% black population. Living in the south doesn't require shoveling snow and bundling up. Some peopole don't like to do that and guess what they come in all colors.

It's the same for church. People go where they wnat to when they want to.

It's interesting that our economy is tanking, our liberties are being trounced and this is what takes up space.

Bigot=Not Agreeing with Left
And other countries have much worse problems than the US ever had just try being a jew in the mid-east.

Cons sernuts Or what ever
Just because someone doesn't agree with your political view, doesn't mean they are bigoted. As a matter of fact, your statement is in itself bigoted. There are a great many black conservatives and I doubt they are bigoted because of that. Perhaps you are like the original Democrats that were from the deep south and were members of the KKK?

Akaqi-GA
I'll try to "talk around" Location, OK// Are Usaying that the Lake behind Bu at "full Pool''? My Uncle died in F County last month and I was unable to come down..He had moved his big boat late last year I think.. Just wondering>> CHEERS

Terry and the Incredible Story
Actually, huge numbers of blacks took their few dollars and left the South. Over 750,000 blacks left the South in the 1920s. Nearly 50% of black males between the ages of 15-34 left Georgia during that period.

Why?

Deteriorating race relations.
Depressed Southern agriculture (boll weevil)
Growing Northern economy.

Some consequences thatfollowed: On the one hand, employment in Northern factories increased overall incomes for blacks. On the other hand, the North saw the rise of black ghettos. Harlem had a white majority in 1900. The perceived backwardness of rural Southern blacks contributed to the rise of segregation laws and the rise of urban ghettos.

During WW2, another migration began. Four million blacks moved North between 1940-1970, mostly seeking better economic opportunity.

joel the loon
"Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 4:54 AM EST
Race vs. Culture
As we are taught by Scripture that we are all God is the Father of our Spirits, it does not matter what race our neighbor is..."

When did this change? Not all that long ago, weren't blacks considered differently? You definitely seem prejudiced against Muslims from all the rants you post everywhere

joel the loon
"Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 8:24 AM EST
Islam is NOT a Race!
Islam is NOT a Race. It is a political/religious ideology. You cannot CHOOSE to be ethnically Jewish. You CAN choose to be Islamic, or not."

You CAN choose to become a Jew just as you can choose to join Islam.

"...I don't know anyone that considered blacks not to be Children of God at any time."

But...what was the teaching in 1950?

Akagi
The "reputation" that I was referring to, is of the kind your teammate experienced going to the restroom.

And I personally that they don't ever move here -- for a practical and sensible reason. Overall, we have a pretty decent place to live. And one of the reasons for that, is that the overwhelming vast majority of people here are White.

I don't mean that in a racist way that you might think. Because we are almost all White, when you have the trouble-makers and low-lifes that might want to hang-out in our parks and other recreation areas and the like -- selling their dope and/or just generally being up to no good -- the Sheriff's Dept. can take whatever necessary steps need to be taken to run them off, arrest them for their behavior or what have you. And they can do this because those low-lifes would be "White".

If good and decent Black folks move in -- so will their low-lifes and all the dynamics will change. No longer will we be able keep our parks and other places safe for our children, because the first time law enforcement runs-off a group of Blacks who are hanging-out and up to no good, there will be a discrimination lawsuit and here we go! And before long, our recreation facilities and other public venues will be just like so many around the country -- overrun with the filth and scum (Black and White) and our public facilities will be unusable for the rest of us.

There's a practical reason for doing things that don't always fit nicely into the little "racism" box.

The Deep South

Wishes they would all go back to
Chicago.

secularsquare
I never stated that no Blacks had ever left the South. In fact, there are Blacks who leave the South today. There are also Whites who leave the North today -- are they escaping "racism" in the North?

In all those years that you mentioned in your post, the highest percentage of Black that ever left: 10 percent.

The overall point that I am trying to make, is that if the "Old South" was basically a real-life version of "Mississippi Burning" as it is and has been continually portrayed, then one of a few things would have had to of been the case:

1. The death of Blacks would have decimated their population.
2. Blacks would have had a mass exodus from the South.
3. A combination of the two above.

You can't portray a time and a region of the country where there was all this supposed widespread hatred, violence and persecution of Blacks, yet even with the migration of some to the North -- the Black population in the South continued to grow!

The overwhelming vast majority of White people have never hated Black folks and have never harmed a hair on a Black person's hair. But because a relative few people did some horrible things to Blacks, we have to act as if there's some inherent racism in White folks -- that we have to forever struggle to overcome.

The folklore and legends of this crap is simply preposterous!

Hal
You can choose the Jewish Faith, but you can not choose to have Jewish Blood. Islam is a religion, but is not a race. Why do you think the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jewish people?

Come on Hal!
"You CAN choose to become a Jew just as you can choose to join Islam"-Hal

You can choose to observe the Jewish faith and become a religious jew. Jews, however are a race. Just as Caucasians and Negroes are a race. There is no Islamic race. The traditional Muslims (ie, Middle Eastern) are predominately made up of Arabs and Persians. Again not races but nationalities. I believe you are being disingenuous in your response, but if not, maybe learn a little bit about Judaism vs. Jewishness?

terry
"Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 9:56 AM EST...You can't portray a time and a region of the country where there was all this supposed widespread hatred, violence and persecution of Blacks, yet even with the migration of some to the North -- the Black population in the South continued to grow!...The folklore and legends of this crap is simply preposterous!..."

You sound like someone denying the holocaust. The problem you and they have is that there is too much of film evidence to deny. Furthermore, there are still far too many of us still alive that can testify to the truth. You are very wrong in your beliefs. Please read up on the era with documentaries and reports. It was a horrible sin against our history and provided incredible propaganda aid and comfort to the Soviet Union during the Cold War

Don't deny get the facts


rjas2330
"Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 10:50 AM EST
Come on Hal!
"You CAN choose to become a Jew just as you can choose to join Islam"-Hal

You can choose to observe the Jewish faith and become a religious jew. Jews, however are a race. Just as Caucasians and Negroes are a race..."

Wrong LOL The Jews are an ethnic group not a race. Judaism is a religion not a race or ethnic group

"...There is no Islamic race. The traditional Muslims (ie, Middle Eastern) are predominately made up of Arabs and Persians. Again not races but nationalities. I believe you are being disingenuous in your response, but if not, maybe learn a little bit about Judaism vs. Jewishness?"

I did and still do I live in a heavily Jewish neighborhood

Segregation Can Be Good
I lived in a totally white town for 3 years. I am going back because I miss the lack of crime. low taxes and pleasant surroundings.

Hal
We weren't discussing Judaism, we were discussing race. You said to Joel that you could choose to become a Jew. That is wrong. You can choose to be converted to Judaism. You can no sooner become a jew, (a member of the semitic race) than you can become negroid by listening to rap and wearing your pants around your knees.
As to where you live, congratulations. I am very happy for you. I have no idea what bearing it has on our conversation, however. Is it like saying "I'm not a racist, I have plenty of black friends"?

Roy
The Lake behind the dam that begins with the letter B and forms the lake the begins with the letter L is NOT at full pool but now pretty close from being down some 20+ feet not too long ago to down I think 4 feet. The other large lake which I liove near is at or above full pool. Smaller lake and thus takes much less to fill.

Terry:

I understand. If you had to pick to live in F county or Clayton County which one would a sane person pick? Not Clayton for sure.

Hal
I don't give a rat's behind about "documentaries and reports" -- other than to say they are some of the leading causes of the childish folklore. Unfortunately though, those kinds of things work. And they work on the masses because the masses cannot think and reason for themselves and are thus easily manipulated.

Plus the fact, that for some strange reason that I could not possibly explain -- the masses love to believe in evil. It takes nothing at all to get the masses to believe in something bad, horrible, terrifying and evil -- it's as easy as pie.

Tell a bunch of ghost stories about hooded KKK running around burning houses and lynching Black men in front of their screaming wife and children and it makes for the kind of gruesome horrors that folks are attracted to.

And have someone make a documentary that can show where that might have happened a time or two and that's all people need, to believe in the folklore of the widespread hatred and violence against Blacks back in the: "Old South".


LIVIVG TRU RACE RIOTS BOTH SOUTH/NORTH
having been born and raised "up north" AND MOVED TO "THE OL' SOUTH" As a teenager, there is a mighty big difference in how people "of color" ARE TREATED. STILL IS I GUESS. UP NORTH THE WHITES IN MANY CITIES ARE VERY OUT SPOKEN= IE RACIST HATRED - WHEREAS IN THE 'NEW SOUTH' MANY FOLKS- THE MAJORITY OF EDUCATED THINKING FOLKS- WHITE AND BLACK - ARE POLITE AND DO NOT SPEAK OF HATRED OF THE MIXED RACES WE HAVE - HISPANIC, ASIAN, AFRICAN AMERICAN.
THANK YOU MARY - BIRMINGHAM,AL

joel the loon
"Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 11:25 AM EST
Children of God
""...I don't know anyone that considered blacks not to be Children of God at any time."

But...what was the teaching in 1950?"


Exactly the same. My church has ALWAYS taught that God is the Father of ALL human spirits sent to this world."

But were they treated as the same as "white Mormons" in text and ritual? You are tap dancing loon

rjas2330
"Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 11:54 AM EST
Hal
We weren't discussing Judaism, we were discussing race. You said to Joel that you could choose to become a Jew. That is wrong..."

I was discussing religion not race. Someone who believes in Judaism is a Jew

"...You can no sooner become a jew, (a member of the Semitic race) than you can become negroid by listening to rap and wearing your pants around your knees..."

"Semitic
Sem*it"ic\, a. Of or pertaining to Shem or his descendants; belonging to that division of the Caucasian race which includes the Arabs, Jews, and related races. [Written also Shemitic.]

Semitic language, a name used to designate a group of Asiatic and African languages, some living and some dead, namely: Hebrew and Ph[oe]nician, Aramaic, Assyrian, Arabic, Ethiopic (Geez and Ampharic). --Encyc. Brit.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

The Jews and Arabs are Caucasian get over it and who cares for goodness sake.

"...As to where you live, congratulations. I am very happy for you. I have no idea what bearing it has on our conversation, however. Is it like saying "I'm not a racist, I have plenty of black friends"?"

No not at all it was in reaction to you saying I should learn about Jewish history and religion - I do every day

terry
Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 12:02 PM EST
Hal
I don't give a rat's behind about "documentaries and reports" -- other than to say they are some of the leading causes of the childish folklore. Unfortunately though, those kinds of things work. And they work on the masses because the masses cannot think and reason for themselves and are thus easily manipulated..."

If you are not one of the masses what are you? It is you trying to sell the foolish folklore. I was there then in the day.

"...Tell a bunch of ghost stories about hooded KKK running around burning houses and lynching Black men in front of their screaming wife and children and it makes for the kind of gruesome horrors that folks are attracted to..."

My own children have seen cross burnings and KKK rallies and that was in the late 70's

"... to believe in the folklore of the widespread hatred and violence against Blacks back in the: "Old South"."

If anything the truth is far more harsh

Hal
"I was discussing religion not race. Someone who believes in Judaism is a Jew" Hal-6/9 1:27 pm.

"You definitely seem prejudiced against Muslims from all the rants you post everywhere" Hal-6/9 8:18 am (directed toward Joel.)

"Great confusion of thought has arisen through the indiscriminate misuse of the term Semitic. It is popularly considered that there is, and always has been, a Semite race. The Arabs and the modern Jews (and therefore the ancient Hebrews) have been awarded this racial classification by authorities" Ethnology, http://www.ensignmessage.com

My original point was to your characterization of Joel as "prejudiced" because he is against Islam. Most of the time when a liberal says that they mean racist. It is difficult to be racist against a religion. If I am mischaracterizing you, my apologies. I just don't like to see people besmirched in that manner, especially on erroneous information.

Dave,
That's a good idea.

However, moving to the south side of the city would ultimately prove to be very detrimental.

I live on the north side, and also work on the north side. If you've ever been in morning traffic in the metro Atlanta area you would know how ridiculous it is. The distance between my work and southside Atlanta is at least 30 miles, turning my trip from maybe 15 minutes in the morning to about 2 hours with the various traffic jams that occur during rush hour, which begins about 5:30am during the week.

Going home in the afternoon would be as ridiculous.


Akagi,
I go to East Point and West End quite a bit because a buddy of mine lives down there. I never have any trouble down there.

The two instances I've encountered crime related to me personally was I got mugged down at the Masquerade off of North Ave, and that guy was white, then another time I was involved in a robbery (victim of, not planning) at a job I used to work at, and that was in Dunwoody...yeah...Dunwoody, but that was over 7 years ago.

When I was talking about North Atlanta, I was referring to the Buckhead/Dunwoody/Sandy Springs/Alpharetta area.

Dunwoody recently got it's down police force. I don't know if you've ever been to Dunwoody, but crikey, you couldn't ask for a safer neighborhood. I think that Dekalb County was doing a decent enough job, but no, people are paranoid. They complain about police interfering, but they scream for more. Truth be told, you couldn't ask for a safer neighborhood.

To answer your question, I live in the Sandy Springs area.

As to the helicopters
Sorry, the look almost like Hinds at that angle.

rjas2330
"Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 3:18 PM EST
Hal
"I was discussing religion not race. Someone who believes in Judaism is a Jew" Hal-6/9 1:27 pm.

"You definitely seem prejudiced against Muslims from all the rants you post everywhere" Hal-6/9 8:18 am (directed toward Joel.)

"Great confusion of thought has arisen through the indiscriminate misuse of the term Semitic. It is popularly considered that there is, and always has been, a Semite race..."

Not by anyone I know whenever it was used it referred to language there has never been any doubt or discussion that it was not Caucasian

"... The Arabs and the modern Jews (and therefore the ancient Hebrews) have been awarded this racial classification by authorities"..."

Not reputable scholars

"...My original point was to your characterization of Joel as "prejudiced" because he is against Islam. Most of the time when a liberal says that they mean racist. It is difficult to be racist against a religion..."

No I meant prejudiced as displayed by his posts. We are are going to be blends in the not too distant future so race is of little import.

"...If I am mischaracterizing you, my apologies..."

Accepted


Mary
I don't doubt a word you say. There are more Liberals in the North than in the South. And most Liberals hate minorities. Minorities are just pawns and battering-rams that Liberals like to use to promote their Socialists ideas.

And the truth about the "Old South" is that Blacks were moving closer and closer, little by little -- into the mainstream. Going from a slave to mainstream does not happen overnight of course, but in the roughly 100 years after Slavery, Blacks had made a lot of progress -- all on their own.

Do we ever wonder why, in the discussion of Black History, that there are only 3 timeframes discussed: Present, Civil Rights era and Slavery? Rarely, if ever, is the 100 years between Slavery and Civil Rights ever discussed. And the reason for it, is because Blacks had made alot of progress as I mentioned. And to highlight that timeframe, does not fit the template of the poor Blacks who are incapable of making on their own; victims of racial hatred and basically the little downtrotten "colored" folks that have to be rescued by the White Liberal with his government handouts.

Civil Rights was designed to STOP the progress of Blacks -- not promote it. And White Liberals have been peeing on Black folks ever since -- so as to keep them in the slums and ghettos and to ensure that they never make it into mainstream America.

terry wrong again
"Date: Jun 9, 2009 - 4:44 PM EST
Mary
I don't doubt a word you say. There are more Liberals in the North than in the South. And most Liberals hate minorities...."

Oh dear and so many minorities are liberals tooo may I ask where you get your data?


"...And the truth about the "Old South" is that Blacks were moving closer and closer, little by little -- into the mainstream. Going from a slave to mainstream does not happen overnight of course, but in the roughly 100 years after Slavery, Blacks had made a lot of progress -- all on their own."

No actually they did not. Sadly the decadent South enslaved them and they had to be freed by war and then they were viciously suppressed and state sponsored segregation had to be ended at the point of a bayonet by federal troops.

"...Do we ever wonder why, in the discussion of Black History, that there are only 3 timeframes discussed: Present, Civil Rights era and Slavery? Rarely, if ever, is the 100 years between Slavery and Civil Rights ever discussed...."

When I was in school and college that era was very well covered perhaps it was the poor southern schooling?

"...does not fit the template of the poor Blacks who are incapable of making on their own;..."

This was EXACTLY the language used to defend state sponsored segregation by southerners and their religions

"...Civil Rights was designed to STOP the progress of Blacks -- not promote it...."

Do you belong to a white supremacist group?

Hal
"No actually they did not. Sadly the decadent South enslaved them and they had to be freed by war and then they were viciously suppressed and state sponsored segregation had to be ended at the point of a bayonet by federal troops."

A war which had little to do with slavery and everything to do with the Union. read Lincoln's letter to Greeley sometime. And the Midwest and West supressed their rights too--the case that overturned Segregation was from Kansas.


Jason
Dunwoody has always been a nice area...so is the area around Emory, but try living in SW Dekalb at some point and look at Clayton, plenty of crime there and Buckhead has been flooded with crime for years now. Smash and grab, murders, you name it. But Dekalb (thanks to the SW) has the highest murder rate in the entire Atlanta region followed by Clayton.

Say, want to compare the crime rate in Dawson or Forsyth to the West End or East point...I wonder which is higher? I don't really consider I-285 and Georgia 400 all that north. Cumming and Dawsonville is north.




Jason
"However, moving to the south side of the city would ultimately prove to be very detrimental."

And moving to Clayton as well as many parts of Henry and some parts of Fayette would be pretty detrimental to you as well and not because of the traffic. If you were to go south, I'd pick Coweta, Butts, Spaulding or Lamar.

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