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Wednesday, June 17, 2009
Bill Murchison :: Townhall.com Columnist
Democratic 'Brain Surgery'
by Bill Murchison
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


It's only money, we like to say, when we know we shouldn't be pulling out our wallets,but …

The 'but' is a big one when it comes to health care reform: huge, immense, Himalayan. So big we're not going to do it, I'll bet you money. Not this year we're not, because we've barely started to think this thing through. We're not ready as a country, as a people, to have President Obama and his congressional minions shove down our throats a new, costly, coercive plan for reordering the way we care of ourselves, or for that matter don't care.

The Democratic-controlled Congressional Budget Office -- no aerie of Reaganite stool pigeons -- says health care reform a la Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd (the Affordable Health Choices Act) would leave more than twice as many Americans uninsured as it would protect, sort of -- 36 million to 16 million, respectively. The CBO says, further, the bill would increase federal budget deficits by $1 trillion between 2010 and 2019.

The so-called "public option" that is central to the Kennedy-Dodd design is supposed to keep the private insurance companies honest. The taxpayers would subsidize the public option, making it seem -- like any subsidized government program -- the way for many to go.

The CBO calculates that 15 million Americans would exit their private plans if Kennedy-Dodd were imposed. Coverage from other sources would fall by 8 million, the CBO says.

This is progress? Large numbers of Americans may be forgiven, perhaps, if they differ on that trivial point.

On Monday, the President assured the American Medical Association that "If we fail to act, premiums will climb higher, benefits will erode further, the rolls of the uninsured will swell to involve millions more Americans …"

The President's admirers, especially in the media, consider him some speechmaker. He is reasonably good, by post-Reagan standards. If only his speeches had content as well as cadence! The content-less speech, which you can't remember when it's over except that it sure sounded good, is the Barack Obama specialty. Audiences eat it up with spoons. He promises change, promises unity, promises transformation. It sounds so good you want to march.

March where? That's the eternal question with Obama. You won't find him, I venture, trying to shoot down in public the Congressional Budget Office's arithmetic -- first, because he knows we know it's no GOP hatchet job; second, because meeting telling objection with telling reply isn't his stock in trade. He inspires. He rouses. He sends you airborne -- without telling you what it's going to cost when you come down.

That's the detail stuff -- cost. Obama seems to have decided we don't care about details; we trust him to do the backstage work that makes everything come out right.

The beauty of the Obama phenomenon -- and indeed there's a kind of beauty and unintentional charm to it, as well as vitality -- is this: Americans last year were ready for a spot of inspiration -- a jolt of moral Tabasco. Obama likes to talk about the problems he inherited from "his predecessor," George W. Bush. What he never mentions is the automatic clearance he received from Bush, after a long, mostly flat presidency -- to soar over the earth like a bird. Soar he did.

Birds, alas, however graceful in flight, have to come down to earth, where a fact is a fact is a fact; where the Congressional Budget Office tells us -- without actually telling us -- that there's no such thing as a smooth path to Happy Healthcare Land.

Good ideas -- with higher respect for the private sector than the Washington Democrats display -- can be found in abundance: none smooth, none easy, none foolproof. The challenge is to start talking and sorting out rather than dictating: wham, wham, do it my way. The Democratic way!

Brain surgery is the most methodical, no-nonsense enterprise anyone ever saw. What's the matter with politicians who propose to slice up, without X-rays or MRI, the best health care system in the world? No brains? Or too many for their own good?

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About The Author
Bill Murchison is a senior columns writer for The Dallas Morning News and author of There's More to Life Than Politics.
 
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Murchison!
All we hear from you people, the "GOP", is endless whining, obstructionism, complaints etc. Not an iota of solutions, suggestions or anything else is coming from you people. The best of it all is that all of the so-called senators from your side of the isle are neck deep in Big Pharma's, AMA's and other lobbyists pockets. Please do not DARE to come back and say "So are Democrats": at least they are trying to do SOMERTHING to include those 50 milion Americans who do not have any insurance!
How does it feel, William, to be one of those people who deny other human beings their right to medical care? How does it feel to be on the side of people who derive profit from human suffering? How does it feel to be so conclusively and positively amoral, evil and utterly corrupt? Please do enlighten us, because us normal humans do have empathy unlike you, William (I probably should call you Leon, though)!

John
So, I see - it is obstructionism for a columnist to question the continuation of Obama and Democrat attempts to spend untold trillions to put Americans in the same place as Canada and France and other socialist countries with Universal health coverage. It's very nice when you use scary words like "denying other human beings their right to medical care". Its very emotional, gets people to think how nice "free" coverage would be. It's not free, John, and it won't be good coverage, but it sounds so nice. Sometimes, we simply have to think about cost, John. That's the part you're forgetting.

More Stupidity - The Real Agenda...
Last Thursday at a town hall meeting in Rio Rancho New Mexico President Barack Obama was asked why, when “so many people go bankrupt using their credit cards to pay for healthcare. Why have they taken single-payer off the plate (audience applause), and why is Senator Baucus on the Finance Committee discussing health care when he has received so much money from the pharmaceutical companies? Isn’t it a conflict of interest?” (more audience applause)

“Healthcare is one-sixth of our economy, so it is a complicated and difficult task. Congress is going to have to work hard, and everybody is going to have to come at this with a practical perspective as opposed to being ideologically pure in getting it done… Why not do a single-payer system? … A single-payer system is like, Medicare is sort of a single-payer system, but it’s only for people over 65, and the way it works is, uh, the idea is you don’t have insurance companies as middle men. " - Barack Obama

Question: More than 80 House Democrats are supporting a single payer, Canadian-style, Medicare for all healthcare system. It's HR 676. Why don't you support it?

Pelosi: "I've always supported single payer."

Health insurance companies will be eliminated, people will not have a choice, bureacrats will run the system, rationing will be necessary to pay the tab, and our healthcare will be ruined.

And, Who Is Blocking It...
Howie Klein has a rundown of all the money that the people who are blocking real reform in health care have received from the health care industry.

Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $4,026,933)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $2,833,731)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $2,758,468)

"And when you just go right to Big Insurance, the non-presidential candidates who got the biggest legalized bribes were the 7 senators who have been tasked with the job of killing single-payer":

Ben Nelson (DLC-NE- $1,196,799)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $1,184,113)
Joe Lieberman (DLC- CT- $1,036,302)
Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $1,035,530)
Chuck Schumer (D-NY- $981,400)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $929,207)
Chuck Grassley (R-IA- $884,724)

Plus, the Senator from MBNA, Chris Dodd, who disapproves of a single-payer health care program and a tax on health benefits to pay for it.

Obama does not have the votes in the Senate and he will be unable to achieve a single-payer system with only House Liberals.

Thank God.

Gop v.s. Dems
John, NY

Do you guys have only one speech? I wonder who wrote it first? Perhaps Schummer, or Dodd, N ot Barney Frank - he's too stupid.

The Republicans have put forth a program that costs only in the hundreds of thousands - not in billions. Look it up if you can read.

As for Reps making money from it - What about Michelle and her hospital boards who have already hauled in millions. What about GE who owns the sniveling MSNBC with Ugh Olberman and thrilled to death Mathews?

GE will have the contract to do the medical reports - the programs the Drs can pass the information and fight with the government to try to get their patient help. Sort of pay-back for bootlicking and political contributions.

Probably most of the seniors will lose their coverage to MEDICAID - so they can go wait in the couunty hospitals for twelve hours like the woman who lay on the floor for twelve hours until they found she was dead.

Anyone who makes less thatn #2,000 a month will get tossed on MEDICAID - not Medicare - MEDICAID.
How much do you make? Perhaps MEDICAID would suit you.

By the way, there are quite a few Dems in on the ground floor for the new Medical enrollment plans - Look it up. They are big investors.

By the way, there are far fewer with policies than they say. It isn't necessary )nor fiscally sound) to turn over policies of the 3/4 of people who have coverage for the percent who do not. A lot of them don't want coverage because they'd rather spend the money on a fancier car. They are young, they figure they'll take a chance. They won't thank you for taxing them.

And, Who Is Blocking It...
Howie Klein has a rundown of all the money that the people who are blocking real reform in health care have received from the health care industry.

Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $4,026,933)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $2,833,731)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $2,758,468)

"And when you just go right to Big Insurance, the non-presidential candidates who got the biggest legalized bribes were the 7 senators who have been tasked with the job of killing single-payer":

Ben Nelson (DLC-NE- $1,196,799)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $1,184,113)
Joe Lieberman (DLC- CT- $1,036,302)
Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $1,035,530)
Chuck Schumer (D-NY- $981,400)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $929,207)
Chuck Grassley (R-IA- $884,724)

Obama does not have the votes in the Senate and he will be unable to achieve a single-payer system with only House Liberals.

Thank God.

$62,500 Per Individual
Yesterday, the CBO estimated that the current Democratic Senate health care bill would increase the defict by $1 trillion over 10 years while leaving 30 million uninsured, forcing the White House to distance itself from the legislation. While liberals have tried to emphasize that the CBO provided only a partial analysis of the draft legislation from Ted Kennedy's Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, a more comprehensive analysis of the legislation will only serve to drive the bill's ultimate cost higher. For instance, because it was only working with a draft of the bill that had holes in it, the CBO did not estimate the costs associated with increasing Medicaid elgibility to 150 percent of the poverty level, or the full cost of providing subsidies to individuals with incomes at up to 500 percent of the poverty level to purchase insurance through state-run exchanges. Once this is taken into account, liberals are right that the final CBO estimate will reflect more people being insured, but the cost of the legislation will go up as well.


Health Systems Innovations Network, a consulting group, went ahead and estimated the full cost of a bill that included the subsidies and Medicaid expansion, and reduced the number of uninsured by 99 percent. With these assumptions, they estimated the cost at a staggering $4 trillion over 10 years, resulting in the shift of 79 million Americans to government-run health care. The report does not include possible tax increases or spending offsets, but notes that, "this would be a challenging proposal to finance with budget neutrality."

The price tag for each individual covered is $62,500 per year.

http://spectator.org/blog/2009/06/16/report-kennedy-bill-wo uld-actu


ERROR with or without (GOP - DEMS)
Sorry - I said more far fewer (people) with policies - I should have said -

There are far fewer people who are uninsured that the government claims.

Please forgive my error - this "a bit at a time" natioanl socialism and takeover really gets to me.

Let's have some common sense.
Let's look at what we have now. We have outrageous costs for health care EVEN WHEN we have so-called insurance, because it is usually WORTHLESS when something big happens (even if they so magnanimously pay, say, 80%, the other 20% could do you in), and there is NO safety net to protect ANY of us (except maybe our wonderful members of Government who look after our interests SO well -- NOT!!!!)from going right into bankruptcy.

We do NOT have choice of providers. Each plan has its limited list of who is "in network." We DO have wait times. We have the worst bureaucrats running this Rube Goldberg contraption. And the worst of that is they are only working for ONE goal; that is, to MAKE MONEY FOR THE COMPANY. It is NOT to get you healthy.

We have untold other problems, such as malpractice suits, medical ID theft, and on and on.

The one and only way to fix this problem, with all its attendant problems, is SINGLE PAYER. From Obama on down, all the pols agree it is really the best system. Yet they arrogantly and stubbornly refuse to implement it. Now HHS sec'y Sebelius is also mouthing the party line and is refusing to entertain it. Even though she knows all of us single payer supporters are "furious," she is simply brushing all of us aside. How dare her.

Furious is not the word, honey chile. More like DETERMINED to get this single payer thing DONE in spite of her kind.

@ uwcharlie:
We already DO pay the most for the health care per capita out of all industrialized nations, yet our longevity, newborn death rates, and a myriad other metrics seriously lag behind other industrial nations. I am a consumer, and I do not think that we are getting our monies worth. That is as simple as it gets! Do not build a convenient strawman by putting word "free" in my mouth! I have never said that the new system with be free: but I would much rather spend billions on healthcare than on bailing out Wall Street like its GOP satraps do!

John
Please educate us by pointing out where medical care is "a right". Take all the time you need, but please be specific and spare us the 'feel good' rhetoric.

I personally feel that a bit of 'tough love' needs to be applied to this problem. It is well known that the figure of 47 million persons without health insurance is bogus - did you know that persons in the military are counted as being in this group!

But it is acknowledged that the figure is large.
It is also acknowledged that a significant percentage of these people do not have health care coverage simply because they do not want to spend the money. They would rather have the big screen TV and/or the fancy wheels.

Let's do this the easy way - from a given date, NO ONE receives medical care without confirmed medical coverage or cash upfront!!! NO ONE!!!

If someone can't afford medical coverage and doesn't have the cash, let their family be responsible for the debt or do without the treatment.

Is that harsh - yes.

Is it unfair - no.

Is it a good way to avoid our country going broke through misplaced and stupid feel-good (read socialist) universal health care - yes.

It is just like income taxes, those who don't pay any are all for the program(s) that exempts them - one of these days though, the adults are going to correct this problem also; it's time people paid their own way!

@ Pat:
The favorite pastime of GOP brownshirts: building strawmen and attacking them. You people have a knack for dodging reality until it smacks you in the face (like missing WMDs, or Katrina, or Wall Street collapse): this is not about how much I earn or that there are a few people who will refuse health insurance or any other non-issue. The point is this, and I will keep it extra simple for you hooked-on-phonics-home-schooled-never-left-the-county southern belle: we pay more than any citizen of any other industrialized nation per capita and we receive far worse service than the people in the same countries! What do you do when you are not getting your monies' worth? You find a solution! When Obama threatened Big Medicine with stricter rules, they came running to offer "voluntary" saving of several hundred billion dollars over a period of years. Is not that awesome? Now, imagine if we MANDATED streamlining of that industry, cutting overhead costs and then re-invest those savings as insurance for the un-insured?? Are you capable of comrehending that, or will you stick your anencephalic head in the sand and pray for Jesus to save you?

@ Walt:
Before we sink our proverbial teeth into your "argument" let us play along with your scenario: a pregnant woman has just lost her job and is broke. She is due soon, and she suddenly starts feeling sharp pains, the baby is distressed and she all of a sudden starts bleeding. She has no money, family is far away, and she has no insurance; hospital rejects her on the grounds that she cannot pay for "services". The woman dies, as does the baby. Who will have the blood of innocents on their hands? Keep the answer sweet and short, and please do not digress.
To answer your question: the right to medical care stems from the sanctity of all human life. Human life is sacred and as such EVERYTHING needs to be done to preserve it, including health care provisioning.

Will he stop campaigning & get to work?
He has yet to stop campaigning. He went out and "campaigned for the 'stimulus"--we had to have it RIGHT NOW, HURRY, HURRY HURRY! The country is going to collapse! And get it he did, with the Congress (Democrat) passing it without reading a word of it. Is it giving us the 3 million jobs promised? Has it kept the unemployment rate below the 8% he said we'd have by the end of the year if we didn't pass it? NO, NO and NO.

Now he is campaigning for healthcare in the same, exact way. Only now it is HURRY, HURRY HURRY PEOPLE WILL BE DYING ON THE STREETS.

Anyone with an IQ above their shoe size is going to realize that any public plan will eventually result in a single payer plan as businesses will go with the cheaper government plan, which will be kept artificially cheaper with taxpayer dollars. Once the competion is eliminated, everyone will be forced into the government plan. Obama stated on many, many occasions that he wants a single payer plan and if this is passed, he'll get it.

We will be screwed with a plan that will ration care, especially for the elderly and critically ill. If you're 60 or older, get your estate in order because if you get sick, they will let you die by denying care. Look at Canada and Great Britain, they've been doing it for years.

@ Marie:
Do you know why American businesses are failing en masse? One of the biggest reasons is the fact that they are paying for healthcare of their employees! I think that GM is NOT in the business of paying for health costs of its workers, but in the business of making vehicles! As long as we let it build vehicles it will do just fine. But when it has to do that, pay for its employees healthcare and pensions and on and on and on - it is no wonder that it sank like an axe! Free the American Business to do business, and let the goverment take care of the healthcare of its citizens.
By the way, with all the venom you spew forth against Canada and UK, do you know what the average expectancy of a Canadian or a Briton is, compared to the life expectancy of an American? Of course you do not know, because if you did - you'd never dare use that comparison in a company of educated people.

The answers are as follows: Canada 81.23; UK 79.01 USA 78.11 (according to this year's CIA Factbook).

Wrong Body Part Picked
How about a rectal examination...with the fat end of a bat! ObamaNation at work, and a black conservative blogger willing to tell the truth about him...http://theblacksphere.net/site/obamacare-america-gets-new-proctologist/

HYSTERICAL stuff!

To walt
Your solution that nobody gets medical care unless he puts the money on the counter first would not be acceptable in any civilized nation. (I say this in full awareness that many who post to townhall are positively salivating at the thought of turning away a poor minority person or an illegal Mexican immigrant who is ill---they would stand at the door of the Emergency Room filming the turning-away and post it online so they all their friends could enjoy the spectacle over and over.)

For the rest of us, here's how things work: no society will accept a law that runs counter to its values. And Western Civilization in 2009 has a value that a child with appendicitis, a woman in labor, a construction worker with a compound fracture of the femur, or an old person gasping for breath with pneumonia, will receive medical treatment that will relieve suffering and, if possible, save life. NO SOCIETY WILL ACCEPT A LAW THAT RUNS COUNTER TO THE VALUES OF THAT SOCIETY. This is Lesson # 1 in any course of study dealing with public social policy.

Human beings get sick. Human society copes with this in many ways. We are now the only industrialized nation that does not involve the government in distribution of medical care. Our way has been to handle this through private insurance and employers, but the failures of this system are obvious (one example being that if John loses his job, he loses medical coverage for his diabetic wife and his four children). The segment of society that milks sick people in order to make money from them is fighting change. The change is to help YOU.

Down Memory Lane
I am an old lady. One advantage of being old is that you develop a huge data-bank of memories. I remember the fight about Medicare---when people said the same things they are saying now, that Medicare would be socialized medicine, that care would be rationed, that patients would have no choice, that waits would be long, that old people would be sent off to an island to die without medical intervention. Didn't happen.

The profit motive does not necessarily inspire good medicine but it does inspire a lot of profit. Personal example: Having moved to a new city, I had a procedure done by a private physician who had run for public office as a Republican and had pictures of Reagan all over his office; we can assume his ideological position. He insisted my procedure could be done only in a hospital operating room although it is usually done in an office setting and takes less than five minutes. BTW he was a principal of the small hospital where he had me admitted. His bill to me was $650 and related hospital costs came to $2000, all of it covered by my insurance. I then changed my care to a specialist in the same field (a full professor who outranked the private guy, re credentials) but who is on salary at a university medical center. Six months later I had the same procedure there, where it was done in the office (as I had had it probably two dozen times previously). It was billed to me at $125.


To uwcharlie
Here's a bulletin for you: this isn't all about snatching money from your greedy hands, money that you had planned to spend for that new $4000 TV set, and handing it over to some lazy black bum who hangs out on street corners and chooses not to work. This is about YOU.

This is about providing security to the MIDDLE CLASS. This is about ALL citizens not having to go into panic mode when somebody gets sick. This is about you not having to postpone marriage until you are forty because you are paying off Mama's operation (this is what used to happen). This is about your thirty year-old son, when he has a skiing accident and gets a splintery infected bone break, not accruing a $100,000 debt just as he's getting established in life. This is about the father of a diabetic child getting laid off and then his next employer not extending Blue Cross to the child because diabetes is a pre-existing condition. This is about society being more than people trying to make money from one another.

400 years ago a poet said when you hear a funeral bell ringing at a church, don't bother asking who it's for, because it's for YOU, for every one of us: we share our human connection. Responsibility for one another is the price of civilization. We are not wild animals saying "I have to eat you up quick before you devour me." That single-payer plan isn't just about "those other people". It is about every one of us.

lilly
Healthcare like all government projects isn't an either or thing that they would make you believe. The choice isn't either fully government or fully monopoly control or nothing at all. The parasite class wins (both in government and in big business) if you start to believe this lie. There are viable solutions to fix the insurance industry by making it more capitalistic. Making there actually be competition to reduce the prices. These ideas are never heard because there isn't power (money to be made) in them. So we are left with this ridiculous choice between Universal Healthcare or what we have. Most American's are going to chose what we have because there is no such thing as creditable government. Especially when they say there is only one solution. THIS GOES FOR ANYTHING: Anyone who says there is only one solution is either a dishonest, sociopath, trying to sell you snake-oil or misinformed, completely uncurious person. Like life there are many choices.

Lilliputian, Medicare is socialized
medicine and it does not cover any dental or oral procedures, although medicine now knows that many heart infections are caused by oral cavity problems.

Medicare also denies preventive medicine. You cannot get a CT or MRI because cancer runs in your family until you already have symptoms.
Medicare only reimburses less than 80% of any billed procedure, making secondary private insurance a MUST.

Medicare bills are so verbose and arcane that their statement of your making a complaint or asking a question is virtually impossible; i.e., when my father’s final hospital bill spreadsheet arrived, it literally could be run up and down the living room twice. It noted bills paid to dermatologists, orthopedic surgeons, a podiatrist, yadda, and he died of colon cancer. My mother was too distraught to address the padding,, but obviously every dr. (many likely also Democrats) dropped in on father while in a coma and then billed him.

When my mother died, I was billed for a wheelchair she never had, a room she was never in (she died in ER), and told to come pick up a suitcase of belongings in storage (billed for storage) she never took to the hospital. I solved those issues directly with the hospital itself.

My dr. is part owner of two clinics and a rehab center (who else but medical people would own them?). He is a Dem. and was an O supporter, but now says the AMA and drs. are getting NO input into this Kennedy travesty that the Sen. is not encouraged to read, a la the stimulus.

Call the Sen. 202-224 (225) 3121 and say NO.

Bork Sotomayor.

Say no to *hate crimes* leg. that may be voted today.

To Marie re Rationed Care
When I hear the argument that medical care should never be rationed, I think of a man I knew who was on VA benefits. He had terminal cancer with a life expectancy of a year or less. He chose to have full dental implants and an operation on his (townhall filter won't let me use the word p**** meaning "male sex organ") so he could get bigger and better erections because he wanted to be a sexy man in his last days. Now he wasn't paying for any of this stuff himself: he was using VA. Is this really the way you want your tax dollars to be spent?

Should there be oversight of how medical money is spent? Here's one reason why the answer is "yes". Edgewater Hospital, in Chicago, was permanently shut down several years ago following exposure of a scandal. Hospital principals were recruiting homeless guys who were then admitted and given expensive medical tests and procedures, all billed to Medicaid. These patients were not sick (it was all a scam) and they were being paid off with money and cigarettes. Physicians were in on the scam, which, please note, was being run by the private sector. Pure free-market capitalism and ethical medical care do not necessarily go together.

With democrats,
wisdom and results simply don't matter. All that matters is that they proceed with the best of intentions. The end result, of course, is a host of unintended consequences that most likely could have been foreseen had anybody stopped to think. Or simply read the bill for that matter.


Medicare fraud is so terrible
that a short-lived attempt to stop it was interrupted by Cong.

In 2005, the Medicare Fraud and Recovery Act was passed (under Bush), and it was applied one year to five states.

The audit recovered nearly 1/2 a trillion--$385,000,000, but Cong. considered it too successful.

In 2007, a bipartisan pair from CA (one Dimwit and one RINO) introduced a bill to stop the 2005 law until it was *evaluated* for its effectiveness. It was too effective.

According to Citizens Ag. Gov't Waste (begun by Peter Grace under Reagan), much Medicare fraud are forms of pol. kickbacks to the medical industry in exchange for supporting particularly Dem. programs and pols.

Medicare is not FREE. I have $105 deducted monthly from my Soc. Sec. for it. I then also have to have Horizon as secondary ins., as Medicare pays less than 80% of anything, does not cover preventive care, and covers no dental or oral procedures, surgery or not.

Medicare is bankrupt. It is actually out of money in 2010, but by Cong.'s inane accounting, it will supposedly last until 2017. Actually, like Soc. Sec., Medicare has no *lockbox* and is simply mingled with general revenues so Cong. has more money to play with.

Tell Cong. NO. 202-224 (225) 3121.

Obama the Liar
Great analogies in this column. Did anyone notice how many times Obama told his AMA audience not to pay attention to anyone who disagreed with him? He repeatedly used the word 'lying'. Nice try, pal. We know who the liar is.

John
Someone with a heart is someone who helps someone even though it causes inconvenience for themselves. Someone with a bleeding heart is someone who helps the someone even though it causes the village to go bankrupt.
"So are Democrats" look up Terry MacCaulife. Just because democrats are for universal healthcare doesn't mean they are on your side. It is like saying unions care about their people and not expanding their own power (how about not deliberately destroying the company you work for).
Also it is a lie to say people are denied coverage. Everyone gets coverage through emergency room care. Even illegal immigrants. They don't get the expensive procedures covered by insurance, but who is to say the government universal healthcare would cover those procedures. France's universal healthcare's ineptitude killed 10,000 people because the weather got to 92 degrees. The elderly died in droves. No one was fired. Heck they might have given him a medal because the ponzi scheme was allowed to continue. It's one way to cut costs. The point is to think universal healthcare will solve everything is not accurate. If you could please give me one foreigner who is for universal healthcare than you might start to change minds. But I can't find one foreigner who is for it and for some strange reason the Democrats won't find a foreigner that is for their universal healthcare. I don't think one exist (out of the billion or so who have it). Again find one. That's all I am asking for. Just one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave

I'm a little surprised at Barry
.. thinking he could step in front of an audience of doctors -- people who actually know how to think -- and try to control their behavior. He apparently met his match this time, as evidenced by the boos. Nice try, Hussein. Not everyone is yet a mindless robot in this country. Charm has its limits. His approach is best suited for the terminally stupid among us.

John
That estimate isn't completely accurate (Average Life Expectancy). I believe America counts it's birth deaths into its average life expectancy and no other country does that which of course lowers the number. No matter how few, death at 0 hurts the average.

But what also lowers the number is family structure and community. Americans are all over the place and don't take care of their elderly like they are suppose to. The Japanese have strict customs that take care of grandpa and grandma which increase life expectancy more than say universal healthcare would ever increase it by. If you read the book Outliers by Malcom Gladwell it says that a strong community is one of the most important factors in determining life expectancy. So if you really cared about Grandma and Grandpa you would have government promote communities to interact and work together instead of big government. Are you becoming a conservative John?

renny
Do you by any chance have the link to those findings? I knew they are high, but I didn't know they were that much. I couldn't find them on google and am interested in the findings.

To renny
I could not agree with you more; see the post I made a few minutes ago re the Edgewater Hospital scandal in Chicago. The medical private sector does not have clean hands; greed has motivated many medical free-market types to run scams and in other ways to clean up like a vacuum cleaner.

The Right always assumes that taking the profit motive out of medicine will result in poor medicine. If you look at big university medical centers, the opposite is true since the doctors are medical school faculty on straight salary---what you get is not only not poor medicine but, more likely, the very best state-of-the-art medicine.

In any case, Obama isn't talking about converting us to a system that excludes private medicine. He's offering us a choice.

Re preventive screenings not being offered to an asymptomatic patient, private insurance won't pay for them either---it's not just Medicare saying that. I would expect to see a national system address this since prevention is clearly an Obama priority. Meanwhile, your mom can take advantage of free community screenings (churches and health fairs offer cholesterol, blood sugar, blood pressure etc checks). Also, there's an outfit called Life Line Screening (google for details) that does an arterial ultrasound screening (for stroke potential) for a very nominal fee; they go around to various cities and set up in community centers, libraries etc. If they find some arterial blockage, your doctor can then order further studies based on those findings and proceed from that point.

To ropati
When President Obama spoke to the AMA, along with some boos he also received several standing ovations. What do you think the applause was all about? Do you think that maybe the AMA met ITS match?

Interestingly, the townhall news blurb that afternoon reported only the boos. The applause and standing ovations were not even mentioned.

To Jason
Yes, there are many choices in life, and the last I heard, Obama was offering us a choice:

"If you have private insurance, and you like what you have, you can keep it." The problem is that people who have NO money and NO insurance have NO choice and NO medical care.

About a year ago there was a TV special about charitable outfit that travels to poor Third-world nations (like, in Africa) to run free medical clinics. For several days, local people stand in line for 10-12 hours so they can get their medical problems, which typically are of a severe and emergent nature, attended to by medical professionals.

On this occasion, the same outfit was running a 3-day weekend clinic in the American South, I think it was Tennessee but I am going from memory. Same thing: people drove for 100 miles and waited for 2 days to see a doctor or nurse. The problems they brought were severe, but these folks had been going without ANY medical care. They had NO choice but to suffer and quite possibly die, just as if they were still living on the frontier in 1815. With a government plan in place, they would have had immediate access to care for their kidney stones, brain tumors, and congestive heart failure.

You think government is not credible; I think the private sector is greedy and often crooked. On this point we may have to agree to disagree. But I believe it's immoral and deeply un-Christian to tell people, "You are a sick patient and I am a doctor with the means to relieve or cure you, but I will not treat you unless you first pay me a lot of money."

Lilly to ropati
Those rotten TH news blurbers. Imagine not reporting all the news. This smacks abominably of supporting an agenda by selective reporting. Thank goodness this is a rarity among our media.

Standing ovations, so what
When the Great O spent $25,000 and tied up NYC for an entire day, he and Queen O were an hour late to their Broadway show, but the audience, patient all that time, gave the King Elect and consort a standing ovation.

Shows today typically receive standing ovations for the most mediocre performances.

Big O still has over 60% popularity polls but his job performance and handling of the ec. are showing up in AP, Gallup, and Rasmussen polls in the 40's%--not a good sign.

One reason O and minions want to pass *stimulus* and *healthcare* packages at such a speed no one has time to read them is because they would NEVER pass if anyone did read them.

Already, $10 BILLION of the *stimulus* as being outed as bloat and fraud--millions for homeless shelters in villages with no homeless, bridge and highway support on little used roadways, and Cong. Murtha's private airport in PA (the *Murtha Airport* which rarely has a plane from one day to the next).

This *healthcare* is like *card check* and *hate crimes,* bills that should not be addressed without enough time and public awareness so the nation knows what our *representatives*--who often just rep. their own interests--are passing.

Jason, if yoiu refer to Medicare
fraud, Google Citizens Against Government Waste.

I didn't get the numbers from the web. CAGW publishes a newsletter, and I subscribe.

Some experts have posed up to 1/3 of Medicare is overpayment or mistaken payments along with outright fraud and criminality.

Remember Perot? He made his millions in TX in processing Medicare payments.

And I have no figures on Medicaid, the state indigent medical program, but I know those costs are near bankrupting some states, like CA, that has nearly 30% of its population as immigrants outright or illegals. 28% of the CA penal system is illegals in lockup. Ergo, you might presume that med. costs in CA for Medicaid are also really high.

Government-run Universal Healthcare.
...Doesn't work. Not anywhere in the world.
You & I care, but the Bilderberger-Democrats don't. What's a couple of thousand dead drones here or there? Welcome to Our Brave'New" World, my friends!

This bill
is partly the work of "Brain-Dead-Ted".

John: Since 1991, I've been telling presidents, governors, senators, congressmen, society, etc, that the best & quickest way to reduce the cost of healthcare and medical care is to remove all the taxes from it, thereby cutting the price by one-third (1/3). That is a very good workable solution. All it needs is for Congress to pass it.
The Democrat-controlled-Congress wrote and passed the bill to bail out Wall Street.
Many millions of those without health insurance are illegal aliens.
The pregnant woman enters the ER which MUST give her care!!!
The unions got that healthcare and pensions. Why don't you blame them?

The Democ-rats' solution consists of raising taxes and denying treatment as written in the Porkulus Bill passed by Democ-rats and signed by Obamba.

BRAIN DEAD DRONES

.....To the bubble headed drones that call themselves DEMOCRATS ...just promise them free dog sh*t from the Government and they will line up in droves ...

....."Free" health care is the bait ...the trap is Government controls the rest of your life .....COLOSSUS

@ you people:
Remember this as long as you live, that every society will be judged by the way they treat their weakest and poorest and those most at risk. If your subpar brains cannot understand anything else in this debate - take this home and book with confidence, you atavisms!

John, your ignorance is showing...
"All we hear from you people, the "GOP", is endless whining, obstructionism, complaints etc."

As opposed to YOU people, the "liberals" (such a ridiculous description of a people who in reality really don't care about liberty), where all we here is complaints about Bush, bumper stickers, sayings, platitudes...

2 wrongs don't make a right Johnny...

"Not an iota of solutions, suggestions or anything else is coming from you people."

So where are the solutions from YOU people? All we here is "change change change" ad-nauseum...but nothing concrete...

I challenge you "liberals" to cite one, JUST ONE, actual, concrete solution emminating from your "savior in charge" that hasn't blown up in his (and OUR) faces. Smart money says you CAN'T.

This healcare "plan" of his is just another in a long line of ideas designed to "punish the successful" and "remake our nation".

"The best of it all is that all of the so-called senators from your side of the isle are neck deep in Big Pharma's, AMA's and other lobbyists pockets."

Ohhh God, here we go AGAIN with the whining and complaining and jealousy against "the rich". Jeez almighty, if you crepe-hanging liberals would put HALF as much energy into thinking and doing for yourself instead of braying against those of us who DO, we wouldn't be in this major mess.

John and his ignorance...PT 2...
"How does it feel, William, to be one of those people who deny other human beings their right to medical care?"

Yet another demoCRAP non-sequitor...walk around toting the line about how many people don't have *medical care* (if you cared about being accurate at all, you'd have written MEDICAL INSURANCE - 'cause NOBODY is denied CARE, stupid!) and accompany that by inventing some boogie-man who supposedly "denies other human beings their right"...mix that around and cry about it enough in a vain attempt to make everyone believe it...facts be damned.

You guys really need some new material...

"How does it feel to be on the side of people who derive profit from human suffering?"

Ohhhh brother...you poor suffering baby. How hard life is for you and your liberal loser ilk...

You live in a nation that (to-date, lord only knows what's coming down the pike courtesy of Barack the HNIC) offers you the opportunity to purchase a computer and log onto a website to voice your opinion without recourse (backed as it is by such limited intelligence). You live in a nation that (as of today) offers you the opportunity to pull yourself up from your sad sorry existance and make something of yourself. You live in a nation that (again, until Barry Hussein GOD gets his grubby hands on it) uses the Constitution as it's mantra to define someone's right to freedom, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness...

And you? You choose to be a liberal complaining crybaby loser. You choose to look for the government to feed you, clothe you, change your diapers and wipe cream on your rash...forever.

It's actually quite sad...don't you think?

Not Possible
It is not possible to control prices effectively, when the user of the service is not the one paying for the service.....period. As for the so-called saving, this idea of spending money to save money, only a fool would believe that. Besides, whatever "savings" that may occur will be eaten up in the long term by medical inflation, which will not be helped by having more people with health insurance. And when medical costs rise, the cost of insurance will rise accordingly.

A challenge to the libs...
To John, Lilly, Hal, and the other usual mouth-breathing liberal trolls...a challenge:

I challenge you...nay, I DARE you...to name a proposed solution/bill/idea originating from Barack Obama and his administration that has shown to be a success to-date, or has shown that it eventually will become a success.

I'm betting you won't be able to do this. So far his actions have only made things worse. You of course, don't agree...so, why?

Here's the "rub" though - saying things like "he has brought hope and change to America" or "he has restored our reputation around the world" doesn't cut it so don't even bother. We need details, facts, numbers...no fluff...actual solutions to actual problems we all face - and we all know what they are.

So let's hear it, Barack worshipers...can you do this? Do you have it in you?? Show us what you are made of...prove that voting him into office was what we needed...show us you are more than the pied-piper's mice that blindly followed him over a cliff. Are you up for a challenge...or not?

I'll wait but I won't hold my breath.

John, give it a REST...
"Do you know why American businesses are failing en masse? One of the biggest reasons is the fact that they are paying for healthcare of their employees!"

And why is THAT, Johnny? Because your UNION buddies used strong-armed tactics to wear-down company management into agreeing to the bankrupting policy of health-care benefits for retired workers. Must be NICE to get that...I, not a union member, will not realize this benefit.

"I think that GM is NOT in the business of paying for health costs of its workers, but in the business of making vehicles! As long as we let it build vehicles it will do just fine. But when it has to do that, pay for its employees healthcare and pensions and on and on and on - it is no wonder that it sank like an axe!"

See above response, again - UNIONS caused that. If they were more interested in the company AND the employee succeeding together instead of hardheadedly forcing companies to give everything over to them without recourse, perhaps GM would still be the profitable company it was for so long.

"Free the American Business to do business"

WHOA - how DARE you defy the Obomination and suggest that American companies be free to do buisness as they choose! You becoming a capitalist all of a sudden, Johnny??

"and let the goverment take care of the healthcare of its citizens."

Since when does our gubmint ever actually "take care" of anything?? Tis' a slippery-slope you slide towards, me laddie.

"By the way, with all the venom you spew forth against Canada and UK"

I don't think that was the goal here. Nobody is "spewing venom" at Canada or the UK...the venom is being spewed at their socialist health care system...unmitigated disasters if ever there were any. We don't want it here. NIMBY!

Nick "kick-save" deflection with the facts and argument there, John-boy.

More for Joel de Oppresso Liber (13:51)
You forgot critical factoid, which bin NYC John's bakvas story: hospitals (particularly ER's) actually have a REQUIREMENT to care for "indigents" (which is abused greatly by malfeasant aliens who wish to deliver "anchor babies" and then pull a sob-story about "family separation" in order to stay in the country against which they have wilfully committed a crime).

To Joel...
"The blood is on the hands of that woman. EVERY town in America has churches and charities that would help ANY woman in the situation you described. Because she was unwilling to go to a church or charity for help, she died. Unfortunately, her child died also."

This is the strikingly, painfully obvious difference between conservatives and our liberal "bretheren". They (the libs) seek blame, restitution, reparation...SOMEONE has to pay - as long as it's not the one actually responsible.

The woman is pregnant, I'll assume there's no father/husband, no job, no money, family exists but they are far away, etc...and this is the fault of honest taxpayers and the responsibility of the US government????

John conveniently leaves out details (another character of his "side")...did the woman become pregnant as a result of a "booty call" or other irresponsible behaviour? Couldn't she have gotten into her car and driven to the family supposedly "far away"? No car...how about a bus? Is she speaking with her family?

Life is filled with choices. I'm guessing this woman didn't become pregnant against her will (since John-boy conveniently left out whether she was raped or not).

One has to wonder what someone has up their sleeve when they want to pay the bill for their life choices with OPM.

BRAIN SURGERY
on a lib?

Now THAT truly IS operating in a vacuum.

LIB WUSSIES
discussed on the Anti Liberal Zone today. (Click on my handle to read it. Also, one of my trolls OUTS libs as, well, sissified girlymen!)

John
If this is so good for ALL Americans, why are those who are foisting this debacle on us exempt? Do you think for one second that the elitist so calle public employees we hire every two to six years will lower themselves to be among the great unwashed peasants and take the same kind of health care? I notice Teddy the Swimmer Kennedy, didn't waste any time getting the Mercedes healthcare with his brain tumor..he didn't go to the little home town
hospital that you'd be forced to go to IF you could get the treatment that WILL be rationed.
The elected elites including the person occupying the White House will have for LIFE the top of the line health care and YOU, idiot will be helping pay for it via taxes that will skyrocket.

Window-licking Lilly
"(I say this in full awareness that many who post to townhall are positively salivating at the thought of turning away a poor minority person or an illegal Mexican immigrant who is ill---they would stand at the door of the Emergency Room filming the turning-away and post it online so they all their friends could enjoy the spectacle over and over.)"

You are a sad, sad individual, that these thoughts even cross your mind.

Do you lie awake at night thinking these ridiculous thoughts?

Do you wake up salivating at the thought of entering Townhall.com and entering these thoughts into posted words?

Lilly, I know you are not much longer of this earth so I'll try to give you a break, since in your last days you at the very least deserve pity...

Pity, because as a by-product of your old age, apparently your mind has turned to permanent mush.

Pity, because you are determined to spend your last days as a bitter, angry old clueless troll.

You have seen this country go from a primitive state of affairs to an economic and military super-power and now you want to return us back to the primitive nature you must apparently endured in the 1910's and 1920's.

The rest of us who will live on with the implications of your vote for Obama do not want this. So get over it and live out your last days/weeks/whatever in peace and harmony. We will tend to the running of our nation, thanks very much.

(Oh, and for the record, the *ILLEGAL* Mexican immigrant should NOT be here and thus, does NOT deserve health care in our hospitals. Because they are ILLEGAL.)

Thanks Renny
Thanks Renny

The Sad Story
In your article, for me is, I don't believe Brain Surgery will help the Gods(Republicans or Democrats). It is important to remember these Gods think they can control the temperature of the earth, control the lifestyle choices of the American People, and tell the American People what they should eat and drink to keep their health care cost down. You infer the problem is in or with the brain. I think the problem is in their DNA. That's why they keep using the same statistics to make their case: 180,000 women die from breast cancer each year, and 400,00 people die from smoking each year. Those are DNA lies and when you bust them it's "smoking related". I guess it is hard to explain how people who do not smoke die from cancer or from heart attacks each year. I am sure some of the Liberals on TH.Com could help the Gods with that.

Renny, good for the most part, but
if you believe that the One's night in NY only cost $25,000 for 2 helicopter rides and 2 airplane rides, plus the cost of the date, you are as naive as Lilly. His estimate of what that date cost is very similar to the estimates of this boondoggle healthcare crapola is, off by a factor of 10 or more.

John...you are such a...
DO*CHEBAG!

Witness...

"The favorite pastime of GOP brownshirts: building strawmen and attacking them."

Ohhhh really??

"Tax cuts for the rich"...
"Bush lied kids died"...
"Global warming is an unmitigated certainty that will result in catastrophic consequences if we don't act now to combat climate change"...

Do these sound like things your so-called "GOP brownshirts" would say?

"You people have a knack for dodging reality until it smacks you in the face (like missing WMDs,"

Existed. Only the extreme STUPID (read: YOU liberals) actually still believe that they didn't. I guess Saddam would have to have drawn you a map to where he hid them before you'd believe they existed.

"Katrina,"

Talk about straw-man...how did this become the GOP's problem/fault?

Did George Bush forget to lock Mother Nature in for the night or something? You'd think, the way you dopes still blame Katrina on him.

"or Wall Street collapse)"

In case you just woke up from a 6-month nap, this is STILL happening - thanks you your economic genius runing our country from the inside-out, and his "we need an economic stimulus package now...without it we will have a catastrophe on our hands" management/presidential style.

John the DOOSH pt. 2...
This is M/O - to spout poetic about how inaction on one of his drastic radical changes would be "catastrophic" - the "Chicken Little" governing. I'm not buying it; many others aren't either. That you did and continue to speaks volumes about your character and lack of concrete thinking. You bought, ingested, and now are awash in the Kook-Aid (NOT a misspelling).

"this is not about how much I earn or that there are a few people who will refuse health insurance or any other non-issue...(BLAH BLAH BLAH crap mercifully snipped for space)"

No, indeed not...

This is about a general populace that has been led by their collective noses to voting for THE most undesireable, undeserving, unqualified, unvetted man that could have ever been elected. A man with no visible or viable experience running ANYTHING prior to his "victory". A man who wants to "reshape" and "change" our nation...for the WORSE.

In other words, a man who, to coin a metaphor, is putting a new engine into a car that simply needs an oil change.

Do we have problems in this country? You bet. But you don't throw out the baby with the bath-water.

Simply put - we were duped, fooled, and now the residue of this is starting to fall on all of us.

You are still asleep at the wheel. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Lilly,
I am so glad you come to TH to tell your cutsey wootsey stories of good and evil in the big bad capitalistic world we live in. If only we would listen to Obama all would be well in La La Land. Ah, the benevelent, omnicient all knowing, caring and totally competent government will be tending to all our needs. No need to make a profit or deny anybody anything. Oh, isn't love grand. But, alas, those nasty conservatives just won't give-in and let the good people in congress do their work. There is Teddy, The Swimmer, Kennedy and Christopher, Mortgage Fraud, Dodd trying to get the citizens a comprehensive health care package. Everything is just so warm and fuzzy, why can't we all see it? And, of course Obama says that if we like the healthcare plan we have, we can keep it. I feel so confident because, the taxpayers will be paying for their own plan and a competing government plan that the private insurers won't be able to compete with and will subsequently go out of business...which is what Obama, and no doubt you, want to happen. What a large load of CRAP we are being fed. You need to emerge from La La Land, Lilly.

LILLY

.....what is the difference between a bag of dog sh*t and OBAMA THE BOY KING? ...

...A. The bag .....COLOSSUS

he is not a great speaker
Please - no more "well, he is a good speaker.." He isn't - he's condescending, without depth and, if no teleprompter is present, absolutely clueless. Never have I despised a president more. He is trying to destroy our country and the media and far left are assisting him. Shame on the whole worthless bunch.

Where is the truth?
Over and again, we have been led astray. We have been told that television would give us unfettered truth. We believed the media. We believed politicians. We believed companies. We believed institutions.

"Let your yes be yes and your no be no" seem to be lost in modern politcs, journalism and society at large

Heres a blog post that talks about that:

http://redletterbelievers.blogspot.com/2009/06/will-we-ever -trust-again.html

Lilly
I don't know what you consider old, but you obviously are not old enough to remember when everyone had to buy their own health insurance. I remember the first job I had that provided insurance. I thought I had won the lottery.

Health care is free for anyone who walks into an emergency room. Of course, this has driven up the cost of emergency care and also general health care for the rest of us.

If we stop providing free health care, free schooling and all the other free stuff to illegal aliens, they will all go home. Problem solved. You don't really think they come here for a minimum wage job. They come for the free stuff.

Renny
"Medicare only reimburses less than 80% of any billed procedure, making secondary private insurance a MUST."
---------------------------
My son has Tricare, through the military (his dad is retired Army), and they ask for secondary insurance, and want it to pay FIRST. This is actually done at the clinic on base where we live (Air Force, that's why it's a base, not a post), where you must have Tricare Prime (retirees must pay for this, by the way) in order to even be seen on base.

Most people are ready
except for the true conservatives which make up 28% of the country.

Cong could stop *anchor* babies
with an actual law stating that babies born here to foreign nataionals are not citizens.

The *law* comes from, natch, a court interpretation.

The *family reunionification* krap comes from TED KENNEDY and his 1966 and 1986 immigration *reform* laws, along with his life-long goal of making sure Puerto Ricans vote for carpetbagging senate candidates in NYC (Bobby was one) and making the US a *chocolate* country.

U.S. Healthcare vs. the World
John, I'll hand ONE thing to you: study after study DOES show that the value of healthcare in America does lag behind most industrialized nations, for the money! But consider this: America has the HIGHEST number of law suits of any country. Do you know that if you receive Medicaid, you cannot sue for malpractice, even if it can be proved. So what are you gonna do . . . sue the government? Just try! I'll wager you won''t get very far!

I do have a question for you. Have you ever heard of the Green River Ordinance? Most states have one. G.O.O. allows for one or more hospitals to perform services to be reimbursed by the state. I know that Ohio does, check to see if your state does, too.

Resistance
is futile.

The Borg.

Stupid Kennedy Bill
If Senator Kennedy, with all his wealth and easy access to advanced medicine, failed to get an MRI Scan to diagnose his brain tumor at a treatable stage, how can he be trusted to provide Americans with a health plan that would diagnose diseases at treatable stages? Did he personally choose bad doctors who neglected obvious symptoms, such as his infamous January 12, 2005 National Press Club statement “Why don’t we ask Osama Bin Laden, Osama Obama, Obama why he won by such a big amount” or was he too cheap to pay the co-pay for a diagnostic scan in 2005? In any case, trusting his judgment for Americans’ health care would be as stupid as trusting his advice on how to drive over a Chappaquiddick Island bridge.

The GOOD, THE BAD & THE UGLY...

GOOD is on the outside, looking in; while the BAD is on the inside looking out; and it's going to get UGLY before GOOD is on the inside, again.

http://incongress.blogtownhall.com/
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