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Wednesday, January 28, 2009
Bill Murchison :: Townhall.com Columnist
God And Mr. Darwin
by Bill Murchison
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As Charles Darwin's 200th birthday (Feb. 12) looms, evidence mounts: No way is all the furor over the teaching of evolution going to disappear, or even abate. Not in our own time, brothers and sisters.

A Gallup Poll of June 2007 found Americans equally divided as to whether they believe or disbelieve Darwin's theory of evolution. Just a month ago, another poll showed belief in the devil running stronger among Americans than belief in the teachings of Darwin, who, to some opponents, is himself a sulfurous figure in red tights.

Then there's the foofaraw over the Texas state education board's narrow failure last week to preserve a 20-year-old rule requiring classroom exposure of the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution. Champagne and cake passed among the proponents of Darwinism. The New York Times declared, charmingly, that, "scientifically illiterate boards of education should leave the curriculum to educators and scientists "

Proponents of the idea that an "intelligent design" informs the universe breathed more easily when the board voted to allow arguments having to do with the "sufficiency or insufficiency" of gaps or contradictions in the fossil record. The Times wondered, "how that differs from the old language of 'strengths and weaknesses.'" And so on. And so on .

What we all intuit about the debate, to the degree it really is one, rather than a shouting contest, is what our Victorian forbears intuited: that evolution is less about fossil records and genetic adaptations than it is about the Lord God Almighty. It's the great religious controversy of our times: Did He or didn't He? Because if He did, major consequences ensue; if not, same story.

"With Darwin," a columnist in Britain's Daily Telegraph observes, "secularization and atheism began to have momentum." The pushback, which began immediately, goes on to the present day, immortalized, in American history at least, by the Scopes Trial in 1925, and by the invigorating movie based on the play about the trial, "Inherit the Wind," starring Spencer Tracy and Frederic March.

Neither the trial nor the movie/play settled anything. How could they have? The two camps -- biblical and Darwinian -- merely bellowed past each other. The judicious judgment of John Henry Cardinal Newman that Darwinism "may simply be suggesting a large idea of divine providence and skill" left too much ambiguity to suit most. Ambiguity, when it comes to evolution, is a thing many people dislike strongly. On go the furor and the anguish.

It's hard, with it all, to see why the scientific types cling so feverishly to the creed -- alien to the whole of civilization, prior to the 19th century -- that God couldn't have dealt the cards originally. Well -- they respond -- it's because there's no evidence to show it. Possibly not. There is something else, though: a thing called common sense. Everything here and all around us just happened, without the intervention of a Designer? Isn't that just a little improbable?

Whittaker Chambers, observing his baby daughter's ear one day, sensed the argument for creation. Through volumes of fossil evidence his mind hacked with a dazzling blade. "No God" made no sense. I have thought the same thing about the body's digestive faculties. It all just -- you know -- happened? Tell me another one.

How you introduce God to classrooms armored in the secularism of the past century -- with pedagogues and politicians wary of breaking down some mythological "wall" between church and state -- is another matter entirely, one on which I don't expect to see us make much progress in our present mood.

So what happens now? "God knows" could be a cop-out -- or a scintillating revelation. Maybe we just leave the Darwinian theory to lie there and gather appreciation, or the reverse, as we await a Final Word. A God capable of making the world (assuming, as I do, that He did so) would seem capable of prying open fast-shut eyes that they might see His handiwork, and, seeing, come to know how it all happened.

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Bill Murchison is a senior columns writer for The Dallas Morning News and author of There's More to Life Than Politics.
 
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Oy
""No God" made no sense. I have thought the same thing about the body's digestive faculties. It all just -- you know -- happened? Tell me another one."

So who created God, then? And who created that guy? And so on and so on until we die and even after that is there is an afterlife.

The thing is, neither the concept of an eternal God or the Big Bang can ever make anything resembling "sense" to our limited brains. The concept of eternal life confuses and scares me just as much as the concept of a permanent death.

With that in mind, both sides of this culture war need to realize that they are both operating from a place of faith, at least to some extent.

Camanintx
"If life is best evidence of an intelligent designer, then why have 99% of the species that have ever lived gone extinct? "

And if the universe is so finely-tuned for life, why is the vast majority of it so barren and lifeless?

Looking at the human ear and saying 'must have been God' is no different to a tribesman looking at an eclipse and saying 'a dragon is eating the sun!'. In both cases it's based on ignorance.

camanintx
Don't forget the tailbone.

Bill Murchison writes:
Whittaker Chambers, observing his baby daughter's ear one day, sensed the argument for creation. Through volumes of fossil evidence his mind hacked with a dazzling blade. "No God" made no sense. I have thought the same thing about the body's digestive faculties. It all just -- you know -- happened? Tell me another one.
-----------------------------------------------------
If one is going to point to the human body as evidence of a intelligent designer, then one would first have to explain the intelligence of ectopic pregnancies, human male's nipples, and the recurrent laryngeal nerve. If life is best evidence of an intelligent designer, then why have 99% of the species that have ever lived gone extinct?

MikeH
It is not that you offended me but that you disappointed me. Focusing on the use of the word "valid" in two different statements and considering that an example of disingenuousness is a bit picayune, wouldn't you say?

I think under other circumstances one would have been able to discern the meanings in each of those statements and not contrast them as conflicting with one another in their ideas.

Chuck
"My understanding of Intelligent Design is that it is a study of signs of intelligence in the phenomenum of the formation of natural systems.

OK?"

That is OK. I'll write more about this tomorrow, but this is where I actually really admire Michael Behe. Its funny that you reference Dembski in another post because you kept using the word "improbable." I thought you might have read his stuff. But he's not a biologist and has, from what I've read, little knowledge of current biological understanding. Hopefully we can continue this some more tomorrow.

Chuck
"Oh for crying out loud.

Mike, perhaps that's the problem. You thought I was arguing and I thought you were just trying to have a conversation."

I didn't mean arguments in the pejorative sense. I'm sorry if I offended you, it certainly was not my intent. I enjoy argument and debate and discussion and opposing views. If I didn't respect you I wouldn't bother responding to you. There are a lot of TH poster both conservative and liberal that I stay away from. I've enjoyed our discussions.


Chapter 38
is particularly relevant to the dialogs thus far.

RepAt
Why don't you just read one of their contributions to the debate?

I might suggest William Dembski's "The Design Revolution". Although its not for the fainthearted or intellectually lazy, he answers most of the more difficult questions about ID, raised by the opponents and/or critics.

Larry
A question about your ID scientists. Do any of them have any evidence to support their support? Or are they just filling in the gaps that science hasn't yet? It doesn't matter how educated a supporter of ID is if they still have no verifiable evidence.

Intelligent Design
Noted a post put up here stating there was no evidence for intelligent design. There are hundreds of scientist who are speaking out at present who would disagree with you! A few would be: Jonathan Wells,PHD,PHD. Graduated from UC Berkley w/a degree in geology and physics and a minor in biology, Yale Graduate School w/a Doctorate in religious studies, doctorate from Berkley in molecular and cell biology, post-doctoral research biologist, and is currently a senior fellow at the Discovery institute's Center for Science and Culture. Stephen C.Meyer,PHD. degrees in physics and geology,Master's in the history and philosophy of science at Cambridge Univ. in England, Doctorate from Cambridge analyzing the scientific and methodological issues in origin of life biology. Others in these fields who believe in a theistic origin are: Wm. Dembski, J.P.Moreland,Michael J.Behe,and hundreds of others who have had the courage to speak out in the face of censure by their peers.
In the field of cosmology:Wm.Lane Craig,PHD, PHD.
In physics: Robin Collins, PHD-read about the anthropic principle in our universe.
In astronomy: Guillermo Gonzalez,PHD. Robert Jastrow. See also Peter Ward and Donald Brownlee.
I suggest you start by determining to honestly and objectively examine the evidence that's out there, ask, sincerely ask God to show Himself to you. Then see what happens. If you are intellectually honest w/yourself I know-know you will abandon naturalism. I believe in a Creator God, I don't have enough faith to believe in evolution.

MikeH
My understanding of Intelligent Design is that it is a study of signs of intelligence in the phenomenum of the formation of natural systems.

OK?

MikeH
Oh for crying out loud.

Mike, perhaps that's the problem. You thought I was arguing and I thought you were just trying to have a conversation.

heliocentrism
Up until about 2400 years ago, it was common sense that the sun spun around the earth.

Chuck
"Oh? And why is that? What evidences can you present that I am being anything but honest and seeking truth alone in my discussion?"

Well...
Chuck at 2:45PM on Jan 30:
"...do you really think that those who remain unconvinced of the scientific validity of the Theory of Evolution are proposing that one deny the validity of science in general?"

Chuck at 5:15PM on Jan 30:
"...I'm aware that it is a valid "theory" as far as validity of scientific theories are considered..."

And that's within the span of 3 hours. What might I find if I looked at the past few days?

"Now who's being disingenuous? Do you even know what ID is?"

I do know what ID is. Its nothing. Its whatever the user of the term wants it to be. For some it means young earth creationism, for others, its just a bag of objections to gaps (real or perceived) in evolution.

But if I'm wrong, here is you chance to tell me what it is, or at least what you mean by the term. Oh, and your chance to present some evidence for ID.

"MikeH, I'm 57 years old. Do you actually think I've come to this controversy yesterday?

Don't talk down to me."

First off, I don't exactly know how I was talking down to you. Second, age means nothing to me except for respect for you as a person. Your arguments must stand on their own merits.

MikeH
"I find it a bit disingenuous for you to try and position yourself as an honest independent broker in this matter"

Oh? And why is that? What evidences can you present that I am being anything but honest and seeking truth alone in my discussion?

"What would it take to convince you that evolutionary theory is valid?"

Oh, I'm aware that it is a valid "theory" as far as validity of scientific theories are considered; it's the TRUTH of it I question.

"...and nothing supporting ID"

Now who's being disingenuous? Do you even know what ID is?

MikeH, I'm 57 years old. Do you actually think I've come to this controversy yesterday?

Don't talk down to me.

Chuck
"You seem to be forgetting that I'm the audience. I'm one of those that either side is supposed to convince and the Evolutionary side has so far not convinced me that their theory is sufficient to explain the causes of the phenomena we see around us everyday."

I find it a bit disingenuous for you to try and position yourself as an honest, independent broker in this matter. But just for fun, what would it take to convince you that evolutionary theory is valid? What in your studies of the matter seems insufficient to you?

"The IDers' arguments seem to me to hold together much more convincingly than the TOEers, so what am I supposed to do? Believe in Evolution because you do?"

Science isn't based on common sense or intuition. It is based on evidence. Right now there are mounds and mounds of evidence supporting evolutionary theory, and nothing supporting ID. You don't have to believe it because I believe it. You don't have to "believe" it at all. Just look at the evidence.

MikeH
"Also, I would like to know if these "holes" are in the theory or in your understanding of scientific knowledge. Would you offer an example of one of these "holes?" Also, if you can, show how ID explains the gap that evolution cannot."

You seem to be forgetting that I'm the audience. I'm one of those that either side is supposed to convince and the Evolutionary side has so far not convinced me that their theory is sufficient to explain the causes of the phenomena we see around us everyday. The IDers' arguments seem to me to hold together much more convincingly than the TOEers, so what am I supposed to do? Believe in Evolution because you do?

My mind doesn't work that way, Mike.

MikeH
"Its hardly a smokescreen, it is a necessary component of any scientific hypothesis and theory."

Perhaps, but to the defenders of Evolution, particularly those on TH, it seems to be the only one.

AndyR
"It seems it is YOU defining success as 'convincing me'. Hardly a tricky thing to pull off as you evidently don't even know the difference between 'falsifiable' and 'has been proved false'."

How you conclude that I'll not bother trying to figure out as it is of little concern to me what your personal opinion of me is, but for me, I have learned long ago to make my own mind up about things rather than to wait until some "expert" has pronounced a thing true or not.

As far as I am concerned, success, in this matter, consists of getting yourself heard by the audience you wish to hear it and I'd say the proponents have been wildly successful to the point that the entire Darwinist establishment has arrayed itself against it. They continue to publish their theses and enjoy wide readership of their ideas.

As I say, it is only a matter of time.

AndyR
"I'm going to take a guess that in the meantime you're going to keep going to the doctor when you're sick, keep flying in aeroplanes, keep using computers etc, right?"

Andy, seriously, do you really think that those who remain unconvinced of the scientific validity of the Theory of Evolution are proposing that one deny the validity of science in general?

If so, I can unuderstand why you are threatend by ID.

Chuck
"Interestingly, an increasing number of accredited scientists are growing dissatisfied with the current theories lack of cohesion in explaining scientific phenomenum and are abandoning blanket support for the Theory as an explanation for biological diversity."

You'll have to be a bit more specific.

"The proponents are holding on to the "falsifiability" defense as a smoke screen to distract attention to the numerous holes they have been unable to fill in that 150+ years."

Its hardly a smokescreen, it is a necessary component of any scientific hypothesis and theory.

Also, I would like to know if these "holes" are in the theory or in your understanding of scientific knowledge. Would you offer an example of one of these "holes?" Also, if you can, show how ID explains the gap that evolution cannot.

Chuck
"I have no idea how you are defining "success" unless you mean "in convincing me". "

How's about presenting any kind of theory, any testable claims, any papers submitted for peer-review? If not managing any of these isn't failure, what is? It hasn't even succeded in its own aims of getting accepted in schools in even the smallest of ways.

It seems it is YOU defining success as 'convincing me'. Hardly a tricky thing to pull off as you evidently don't even know the difference between 'falsifiable' and 'has been proved false'.

Chuck
"It's only a matter of time, MikeH, until the whole edifice collapses of its own illogical weight"

I'm going to take a guess that in the meantime you're going to keep going to the doctor when you're sick, keep flying in aeroplanes, keep using computers etc, right?

BTW, self-interested parties have been predicting this collapse for the past 150 years or so. It's looking even less likely now than it did then. Keep waiting, just like the flat-earthers, the moon hoaxers, the holocaust deniers, the Kennedy conspiricists. Maybe that evidence will turn up somewhere...

MikeH
Interestingly, an increasing number of accredited scientists are growing dissatisfied with the current theories lack of cohesion in explaining scientific phenomenum and are abandoning blanket support for the Theory as an explanation for biological diversity.

The proponents are holding on to the "falsifiability" defense as a smoke screen to distract attention to the numerous holes they have been unable to fill in that 150+ years.

It's only a matter of time, MikeH, until the whole edifice collapses of its own illogical weight and only those "scientists" with a prior committment to scientific naturalism will be defending it.

Chuck
AndyR:
"Evolution IS falsifiable..."

Chuck:
"Yes, we knew that a long time ago."

Yes we did. However, in the 150+ years that evolution theory has been around, it has not been falsified.

AndyR
"Evolution IS falsifiable..."

Yes, we knew that a long time ago. That's what ID is all about.

It never claims to be "science" in the same comprehensive way Evolutionary theory does; answering all questions regarding biological diversity and development and inferring philosophical conclusions accordingly. It merely proposes to deminstrate, as I said, that the current model of biological development theory espoused by the Theory of Evolution is...scientifically...improbable!

Chuck
"If its thesis is correct, then neither should Evolutionary theory."

Falsifiable means that there are ways that one could hyperthetically prove it to be wrong. For a famous example, if one found bunny rabbit bones among dinosaur fossils.

Evolution IS falsifiable, and it stands up to attempts to falsify it. Furthermore, evolution DOES make testable hypotheses and predictions. And Natural Selection is the best explanation we have that fits the evidence. Therefore it is science.

"If a theory is not allowed to be tested and examined in the light of scientific analysis..."

There are hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers on evolution - that means that each are tested and examined in the light of scientific analysis. Do you know how many peer-reviewed papers there are on ID? None.

MikeH
If its thesis is correct, then neither should Evolutionary theory.


Get it?

If a theory is not allowed to be tested and examined in the light of scientific analysis, then it cannot be falsified, can it? This resistance to ID is not science either, but rather politics.

Chuck
"It's claim is that, due to current scientific knowledge, evolution, as a working hypothesis seeking to explain the complexity and diversity of biological organisms, is improbable."

Right. "Intelligent Design," or creationism, is nothing more than a listing of the problems (real or perceived)of evolutionary theory.

It is not a scientific theory. It does not make testable hypotheses. It does not make predictions. It is not falsifiable. It doesn't offer an explanation of the evidence and observations of the living world. Therefore, it should not be taught in science classes.

AndyR
If I have read a more tendentious statement concerning this or any other subject, I am hard pressed to be able to recall it.

Perhaps you need to stop listening only to the Darwinist apologists.

I have no idea how you are defining "success" unless you mean "in convincing me".

Chuck
"It's claim is that, due to current scientific knowledge, evolution, as a working hypothesis seeking to explain the complexity and diversity of biological organisms, is improbable."

Unfortunately, every attempt the ID movement has made no attempt to actually justify such a claim. It has had as much success as the Flat Earth Movement and the Moon Hoaxers, and therefore has as much of a right to be taken seriously.

I've yet to see an ID-er who even understands the current scientific knowledge, let alone is able to actually critique it. The nearest they have to a front-person is Michael Behe, who says he accepts that man shares ancestors with apes.

Lon
"But today Intelligent Design is just the claim that evolution hasn't explained everything..."

No, it's complaint is much more serious than that.

It's claim is that, due to current scientific knowledge, evolution, as a working hypothesis seeking to explain the complexity and diversity of biological organisms, is improbable.

AndyR
Agreed, teach the best ideas until there's a better one, but never stop looking for others until one is absolutely certain.

RePat
That's true, there may be more possibilities. So we go with the one that is best supported by the evidence, pending new evidence. That's how science works, right?

Likewise, it's possible that someone, some day, will come up with evidence that the moon landings were faked. However, pending such an unlikely discovery, we teach that man landed on the moon.

AndyR / Richard
"I can only see three possibilities – chance processes, intelligent design, or magic"
"There is a fourth possibility - evolution."

There are an infinite number of possibilities. The fact that science has not yet determined any more answers (or a new religion has not developed a new creation theory) does not mean there aren't answers out there.. That finite closed minded attitude is a big part of why we don't yet know for sure.

Richard
"I can only see three possibilities – chance processes, intelligent design, or magic."

There is a fourth possibility - evolution. And that is the possibility that is actually supported by evidence. Evolution is neither chance, nor ID, nor magic.

Hope this helps.

Creationism & Atheism - the Devil's Lies
Seemingly no place is made for those of us who both understand that evolution is a fact, of which there are many theories (including the several Darwin devised), and are believers in Christianity. I find literal interpretations of Genesis to be disingenuous at best -- and atheological at worst. The God of Intelligent Design is an idiotic boob and unworthy of anyone's belief (considering how much the human body is jury-rigged -- in such a way as you would expect to find if evolution did in fact occur). My experience is that creationist beliefs early in life are one of the primary drivers of atheistic beliefs later in life. After a while, people with sense have to believe the facts -- and if Christianity insists that creationism and Christianity are inseparable, then Christianity will continue to lose people. Those of us who had the sense to not listen to the devil's lies regarding literal (rather than spiritual) interpretations of Genesis and those of atheists who use the nonsense promulgated by too many so-called Christians have souls save in God's arms.

chuck
So your first claim was that intelligent design is primarily pushed by credentialed scientists. Now your claim is that it is snobbery to insist that the people teaching a subject by credentialed scientists.

I guess that captures the seriousness of Intelligent Design at this point.

I actually would like to see someone develop an actual theory of intelligent design. Then we could test it and see if there is anything to the view. There is no reason why God could not theoretically be part of science. He was for Leibniz, unfortunately Leibniz' science lost out for other reasons.

But today Intelligent Design is just the claim that evolution hasn't explained everything as if anyone thought it would by now.

A teensy bit harsh, steve?
"Other countries will soon stop issuing visas to Americans as they have no desire to be invaded by a horde of ignorant beasts. We truly are the laughing stock of the civilized world."

My favorite cartoon: Large American with camera lens sticking out a foot from his stomach that already sticks out a foot, wearing loud shorts in the British Museum at 12:30.

Attendant: The Magna Carta was signed in 1215.

'Merican: Darn! Missed it by 15 minutes.

Emma Clarke does the voice-overs for the London Underground. She also has a number of spoofs, my favorite of which is http://www.emmaclarke.com/media/7142/a-reminder-for-americ an-tourists.mp3

Regarding visas, many countries now follow a policy of reciprocation: You make our lives miserable, we'll make your lives miserable.

For this reason (plus the fact that the 'Mericans stamp my passport every time I enter the country, so I'm running out of space), I rarely use my US passport.

Get photographed, interviewed, fingerprinted and spend weeks getting a visa to enter Brasil (for example), or just waltz in using another passport?

Pay a fee of $130 to enter Chile? Or waltz in using another passport?

You figger it out. Sigh.

Amazing
Into the mind of human & woman. Where, why, when,what for. Who. (Always the Storm).
It is amazing how one small article can light such a candle, isn't it. I have read most of the comments posted here. To those of you who believe in Darwins theory of Evolution. The man himself wasn't sure of his theory prior to death. I learned it as a youngster, didn't change my view of creation. However to those who believe in a creator, I would say to you to study diligently what you believe. Many things you might think are truth are not truth. No axe to grind here, just a little wisdom. Study to show yourself approved. Remember, you cannot prove either. The world wants signs, always want signs. Look at what Jesus said. Study Him. You can't defend Yahweh, only He can do that and will. Be in peace, the world is in a great mess, caused by man and his hatred.
Live each day as if there will not be another. God (Yahweh) will do the rest. Bank on it.

God Man

What version would you like me to explain?
The Babylonia
The Egyptian
The Roman
The Greek
The Nazi
The soviet
The only thing interesting about evolution is that once you believe there is no god one will be inserted to take its place.
Nature hates a vacuum.

Pirate Rob
Apparently pretty hard, since you clearly don't understand it.

Man Beast?
How hard could evolution be to teach?

First we were mermaids.

Then we were monkeys.

Then we climbed down from the trees and became men.

Then we fled to the safety of the suburbs in Europe.

So easy even a cave man can teach it.

RepAt
If all we were was a brain, I'd agree with you.

Roy

Roy: well i may be nitpicking but if the disease is incurable she really doesn't need medicine,on the other hand if my wife was dying and the only way to get the medicine she needed to be cured would be to steal it.thats easy-i steal it.



Jen: Oh, you know what I meant. I’m glad the question wouldn’t have been a dilemma for you, but there were other posed scenarios too, but all with the same goal to let us kids think there are no right answers. And how we shouldn’t pass judgment on someone else’s decision. You know, the whole “I’m ok. You’re ok” psychobabble. We also talked (I kid you not) about “warm fuzzies” and “cold pricklies” and how the things people say can hurt our feelings.

Feelings Shmeelings! Yes, sometimes we aren’t always happy with things that happen in life – boo hoo! We all can’t make the team. We all can’t get straight A’s. And every feeling we have needn’t be validated.



Roy: by the way i went to school in the 70's and i don't remember them telling us there is no right or wrong.

Jen: Well, what’s your current world-view? I could probably tell you in 5 minutes whether you were a product of the “values free” education I am referring to.

My Bottom line: be happy with who you are unless you’re a jerk. And if you’re a jerk – change – don’t expect people to accept you that way!

I shouldn’t have to condone or celebrate your behavior simply b/c it’s how you feel.

Good Lord not again!
Both sides of this silly argument need to either pay more attention to Cardinal Newman or perhaps actually read the book. Darwin clearly thought he was describing an aspect of God's creation.

From the conclusion of Darwin's treatise "On the Origin of Species":

"To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator (that would be GOD, folks), that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual."


a
5:57 No, a, there would have to be an ideal, otherwise there is no "natural selection". Quite frankly you only made my argument. ..and some manner of "better" and "worse"...Not sure how it is that you make a difference between ideal and better. Better implies an ideal, and again there would have to be some understanding whether through a consciousness, or chemical encoding for a need to be more. However if there is not already a better, an ideal, something of a higher order the organism would have no source to draw. The organism has to have encoded within its nature something of a higher nature to "evolve" into. As for fruit flies, at what point is their DNA changing?

Insectman
I read your link and must say I am disappointed. The article starts by calling Darwin a racist then carries on with it's own extensive bigotry. It's clearly biased and offers no useful information to either side of the debate. You should really try harder next time.


MIKEH
5:28 you made my point. Think about it.

Theatre of the Absurd!
No posts for twenty minutes so I suspect this thread has run out of steam. I’ll affirm up front that I’m a Darwinist and an atheist. If [in these some 200 posts] the creationists and evolutionists hoped to sway the other they‘ve failed dismally. The competing camps have only made fools of themselves. The “intellectuals” of both camps [A from VA, etc.] ramble on about quantum theory and other complex fields…and while they may be eminently qualified this is just an inappropriate forum. The other camp is incapable of understanding such high minded principles [few mortals do] and furthermore they don’t give a “rats-sass”! Some creationist [Alive In Him, etc] try to compete on scientific grounds, and others mouth the same tired old religious shibboleths…and both make fools of themselves. Finally, there are the hopelessly outgunned [Diamond Z, Stan, etc.] who just sit in the corner like a spoiled child, and suck their thumb. They mouth a few insolent and irrelevant remarks, and also make a fool of themselves. Townhall is not a "furom". It's instead the classic Theatre of the Absurd!

Jim-Too

Chuck
"Most 5 year olds have already answered the "God" question. It's only Western "intellectual" adults, committed to Scientism, who seem to be having a problem with it."

Chuck, these 5 year olds lack the critical thinking skills of the western adults, these same 5 y/o also likely believe in Santa Clause. This is the kind of indoctrination that causes the dilemma we spoke of earlier with the scientists who struggle to rationalize their faith with scientific knowledge. I am looking into some of the individuals you pointed out and I plan to study their writings. Perhaps we can discuss these writings in more detail at a later date.

jen
well i may be nitpicking but if the disease is incurable she really doesn't need medicine,on the other hand if my wife was dying and the only way to get the medicine she needed to be cured would be to steal it.thats easy-i steal it.oh by the way i went to school in the 70's and i don't remember them telling us there is no right or wrong.

American's too stupid to travel
Other countries will soon stop issuing visas to Americans as they have no desire to be invaded by a horde of ignorant beasts. We truly are the laughing stock of the civilized world.

I am NOT some snake handler!!
I have seen hundreds of fossils and there are gaps in ALL of them which have yet to be filled. I want to see a full 500 million years' worth of gradual development within EACH species and classification of life form. It has yet to be seen

I used to take courses at the NY Museum of Natural History and it was one of my haunts as far back as age 9. I used to aggravate some of the visitors when I looked at the HUGE lung cavity of a T-Rex and opined that it HAD to be a relatively fast predator or else WHY need such lungpower if all dinos just galumphed along?

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Vampires Reflection

I think I am the poster you said was lying about how much evolution I was taught in school. I can only speak for my own experience, but I clearly remember spending an entire semester (probably in 5th grade) on Darwin and all the different types of man and how their brains and bodies evolved. Then we got the same evolution stuff a couple of years later in 7th grade.

I grew up in a small town in West Virginia and perhaps my experience was rare, but nonetheless that was my experience.

Not to change the subject but . . . The 70’s was a strange time. I also remember getting lots of what psychologists refer to as values free curriculum. We were given different moral dilemmas and asked what one should do (ie: your wife is dying of an incurable disease, but the only way to get the medicine she needs would be to steal it – what should you do?). The idea was to make sure we all learned that there is no right and wrong. That if you can rationalize or justify your actions then it’s ok.

This was my school experience and perhaps produced an entire generation of people not realizing that moral truths DO in fact exist. There is right and wrong and real life rarely deals with such silly hypotheticals like they presented us with.

A (#2) redux
Chuck: "The subject of the comment was the existence of God as opposed to His non-existence. The issue of ID will naturally be resolved once that more important question has been settled. "

Larger questions are usually answered by putting together the answers to smaller ones. In the domain where evidence is usable for answering questions, the answer to variations on "does a God exist" using the formal math on the evidence boils down to "probably not".

A, "Larger questions" are not necessarily the same as "important ones". Most 5 year olds have already answered the "God" question. It's only Western "intellectual" adults, committed to Scientism, who seem to be having a problem with it.

Evolution & God
As others have indicated, either support of Darwinian evolution or a supreme being creating the universe involves faith. Each individual decides what to believe. I doubt any indisputable evidence will surface in my life to "prove" either. Actually, I rather enjoy worshiping my God Who request only my faith.

roy
I probably should have written "non-living" instead of inorganic. Although some individuals narrow their definition of evolution to only include what happened after life began, the real issue is where life comes from - God or some random process. Thanks for corrective comment.

A (#1) redux
"I'm merely denying validity to YOUR implied claim that being "credentialled and published scientists" necessarily gives their argument any great credibility when they argue for "Intelligent Design". I'm rejecting an "Appeal To Authority", another form of fallacy. Address the argument, not the arguing."

A, when you decide you wish to stop arguing with strawmen and have a real conversation devoted to communication as opposed to arguing, let me know. In the meantime, go back and read the context of the dialog in which my statement appears to see why your prior committment to naturalism is showing and why your charges of "logical fallacies" displays your lack of argumentation skills.

Debate Deniers (sp?)
Whenever someone says that the debate is over regarding a controversial subject (i.e, Darwinism or Global Warming), it is usaully a facile attempt to avoid any real debate. And resorting to name calling does little to bolster weak positions either. In truth, it requires just as much faith to believe in Darwinism as it does to believe in God. This stands to reason, as Darwinism is merely a substitute form or religion.

richard
since the only life we know of is based on carbon why do i need to give you an inorganic example?

AndyR
Since the emphasis for my MBA is Computer Resources and Information Management (Webster University), I do have a pretty good idea of what constitutes information. Here is one definition:

b. the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects.

Please give me an example of usable information created from a random, inorganic process that could lead to the existence of life. By its very nature, information implies intelligence and design. I can only see three possibilities – chance processes, intelligent design, or magic. I think we can all disregard the third possibility (unless there are some wiccans present). If anyone had discovered a chance process that could produce useable information (information that produces a specific effect) I think it would be front page news. Even the term “specific effect” implies prior intent, which goes back to intelligence.

I should have eaten dinner...
Lenard: "In what way is this an example of order?"

Localized decrease in entropy, using the sense of "order/information" from thermodynamic, derivable from statistical mechanics and information theory, and giving rise to Natural Selection. Again, (doi:10.1098/rspa.2008.0178).

Richard: "I hold that it is worldview that really drives the argument, not science."

Science necessarily includes a hint of worldview, due to the (earlier mentioned) philosophical assumptions needed. Under the primary assumptions, the methodology of science derived therefrom is the best way to measure between theories, which include "worldviews".

The argument is driven by the inability of one side to understand the math (due to the many many meticulously taken steps). In their slight defense, the typical math PhD wouldn't be familiar with all of it. In their extreme critique, they are uninterested in learning about it.

Richard: "Order is not the same thing as information."

Only technically correct; the difference between Shannon Entropy and Thermodynamic Entropy is a scaling constant - to wit, Boltzmann's constant.

Ray: "You don't get Something for Nothing. Never."

Well, that's where the physics gets weird. The mass-energy associated with matter (having a positive value) appears to exactly balance the associated (negative value) energy of curvature from Space-Time, to within limits of Measure. Furthermore, the entropy of the universe is positive, while the entropy of Nothing is zero. Throw in that entropy tends to increase, and that Nothing includes "no Time to keep Everything from happening At Once", and you get a natural tendency for Nothing to Explode At Once into Something.

life is in the core of his son JESUS !
to william in texas where have you been!

ray
most cosmologists now believe that the universe is open or flat so it will keep expanding forever.tom tryon has a theory that the universe started as an extremely rare vacuum fluctuation.also if you add the negative gravitational energy potential to the total energy of the universe the result is zero net energy.so the universe just may be the ultimate free lunch.

and another rerun
AliveInHim: "Only one does not harm; it is neutral at best."

Referring to mutations, incorrect; again see (doi: 10.1073/pnas.0803151105).

Science can study the past using the now
Jerry: "Something that cannot be observed cannot be investigated by science; therefore science involves facts which are observed and laws which have either been demonstrated or falsified. On that basis, science neither proves evolutionary observations to be true, nor the creation fiat to be false, for both are (and were) unobservable."

A gross misportrayal; we can observe the evidence existing in the present, to infer the nature of what happened in the past. Fossils, for example, are quite observable.

Popperian falsification is not needed for Science, by the way; expression of an Absolute Null hypothesis (mathematically, merely saying "the data is...."), ability to distinguish between hypotheses, and competitive testing between hypotheses suffice.


PIRATE ROB
IF GOD WAS DEAD,YOU WOULDN'T BE AROUND.
PSM14: THE FOOL HATH SAID IN HIS HEART,THERE IS NO GOD.THEY ARE CORRUPT,THEY HAVE DONE ABOMINABLE WORKS,THERE IS NONE THT DOETH GOOD.
HMMMMM

end of the vivisect
Happy Jake: "Further on, you still have to account for the existence of life that had to evolve in the first place, which Darwinism does not do.

While the origins of life are a question of interest to evolutionary biologists and frequently studied in conjunction with researchers from other fields such as geochemistry and organic chemistry, the core of evolutionary theory itself does not rest on a foundation that requires any knowledge about the origins of life on earth. It is primarily concerned with the change and diversification of life after the origins of the earliest living things - although there is not yet a consensus as to how to distinguish "living" from "non-living". The question of the origin of life itself is referred to abiogenesis (or sometimes the "biogenic transition"), and may be considered separately.

Or in short, "You don't need to know the origin of life to prove the Evolution from that origin true."

more vivisection...
Happy Jake: "The primary problem with hard-core Darwinists is that they want you to believe that God had NOTHING to do with our existence"

No. The primary problem (slightly oversimplifying) is that on one hand, some conceptions of God are inconsistent with knowing "I have a hand"; and on the other, all other conceptions of God put forward allow the methodology of science indicating the conception is "probably wrong". Therefore, if you're learning about science, God doesn't enter the picture.

Happy Jake: "(F) What came before (I could go on ad infinitum, but you get the point)?"

First, see the bit about "primate-eutherian-mammalian-vertebrate-animal-deuterostome-bilateral-eumatazoan-animal-eukaryotes" I posted before this.

Second, all life (of the cellular form at least; there's debate as to whether virus are "alive") appears to have a single point of ancestry, known as the Last Universal Common Ancestor; everything is related. There may have been "cousins" around which were competed out of existence, all arising as a result of the biotic transition and prevolution.

Happy Jake: "And for Darwinism to work you have to account for billions upon billions of random accidents to get from point A to point B."

...and research indicates the "random" of mutations occurs with almost every reproductive event. You're ignoring that the mutations

Partial vivisection of Jake's Happiness
Happy Jake: "I'm saying that the odds against evolution, by random, unguided mutation and natural selection, from the single-celled bacterial life that existed 3.5 billion years ago into the vastly complex species homo sapiens approach infinite."

Again, same confusion between the odds of you particular result with odds of getting some results. The odds of complexity increasing were quite good; see (doi:10.1073/pnas.0806314106) for a recent paper on how that happened.

Happy Jake: 'Of those, we are the only ones that have anything more than a rudimentary sense of right and wrong. Even self-aware animals like dolphins, chimps, and elephants don't do things just because they are "good" things to do, or avoid them just because they are "evil." '

Factually inaccurate, saved only by the movable goalpost of "more than a rudimentary sense". In particular, save when provoked, elephants in the wild show considerable kindness to smaller animals, going out of their way to step on smaller animals. Dolphins also don't restrict their consideration to their own species, proverbially being willing to help keep stranded sailors afloat to aid reaching shore. Humans, however, are less altruistic outside our species.

Ask a biologist about the evolution of altruism; there's about forty years of published quality work on it. You might also look into the work on canine sociology, particularly wolves. (Research on wolf-dog hybrids and tamed wolves indicate dogs got stupider when they were domesticated.)

Happy Jake: "There is no solid evidence of a direct link between an earlier species and a current one."

The evidence is in every cell in your body: chromosome 2 fusion. See "Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusion" by Ijdo et al (doi:10.1073/pnas.88.20.9051).

DARWIN
THEY SAY HE'S A RELATIVE OF TARZAN OF THE APES.

reruns...
Richard: "There are two HUGE problems with evolution. It does not explain how life came from non-life and it does not explain how information can come from anything other than design and intelligence."

1) See above about "biogenesis".
2) Thermodynamically, information (in the thermodynamic sense) comes from the environment and accumulates in the genome. It is neither created nor destroyed, merely accumulated.

Again, see (doi:10.1098/rspa.2008.0178); Evolution is a direct result of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Richard: "Science can only reject the concept of a creator God if it chooses to reject the metaphysical elements of life that have been experienced and testified to by tens of millions of human beings."

No, it also can do so by noting the human propensities for pareidolia, psychosis, and lying; and after considerable investigation, reluctantly classifying such experience and testimony accordingly.


Google XKCD and Purity, kiddies
Lenard: "how is that natural selection guided evolution unless there already existed an ideal of a life form that would prosper in a particular environment."

You don't need a Platonic Ideal; you just need life to be possible at all, some source of variation in reproductions, and some manner of "better" and "worse".

Lenard: "one also has to consider how it is that in every scientific field other than biology we have constants."

So does biology. Biology is just applied study of carbon compounds that crawl; organic chemistry, just applied study of carbon compounds; chemistry, the applied physics of atoms; physics, the applied mathematics of space and time. The constants work their way up. Thus, the relatively simple constant from mathematics called the "golden ratio" shows up frequently, such as in sunflowers and the nautilus shell.

Lenard: "If evolution were true biology would only be a branch of chemistry, and should be reproducible at will."

Depending what you mean by "reproducible", it is; you need to look up the classic problem of the River Of Heraclitus. Essentially, though, that's why biology labs play with fruit flies: reproducing evolution.

And so...
Chuck: "A subjective evaluation at best; a partisan poisoning of the well at worst. Let the audience decide that, don't you think?"

I'm merely denying validity to YOUR implied claim that being "credentialled and published scientists" necessarily gives their argument any great credibility when they argue for "Intelligent Design". I'm rejecting an "Appeal To Authority", another form of fallacy. Address the argument, not the arguing.

Chuck: "The subject of the comment was the existence of God as opposed to His non-existence. The issue of ID will naturally be resolved once that more important question has been settled. "

Larger questions are usually answered by putting together the answers to smaller ones. In the domain where evidence is usable for answering questions, the answer to variations on "does a God exist" using the formal math on the evidence boils down to "probably not".

Never understood the idea of the one...
...having to be at the exclusion of the other.

Why is evolution seen as counter to religion.

It's been awhile since college but I doubt the principles of physics have changed drastically. You don't get something for nothing.

Go back far enough and the universe was 'created'. We know this because a steady state universe is the equal of perpetual motion which requires no losses and every system has losses.

The idea of a constant expanding and collapsing universe fails the same test. Eventually the losses are enough to either stop the collapsing or cannot start expansion.

Sometime ago there was a beginning.

The evolutionary process leading from the early life forms on earth to the point we find ourselves now is fairly evident. That a creature from this process has now become 'aware' is fairly evident also.

But somtime long before that, there was a beginning and to believe that this beginning was started from nothing is to deny science itself. You don't get Something for Nothing. Never.

MIKE H MD
IS THAT WHY THEY CALL YOU DIRT BAG?

Vampire
You wrote:"I really don't get it. Except that Christians are the ultimate in insecure. Just one magic word "evolution" can derail their entire religious upbringing? One word, one concept, one hour, one lecture, one day in all of high school."
Quite to contrary. We are very secure because we know where we are going when we die. We are also disturbed and frustrated because we also know where you will go when you die.
The word "evolution" is just another word for us. But the name Jesus Christ has divided this world for the last 2000 years, just like He said it would.
The average life expectancy is around 66 years. How much longer do you have to change your mind? Or will you make the most fatal mistake a keep believing you are god?

halting problem
a book that goes into detail about the halting problem is penrose's the emperor's new mind, although i found it rather daunting in spots since i'm not a mathematician.but he also discusses the origin of consciousness and even speculates about a "quantum randomizer"that helps the brain make decisions.i guess the best way to describe it is that your brain makes decisions before you are even aware of it.

DARWIN REPENTED ON HIS DEATH BED !
NONE OF US SHOULD WAIT,WE ALL NEED TO REPENT AND ASK GOD TO COME INTO OUR HEART!LORD JESUS HAVE MERCY!

God is dead
God is dead long live the God man.

Do we have to repeat the last century again?

The Supermen, the New Man, blah blah blah the brave new world.

Lenard
"The molecules that make up dirt for instance show no characteristics of becoming anything other than dirt."

That's because dirt molecules don't replicate.

Alive in Him
"Evolution has NO evidence. Sorry! "

No, I'm sorry. Evolution is the only explanation for the observations that we have seen.

For example, how does creation or "intelligent design" account for endogenous retroviruses?

I eagerly await you reply.

Stay warm, though!

I've read Dembski...
Lon: "What he is not is a credentialed scientist. And he is the one considered qualified to write the textbook."

To give the devil his due (as it were), not being a "credentialed scientist" is a lousy reason to ignore Dembski. Astrophysicists have been disdaining the work of Andrew Prentice for years, in part because he's a mathematician and not an astrophysicist. This, however, hasn't stopped Prentice from coming up with a model that enabled him to predict an impressive number of the findings from the Voyager probes. Prentice is not taken completely seriously, but his math most certainly is.

The problem with Dembski is that when talking about complexity, his book "The Design Inference" completely ignores the most important foundational results of the 20th century, such as Turing's Halting problem, the Chomsky Heirarchy of formal Languages/Grammars, and the entire field of algorithmic complexity sprung from them. Dembski should be disdained and ignored because he's a LOUSY mathematician.

Ooops!
AndyR: Those aren't my quotes.

Whoops, sorry. That was one from AliveInHim; my apologies.

lenard
sorry man-i got so used to reading that rat character that comes in here i lost my sense of humor lol.

Jerry
"Just HOW did we know they were there and all of that before they came to be named as planets?"

I already answered that in the same post you quoted from - The gravitational effects of Mercury on other planets. Sorry you have trouble reading simple sentences, I'll try to use shorter words next time.

Richard
Richard, evolution explain diversity among species. It is part of biology. Biogenesis necessarily concerns what happened BEFORE life - it is part of chemistry. Even if evolution is about 'molecules to man', it must concern molecules that are already alive. For something to evolve it must be replicating already - and therefore already alive. Not sure how much more simple I can make this.

And I'm not sure that YOU understand what you mean by 'information' either. I know biologists who understand 'information theory' very well, and none of them see it as a problem for evolution.

jerry
you are using two different criteria.you are saying that since evolution by means of natural selection cannot be proved(it has-there are many examples of speciation)that it has to be false.on the other hand you claim that since id cannot be proven false then it has to be true.

Reply to #165
Okay, then! ("We knew they were there because we have other ways to 'observe' them)Just HOW did we know they were there and all of that before they came to be named as planets? Was it by "general revelation?" Was it "special revelation?" Or was it that someone LOOKED up into the stars and OBSERVED something of great interest and then began investigating? Too, how can one "measure" something before first observing its presence? Your argument imploded on you "AndyR."

To all of the "POSTERS" on TH. We all go to great lengths (including myself) to prove our personal beliefs --whether from a scientific perspective or a faith-based perspective -- no one excluded! To re-phrase an old Mark Twain line: "Evolution is evolution, and Creation is Creation; and never the twain shall meet!" In the final analysis, the truth of it all will either evolve in the next transitional form of man, or at the judgment of the living and the dead. Let's roll William's proverbial dice!!

Have a great day! I'm outta here!

Lenard
I guess I didn't understand your point. Organisms are only "encoded" to be optimized to their current environment. If the environment changes and the organism can't adapt, it dies. There is no "ideal".

roy
I'm sorry for going above your head with humor, the point again is that only in biology are there no constants. If evolution were true biology would only be a branch of chemistry, and should be reproducible at will.

Lenard
"In what way is this an example of order?"

In what way is energy from an outside source entering a system to create order among pebbles an example of order? The answer's in the question.

AndyR
Order is not the same thing as information. If you think it is, then you don't understand the concepts underlying information science.

A (#1)
Sorry, didn't post the first time:


--------
(Chuck): 'The ovewhelming number of the proponents of what has been termed "Intelligent Design" are credentialled and published scientists, many of whom are tenured professors.'

(A): However, this does not indicate their disputation in the field of biology is necessarily competent enough to be considered "serious debate".

------------

A subjective evaluation at best; a partisan poisoning of the well at worst. Let the audience decide that, don't you think?

AndyR
When most people speak of evolution (and the way it is actually taught and understood in public schools and universities) they are referring to “molecules to man” evolution. Therefore, for all practical purposes, the THEORY of evolution encompasses the origins of biologic life and that is the crux of the contemporary argument. Where did we come from? That is the question that all of this is really about. Since we all have the same evidence, I hold that it is worldview that really drives the argument, not science.

AndyR
Really? I mean really snowflakes and pebbles??In what way is this an example of order? Will the pebbles then become a castle? AND snowflakes?? What order is being established? It's merely the rearrangement of water.

lenard
well dirt is a compound and gold is an element.if there are no gold atoms in that dirt you won't be getting any gold.but that doesn't mean that 2 elements can't combine to form a molecule.(h2o).the only place you can create elements heavier than helium is in supernova's.all that was created in the big bang was hydrogen,heavy hydrogen (deuterium),helium and trace amounts of lithium.

Jerry
"The first step in any scientific method is OBSERVATION. Something that cannot be observed cannot be investigated by science"

This is nonsense. We knew about the existence of certain planets in our solar system long before we were able to 'observe' them. We knew they were there because we have other ways of measuring things than direct observation. Long before we were able to directly observe Neptune, we knew the planet existed because of its gravitational effect on other planets.

Mr. Murchison (Cont.)
You said:
“The judicious judgment of John Henry Cardinal Newman that Darwinism ‘may simply be suggesting a large idea of divine providence and skill’ left too much ambiguity to suit most. Ambiguity, when it comes to evolution, is a thing many people dislike strongly. On go the furor and the anguish.”
Have you ever considered that efforts at trying to discredit the evidence of science will never succeed at solving your problem if your problem turns out to be that you have an inadequate conception of what the possible nature and attributes of a “supernatural power” or “God”, if it exists, may actually be?

Mr. Murchison
Suppose for the sake of argument that the best scientific evidence suggests that the universe probably came into existence in a massive explosion or expansion about 13.8 billion years ago, that our solar system including the earth was formed about 4.5 billion years ago, that the first forms of life appeared on the earth about 3.5 billion years ago, that the first primates appeared about 60 million years ago, that the earliest member of the genus Homo appeared about 2 million years ago, and that the first members of our species, homo sapiens, appeared about 200,000 years ago.
Furthermore, suppose for the sake of argument that all of what has happened during the past 13.8 billion years occurred by natural processes that human brains are able to understand through the study of physics, chemistry, biology, genetics, paleontology, anthropology, cosmology etc.
Accepting the likelihood of such a scenario, it should be pointed out, tells one absolutely nothing about whether or not a “supernatural power” or “God” exists, and if so, whether that “supernatural power” or “God” may have had something to do with the origin of our universe, and what attributes that “supernatural power” or “God” may actually possess.

Richard
"I know of no one in the evolution camp who can give a single example of useful information arising out of random chance."

As already explained several times, evolution isn't about 'random chance'. Natural selection, as the name suggests, concerns selection, albeit naturally. If something is being selected then it isn't random, right? Also, I'm not sure what you think you mean by 'useful information'.

But I can give you examples of order arising from non-order and complex patterns arising from chaos:

Snowflakes is an example of complex patterns arising from non-intelligence.
The waves on a beach will arrange the stones in order of size.

william
Please read my posting again, your response shows that either you don't understand it or chose to not address the point.

A (#2)

Chuck: "The proper way to approach this or any controversy, for one who is not settled in their convictions, is to examine as much evidence as is possible according to the competing theories and to determine which one correlates more accurately with that evidence."

The problem is that has to be done scientifically, in a way that ultimately rests on mathematics. The math does not hold for ID, in such a way that prevents it from becoming a "theory" in the formal sense science uses, rather than the colloquial that equates to merely "conjecture".

-------

Again, apologies if you misunderstood the direction of my comment to RepAt.

The subject of the comment was the existence of God as opposed to His non-existence. The issue of ID will naturally be resolved once that more important question has been settled.

Roy (post #100)
The first step in any scientific method is OBSERVATION. Something that cannot be observed cannot be investigated by science; therefore science involves facts which are observed and laws which have either been demonstrated or falsified. On that basis, science neither proves evolutionary observations to be true, nor the creation fiat to be false, for both are (and were) unobservable. For science to discredit or even begin to falsify creation as a viable means for the existence of mankind and the animal world removes itself from its realm of expertise and knowledge, to the realm of speculation and wishful thinking.

Murchison concludes..............
“a god capable of making the world ….would seem capable of prying open fast-shut eyes…..”. Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter expressing a similar thought. He suggested that since God created such an amazing range of intellects [from Einstein to the woefully retarded] that the Maker would surely forgive the keenest and most rational minds when they rejected the existence of God. Of course, the most profoundly retarded lack the capacity to question the existence of God. One hears claims that the majority of American’s are “True Believers” which must be the most damning indictment of the Nations intellectual decline.


Jim-Too

Richard
"There are two HUGE problems with evolution. It does not explain how life came from non-life "

That's like saying my table has a huge problem - I can't drive to work in it. Evolution doesn't CLAIM to explain the origin of life - that's biogenesis. Evolution explains biodiversity. You might as well say that evolution is fatally flawed because it can't predict the winner of next year's Superbowl, or moan that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity doesn't explain the origin of life.

...loose ends from the first 100
Lepanto: "The complexity of cells, DNA or the human eye doomed Darwin’s theory."

No; mathematically, the evolutionary algorithm is sufficient to generate any pattern up to Recursively Enumerable complexity.

Jesse: "Why is the younge Earth theory outdated?"

If you want a short answer, it is an inferior hypothesis under the exacting expression of Occam's Razor constituting the formal criterion (doi:10.1109/18.825807); ergo, it's "probably wrong". The long answer involves more math than you want.

Jerry: "If science is laying forth the claim that IT has the answeers to man's existence, and if religion is laying forth ITS claim that IT has the answer to man's existence, then the two should be examined side-by-side. Neither one should be excluded from the debate. This, I believe, is the crux of the problem as it relates to the education arena. And, based upon this criteria, Intelligent Design should be given equal billing in academia as evolution."

Science doesn't claim it has THE answer; it claims it has THE way to meaure the quality of answers, and the answers it has are the best SO FAR put forward by any method.

As for "equal billing", teaching science is considered to have non-religious purpose, and is thus allowed; however, including religious viewpoints of any sort under the banner of "science" violates the Antiestablishmentarian requirement.


....
Wrat Wrangler: "There SHOULD be, over a period of 500 million years, thousands of intermediate species clearly showing the "progression" of pure evolution."

Millions, actually. However, this doesn't mean we should expect to find fossils for them all. The usual fate of an organism that dies is to be eaten by something else, not fossilized; fossilization is rather rare.

Wrat Wrangler: "Remember it is still called the THEORY of evolution NOT Darwin's Law."

That's because the Law underlying is just the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Please note that the scientific sense of the word "Theory" differs from the colloquial; I suggest reviewing Florida education Benchmarks SC.3.N.3.1, SC.6.N.3.1, and SC.912.N.3.1 (available at FloridaStandards.org) for better understanding.

Oh, and the DOI references can be resolved at DOI.org if anyone wasn't aware.

Information, science, and evolution
There are two HUGE problems with evolution. It does not explain how life came from non-life and it does not explain how information can come from anything other than design and intelligence.

How does the THEORY of evolution explain the information in DNA? I know of no example, anywhere, of "spontaneous information" erupting out of blind chance. Information, but its very nature, ALWAYS requires intelligence and design. I know of no one in the evolution camp who can give a single example of useful information arising out of random chance. And to the best of my knowledge, NO ONE has been able to create even the simplest living organism from inorganic elements. Of course, even the SIMPLEST living organism is amazingly complex and contains a storehouse of information in its DNA.

The THEORY of evolution has, however, conveniently provided individuals who want to be their own gods with what they feel is an intellectual excuse to reject the one true God. Information science and the discovery of DNA has removed that intellectual argument and the theory of evolution is nothing more than a system of FAITH – belief in things that cannot be seen or proven by the scientific method (testable hypotheses and repeated experiments).

Additionally, Science can only reject the concept of a creator God if it chooses to reject the metaphysical elements of life that have been experienced and testified to by tens of millions of human beings. Thus, they only accept the idea that naturalistic explanations alone must account for the physical processes we see. But this then begs the question of the existence of a Creator.

Unfortunately for the evolutionists, God will not accept their excuses when we all stand before Him to be judged by His Holy standards. God sent His Son to suffer and die for our sins, a concept that evolutionists clearly reject and, sadly, will some day spend all of eternity paying for.

Bring-Your-Own-Purpose party
Ian: "Everything material is meaningless: its all merely the product of random chance."

No; it merely means the meaning we bring is nothing more than our own choice.

Ian: "Hence argument is meaningless, it can't alter the inexorable march of chance."

It can't stop it; it can alter the path.

Ian: "Nor can it explain why we are passionate."

Actually, it can. If you don't care if you live or die, you're more likely to die than someone otherwise similar who does care. Of course, if you're too passionate and get upset too easily, it can also be a drawback. Moderation is usually a virtue.

Lenard
many possible species can exist in any given environment. There doesn't have to be an "ideal".

Poker

Georgia Minuteman: "The odds of a fish morphing into a bird or a mammal are about the same as a tornado blowing through a junkyard and creating a 747"

As noted by Roy, you confuse the odds of a particular result with the odds of getting some result; it's the difference between expecting a poker hand to have a royal flush in spades, rather than expecting a poker hand has some five cards.

Georgia Minuteman: "But catching a royal flush from a deck of 52 cards is one thing, totally changing the genetic structure of a complex life form at the DNA level is another"

However, the genetic structure doesn't "totally change". When a speciation occurs, it just means one group becomes two that no longer interbreed, and thus may drift farther and farther apart.

"Proof"
AliveInHim: "But in no wise can evolution OR creation be definitively proved once and for all by any method and it's for one simple reason: NOBODY was there (except God) to see the beginning."

In the absolute philosophical sense, you also can't "definitively proved once and for all by any method" that you have a brain in your skull instead of a piece of cauliflower. However, science uses the word "prove" slightly differently.

As I noted previously, Science relies on competitive testing of all candidate hypotheses under a formal criterion for probable correctness. In the most formal sense, the criterion used for this is a more exacting expression of Occam's Razor, which has been proven in the absolute mathematical sense in the paper "Minimum Description Length Induction, Bayesianism and Kolmogorov Complexity", by Vitanyi and Li (doi:10.1109/18.825807). This shows that the most "concise" hypothesis (a function of both the bit size of the conjecture of how the data should be described, and how many bits are needed to convey all properties of the data thereby) is the one most likely to correctly describe the character of future data.

Note that the root of the word "prove" is from the Latin probare, "to test". Thus, hypotheses that become theories may be said to have been "proven" in the sense that Science uses the word. This is distinct from the mathematical sense, in that the usual use of "proof" in mathematics indicates a rigorous derivation from axioms; however, the sense that science uses is similar to the sense that a person might seek to "prove" that their brain is not a piece of cauliflower.

Lon
No, that gives one some sense of how "science" must be considered "science" only if a tenured professor declares it so.

Repeating citations...
Happy Jake: "But just because you can explain it doesn't make it any less a work of God."

Contrariwise, merely because you can attribute "the work of God" as the underlying "reason" for the explanation working doesn't mean your assertion of that is justified by other premises.

Happy Jake: "there are more holes in the evidence than there are proofs, and nothing, I repeat NOTHING has been produced to explain how and why Terran life evolved -- essentially through random natural processes coupled with Natural Selection -- from single bacteria to the complex and diverse life that exists today."

Screaming about "holes in evidence" indicates you've missed a less-that-subtle point in philosophy: any two pieces of evidence (A-B) have a "hole" between, and adding another in the middle (A-C-B) only means you now have two "holes". Since science is a method for inferring from what you have, to what you do not, pointing to "holes" is meaningless. Criticism within science must be founded by providing an alternative hypothesis (possibly with additional evidence not previously addressed) which measures better under the formal criterion (doi:10.1109/18.825807).

As to how and why, again see (doi:10.1073/pnas.0806714105), (doi:10.1126/science.1167856) and (doi:10.1098/rspa.2008.0178).

And now, some citations....
Happy Jake: "Left to themselves, things tend to go from order to chaos, not the other way around. Chaos-to-order requires help."

I'm afraid you're misunderstanding the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The "order-to-chaos" tendancy is only guaranteed for overall CLOSED systems. If, however, you have two subsystems (such as "sealed glass jar of ice water" and "room of warm humid air", or "earth's biosphere" and "the rest of the universe") connected by a mass-energy flow (the heat of the room, or the heat from the sun) between, the flow can result in local increases in order (such as "condensation on the glass", being a more ordered form or water than the vapor in the air; or "life shows up"). In fact, it's been shown that given such a system, the principle of natural selection is derivable directly from the Second Law equations to describe it; see "Natural selection for least action", Kaila and Annila (doi:10.1098/rspa.2008.0178).

Happy Jake: "Natural Selection alone in no way describes how we started with literally nothing but random pools of organic chemicals and through the random combinations of those chemicals (which they would HAVE to be) we ended up on a path to however many millions of animal, plant, fungus, and microbe species that exist today"

Actually, it pretty much does, although the term "prevolution" has been coined to describe the effect natural selection prior to self-replicating life. See "Prevolutionary dynamics and the origin of evolution", Nowak and Ohtsuki (doi:10.1073/pnas.0806714105); "Self-sustained Replication of an RNA Enzyme" by Lincoln and Joyce (doi:10.1126/science.1167856); and again "Natural selection for least action", by Kaila and Annila (doi:10.1098/rspa.2008.0178).

constants
MIKEH, one also has to consider how it is that in every scientific field other than biology we have constants. The molecules that make up dirt for instance show no characteristics of becoming anything other than dirt. One might manipulate that dirt into different forms but it won't become gold (I've tried, thought it might lead to an early retirement) and it will not become something alive. For evolution to hold true then it would have to hold true in all sciences, in that the makeup of any matter subjected to external influences would inherently be able to evolve into something living.

A...
Ahem, 'A', you're confusing me with someone else. Those aren't my quotes. Read some of my posts to get where I'm coming from.

Chuck
The textbook for Intelligent Design was written by William Dembski. A smart guy. I was in graduate school with him. It was a philosophy program. He also has a degree in math. What he is not is a credentialed scientist. And he is the one considered qualified to write the textbook. That gives you some sense of how seriously the science part of Intelligent Design really is.

The problem with claiming "design"
Chuck: 'The ovewhelming number of the proponents of what has been termed "Intelligent Design" are credentialled and published scientists, many of whom are tenured professors.'

However, this does not indicate their disputation in the field of biology is necessarily competent enough to be considered "serious debate".

Chuck: "The proper way to approach this or any controversy, for one who is not settled in their convictions, is to examine as much evidence as is possible according to the competing theories and to determine which one correlates more accurately with that evidence."

The problem is that has to be done scientifically, in a way that ultimately rests on mathematics. The math does not hold for ID, in such a way that prevents it from becoming a "theory" in the formal sense science uses, rather than the colloquial that equates to merely "conjecture".

Trying to avoid the math, the problem is technological design is itself an evolutionary process of competitive selection of variations; see historian George Basalla's book "The Evolution of Technology" (ISBN 0521296811) for elucidation. The fundamental difference between blind evolution and deliberate design is the latter has a specific element of purpose (or "agency" in philosophy jargon). ID does not have any explicit evidence to support a claim of purpose, or even at present explicit purpose to claim. No evidence, no purpose, no point, no theory, NO COOKIE!

And the big point....
AndyR: "It doesn't threaten me in the least. It is 'out there' after all, but students ought to be free to make up their own minds on the matter, with ALL the evidence for or against EITHER idea being honestly presented. What harm, may I ask, will that do?"

The problem is doing so in science class. Science refers to the process of gathering evidence, forming conjectures about the evidence, developing a formal hypothesis which indicates how the current evidence may be described under the conjecture, competitive testing of all candidate hypotheses under a formal criterion for probable correctness, plus the body of hypotheses testing best thereby and which thereafter are referred to as "Theories".

The method is derivable from and ultimately rests on the validity of Logic for formal inference, that the joint affirmation on the Zermelo-Fraenkel axioms are self-consistent, and that Reality is relatable (giving pattern) to Evidence. This brings us to two problems.

The first is that for an attack on a scientific conclusion to be valid, it must either be presented using the methodology of science, be made to the derivation of the methodology from the actual primary premises, or rejection of the primary premises. Creationists, however, generally do not present any of these, relying on rhetoric, abuses of inexact "common sense" approximations, and an assortment of fallacies.

More important is that Creationism (including Intelligent Design) does not measure up under Science. Deliberately including creationism in the science curriculum without mentioning this is tantamount to endorsement of the creeds which believe thus over those that don't, a violation of the Antiestablishmentarian requirement of the First Amendment. Contrariwise, deliberately including it for attack arguably constitutes violation of the Free Exercise requirement of the same. Thus, it should not be included in the science curriculum.

Some not-so-big details
AndyR: "At no time has one species or 'kind' changed into another."

Changed from one extant species into another? No, because evolution doesn't work like that, nor does it claim to. Changed from one species into two or more species, resembling the original but distinct from each other? Yes, relatively frequently on a geologic timescale. See the earlier bit about "primate-eutherian-mammalian-vertebrate-animal-deuterostome-bilateral-eumatazoan-animal-eukaryotes".

AndyR: "In fact, mutations are only neutral at best-they never indicate an improvement in the organism."

Incorrect. The example most prominent lately is meticulously documented in "Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli" (doi: 10.1073/pnas.0803151105), where a line of bacteria mutated the ability to digest citrate, giving them an advantage over their cousins.

Most mutation is near-neutral, providing only slight relative advantage or disadvantage to a current environment. Mutations which are significantly harmful are uncommon, and tend to quickly vanish from the environment. However, there are rare instances where a significant advantage results in such case, descendants carrying the advantage tend rapidly to dominate the population.

AndyR: "Many educators and ethical Scientists know it takes more faith to believe Darwin’s theory than believing the creationist view."

No. Creationism is simpler to understand, but requires larger points of faith. For science, the only points that need be taken on Faith are the validity of Logic for formal inference, that the joint affirmation on the Zermelo-Fraenkel axioms are self-consistent, and that Reality is relatable (giving pattern) to Evidence... about which, more in a moment. Everything else (even "cause and effect") is not an assumption of Faith, but an inference based on the evidence and resting on these premises.

NATURAL SELECTION
MIKEH how is that natural selection guided evolution unless there already existed an ideal of a life form that would prosper in a particular environment. One would have to impute to the earliest organisms an ability to understand or be cognitively aware on some level of a higher life form. These organisms would also have to have a desire to evolve, to become something more than they are. Further these organisms would need to have an innate ability to incorporate this need to become more and develop a means of passing on their "learned" experiences. Again, without a previous encoding within this organism there simply would not be a need to be more.

On Speciation
Robert: "What cannot be proved is that speciation took place. There is no evidence that a given species arose from a former species."

Actually, there are several such examples. Polyploidy in plants is the easiest to understand. However, chromosome fusion can have similar effects, such as the apparent fusion of primate chromosomes 2p and 2q (similar to the still-distinct ones from the chimpanzee) to form human chromosome 2.

Robert: "To paraphrase one brilliant ID proponent, you can do what you want to a fruit fly, and what you'll get is either a deformed fruit fly, a normal fruit fly or a dead fruit fly. You won't get a sparrow."

That indicates a fundamental misunderstanding about how speciation works. Speciation results in a more specific form of the species; thus, if a fruit fly speciates, you get a more specific form of fruit fly AFTER. This, however, suggests that as you look backward in time, you should expect that current species are more specific forms of more general ancestral groupings.

Thus, humans and chimpanzees are understood to both be more specific varieties of a common primate ancestor, while remaining primate-eutherian-mammalian-vertebrate-animal-deuterostome-bilateral-eumatazoan-animal-eukaryotes. In the case of sparrows and fruit flies, the divergence is greater, so the (non-uniform) "random walk" math suggests an earlier speciation. While Sparrows are avian-vertebrate-deuterostomes and fruit flies are insect-arthropod-ecdysozoa, all deuterosomes and ecdysozoa are bilateral-eumatazoan-animal-eukaryotes... and thus, yes, both are expected to have a common ancestor from the earliest bilateral animals.

Jake
"the problem is the Darwinists who believe the science IS settled (See Dr. Douglas's post at the bottom of this list for an example) and there is to be no more debate on the subject, despite the holes that you note are in the theory."

Think of it this way. In med school the students are taught about penicilin (analogy) because it is currently the best medical or scientific solution. If a better solution arises penicilin will quickly be replaced. If a better scientific solution of where we come from arises evolution will be replaced in textbooks.

"It's also a symptom of a larger problem of trying to cut any mention of God out of any public life. It goes along with "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, voluntary school prayer at extracurricular activities, singing religious carols at a Christmas pageant, and calling school breaks "Winter" and "Spring" instead of "Christmas" and "Easter."

Under God wasn't added to the pledge until 1954, it's not really symptom of removing god as much as it is trying to push him into everything. Voluntary school prayer is fine, when it is actually voluntary but when a teacher or other student stands up and leads the class in prayer there is pressure for the children to "fit in". As for the pageants and breaks. Are any Christian children offended by their vacation being called "winter"? Nobody disputes the seasons, if the children are Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or Atheist it MAY offend them in some way.

From the most basic....
Silver Lion: "So all the laws just happened by pure chance?"

That ties to Hume's Problem of Induction. Put simply, to allow for possibility of meaningful answer to any question about the universe, you must already presume there is some manner of pattern to the universe. Asking questions about the nature of pattern is meaningful; but the reason for "why do we find this pattern" is that "the hope of finding a pattern was assumed; and sufficiently general patterns can describe anything".

Mathematically, it doesn't matter why the laws are there; it just matters that they are. Similarly, while the laws we have have shaped the particular patterns we call "life", alternative mathematical rules may also allow for similarly complex patterns. Steven Wolfram's book "A New Kind of Science" touches on the mathematics somewhat.

Silver Lion: "How come the law of physics has NOT changed or evolved over 3.5 billion years?"

Because changes for a principle over time, just as changes in space (such as the constant acceleration of falling objects observed by Galileo, which actually varies slightly with distance from the center of mass) means that the principle is merely a particular expression of a broader principle (Newtonian gravitation, later refined to Einstein's space-time curvature).

More simply, if you see changes in the rule governing the pattern, it's because some bigger rule governs the change.

jake
yes homo erectus is classified as a separate species but the same genus.you might be interested in a couple of books i have read.neither tackles this issue but they are interesting.the first is the neandertal enigma by james shreeve.the second is the third chimpanzee by the physiologist jared diamond.diamond's book covers a lot of ground from how sexual selection functioned to create the human races to how one tribe from the russian steppes overran europe and imposed their language (indo-european) on everyone from england to india.(except basque).they did it by domesticating the horse to be used in warfare after the last ice age.

jake
the answer you don't want to see is that sharks, crocodiles, humans and everything else probably came from some sort of single celled organism.


alive in him
It's almost as if you willfully misunderstand evolution.

Co. Billy MItchel @12:44PM.............
contends that "there is a perfection in the universe which can only be explained by divine intervention". I freely admit that the universe is a pretty incredible construct. I marvel at both it's incredible beauty and it's profane UGLINESS every day...and it's seldom entirely bland.

But how, Col. Mitchel, do you define "perfection"? I suppose the answer is inextricably tied to the "nature of God [or gods]". Most cultures have constructed a "Satan" to whom they can assign the negatives....and they ascribe the positives to "God". But I contend that God...if he is truly the creator of ALL things...also created all the horrible diseases that have tortured mankind from the beginning of time. Who [or what], Col Mitchell, "created" typhoid, cancer, malaria, Ebola [and uncountable other bacterial, viral, metabolic, etc. conditions] to torture mankind [His Most Perfect Creation]?

Jim-Too


William
But they came from somewhere. Even accepting that they evolved from a previous species and found their niche, they still had to come from somewhere. And the proto-sharks and their antecedants had to come from somewhere. And either the mutation that created them or the environmental change that caused that mutation was a random accident unless you believe God was involved.

The problem with Darwinian evolution is that it all comes back to random accidents either in the biology of existing species or the environment around them. And for Darwinism to work you have to account for billions upon billions of random accidents to get from point A to point B. Further on, you still have to account for the existence of life that had to evolve in the first place, which Darwinism does not do.

Happy Jake
"But sharks (crocodillians are another example here) are relatively unchanged (as far as species go) for many millions of years."

Sharks have little to know competition, they are an Apex Predator. Evolution or Speciation occurs when stresses are placed on a species and a certain "mutation" allows for an advantage. The only competion sharks have seen is recent humans, after the beginning of fishing industries. This is not long enough for noticeable, if any, differences.

"Furthermore (and I know this is false) are we to believe that there have been only negligable changes in the ocean environment since the time of the dinosaurs than would necessitate more drastic mutation than has occured in sharks?"

Again, there have certainly been changes in the ocean, but not neccessarily significant enough to cause changes in the species. Also, sharks and other sea animals are not isolated, they can move to a more hospitable environment far quicker than evolutionary processes could take effect. This is why speciation is more readily visible in isolated species like "Darwin's Finches" or the winged lizards in the Philipines.

MikeH
Evolution has NO evidence. Sorry!

The main mechanism for evolution is mutation. There are three kinds of mutation that may take place within an organism. Two are harmful, even deadly. Only one does not harm; it is neutral at best. So, how does it then work, if it isn't going to change anything for the better?

The other line of 'evidence' so called is the tree or line of life. The only problem is, there is no 'common ancestor' at the bottom or beginning of either. Further, there aren't any transitional forms along the branches. There are plenty of critters at the ends, and some along the trunk or main line, but my point is there is more that is 'not there' than there is there. For that matter, our labels are all man-made-who knows really what boundaries God meant when he told each plant and animal to reproduce after its kind? And-the fact that we like to catalog stuff of all kinds into categories says something about a peculiar sense of order, sense and logic that animals do not possess-but God does. :)

Autopsies are indeed useful-but we've all heard of the healthy man who dropped dead of a heart attack and nobody could begin to guess why, in spite of his heart etc having been in line with what the docs consider healthy. The forensic pathologist can only tell us his heart simply stopped; all other things being equal the questions are not always answered even so.

Jake
Here is an article on the natural history of sharks.
http://www.fathom.com/course/21701777/index.html

And here is one on crocodilles.
http://afarensis.blogsome.com/category/vertebrates/reptiles /crocodylia/

They are a long lived species because they found a niche that works for them.

Vampire
The problem isn't the existence of evolution education, the problem is the Darwinists who believe the science IS settled (See Dr. Douglas's post at the bottom of this list for an example) and there is to be no more debate on the subject, despite the holes that you note are in the theory. It's also a symptom of a larger problem of trying to cut any mention of God out of any public life. It goes along with "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, voluntary school prayer at extracurricular activities, singing religious carols at a Christmas pageant, and calling school breaks "Winter" and "Spring" instead of "Christmas" and "Easter."

William
I beg to differ. If there was no first shark, there was no second or subsequent shark, thus there would be no sharks.

And I did say "(or not)" about a fish mutating into sharks suddenly. I realize it is a long process.

But sharks (crocodillians are another example here) are relatively unchanged (as far as species go) for many millions of years. Are we to say that the ocean environment changed so suddenly and drastically (in geological terms) when sharks first appeared that they had to appear just when they did? Furthermore (and I know this is false) are we to believe that there have been only negligable changes in the ocean environment since the time of the dinosaurs than would necessitate more drastic mutation than has occured in sharks?

And what caused the environmental change? Random accident.

To Pancho
I have no doubt that each individual life has purpose and that purpose is basically whatever the individual deems it to be, family, friends, activism, etc.. But as far as the more broad aspect of all life in general, I can see no logical or intelligent nee