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Tuesday, October 21, 2008
Bill Steigerwald :: Townhall.com Columnist
Joe the Plumber Doesn't Need a License
by Bill Steigerwald
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher, the Republican Party's newest working-class hero from Ohio, has been ridiculed and had his private life probed since he had the nerve to confront Barack Obama about taxation last week.

For liberals, one of Joe's biggest crimes against humanity - besides apparently owing about $2,000 in back taxes - is the charge that he works as a plumber but doesn't have a plumber's license.

In Ohio Joe's not required by law to get a license before he can practice plumbing. But he need to get a license if he decides he'd rather make his living as an accountant, architect, barber, chiropractor, cosmetologist, dental hygienist, dentist, paramedic, funeral director, hearing aid fitter, insurance agent, land surveyor, lawyer, nursing home administrator, nurse, occupational therapist, optometrist, pesticide applicator, pharmacist, physical therapist, physician assistant, physician, podiatrist, psychologist, public school teacher, real estate agent, real estate appraiser, school counselor, stock broker, social worker, truck driver, veterinarian or vet's assistant.

Before Joe Wurzelbacher or anyone else wants to become Joe the Barber or Joe the Podiatrist he must first get the permission of his state government.

In fact, every occupation above is licensed in all 50 states. That means before you go to work in those fields you have to pay whatever fees, pass whatever tests and meet whatever training, education or apprenticeship requirements your home state's professional and occupational licensing boards and commissions demand -- no matter how arbitrary, absurd or onerous they are.

Unfortunately, these 33 categories don't begin to show how widespread job regulation is. According to a 2007 study by the Reason Foundation, more than 1,000 occupations are regulated to some degree by states and about 20 percent of the country's work force must obtain a license to work (up from 4.5 percent in the 1950s).

The average state licenses 92 job categories, according to study author Adam Summers. California leads with 177 -- including talent agents and librarians. Missouri has the least -- 41 -- while Pennsylvania is remarkably low with 62. Among the most idiotic examples are Maryland (fortune tellers), Louisiana (florists) and Arizona (rainmakers).

Propagandists for these regulated occupations and their captive regulators in state government both insist, as Pennsylvania does, that job licenses are necessary to protect "the health, safety and welfare of the public from fraudulent and unethical practitioners."

Studies don't prove that, Summers says. And most economists -- including Milton Friedman, who shockingly but persuasively argued that "licensure should be eliminated as a requirement for the practice of medicine" -- see the scam behind the Nanny State smoke.

They know that occupational licensing is almost always a result of political lobbying by the very profession being licensed. And it is a sneaky way to use government power to protect the economic interests of incumbent doctors, lawyers and pesticide applicators.

By making it harder and more expensive for new doctors, lawyers and pesticide applicators to enter the market, competition and the number of practitioners in each field are artificially - and unfairly -- held down and salaries, prices and profits are propped up.

Consumers get robbed every day by this venerable public-private racket. So do those who'd like to become dietitians or auctioneers but can't afford the time or money for training or certification requirements. So does society, which gets less economic growth and innovation.

It's maddening. Because of occupational licensing, today Abe Lincoln couldn't practice law, Florence Nightingale couldn't be a nurse and Albert Einstein couldn't teach physics in a public school in America.

But don't despair. Our freedom to work isn't totally lost. Except for in Iowa, where you do need a license, any American can still grow up and become a manure applicator without getting the government's permission.

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About The Author
Bill Steigerwald, born and raised in Pittsburgh, is a former L.A. Times copy editor and free-lancer who also worked as a docudrama researcher for CBS-TV in Hollywood before becoming a reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and a columnist Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Bill Steigerwald recently retired from daily newspaper journalism..
 
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I disagree
Licensure is not a barrier to practicing. I am an RN with an active license in two states. The license fees are not onerous and the regulation provided by the Boards of Nursing (BON) is needed. Licensure does not prevent MDs from practicing, malpractice premiums do. MDs are leaving the field entirely rather than pay the confiscatory premiums required to practice. If the States did not regulate say, nursing or physicians the federal government would and the professions would be in a total shambles.

Your examples of Lincoln and Nightengale are specious. Nightengale would have been grandfathered in, a practice that nursing has long used as requirements for licensure have increased. I would have to think that a state bar would do the same for Lincoln were he to somehow have survived the 160ish years since his death.

I am suspicious of government regulation but to suggest there should be no regulation of professional fieds is insane.

driver's licenses
As I understand it, you think that truck drivers shouldn't need a license. Why should I need a license to operate my car? I assume you are also against federal licences for pilots.

Good Article
Here is the more important question: Do you need a license to be a Marxist? We are worried about licensing a plumber, but no one questions Chairman Obama's experience or training for PRESIDENT OF THE US? This is amazing.

What people fail to miss
is the fact that the license does what? I was rear ended by someone with a drivers license who has NO BUSINESS driving. However, she met the minimum requirement - which was being alive and breathing at the time of her visit to the Dept. of Motor Vehicles.
Ever gotten a bad haircut from a licensed barber? Certainly we ALL know bad teachers. I also know lots of people who would make GREAT teachers, but they are no willing to jump through the hoops and hurdles needed to get the license.
The "other" person, whomever they might be, having a "license" doesn't protect you one bit. It doesn't ensure they have competence, more than anything it gives you a false sense of security. I know people who don't research their doctors "hey, they have a license - if they weren't good they wouldn't have gotten that". Parents send their children to schools to sit in the classroom under teachers they know zero about with the hope and trust that "the license" means that all is well.
We have to stop being lazy and thinking that a piece of paper and a test score means someone is great. We also need to stop feeling like the government should be allowed to tell us whom we can get our hair cut by, our real estate from, and whom can conduct a funeral.
Why so many people feel they need the government to be their daddy or their nanny I will never know. You are an adult, research for yourself is a lawyer is competent.
Also, look at teaching. It is now over run with liberals because they have a market on the license. If you hold views that are not popular you will never get that piece of paper allowing you to teach in the classroom, no matter how great you are in the subject matter.

Still getting fraud.
We may have too many manure spreaders already, but I digress. Building a house has shown me more than one licensed contractor who was unethical and fraudulent. I do not see how the licensing process helped me, it did not keep them honest or guarantee they were good.

Drivers' Licenses
To answer your question, sjpatejak, no, people shouldn't need a license to drive a car or fly an airplane. Let the market decide. For example, if I'm in an airplane and it crashes, well, that's the last time I'm going to fly with that pilot! And if enough people feel that way, then no one will agree to fly with that pilot again!

It's all so simple if you'd just pay attention!

Screwtape
I think you miss the point. The author is talking about economic regulation vs. safety regulation. Were I, a licensed engineer, to open a practice as an MD charging lower rates than a licensed MD then the State would shortly visit me to discuss this with me and inform of the legal penalties I face.
Licensure is simply an economic cartel limiting, in theory, the supply of practioners. The public benefit is supposedly that the public has a good chance of getting a competent professional to do their work. I can attest however that it is not licensure and continuing education requirements that drive me to be competent, nor do they ensure my competence. I have seen a number of licensed professionals whose last professional act was to sit for the test. Unfortunately, I am not courageous enough to blow the whistle on them. BTW some of the best design engineers I know do not have licenses but work under another engineer's seal. Some of the worst engineers I know acutally have seals that they should only use as nutcrackers.

Licensed vs. Certified
I don't think that government should be licensing jobs. I think that for high-risk / high-skill jobs there should be certifications, and the marketplace always provides for that. The consumer can decide whether to use the services of someone who is not certified. I would suspect that surgeons/pilots/etc would all get certified, because who would fly on a commercial airline without certified pilots or get intensive medical care from a not certified doctor? But who cares if a barber is licensed or certified by someone? We don't need government getting in the middle where people can take care of themselves.

Economic Regulation Again
What does it say that in North Carolina the license fee for a fortune teller is higher thatn the license fee for a doctor?

Obama's response - Joe no license
Obama's campaign response to Joe the Plumber not having a license is just another example of Liberal dis-connect and ignorance of working people.

In the liberal view world every worker should be license, regulated, and taxed before engaging in employement.

Over the years this has resulted in many entry level jobs leaving the United States and going off shore where regulations do not interfere with a persons right to work..

Another negative effect of this policy is that poor people are no longer able to break into middle class jobs because they lack the means to comply with Government regulations like the "big guys" can.

sjpatejak
This a tactic used by both sides when losing an argument. Don't like the question (the answer was worse), attack the questioner. Are you planning on being one of Obama's security brown shirts?

Permission
In the natural state of freedom, one does not need a license to enter into a private transaction with another. A license is nothing more then government permission. If you have to ask permission, you are not free, you are leniently controlled. Government licensing of occupations should not and would not exist in a free society.

I say this as a licensed CPA.

JamesB
Actually I've been offered a position as Ubersturmbahnfuhrer of the Waffen OO.

Dodsworth: Love your pithy sens of humor.

licensing and training.
I graduated from an accredited dental school. Do we all understand what accreditation means. I means that the curriculum and staffing of the school were deemed by a private accrediting entity to be sufficient to administer training in the practice of dentistry. Here come the states with there licensing requirements. Requirement number one. graduate of an accredited dental school. If accreditation is the game-breaker why should there be a state license? Because the state believes in itself and its powers, specifically its power to tax and extract licensing fees. There is the answer. That is the only answer. As it is I and others are subject to the protective tendencies of the states to protect their own dentists. I am not free to move. States will strive to keep me out of their states if I do not fit their age profile. Oh yes oh yes!

Do not distract form the issue at hand..
.
...Mr. Steigerwald.

Obama's "ODE TO SOCIALISM" (formerly known as "I think if you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody.")

IS THE ISSUE AT HAND.

Hopefully you realize that the rest is tantamount to deception :
"ooh! look over there! there's a shiny penny! NO! don't listen to the message! it's all about the messenger!"

You know
I’m sorry that Joe got worked over by the media, but it wasn’t because he had the nerve to confront Barack Obama about taxation. It was because one side made him a hero. In our world, the moment one side declares someone to be a hero; the other side begins to castigate him. That goes for both liberals and conservatives.

Look into my eyes
Concentrate on the number $250,ooo and keep saying "that doesn't affect me, that doesn't affect me"

Now concentrate on tearing Joe down...

You are getting sleepy...very sleeepy.

Now go vote. Pull the D lever...

When I need a plumber who do I pick?
The one who's ad says he has a license or the one who does not? Or do I pick the baldheaded rightwing stooge tax cheat? We dropped the lipstick on a pig let Joe back to drinking and smoking dope on his couch.

I love this article.
We have lost so much freedom because of the nanny state. You can't sell cookies at the local gas station because of rules and regulations.

What they will accept is chemically ridden treats in which the wrapper has more flavor. So, we wonder why we aren't the creative society we used to be.

You turn on the radio and every song sounds the same because the Ivy Leaguer, cookie cutter man decides what we need to hear.

This is all becuase they believe they can play god and protect us all. Of course we are unable to make adult decisions ourselves. And then, when you look at the programming and commercials you see that adults act like 7th graders, why?

It is so apparent, we are rats in a box controlled by a stupid hierarchy of fools. Unfortunately, this years election proves that our population of fools is increasing. They pick pop stars instead of leaders. How Brittany Spears. Boy, John McCain was a prophet and he didn't even know it.

The problem what he is too adult for the population who has been molded by the "superstar" mentality.

Obama is the residue of a society of silly children going on forty.

Why Is Media Investigating Joe?
Funny how the media whines about how Bush treats terrorists but a citizen that asks Obama a question is treated like a criminal?

Is this how the new "changed" America under Obama will treat citizens that ask questions of politicians?

Obama never asked anyone to stop the harrassment did he?

licensing is a waste of talent...
...and personal income. All the government does is determine if someone is book-smart and has a good memory. When it comes to integrity and competence, fuggetabowdit.

I'm licensed in 2 different professions and certified in 2 others, and it cost a bundle just for the intial papers. The tests for all 4 were a breeze, but the costs every year to keep them current are an absolute financial nuisance.

In both professions I've witnessed complete incompetence and fraud at every turn, but oh, the framed and fancy-looking paperwork on the walls of these crooks and charlatans!

My paternal grandfather was a farmer and country veterinarian, the latter meaning he treated farm animals from lessons passed down from his father and grandfather. He raised 10 children on the income, and he was a good and honest man all his life - without government help or oversight. He'd be toast today.

Unfortunately, I live in a blue state and a majority of voters here are hardcore union people who expect the government to do for and watch over them in every aspect of life. They do so love their servile status, no matter how burdensome.



Hey Texasupchuck!
How would you like your life to be investigated and spread out all over the world just because you asked a question?

to texaschuck
Tradesmen must work under the license of another as journeymen for a gov't period of time before being eligible for licensure. Joe moved to Ohio and must meet their criteria. As a social worker, I have 25 years experience and have each clinical license that has come into vogue (yes, they change. Licensure boards are a business too). Despite my LSW, ACSW, CADC, and LCSW- if I moved, I'd have to meet another state's licensure criteria, including doing an internship (while working full time- can't be at the same place) then sit for yet another exam. Reciprocity does not lead to increased revenue to the gov't.

As for Joe's taxes, private contractors have to file quarterly. Here in Jersey, they have to pay payroll taxes despite having no employees and workman's comp despite never being able to collect it. Private businesses in Jersy work 7 months out of the year just to pay state and federal taxes. It is VERY easy to lose track of the quarterly pillage when working and average of 60-80 hours per week. You've never run a business, that much is plain.

How do you pick a plumber? Learn something of plumbing yourself, you whiny panty waste, then interview contractors or get a reference from a friend. You really think a government issued license is evidence of competence?? Gads.


Mary Hogan
In my high school there are police, metal detectors, occassional busts with dogs and paddy wagons- but SODA and CANDY are banned!

We had a fall dance past weekend and someone brought a big, beautiful tray of smores that had to be "removed"!!

In the City of Pontiac, MI....
..., a black, Democrat, crime-ridden community, an elderly black man was busted by the law for selling fried breaded fish sandwiches. This happened several years ago.

He fried the fish on the spot on a cut-down 55 gallon drum set-up, and worked in good weather on the proprety of an abandoned gas station. His product was great!

After the law "did its duty", he appeared in front of a judge, a black man, who loudly berated him for operating without a license,and then gave him a choice between a hefty fine or 90 DAYS IN JAIL. He dug deep and paid up.

That pretty much ended the old gentleman's enterprise.

The city is now safe from people like this elderly man who used his ample spare time to make a few bucks making people happy. Of course, in Pontiac, you'll get mugged or worse at the drop of a hat.

You just got to love government, eh, Dems?

Fortune tellers?
FORTUNE TELLERS??!! You mean to tell me there are states in which the government will sanction with a license, someone who is a professional fraud?

In the immortal words of Bart Simpson, “Aye carumba!”

But seriously, Dodsworth
You brought up the question of licenses for drivers and pilots. I am actually in favor of licensing for those activities. Here’s why.

For motorists, it’s first a simple matter of property rights. The government owns the road; therefore it can set the rules for use of said road. Second, that government-owned road is my only access to places other than my own property, an attractive alternative to asking everyone between my home and Burger King if I can cross their properties on my way to get a Whopper. It’s a comfort to know that my fellow motorists have passed a minimum competency test in order to be there, although often not much.

On the subject of pilots: before I give someone implicit permission to cross the airspace over my house, I insist that they have shown a high degree of skill in handling an aircraft. Again, it’s a property rights issue. All government has done is to streamline the process.

Now, as to some of this other stuff – it does smack of lunacy.

Single vs Married Under the Obama Tax Pl
According to Obama's website tax plan, singles would not see a tax increase on $200k, however, two income married family will see their taxes increase after $250k. 2009 will be the year of divorces if Obama gets elected.

Texaschuck...Sigh........
As a former owner of a service company in Texas (yours & my state) Licenses are only given to those who pass the STATE test, and in Texas the owner has the license...The workers can work under the licensed owner or get a state license to work under their own.

You call Joe a phony? I guess all your dreams have come true? Or are you waiting for Obama to snap his fingers & Voila!! Dream granted?




hmmmmmmm
i happen to be an electrician and electrical contractor. Let me say the article is correct. i know of electrical contractors who do very shoddy work. and guess what? they can show you their licenses. And i know of a guy who does electrical work and has been for years and taught me a lot of the electrical trade. He just never took the time to learn to take the electrical exam. Ha he knows what he is doing and very good at it. I have to renew my electrical licenses with the state of Ky soon. So that is $300 and then renew my insurance for general liability and then workmans comp. Guess who pays for that? Any wonder why people look at the bill and say "opps". But guess what they still call me since i am cheaper than most of them. And i do a very good job in house wiring.

might
i have to disagree with you, might. the drivers licensure right of governments is used to harass and discriminate against some drivers who drive safely, and is not used to adentify chronic criminals (illegal aliens). what use is it as a still-living private pilot, i can assure you that flying is a winnowing activity, and if u dont know what you are doing, you wont need the government to tell you so, and the one at least risk is the one who lives on the ground. but one question for the forum: is community organizer a licensed occupation?

In Texas...
you have to have a license to "sell" real estate...that is supposedly to protect those buying houses from all those crooked walk through monitors (real estate agents).

Bottom line, that license and a majority of the rest that are required to get a simple job are nothing but union inspred restrictions to keep the job seekers down and those that have those jobs' salaries up.

Yes, we all know some occupations should require a license/training etc etc...but many do not and those are the ones that are rediculous.

Joe the Plumber's situation is that he works for a "LICENSED MASTER PLUMBER". I, for one, do my own work on most all the trades...being an Engineer, I am 1000 times smarter than any Lib that ever called a plumber (/S). I'm sure Joe has learned his trade well regardless of the low, cheap shots he's been taking from the experts of the left crowd.

Scary Obama and followers
Attacking an individual citizen asking a simple question. How will Americans be treated if Obama and his followers are elected. No more freedom of speech.

A test shows you paid the state
That's all.

As for buying the business, many business owners hold the mortgage or continue as a silent partner while the new owner gets established. $280,000.00 is NOTHING to finance for a small business. Again, like Obama and unlike the Palins, you've never run a business. It really shows.

For someone who can't pick a plumber without the gov't holding your hand, your opinions on what constitutes competence are quite rigid.

Right Makes Right
Actually, I think its a business license for said professions. My point being the attempt to economically control certain trades.

Lone
What's your point. Sen Byrd (D,WVA) was at one time a klan legal officer. I doubt seriously that he has repented his 'private' opinion since dropping memberhsip.

Lone - I salute your wisdom bro
And thanks to David Gregory's crack reporting - we now know that 'Joe' is actually that dude's middle name. What a cover-up! Being for less taxes and individual rights makes one not only a racist - but a nazi too. You're so spot on brother.

Yea Mick!!
Yep,Some Texans are just smarter than others.

Lone
Anti illegal immigration is not anti-immigration.

Anti-same sex marriage is not the same thing as hatred of homosexuals.

Ohio
Has another hero. An elderly man in a nursing home was told that he must vote for Obama when he refused he was beat up by an Acorn lady. Ohio is full of heroes who are really just ordinary people trying to keep their rights.

Re: Why Joe might not help the reps
As someone who neither voted for G.W. Bush nor for either dem running against him, I am what you might consider a moderate or independent. A swing voter, if you will. I had conservative leanings at the time of registering recently and did cast my first ballot for president years ago for Robert Dole. Now a registered Republican ballot with lots of check marks next to Dem names just went into a ballot box in a swing state this afternoon. Want to know why? The Reps. have managed to narrow who they represent to the point that people who are moderate have little choice this election but to vote for Senator Obama. McCain is a person I respected and would have voted for 8 years ago, but his angry stances during this election season, and those of his supporters (yelling "Kill him!" and "Terrorist!") have completely pushed me FAR away from the Rep. party. This is disturbing behavior. So this Joe guy being mentioned is a pretty shady character who should have (if the Reps. were smart) gone back into obscurity. He doesn't care about what his tax bracket is because he doesn't pay them anyway. I don't really care about Joe the Plumber, but the hypocritical stances being put out there to defend the guy because he represents some form of conservative view point are just one more nail in the coffin as far as moderates go. Sarah Palin and those nuts yelling "Kill him!" are other, bigger nails. I think I've wasted enough time here...let the election speak for itself. You reps are in trouble.

Joe was saying what we all need to hear
The man was simply stating that he wants to keep more of the money he works his a$$ off for.
What the hell is wrong with that??
If Obama's constituents worked for a living, perhaps they would feel the same way about their hard earned money.
Here's a new thought...HOW ABOUT, THE NEXT TIME YOU GET THAT BIG FAT WELFARE CHECK, GIVE BACK 20% OF IT TO YOUR WHITE NEIGHBOR.
Put a smile on whitey's face for a change!

Some of these arguments are off pt.
Joe doesn't need a license in OH if he works under someone with a license exept commercially.

All states do not have the same procedures.

Joe's pt. in asking the Great O if the Land of O would prevent Joe from buying a business and making a possible $250,000 was not about Joe's tax program--it was about the O's program,

which will raise marginal rates on virtually everyone who now pays taxes and transfer much of that money to people in the form of tax credits and who do not pay any taxes now or in the Land of O.

Whether nurses or teachers or immigrants or whatever fall into conditions of licensure is another issue.

Raising taxes is not a good idea in bad ec. times. JFK cut taxes after his stock crash called Black Monday. Reagan cut taxes to end the Carter infinite recession. Bush cut taxes BACK to where they were before Clinton had the biggest tax hike in history in 1993.

Bush' tax cuts just gave all of you 5 years of boom following 9/11--low interest, low inflation, high employment (still at 6%--Carter's was 10%), and the credit crisis is a Dem. fiasco from forcing financials to lend to deadbeats and crooks.

Get rid of them.

Vote McCsin/Palin for believable change in DC.

License may be the least of his worries
After the BHO campaign gets through investigating him and ruining his life, he will need to worry about a miltary draft, because if BHO is elected, the military will be practically unsuccessful in recruiting when the military budgets are slashed and they are deployed to Africa to feed the hungry and probably without weapons. Heck, the BHO rules of engagement manual will be about 2 inches thick, filled with uncomprehendable jibberish. AND, pracically every service member involved in a military engagement will be investigated and prosecuted for war crimes.

Sandy, YOUR JOE was on WELFARE
Joe the Plumber, I mean Welfare Recipient.

SHOULD not your ignorant fake plumber GIVE IT BACK?

Joe the "Plumber," say on Fox News Sunday that HE was on welfare at one point in his life. (At which point the segment was brought rather quickly to an end...but not before one of the hosts could slip in some obligatory spin with "But it was just a hand up, not a hand out, right? Right?!!!")

He even added his biggest 'complaint' about the (damned) welfare system in this country: the asinine regulations that, when someone, like HIS welfare friends, he cited, earns even $5 too much, they suddenly lose all their child care benefits.


HA! HA! HA!


On Hannity and Colmes interview with Joe the Welfare Recipient. He actually repeated both his comments about being on welfare and about his friends who lose their childcare if they make too much. Hannity barreled right over it like he never heard anything!!!!!!!


Ohio: McPalin Workers & Vote Fraud
Out-of-state McCain/Palin campaign workers have registered to vote in Ohio with no intent to stay in-state AND ARE REGISTERED IN OTHER STATES.


http://pnohio.3cdn.net/dc3e5231706a69e17d_bom6i24bl.pdf


Research by ProgressOhio confirms what has appeared in numerous Ohio blogs;

Ryan Meerstein is currently the State Director for McCain's campaign in Ohio. Online biographies indicate he has worked for political campaigns or parties in four different states during the past two years (for the RNC in Virginia, for Sen. Corker's campaign in Tennessee, for Rudy Giuliani in South Carolina, and McCain in Ohio). He attended college in a fifth state, and his given hometown is in a sixth state.

The Franklin County Board of Elections reports receiving his completed absentee ballot on October 14. Record that indicates Mr. Meerstein is also currently registered to vote in South Carolina.

Other high-level McCain Ohio staffers such as Paul Lindsay and Jason Levine also appear to have recently moved to the state and registered to vote, while displaying no greater or lesser likelihood to remain a resident than some of the Vote From Home volunteers.

Speaking of licenses
The board of elections in every state should REQUIRE a picture ID to vote. It would eliminate the ACORN problem.

Professional Frauds
Right Makes Right in PA said,

"FORTUNE TELLERS??!! You mean to tell me there are states in which the government will sanction with a license, someone who is a professional fraud?"

In California we do not require professional frauds to be licensed; we elect them to public office.

tale of two joes
I'd take a dozen Joe the Plumbers over Joe the Village Idiot Biden and Barry Spread the Wealth and Pass the Caviar Obam any day.

Not so Old Social Worker
We have watched our freedoms go up in smoke, OSW. The not so funny thing is that we helplessly watched them go because of the mindset of the kind of people voting for Obama.

I worked at a school where you couldn't even suspend the drug dealers.

I don't know.


You know how it is, Mary
Its so frustrating! Every single one of our staff and faculty complain bitterly about how things have come to be in education and corrections over the past 25-30 years. All of them agree that criminals now have more rights than law abiding citizens; that the our district has tons of money that is sqaundered or outright stolen; that the curriculum has become so horrifically watered down; that we can be sued for doing or saying what is necessary in both counseling and teaching., and that self-entitlement rules the day. All of these things are due to liberal ideology in practice, and most of my coworkers are voting for Obama and can't even say why other than they hate George Bush (and some don't know why they hate Bush).

Dear Mary Hogan,
You have watched your freedomes go up in smoke? Because of the kind of people voting for Obama?

Did you know that the liberal movement gave women the right to vote?

Do you also understand that the relaxing of regulations in the financial sector, as well as the oil industry, has led to the collapse we are currently living through? Do you wanna take a guess as to which party orchestrated this deregulation? You betcha, Republicans!



Obama's Radical + Communist Alliances
Bill Ayers is a carefully chosen friend of Barrack Obama. Born in 1944, Currently a professor of education at the University of Illinois.
1) Leader of the 1960s and 70s domestic terrorist group Weatherman. The Weatherman issued a 'Manifesto', calling for armed opposition to US policies, includig Capitalism and asked white radicals to launch a 'Race War' against 'White Skin Privilege'. Leaders like Mark Rudd (currently a mathematics professor at a New Mexico community college) traveled illegally to Cuba in 1968 for terroist training by Soviet KGB Colonel Vadim Kotchergine, who taught Marxist philosophy and urban warfare. Weather men always spelled America - 'AmeriKKKa'.

2) "Kill all the rich people. ... Bring the revolution home. Kill your parents." Bill Ayers

3) Participated in the bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, of the Capitol building in 1971, and the Pentagon in 1972. Ayers proudly stated that he didn’t "regret setting the bombs. I feel we didn’t do enough."

"America is NOT a just and fair and decent place - it makes me want to puke." Ayers said in 2001

In the mid-1990s, Ayers and his wife Bernardine Dohrn hosted meetings at their Chicago home to introduce Barack Obama to their neighbors during Barack Obama's first run for the Illinois Senate.

In 1999 Ayers joined the Woods Fund of Chicago, where he served as a director alongside Barack Obama until the Obama left the Woods board in December 2002.

Review of Chicago Annenberg Challenge (CAC) documents shows that Ayers and Obama each chaired the two CAC operating bodies from 1995 to 2000. Michelle Obama started working at a law firm with Bernadette Dohrn, Ayers wife, in 1985.

Read about many more Radical and Communist alliances at this link.

http://hisfacts.blogtownhall.com/2008/10/21/obamas_radical_ and_communist_alliances.thtml

Licensing
I am shocked, shocked to learn that, while you need a license to be a hairdresser, ANYONE can call himself a reporter. An incompetent hairdresser could cause a few people embarassment for a few weeks until their hair grows back. An incompetent reporter could publish inaccurate stories that destroy the lives of thousands of people. Inaccurate reporting about a health hazard or a war could result in thousands of deaths. How come liberals aren't clamoring for reporters to be licensed?

Lone, Don't Forget
In addition to Joe the Plumber, who according to McCain is one of his "friends" and evaded paying taxes which is against the law, is the fact that the Alaskan state government receives more federal dollars than any other state.

Gee, it's no wonder Palin had no problem balancing her budget. She received more tax dollars, and more oil subsidies than anyone else.

She is not qualified to hold the VP office. She has not international experience, nor does she have any understanding of the federal process. If the Dems ever nominated her, you bet the Republicans would be all over her. They are lying to themselves by supporting her.


Lone, no one is opposed to welfare
when people need a hand up. Its the communities of people who organize their entire lives around gov't dependency that are problematic.

In my profession, I'm looking at generations of dependents, many of whom have no intention of making personal changes (especially in terms of reproduction-must have LOTS of kids)- they just figure out how to get more services and accommodations and are quite good at it. There are many more services and dependents than when I started in the field 25 years ago. Its a big business in many areas. Add in open borders and throngs of bureaucrats with nice salaries and hefty pensions (I am one- so I know without equivocation that this is true).

What Obama proposes is unsustainable and causes more social problems than it helps, as evidenced by many of our inner cities.


Teaching licenses don't mean much
anymore, judging from the stupid people holding diplomas these days, many of them can't pass tests we had in the seventh grade and everything has to be spelled out for them like children. It's shocking and schools do not give the really good teachers and students the proper conditions to succeed, anymore.

Obama doesn't seem very intelligent, either. I'd like to see his school records, which he is hiding. His wife did let it slip she flunked her entrance exams to law school, but Affirmative Action got her in, which means some hard working qualified student was left out.

Republicans and women
Subcritical says, "You have watched your freedomes [sic] go up in smoke? Because of the kind of people voting for Obama? Did you know that the liberal movement gave women the right to vote?"

Umm, no. "I shall work for the Republican party and call on all women to join me, precisely for what the party has done and promises to do for women, nothing more, nothing less" -- Susan B Anthony. See Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, 17th Ed, p 522.

A liberal perspective
(And the only one that intelligent people hold, of course)

Jimmy Carter - Peanut farmer, good
Joe the Plumber- Plumber, Bad

Obama - No "pick a document" (won't release anything), good
Joe The Plumber - No license (which he does not even legally require), bad

John Kerry - fought in Vietnam, good
McCain - War hero, bad

Hillary Clinton - Working Mother, good
Sarah Palin - Working Mother, bad

Obama Cocaine use - Youthful indiscretion, good
Cindy McCain - pill addiction - bad

John Kerry - Wealth, good
McCain - Wealth, bad

Bill Clinton - Governor of a small state, good
Sarah Palin - Governor of a large state, bad

Actually, I just realized I could sit here and do this all night....so I will stop. But the attacks against Joe the plumber for his lack of license are unreal--would that the MSM were researching Obama's documentation with the same zeal and thoroughness!

Missing the point
If he made 250k, he can afford the extra $900 in taxes.
Since he doesn't make that, he will pay less under Obama's plan.
Next time highlight that in your story.

right-side-up
You need to read your history. She rejected Quaker conservative religion and joined a Unitarian Church.

She was a social activist, and liberal minded in her ideals.

The only thing conservative about her was to take a more moderate approach to the womens movement as opposed to a more radical approach many women favored.

Tyler
With the caveat that I don't understand economics well, I read did read today, that even should the plumber make $270,000 a year, his taxes would actually only go up a few hundred.

"
So, as I said, I make $280,000 annually after business expenses. I'm married and filing jointly. Under Obama, my itemized deductions would actually increase slightly — I'd get $49,420 in itemized deductions, while under McCain I'd get $48,975. But my personal exemptions would increase slightly under McCain — he'd give me $6,911, whereas I'd only get $6,132 from Obama.



That leaves my taxable income at $213, 766 under Obama, $213,433 under McCain. Now we have to factor in the bracket cutoff, which for 2009 is $208,850. Anything below that figure for married couples filing jointly is taxed at the fourth tier, 28 percent. Any income above it, until you get up to near $400,000, is taxed at the fifth tier. And this is where the raving income-redistribution scheme of Barack Robespierre Obama kicks in.

As you can see, my taxable income is about $5,000 higher than the cutoff. McCain is going to tax that $5,000 at the current rate, which is 33 percent. But Obama's crazed plan calls for raising that rate to — get ready for it — 35 percent.

And here's what this means. Under McCain, my total tax bill would be $48,254. Under Obama, it would be $48,511.

That's a difference of $257. I'll say it again: Two hundred and fifty-seven dollars.


Protection from fraud
Why don't we just license politicians? I mean, we need to "protect the health, safety and welfare of the public from fraudulent and unethical practitioners." I can't see any politicians passing classes for that! No more politicians = We The People taking back our country.

right side up?
Talk about a misnomer.

Blather king or queen would have been a much more appropriate name.


Taft
Are you complaining about Obama's tax plan and how you'd have to pay an additional $257.00 because of it?

Did you vote for Bush? Both times? And you support the war in Iraq?

If so, then consider it a tax on you for supporting a president (Bush) that has liberally spent more than any other president in the history of the US.

Amen to Celt
LOVE the idea of licensing politicians....talk about the MSM's eternal cry of "proper vetting".

subcritical
I'm on your side buddy. I thought that information was positive. No, I'd never vote for Bush.

Important Facts
- 95% of American Workers, yes workers, will get a tax cut. This does not mean welfare, the people have to be working.

- Under 250k a year, you get a tax cut.

- If you make 250k a year, your taxes will go up by $900. That isn't very much. They can afford it.

- Small businesses won't see tax increases as long as the owner doesn't make more than 250k a year in net profit. Yes, net profit, after all expenses, wages, etc.

Right side up?
Hm, the Suffragette movement was a notorious hotbed of lesbianism and hedonistic libertine values.

Now, do you really think that women would not eventually get the opportunity to vote in the 20th century? I say they would have, but with clean motivation instead of the cladenstine vileness of sexual immorality.

These women were into destruction of the family.
We now live in a society where the market bears a two parent work force. The implications are vast, and the damage is irrevocable.

Liberals....

Taft
I don't get what you are talking about. $257 is not a big deal.

Licensing
I agree with the entire premise of the article. Licensing in construction trades does not protect the public at all. there are a multitude of licensed contractors and subs that are horrible.

Yeah
i voted for Bush both times. i support Iraq as did Pelosi, Reid, Schumer and the rest of the traitors.
And i will not support an Islamic sympathizer socialist that is a traitor will cost the country dearly. but you idiots will find out the hard way.

Uh
Hillary Clinton - Working Mother, good
Sarah Palin - Working Mother, bad
-----------------------------------

Uh, guess which of them has 5 chillin'--including one who is pregnanti and one who has a severe disability.

The other only has uno. Uno can work, fy-yve (5)
should stay home.

Turban Joe
So, pray tell, what is the number at which it is no longer acceptable for a Mother to work? Who decides that number?

Most importantly, what if what Sarah Palin is doing will benefit her children and grandchildren in the long run much more than her being at home (in her case...I am all for Moms staying at home).

Maybe..Journalists should be required to
Get a license...Given their influence on America's uninformed. Joe just gives Hot and Cold running water...today’s journalist give us propaganda! Are they auditioning for the big Money...can you say Arab! :)

Owner
Joe does not need a license if he wants to own a plumbing company, a plumber's license, that is, he only needs to go through the channels of starting a company and hire licensed plumbers to do the work.

Example of unneeded licenses
The agency I work for has been unable to recruit Alaskan psychiatrists in recent years because Alaska is just not the sort of culture most psychiatrists would thrive in. Most psychiatrists are, frankly, certifiable and Alaskans are, well, frankly, conservative and pointed in our observations, so, frankly, most psychiatrists don't want to live here. Thus, the problem with recruitment.

So, we make up for this by leasing visiting psychiatrists through a medical girl-friday service. Alaska requires they get an AK medical license, which is harder than it might seem, since several of the psychiatrists we've attempted to lease have been unable to pass the test. They are often licensed in two or more other states, but they have to have an AK license, so ....

Just one example of a licensing requirement that doesn't protect the public because there is a severe shortage of psychiatrists in AK, so that our mentally ill population is forced to go to the few available or to go to general practitioners who really don't know what they're doing. This results sometimes in unmedicated or poorly medicated psychotics who kill the public.

Taft
You're not factoring in what universal health "insurance" is going to cost you. It's about 30 percent of income in England, according to my friend Carolyn who is from there. Guess why she lives here? Tha's right! She gets to keep that 30 percent of her income and spend it how she likes, since she has a job that provides her health insurance.

Wow, what a concept! Having a job! Keeping your money. Spending it where you see fit. Carolyn's mother is in the States now undergoing cancer treatment she couldn't get in England because some bureaucrat decided it wasn't "appropriate". She's been in remission months now, well past the date when she was supposed to have died from the cancer.

Yeah, universal health insurance -- an Obama "gift" that will just keep taking and taking and taking.

aurorawatcher..this whole Alaskan rape
thing we hear about in MSM ...True ?

Ron

Yep, them Alaskans get raped every April 15, just like the rest of us!

vote smart, vote on facts
Let’s argue with facts. Based on data from Bloomberg, from end of WWII to present (1945-2008):

The US economy has grown on average 2.8% under Republican administrations, versus 4.4% under Democrats per year. Advantage: Democrats by 1.7%.

The stock market has grown on average 6.6% per year under Republican, versus 11% per year under Democrats. Advantage: Democrats by 4.4%. For similar results using a slightly longer data going back to just after the Great Depression, see http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/09/05/are-republican-pr esidents-better-for-the-stock-market/ (if you google it, you'll find a regular plus for Americans in the stock market under democrats), where the data show that "Democratic presidents generate average stock market returns in excess of the risk-free rate of 10.69% -- roughly six times the 1.69% earned under Republican administrations”.

The economy has added 89K jobs per month under Republican administrations, versus 182K jobs per month under Democrats. Advantage: Democrats by 93K.

The average unemployment rate has been 5.9% under Republican administrations, versus 5.1% under Democrats per year. Advantage: Democrats by 0.8%.

Folks, ignore focus-group words such as liberal, conservative, socialism, free market that mean completely different things to different people, and vote based on facts. The facts are that, if you want better economy, more jobs, better investment returns, vote Democrats. If you want slower economy, less jobs created, and lower investment returns, vote Republicans.

salty... :) actually raped every day ..
Did you know that the "Royalties" paid to our gov from oil taken from Alaska is not considered taxes! The return on taxes paid showing Alaska No.2 is totally misleading. :) They have... and are being screwed every day. :)

You have to have a license
to drive a car and buy a gun, but any old unqualified member of the leftist illuminati can run for President!

Joe the Plumber is a Hero
Joe asks a question that reveals that Obama is at heart a Socialist. What happens to Joe? He gets investigated by the gestapo media and treated like a criminal.

This ticks me off!

Once again, we're seeing how Obama operates. This is a preview of what will happen with more regularity under an Obama regime.

I think that Joe the Plumber is a hero! He's an American who wants to better himself. He's willing to work to do it. What is wrong with that? Absolutely nothing!

Idiots
delight in touting for Obama..my son owns a very small business however while his books show he's done well over Barack Hussein Obama's punitive fine mark, the costs of the food he uses in his business have skyrocketed along with the gas the DemonRATS refuse to do anything about. He's been taxed every which way imaginable, so his
profit margin is barely enought to get by but the rising costs are not helping his cash flow. He says if Obama is elected and this
robber baron reparations scheme is enacted he will go under. The useful idiots who think
Obama is their saviour haven't a clue, all they see is the sum of $250,000 and that taxing
those making that is beautiful revenge for their less than adequate lives. The bible has something to say about those who will not work, it also says neither shall they eat, yet we continuer to reward sloth by punishing the industrious. I'm a mama bear when it comes to my cubs and I'm
outraged that this marxist closet islamist has the gall to inflict more pain and punishment on my KID! I'm not fond of McC's political split personality but he's better than that creep Obama and SARAH is 100% better than any of the three. I'm voting for her!

right-side-up
"...an incompetent reporter..."

Bet you can't name just one...

This Reporter is a DingBat
This reporter (Steigerwald) is pretty stupid. Let's see if he'll take the same attitude if he goes into Surgery and the Surgeon is not board certified or "License". Maybe he should ask himself if he would hire Joe the Plumber if he has a leak in his home plumbing.

Licensing offers a certain level of proficiency or skill set. For all the WingNuts who agrees with this reporter, you are just a big of a DingBat.

Just imagine, we're 14 days away from electing President Obama to a landslide victory. But don't worry, there's enough time for all the WingNuts on this Website to form a Jonestown's style - KoolAid Pact. That's right, Obama Wins, you all drink the KoolAid to escape to your "Real America". Good Riddance!

Obama/Biden '08

Excuse me,
but wasn't it McCain who propelled Plumber Joe into the limelight?
So let McCain pay for the Joe's certification, give him a loan so he doesn't lose his house and give him a second loan to buy his business.

Certification? The Right(sic) writers have been spouting about Union Blackmail? Would you let a non-certified electrician work on your house? Would you let someone without a drivers license drive a school bus - a driving license is also just 'certification', or a teacher, or a doctor or a gas-pipe installer?

Sheesh! You guys are just soooo stupid sometimes.

C'MON OBAMA!!!

Joe the Plumber

Joe the Plumber never did anything to hurt my family. Liberals have.

Licenses

It is a shame that those who require testing for a license do not require the same of themselves.

Yearly "ethics" courses should be a requirement for all public servants including elected politicians. (Most would fail thus you do not get a license to be a politician or a bureaucrat)
A yearly requirement understanding the Constitution and what restrictions it has placed on Government. (100% would fail thus we would have no licenses issued therefore none can hold office or be a bureaucrat)
A yearly requirement they publish any and all problems they have ever had with the law with detailed explanations. (Most would lie thus failing the ethics exam and no license will be issued to practice being a politician)
If it is discovered you lied or cheated in anyway it is a felony subject to 5 years in jail and a $250,000 fine. One problem is our jails would be over flowing.

Just these 3 requirements would eliminate the size of government by about 33%.

Some licensing is OK
I want my doctor, lawyer, accountant, dentist, pilot, real estate agent, real estate appraiser, stock broker, customs broker, and truck driver to be licensed. Mainly because I want gross deeds of misconduct that don't get them put in prison to keep them from holding that job. I give, as an example, Mike Nifong, the (now disbarred) former District Attourney of Durham, NC. He used his position for personal political gain while making a positive effort to ruin the lives of three people accused of a crime that no one committed. He should never be allowed to chase ambulances again.

You have the right to earn a living. You do not have the right to your preferred line of work. That's a privilege you must earn through competence, education, training, experience, and (in many cases) ethical behavior.

Shocking video of Congress cover up
Shocking video of Congressmen in their Own Words Covering Up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam That Caused Our Economic Crisis See Clinton placing the blame! Click on the link.
http://www.teleprompterpresident.com/2008/09/shocking-video .html
or google the phrase "Teleprompter Covering Up The Fannie Mae".

This wonderful video clearly explains how it all happened at:
http://www.teleprompterpresident.com/2008/10/fnc-fbn-inves- 6.html
or google the phrase "Teleprompter Covering Up The Fannie Mae".

Every American should know who caused our financial collapse which resulted in our 401ks and our home values to sink in value. We have been betrayed, not by the obvious greed of the banks, but by our congressmen who caused this to happen.

I have emailed these videos to everyone in my email address list. Spread this message

Kev: Board Certified =Competent?
KeV note that you cannot choose a non-board certified surgeon for you surgery. Also being Board certified does not mean competent. I seem to remember a recent case in which Duke Hospital put the wrong heart in a young hispanic woman. She ultimately died despite efforts to fix the problem. This same hospital system accidentally used dirty hydraulic fluid to 'sterilize' surgical instruments resulting with a number of private citizens with ongoing health problems. How about the surgeon(s) who amputate the wrong limb or remove the wrong organ? Licensure is not equal to either competence or ethics.

As for plumbing I can thread a pipe or solder as well as the next guy. However, I don't know the building code and thus resort to someone who has theoretically studied it.

No license needed for manure spreaders?
Pretty typical for the bureaucrats to exempt themselves from the regulations they subject the rest of us to, isn't it? :)

ulster
You are correct in that licensing does not equal competance. The same holds true for degrees confering intelligence (I've known some very dumb people who have EdD, PhD, or JD appended to their name.)

What licensing DOES do is give the state an avenue by which the particularly incompetent or unethical can be prevented from practicing their profession in the future. Note my earlier comment on Mike Nifong.

Piffle
"...the Republican Party's newest working-class hero from Ohio, has been ridiculed and had his private life probed since he had the nerve to confront Barack Obama..."
Joe's scrutiny lies directly at the feet of John McCain's use of his "confrontation" 20 some-odd times during the last debate.
McCain brought this scrutiny on good ol' Joe.
A little accuracy in the discussion, please.

Lone
Michigan is so blue that it could be a Picasso, and with that, the truth goes out the window. You really should stay away from those leftists websites.

So you love government regulating your life, even though you will not comply with any rules it lays down. "Urban" folks love and worship Dem politicians with their volumes of rules and new laws even though they don't remotely follow them. And you're worried about some imaginary threat from a dead racist gaggle.

Have someone read the article to you and then explain it. It's about government's pathological addiction to control others.

Take a breath and those few pills you need daily to function, and then plan on leaving your momma's basement for your own digs. Until then, have yourself licensed, and then put the metal tag on your gold neck chain.


Licensure
Why can't licensure be voluntary? Get certified by whatever professional or regulatory agency you want and then practice the profession. If you don't want to bother with the credentials but simply want to practice the profession go for it. However, if you claim fraudulently a certification you don't have then it is off to the jailhouse for you. That way the market will decide how useful and valuable these professional certification and licensure rules really are. If the uncertified and unlicensed prosper it will prove how pointless the rules were, if they don't then the rules have value.

"certification"
One only has to look at the state of "public education in parts of this country to see the results of "certification".
There is a push by one of our legislators in Michigan to "register" all home schooled students. This legislator's district happens to include Flint, which has one of the worst dropout rates and student achievement rates in the country.
It is a fact that many qualified individuals are kept out of the teaching profession by "certification". Of course, the teacher unions are behind this "registration" of home schooled students. Beware, Michigan home schoolers, registration will lead to prohibition. Look at California, which recently OUTLAWED home schooling.

aurorawatcher
Sorry about your problem. What is your governor doing about this?

Only reason to "license" - you read
the building code.

"As for plumbing I can thread a pipe or solder as well as the next guy. However, I don't know the building code and thus resort to someone who has theoretically studied it. "

That "assumes" that those that wrote the "code" even know what they are doing. We have many examples in my county of where contractors ARE doing the job in the proper and safe manner, but the code writer had "no clue" and wrote into "code" something that does not work, and is actually a hazard in real life.


Bas
On all the claims about the superior economic performance of Democrat presidents.

Much of the averages you cite on the Democrat side can be attributed to the presidency of William J. Clinton who had the benefit of a booming economy and over-inflated stock and housing markets fueled by the Dot Com bubble that burst toward the end of his administration, the effects of which were felt well into Bush the Younger's. Bush the Younger also had the Enron, MCI Worldcom, et al. problems that all developed under the "burgeoning" Clinton economy, and, of course September 11, the planning of which extended well back into the Clinton years and had a profound effect on the economy. Clinton's "Good economy" was a sham that was destined to fail. Clinton was simply lucky enough to be lame ducked by the time it did.

Happy Jake
I tend to agree with you on the subject of Mike Nifong. IMHO he should be paying the student's legal bills as well as damages, pain and suffering well into the hereafter. I suspect that the there were earlier ethical lapses on Mr. Nifong's part that were dealt with by the Bar (in his case).

I am a licensed engineer and that has always been a point of pride for me. However, I have come to see it in many cases as credentialism pure and simple. Many view the license as their ticket into the game and nothing more.

AF_retiree_01
Correct. But my ratinale still stands as 'code' is the governing regulation whether or not I agree with it.

Tom
What you wrote makes entirely too much sense. As well, you just probably gave a dozen or so Democrats seizures by your post. For shame.

A license without work?
Democrats can't blame Joe the Plumber for what comes out of Obama's mouth.

America has already been hit hard by manufactured crisis.
The fuel crisis and the mortgage crisis were both deliberately caused by Democrats.

Spread the wealth around by putting a cap on the earnings of small business will cause widespread unemployment and a major DEPRESSION!

Small business provides most of America's jobs.
Putting a cap on their earnings will not just prevent small business from expanding, it will cause major cut backs.

Our people create the actual wealth of this Nation.
Obama WANTS to prevent them from working.
Obama wants Americans to suffer so they will accept "Change" to his form of Government.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=3036055756 73142

Obama is a parasite elitist who has never worked a day in his life or earned an honest dollar.
Academics and crooked politics is all Obama knows and even at that, he has never won an honest election!

licensing.
Do you want to go to a Doctor who has not passed a test to see if he is a competent doctor. Do you want some Joe off the street to plumb you house and have no evidence he knows what he's doing?

Nortonsnotions
You are incorrect in that the workers have to be licenced plumbers. I worked for a plumbing company for two years and I most assuredly am NOT licenced. The only problem is that if something happens later, the company is responsible.

hiring unlicensed
I bet everyone has hired some unlicensed person to do something because you trusted them and it was cheaper. I loved this article. About time some one said what a crock licensing is.

Read about the Real Plumbers of Ohio

Read about the "Real Plumbers of Ohio." And, Joe is not one of them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/20/opinion/20krugman.html?em
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