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Monday, January 05, 2009
Bill Steigerwald :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Gamble in Gaza
by Bill Steigerwald
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If anyone can explain the worst flare up of Israeli-Palestinian violence in the Gaza Strip in four decades, it's Aaron David Miller. For 20 years, until he became a public policy fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington in 2006, Miller was a top Middle East advisor to six secretaries of state (Shultz to Powell). His specialty was formulating U.S. policy on the Middle East and the Arab-Israeli peace process. A regular guest on network and cable TV, a writer of commentary pieces for top U.S. papers, his four books include "The Much Too Promised Land: America's Elusive Search for Arab-Israeli Peace." I talked to Miller on Tuesday, Dec. 30, as the death toll from Israeli air strikes inside Hamas-controlled Gaza approached 400 and Hamas was continuing to use long-range rockets to hit population centers in Israel.

Q: For those who've never been there, can you briefly describe what the society and economy of the Gaza Strip are like?

A: It's one of the most densely populated areas in the world. It's primarily urban. A vast majority of Gazan residents live in Khan Yunis, Rafah and Gaza City. There are areas along the Mediterranean and areas to the north which are agricultural. They export citrus or at least in better times, hothouse flowers. It's a low-level industrial base. Per capita income is extremely low, unemployment is extremely high. There's no starvation, but over the last two years, particularly since Hamas rose to power, as a consequence of the international boycott -- which the Israelis have tried to orchestrate because it is trying to pressure Hamas into changing its policies - economic activity, trade and aid to Gaza have suffered. People get by using barter, family savings; a lot of non-lethal contraband - cigarettes, food, CDs - comes in through tunnels from Egypt. Other commodities are smuggled in by sea. There is a black market -- which the Israeli private sector participates in - in gasoline, oil, cigarettes, which actually characterized the situation long before Hamas got there - even when Arafat was in control. It's a dysfunctional environment made even more dysfunctional by -- at least when Fatah ran it -- a corrupt and divided leadership; and the Israeli occupation, even though Israel no longer occupies Gaza. They withdrew unilaterally in 2005. It's a society under tremendous stress.

Q: Gaza is neither a free, sovereign state nor an occupied one - so what is it?

A: It's not occupied any longer, although the occupation has not ended in the sense that the Israelis continue to control the borders, air space and access more or less by sea; the Egyptians control the southern access. But again, it's a porous border. It's not part of a state. It doesn't have international sanction as a state. It's part of the Palestinian Authority, even though Hamas - which is opposed to that authority at least in the person of Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority -- rules and rules with a fairly centralized grip. It's not a theocracy or religious state, despite the fact that Hamas represents the Islamic manifestation of Palestinian nationalism. You can buy almost anything in Gaza, but clearly after Hamas' policies of governance, there is clearly more of a conservative bent.

Q: Is Hamas the chief cause of the current escalation in violence?

A: You know, it's an interesting question. I would argue that the ceasefire no longer continued to serve the interests of either side. The Israelis grew increasingly impatient by Hamas' disregard for what they believed to be the informal rules and accommodation, particularly in terms of willful shelling of Israel's southern communities, particularly since the ceasefire came to an end on Dec. 19th. The Israelis have been engaged in a frustrating negotiation trying to get their kidnapped corporal, Gilad Shalit, back, who was kidnapped by Hamas in July of 2006.

Hamas was growing increasingly frustrated by the boycott and the economic siege of Gaza, and probably concluded that since it is an organization whose reason for being is armed struggle -- it's very nature is to resist and oppose - that it was worth taking a chance on continuing to push and test the Israelis, to find out what their limits were. The Israelis, who are still living under the shadow of their disastrous performance in the 2006 Israeli-Lebanon war, were determined to make a point that Israel still is a military power and it needs to be respected both by its friends and enemies.

I think that's how you might explain the intensity and ferocity of the Israeli assault. It's an effort to destroy Hamas' military infrastructure, to kill as many of its operatives as possible, to degrade its capacity to rocket northern Israel and to generally undermine its authority and to make clear to the Palestinian public - the 1.5 million Palestinians who live in Gaza - that in essence Hamas is the cause of the problems and their misfortunes. I doubt if the Israelis will succeed in that goal because, take it to the bank, it's a law of political gravity in this conflict: Palestinians will always be angrier at the Israelis than they will be at their own leaders.

Q: Can Israel break the will of Hamas and prevent the rocket attacks without invading or re-occupying Gaza?

A: Invasion won't break Hamas' will over time. Re-occupation would be a nightmare for Israel - hundreds of soldiers would be killed, as well as international opprobrium for their reaction. The Israelis are too smart to re-occupy. I think if they launch a ground incursion, it will be designed to follow up on what their air strikes couldn't achieve and will be in direct response to Hamas' residual capacity to continue to launch rockets. As far as the Israelis are concerned, I would guess that they would judge the operation has succeeded so far. But it reminds me of the joke about the guy who jumps out of the 18-story building and someone leans out the window as he passes the 12th floor and asks "How are you doing?' And the guy says, "So far so good." It's a lot easier to get into a war - as we know - than it is to get out of one.

Q: Some say the civilians in Gaza are being unfairly punished by Israel. Do you think that is true?

A: I do. I think it makes no sense to try to punish Hamas by making life unbearable or miserable for the million and a half Palestinians who live there. It's without logic, this strategy, because it's not going to topple Hamas. It may well be that an Israeli military incursion won't do that. It's simply going to breed and generate the kind of resentment, anger and hatred for the Israelis and by implication for the United States. It doesn't make any sense. If I were king for a day, I'd be flooding Gaza with aid.

Q: Does Israel know what it is doing?

A: I think in the short-term, the answer is "yes." And I think it has learned a great deal from its mistakes in Lebanon. But there is always, as the CIA would describe it, "blowback" - the law of unintended consequences, if you will. There is no way to predict what the impact of a ground incursion will be - one misplaced artillery shell; scores of civilian casualties; disproportionate Israeli losses; a lucky Hamas hit on an Israeli convey. This could still go extremely badly for the Israelis, which is one reason I suspect they don't want to go in on the ground - but I suspect they will.

Q: As opposed to going in on the ground, what should the Israelis do?

A: The problem with violence, insurgency and war in the Middle East, unless there is a political outcome, you wonder what the purpose of it is. The October '73 War, the first Persian Gulf war, the first Palestinian Intifada, all led to political agreements because there was a political pathway fashioned by both sides, or by an outside mediator, which enabled the violence to be put to good use. The violence broke "the frozen table," so to speak, and in shattering the frozen table new opportunities were available. I don't see this happening. It's very difficult for me to see a political pathway out of this, which is why it's going to be extremely difficult for Barack Obama, who will inherit this crisis in a little more than three weeks, to manage or diffuse it.

Q: What is the U.S. position on Gaza now and is it the correct position?

A: The U.S. position is that the Israelis have a legitimate reason to strike. There is no indication whatsoever or effort to constrain, restrain or stop the Israelis. There is a subtext from the current administration - and I suspect if Barack Obama were president today and the Israelis had done this, that his reaction would be no different from the one we see right now - which is essentially "Get Hamas, just try to kill as few civilians as you can."

Q: You don't see Obama's and team doing anything significantly different?

A: In response to this particular operation? I don't think the Obama response would be much different at all.

Q: In the long run is there really any way to permanently fix the situation in Gaza?

A: Well, Gaza is part of a much broader political solution. The question you ask is part of a much broader question: Yes, you can fix the situation in Gaza, if you create a Palestinian state which is contiguous and viable; one that agrees to live in peace and security with Israel. Yes there is a way, but it's going to be extremely difficult and right now there is no conflict-ending solution that's available - it's about management.

Q: When someone comes up to you and says we've been trying to create peace in the Middle East for 60 years. It seems to be the same old problems over and over again. If someone asks you "Why is the United States wasting its time, money, human beings on trying to solve these problems?" what do you say to them?

A: I say this is one of the few foreign policy issues where three very important things come together: No. 1, we have a national interest. Our enemies capitalize on an unresolved Arab-Israeli conflict; our friends are weakened by it. No. 2, we have a moral interest; it's the right thing to do. Aside from the Islamic-Judeo-Christian heritage, which now affects millions of Americans in this country, this Holy Land - or, arguably, not-so Holy Land - is of profound importance. And finally, the most important piece: The U.S. has a demonstrated track record - when we are tough, smart and fair - in making a bad situation better; we have had successes. So these three things come together in a way that is unique and unparalleled. And it's for that reason that I think it's important for the United States to engage - but to engage as one Kennedy once described "as an idealist without illusion." We need to see the world the way it is, first of all, not the way we want it to be.

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About The Author
Bill Steigerwald, born and raised in Pittsburgh, is a former L.A. Times copy editor and free-lancer who also worked as a docudrama researcher for CBS-TV in Hollywood before becoming a reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and a columnist Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Bill Steigerwald recently retired from daily newspaper journalism..
 
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Proof-positive...
... that situations such as the mid-east should be left to generals, not diplomats.

Bill

Thanks, at last, for a balanced, and rational discussion !

The Israelis should've nuked them
We have never lived down Hiroshima or Nagasaki in world opinion (for what it's worth), but it ended WW II. Forever.

Islamists do not take "no" or "stop" for an answer. They whine that Islam is being disrespected, that Israelis are occupation forces, that they're going to paradise on a suicide bomb, but they don't give up.

To make themselves known and be taken very seriously by Hamas idiots, the Israelis need to do something really ferocious.

As to the Palestinians in Gaza, they're only stuck there because the UN has nursed Palestinian grievance for 60 years.

They're only there because Arab *brothers* will never let them be citizens of other nations, even if they've lived in Egypt or Saudi Arabia for three generations.

They're only there because leaders like Arafat syphoned billions of dollars into Switzerland and left his *people* indigent and neglected.

They're only there because they ELECTED Hamas.

Just one question
Every time Israel is provoked into taking action against suicide bombers, indiscrimenate rocket attacks, the kidnapping of its people, the "international community" condemns Israel for its actions.

Moreover, all those who condemn Israel and have no understanding of what it is like to live under the constant threat of being blown to bits seem to know what Israel must do to end the violence.

The question: When are these brainiacs going to tell the Palestinians what "they" must do to end their perpetual crusade to destroy their Israeli neighbors? Or am I being too deep with that one?


How to solve the problem - rebuttal
Eliminate Daron, and give his property to his neighbor.

................
-----Eliminate Israel Give the Palestinians their land back.....by a historically illiterate idiot savant------

Idiotchild, you probably couldn't find Israel on a map. Undoubtedly this leftist puke that goose-steps around his moms basement in nazi garb knows nothing of the conflict, as evidence by his comment, but is damn sure that the palestinians have been somehow wronged by the Israelis. How is he so sure of this? He hates Jews and will swallow any shred of the Jew bashing rhetorical orgies from the left without question or concern for truth. Who needs facts when you're a demented leftist miscreant.

good column
A surprisingly good discussion on this site. Miller does a good job in focusing on the importance of distinguishing between those attacks that serve some positive long term purpose, and those that don't. This current attack appears to be one that doesn't which is why it seems like another disaster like Lebanon in 2006. If it turns out that it does serve some long term purpose, it would be justified, but it is hard to see how it does.

.................
----It's not occupied any longer, although the occupation has not ended in the sense that the Israelis continue to control the borders, air space and access more or less by sea;------

Israeli maintaining it's border with Gaza is now akin to occupation. This “M.E expert” would feeeeel much better if the Israelis just let the terrorists enter their nation unencumbered.


----It's a dysfunctional environment made even more dysfunctional by -- at least when Fatah ran it -- a corrupt and divided leadership; and the Israeli occupation, even though Israel no longer occupies Gaza.----

He can't stop using the cop out of occupation. Lets be clear. This “occupation” the “M.E expert” keeps referring to is not much different from an international peacekeeping force. The palestinians were free to develop their infrastructure, build schools, hospitals, homes, etc. The palestinians receive more foreign aid than any other group on earth. But they were not interested in a civil infrastructure, they instead invested in terrorism, as they always have.


----Hamas was growing increasingly frustrated by the boycott and the economic siege of Gaza,-----

The palestinians are free to trade with the surrounding 22 arab/muslim nations. Miller seems more concerned with painting Israel in a negative light; he must have worked at the State Dept.

................
----I think it makes no sense to try to punish Hamas by making life unbearable or miserable for the million and a half Palestinians who live there. It's without logic,-----

His alternative: do nothing and let hamas continue to bomb you. Jewish blood is cheap as far as he's concerned.

Israel, it is your duty to destroy your enemies. Your people expect it, your nation requires it, God demands it.

“And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them; For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.”......-Deuteronomy 20:3,4

Question: How can Israel make their . .
. neighbors love them?

Answer: Not going to happen. The idea that the muslims are going to behave themselves is preposterous and naïve. Flooding Gaza with aid is not going to tone down their hatred for Jews one bit. The only path for the Jews is beat their antagonizers down to the point where the muslims decide to accept peace with Israel. Israel must make the rags cry for peace.

Whining about civilian casualties is pointless. If anything, Israel either needs to start aggressively adding to the toll, or at least, be willfully indifferent. They must punish the Gazans so that to avert the righteous wrath of the Israelies, they actively help Israel find and destroy Hamas.

Consider Israeli domestic politics
--
The present counterattack upon Hamas (which was designed from its outset as a "decapitation" strike, deliberately intended to kill as many key figures in the organization's hierarchy as possible) has been engendered rather more by the need for the Knesset to address popular pressure in the Israeli electorate than anything else.

The Israeli govenment has issued pagers to citizens in the northern and southern areas of the country at greatest risk of Hamas and Hezbollah missile strikes, with the ability to selectively alert people in probable strike areas when the IDF sensor net picks up incoming missiles and determines where the weapons are going to land.

(( This is an expedient measure; the IDF wonks are developing a system based on cell phone technology, which will permit them to more discriminately locate *every* phone-bearing person within a probable impact zone. Cell phones have to handshake with specific fixed relay towers in order to receive incoming calls of any kind, and are therefore constantly "aware" of where they are. ))

The Israeli population has therefore a high level of awareness regarding the Hamas/Hezbollah missile threat, having to wear those damned pagers all the time.

This "Destroy-and-Search" campaign - which is designed to stonk, sweep, sterilize, and scoot - ought to work, both to take down a lot of Hamas capability (forcing them to rebuild their blasted-to-death leadership as well as to re-stock their magazines) and to placate the fuming Sabras, who are ready to elect any government willing to announce its intention to run a phalanx of Rome plows down the coast from Gaza to the Egyptian border.




=====
Dr. PETER VENKMAN: "If I'm wrong, nothing happens! We go to jail - peacefully, quietly. We'll enjoy it! But if I'm *right*, and we *can* stop this thing... Lenny, you will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters."

-- Screenplay, *Ghostbusters* (1984)

A Real Enigma, Eh What??
When U wonder how many of today's *Palestinians*
are REALLY just that and
How many present Israelis are truly that, as opposed to being of Jewish faith only??
I guess what I'm really asking is: How many of these two combatant groups are Historically indignant?? Or does it even matter anymore??

Correction to Enigma
Correction to word after Historically
shud be indigenous??
Sorry about that

Pleasantly surprised
Overall, a fairly rational interview about a most difficult topic.

I might disagree slightly with Miller in that I don't know for sure if Obama would have been as accommodating to the Israelis as Bush has been.

Perhaps he would.

But, I don't think there is any doubt but that Israel decided to launch this operation while Bush was still president.

Its timing was no accident.

At the least, Israel was not certain Obama administration would have been as supportive.

At worst, it may have feared Obama would have agreed with the Europeans and most of the world in demanding an immediate ceasefire.

I was pleasantly surprised Miller did not shamelessly shill the the Israeli line.

His awareness that the Palestinians are under siege is commendable, as his his acknowledgement that Hamas has been attacking Israel with rockets.

The U.S., indeed the world, need more diplomats possessing judgment such as his.

WARGAMES?
War is not a sporting event between two teams, yet there are simalarities in both.
Two sides.
Two goals, victory for one side, defeat of the other.
But in the War between Israel and Hamas, the International spectators do not root for a victory or defeat of either, they demand a 'tie' with 'never ending' overtime. These demands ensure that the Victory of Peace will never be won and the War will never end.
There is another similarity between War and a sporting contest, and it is 'disparity' or the 'disproportionate' strength, skill, ability and force of one side over the other which is the ONLY way one side finalizes the game (war) by 'winning' and is 'victorious'.
ONLY Israel embraces Peace as its goal, which includes the Palestinian people their right to exist. Hamas ideology of victory, is not ONLY Israels defeat but Israels complete annihilation.
Do the International spectators not remember 'Hitler'? Or do they have reasons to promote a 'never ending' War--Game?
Anyone wanna make a BET?
Perhaps if the spectators either joined in 'rooting' for the victory of 'Peace' or just went home and minded their own business, this War would have the opportunity to eventually come to an end by the victory of 'Good' vs 'Evil'.

Poor lil' terrorists!
Is this drivel what passes or conservatism? (or for that matter, facts???) The "paleostinians" have had a "homeland" for the last 87 years! (1921 Balfour Accords gave Trans-Jordan (modern day Jordan) to the ME arabs living in what would become Israel, in 1948.) Jordan is STILL over 90% "paleostinian", by population, but the minority Hashemites won't even allow them citizenship! It serves their anti-semitic goals to keep them homeless and destitute. (Like ALL other arab lands with a sizable "paleostinian" presence!)
And HOW on earth can one claim that Gaza is still "occupied", by the Jews, when it's already "judenrein"???
Why does TH allow such blatantly, factually bereft, left-tard commentary on this site???

OBAMA'S VACATION AND GAZA WAR
Six days into Obama's Christmas vacation in Hawaii, Honolulu suffered a massive power outage that left the Obamas without electricity for 11 hours. The outage began at approximately 7 PM, December 26th four and a half hours before the start of Operation Cast Lead, Israel's offensive against Hamas in Gaza. When Obama got word of the operation his seaside compound was totally in the dark without power.

Once he becomes President Obama would do well to dash his plan to make reviving of the Palestinian-Israeli peace process the most important of his foreign policy goals. The outage in Hawaii was a warning that he is powerless to achieve anything, that the Palestinian people are still hopeful of victory and are not ready for peace, and that like Bill Clinton he will get badly burned if he attemps the impossible.



State Dept apparatchik
"His specialty was formulating U.S. policy on the Middle East and the Arab-Israeli peace process."
"Yes, you can fix the situation in Gaza, if you create a Palestinian state which is contiguous and viable; one that agrees to live in peace and security with Israel."

This guy has been part of the problem. Just like any government employee/operative, results has no bearing on success. I think the "balance" his perspective brings to the subject tells us nothing we don't already know, and offers no new ideas for resolution.

Several generals
I heard interviewed have described Israels military action as "brillant". They have learned much from the Lebanon war. Given this description, what can be expected this time?

The interviewee didn't address the fact the Hamas charter vows to eliminate Israel and all Jews. Hamas is not looking for compromise but rather utter destruction of the Israeli state and they couch this determination in religious terms. What now?

Lots of nice homes and greenhouses were left behind when Israel left Gaza. They are now in ruins. What does that tell us about the real goals of Hamas? Does it mean to create jobs and prosperity as primary goals?


Roy
What does it mean for Israelis to be historically indigenous in your context? And would it be a good thing or a bad thing if such things no longer mattered?

I suspect it would be a good thing since it would make the issue less intractable. But I am not sure what you mean to be getting at.

Soveignty
What is it? yes, I see the conflict between Israel and Gaza, but that is their issue.

The question is should USA be participating and if so, how? There is always the blow back factor to consider.

As a father, I am very patient to interfere in a fight between siblings. The reason is, then I have to answer to the outcome or lack thereof. It relieves both children from their responsibility as it is now mine. Advice is free and deliberate with options.

I think the USA should take the same stance. Stand back. If the USA wants to give a billion to Israel to spend as they see fit. Then Palestine gets the same. Unless you want to take sides and become responsible for the outcome.

We all know politicians will be glad to twist the outcome and say, the end was not there choosing. What they mean to say, they screwed up in discipline and lost and do not want to be responsible.


Good Deal
A peace deal is on the horizon in which Gazians will receive a 50 percent increase in food and medical supplies which include a favorite brand of hashsheesh. In return Hamas will slow down the firing of missiles into Israel to only one or two daily. The world bank will pick up the tab.

No peace
For those who want peace in the middle east, it is fairly simple- the arabs stop bombing Israel and we shall HAVE peace, tomorrow. "Blaming Israel" for this current BS is knee-jerk and false.
As for all the whining about "dead civilians" in Gaza? How many died because the terrorist cowards use them as human shields? How many were shot by the terrorists, themselves, because they make for good copy on the western news shows? For any who have given this a modicum of thought, the arabs have NO defense for their actions. They lie and blame everyone else for their problems and the western left fawns.
As for poor Corporal Shalit- he is probably dead and the Israelis will be lucky if the terrorists haven't cannibalized him by now. We are NOT dealing with sane human beings here.

Typical liberal thinking
So, Aaron David Miller was a "top Middle East advisor to six secretaries of state (Schultz to Powell)". Now I see why this conflict never goes anywhere.

Did he actually say, "If I were king for a day, I'd be flooding Gaza with aid."?

Let me get this straight. This alleged Middle East expert thinks that more of our tax dollars should be spent providing goodies for Islamic terrorists?

He thinks we can buy their friendship?

Haven't the US and the EU funneled billions of aid to the PA over the years? What has it bought us? What good has it done in the pursuit of peace?

It has taught the Palestinians to play the victim card while sending suicide bombers and rockets to kill Israelis.



Russ has a point
Far better to squander trillions of our tax dollars on Iraq, so that its citizens can make a hero of the shoe-tosser.

By the way, didn't Iraq's democratically elected parliament vote a resolution of support for Hezbollah in the 2006 Israel/Lebanon fracas?


Russ

Whose playing the victim card here? Since 2000, over 5000 Palestinians have been killed, and about 20 Israelis. The Palestinians have lost most of their territory too, Have you seen what they've done to the West Bank? It's as though Sherman had walled off Kansas City and slowly starved the people there and cut off any means of making a living.

Miller makes clear
why things have never changed in Israel/Palestine. He says that to make things work you need a political settlement.

What a bunch of foggy bottom rubbish. Since WWII every war has resulted in political settlements rather than obtaining actual results. Consequently, every one of these wars (except for Vietnam) are still unresolved and ready to become hot wars again at any time.

I hope Israel ignores everything but their own national interests and finishes these despicable terrorists off once and for all.

I was just in Israel in September and was awestruck by what they have done in turning a desert wasteland into a virtual paradise. This is in stark contrast to the Palestinians who enslave themselves in poverty because of their insane hatred for the Jews.

Gaza possesses some of the whitest sand beaches that can be found. If the PA wanted to turn this area into a resort they could generate incredible wealth from the tourism that would ensue. They don't want peace, they don't want prosperity....they are consumed with hate and probably will remain so until they are put out of their misery.


Taft
You are a complete idiot and don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.

I've been there. You're a fool.

Way To Complicated
To me this is a very simple issue. You have people on the Palestinain side who want to kill you. If you play defense, they will succeed in killing you from time to time. The question is, are you going to continue taking it on the chin, or are you going to do something to try to stop them from killing you.

But I thought some Israeli spokesman said it best. If someone was firing rockets into the United States, what would the United States do about it.

PV
You didn't by some really bad weed when you where there?

Gaza is blockaded, the citizens cannot leave with out permission and they sure as hell can't trade with other nations. Turn it into a "resort"?

And feed the guests steak diners too, I suppose.

Half of the kids there are so starved they have stunted growth.

None
But an equally interesting question is what would people in the United States do if Canada was imposing a military blockade that left the country short of food and medical supplies?

Hypotheticals like that don't work well because the US is not in a very similar position to the one that Israel and the Palestinians are in.

Robyn
Actually if the Palestinians stopped bombing Israel, they would still be under a military blockade with most of their territory occupied by the Israelis. That is not a condition of peace. If the Palestinians stopped firing into Israel, then Israelis would live under conditions of peace while Palestinians continue to live under conditions of war.

What you say is true if one only considers the Israeli perspective. But, then, that is how these subjects are usually discussed.

..............
Lon you babbling fool, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Let me guess, you're a bedwetting liberal quisling.

The Great Satan
Let me guess. You couldn't answer anything I said so you were reduced to childish name calling.

For Great Satan @ 12:29
Don't worry about Lon's understanding of what he posts--he'll only understand at all at least a year after someone successfully explains "football" (the North American version(s)) to me!

How many new radicals now?



"
Israeli tank shells killed at least 40 Palestinians on Tuesday at a U.N. school where civilians had taken shelter, medical officials said, in carnage likely to boost international calls for a halt to Israel's Gaza offensive. . . .
People cut down by shrapnel lay in pools of blood on the street. Witnesses said two Israeli tanks shells exploded outside the school, killing at least 40 civilians -- Palestinians who had taken refuge there and residents of nearby buildings. . . .
The deaths raised to 75 the number of Palestinian civilians killed on Tuesday alone, according to medical officials."

.

Lon @9:34 U ask "Israelis indigenous?"
The question, it seems to me, always comes back to *who was here first?* and I doubt that ANYONE really knows with certainty.
Dr. W.F. Dever's book 'Who Were The Early Israelites & Where Did They Come From' spends a volume on this question, but doesn't answer anything. Seems, from an Archaeological view, there is no answer..And, YES, I think it would make some difference in the issue, BUT that should have been a primary concern many years ago..I fear there will be no real solution.

Let's not forget
“When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, 2 and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them.” – Deuteronomy 7:1-2 (NKJV)

Let's not forget that this land was given to Israel by God Himself.

The U.S. "Peace"
Basically, every time we try to get peace in that part of the world, we simply try to buy it. "How much more money do you want? We'll pay it if you won't kill each other." And that type of agreement never works.

The real problem is that the Muslims there don't like the Jews since it was the real rant of Mohammad. They want to destory them. And it is VERY handy to have them nearby. Every time the locals start to demand that the Muslim governments actually do something to aid their lives, the governments fire a few missiles at Israel, get them mad, and then the locals are too concerned about Israel to worry about what their government is doing.

That isn't going to change. Since Israel now makes its own weapons and has the ability to keep the locals from wiping them out, I'd say our best bet is simply to ignore them.

Chad

And, not to forget why he kicked them out.

.

One Sided Compassion
The NYT will soon go broke because its readers are too cheap to buy it. They will not report that the genocide in Darfur has claimed 400,000 lives and displaced over 2,500,000 people. More than one hundred people continue to die each day; five thousand die every month. The NYT remains silent in spite of this tragedy. The NYT rises in protest when Israel tries to defend its self against rocket attacks. Tiny Israel and its Jewish population is expected to turn the other cheek and march to the grave. But Israel will survive despite the Satanic venom of over a billion neighbors and the NYT.

Taft
Taft, you don't deserve serious consideration. The death numbers you've cited are wildly distorted. You either made them up or got them from a pro-Palestinian source. You're wrong about the West Bank, too. Hamas is not in control there. No rockets are being fired from the West Bank into Israel. No suicide bombers are infiltrating into Israel from there. Compared to Gaza, the situation in the West Bank is relatively peaceful and prosperous.

Russ
Your right, it was much more...

"Since the beginning of the second intifada in September 2000 until the end of July 2007, at least 5,848 people have been killed either directly or as an indirect consequence of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 1/ This figure includes all persons regardless of their ethnic origin, nationality, gender, age, status as civilian or combatant and regardless of the circumstances or cause."

This was in August, so we can add another 500.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d9d90d845776b7af85256d0800 6f3ae9/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument


And, I never said Hamas was in the W.B. but that the Palestinians there too are having their land stolen.

Roy
Why is that the question? If we mean in modern times, clearly the Arabs, whether one wants to consider them distinctly Palestinian or not, get that claim. There have been some jews in the region, but until the return of the Ashkenazi the jews could not really claim Israel on the basis of being the indigenous party.

Of course if you go back to when my ancestors were in the region then maybe the claim could be made, but by that standard the US should revert to Indian rule.

But, while your standard makes the existence if Israel illegitimate, I don't think that is really the relevant standard. The fact that generations of Israelis have since been born in Israel is not irrelevant simply because so many of them are descended from people who moved there in the last century or so.

Taft
Thanks for citing your source, a UN website, "Israeli-Palestinian Fatalities Since 2000 - Key Trends".

Here is what you said originally: "Since 2000, over 5000 Palestinians have been killed, and about 20 Israelis."

I said your numbers were "wildly distorted".

Lets pull the numbers from your source: "Of those killed in the conflict, 4,228 have been Palestinians, 1,024 Israelis, and 63 foreign citizens."

Can you now see that you "wildly" understated the Israeli deaths? You said 20. The UN says 1,024. You do the math.

By the way, you should study the full UN report, paying special attention to section 5) Deaths from Internal Palestinian Violence. Those numbers are not insignificant and are included in the 4,228 Palestinian deaths cited in the report.


Russ

Nice job, and I'll take more time to look at the source before posting. So, with those numbers, is it safe to say that for every four killed Palestinians, there is one Israeli, and that maybe the Palestinians have a legitimate beef?

Newsflash!
This is a newsflash to Bill Steigerwald. It is apparent that Aaron David Miller learned NOTHING in his 20 years as a Middle East advisor.His response that...., if he were king for a day he would flood Gaza with aid is proof.What a ludicrous answer.What does Mr. Miller think that the U.S. and other western nations have been doing for the last 35 years?

Thanks to wunderkinds like Mr. Miller, Arafat's widow is living in a Paris penthouse with millions.Yassar Arafat was the Jesse Jacckson/Al Sharpton of Palestine.He created the Palestinian victimhood for personal gain.

Israel is a tiny, compassionate DEMOCRACY,surrounded by some of the most evil dictatorships that the world will ever know.The Palestinian "PROBLEM" is the fault of these countries,NOT Israel!

I would suggest to Mr. Steigerwald that he educate himself on the Middle East and not rely on the knowledge of a horse's patoot like Aaron David Miller.

It is too sad to me that Mr. Steigerwald has no apparent knowledge of the Israeli sruggle to establish themselves as a democracy in 1951.He should research that struggle!Israel is a beacon of light surrounded by the darkness of militant Islam.This country, established as a result of the holocaust,has exercised more patience and compassion than I think the U.S., or any other democracy on this earth would show to their enemies!

If Bill Steigerwald thinks that Aaron David Miller has any relevancy on what is happening right now,even as I post this, then he is dumber than a sack of hammers!!!!!

Go Israel! It's about time!

Lon @3:32
I can't disagree with you on anything U say; I was putting forth the theory that no matter which position you/I favored, something of an argument could be made to support it. In fact, I would agree that using ur logic the present occupants (Jews) probably could more properly be called *Legals* than the Palestinians. I'm not sure the American Indian comparison is entirely valid, but if I was a Apache, I most likely would! I truly

LC

Israel has some positive attributes, but they are indeed, unequivocally illegally stealing land from the Palestinians. Google your self a map of the West Bank. And Mr. Miller may have made mistakes, can you point them out and give a source.

Videos, like this are being seen around the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQyIKyd2gqA

Lon @3:32 Contd
Havin a heckuva time on tis site.. As I was saying, I truly think the US and Her Citizens, shud probably stay out of Israel's way and let the chips fall where they may!! I don't care whether BumF444k Eqypt agrees with the US or not either.. Have a GOOD DAY!!

Taft
Taft...,get over yourself! I am not going to waste any energy on someone who is a BIGGER horse's patoot than Aaron David Miller. You post in ignorance.

I refuse to do your work for you. You research the inception of Israel. You look at an atlas to see how tiny Israel is.You research the compassion of the Israelis to their enemies.

Will you? I doubt it.

Taft
Both sides have "legitimate beefs" going all the way back to the Balfour Declaration in 1918. That's the problem. The death toll would be very different if Israel didn't strictly control the Gaza border crossings. Hamas' charter calls for the annihilation of Israel. Israel has no choice but to attack Hamas and put an end to the shelling of israel from the Gaza strip.

Russ
Uh....,no Russ, both sides do NOT have legitimate beefs. Why would you even think that?

You cite the Balfour Declaration of freaking 1918. That has absolutely NO relevance to what is happening in 2009!

Instead of looking up irrelevant things like the Balfour Declaration, look at an atlas. Do you see how absolutely tiny Israel is? Do you see that they are surrounded by much larger countries ruled by evil dictatorships? It's great that you are SO smart that you know of the Balfour Declaration. Your point is moot in 2009!

Get your learn on. Come into the present!

LC
Err, yes, LC, I know how tiny Israel is. I also know the full history and all the steps along the way. Knowing the full history, I'm solidly on the side of Israel. That's not to say that Israel is totally clean. Do you know anything at all about the Irgun? The Stern Gang? On balance, though, the Arab/Palestinian side are the worst offenders. Israel has a right to defend its territory and people and certainly the right exist in peace. You should spend a little time learning the full history yourself.

Israel
Was there first. Study up on some archeology. This is Israel's land. They are occupying only a tiny fraction of the land that was given to them by God. That's tough for unbeliever's to grab onto, but it remains the truth, nevertheless.

The Palestinians are indeed suffering. They are being used as pawns against Israel by her enemies. It is so sad to see the children hurt and suffering, when it does not need to be. Israel wants peace. They don't want the Gaza strip. They just want the rockets to stop landing in their communities.

Hamas has brought this terrible war to their own communities, their own families and children. They care not even for their very own, as long as they can bring embarrassment and world-wide condemnation to Israel. But, given the chance to elect a democratic government, the Palestinians voted in Hamas. Really, it is in insane. The hatred is insane. And the children suffer for it.

God loves Israel, but He loves the Arabs and Palestinians also.

There will not be peace there until the Prince of Peace returns.

This Miller guy has no guts.
The Israelis are showing us what needs to be done to terrorist. Time to help them and join them and rid the world of these jihadist once and for all. Do we really want to wait until they up the ante to nuclear. Time to put them in isolation. Eliminate any means of force they may have. Because if we continue to play these small games; Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, 9-11 until we get hit by a nuke and then it will be all over. 1.2 billion people from Morocco to West Timor gone in 38 minutes.

To Taft
Look at the original UN partition plan. Had the Palestinian Arabs accepted it (and it was based on the areas in which Jews were in the majority, having PURCHASED the land from Syrian and Turkish landlords) then the Palestinian Arabs would have everything they are currently murdering for (oops, 'fighting for'), and more!
But in 1948, long before any Israelis 'stole' land, or 'forced out' Arabs, those Arab *civilians* took up their rifles and axes and walked down the road to murder the Jews with whom they had been neighobrs, in some cases for decades. Why?

Because the Jews in Israel were no longer going to be 'good Jews'. To the Arabs, the 'good Jew' was the one who lived according to Arab 'tolerance'. That is, the Jew who accepted discrimination, who accepted economic exploitation, who accepted jeering and humiliation, who accepted constant cultural and religious pressure, who accepted being confined to the 'Jewish Quarter' (equivalent to the ghetto in Europe), who accepted constant physical abuse, who accepted having NO voice in government and no political authority, and who accepted these things meekly and without argument or struggle.
Such was the famed 'tolerance' of Arab Muslim culture toward the Jews.

The reason the Palestinian Arabs attacked the Jews in 1948 was not because of the silly excuses you present (those supposed wrongs hadn't even been committed yet) but rather because the idea of a Jewish community in the Middle East possessing any political autonomy, which didn't bow the knee and the head to Islam, which didn't submit itself to Islamic rule and abuse, was an abomination to them. And it still is. If you want to look for the origins of the Arab-Israeli conflict, look to Muhammed's massacre and rape of the Banu al-Nadir and the Banu-Kuraiza. Because THAT is the template that Muslim Arabs have been following ever since.

And you know what? I rather suspect you already know this.

To Victoria
'Hamas' and other such labels, are largely a successful attempt by the militants to hide who they really are.

You see, the membership of Hamas and the other groups doesn't come from the fringe of Palestinian Arab society, nor do such groups cling together and separate themselves from the larger society.
Hamas and the others are militia-style groups which form integral parts of the community from which they spring. Their memberships constantly fluctuates because everyday Arabs will participate in attacks, then go home to momma and jobs for a few months, until the next time they feel frisky. Hamas doesn't possess a distinct and exclusive membership, except in the upper ranks and among the 'specialists' such as the missile-builders.

The myth that Hamas is some sort of distinct entity was deliberately constructed to hide the intimate complicity of the Palestinian Arab civilian population in the violence. And it works, as long as the media doesn't pay too much attention to the public school curriculum of Palestinian Arab children, or to the festivities in which children are dressed up as suicide bombers, or the public celebrations whenever Jews or Americans are killed, etc.


Tallil2long
two excellent posts. Too bad they came so late in the debate. Most of the readers have moved on. Taft and LC in particular should read your words, albeit for different reasons. Taft is the typical pro-Palestinian liberal who gets his opinions from the mainstream media. LC doesn't have a grasp of the history and nuances of the conflict.

I particularly liked this paragraph of yours.

"The reason the Palestinian Arabs attacked the Jews in 1948 was not because of the silly excuses you present (those supposed wrongs hadn't even been committed yet) but rather because the idea of a Jewish community in the Middle East possessing any political autonomy, which didn't bow the knee and the head to Islam, which didn't submit itself to Islamic rule and abuse, was an abomination to them. And it still is. If you want to look for the origins of the Arab-Israeli conflict, look to Muhammed's massacre and rape of the Banu al-Nadir and the Banu-Kuraiza. Because THAT is the template that Muslim Arabs have been following ever since."

This is the very crux of it. Muslims will never accept a non-Muslim state in their midst. It goes against their holy book and everything they believe about their faith. Islam is a xenophobic and militant religion. It has ever been thus. I'm afraid this conflict is going to end in a nuclear conflagration.

Taft
"And, not to forget why he kicked them out."

Yes, that was His punishment for them as He had promised them. But they were never dis-inherited from the land. The land is theirs ETERNALLY. The fact that an Israeli nation even exists today is proof enough of that.

“Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession” – Genesis 17:8 (NKJV)

Thank you, Victoria ...
for your beautiful post. Yes, you are correct. Only the Prince of Peace can bring peace to that tortured land. Lord haste that day!

To Russ
Thank you.
The thing that supporters of Palestinian Arab violence can never acknowledge is that the Pal Arabs hatred of independent Jews dates back from before 1967. It was evident during the several massacres during Britain's Mandate. It was evident in 1948. The attitude has LONG been evident in Muslim Arab nations. We are supposed to stand in awe of Arab 'tolerance' of Judaism, but it was the tolerance that the conqueror has for his meek, oppressed, abused, submissive victims.

To Chad
I don't see that it is possible to adequately explain the Jews' continuance as a distinct people (and their re-settlement in their homeland, many centuries after exile) AND the intense dislike which people who really have never suffered any wrong at Jewish hands often feel for them... unless one admits that there is Something Very Special about the Jewish people.


Taft
I have been to Israel--I have seen the wall. This wall has kept WB snipers from firing at Israeli's as they drive the hwys to get to and from work. I've seen the shrapnel that the shop owners keep on Ben Yehuda street as a reminder of the suicide bombings. BTW--Suicide bombings have decreased since this wall has been built.
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