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Wednesday, January 09, 2008
Bill Murchison :: Townhall.com Columnist
Pain, Suffering, and Capital Punishment
by Bill Murchison
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Such is the state of modern society that the U.S. Supreme Court gets the job of deciding how much pain the victim of capital punishment feels -- never mind what kind of pain the victim's victims may have felt.

Kind of interesting -- and very modern: part and parcel of the process by which our institutions attempt to work off guilt for all manner of things done in the past and now perceived as somehow brutal and unjust.

A court decision adverse to the state of Kentucky's procedure for executing convicted murderers -- a drug "cocktail" that knocks out the victim before killing him -- wouldn't exactly end capital punishment, or even capital punishment via drugs. What it would do is send state lawmakers re-legislating to identify and approve a pain-free knockout punch.

The Kentucky cocktail is standard 21st century operating procedure -- a replacement for the electric chair, which in turn replaced the noose.

A lawyer arguing for mercy on Ralph Baze -- who executed a sheriff and deputy trying to serve a warrant on him -- insisted the way to go is a single dose of barbiturates. Justice Antonin Scalia wanted to know why pain was such a central consideration in the legal equation. "This is an execution, not surgery," Scalia said.

Well, yes. And no. That it is an execution is what matters to growing numbers of Americans working to put capital punishment itself to death. The technique is, object to everything about the death penalty -- fairness, pain, cost, international opinion, the prospect of executing the innocent. Death by a thousand cuts is the prescription for the death penalty.

Any time you have to put the matter to lawmakers -- as would be the case if the Supreme Court were to disallow the Kentucky cocktail -- is a chance for a debate on the whole premise that the state may take a murderer's life. You're debating means, say, and someone says no, let's talk about ends and about the supposed moral horror of an execution.

Only last month, liberal New Jersey became the first state in 42 years to abolish the death penalty, which it wasn't using anyway. Polls show public support for capital punishment at 62 percent -- though large, it's also shown to be the lowest in three decades. Capital punishment foes would doubtless peel off more of these adversaries once they got rolling. Considerable help would come from liberal Christians, including evangelicals of the Jim Wallis/Sojourners stamp, with their worldly concerns for "social justice."

It fascinates -- the gift of 21st century society for turning inside out its old norms without devoting undue attention to the question of whether those norms made the sense we once supposed they did.

What about capital punishment? Does it suddenly, after all these centuries, make no sense? The principle, I mean, not every application, as in the burnings-alive of the Reformation era -- none of which we're likely to imitate as a society.

It would have made sense to spare the lives of Goering and Himmler rather than visit on them personally and publicly the consequences of their war crimes? What of Hitler himself, had he survived the war? What of Stalin, could he have been caught by the representatives of a decent Russian regime? What of Saddam Hussein, who was indeed caught and hanged?

Extreme examples? I raise them for purposes of affirming the underlying purpose of capital punishment, which really isn't that of deterring bad behavior; it's that of making a declaration about a particular human act, one so wicked that not to inflict proportionate punishment would be the same as saying, there, there, you've been a bad boy, but that won't stop us from caring for you and feeding and housing you and making sure your plasma TV works right.

Baze, our Kentucky murderer, pleads for exemption from suffering. Why, all he did was kill two men in cold blood. What do we learn from avenging them? the soft-hearted inquire. We learn their human worth, for starters -- their unique place in the created order, as disdained by the man who shot them. We learn of their families' pain and suffering. Lastly, we learn of classic justice -- "to each his own" -- and the urgency of restoring it to a central place in modern affairs.

The renewed, re-quickened attack on the agonies of capital punishment may have its success stories to relate. Whether these stories will speak with equal conviction as to the agonies involved in maintaining the moral order -- we wait to see.

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About The Author
Bill Murchison is a senior columns writer for The Dallas Morning News and author of There's More to Life Than Politics.
 
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The guillotine is instant and painless
Televise executions.

Make them an absolutely public spectacle, like the old days.

End the practice of limitless appeals. 90 days to submit, argue, and adjudicate all appeals.




BrianR
The reason for ending capital punishment should be obvious. Along the way, between the process of finding a suspect & trying and sentencing him/her any one or more people may have biases, make honest mistakes, be more interested in finding someone than in finding truth (especially those whose job rests with conviction rates), be lazy or incompetent, on and on. These
problems can be found in police, in lawyers,
in judges, in people giving evidence, in members
of the jury.

How many trials are games between lawyers.
How many times do we have to hear on the news and see on court TV type programs about how juries were hoodwinked by ambitious prosecutors, how evidence was withheld, how the police were lazy
with their investigating because they were
convinced (wrongly) that they had their man?

I don't know how we could change the system to make it any better. But any sane person in the world would have to admit that it is not perfect,
because people are not perfect. And we are
talking about a life here. Not just time wasted, but a life. Supposedly, that should mean
something very very important to us.

Life without parole
That sounds like a just alternative. It gives the offender a chance to contemplate his crime for the rest of his life behind bars. He/she obviously has no respect for themselves or the victim and just a little more time (like the rest of his/her natural life behind bars) is just the right prescription for allowing ample time for them to make their peace with God (or whatever they believe in). After all, I'm sure they are really sorry for their actions and would never harm another individual when placed in the general population in fear that their sentence would be amended to another life sentence. That would be intolerable to a repentant murder with no chance for parole.

Better yet--and a more humane, soulful practice--would be to see a show of hands among the anti-capital punishment activists of who would be willing to rehabilitate these poor misguided individuals and have them over for Sunday dinner, maybe watch the SuperBowl, toss back a few brews and see who lives to see the next SuperBowl. All they need is a little love and compassion, after all. You can deduct the expense for the beer and chips on your next income tax filing and save millions of public funds to boot. Then when enough of you have been adequately lauded for your humanity in your obituaries, we truly compassionate individuals can mete out fitting punishments for those who have absolutely no regard for the sanctity of human life.

Hands, please . . .

The fact that they are hearing
this case at all tells you that the court is still too liberal.

Lemonade
How about Ted Bundy? He caused I don't recall how many families years of grief that will never go away entirely and you believe his life was worth saving? Why? No civilized human being believes those many young women deserved to die, but apparently he had no problem with it. For that reason alone he absolutely had to be taken out. I recall some years ago a high school student from our community being lured to her death by a particularly nasty piece of human debris. He was nationally known to be a serial killer of young women whose name, beyond "Chris", escapes me now. He was later killed in a gunfight with police. Should he rather have been spared, and why?


Would you be willing to do as LL in LA suggests to help make the system better?



Much like
how the author says that anti-capital punishment activists want capital punishment to "suffer the death of a thousand cuts (via endless appeals)" the same ilk want to wear away at "life with no chance of parole." With their unsupportable, teary-eyed belief system, everyone will come to their senses and be rehabilitated. Then, they will be released and go on to live a productive life and support NPR.
As LL suggests, let those activists open their own homes as half-way houses for "re-habilitated" murderers.

In this day and age
of DNA testing, the chances of the state killing the wrong guy are almost nil. Personally I believe that anyone who is slated to be executed for murder should have the execution take place with the same method of death as their victims. But I doubt I could beat a person in the head with a hammer until their skull was shattered, or shoot them in the back of the head, or do any one of the awful things that 99% of the murderers on Death Row have done. So the cocktail is quite fine by me; it shows a level of compassion for preventing pain that these SOBs did not have for their victims.
A teenager can mercilessly tease a tiger and the tiger is executed for defending itself, I am not surprised in the least by this turn of events for the scum of our society. Murderers should be put to sleep like the rabid dogs they are, and the liberal Christians who wait for these despicable POS to "come to Jesus" can meet them in the afterlife if God sees fit.

Here's a Different Way to Think About It
I am NOT opposed to the idea of capital punishment. I think we are obligated to make it as painless as possible, but I have no problem with the concept.

I have a huge problem with the risk of executing an innocent person. So here's my question.
Would those of you who favor capital punicshment, especially a quick and vengeful capital punishment, be willing to hand down that sentence if it were the case that you would have to undergo the same fate if the executed person were later proved innocent?

If so, what conditions would have to be met before you would issue that sentence?


Beyond a Reasonable Doubt
Becky - "In this day and age of DNA testing, the chances of the state killing the wrong guy are almost nil".

True - only if DNA evidence is required for conviction. Which it is not. People can still get the death penality without DNA. There is still too much looseness and flaws in the system to convict and execute the innocent.

If we are to have a death penality, we as a civilized society need to do the best we can to ensure we are executing the guilty. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" does not cut it. DNA evidence must be required for the death penality.

Secondly, it must be equally administered to rich and poor, white and black without any prejudice or favortisim.

Many people's need for revenge and the dehumanization of convicted killers causes us to behave just like them. We need to be careful we do not become the people we are condeming. We are over looking the flaws of our humanity and the legal system and we rush to judgement.

With the death penality, we as a society do not get the chance to say we are sorry for a wrong conviction.

Life is
about teaching & learning, no matter what the subject is.
After the criminal has been convicted & with any doubt to the case, that person should suffer.
The teaching & learning would be given to others who have committed a less serious crime via watching the punishment.
It might change a few minds.


So let's return...
to hanging, firing squad, beheading.

Or, how about doing to them what they did to the person(s) they killed.


Jack
You say the risk of innocent people being executed is unacceptable.

We already accept the risks of innocent people dying of other things, from being shot to death by police to airplane crashes. Why is being executed so much worse?

If we are going to execute advocates of
the death penalty if an innocent person is mistakenly executed, then we also need to execute opponents of the death penalty if murders are given a life sentence, then paroled, and commit another murder.

How many innocents?
I'd be interested to hear of one, single example of an innocent person being executed in the last 30 years. I believe all this talk about "executing the innocent" is bogus, because no innocents have been executed in recent memory. Maybe I'm wrong, so I'll be happy to hear about any examples you can come up with.

The Supreme Court often comments that one side or the other cannot produce an example of the kinds of civil rights violations that are being litigated. In fact, that's what's happening in the case Mr. Murchison is discussing. If those of you who keep gushing about all the innocents being executed can't produce an example of such a mistake, perhaps you should try a different approach to arguing against the death penalty.

Cruel and inhumane
as a standard needs to be compared to the crime committed.
Making executions more public could actually detre some crime, but not all.

LL in LA
Haven't seen too many hands raised for volunteers so far. Maybe a search on Daily Kos needs to be mounted.

On CP generally:

Go though the safeguards. Positive DNA testing or otherwise overwhelming evidence so there is virtually no doubt. Make it as painless and humane as possible.

End the endless appeal process. 90 days is probably too short to write a reasonable appeal brief and adjudicate it; I would suggest a year for the process.

If people knew beforehand of the certainty of their execution within a year's time after conviction, there would be some deterrence.

On the "prejudice or favoritism" part, sure, we need to do all we can to make the system fair, but on a basis of no special breaks for anyone, black, white, rich, poor. The guiding principle is that if you can't do the time don't do the crime. If you kill an innocent person and toss their body in a canal on the side of the road, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the caliber of your representation, your misguided childhood, or the order in which your number comes up. If you don't want to find yourself in an untenable situation, there is a very simple solution. DON'T BUTCHER SOMEONE IN COLD BLOOD!


Pain, Suffering, and Capitol Punishment
I agree that anyone who deliberately kills someone, or rapes a child - even if he doesn't kill that child should be put to death. And that he (or she) should suffer at least as much as the victim.

I do NOT feel sorry for the slime that set out to harm/kill others. They make a CHOICE to commit a crime. They don't care about the victim, or any laws. They only care about what THEY want.

Let the punishment fit the crime!
And get the word out there that the criminal will not be treated as a "victim" anymore. "You make a bad choice, you pay the consequences!" Period!

THE QUALITY OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
If the poor thing believes that a lethal injection will bring such pain and suffering that he should be spared such misery, then just take him out behind the barn and shoot him.

It's a case where he can dish it out, but he can't take it.

That goes especially for all the child molesters who are given probation after raping a 12-year-old child. Put them in general population after the first conviction. They'll learn first-hand how fine it can be. There should be no second convictions for child perverts.

But this guy, just shoot him.





Why Is It
That SUPPOSEDLY Well Educated Liberals keep on SPOUTING the SAME NONSENSE for DECADES even when it has been PRVOEN WRONG? Delusion or Deception? I Report, You Decide :)!

How much pain and suffering
was inflected on the victims of these animals? Like this guy arrested in Ga. that kidnapped the hiker and her dog. Drove around with her in the back of his van for 3 days, before beating her to death, and decapitating her? Or the pedifile in Fla. that assaulted little Jessicaa, and buried her alive.
I for one wouldn't weep if they were sentenced to die, in the same way their victim did.

The truth is....
The truth of the matter is that we are an effeminate culture and have lost the integrity to enforce our laws whether criminal laws or immigration laws. The death penalty will always exist. The real issue is whether the government will use it. Criminals already use the death penalty. The American judicial system is becoming more of a farce every day.

Kill! Kill! Kill!
The attitude of many posters here shows them to be as bloodthirsty and violent as those they wish to eliminate. That's not a suprise, actually. But this attitude is one of the reasons the death sentence is in question: such visceral desire to inflict death and suffering is unlikely to produce a system or a jury that can objectively consider facts and evidence.

But here's the question. Under what circumstances would you hand down a death sentence if you knew you would be executed should the convicted person turn out to be innocent?


Nanna
Can’t you just hear The Liberal Idiots SCREECHING now. WAAA! IT’S NOT THEIR FAULT! WAAA! TEY CAME FROM A BROKEN HOME! WAAA! THEY WERE ABUSED AS CHILDREN! WAAA! WAAA! WAAA!

Bob
What do you think of Geroge Twin's approach? WOuld you recommend him for a jury?

Executing the "innocent" person
First of all, any social policy has costs. You want to save tens of thousands of innocent lives each year? Lower the freeway speed limit to 15mph.

You willing to do that? If not, then your argument is spurious, self-serving, and inconsistent.

We accept certain costs as the inevitable price of a policy that serves a greater good or benefit for society at large.

Is any human endeavor 100% foolproof? No, of course not.

Do we send "innocent" people to prison? Probably. However, there's not one documented case of which I'm aware in which a truly innocent person was executed.

Further, the miscreants who end up getting the death penalty aren't people who've committed garden-variety homicides (if there is such a thing). Their crimes are particularly heinous. And in this day and age, the evidence is overwhelming. Further, the crime of which they're convicted is most likely only the tip of a very large iceberg.

Save your tears for the victims. I have no sympathy for these scumbags at all. I'd prefer to see them drawn and quartered.


Brian, I Don't Disagree.
AS I said, I do not oppose the death penalty in principle. But people have to examine the situation as if they had a stake in the outcome. It's too easy to be all gung ho about killing someone without really considering the situation.

There are several circumstances which mitigate against the death penalty today.

1) While there are no verified cases of innocent people being executed there are cases of innocent people on death row being vindicated. This should be a caution

2) There is a verified bias against minorities. For the same crimes in the same numbers, black men will receive the death penalty more often than white men. That's why Illinois put a moratorium on the death penalty.

3) There is a verified bias against poor folk. Think OJ. Poor people are more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime than rich people.

All I am saying is that advocates of the death penalty should be equally concerned with resolving those issues as they are with revenge.

Beyond the shadow of a doubt
For those who offer the possibility that an innocent person might be put to death as an excuse to do away with the death penalty I offer:
While the guilt of a crime is itself decided based on being "beyond a reasonable doubt." In captital cases there is a second, penalty phase where the sentence is decided. So let the sentence of death be depeendent on a finding of "beyond the shadow of a doubt."

Again, Jack
If you're looking for a perfect system, you'll never find it on this world. The exact same arguments can be made regarding imprisonment. What do you propose? Suspending punishment until we perfect the system, which will be never?

I'm willing to accept the fact that an innocent person may be executed; that's the cost of doing business, just like 65mph speed limits lead to tens of thousands of deaths per year.

Yeah, the rich get better lawyers. That's life. The rich get better everything. So what?

Yes, there are biased people on juries. That knife cuts both ways. OJ, whom you cited, is a perfect example of bias in action, and it worked FOR the defendant.


We agree on that Much
or so it seems. But my conclusion is different. I am not comfortable condemning someone to death after simply dismissing inequity in the legal system as no big deal. Especially when we have the capacity to rectify it.

And I am certainly not comfortable with a white person advocating the death penalty after dismissing racial bias in sentencing. It's TOO EASY when you don't face that risk. That is why I ask the question. Under what circumstances would you hand down a death sentence if you had to run the risk of paying for a mistake?

How many innocents?
BrianR writes: "However, there's not one documented case of which I'm aware in which a truly innocent person was executed".

iandelor writes: "I'd be interested to hear of one, single example of an innocent person being executed in the last 30 years".

The question cannot be answered simply becasue we just assume them guilty. No one follows up.

There are documented cases of people on death row being released due to DNA testing. So they were not executed. Some studies show 1 in 7 people on death row are exonerated.

Gov. George Ryan of Illinois have recognized that there are serious flaws in the death penalty system that must be studied and resolved. That's why he stopped all executions in Illinois until the state can examine why more death row inmates have been found innocent and released from prison than executed since the reinstatement of the state's death penalty in 1977.

Since the convicted are officially/legally guilty we just assume it must be true. No one ever investgates, even when the condemmed insists on thier innocence right up to their death. Case is closed.

To say we have never executed an innocent person is just denial. So the next rational is..."So What". "We accept the death of innocents for other things why not this"?

WOW - I have no idea how to respond to such thinking. It is outside my comprehension. For a self-proclaimed Christian, moral and civilized society, this line of thinking is abhorrent to me.

It makes me realize that murders and and posters here are much more similiar than disimiliar. They want to kill. They are just on two different sides of the law.

My experience
I'm a licensed PI in California, and I spent a couple years on the Dark Side working as an in-house investigator for a criminal defense law form. I worked hundreds of cases, everything from prostitution, child abuse, stat rape, sex crimes, drug cases, all the way up to and including kidnapping and murder.

I never, ever ONCE saw an innocent defendant. Ever.


Jack, I'm sure you're a well-meaning guy, but your assertion that we can "rectify" the inequities in the legal system is based on the false idea of the perfectability of humans. That's impossible; you're looking for unachievable perfection. I'm willing to go with what we've got. If it can be improved, great! We will. But until then, I'm not willing to suspend appropriate punishment for criminals while we're on the quest.

Stedes, I'm familiar with some of those cases you cite regarding the DNA, and without going into all the ramifications of DNA testing and how it's changed over the years, I'll take a different tack: those cases simply make my point. If those guys truly were innocent -- and I strongly doubt it -- they weren't executed, were they? The system worked.




Jack
Good Posts..It seems like the death penality as a ready, shoot, aim approach is acceptable here...

Just kill him...Don't worry about executing the inncocent, during worry about a flawed process. As long as we got someone to pay.

With this thinking, why even have a trial? What people here seem to forget is that the basis of our constitution is individual rights and to protect the innocent. A legal system that does not protect the innocent has failed and is unconstitutional.


But I'll re-assert
I DO NOT subscribe to the "better ten guilty men go free than one innocent be executed" BS.

If the occassional innocent gets it, that's the cost of doing business. Because those ten guilty guys are going to go back out and do their evil deeds. You want to explain to the families of their next victims why Mom's dead? I don't.

I also notice that nobody seems to want to address my analogy involving freeway casualities. Why is that?


BrianR
"I'll take a different tack: those cases simply make my point. If those guys truly were innocent -- and I strongly doubt it -- they weren't executed, were they? The system worked.

The system only worked for people they were able to DNA Testing for. How likely would these people have been executed without DNA Testing?
How many did we miss before DNA Testing? And how many did we miss becasue we could not do DNA Testing?


Oh, Stedes, that's childish
and you should know it.

Not one person here has said anything about suspending due process of law.

Your side seems to be the ones who want to do that, by asking for unrealistic standards.


Stedes
Your question has already been addressed. I believe what I've written already covers those issues.

Stedes, let me ask YOU
Your so concerned about the loss of innocent life. Are YOU willing to lower the national freeway speed to 15 or 20 mph?

If not, why not?

The REAL irony
of this whole debate is that, by and large, the people and groups who are so concerned about the poor murderers being executed are also the same people who support abortion on demand.

Talk about the loss of innocent life! And talk about hypocrisy!


"JUSTICE" is...

the English word of law and society that is the equivalent of the "equal (=) sign in mathematics. Or "crime = punishment ". That noted, then the issue at hand is not whether an execution is the appropriately "equal" punishment for 1st. degree murder, but rather is the person to be executed actually guilty of the crime of human murder and not simply "legally found guilty". True guilt IS the issue in executions. Not capital punishment. The only issue in the carrying out of capital punishment is the method used. The speed of the executioner is paramount. The rest, merely footnote.

I am for executing truly guilty people who have killed another human being for gain or escape. I am for executing those who have committed more than one murder. I am for executing those found guilty of treason, because no country worth fighting and dying for is not worthy of a patriots blood that will not kill its own traitors.

I am not in favor of executing for crimes of passion, of the truly mentally ill or the incapacitated. However, I am in favor of an absolute "Life without parole" provision in the law to limit executions to those found sane and only "legally" guilty. If the opponents of capital punishment cannot, or will not, offer me the compromise of the above, then let the executioners blade fly.

Right, Bucko
And the crimes you mentioned are the ones for which people are usually given the death sentence.

"Crimes of passion" usually lead to lower sentences, and usually with a parole eligibility. Many times, the base charge itself is reduced, to a lesser degree of homicide or even manslaughter.



Do it within 30 days

If they can put a small needle in my arm, then mess around with my hemorrhoids or my heart and I don’t feel a thing, just give the prisoner a shot ten times as big as they gave me, then give him anything they want and it will work. Nothing will be felt except the heat in hell.

If you think the death penalty doesn’t work, next time the doctor prescribes medicine for a serious illness, don’t take it, just put it on a shelf. Occasionally look in the bottle, shake it once in a while, and after 15 years of suffering, take the medicine. Then you’ll say, “That medicine didn’t help.”

On February 15, 1933, a bricklayer, Giuseppe Zangara attempted to assassinate President-elect Roosevelt. He killed the mayor of Chicago, Anton J. Cermak, instead, and Zangara was executed a month later, March 20, 1933. The death penalty was swift and effective. Zangara never killed again!

Both medicine and the death penalty work best when used immediately, not 15 years after the fact.

If the prisoner is not ready for execution within 30 days, execute the lawyers responsible for that miscarriage of justice.

Hypocracy
The same idiots placing 'high value' on the life of a murderer are the same people advocating abortion rights. Which is it? Do you value life or don't you?

I've seen enough injustice to last me a million life times. For those of you worrying about the scumbags feeling pain, I guess you never watched the pain of his victim. Their families. Their communities. It's heart wrenching!

They should die in the same manner as their victim did. Yeah, yeah, I know...I have no compassion. WRONG. I have a lot of compassion. I properly reserve it for the victim.

I've had it with the excuses. "He had a hard life" "He was abused". So what. Who hasn't had a hard life. Everyone has gone through some form of hardship. That doesn't grant entitlement to harm another. In fact,it should inspire one to say..."that was done to me and I didn't like it so i surely wouldn't do it to another". I am not seeking vengence, but rather justice. The guy that claims he was abused and turned around and did the same thing to an innocent person was the one seeking vengence. The rest of us just want justice.

this and that
a) Poor and minority get death more often? Maybe because they commit the crimes more often? OJ didn't get death not because of his wealth or color, but because he was found NOT GUILTY.
b) Appeals should be limited to one per level of appeal. If the perp was convicted on a state charge, there should not be any appeals allowed to federal courts, as per the Constitution! Limit each level of appeal to a six month time window.
c) All executions should be live on TV, and not pay-per-view. Pre-empt all TV shows in the state for that 10 minute time period.
d) How about using the gas chamber? I wanna see the look on the perp's face when the cyanide capsule hits the fluid below his seat. Hanging, injection, hanging, firing squad also acceptable methods.
e) Mumia Abu-Jamal should have been dead for over 20 years now. FRY MUMIA TOMORROW!

new book
"Murdered By Mumia" by Maureen Faulkner and Michael Smerconish is a must read. Maureen's husband, Danny, was a Philadelphia cop and was murdered by Mumia Abu-Jamal while he attempted to arrest Mumia's brother. Because Mumia is black and muslim, he's gotten worldwide attention, fame, and glory. Hollyweird stars and international politicians have honored him and have fought for his release, but Maureen Faulkner and Danny's family have fought back. Whenever Mumia gives a commencement address via video or audio tape, she's in the front row handing out the real FACTS of his case. He and his brother, who were both there that night, refused to testify in his defense. Why would a brother not testify unless he was afraid of getting a perjury charge?

FRY MUMIA!

reciprocity for mistaken execution
I would be willing to forfeit my life for any execution in which I was given the final decision to go forward with the execution.

As for my standards for handing out execution as a sentence, that would take longer than I have to devote to this comment. As a basis, I'd be relatively happy with the current standards with DNA evidence being mandatory.

I in no way have a low valuation for life. I am an opponent of abortion. I am an opponent of the devaluation of the victims of the crimes we consider for capital punishment.

One last comment. It is offensive to state that those of us who value the lives taken by murderers much more than those of murderers to be out for revenge, or that we are the same as or similar to murders in our intent.

Hues
Contrary to popular TV shows, DNA evidence is not in evidence in most crimes.

It is certainly NOT ubiquitous. It's fragile, and in many cases even if present at a crime scene it may have been damaged, degraded, or otherwise unuseable.

TV has given people a very unrealistic idea of what real criminal investigation's all about.

The real world is NOT "CSI: Miami".

BrianR
Typical Liberal Demagoguery, blame the victim, they were in thee wrong place at the wrong time. The perp should get a pass because he was abused as a child. Same Old Song and Dance!

BTW, Jack, I have done jury duty.

A Justice system, not a legal system

If you ever find that an innocent person has been executed, execute all the lawyers involved, it was their fault.

It is the duty of all lawyers in the case, on either side, to make sure that the innocent are acquitted, and the guilty condemned.

Any lawyer who tries to get a guilty person acquitted must be executed. It is their duty to defend, to make sure the trial is fair, but it is also their duty to make sure a guilty person is found guilty.

These days we have a Legal System that was founded and is operated for the ego and the wallet of the lawyers involved. At a law school, even the ethics class is taught by a lawyer, what could be worse.

What we need is a Justice System that is run for the people, not a Legal system run for the lawyers.

CSI
Um...really, I never would have imagined that CSI wasn't an accurate representation of our legal system.

We're talking about a complex system where each and every conviction has it's own variables. Without having a specific situation to address, or much time and space to outline my position, what I stated was the best I could come up with.

The bottom line is that we need to do the best we can to make our system as certain as possible while making punishment timely, and appropriate. In addition, your request that we be willing to forfeit our lives for making a judgment that led to an execution, is not something that most people would allow without evidence of malicious intent, or gross disregard for the judicial system in order to gain the individuals execution. The crime of a mistaken execution is not nearly so heinous as the crime of an intentional act of murder.

George, here's a case for you
Real case, here in Cali.

Robert Alton Harris, after being released from prison on parole for another murder, decided to rob a McDonald's late at night. One poor kid was still there, closing up. Harris executed the kid for a few measly bucks in the till, then ate the kid's hamburger after doing the deed.

Convicted and sentenced to death, we heard all the usual drivel during the appeal process: poor upbringing, abused child, diminished mental capacity, etc. Fortunately, the nature of the crime was so abhorrent that Harris was still executed, but it was tough and go.

Or how about Jack Abbott? Released from prison on parole in New York (in prison for murder, btw) after that idiot Norman Mailer and others wailed about what a genius he was for writing "In the Belly of the Beast", Abbott promptly mudered some restaurant waiter by stabbing the hell out of him.

If the death penalty had been applied the first time in both these cases, two totally innocent restaurant workers would still be alive.

My sympathy's with the victims and the muderer's NEXT victim; I couldn't care less what happens to the perp. Draw and quarter him, as I wrote before.

Hues, I'm actually with you, pard
I wasn't being critical. I was just pointing out that the requirement for DNA is unrealistic in the real world, and most people aren't aware of that primarily because of the way TV portrays these things.

Brain
Brian writes:

" I DO NOT subscribe to the "better ten guilty men go free than one innocent be executed" BS. If the occassional innocent gets it, that's the cost of doing business"

This is fine as long as you realize two things. First, that your beliefs run counter to the very nature of the American system of justice. Second, that any decent defense lawyer could take a comment like that from an investigating officer and immediately establish reasonable doubt in a jury's mind. "Ladies and gentlemen, the investigator has already told you he simply doesn't care if the defendant is innocent or guilty, as long as someone is punished for teh crime." Your credibility in the legal system would be zero.

From what you say, I take it you would be quite content at being sentenced to death for a crime you did not commit? Do I have that right?

Regarding highway deaths. There is a qualitative difference between a state ordered, premeditated killing of another human and a traffic accident. That's simple.

I am not looking for a perfect system. If I were, I would suggest the death penalty be taken off the table entirely. I do not. I do suggest that we have to answer the question I posed in order to determine what safeguards to put in place. Hues, at least, accepts the current system and understands my question.


Brian
I'm clear. I was simply looking at it as if I was to sign off on it, and I should have used a different word than requirement. I simply want to ensure to the best of our ability that those sentenced to death are deserving of it.

Has anyone read Starship Troopers? One of the underlying ideas building the setting is that our society collapsed due to a permissive and ineffective justice system. Public scourging for minor crimes replaced short prison sentences and fines. That I would support that puts me far outside of the liberal, or compassionate conservative camps I'm afraid.

I'd say that it goes well with quick and decisive executions, instead of our current drawn out hand wringing system. Give those who are sentenced to death two years and/or one opportunity to appeal, may they use it wisely.

Phony arguments
All this stupid argument about willing to be executed if an innocent is executed is baloney. As I said earlier, would the opponents be willing to be executed if a murderer is set free and murders again?

In today’s day and age the odds of an innocent being executed is so ravishingly small it is pathetic. First, simple murder no longer carries the death penalty. Thanks to the supreme court one now needs “special circumstances” to be eligible for the death penalty. In most cases what that boils down to is multiple murder. Normally all murder cases are open and shut cases where it is obvious that the defendant committed the murder.

Once convicted there is still a chance that the death penalty will not be applied. And finally once applied, in most States it takes over a decade to be carried out in the mean time the lawyers are working hard on getting the guilty one off on technicalities.

The facts are that there are two reasons for carrying out the death penalty beside the “revenge” that has been applied above. First and foremost once a person is executed they will commit no more crimes. Second all of the available evidence shows that when the death penalty is used the murder rate does go down. Note that is USED, not just “available.

And the “cruel and unusual” argument is hogwash from the liberals. That part of the Constitution was specifically meant to cover the penalty for treason, drawing and quartering. What was known at the time as “torture” as opposed to pouring water on someone or making them listen to bad music.

Sorry, Jack
Your assertion is flat-out wrong, and I have no idea where you got that idea.

You wrote: "First, that your beliefs run counter to the very nature of the American system of justice"

Incorrect. The only thing the Constitution guarantees is Due Process of law. Period.

Secondly, as to "that any decent defense lawyer could take a comment like that from an investigating officer and immediately establish reasonable doubt in a jury's mind. "Ladies and gentlemen, the investigator has already told you he simply doesn't care if the defendant is innocent or guilty, as long as someone is punished for teh crime." Your credibility in the legal system would be zero.

My credibility isn't an issue, as I'm not in that biz anymore. Further, when I was, I was working for, the defense (unfortunately). Thirdly, I never said I don't care whether or not the person is guilty, and that's a very poor characterization of what I did say. If you read ALL my posts, you'll see that I accept the fact that mistakes may happen, and an innocent man could coneivably be wrongly convicted.

What I truly DON'T care about is whether a guilty a-hole suffers or not when he's being executed.

I hope that clears things up for ya there.

Of course, on the upside, Jack
You gave me an idea.

Maybe next time I'm called for jury duty, I'll take a prinout of this thread with me.

That should get me out of there early.

Roe vs Wade
The libs feel fine with the 40,000,000 abortions or death sentences to completely innocent victims, but don't want convicted killers to endure the pain of IV medication? Just ask them during their deep slumber if there is any pain. I can assure you I had no pain from the IV medication or my recent colonoscopy. But their justification is right to choice?

BrianR
Bring back the firing squad and sell chances at pulling the trigger on rapists, murderers, child molesters and other scum.

Come by my blog, picture SNAFU has been rectified.

Brian, I Disagree
The American system of justice is in fact based on the principle of assuring that innocent people are not punished. Why else do you think there is a presumption of innocence. You may not like it, but that is why there are so many safeguards in the system.

Your credibility IS an issue. If you hold a position which would discredit you in a legal proceeding, and believe me it would, then why would you have any more credibility here?

My characterization of what you said is perfectly apt. It's just that you may not have realized the importance of what you were saying. While you would blow off the problem of the state executing an innocent person as just part of the system, others woudl say we need to do much much more to be sure it doesn't happen.

Furthermore, your position is a perfect example of why the death penalty is in retreat. Illinois? New Jersey? It aint' going your way. Why? Because your cavalier attitude toward the death of innocent people, who just happen to be largely black, illuminates the inherent racism of the current system.




Not yet, it hasn't, George
I just looked.

Jack
First of all, to clear it up for you, Due Process is the standard in the Constitution. Yes, there's a presumption of innocence, that's our standard. Once convicted in court, the guy's guilty in the eyes of the law. That's why we have an appeals process and all the rest. Everything else is just so much equivocation and semantics.

Again, dude, pay attention. I'm not an officer of the law or the court. Get it?

And again, your characterization of what I said is total nonsense. I know you libs like to put words in other people's mouths, but you're hearing what YOU want to hear, NOT what I said.

That's YOUR problem, bud, not mine.

BrianR
Try copying and pasting the links, I'll work on it more later.

BrianR
Try copying and pasting the links, I'll work on it more later.

Oh, Jack, Hahahahahaha!
I overlooked your last paragraph, where you resorted to the old "racism" card!

Truly pathetic! And absolutely a HOWL!


Jack
I'm certainly siding with Brian here ( suppose that's not a surprise). Based upon a prior comment that he made "If it can be improved, great! We will. But until then, I'm not willing to suspend appropriate punishment for criminals while we're on the quest."

Also, credibility in a court is not the same thing as credibility for the purposes of a civil discourse over a principle.

BrianR
Isn’t it funny how FORWARD THINKING Liberals ALWAYS bring up arguments FROM THE PAST?!

Yeah, Hues (and Jack)
I guess according to Jack, no cop who testifies has an opinion on the death penalty, or they're all AGAINST it.

Yeah, riiiiiiight.

Surprise, Jack. People who testify, cops, witnesses, jurors, attorneys, judges.... every single one of them have opinions. And guess what, Jack? A lot of them aren't going to agree with yours.


BrianR
"Maybe next time I'm called for jury duty, I'll take a prinout of this thread with me.

That should get me out of there early."
--------
I got one better for you. When your picked for jury duty and during the selection process, when asked the question about if you believe the police are always correct...answer yes. I was called 3 times, answered yes three times and dismissed three times.

ADMITS
If a person who admits to doing a killing and there is no reasonable dought then OFF WITH HIS HEAD. But if a person pleads not guilty and there is a reasonable dought then do the DNA TEST.

Im from FL and I want them to bring back OLE SMOKY. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

We dont need to waste Tax Payers money on keeping someone around for 20yrs after he has stated his guilt and admits to doing these bad things. This is the same excuse LIBs have with not killing killers but they can except the KILLINGS of UNBORN BABIES..Yea I agree change is needed.

DONT FRY ME BRO, DONT FRY ME

Hues
As I wrote to Brian, if that's his wish then he is going about it in quite the wrong way. The trend is moving AWAY from the death penalty. In my estimation that is partly because advocates of the death penalty are failing to address the issue of safeguards. Until that happens,the death penalty will become LESS likely, not more. But there seems to be a resistance to addressing the issues.

The racial imbalance in the death penalty is critical, yet Brian is far too cavalier about that issue. "So a few extra people get killed. All part of the system." Really easy to say if you are white: much more problematic if you are black.

Despite his disclaimer, there are a lot of indicaiton that the system IS racist, and I rarely, rarely even consider saying such a thing. It's more structural than overt or personal though. I am not comfortable with a deaht penalty system that is racially biased nor am I comfortable with arguments that racism just doesn't matter.

Jack, you can address me directly
That way you get the benefit of my direct response, which you're getting anyway.

Your assertion that the trend is moving away from the death penalty is also incorrect. Just because New Jersey banned it doesn't mean much; polling data indicates the support for the death penalty is as strong as ever.

As to "safeguards", the problem is that you antis use the word in such a way that it no longer has any meaning in the real world: impossible standards, etc.

As to your "race card", I give it all the credence it rightfully deserves: zero.

Actually, if you want to home in on something, it's more an issue of economics. The more money you have, the better outcome you're likely to get, because you can afford better lawyers. The "racial" aspect is simply an adjunct of, and peripheral to, that. More Blacks are poor.

OJ's Black -- he got away with stone-cold double homicide.

Poor people get PDs or court-appointed counsel. So what do you propose? Extra points for being poor or Black? A handicap of some kind?


LOL, Kat
Good idea!

What's interesting is that with my background they never know what to make of me. Ex-intel agent, so that should be good for the prosecution. Ex-PI for a defense firm, so I should be good for the defense.

Generally, they just all want me to go away. I'm a Wild Card; they don't like that.


CAN WE AT LEAST LOCK THEM UP?
If we are not going to take that algae-lapping murderer out behind the barn and shoot him -- using the same weapon and ammo that he shot the sheriff and deputy with -- then can we at least lock him and all like him up until they dry up and blow away?

Reading from Family Security Matters published January 2, 2008, "Sanctuary City Advocates Hamper U.S. Law Enforcement," the first sentence is: "A citizen of Ecuador was captured by the New York City Police Department and charged with rape, criminal sex act and endangering the welfare of a child. He was convicted of rape and SENTENCED TO 10 YEARS PROBATION (emphasis mine). The victim was a 12-year-old girl."

I don't know what others think about a situation like that, but I should think that lethal injection would be much preferable to just letting the scumbag out on parole. How long before he does it again? Maybe he's done it already.

And as for the sheriff and deputy killer, as far as I'm concerned he can be fed to the alligators, although he himself might prefer an IV with some soothing juice flowing through his veins.

We must do something to prevent further horrendous crimes by those who are convicted.

Jack
A couple of points.

You asked whether I would be comfortable with Georgetwin on a jury. Personally, if I happened to be on trial I probably would, because as a non-criminal, I have little to fear from a law and order type who would deal harshly with criminals. Seriously, however, that is why there is a jury selection process. The defense can use their strike against Georgetwin and the prosecution can use theirs against you. The process is designed to weed out people who might have an ax to grind. I can say without hesitation that if I were Maureen Faulkner, I would much rather have Georgetwin on the jury than you.

The argument about being executed yourself if you vote to execute a person who later is proved to be innocent is a false analogy (see: Vic @ 3:12 PM). As also pointed out, there is a huge difference between 12 people deliberating for hours or days after weighing all the relevant evidence and making a decision that someone should be executed, and someone deliberately killing an innocent person in cold blood.

I don't buy your assertion that the death penalty system is "racially based" or the implication that if you support the death penalty you believe that "racism doesn't matter." People are tried in individual cases based on the circumstances of their cases and verdicts are rendered based on those same individual facts. There is no process or conspiracy in place that selects black people for capital cases rather than white people. the system is not perfect and we should always be trying to improve it. But like others here, I'm not willing to suspend justice because it is not perfect or while we wrangle over what steps to take next. I believe that approach leads to multiple Mumias.


We need a Justice System

Someone said, "We must do something to prevent further horrendous crimes by those who are convicted."

Yes, change the Legal system to a justice system, and all problems are gone.
======

Those of you who think that a life sentence is a worse punishment than a death penalty, then say don’t execute anyone, because you may get the wrong person.

Well, if I was innocent I would perfer death to life in prison.

Brian, A critical bit of misinfo
SUpport for the death penalty is about where it alwasy has been, EXCEPT when the option if life without parole is included. In that situation, support is declining. You are also wrong about teh trend. Executions are declining, the push for executions is declining, and support is declining.

I am NOT an anti. I have no problem with the death penalty, as long as the system is scrupulously fair. And it isn't.

The race card is NOT irrelevant and the evidence is obvious on teh face of it. That was a major reason cited by Illinois official sin putting their death penalty into moratorium. And the governor was very pro death penalty.

MOney is also an issue. You are correct in that OJ probably walked because he had the money. PD's and other court appointed counsel are notoriously ineffective and underfunded. One Death penalty conviction was overturned because the PD slept through a good part of the trial.

Jack
The key line in your own comment: "SUpport for the death penalty is about where it alwasy has been, EXCEPT when the option if life without parole is included"

The "except" is almost meaningless, as once people understand that LWOP doesn't really mean LWOP, that trend immediately reverses itself.

You wrote: "as long as the system is scrupulously fair" and state it's not. Well, I state that it IS. So that's simply a matter of opinion, then, isn't it? It may not be "scrupulously fair" by whatever standard you've elected to support, but as far as I'm concerned, it's as good as it gets right now. As time passes, I'm sure we'll find ways to make it even better, too. But if you're looking for perfection -- and that sure seems to be the case -- then since that's impossible, you've set an unachievable standard, and the result is the de facto ban on executions for people like you.

That's unacceptable to me.

You then go back to your fixation on racism, yet in your next paragraph reinforce MY stand.

Well, I don't know what to tell you, pard.

BTW, Jack
I'm not really very concerned about what "officials" cite as their reasons for putting a policy forward, in this case referring to "racism".

SCOTUS cited "emanations" of "penumbra" of made-up rights in supporting abortions in Wade.

All kinds of garbage flows out of the mouths of politicians, most of it very self-serving in advancing their own political agendas.

Libs
Liberals need to understand that if they hold the position of leniency and continue coddling criminals to the point of allowing them to remain a part of society, thus a threat to society, then please leave us alone on gun control. If I demand justice, I am an uncompassionate, vengeful, racist. If I pick up arms to defend my family from the very criminals they fought to free, I am a primitive yahoo.
-----
BrianR....excellent blogs and decent biography.

Totally Painless
The perfect method for execution already exists. The gas chamber with a nitrogen replacement system produces the result that the pain freaks are looking for. Most of what we breath is nitrogen anyway so if you breath only nitrogen you pass out and die, no pain , no mess, no needles and no *sshole hanging around to maybe kill again.

Thank you, Kat
I appreciate that.

TruLib
Very reasonable and hard to argue with compromise...yet someone, somewhere will argue.

Yes, Kat
No doubt about that.

BrianR
We can state and debate the hypocracy and double standard talking point, which absolutely would apply and do bug the heck out of me. But what bothers me the most is how the victims are, in essence, punished for being victims.

I had a dear friend whose wife left him. he moved on in life and filed for divorce 6 months later. He then began dating. The ex stalked him, destroyed his property, violated restraining orders, broke into his house, harassed his date, came after him with a bat, and was arrested 8 times. The court finally consolated all of the charges from all of the arrests. You want to know what the judge told him after her attorney complained of excessive police involvement?...stop calling the police so much. In the end she got sentenced to anger management classes. To this day he is harrassed.

Another friend who own an antique store had aher store broke into. The front door glass had wired in it to prevent break-ins. The guy got her from the wire and sued her. He won! And she was told she cannot replace the door with similar materials as it is too dangerous for criminals.

Brian, I can go on all day long with tale after actual tale. Our judiciary system is custom tailored for criminals to avoid any penalty.

Kat, I'm with you
We don't have a "justice system" anymore, as has been pointed out.

I'm old enough to remember the first hint of major problems, a few decades ago, when the discussion of imprisonment turned from punishment to "rehabilitation". Rehabilitation? Like we're supposed to be giving these perps some government-paid benefit?

They have a debt to pay to society, and thus to the victims, to fulfill the social contract that leads to an orderly society. This is why we don't allow blood feuds; society is supposed to step in and exact the appropriate PUNISHMENT.

Rehabilitation be damned. Yank the cords on the air conditioning, cable TV, remove the gym sets, and stick these jerks in a hot, sweaty cage.... or fry them.


Brian..
Oh, you are preaching to the choir! Amen!

And to think on the rare occassion a perp actually stays in the can for any small amount of time, he/she gets a free collage education to help pass the time?

This is why there are vigilantees. Big surprise when justice never goes forth.

You have it exactly right.
To argue against the death penalty because the killers are, after all, human too, is false compassion.

It is the very value we place upon human life that requires murderers to pay the ultimate price. To do otherwise is to set the guilty equal to the innocent and thus to both destroy the distinction between guilt and innocence and to devalue the infinite preciousness of a human life -- since the punishment for murder is no greater than the punishment for lesser crimes.

These vile killers made their choice to kill knowing that death was the penalty for their crime. In choosing to commit that crime they chose their death. If they were competent to make that choice to kill (and if they weren’t they would not have been declared guilty), they were likewise competent to make that choice to die.

I save my pity for the victims to whom the killers denied the opportunity to make such a choice about the course of their lives.

Mother of 4
"It is the very value we place upon human life that requires murderers to pay the ultimate price. To do otherwise is to set the guilty equal to the innocent and thus to both destroy the distinction between guilt and innocence...."
------
You hit it right there! Well said. I will surely use this statement in future arguements against misplaced compassion for the guilty and how it victimizes the victim all over again.

Here the liberals go again
with the "an innocent person might be executed" excuse to justify getting rid of the death penalty. This is just the latest excuse, as it used to be the "it's painful and cruel" excuse. Modern medicine has lessened the pain and cruelty, so a new excuse must be invented. There are many good reasons to employ the death penalty: 1. Justice 2. Deterrence 3. Many of these criminals murder and terrorize other prisoners in jail. 4. Many criminals such as gang leaders and mobsters are able to operate their business even while incarcerated. 5) Some will eventually get out of jail and commit more crimes.

If you want to crack down on innocents being prosecuted, then penalize shoot from the hip prosecutors when they make mistakes. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong (or immoral) with the death penalty.

Yep, CT
An "innocent man" might be imprisoned, too, but that doesn't seem to bother them.

Go figure.

Rehab and prison comforts
The rehab spin, I believe comes from the compassionate conservative/evangelical side of things. They believe that we should give even the worst of criminals every chance to repent and change their ways. There is little to no focus on justice.

The idea of keeping them comfortable, and not inflicting pain, I believe comes from the tolerant, pluralistic, you can't inflict your morals on me, liberals. They're not entirely sure that people imprisoned actually did anything morally wrong, just that they have a different life experience that informs their world view. So how can we cause them to suffer? Sure we may need to remove them from the rest of society, but are they really bad people? Can't we just all get along?

How about we actually mete out justice? What is really wrong with inflicting pain in punishment of crime? What is worse in our society, the difficulties that arise from imprisonment for a minor crime, or flogging? I believe I'd remember the flogging more clearly, and would prefer it due to it being quick as opposed to painless. What's wrong with those who take from society through their crimes being forced to give back in labor camps?

Why is it even possible that a person would prefer imprisonment to free society? Clearly we coddle entirely too much.

New Jersey
The STATE is not anti-death penalty, only the left wing extremists that run the legislature and the extreme left wing governor, John Corzine (he makes John Edwards and Hitlery!(tm) look like staunch conservatives).

Heck, Corzine just proposed doubling the tolls on the New Jersey Turnpike, Garden State Parkway, and Atlantic City Expressway every 4 years, starting later this year. He said it is a good way for New Jersey to get more money, since most drivers on those roads are commercial or out-of-staters.

jury duty
The one time I got picked for a trial, I know I was getting weird looks from the rest of the folks in the Dallas County Courthouse. It was late July of 1985, and I was reading a book by General Sir John Hackett (former commander of all NATO forces) entitled "The Third World War, August 1985".

Aggrivated robbery charge. Black defendant. Trial lasted just over a day. We deliberated for an hour. Guilty. Sentencing phase started after lunch break (why do some trials have a 3 month break after guilty verdict before sentencing phase? Start an hour later!). There, we found out that the perp was on probation for aggrivated robbery when he committed 3 more of them within a month (we were trying the middle one), got caught by a female cop during the 3rd, raped an 8 month prego woman in the one we were trying. Deliberations lasted 45 minutes. Gave him 63 years on our charge.

iandelor
The Sacco and Vanzetti case is a case of innocent people being executed.

Of course, one has to go back over eighty years to find such an example. Finding examples of deaths of innocent people due to AIDS, or train crashes, or wrongful police shootings is unfortunately much, much easier.

The Supreme Court and Pain?
Wouldn't it be great if after deciding how much pain, if any, can be inflicted on a MURDERER they will apply the same judicious thought and decree as it applies to UNBORN HUMAN BEINGS during an abortion?

oh..puh leeze!
I'm sick of the 'an innocent person might be executed' line too. I know a few likely victims of miscarriage of justice sitting on death row now...but two documentaries were made about their case and cooler heads are prevailing to let them free. That case was off the chain from the beginning.
What DOES need to happen, are smarter juries, and allowing more sophisticated people to sit in, via some kind of feed or other means that specific researchers can watch. Just as video is done of interviews with suspects, such options should be there from start to finish.
I worked for the LAPD in the forensic photo unit. Most of John Q Public has no clue of what kinds of people are likely to harm them. We ARE NOT guaranteed lifelong incarceration, nor is it cost effective to do so. Housing and medical care are expenses better served elsewhere. As long as a killer or rapist is alive, they can plead for themselves and are given forums they don't deserve. And there is always someone willing to do ANYTHING to comfort them. Marry them, adopt them, have their babies, get them out, smuggle, or commit a crime. Whatever. They don't stop being dangerous because they are in prison. Hundreds of collateral victims aren't and haven't been worth it.

part 2:
Most criminals caught up in serious time, or death row--haven't lived exemplary lives. Often they are petty criminals with knuckleheaded friends who'll sell them out in a heartbeat. Young folks aren't informed well enough or given enough of a dose of reality on avoiding bad company and acting strange.
Those who were found innocent of capital crimes, were however guilty of plenty else so that no cop could trust their word or that of their known associates. Anti death penalty advocates never really tell that part of the tale.
And it's a legitimate cautionary one.

dumbest line ever...
The dumbest line ever is people who seem outraged and offended that the prison population exceeds two million people.
Even these opinonated souls fail to acknowledge just how many offenses it took to add up to serious time and some people are too hard headed or mean for their sympathy.
I tell them the truth, from a law enforcement perspective. There likely should be another million in prison. Think of who was never caught, and victims never found and how hard it actually is to keep the worst criminals in prison.
Plenty of crimes have been committed brazenly and stupidly, and a trial is an exercise in lawyerly jousting at our expense and that of the victims.
Ultimately, the value of the victim diminishes s long as their violator lives and the criminal's value increases. Something that should never happen.
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