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Thursday, March 13, 2008
Bill Steigerwald :: Townhall.com Columnist
Elizabeth Kolbert's Alarming Global Warming Sermon
by Bill Steigerwald
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Elizabeth Kolbert of The New Yorker did not appreciate being ambushed by the local press.

But the superstar journalist, though wary, was a good sport when she was gently questioned by a fellow journalist recently in the nearly empty lobby of the Carnegie Music Hall in the Oakland section of Pittsburgh.

"Turnabout is fair play, I guess," she said to her interrogator, smiling but looking uncomfortable as she defended her well-known role as a global warming alarmist by saying humbly -- and disingenuously -- that she's not a scientist but merely a reporter who relies "on the consensus of the scientific community."

Kolbert had parachuted deep into Flyover Country to deliver a lecture/slide-show about global climate change to 960 Pittsburghers at the prestigious Drue Heinz Lectures series.

Her presentation was based on "The Climate of Man," the three-part, one-sided, epic magazine series she wrote for The New Yorker in the spring of 2005. Finely written and thoroughly reported, the series became the 2006 book "Field Notes From a Catastrophe: Man, Nature, and Climate Change."

The series, which won Kolbert lots of praise and awards from the environmentalist industry and its captive journalists, was really a protracted testimonial on behalf of the Al Gore Brand version of anthropogenic global warming.

Kolbert's Pittsburgh lecture stuck to the familiar alarmist story line. Though she promised her audience she'd present an unbiased account, Kolbert had no time for scientific uncertainty or debate. She used the usual photos of shrinking polar sea ice, upwardly angled temperature and CO2 charts and computer models to paint a grim scenario of unavoidable climate troubles ahead.

Shortly after Kolbert confessed to feeling guilty about the big carbon footprint she left in the sky by taking a plane to Pittsburgh, she did something surprising: She fessed up to reality and acknowledged that global warming was a humanly unsolvable problem.

She wished she had a 10-point plan to "get ourselves out of this mess," she said, but there are no easy answers.

"Just to stabilize the greenhouse gas composition in the atmosphere," she said, "we have to cut our current emissions by 60, 70, 80 percent."

"That's huge. It's going to take pretty much everything we've got, and then some," she said, ticking off such necessary remedies as conservation, land-use planning, a tax on carbon -- or "perhaps just making due with less -- living differently."

Kolbert concluded her lecture by dropping any remaining pretense of being a fair-and-balanced journalist. Speaking as a mother and an inhabitant of Earth, she said it is morally unacceptable to just throw up our hands and not try to do something about global warming.

"It must be confronted in our individual lives, our communities and on Capitol Hill," she said, adding: "It seems to me that every single one of us should be thinking about this, thinking about what we can do, and then doing it. So I'm going to end tonight with a question for you, and that is, 'What exactly are we waiting for?' "

The applause that followed was genuine. Sadly, however, no Pittsburghers seemed to notice they had heard only one side of an incredibly complicated debate. Not one of the 12 questions from the audience expressed any skepticism about any part of the global warming sermon they had just heard.

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About The Author
Bill Steigerwald, born and raised in Pittsburgh, is a former L.A. Times copy editor and free-lancer who also worked as a docudrama researcher for CBS-TV in Hollywood before becoming a reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and a columnist Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Bill Steigerwald recently retired from daily newspaper journalism..
 
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Real Hope
While the earth remains,
Seed time and harvest
And Cold and Heat,
And Summer and Winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease,
Promised by Almighty God
Genesis 8:22

We NEED to go on the offensive
I've had it with the lies of Global Warming alarmism. At first it was amusing, then slightly annoying. Now it's intrusive, shrill, preposterous, gratingly self-righteous, and overall neurotic and destructive.

We need to move from defensive skepticism to outright indignant ACTIVE offense on this. Global Warming alarmism is by no means scientific, much less a consensus of scientific thought. It's permeated Washington DC's legislative process, public schools, film, TV, radio, and print news.

It's mass hysteria that's going to hurt us economically in a very significant way, and it's not based on any kind of fact. It's a hunch, and one that's being disproven more and more every day.

TIME TO GO ON THE OFFENSIVE. Write your congressman, talk to the local school boards, tell your friends. Are radicals the only ones that know how to protest anymore? STOP the GLOBAL WARMING LIES.

thank you, tip your waitress on the way out.

propaganda
So this "superstar journalist" puts herself forth as an expert on "climate change." So she's taken on an adventure vacation to all these exotic locales & told that what she's seeing is evidence of "global warming." And of course someone told her this was the "consensus" of the "scientific community." She cites all the already-discredited arguments again as if they were fresh & new. Corollary to the Big Lie Principle: Never admit your points have been shot down, just keep repeating them anyway.

Ms. Kolbert claims we have to cut emissions by 60 to 80% just to "stabilize greenhouse gases." Where does she get that number? However, she's probably right; it would take that to affect the amount of harmless CO2, a naturally occuring gas, in the atmosphere. We could almost do that by basically nuking our economy. Save the planet by setting off the anti-climate-change neutron bomb: destroys economies but leaves bloated huge governments bigger than ever!

She says we might have to "make[] due (sic) with less." Yeah, right, I know you want your kids to grow up to live in a giant version of Haiti, & still emit "too much" CO2 while burning dung for heat. Meanwhile you yourself keep flying around in jets.

We'll never be able to actually cut emissions anywhere near 60%, & nothing will actually happen because of it. However, we WILL end up with a totalitarian bureaucracy taxing us & micromanaging what we can do & where & how we can live. And THAT's the REAL point of all this.

The proletarians will be allowed just enough energy not to freeze or to start rioting in the streets (& have to be zapped by the riot police with the microwave pain-rays to get them dispersed & back to work!) while the Al Gores & Liz Kolberts of the world shed croc tears over their "carbon footprints" as they live like royalty.

Bill
writes, "Not one of the 12 questions from the audience expressed any skepticism about any part of the global warming sermon they had just heard."

The sheep and the cattle have no skepticism about the slaughterhouse as they are being led through the door. A few get jittery from the strange noises or smells but, the vast majority go quite willingly to their slaughter.

Why No Tough Questions?
The only pseudoscience these alarmists have are computer models that are rigged to predict global warming. They do not predict future weather or temps accurately when real time data is fed into them. They are propaganda.

CO2 is 0.000385% of our atmosphere. ITS A TRACE GAS!!! The only thing it does is feed plants. It can't cause climate change.

It is time people like this get egged and shouted down in public. These people want to send us back to the stone age. They will destroy the whole world's economy for NOTHING!

That is the economies that are stupid enough to fall for this hysteria.

It's all about the money!
With record cold temps all over this planet lately, we know for a fact that global warming is a joke that can change in one winter.
Find out who is to gain the most from all this scare crap and you will have the truth of why it is pushed on the public so much. Money is the root of all evil. That's the truth!

I'm already prepared for Global Warming
I moved out of NYC so that I won't get my pants wet in 100 years when the water level is two feet higher. Also, I bought a nice t-shirt for warm days with that high tech breathable fabric. It's less sticky on those muggy AGW afternoons.

Other than that, as a metaphysical naturalistic secularist, I'm going to enjoy the spectacle as the blind watchmaker chooses new animals to survive under the new environmental conditions. Viva la difference! Viva Richard Dawkins! (until natures selects against him).

Also
I'm doing the least I can to reduce CO2 emissions. I stopped exercising, and have reduced the amount of CO2 I generate by 20%. Plus, with my reduced fitness, I'll be dead 20 years earlier, further reducing my carbon footprint. Never let it be said that GreenDay didn't do the absolute minimum he could in the effort to reduce AGW.

perspective
RA: Actually, CO2 concentration would be about 0.00385% or 0.0000385 fraction. But that's still pretty tiny. Plus its "greenhouse effect" is pretty weak.

The effect of methane is said to be about 10,000 x as great, & water vapor is also stronger. Methane is the major constituent of natural gas. It would be better, greenhouse-effect-wise, to BURN natural gas to CO2 than to allow it to leak into the atmosphere.

You can't control water vapor. There are huge open expanses of water exposed to the atmosphere, & we can't stop it from evaporating. The effect of water vapor probably far exceeds that of carbon dioxide.

The test of a scientific theory is that is explains whatever is otherwise explainable, perhpas even predicts phenomena that can be observed, & doesn't contradict other science, observations, math, or logic. What is the secret evidence for anthrogenic "climate change" that so convinces all these eminent scientists living on grants that we've never been told about? "Climate change" entails such a radical change for the worse in our freedom & std of living it demands proof before we just jump in blindly & "do something, anything."

There's probably as much need to take measures against invasions of orcs & dragons.

If the atmosphere were that fragile, how did it survive catstrophes like asteroid impacts, large volcanic explosions, near supernovae, & the like?

The Ivy Is Killing Grandma
It s the PLANTS that generate all of the CO2!!! Yes, at night, Grandma's ivy plant gives off the TOXIC GREENHOUSE GAS CO2!

At the same time, the ivy produces H2O vapor, which combines with the CO2 to become CARBONIC ACID! Carbonic acid is *known* to be toxic to teeth - that's why Grandma needs dentures.

By itself, the CO2 gas that Grandma inhales from that damned ivy plant increases her blood gas carbon dioxide level, which may cause HYPERCARBIA!

HYPERCARBIA IS KNOWN TO "CAUSE" DISTURBED SLEEP, CONFUSION, AND RESPIRATORY FAILURE!

So, the next time you visit Grandma, open her windows and pitch her ivy plant into the street. You are saving her life.

*A Public Service Announcement from The Green Granny Apostates*

Why we should do nothing
In fact, the journalist is too pessimistic. The world simply needs to cut down on fossil fuel (FF) use, since this is the only nett addition to the CO2 level. This seems like a clear enough goal, and has a few side benefits, but as a conservative I don't think the pleasure of taking the wind out of the terrorists' (and Saudi) sails is worth having to leave the Hummer in the garage and take the bus to work. Not driving the Hummer means the terrorists have won! Arghhhhhhhh!!!

Now that the case for AGW has been established with approximately the certainty that Armstrong walked on the Moon (i.e. still open to disputation by a diminishing number of recalcitrants like all the posters above), it is time for us conservatives to explain honestly and openly why we the people should not do anything about it. I'll start the ball rolling...

1. If we cut back, no guarantee anyone else will, and they'll benefit at our expense. [This is a good one, appeals to the common man's xenophobia and latent tribalism].

2. Warming and sunshine - bring it on! North Dakota can be California! [Very appealing, like motherhood and apple pie, just don't let on that California will become Sahara, because it really won't.]

3. Do you really want to pay $5/gal just to save some funny foreigners/polar bears from getting flooded? [The old classic appeal to the hip-pocket. Works every time, particularly when the losers in the deal are far away and - shall we say - "non-caucasian" (or even non-human).]

Conservatives just know what they know
Religious conservatives have every reason to reject AGW or any version of global warming whatever. Why? Because the computer models and the research all involve the study of earlier climatic cycles, and religious folks know that none of those cycles every happened in the first place! I mean, glaciation, hot periods, and more just have to be the invention of those lying liberal scientists. And since most scientists are liberal, most scientists are liars. So don't worry.

Economic conservatives, especially if they've been fortified by their daily dose of Austrian economics, know that there just can't be any bad long-range problems because we'll find substitutes for whatever resources we consume. This faith can be bolstered by the standard libertarian argument that present generations ow nothing to future generations anyway. Some economist once 'proved' that, evidently...

Thickasabrick comes pretty close to the practical view many conservatives must have on this issue. There's no point making ourselves uncomfortable by sacrificing anything, since it will benefit all those foreigners and polar bears anyway.

Putting the Bull in Gore-Bull Warming
Ya gotta admit: God has a sense of humor.

Just when the Lefties thought they could get away with telling us the world was heating up, it seems that the last couple of years were the coolest in recent history.

But if you are waiting for the Lefties to say they were wrong, don't hold your breath.

They intend to milk this ruse for all that it is worth. They have spent too much money and energy on propagating this propaganda to give up now.

They know that people are stupid enough to swallow any kind of BS if ladeled into their throats the right way.

Gestell
"Thickasabrick comes pretty close to the practical view many conservatives must have on this issue. There's no point making ourselves uncomfortable by sacrificing anything, since it will benefit all those foreigners and polar bears anyway."

I can't speak on behalf of all conservatives, but I'd say there's no point making ourselves uncomfortable by sacrificing anything because man-made global warming is a crock of s$#t.

Oh wise DTOM...
I prostrate myself before your Nobel prize in physics, but...

>>>> RA: Actually, CO2 concentration would be about 0.00385% or 0.0000385 fraction. But that's still pretty tiny. Plus its "greenhouse effect" is pretty weak.

Yeah - methanol in your bloodstream is about 0.001% after an aspartame-laden softie, and its intoxicating effect is pretty weak. Kinda argues for drinking more meths, doesn't it?

>>> The effect of methane is said to be about 10,000 x as great, & water vapor is also stronger. Methane is the major constituent of natural gas. It would be better, greenhouse-effect-wise, to BURN natural gas to CO2 than to allow it to leak into the atmosphere.

Well, dang, I didn't know I had to actually *burn* that gas coming out of the water heater. No wonder I keep getting cold showers! And the smell!

>>> You can't control water vapor. There are huge open expanses of water exposed to the atmosphere, & we can't stop it from evaporating. The effect of water vapor probably far exceeds that of carbon dioxide.

But master, does it not rain? Pray tell where does the CO2 precipitate? - I need some dry ice to keep my beer cold.

>>> The test of a scientific theory is that is explains whatever is otherwise explainable [cut]

You lost me there, guru. You're not George Bush by any chance?

>>> If the atmosphere were that fragile, how did it survive catstrophes like asteroid impacts, large volcanic explosions,

I think it took it out on the dinosaurs, which made it feel much much better.

>>> near supernovae, & the like?

Yup, those neutrinos really wopped them O2s and N2s good and proper. Amazing the planet actually held together, really.

Oh wise DTOM...
I prostrate myself before your Nobel prize in physics, but...

>>>> RA: Actually, CO2 concentration would be about 0.00385% or 0.0000385 fraction. But that's still pretty tiny. Plus its "greenhouse effect" is pretty weak.

Yeah - methanol in your bloodstream is about 0.001% after an aspartame-laden softie, and its intoxicating effect is pretty weak. Kinda argues for drinking more meths, doesn't it?

>>> The effect of methane is said to be about 10,000 x as great, & water vapor is also stronger. Methane is the major constituent of natural gas. It would be better, greenhouse-effect-wise, to BURN natural gas to CO2 than to allow it to leak into the atmosphere.

Well, darn, I didn't know I had to actually *burn* that gas coming out of the water heater. No wonder I keep getting cold showers! And the smell!

>>> You can't control water vapor. There are huge open expanses of water exposed to the atmosphere, & we can't stop it from evaporating. The effect of water vapor probably far exceeds that of carbon dioxide.

But master, does it not rain? Pray tell where does the CO2 precipitate? - I need some dry ice to keep my beer cold.


Apologies
for the double post. Flakey computers!

Gestell,
thanks for the ideas...

4. Armageddon will intervene before we melt from AGW, so bring it on! [Appeals to bible th... -uh- people of faith. I was contemplating "Global warming, schmobal warming, Yahweh commeth", but that didn't sound appropriate for the target audience].

5. Let our grandchildren, free enterprise and good ol' yankee ingenuity deal with it. [Gives the "me" generation a nice warm glow of pride in the next generation's accomplishments.]

All we need now are snappy slogans...

expelled the movie
Anyone seen the promo for this movie? I just posted this on another column. I'm excited. Ben Stein narrates the promo.

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/playground.php

Global Warming Preventable
Do any of the GW advocates comprehend that the bulk of the increased CO2 they fear is coming from PLANTS?

During the period cited by the GW crowd, the Earth's population has expanded dramatically. These people have spread over many areas, including into deserts and other arid regions with little native vegetation.

People grow plants to feed people. People grow plants to feed animals, which are eaten by the people. People irrigate the plants to sustain them. Some plants tend to colonize other areas, too, away from civilization.

Each night during their growth cycle, plants put into the atmosphere both greenhouse gases CO2 and water vapor. Atmospheric CO2 is known to fertilize plants, with higer concentrations encouraging plants to grow faster and larger and to live in drier climates.

Geologically recent solar activity increased the Earth's surface temperature slightly, also mildly stimulating plant growth.

The bulk of the warming comes from solar activity. The difference in the order of magnitude between human contributions to heating and solar contributions can be similar to comparing the mass of a virus with that of a blue whale. There isn't much we can do to stop that.

The way to stop the manmade impact of global warming is to stop growing all these plants! Get rid of lawns. Stop crop irrigation. Halt ethanol and biodiesel production. Cease growing plants for human and animal consumption. Allow deserts to regain their rightful regions.

If we want to return CO2 to 1950 levels, then we ought to reduce the human population to 1950 levels, and allow famine to cull the herd, here and abroad. No pets. There will be less animals to cultivate, less crops to pollute the world with fertilizers and CO2, and fewer vehicles buring fuel. We would need less energy overall.

The Earth will still warm, as induced by solar activity, but the remaining human can feel good that their virus didn't bruise the great blue whale.

Mountain Rose writes:
Thursday, March, 13, 2008 6:52 PM
Putting the Bull in Gore-Bull Warming
Ya gotta admit: God has a sense of humor.

"Just when the Lefties thought they could get away with telling us the world was heating up, it seems that the last couple of years were the coolest in recent history."

Ummmmmm. Except that you are wrong. The past years are the warmest in recent history. What is it about science that confuses you? Fox News much?

"Climatologists at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) in New York City have found that 2006 was the fifth warmest year in the past century. "

"Climatologists at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) at Columbia University have found that 2007 tied with 1998 for Earth's second warmest year in a century."

And Ben Steins narration is haltingly slow and annoying, but I could stand to watch is he was pushing some other non-scientific theory. ID is a neato-nifty idea that you can have fun with while drinking, but it does not qualify as science. Pastafarias have just as much logic built into their belief system.

Gore-Bull... ha ha ha ha ha ha hahahahahahah. Zero points for originality.

Al Gore...
...is nothing more than the self-anointed High Priest of the new-age religion of AGW and the true President of the “Flat-Earth Society”.

He stands to live in luxury and wealth in his climate controlled mansions while he condemns the rest to the status of serfs and peasants, doomed to in third-world poverty in drafty, unheated hovels and having to live day-to-day on government hand outs he will graciously supply…

...if only we would all just bow down and worship him.

Back to Jonestown
If only we could put the GW fanatics on an island where they could not cause harm to anyone else. Their "solution" to an imaginary problem would cause more destruction, suffering, and death to the people of the earth than the imaginary crisis itself.

Extreme environmentalists are nuts, pure and simple, and anybody who listens to these deluded fanatics is an enabler in his or her own destruction.

Any day now I expect one of these GW freaks will urge us to start throwing virgins into a volcano to appease the GW gods.

I have some questions.....
For the gullible warming crowd.

If normal people/conservatives thought GW was real, don't you think they would address it since they are the only ones having kids?

Can anyone actually point me to actual footage of polar bears drowning?

If you can't find a weatherman who, with any high percentage, can predict the weather 3 days out, how can you believe a computer model 50 years out?

True or not, why would you want to show Gore's movie to kids and scare them, if for no other reason than indoctrination?

Moreso, if you show it to high schools, why would you not show The Great Global Warming swindel to give both sides and let kids (and adults) decide?

When did consensus become science?

Why won't Al Gore debate anyone in the scientific community who disagrees with him (Many)? I kid you not, Gore actually used the phrase (Balance as Bias)

Why would anyone remotely sane listen to any politician about a scientific issue?

Why are the benefits of the globe warming never discussed?

If in 1975 EVERY scientist said we were going to experience dangerous global cooling, why would you believe the opposite 30 years later when everyone was wrong the first time?

Have you ever considered the sun's effect?

And, if you knew the Earth was going to warm up another 1 degree over the next 100 years, how worried would you really be?

Please enlighten me.

Your “scientific concensus” is turning!
“Miklós Zágoni isn't just a physicist and environmental researcher. He is also a global warming activist and Hungary's most outspoken supporter of the Kyoto Protocol. Or was.”

http://www.dailytech.com/Researcher+Basic+Greenhouse+Equati ons+Totally+Wrong/article10973.htm

This guy found flaws in the equations that are used in most computer models that predict runaway global warming. He went from a GW activist to a “denier”! The article also highlights the amount of money involved in this scam.

For those that are able to understand (Gestell, thickasabrick, don’t bother) you can read the paper here:
http://met.hu/doc/idojaras/vol111001_01.pdf

And is supported, here:
http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf

This new model also accounts for the warming on Mars.

Dumb as an AlGore...
Gestell writes (in a stereotyping screed):

"Because the computer models and the research all involve the study of earlier climatic cycles, and religious folks know that none of those cycles every happened in the first place!"


Ok, let's grant that global warming happened before, like millions of years ago... before man existed. Your "scientific" (i.e. rigged) models prove that. Right? So, umm... ask a hard question: If mankind alone is the cause of GW, how the hell did it happen before mankind existed? What, did all 6.5 Billion of us funnel our greenhouse gases backwards in time through a wormhole or something? Or could it be part of the cycle of this "nature" you liberals worship?

The joy of being an "enlightened liberal" is that you get to be very, very stupid, yet pretend you are not.

Sheesh...

AGW is a religion
AGW is a religion:

It has its god(dess), "Gaia," or "Mommy Nature,"

It has its High Priest, "AlGore," the guy who jet-sets all around the world and offsets it all by buying "carbon offsets" from, er, himself.

It has its Priest-caste, "scientists," like James Hansen and Heidi Cullen who liken heretics to "holocaust deniers,"

It has its "original sin," in the form of your CO2 footprint.

It has "indulgences," in the form of "Carbon offsets," which rich, jetsetting, polluter celebrities buy to absolve their sin,

It has doctrine, "concensus and models" that cannot predict the weather this afternoon but somehow can predict the climate in 100 years (despite being wrong since 1895),

Soon they will have policy and taxation that will impose their religion on you. Coming soon near you, a breathing tax for emitting CO2 when you exhale.

Laugh if you want, but it will happen.

HYPOCRISY
Kolbert FLEW to Pittsburgh, to deliver her lecture to a roomful of like-minded fearmongers, all of whom DROVE THERE!
HELLO!

Driving and flying to a global warming fearmonger lecture is like porking out every three hours to lose weight.

Take Al Gore and the 10,000 hypocrites to Bali, Indonesia, please!

The demanded 50% cut in carbon dioxide emissions will plunge us into a worldwide depression, forever.

Religious Dogma
From the article I linked to above:

"Dr. Stephen Garner, with the NOAA's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory (GFDL), says such negative feedback effects are "not very plausible". Reto Ruedy of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies says greenhouse theory is "200 year old science" and doubts the possibility of dramatic changes to the basic theory."

And WE're the ones who refuse to admit scientific progress!! HaHAHAHAW!

Bill Steigerwald
You seem to gleam in making reports on nothing, about nothing and backed by nothing.
There are solutions to our enviromental issues and we need not be scientists to see them, only more intellegent than a rock.
Reducing our glutenous useage of fossile fuels would be one start, Another would be the old head in the sand denile of `There is plenty of oil to burn for ever'; Less dumping and newer pumping of wastes into retention ponds, to solidify and find a way to reuse the crap.
Another would require someone to think of new ways to propel people around.
Another would be to cast adrift all the ripoff CEO's and `Want to be Richest' supporters in a rusty, V Ship full of petrol and a coal fired boiler with a big bulls eye painted on its sides.
All of these would be a start in the right direction.

Butcher, you'd make a great
Communist.

"Another would require someone to think of new ways to propel people around."

I require you to invent a new machine for the State, that will propel people!!

"Another would be to cast adrift all the ripoff CEO's and `Want to be Richest' supporters in a rusty, V Ship full of petrol and a coal fired boiler with a big bulls eye painted on its sides."

If you get to be a filthy rich CEO by developing a new machine to propel people that redefines the auto industry and takes us away from an oil-based infrastructure, we will slaughter you like the capitalist pig that you are!!!

Want to see the other side
of this debate? Go to:

http://www.greatglobalwarmingswindle.com/

and

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_w arming_swindle/index.html

You liberal trolls might actually learn something if you keep an open mind. 'Fat Albert' Gore is a phony politician who is only interested in enriching himself. Phooey on all the AGW loonies.

Want to see the other side
of this debate? Go to:

http://www.greatglobalwarmingswindle.com/

and

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_w arming_swindle/index.html

You liberal trolls might actually learn something if you keep an open mind. 'Fat Albert' Gore is a phony politician who is only interested in enriching himself. Phooey on all the AGW loonies.

loonies
Its 60 degrees out but I think I'll start a big fire in the wood stove

One swallow does not a summer make
Redhead writes:

>>>> This guy found flaws in the equations that are used in most computer models that predict runaway global warming. He went from a GW activist to a “denier”! The article also highlights the amount of money involved in this scam.

As I have tried (obviously, in vain) to explain, one scientist finding problems with the accepted theory does not invalidate the theory.

Indirectly, it also bolsters my position that scientists are basically interested in the truth; not so much as from where the next grant comes. The fact that this guy changed his convictions based on what he saw as the evidence, speaks well for the intellectual honesty of scientists. Whether the evidence is right or wrong will take some time to determine.

>>>> For those that are able to understand (Gestell, thickasabrick, don’t bother) you can read the paper here: [omitted]

Redhead, since you seem to be an expert on climate modeling and 2nd order terms in partial differential equations, how about you explain your understanding of the physics and math to us dumb physics and applied math graduates? I'll be waiting right here.

If the "improved" theory is really any good, then (in spite of your belief that the majority of scientists are in some massive leftist taxpayer-bilking scheme and not at all interested in the truth) you will see the majority of scientists swing over to your side.

Unlike the majority of posters on this topic, I have no ideological ax to grind, and will be only too happy to swing my vote if justified.

Relic, indeed
Sgt Relic writes: Friday, March, 14, 2008 7:44 AM
"I suppose we are talking about the same NASA. Do you mean the one with this on their website:

According to the new data published by NASA, 1998 is no longer the hottest year ever. 1934 is."

Yes. Yes!!! OK, so you ARE reading and understanding. Great, now that you know something, anything about what is going on, you realize that since the last 10 years have been without a doubt the highest temperature recordings of any decade (and one small disclaimer that 1934 may have been one year in the past that is higher) then YES!!!

Science is something so foreign to today's Con that there is this simple problem that if you sent those who believe GW is happing to an island (as one poster thinks should be done) that you end up with a few thousand deniers and about 100 scientists.

You believe the small percentage of coerced military and intelligence reports that Saddam had something to do with 9-11, and yet you cannot fathom such a consensus on GW.

How does this happen? Since when does group-think become so pervasive that 1% of scientists with opinions on this matter "prove" you are even in the same ballpark. I bet that you believe ID should be taught in a science class? That Adam rode a dinosaur? That the great flood really happened? That the Earth is not warming?

Geeeze. Maybe the few thousand should move to some religious, non-science, war-mongering island and do your own thing.

SteveDowns
Seen it. It's pretty much a rehash of the arguments that have gone around the web for years.

Look up "The Scam of the Great Global Warming Swindle" by Chris Merchant of the University of Edinburgh for a rebuttal. It's on video.google.

and,

http://www.noc.soton.ac.uk/nocs/news.php?action=display_new s&idx=351 (from the National Oceanography Centre, Southampton)

help me out "in the majority"
I'll re-post these questions. I'm not sure where the war monger stuff applies and I think you are a little off on the 1 percent, at least as it pertains to actual climate experts. But, help me out on the following.

I have some questions.....
For the gullible warming crowd.

If normal people/conservatives thought GW was real, don't you think they would address it since they are the only ones having kids?

Can anyone actually point me to actual footage of polar bears drowning?

If you can't find a weatherman who, with any high percentage, can predict the weather 3 days out, how can you believe a computer model 50 years out?

True or not, why would you want to show Gore's movie to kids and scare them, if for no other reason than indoctrination?

Moreso, if you show it to high schools, why would you not show The Great Global Warming swindel to give both sides and let kids (and adults) decide?

When did consensus become science?

Why won't Al Gore debate anyone in the scientific community who disagrees with him (Many)? I kid you not, Gore actually used the phrase (Balance as Bias)

Why would anyone remotely sane listen to any politician about a scientific issue?

Why are the benefits of the globe warming never discussed?

If in 1975 EVERY scientist said we were going to experience dangerous global cooling, why would you believe the opposite 30 years later when everyone was wrong the first time?

Have you ever considered the sun's effect?

And, if you knew the Earth was going to warm up another 1 degree over the next 100 years, how worried would you really be?

Please enlighten me.

I'll add one more, if GW is progressive (ha ha), why no more hurricane Katrina's? Weren't the majority of experts 100 percent wrong on the increase in hurricane activity?

Tim
" If mankind alone is the cause of GW, how the hell did it happen before mankind existed"

Due to natural cycles, as even the most rabid AGW believer (including Al Gore) will tell you. The assertion is not that natural forces don't exist, the assertion is that artificial factors are stronger now and in the near future.

Anyone Wonder
Why didn't Elizabeth Kolbert suggest setting off tons of nukes to send dust into the stratosphere to cause global dimming?

That is the only way to get out of this mess.

justplainthick
“As I have tried (obviously, in vain) to explain, one scientist finding problems with the accepted theory does not invalidate the theory.”
It does invalidate a “consensus.”

“Whether the evidence is right or wrong will take some time to determine.”
But we must change our policies and laws now??

“Redhead, since you seem to be an expert on climate modeling and 2nd order terms in partial differential equations, how about you explain your understanding of the physics and math to us dumb physics and applied math graduates? I'll be waiting right here.”

Well, thick, as an Electrical Engineer, I’m glad I won’t have to go through all that again for you.
On a separate note, if you are a physics and math grad, what did you think of Garrett Lisi’s “Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything?” I was pretty impressed with it, and really hope he’s got it right. It is a perfect example of the beauty that math and physics can have.

“If the "improved" theory is really any good, then you will see the majority of scientists swing over to your side.”

We’ll see. So why did he quite NASA? He says that they refused to release the results for "money." $5billion is enough to influence even the most hardened of scientists. In the end, we've all got to feed ourselves.

Redhead again,
>>>> “Whether the evidence is right or wrong will take some time to determine.”
But we must change our policies and laws now??

If the consensus is not significantly changed in a year from now, then maybe it is time to change sides? Or how long do you want - 10 years? If the theory is as flawed as you say, then surely 10 years is enough to discredit it?

To repeat what I said in a previous column, no I don't *necessarily* believe we should do anything. However, what should be done is to clearly enunciate why nothing should be done (economic collapse or whatever (not that I believe that)).

I can't help believing that any attempt to reduce fossil fuel use is a good thing, quite aside from the supposed impact on AGW.

>>>> On a separate note, if you are a physics and math grad, what did you think of Garrett Lisi’s “Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything?” I was pretty impressed with it, and really hope he’s got it right. It is a perfect example of the beauty that math and physics can have.

I looked at the wikipedia entry, but cannot pretend to understand the theory involved; appreciation of its aesthetic beauty will have to wait for my math skills to catch up. Thanks anyway for reinforcing my point about pundits cherry-picking research papers to "prove their point". Those who have no actual understanding of the details should not pontificate. So I hereby pledge to avoid commenting on particle physics :-)

>>>> We’ll see. So why did he quite NASA? He says that they refused to release the results for "money." $5billion is enough to influence even the most hardened of scientists. In the end, we've all got to feed ourselves.

Cynicism aside, the truth gets out. I believe that the majority of people like us, scientists and engineers, have principles which are beyond the reach of moneyed interests.

Questions for AGW believers
What is the optimal temperature for the earth?

Is killing 80% of the population of the earth an acceptable solution? I mean at least we would be doing something about the problem.

Which kind of people are more likely to be concerned about environmental problems, rich or poor?

How to people/ nations gain wealth?

Do scientists ever have prejudice or are they ever influenced by ideologies to give more or less weight to certain types of evidence?

Why do AGW believers rarely deal with scientific specifics in public?

Are we peons just too stupid to understand all the big words?

Why are you so certain you are smarter and more objective than me?

How often have you examined your own prejudices? Do you realize that you have some?

Questions
IF AGW is warming Earth, why is Mars also warming?

If Owlgore is so concerned, why is he likely the single biggest contributor to the "problem"?

If AGW is real, why are China and India, with the two largest populations on Earth, exempt?

Thoughts
I'm growing a little weary of the stereotype that conservatives are anti-science. I have two degrees in meteorology, and am a conservative. Many scientists and engineers I know are also conservative (not professors, of course).

Another theme I keep seeing is that there is a "majority" or even a "consensus" about this. First, that's not even true. But assuming it is, if every scientist in the world except Copernicus said the sun revolved around the earth, and Copernicus said the opposite, he was still right. If there was worldwide agreement (which at one time there was) that the earth was flat, the agreement doesn't mean anything in the face of the facts.

inthemajority
You certainly are! in the majority, that is.

The majority of the people in the United States are deeply involved with pop culture, sports and the "daily grind". The average person hasn't a clue about basic scientific principles and wouldn't be able to distinguish the first law of thermodynamics from the law of the sea.

I will agree that you are in the majority.

If you think that all scientists are absolutely objective, you are very naive indeed. They are very human and have their biases like everyone else. I have worked closely with a couple of top scientists who could barely agree with each other on the time of day! Both were, in fact, brilliant but not willing to give each other credit.

I don't approach the AGW theory from either a religious or political point of view. In science, what is, simply is, and we should learn to govern ourselves accordingly.

We should conserve natural rescources because it is the prudent thing to do. We should stop polluting our environment in our own selfish best interest. BUT those simple facts do not validate the AGW theory! It is correct or it is not based simply upon physics, not ideology.

Consensus in science is absolutely meaningless. One person with one solid fact can overturn any consensus. That is the history of science.

That climate is always changing is undeniable. Why it is, is another matter, but we do know some of the reasons and certainly solar activity is at the top of the list. How else can you explain why global temperature has NOT increased over the past nine years even though CO2 has increased by 5% during that time. How else do you explain the fact that this past year has witnessed the sharpest DROP in global temperature in modern history or the fact that Antarctic sea ice is at a 30 year maximum?

The FACT is that CO2 comprises much less than ten percent of the total greenhouse effect and man made CO2 only a small part of that.

thick
“To repeat what I said in a previous column, no I don't *necessarily* believe we should do anything. However, what should be done is to clearly enunciate why nothing should be done (economic collapse or whatever (not that I believe that)).”

So the political class should act on something, and it is then up to the people to refute it? As a conservative, I believe the politicians should first do nothing, then act if there is shown to be a problem that can only be solved by a political solution. Not the other way around. The government is not a good place for solutions, only politics. “First, do no harm.”

“I can't help believing that any attempt to reduce fossil fuel use is a good thing, quite aside from the supposed impact on AGW.”

I doubt you’d find any real objection to this, on TH or elsewhere. What we (as conservatives) object to is government interference and force, especially when it is based on science that is still changing.

“Cynicism aside, the truth gets out. I believe that the majority of people like us, scientists and engineers, have principles which are beyond the reach of moneyed interests.”

Eventually, perhaps. I’ve sat on engineering committees and boards, and seen the goings on there. It’s sad, and I would hardly have believed it myself, but even these, among people who should know better, often degenerate into political maneuverings of who gets what, whether it’s just credit for the application, or power, or funding for the next step.

Wally
Well stated!

thickasabrick
>>> "I believe that the majority of people like us, scientists and engineers, have principles which are beyond the reach of moneyed interests.">>>

Do you really think so? Are they also beyond the reach of their own pre-conceived notions? Are they ready and willing to accept an idea that contradicts what they have been preaching?

In my experience, they will resist it until it becomes an embarrassment!

Do you think that either James Hansen (NASA) OR Roy Spencer (Univ. of Alabama) are stupid? THEY ARE NOT yet they totally disagree on AGW. AT LEAST, ONE OF THEM IS WRONG!

wally
I guess you have to adjust your argument.

warmest complete decade -- 1990s.

Twelve of the thirteen warmest years in the series have now occurred in the past thirteen years (1995-2007).

2000s is 0.21°C warmer than the 1900s.

Antarctic sea ice is NOT at a maximum. There is an area that is thicker (Fox News is good at spreading that kind of stat) but the overall ice is less.

You arguments about the "majority" are laughable. In the minority and lack of science is a joke we have all had to deal with in the past seven years.

Inconvenient Truths
aka "What they never mention on CNN":

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1350746/posts

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=11548

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji9.html

http://www.aim.org/publications/aim_report/2002/15.html


Majority
Again, neither a "majority" nor a "consensus" in science overrides a fact.

Supposing all you say is true, who gets the job of telling China they must cease developing?

What is the optimal temperature for the earth again? I must have missed that lecture.

Redhead again,
>>>> “Cynicism aside, the truth gets out. I believe that the majority of people like us, scientists and engineers, have principles which are beyond the reach of moneyed interests.”

>>>> Eventually, perhaps. I’ve sat on engineering committees and boards, and seen the goings on there. It’s sad, and I would hardly have believed it myself, but even these, among people who should know better, often degenerate into political maneuverings of who gets what, whether it’s just credit for the application, or power, or funding for the next step.

That may well be true, but (forgive me for having a pinch of optimism about human nature) when it comes down to arguing technical facts, then the truth gets out. What you are talking about is political, nothing to do with the facts.

You start with the word "eventually". That's good. Shows you trust that the truth gets known; the only argument is how far "eventually" is from now.


thick
"You start with the word "eventually". That's good. Shows you trust that the truth gets known; the only argument is how far "eventually" is from now."

The only other argument is whether the political class should act on something that is not yet known!


Again, on a separate note. I would suggest you read the full Lisi paper. Even if you don't fully understand particle physics (and few do) or the math (much was over my head) it is a real example of how beautiful a theory can be. It shines though the paper, so that it can almost be felt, even without a full understanding. Lisi's paper is also full of "not yet understood"'s and "should be investigated"'s that are lacking in many of the GW papers. It shows a real difference in the composition between real science and policalized science.

thickasabrick
what a great nick-virtually typecasting !!
it does explain everything about you--oh and shove ad-hominem

Redhead,
I think it might be a bit unfair to compare the ultimate "hard science" (physics) with something like climatology, which has to deal with far more variables and approximate modeling. Not only that, but climatology would be completely apolitical if it had no affect on public policy. Physics is blessed with almost infinite removal from daily affairs. The same cannot be said for biology (which insults many by casting aspersions on their distant ancestors) and climatology (which threatens to take some of the toys from the boys).

>>>> The only other argument is whether the political class should act on something that is not yet known!

Clearly, the answer is negative, since that would be irrational. However, the whole point of my argument is that we do in fact know something, even if not proved beyond a shadow of doubt. Thus, it behooves the leaders not necessarily to "do something" but at least to explain why nothing should be done in spite of the facts.

JR
"If normal people/conservatives thought GW was real, don't you think they would address it since they are the only ones having kids?"

It's hard to know where to start with this one. Your definition of "normal" seems to exclude the National Academy of Sciences, the National Geographic Society, and the Vatican. More importantly, your assertion that conservatives don't think GW is real is false. A majority of conservatives (they're not liberals) have nominated a presidential candidate who believes GW is real. Finally, having fewer kids is a logical response to addressing GW. It also makes sense in terms of Peak Oil depletion of fresh water and ocean fisheries.

"Can anyone actually point me to actual footage of polar bears drowning?"

No, but their bodies have been found.

"If you can't find a weatherman who, with any high percentage, can predict the weather 3 days out, how can you believe a computer model 50 years out?"

Weather reports are actually quite accurate for 3 days. Computer models are used for transportation, economics, and who knows how many other fields. Contrary to Redhead's link, climate models have understated the increase GW.

"True or not, why would you want to show Gore's movie to kids and scare them, if for no other reason than indoctrination? Moreso, if you show it to high schools, why would you not show The Great Global Warming swindel to give both sides and let kids (and adults) decide?"

GW is a global problem that needs global effort to reverse. If a video of equal caliber with a different view is created, people will watch it.

"When did consensus become science?"

How has the developement of GW theory differed from any other scientific theory? The difference is that this one cuts right at the heart of conservative ideology.

JR cont'd
"Why won't Al Gore debate anyone in the scientific community who disagrees with him (Many)? I kid you not, Gore actually used the phrase (Balance as Bias)"

I didn't know that he won't and you'd have to ask him.

"Why would anyone remotely sane listen to any politician about a scientific issue?"

Conservatives took Bill Frist's assessment of a grainy video of Terry Schiavo as if it came from God himself.

"Why are the benefits of the globe warming never discussed?"

Actually, the World Health Organization quantified the positive impacts of GW but still found a net loss of 77,000 lives/yr from GW effects.

"If in 1975 EVERY scientist said we were going to experience dangerous global cooling, why would you believe the opposite 30 years later when everyone was wrong the first time?'

But they didn't. The global cooling discussion consisted of one small wave of articles. GW has been studied now for years.

"Have you ever considered the sun's effect?"

Anyone who's done even a little bit of research knows GW scientists have. Solar effects explain cyclic GW over time, but the speed and timing of this period point to human creation of CO2.

"And, if you knew the Earth was going to warm up another 1 degree over the next 100 years, how worried would you really be? Please enlighten me."

I rely on climate experts and I understand the increased temperature is greater than one degree.

"I'll add one more, if GW is progressive (ha ha), why no more hurricane Katrina's? Weren't the majority of experts 100 percent wrong on the increase in hurricane activity?"

Actually, they were right. Anyone paying any attention last fall read that hurricanes devastated Central America.

Cool news
The average temperature across both the contiguous U.S. and the globe during climatological winter (December 2007-February 2008) was the coolest since 2001, according to scientists at NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C. In terms of winter precipitation, Pacific storms, bringing heavy precipitation to large parts of the West, produced high snowpack that will provide welcome runoff this spring.

In the contiguous United States, the average winter temperature was 33.2°F (0.6°C), which was 0.2°F (0.1°C) above the 20th century average – yet still ranks as the coolest since 2001. It was the 54th coolest winter since national records began in 1895.

Winter temperatures were warmer than average from Texas to the Southeast and along the Eastern Seaboard, while cooler-than-average temperatures stretched from much of the upper Midwest to the West Coast.

With higher-than-average temperatures in the Northeast and South, the contiguous U.S. winter temperature-related energy demand was approximately 1.7 percent lower than average, based on NOAA’s Residential Energy Demand Temperature Index.

AZPhil,
>>>> In the contiguous United States, the average winter temperature was 33.2°F (0.6°C), which was 0.2°F (0.1°C) above the 20th century average – yet still ranks as the coolest since 2001. It was the 54th coolest winter since national records began in 1895.

Phil, this seems to be evidence in favor of warming.

1. It's not all that unlikely to be "the coolest winter since 2001". In fact, what you are saying is the other 5 years were in fact *warmer* than the admitted 0.1 deg C above the 20th century average. 5-in-a-row above average tells you something, doesn't it? Come back to me when we get 5-in-a-row cooler than average.

2. Being the 54th coolest winter (out of the 110 odd winters since 1895) puts it roughly at the median. Not spectacularly cold, I would say...

It seems that only an ideologically blinded zealot would interpret these figures to be in *support* of his presupposed "fact".

Brick
AGW is a religion now. No matter what happens, it supports their theory. Cold winter, warm winter, more or fewer hurricanes, icepack growing or melting - these ALL support AGW. I may be just envious of these guys because they are always right.

But suppose they really are right, and AGW will increase temps, the questions I asked you (and others) above remain unanswered:

What is the optimal temperature for the earth?

If AGW is warming Earth, why is Mars also warming?

If Owlgore is so concerned, why is he likely the single biggest contributor to the "problem"?

If AGW is real, and the Kyoto Treaty is vital, why are China and India, with the two largest populations on Earth, exempt from it?

inthemajority, NO I DON'T!
"I guess you have to adjust your argument"

What I said was that there has not been a global temperature increase over the past nine years while CO2 has increased by 5% over the same period. Had the temperature increased 5% over the same period in a one to one relationship, the temperature would have increased from a mean temp. of about 281 deg.K to 295 deg. K, a change of 14 deg. C (25.2 F)! Not only did it not do that, it actually decreased between 1999 and 2002 about .05 deg. C. There was no net increase over the nine year period, just as I stated. Furthermore, the whole idea of "global temperature" is rather meaningless. The "Globe" consists of a huge number of components which one cannot just add up and average and there is the added problem of accuracy. Some of the measuring stations have had the environment around them changed by such things as parking lots, buildings with air conditioning and other various and sundry things that skew the result.

BTW I didn't get ANY of my data from Fox news. That just shows your ideological bias.

Regarding Antarctic sea ice... How about NASA?

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20020820southseaice.html

YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS LAUGHABLE!

also AZ...
It would be more convincing if GW critics stuck with one line of reasoning.

First it's: GW isn't happening.

Then it's: GW is happening but it's all natural.

Occasionally it's: GW is happening and conservatives are doing a better job at fighting it.

The column argued: We can't fight it anyway, so why bother?

Now we're back to: It's not happening.

Cam
"It would be more convincing if GW critics stuck with one line of reasoning."

What makes you think that all AGW critics are one person?

DUH!

Cam
Plus 30 years ago, the next ice age was imminent...an idea believed by some of the same people who believe in AGW now. Hey, whatever gets you grant money, I guess.

I've never really heard them say what to do about volcanoes, either. Should we throw millions of bags of concrete down them, or sacrifice a few virgins? Or I guess we could make them go off (volcano seeding if you will) since the increased pollution cools the earth by lowering the incoming solar radiation.

Cam
I can't speak for others, but I basically do stick to one line of reasoning: The models are inferior approximations of a vastly complex system. Even the most ardent AGW proponent admits the models are approximations. As recently as ten years ago, when some models tried to account for all the carbon that should be in the oceans, they were off by 50%!! Good think they weren't running a bank, I guess.

AZ
"No matter what happens, it supports their theory. Cold winter, warm winter, more or fewer hurricanes, icepack growing or melting - these ALL support AGW."

No. No scientist has ever claimed we'll see a straight line increase in temperature from now on. No one points to cold weather as evidence of global warming.

"What is the optimal temperature for the earth?"

Given where we've built infrastructure, an increase in ocean levels will cause a lot of damage. While it may have mattered little what the temperature was over earth's history, it matters now.

"If AGW is warming Earth, why is Mars also warming?"

GW scientists attribute past periods of GW to fluctuations in solar output accelerated by CO2 creation. It appears that this period of GW has been triggered by CO2 creation. The warming of Mars is completely consistent with that view.

"If Owlgore is so concerned, why is he likely the single biggest contributor to the "problem"?"

Personalizing GW with Al Gore, diminishes your credibility. Yes, he was hypocritical to condemn GW while living in his huge inefficient home. I understand he's been able to change zoning ordinances and has installed solar panels to reduce his energy use.

"If AGW is real, and the Kyoto Treaty is vital, why are China and India, with the two largest populations on Earth, exempt from it?"

China and India need to get involved in fighting GW. We have no moral leverage with them if we haven't embraced Kyoto.

Phil,
>>>> AGW is a religion now. No matter what happens, it supports their theory. Cold winter, warm winter, more or fewer hurricanes, icepack growing or melting - these ALL support AGW. I may be just envious of these guys because they are always right.

Maybe in some of these points you are right, however no AGW scientist is saying that a cold winter is impossible, just less likely. Similarly, one glacier might grow larger, but that does not mean you should ignore all the others which are shrinking.

Most of the examples you cite are not in fact true, since there are not demonstrably "fewer hurricanes" or "expanding polar ice", at least not in a way that could not be explained as anomalous.

>>> But suppose they really are right, and AGW will increase temps, the questions I asked you (and others) above remain unanswered:
What is the optimal temperature for the earth?

As a conservative, I am surprised you should ask how far we should tweak the earth's thermostat. Conservatives generally like to retain the status quo. I think the serious answer is "as little removed from what we have now as possible".

>>>> If AGW is warming Earth, why is Mars also warming?

What happens on other planets is clearly unrelated to what happens here, owing to the vast differences in atmosphere, orbital parameters and so on. If Mars is warming, and that can be correlated with increased solar output, then that does not mean that the entire Earthly warming may be put down to the same effect.

>>>> If Owlgore is so concerned, why is he likely the single biggest contributor to the "problem"?

That's just a partisan position, and doesn't merit a serious answer.

(cont'd)

Phil (pt 2)
>>>> If AGW is real, and the Kyoto Treaty is vital, why are China and India, with the two largest populations on Earth, exempt from it?

This question is nothing to do with the fact (or otherwise) of AGW, but is a political question. If you can tolerate my opinion, then no I do not believe these countries should be given any special exemption. In the real world it may not be politically expedient to push those countries too far, but that does not absolve those who can patently afford to reduce their CO2 output from doing so (if that be the chosen path).

Cam
"Personalizing GW with Al Gore, diminishes your credibility. Yes, he was hypocritical to condemn GW while living in his huge inefficient home."

If anything, it diminishes his credibility to preach one thing and practice another. It also distracts people from the real issue.

"China and India need to get involved in fighting GW. We have no moral leverage with them if we haven't embraced Kyoto."

Fighting it how? If you haven't noticed, we have no leverage with China, moral or otherwise, regardless. Witness how much mind they pay us on human rights issues. Extrapolate that idea to AGW.

A SIMPLE FACT YOU CAN'T ESCAPE!
CO2 comprises only 380 PPM of our atmosphere. That is less than 5 tablespoons full in a 50 gallon drum and 4/5 of that is natural and inescapable!

Water vapor varies from nearly 0 (at the South Pole) to 4% (maritime tropical where it counts most). If you took an average of 2% for mid latitudes, that would be 256 tablespoons full in a 50 gal drum.

So, one part of human contributed CO2 vs 256 parts atmospheric H2O?

I'll just worry myself to death over that.

Water vapor is

Yammer All You Want
Watch what happens when people start loosing their jobs because we have stabbed the economy in the *ss to stop the warming. I'm not talking about a jump to 7 or 8 percent unemployment. What do you think will happen in America if the unemployment rate goes to 10 or 15 percent? And at the same time the programs that have killed the economy are having no effect on warming.

The only way to effectively cut carbon emmissions and not damage our economy is a massive program to build nuclear power plants. It will cost a lot to cut our emmissions significantly and we don't have the money.Politicians have p*ssed it away buying votes from people willing to be bribed with their own money.

Brick
"What happens on other planets is clearly unrelated to what happens here, owing to the vast differences in atmosphere, orbital parameters and so on. If Mars is warming, and that can be correlated with increased solar output, then that does not mean that the entire Earthly warming may be put down to the same effect."

Actually, all of the planets in one solar system are in fact related. You are right - maybe not the ENTIRE warming can be explained by the Sun growing hotter, but some of it can.

>>>>If Owlgore is so concerned, why is he likely the single biggest contributor to the "problem"?

"That's just a partisan position, and doesn't merit a serious answer."

Actually, it does. If you choose to set yourself up as the world's spokesman for an issue, living the exact opposite lifestyle you demand of others makes you look ridiculous. I mean, if Mick Jagger did anti-drug commercials, or Michael Moore endorsed Slim-Fast, they would not be taken seriously.

Now, when you couple that with the fact that he barely did anything for EIGHT YEARS while he was the 3rd-most powerful man on earth (behind Bill and Hillary), and then people who are skeptical of his motivation seem to be justified.

CamBrick
What are you willing to do to solve the problem of a 1-foot rise per century in sea level? This is a two-parter. First, what political measures do you support, then, what about your personal lifestyles?

thickasabrick
"In the real world it may not be politically expedient to push those countries too far, but that does not absolve those who can patently afford to reduce their CO2 output from doing so "

SO...

You have stopped driving and heating your home, RIGHT? Uh Huh, just like Algore has!

SIMPLE FACT, I accidently cut myself off
So, one part of human contributed CO2 vs 256 parts atmospheric H2O?

I'll just worry myself to death over that.

Water vapor is the 500 lb gorilla in the GW debate but ignored in some of the computer models because "that's the way we've always done it".

brick
>>>>If Owlgore is so concerned, why is he likely the single biggest contributor to the "problem"?

"That's just a partisan position, and doesn't merit a serious answer."

Not so! It is a question of credibility! If Algore ACTUALLY BELIEVED the doctrine he espouses I think he would do otherwise.

Wally
Not only water, but methane as well.

If you ask me, I don't see what's wrong with planting a lot more trees. Young trees. Those who defend old-growth forests forget to mention that the older trees don't really suck up much CO2, where the young trees do (sort of like an 80-year-old's dietary intake vs a teenager's).

I also notice there are never any benefits of AGW, even assuming it's true. None. No longer growing seasons, nope, just death, destruction, and famine everywhere. That is especially interesting in light of the fact that the earth has, in the past, been SIGNIFICANTLY wamer (and at other times colder) than it is now.

Cam continued
"China and India need to get involved in fighting GW. We have no moral leverage with them if we haven't embraced Kyoto."

This is sort of like saying (in 1980) that we needed to unilaterally disarm to have "moral leverage" with the Soviets. The USSR didn't understand moral leverage, and China doesn't care one iota what we think of their policies on human rights or trade, and certainly not on this issue either. We threatened to remove them from most favored nation status years ago, they laughed at us, and we did nothing. Well, we let them host the Olympics, but we did nothing negative.

Wally
You echoed my point. And I believe the same for (I assume) Republicans like Jimmy Swaggart. When you've lost all credibility, people won't listen to you even if you are right.

Phil,
>>>> >>>>If Owlgore is so concerned, why is he likely the single biggest contributor to the "problem"?

>>>> "That's just a partisan position, and doesn't merit a serious answer."

>>>> Actually, it does. If you choose to set yourself up as the world's spokesman for an issue, living the exact opposite lifestyle you demand of others makes you look ridiculous. I mean, if Mick Jagger did anti-drug commercials, or Michael Moore endorsed Slim-Fast, they would not be taken seriously.

Phil, this is called "ad-hominem" argument. I understand perfectly well that "do as I say, not as I do" is a bad way to win friends and influence people. Nevertheless, the truth of the message is unconnected with the personal habits of the messenger.

Analogy: how many people do you know who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus? Then how many of those actually follow all the teachings (be poor in spirit, love their enemies, turn the other cheek, etc.)? Not many, eh? But does that diminish the original message?

AZ
"What are you willing to do to solve the problem of a 1-foot rise per century in sea level? This is a two-parter. First, what political measures do you support, then, what about your personal lifestyles?"

Fair question, but I want to make it clear my statements below are in response to yor question because some will find them self-righteous. Much of my support for moving away from fossil fuels is based on personal experience with how easy it is. I installed a photovoltaic system that now covers 2/3 of my electricity needs (that motivated friends and neighbors who have systems covering 100%). I have a combination solar water heating/tankless heater system that reduced my water heating costs also by 2/3. I ride a bus and train to and from work everyday. I also have an EPA-approved wood burning fireplace that can heat my entire home. If AZ stands for Arizona, I'd highly recommend the solar equipment.

As far as political measures go, we first need to change land use policies. Development near transit stations need to be highrise, and highrise developments need to be near transit. We should also end the US's biggest entitlement program - cheap gas. Let gas taxes fully pay for the construction, maintenance, policing, and environmental costs of roadways.

TruLib - You may not be aware but companies in Silicon Valley are salivating over the opportunities presented by green energy. It gets old hearing your type bad mouth Yankee ingenuity.

Wally asks irrelevant question...

"SO... You have stopped driving and heating your home, RIGHT? Uh Huh, just like Algore has!"

What I (or even Al) do has nothing to do with the fact or otherwise of AGW.

But since you indirectly cast aspersions on my integrity, I give you a truthful answer: no, I have not stopped either of those activities, but yes I now save at least 4 gallons of gas a week by cycling to work instead of driving, and this winter we used 1/3 the normal amount of gas heating because my family and I found out that we could survive with the thermostat set to 70 or less.

Nobody is asking you to go "cold turkey" on these luxuries, but you are so committed to your ideology that you are terrified of the possibilities before they are even canvassed!

AZPhil
Thanks, and you're right, I should have mentioned CH4, also mostly natural and much more efficatious as a greenhouse gas than either CO2 OR H2O.

I just wanted to make the point that increasing global temperature through man-made CO2 emissions is simply not credible.

thick, you're right about one thing...
Well, not exactly ("wally asks irrelivent question")

I can assume that you are sincere, but you made the statement "but that does not absolve those who can patently afford to reduce their CO2 output" The fact that you have is an indication that you sincerely believe in AGW or are looking for ways to reduce high fuel bills, or both.

The fact that Algore flies around in private jets and uses the energy in his home of several "normal" families is a clear indication that he is either just incredibly selfish or that he doesn't believe what he tells everyone else, or both.

Regarding other nations: There is one Earth with one atmosphere. The argument that we should do all we can to reduce our carbon emissions whereas China or India shouldn't be pushed too hard makes as much sense as having a flat tire with three large holes and having the shop repair only one.

You are right about one thing: Either AGW is real or it is not, irrespective of the politics or who believes it or who does not.

Are you aware that several HUNDRED scientists have now come out publicly to say it is NOT. Takes some of the "consensus" wind out of the sails, doesn't it?

MORE CO2 is BETTER!
CO2 is NOT air pollution! It is absolutely essential to life on Earth; without it nothing grows. During the Jurrassic, our atmosphere had about ten times as much CO2 as it does now but had NO RUN-AWAY global warming.

I'm not suggesting that we re-create the Jurrassic, but it has been shown that a modest increase in CO2 (up to about 500 PPM)would considerably increase agricultural production. In fact, greenhouse owners routinely increase CO2 in their greenhouses to 1,000 PPM to increase growth rates.

Isn't it ironic that increasing levels of CO2 may actually save people from starvation?

Cam asks...
"What are you willing to do to solve the problem of a 1-foot rise per century in sea level?"

Well Cam, what are you willing to do about an invasion of little green men from outer space? The odds are about the same. If that does happen, you can bet that it will be as a result of solar output, not fossil fuels.

GET REAL!

HELLO........... anybody there?
Oh my! I feel SO alone...

Bye

wally
"Regarding Antarctic sea ice... How about NASA?

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20020820southseaice.html

YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS LAUGHABLE!"

Please read your own link. Maybe just part of the first paragraph will do for you. "While recent studies have shown that on the whole Arctic sea ice has decreased since the late 1970s... "

Why would you be so stupid as to reference a link that proves my point? If by MY entire argument you mean 99% of the scientists who have some say in the matter, then I guess you spend much of your day laughing at just about every thing we know regarding science.

Get to that creationist museum yet? Believe Saddam had WMD? I'm beginning to wonder if you believe in gravity, something we know so little about.

Tired of bring a knife to a gunfight? You can swing all you want, but you look rather silly.

wally
"Are you aware that several HUNDRED scientists have now come out publicly to say it is NOT. Takes some of the "consensus" wind out of the sails, doesn't it?"

From AFL-CIO: "According to government sources, the number of scientists increased from 150,000 to 2,685,000 between 1950 and 2001..."

Yippieeeeee! Now that you have reached an incredible 0.01%, I'm sure everybody has bought into your argument. ore importantly, the 0.01% is very representative of the percent of peer-reviewed scientists in relative fields regarding GW. Not all of your scientists are qualified to speak of GW, as not all of the 2,685,000 scientists.

Checking sails captain. Puffs of air being blown from offshore by 100 ExxonMobile employees not affecting us at all. Full speed ahead.

inthemajority(amongst liberals) writes:
“Checking sails captain. Puffs of air being blown from offshore by 100 ExxonMobile employees not affecting us at all. Full speed ahead.”

Straight from the Liberal Play Book… when you have no facts to support you, throw insults and attack integrity.

Capt Smith decided to ignore reality too and ran the Titanic full speed ahead.

…as for….


“From AFL-CIO: "According to government sources, the number of scientists increased from 150,000 to 2,685,000 between 1950 and 2001..."

Yippieeeeee! Now that you have reached an incredible 0.01%,…..”

…anyone with an elementary school education can see the logic flaw in your math equation.

D R
"…anyone with an elementary school education can see the logic flaw in your math equation."

Ummmm.
Several hundred (ad per wally) = 300. D'oh! I'm being generous
300 / 2,685,000 = 0.01% --> D'oh!

Do you have an education beyond elementary school? Where did you stumble, on the simple division or the percent?

inthemajority
Oh really?

Everyone knows that James Hansen of NASA is the primary proponent of AGW. Instead of relying on NASA's rationalizations, look at the admissions.

Ex: "Overall, the area of the Antarctic with trends indicating a lengthening of the sea ice season by at least one day per year was 5.6 million square kilometers (2.16 million square miles), about 60 percent the size of the United States. At the same time, the area with sea ice seasons shortening by at least one day per year was 3 million square kilometers (1.16 million square miles)."

It is typical of people like you that when you are losing an argument you resort to ad-hominum attacks about such non-sequiturs as creationism or flat Earth or some other such nonsense.

If I tell you that it snowed in Bagdad, Iraq this year for the first time will you also tell us that it was caused by global warming.

Re: Scientists who are not AGW cool-aid drinkers, actually there are thousands, several hundred of which just had a conference in NYC. You probably didn't hear that reported on NBC, CBS, ABC or Fox. You are going to be hearing a lot more because the tide is turning. AGW will go the way of Flat Earth theories.


Computer models are useful to predict...
But when that which was predicted does not conform to the model that predicted it, you can't blame reality. You have to look at the model.

A gentleman by the name of Steve McIntyre suspected an error in NASA's data and investigated. Typically, government scientists using taxpayer money to develop the GISS temperature data base at taxpayer expense refused to publicly release their temperature adjustment algorithms or software until they had to.

NASA now recognizes that the ten hottest years were (in order):
1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938, 1939 You will notice that five out of ten were BEFORE WWII and only four were later than 1990 (included) and only one after 1999!

While its too early to tell, it appears that this particular warming cycle may have peaked in the 1990's.

Inthemajority says: "Twelve of the thirteen warmest years in the series have now occurred in the past thirteen years (1995-2007)."

REALLY? Just what series would that be? 1992 to 2007?

wow how impressive.




Undeniable Facts
1. C02 increases FOLLOW warming, not the other way around. This fact alone puts the lie to the entire AGW scam.

2. Global warming, when it has happened in the past, HAS BEEN A GOOD THING.

3. Alternative energy production relies upon oil to make it happen. You cannot build a bicycle without the use of oil.

4. Solar panel production is highly toxic and produces a HUGE carbon footprint. People who promote the use of solar panels, specifically the noxious photovoltaic systems, should be jailed for destroying the planet.

5. Oil is in plentiful supply. It is a cheap, clean energy and ideal for transportation systems. Nuclear is ideal for home heating and for other electric needs where one can stay connected to the grid.

6. People who promote Al Gore's religion of AGW are either sheep or selling something.

gee wally
"NASA now recognizes that the ten hottest years were (in order)... "

Maybe if I were a Con and considered GLOBAL warming the same as US warming, then yea, you have a very valid point. Since the US represents about 6% of the land mass and less than 2% of the world, I think you would be better off talking to a crowd of like-minded non-readers like, well, TH.

NASA said no such thing. They said the above about the US, and since as we all know GW refers to the globe (hence the name) the world ranking have not changed.

Your arguments work on non-readers only. Get your facts straight before walking into an argument.

Pathetic. US = World? Only in the mind of a Con.

gee gee wally
Today's news:

"Scientists measuring the health of almost 30 glaciers around the world found that ice loss reached record levels in 2006, the U.N. agency said."

Well, there's always that chunk of Antarctica that is slightly thinker this year and Podunk Iowa that had a cold winter to help you with your lack of scientific thought.

inthemajority GEE YOU"RE BLIND!
You are entitled to yur own opinion but not to your own facts. The fact is that NASA has admitted the mistake and tried to put a happy face on it.

"Recently it was realized that the monthly more-or-less-automatic updates of our global
temperature analysis (http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/2001/Hansen_etal.html) had a flaw in
the U.S. data. In that (2001) update of the analysis method (originally published in our 1981
Science paper – http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/1981/Hansen_etal.html) we included
improvements that NOAA had made in station records in the U.S., their corrections being based
mainly on station-by-station information about station movement, change of time-of-day at
which max-min are recorded, etc."

The Goddard Institute claimed that the cause of the error was a switch to a new data-collection system in 2000. This led to an incorrect assumption that the old and new methods matched, which was proved to be untrue.

You can read the entire memo at: http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/distro_LightUpstairs_70810.p df

"None so blind as those who refuse to see" seems to describe you very well.

So, how do you propose that a small human addition a trace greenhouse gas (380 PPM) is more powerfull than water vapor and methane which combined constitute over 95% of the total greenhouse effect?

inthemajority Here's another FACT !
Historically, there have been warmer periods in the Earth’s history. The most recent warm period (known as “The Medieval Climate Optimum” or “Medieval Warm Period”) lasted from about 800 to 1,300 A.D. Crop yields were significantly enhanced. It is undeniable that crops were grown in Greenland that cannot be grown there today or that tree lines in northern Europe and Asia moved significantly northward. . http://worldclimate report.com/index/2006/05/25/more- evidence-of-arctic-warmth-a-long-time-ago/

inthemajority Here's another FACT !
The Earth has been generally warming for the past three hundred years. There is no argument about the fact that the Earth has gone through “Ice Ages”. By definition, we are now in a warm period or “interglacial”. It didn’t start with the industrial revolution. What ended the last ice age? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

And another FACT:

There is a connection between global warming and CO2, but geological evidence indicates that the CO2 increases came after the warming rather than preceding it. That being so, CO2 could hardly be the cause of global warming, but temperature definitely affects CO2 levels. Also, there are discrepancies between results from ice cores from different locations, and questions regarding methodologies. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZDg5ZGU0MTFjY2E2ZWIzM mFmMjU4MzIyZDRiZTM3ZDE=

And another FACT
Satellite acquired data on temperature increases is lower than the ground based computer models that predict warming. Ground based stations can be influenced by the “urban heat island” effect. . Cities are very good traps for sensable heat. Summertime temperatures are higher downtown than a few miles away in agricultural areas. As buildings and highways encroach upon weather station locations (usually at airports), summertime recorded temperature averages increase, but do not give an accurate overall picture. Paradoxically, forests and farmland actually collect more energy than bare ground or concrete, but a lot of that energy is collected as latent heat (through transpiration) and chemical potential energy (through photosynthesis). http://www.globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=636

And another FACT
The faster plants grow, the faster they remove CO2 from the air, so, it tends to be self-limiting. Greenhouse owners know that their plants grow 40% faster if they raise the CO2 level in the greenhouse from the 360 PPMv ambient, to 1,000 PPMv (still only 1/10 of one percent of the air in the greenhouse). The lush vegetative growth required to form the vast coal deposits we have now, occurred during an early warm period, when vegetation grew very fast indeed! A high CO2 level was, no doubt, one of the reasons for that rapid growth. http://www.o2waterclean.com/Jurassic.htm http://www.planetnatural.com/site/xdpy/sgc/Indoor%20Garden %20Supply/CO2%20Systems

And still another FACT!
The atmosphere originally contained a thousand times as much CO2 as it does now. Over the years, it has gone into carbonates and fossil fuels. During the Jurassic, there was still ten times as much CO2 as we have now, and the atmosphere had twice the mass we have now! Did the Earth burn up? http://www.o2waterclean.com/Jurassic.htm pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1692169

Here's a question for you: What did you name your seeing-eye dog?

wally world
"Here's a question for you: What did you name your seeing-eye dog?"

Wally

wally
Just because I can quote 1,000 facts for every one of your facts does not make me 1,000 more correct... or does it? If I have to answer your "facts", do you then have to answer every one of mine?

None of your "facts" speak of the problem. Throwing Google-searched "facts" around elevates you to MS thought process. Someday, when you graduate HS (better yet, one of them Facts-have-a-liberal-bias colleges) we can revisit this topic. Until then, good luck with your copy/paste routine.

Wally is wagging his tail in agreement.

inthemajority,
Re: "cut and paste"

Indeed it is, and from my own research WHICH YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY UNABLE TO ANSWER.

Every one of those facts Do speak to the supposed problem "problem".

If there is a problem, and I'm not saying there isn't, it is a problem of nature, not SUV's, cow farts or hair spray.

If I didn't graduate from H.S before you were born, you must be mentally retarded. GET A LIFE!

inthemajority,
"Wally is wagging his tail in agreement"

Wally is trying to lead the blind, as seeing eye dogs are want to do.

Sometimes the blind are beyond help.

So here's another one for inthemajority.
YES, IT IS ALSO FROM MY PAPER. which is why there are no quote marks or attribution. The link is so that you may more easily shoot me down, or maybe learn something yourself.

The “greenhouse effect” is not a bad thing, it is one of the things that make our world habitable by smoothing out temperature variations. Without the “greenhouse effect”, there would probably be no liquid water; it would be locked up in ice, as the Earth’s temperature would be about 260 K (-13 deg. C). http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=greenhouse%20effe ct

Furthermore, during periods of warming, the effects are much more pronounced at high lattitides, where it is generally welcome and are minimal in the mid lattitudes.

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