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Tuesday, March 10, 2009
Bill Murchison :: Townhall.com Columnist
Of Stem Cells And 'Ideologues'
by Bill Murchison
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In America, 2009, things happen that you once wouldn't have thought would happen, such as deference toward human life smacked down as outworn ideology. By the President of the United States, no less. So it goes in the Age of Obama.

"Promoting science," said our new chief executive, in overturning a George W. Bush executive order limiting stem cell research on embryos, is "about letting scientists … do their jobs, free from manipulation or coercion … It is about ensuring that scientific data is never distorted or concealed to serve a political agenda -- and that we would make scientific decisions based on facts, not ldeology."

The "ideology" of human life -- life as good, valuable, worthy of protection from unprovoked violence -- underlay the Bush policy of ruling out experimentation on new embryos to find, supposedly, new ways of combating diseases, such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and other physical disorders.

Now an ideology isn't the same as a philosophy: It's a structure of pure ideas that someone or other has concocted out of thin air to suit himself. Lenin was an ideologue. Hitler was an ideologue. Get the idea?

Those who regard the destruction of human embryos as equivalent to the destruction of people have made up this stuff -- see? Just spun it out of cotton candy. No "people" there! Just -- you know -- embryos. That's according to the Obama administration's fantastical account.

The President has things precisely backwards. In a stem cell context, the "ideology" is that Science, the great abstraction that only really smart people understand, trumps competing considerations. What Science wants, Science deserves -- didn't you know?

The "facts" of the matter are twofold: 1) a human embryo contains human life -- is human life (as any scientist will acknowledge), at least until destroyed for research purposes; and 2) not even Obama can "guarantee that we will find the treatments and cures we seek" -- though we're going to burn through some goodly number of embryos while trying.

Everyone with a functioning brain cell knew Obama was going to throw out the Bush policy, because he campaigned on the issue. The real shock lies in recollecting just how wobbly is the pulpit from which he preaches. For all the disdain Obama showed the "political agenda" behind the Bush order, his redo on stem cell research is fluorescently political. Liberals, who make up Obama's biggest constituency, dislike the right-wing "fundamentalists" they accuse Bush of courting. Family members of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's patients clamor for intensified research into causes and cures. If you ran for president as the Un-Bush, you know what victory demands by way of performance.

During the campaign Obama talked of finding "common ground" on abortion and, presumably, other human life questions. Common ground turns out to mean, my ground, my rules, of course you're welcome to stand here on those entirely thoughtful and reasonable terms.

The most that opponents of stem cell research get is acknowledgment of their decency -- with the implied caveat that they ought to drop the "politics."

A long presidency, from the human-life (as well as the economic-financial) perspective, this is going to be. Indeed, the stem cell business raises the question -- leave ethics aside -- of how practical a presidency Obama's will prove.

As you reach out to hit the reset button -- Joe Biden's metaphor -- on American government, how much sense does it make to take aboard huge new difficulties as you purport to solve old ones? How about your critics? Do they need more ammunition -- rhetorical variety -- than they had anyway? Do they merit more than mere "respect" (as Obama put it) for a "point of view" being shut down? Or would that be more than "transformational," "post-partisan," politics truly demands?

The stem cell research order, for all that we saw it coming, joins the already long and growing list of fears about Obama's goals and operational style. Still, you learn who the "ideologues" are: people who don't see things the way their new president does.

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About The Author
Bill Murchison is a senior columns writer for The Dallas Morning News and author of There's More to Life Than Politics.
 
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Will science trump ideology in AGW laws?
So Obama thinks science should trump ideology, we'll see how well that statement holds up when Al Gore's fantasy religion Anthropogenic Global Warming comes up for a vote in Congress.
If anybody has noticed, it's getting colder, not warmer, the average Joe may not know much about DNA and stem cells, but he does know how much his heating bill is, and it ain't going down.

Reset Button
Hillary took a "reset button" to Russia. Too bad they didn't know how to translate it into Russian. This administration is a circus.

I hope the clown used his teleprompters
Obama is a bumbling fool who makes Bush sound eloquent unless he brings his teleprompters. I hear he has them where ever he goes. I am so convinced of his stupidity, that I googled "Obama University Grades". No surprise that Team Obama have not released his university transcripts. He should really go on a four year holiday so the US can recover from his 2 months of incompetence. Heaven spare us from this clown.

Above his pay grade
Apparently not. So, his pseudo humble response to Rick Warren in the Saddleback symposium was a lie. He said the question of when life begins is above his pay grade. Yet, he apparently thinks it's within his pay grade to authorize the destruction of human life in the embryonic stage. So either he lied about the answer to Warren's question being "above his pay grade" or he decided not to err on the side of caution and support of human life. Either way, he's a phone and a liar. He is certainly not the President of "all the people" as he said. Another lie. He's just a politician...you Obamabots should have listened to Jeremiah Wright...the man who "was like a father" to Obama, or a favorite uncle. Liar.

It is very telling
that republicans talk about "science" as if it is some sort of abstraction and they talk about its pursuit as if it is a fools errand. We've heard it before "science is just the devil tryin' to trick ya". You want to live your life by your modern interpretation of biblical law, no one is stopping you. Just don't expect Obama to allow Bush's over zealous Christian Proclamations to remain the public policy of a Great Nation founded on the separation of Church and State.

Stem Cell
We are presently going to be forced to support the research that Obama promised the pro-aborts concerning embryonic stem cells.

1984 is where these fools are headed and they get there through the double talk and double think that took place in the book Farenheit 451. Funny how the liberals touted that book to be about big government losing morals and of course to them they pointed to the conservativers as the ones who would bring that big government on us.

In reality it is the liberal/socialists/nazis that rule our govt now that will bring us the full day of the big brother government ruling our daily lives.

God help us, and may all the planes they fly in crash on take off.

Augustine
Thank you! As a long time reader of mild science fiction and a republican I have always found the liberals to be more like big brother. I'm glad someone else does. You have made my day.

An embryo is not a person
A multi-cellular bit of protoplasm is not a person. It is not a human being, nor does an embryo "contain" (?) human life. It is a living, growing entity, but it is not a person. You are trying to play word games to prove that an embryo is a category of people endowed with rights because your religion has given you this cuckoo idea. Scientists do not agree with you. When evangelicals cite that one textbook line over and over again, it just makes you look dishonest and desperate.

An embryo is not a person, and therefore, in reason and in law, it does not have rights. It simply does not matter how many embryos are destroyed in the process. There is no rights violation going on when a clump of cells is divvied up. There are no ethical implications to it and therefore no imperative to stop it or put limits on it. As I have said, your religion has made you irrational. You are acting emotionally on this issue. Everyone outside of your bubble of delusion can clearly see that you are being irrational. If you would stop with the hysterics and allow yourself to think clearly for a moment outside the brimstone-lined box which your religion has placed around you, you would see that an embryo is clearly not a person, and you are violating others' rights when you use government force to stop this research.

Wendy:
To me, it is a violation of others' rights to use government force to require me to participate in FUNDING this research, which is what takes place when my tax dollars are used for this purpose.

Bush did nothing to stop this research. The research was not banned...the only thing banned was using tax dollars (public funds) to facilitate the further destruction of human embryos.(I hope you will agree that these are "human" embryos, since they are created using "human" ovum and "human" sperm.)

Certainly, I have the right to believe that a human embryo is a person, just as I have a right to believe in God, and to practice my religion. You have the right to believe otherwise; you even have the right to be insulting, mocking, and disrespectful in making your argument.

President Bush did not make it illegal for individuals to contribute to embryonic stem cell research. It is, however, illegal to not pay taxes, in an effort to avoid participating in the destruction of human embryos.

Who is bullying whom?

Wendy
I urge you to read "The unaborted socrates" by peter kreeft. It shows that an embryo IS a human being, through logic.

"Everyone outside of your bubble of delusion can clearly see that you are being irrational. If you would stop with the hysterics and allow yourself to think clearly for a moment outside the brimstone-lined box which your religion has placed around you, you would see that an embryo is clearly not a person"

Ignoring the multitude of ad-hominim's in what you said, you did not give a single proof that the embryo is not human. If it is not human at conception, then when it it human. Birth? Well, thats just a simple change in location. Viability? Viability is a subjective term, dependent on outside conditions. Humannes is objective, there must be a set point of beging for humanness.

You also insulted religon alot, and used the fact that many Christans are pro-life as "proof" that abortion is false. I guess that would also apply to the face that many Christans are against stealing, and murder, and tourture is "proof" that those things are right to do? Just because we've been shown the answer does not mean the answer is false...

Dan
"If anybody has noticed, it's getting colder, not warmer, the average Joe may not know much about DNA and stem cells, but he does know how much his heating bill is, and it ain't going down."

The stupid, it burns. Dan, it may be colder in your part of the world right now, but the polar ice caps are melting at an alarming rate. Just because global warming is happening does not mean that it still will not get colder in some parts of the world sometimes, as anyone with any understanding of weather or common sense knows.

Kathy
Unfortunately, Kathy, we have never lived in a country where we get to directly decide where our personal taxes go. I don't support the war, but that doesn't mean the government doesn't have a right to use my tax money to pay for it. Do you believe that every tax-payer should get to personally decide which parts of the government their money goes to?

Dan:
I find it hard to believe that any one generation can have an "understanding" or "common sense" about global climate trends.

Especially given the relatively minute window of time that mankind has been able to record and measure global climate conditions.

Why so quick with the "stupid" label? I don't think "stupid" is anywhere near as rampant as "arrogant."

Chris:
I don't believe that every tax-payer should get to personally decide which parts of government their money goes to. But on this particular issue (embryonic stem cell research), I think federal funding is not appropriate. I do not think that this should be an issue on the federal agenda.

The war in Iraq/Afghanistan, as part of the war against international terrorism, is a matter of national security, which I believe is within the realm of the federal government.

National security is an issue that should be on the federal agenda. That is one of the primary purposes of federal government.


Ethics

I've always thought that this whole debate is backwards. An embryo is, scientifically speaking, a living organism that is going to become a human. But does that automatically mean it is human in an ethical sense? I don't think so. At that stage, it has no sense of either logic or emotion. Its simply not a complex enough organism to be considered on the same plane as a born human being. Logically, killing an embryo is not anywhere near equatable with killing a human being who is capable of reasoning and emotion. On an ethical level, an embryo is not "human." I suppose you could argue that the ethics lie in the potential of what the embryo could be, rather than what it currently is--but what about the potential that embryo has to save the life of a born, complete human being, with a family and friends and a real life? And isn't saving that life more ethical than the hypothetical and not-yet-begun life of the embryo?

Kathy
I'm not saying I understand everything about the complexities of global warming or weather in general. But I do think most people know enough to realize that Dan's argument--that global warming can't possible be happening because it is getting colder where he is--is a fallacious, and, yes, stupid argument. I'm sorry for the harsh language, but it is what it is.

You raise a good point about the tax issue. However, I would argue that the health of its citizens should also be a concern for the government, though perhaps not a primary purpose. I would also argue that the war in Iraq, as opposed to the justified war in Afghanistan, had almost nothing to do with national security, but that's for another thread.

Chris:
Well said. I believe that an embryo is human, in an ethical sense, regardless of its intellectual complexity or capacity. Would you agree that a born human being with limited intellectual capacity (someone with an IQ less than the norm) still has dignity and the right to life?

If that is true, why would we deny the rights of an embryo, only because it has not yet attained the intellectual capacity that we have? How can we justify snuffing out that opportunity?

How can an embryo (a non-existent human being) have the potential to save a life of a born individual? The very idea that an embryo has such potential implies that it lives.

Chris, we are having this conversation, which indicates that there is a "there" there. I truly appreciate your thoughtfulness on this issue.

Chris
Be careful here:

"Logically, killing an embryo is not anywhere near equatable with killing a human being who is capable of reasoning and emotion."

If one must be capable of reasoning to be a person, then the mentally retarded are not persons either. Is it okay to kill them, too?

Furthermore, since all the treatments (over 70 now) have come from adult stem cells, there is no need to use embryos. If fetal stem cells are really necessary for advancements in this area, they can easily be culled from umbilical cord blood after delivery.

Wendy, yes, most people that oppose embryonic stem cell research are religious, but not all. Michael Savage, who is a conservative but not religious, opposes it vociferously. He believes that such a callous regard for human life is what lead to Nazi medical experiments. Your religious bigotry is blinding you.

Kathy
Thanks, Kathy, and I apologize again for my earlier harshness. I do think there are many difference between a handicapped child and an embryo--while a handicapped child has less intellectual capacity than most, she or he still has some. A child, no matter the IQ or emotional intelligence, is a much more complex being than an embryo, and is clearly a human being in an ethical sense.

As for your third paragraph, I think you misunderstood me. I am talking about the potential of that embryo to be used for stem-cell research, which could save lives.

Thank you for politely engaging me in this debate. I understand and respect your belief that killing an embryo is wrong, though I don't agree with it. I also have very mixed views on abortion, so I can see why this issue is so controversial.

oops
That should read callous disregard for life.

Chris
Why should the health of citizens be a concern of the federal government? I know it's a very nice sentiment, but where is that in the founding documents of our system of government?

Are we not (as individuals) capable of attending to our own health, prosperity, relationships, and pursuit of happiness?

Our federal government should attend to national security - defense, foreign diplomacy, and international commerce. Other than that, state governments should be in charge.


Andrea
See my last post where I compared a mentally retarded child to an embryo. There are many, many differences, including the fact that the mentally retarded do have much more reasoning skills than a few-celled organism does. There are probably a thousand more significant differences, but I don't think I need to go into all of them.

As for the no need thing, maybe you're right. I'm honestly not educated enough about this subject to say. But I am wondering why this issue is being pushed if there really is no need. What would they gain?

Also, Michael Savage? The racist who believes that autistic kids are just faking it? I wouldn't quote him in a debate if I were you. I also think it is the height of insensitivity to compare the Holocaust to the elimination of few-celled organisms. I can understand believing that killing embryos is wrong, but I can not fathom how some can believe it is just as wrong as murdering born human beings.

Also...
I said capable of reason AND emotion. Anyone who has ever met a mentally retarded person knows that they are incredibly capable of emotion. And again, they also possess SOME reasoning skills, but not enough to survive on their own.

Kathy
The health of its citizens should be a concern on the government because if the citizens are unhealthy, the country will suffer. I am not saying it is a necessity, but the countries that have made this a higher priority have prospered because of it.

Chris:
I would be very interested to know what countries have prospered by intervening in the health care of their citizens.

Which of the countries with nationalized healthcare are prospering, and please define what you mean by "prospering."

Chris
Sorry, I typed my post before your response was up. I know liberals don't like it when conservatives use "slippery slope" arguments, but history shows us that one thing can lead to another when basic values change. Most of the arguments for ESC research sound a lot like pragmatism rather than principle: the end justifies the means.

So, I take it you don't like Savage? :-) I think he's great and, as a biologist with earned PhD's, he has some understanding of the scientific issues surrounding stem cell research. I am an OB/GYN nurse practitioner with a Master's Degree from an Ivy League school, so I don't fit the liberal stereotype of a redneck right-winger either.

To answer your question about why embryonic stem cell research is being pushed when not fruitful or necessary, I believe it is precisely because it has been politicized. Obama is making an ideological point himself by doing this...he's the anti-Bush.

Nathan wrote this:
"Humannes is objective, there must be a set point of beging for humanness"

The "set point" has been long established and is not subjective at all. The entire medical/scientific community have defined the "set point" as first, ovulation (i.e., the monthly release of a woman's egg) must occur. Then, the egg must be fertilized. Fertilization describes the process by which a single sperm gradually penetrates the layers of an egg to form a new cell ("zygote"). This usually occurs in the fallopian tubes and can take up to 24 hours. There is only a short window during which an egg can be fertilized. If fertilization does not occur during that time, the egg dissolves and then hormonal changes trigger menstruation; however, if fertilization does occur, the zygote divides and differentiates into a "preembryo" while being carried down the fallopian tube toward the uterus. Implantation of the preembryo in the uterine lining begins about five days after fertilization. Implantation can be completed as early as eight days or as late as 18 days after fertilization, but usually takes about 14 days. Between one-third and one-half of all fertilized eggs never fully implant. A pregnancy is considered to be established only after implantation is complete.




The Paulbot perspective
--
The single most prominent honest-to-Mises American conservative in the 2008 race for the Republican Party presidential noination was Ron Paul.

Anybody got any arguments about that?

The only guy to predict - and, more importantly, TALK about - the present economic horror when there was still time to do something effective about it.

Remember how you Townhall.com @ssholes kept calling him a "kook" and hating him for his "isolationist" focus on all those U.S. troops deployed in every corner of the world, wasting America's substance on maintaining an empire and getting us into every wog-&-wunkus Animal Farm pigfest on the planet?

Well, Dr. Paul's an OB/GYN guy. Remember that, too?

He's also unremittingly "pro-life." Meaning anti-abortion.

I'm not, but I can still get along with him. We "agree to disagree" on that point like sane, civilized men.

Now, what's Ron Paul's policy recommendation on embryonic stem cells?


Dr. Paul observes that there are thousands of ectopic pregnancies (primarily Fallopian tubal) that have to be surgically removed every year.

These necessarily remove living embryos that CANNOT be salvaged.

They go into a jar, are taken down to the path lab, examined, and thrown away.

Thrown away.

Dr. Paul - being a doctor - observes that harvesting THESE embryos for stem cell research cannot be said to "kill" anything or anybody, even under the most rabidly "social" pseudoconservative interpretation of what is or isn't human life.

Okay, so why doesn't our Moolie Messiah just announce that these removed ectopic embryos are the stuff from which these research programs can now proceed?

Because he's a lawyer, a National Socialist, and extremely stupid.

What's YOUR excuse?

--

Chris - Boy, you are SCAREY!
--
Conceiving of government as people-rancher, Chris writes:

"The health of its citizens should be a concern on the government because if the citizens are unhealthy, the country will suffer. I am not saying it is a necessity, but the countries that have made this a higher priority have prospered because of it."


Gawd, that's frightening.

You see the government "Malevolent Jobholder" (Mencken) as the husbandman of America's stock of domesticated human farm animals.

Do you realize what the hell your perpective really reveals about you?

See http://patrioticactivist.com/2008/12/01/stefan-molyneux-on -the-illusion-of-freedom/





=====
"Supposedly, governments were invented to make human life easier and safer. But governments always end up enslaving humanity. That which we create to 'serve' us ends up ruling us. ... The earliest Egyptian and Chinese empires were, in reality, human farms, where people were hunted, captured, domesticated, and owned - like any other form of livestock."

-- Stefan Molyneux

Christ writes
An embryo is, scientifically speaking, a living organism that is going to become a human. But does that automatically mean it is human in an ethical sense? I don't think so. At that stage, it has no sense of either logic or emotion.

Sez I: Neither do you when you're in deep sleep, in a coma, or merely unconscious. Does that make you less human?

Our humanity isn't defined by our ability to relate to our surroundings. That embryo IS human because his DNA defines him as such. If there were no humanity present, why then the 'need' to experiment on these tiniest of human beings? Why the 'need' for abortion, if 'that' which sleeps in his mother's womb is not human? Do we justify human experimentation solely on the basis of whether or not the subject has a face? It would seem so!

All ESC research is, is an attempt to neutralize abortion and make it sound as though the initial evil of taking a life is somehow mitigated by using the 'scraps' to help other life. Unfortunately, there is not one record of ESC ever having helped anyone.

Kathy ad SJ Doc.
I don't want to get into a debate over whether or not the European or Canadian health care system is better than ours or not, because usually those devolve into "My Canadian friend says it is" vs. "My three European friends say it sucks," etc. So I'm not going to get into this one, because there is plenty of evidence for both sides and it will just take forever. I hope you don't mind me backing out of this one.

SJ Doc, I don't see how providing basic health services to people is scary. Many are saying that Obama's health care plan is simply designed to control what treatment we get, but the truth is that private health care will still be an option for those that don't want government health care.

Andrea
"Chris
Sorry, I typed my post before your response was up. I know liberals don't like it when conservatives use "slippery slope" arguments, but history shows us that one thing can lead to another when basic values change. Most of the arguments for ESC research sound a lot like pragmatism rather than principle: the end justifies the means."

I see what you mean, but I just can't bring myself to care about terminating the life of an organism smaller than the period at the end of this sentence, even if it could later go on to be a complete person. I just can't wrap my brain around that.

"So, I take it you don't like Savage?"

I tend to not like racists and victim-blamers, so no. And I don't know how a man with a PhD could possible belief that autistic kids have no real medical problem.

I get your point about the ideology, though. This motion could be used to further the case for abortion, so I get the "slippery slope" thing.

Aliveinhim
"Christ writes?" LOL. I'm assuming this is a mistype and not a joke that I'm just not getting?


"Sez I: Neither do you when you're in deep sleep, in a coma, or merely unconscious."

Yes, I do still have those abilities under those states. They are just not currently being used.


MSM propoganda/ Wendy
In today's news paper an editorial cartoon portrayed George Bush's approach to science as flat earth and contrasted it to Obama's whole earth view.

What advances were made because Bush LIMITED the number of embryos? Did he spur research because the funds were not all put into embryonic stem cell research. Or was Bush and most conservatives flat earthers?

Wendy, when a human embryo can become something other than a human I'll accept your point. It is though as others have said a matter of having my money fund this research or abortions. I vote NO.


Chris - On the ''Malevolent Jobholder''
--
...as the veterinary surgeon for the government's human farm animals, Chris writes:

"I don't see how providing basic health services to people is scary."


Chris, you're talking about the GOVERNMENT doing that "providing."

And your point of argument is based upon the notion that government is supposed to take care of us 'Murricans on account of our "society" owns us and the elected elite represent "society" in taking responsibility for our health and well-being.

Argh.

And you don't see how this approach to the subject isn't scary as all hell.

Hoo, boy.

Canadian Stefan Molyneax defines government as "a conceptual description for a group of people who claim and possess the moral right to initiate the use of violence against others within a specific geographical area."

Does that leave out anything important? Elected, appointed, anointed, or just usurpatory, does that fail to describe what's the real difference between the officers of government and us private citizens?

Violence. They're allowed to use it on us. We're not allowed to retaliate.



And you want these bastiches "providing basic health services to people," Chris?

Are you out of your friggin' mind?

Bad enough right now, when a government bureaucrat can audit your tax returns.

You want 'em gloving up and sticking a finger or two up your butt twice a year?


(( Oops! Bad example. Been flying the friendly skies lately? ))

--

Le Sigh
SJ Doc, I'm not interested in your paranoid, anarchist beliefs or your judgmental attitude. If you would like to have a civil debate, let me know, but until then, I'm going to ignore you.

Chris - On humorlessness
--
Whines Chris:

"I'm not interested in your paranoid, anarchist beliefs or your judgmental attitude. If you would like to have a civil debate, let me know, but until then, I'm going to ignore you."


Tsk. The exchange has been quite civil. On my part, there has been the use of a legitimate tactic of debate: reductio ad absurdem.

( see http://www.iep.utm.edu/r/reductio.htm )

I consider insupportable your assumption that civil government (Mencken's "Malevolent Jobholder," also known as "Officer Friendly") is the agency appropriate for maintaining the health and treating the medical ills of the American citizen.

Moreover, I argue that your attitude in this wise implicitly (and without apparent reasoned consideration) assumes said American citizen to be the PROPERTY of his government rather than the source of sovereignity in our republic.

And do I get from you any sort of reasoned response?

Or even a giggle about how our Transportation Security Administration strip-searches random little old ladies with names like "Johannson" and "O'Brien" at our airports, performing body cavity pokes and prods hither and yon with glorious ineffectiveness?

Nope.

There's serious and then there's stupid.

Where are you, Chris?





=====
"Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary."

-- H.L. Mencken
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