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Tuesday, December 11, 2007
Bill Murchison :: Townhall.com Columnist
Laying a Mitt on the Secularists
by Bill Murchison
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Right. Yes. Mitt Romney, if elected our president, "will serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause and no one interest." Nor should any candidate "become the spokesman for his faith." Yes, naturally.

If such was the point most take-away from Romney's venture at dispelling fears of his Mormonism, well, yawn. What presidential candidate could differ with such a description of the chief executive's role in a nation of many faiths? We have to hope, I think, that Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama would speak similarly.

No, the core of Romney's speech -- viewed as some kind of exam on approaches to dealing with the "religious right" -- was further down in the text. At the Bush presidential library, that core won vigorous applause. One might hope his words -- and the reaction -- will stay with us a while.

With gentility but also some intellectual force, Romney lit into the secularists who -- infinitely more than the supposedly fearsome Bible-wallopers of the religious right -- have forced on us the issue of religion in public life.

Said Mitt: "Religion is seen as a private affair, with no place in public life. It is as if they (were) intent on establishing a new religion in America -- the religion of secularism. They are wrong."

Right -- they're wrong. That's -- as the old radio show had it -- The Big Story. They're wrong. Romney does well to say so in this blunt fashion.

Somehow, my worthy, lifelong profession, the mass media -- following the lead of the cultural establishment -- have made up their collective mind that the evangelicals, the religious-righters, the preachers, the shouters, call them what you will, launched in the '60s some cockeyed crusade to put the Holy Bible in the center of our affairs. Putting it there might not be such a bad thing, but assuredly, that's not what the preachers, etc., undertook.

The preachers didn't start this business; the secularists did. Out of the celestial blue came the news from the U.S. Supreme Court, in the '60s, that the public schools enjoyed no right to allow prayer of any kind or the reading of the Bible.

Along came the justices a few years later to assure us that the Constitution forbade legislative restrictions on the right to abort a pregnancy. That religious-based morality generally disallowed abortion was a matter over which the justices passed in embarrassed silence.

We might not equate these pronouncements -- untouchable because of the untouchableness of the federal judiciary itself -- with assault and battery against religion and, especially, against Christianity. Yet, coming so soon after the comparative serenity of the churchgoing '50s, such developments shocked. And still do.

Just what gives secularists the supreme confidence there's nothing to this religion business? The weight of tradition is on the opposite side. You sense, while taking in the scurryings of the secularist brotherhood, an anxiety to get things done and nailed down lest through a sudden opening in the heavens a thunderbolt should shoot downward.

The brouhaha over Darwin vs. intelligent design gives evidence, if not of fear, perhaps of exasperation with folk who just won't quit wanting to affirm the agency of God in creation. A world without a creative principle -- hence without purpose -- suits secularists well enough. Nor can they see intelligent designers as working at anything short of the subversion of science.

How many Mormonophobes Romney persuaded in his behalf, we can't tell. Give the man credit for at least opening a question that we, the people never face with confidence or enthusiasm: namely, how, in a manner compatible with the constitutional requirement of respecting non-belief in Christianity of Judaism, we avoid kicking the God of the Bible out of history and out of sight. Which looks to be precisely the errand of militant, snobbish secularism.

If it takes a Mormon to make us look squarely at these urgent matters, well, let's hear it for the Mormons. Or, anyway, this particular one.

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Bill Murchison is a senior columns writer for The Dallas Morning News and author of There's More to Life Than Politics.
 
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Good article
Whether or not you are a Romney supporter this was a great speech for America. And hopefully when we come out of the primaries we will have a candidate who will be willing to fight to keep the United States one nation under God.

Solid Article
Very well written article. When will Evangelical's realize that Mitt will be much more friendly to their social conservative viewpoints than Rudy or whoever the Democrats elect. And you can stop already about Huckabee. Huckabee would stand a 0% chance of winning in a general election.

You are confused about secularism
How can you say that secularism is in some way false, but at the same time treat Romney's more enlightened comments (which have secularist character) as true?

When he promises to "serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause and no one interest", this is a secular kind of attitude -- i.e. he is promising not to laud one religion above others, and not to integrate belief of that religion into the workings of the state.

You appreciate his secularist attitude when it comes to leadership. So in what way are the secularists wrong?

The same goes for the schools. Secularism does not advocate the abolishment of all mention of religion in schools. Schools are for education, and children should be educated about religion. It is the promotion any one faith above the others, and the assumption of some particular faith in children, which threatens children's right to freedom of and from religion. Just as a President should not inflict his beliefs on the population, a teacher should not inflict his beliefs on his students; that would not be education, it would be inculcation.

To restrict schools to educating about religion, rather than enforcing practice or belief in a particular religion, is all a modest, properly conceived secularism aims at.

Stop looking for a secular scapegoat
Let's get this straight--Christian sheeple are bashing each other and somehow it's the fault of that evil cult called the secularists?????

Shmuckabee's call for a Christian president just too creepy for words. Ummm haven't the last 43 presidents been Christians? Not a Jew, Muslim or a Buddhist in the bunch.

Mormonophobes
Here we go with name-calling rather than rational discourse.

If Romney was a Scientologist, would we be labeled as bigots by refusing to vote for him for that reason? If he was a Democrat and I refused to vote for him for that reason would I be a bigot?

I vote based on a person's philosophy. I believe that is what everyone votes on. Mormonism is part of that philosophy.

Mitt's electable
The secularists would decimate a Huckabee GOP candidate (the "Christian Leader") in the general election. Mitt Romney has the right qualifications (the only one with non-governmental (Bain, Olympics) leadership experience, a deep-seated faith, a vision for this country's future, and an exemplary personal and family life. He would appeal to the Independents and some Democrats.

Bobsie
Think you hit the nail on the head with "When he promises to "serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause and no one interest", this is a secular kind of attitude".

Secular used to mean civil as opposed to civil as reflected in Jesus' own words on rendering unto Caesar. It is, given the religious clauses of the fist amendment, a sort of limitation on government to religious neutrality, not as some pundits like to twist a limitation on the people.

Secularism did not remove prayer from schools, sectarianism did. Secularism did not nationalize abortion laws, big government liberalism did just as big government conservatism wants to impose other federalizations. Secularism is not opposed to creationist ID in school, just not in the science classroom. The sectarian fight among the religious over religion in politics has nothing to do with secularism.

Great speech
despite what some claim. My favorite part was when he said "Religion is seen as a private affair, with no place in public life. It is as if they ( were ) intent on establishing a new religion in America--the religion of secularism. They are wrong."

D@mn tootin'.

Supremes
The article touched on the Supremes who let a lot of evil out of the box when they usurped the illegal legalized power to amend our Constitution by a 5-4 vote and when they started giving a higher priority to protecting and defending the erroneous decisions of dead judges (precedents) than they do to protecting and defending the Constitution. I want a President who will appoint a different brand of justices, and Romney's speech earned him another look. http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Religious tolerance
Is not only a secular value. The God who causes it to rain on the just and the unjust, beseeches us to reason with him. Render unto Ceasar Christ taught us. Now if only the secular crowd would muster the same kind of tolerance...

Saying Merry Christmas picks no ones pockets, and breaks no ones bones!

confused
This column does seem confused about the nature of secularism in this context. In his far superior speech, Kennedy affirmed his nature as both a Catholic and a secularist. There is no conflict there.

While some secularists are atheists, the secularist belief in this context is just that people should pursue their religious beliefs independent of the government, and the government should not favor any particular religon, or even religion in general. People with faith in their religion should believe that their relgion will do just fine under those circumstances.

In the '60s when things were going along so swimmingly, my jewish parents were attending overwhelmingly jewish public schools in Brookly and starting each morning offering a prayer to Jesus. (OK, my parents were actually doing this in the '50s when they were school age). That is of course not problematic if you happen to be Christian, just as segregated schools before Brown v Board of Education were just fine if you happened to be whites. But there was not anything uppity about blacks roiling the status quo by objecting to something that was wrong. And people who did not want their kids offering a government prayer to Jesus were not starting something by objecting. They were ending something which deserved ending.

Sometimes the secular side has gone too far. But the idea that people should acquiesce to a little government sponsered religion is nonsense, and unamerican nonsense at that.

A very fine article indeed!
When was the last time you heard a speech that was quite so patriotic as Mitt Romney's was. I think it was right after 9/11 most likely. The speeches that were given then by our leaders brought us together as a country, united in one cause to defeat the terrorist. We need to be united as a country or we will fail. Mitt Romney will stand up to the jhadist; you can take that to the bank!

The dollar is falling faster than Newton's apple. We could use an astute business man like Mitt Romney to bring prosperity back to our country. He is the right man for our times.

Confusion reigns
This article muddles many things. A few: First, secularism and atheism are not the same. "Secular" means simply "not having connection to religion." Many who adhere to one religion or another are also "secularists" who want our government to remain unconnected to religion.

Second, to speak of secularism (i.e. not having connection to religion) as a religion simply drains the term of its real meaning, infuses it with another, and complicates conversation on keeping the government neutral in matters of religion. What word would Romney and anti-secularists have us use to convey the concept of keeping government and religion separate?

Third, the internal inconsistency and bigotry of Romney's speech is plain. He champions the liberty of all religions, labels secularism a religion, and then attacks it as "wrong." Kinda chasin his tail, isn't he?

I agree with NSD
"The dollar is falling faster than Newton's apple. We could use an astute business man like Mitt Romney to bring prosperity back to our country. He is the right man for our times."

I worked for a consulting firm for 8 years and was around a lot of people like Mitt Romney, super bright, optimistic, innovative thinkers and a "can do" attitude to problem solving.

People like Mitt are the best investment for the future of America.

If Mitt Romney
is a Social Conservative, then why in God's Name did he facilitate and mandate homosexual marriage in the state where he was chief executive. He just caved in to the judicial fiat of a rogue court.

LAME, YES.

Misconstruing secularism
News flash for Bill Murchison: "Secularism" is not atheism. It simply refers to the idea that the State, wherever possible, should avoid entanglement with the exercise of religion. Government ought not be in the business of promoting, any more than suppressing, religious expression. The Founders had the same idea more than 200 years ago. It sounds like a plan to me.

Too Slick, Too Glossy, Too Clintonian
Still too many questions left unanswered. There's something about Mitt Romney I don't trust. Yeah, he's richer than Croesus with more money than God - while that's not exactly a reason not to vote for him, if he ends up the nominee I will hold my nose to vote for him, but nix on any donations. He talks a good game, and definitely goes with the polls. He changes like the wind. Not very reliable and sort of reminds me of another slickster named Clinton who's running along with his wife this time.

Huck as the Taliban
It is one thing to run on values that have common ground in religion, tradition and natural law. It is another thing entirely to run on the idea that your religion should become the defacto State Religion.

This country will not elect a Pastor in Chief.

If you read Huck's own words He believes that Church (his Church) should run and be the State. State is an extension of his Religion.

Huckabee has stated, "Politics are totally directed by worldview. That's why when people say, 'We ought to separate politics from religion,' I say to separate the two is absolutely impossible".[Huckabee] Huckabee believes in Biblical inerrancy.[Parks]

That makes Huckabee identical to the Taliban and Bin Laden in World View. Their narrow interpretation of Religion should become the Government and force everyone else to comply. That is what we are fighting against in Iraq and Afghanistan. How is Huck's position any different than the Leaders of Iran, the Taliban or Bin Laden?

Parks, Scott. "Huckabee's not preaching to choir;Arkansas governor leads largely Democratic state", Dallas Morning News, 1997-03-09.

Huckabee, Mike (1997). Character Is The Issue. Nashville: Broadman & Holman, 98.

Higene
"We need secularism so that all religions can live together peaceably side by side and to continue believing the various different things they believe without generating social conflict."

Then why do secularists go ballistic over even the slightest expression of religious belief - such as the phrase "under God" in the pledge to the flag? Why do they want to refer to Christmas trees as "holiday" trees? For people who claim to stand for tolerance, secularists are awfully intolerant.

BREAKING NEWS

.....My operatives in the Field have informed me that the Liberal Media has made it's choice ...they have selected Huckabee as their choice to be the Republican nominee...

.....Just before the NH Primary the DNC will begin bussing in "Independent" voters to vote for the Huckster .....COLOSSUS

For Bluepiper: A Bigot Is..
Disagreeing with LDS or Mitt Romney doesnt make one a bigot.

A bigot is one who knowingly or unknowingly insists on presenting time and again false information to descrbe those they dont agree with.

A bigot tells you what you believe and believes he/she knows more about what you believe than you do.

A bigot is someone that has itching ears and craves sensationalzed information of those they dont agree with.

A bigot holds the coat of his brothers while his brothers stone you.






Bobsie, Higene,
Thirty-six years ago, when I was a sixth grader in public school, our Christmas program contained traditional carols, old Negro spirituals, "secular" favorites like Frosty the Snowman and Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, and Santa Claus Is Coming to Town. Nobody was offended, everyone enjoyed it, because it was all simply a part of the Christmas season. Presumably any secularists/atheists/agnostics who had kids attending the school either excused them from the concert and stayed home or had the class to maintain respectful silence, figuring they could endure for the one hour so their kids could have their moment. I don't recall that any were absent. Such music and song was indeed simply a part of the Christmas season that one could take or leave.

These days, you'd be hard-pressed to find any public school even MENTIONING Christmas, much less holding a concert that looks anything like what I remember as a child. They are now called "Holiday Concerts" and if there is any traditional music at all, it is strictly instrumental. The students are not wished a "Merry Christmas", they are told to have a safe and happy "winter break". We [supposedly]can't have Jesus Christ's Name mentioned on the taxpayer's dime, you see, someone might be stupid enough to think he was in church or something. I've had two in public school and our youngest will be "out there" herself in two years, so I see what's going on. And am saddened by it.

Like it or not, it IS the secularists who have successfully drummed Christ from Christmas. That is why I heard more "Happy Holidays" than I did "Merry Christmas"-es when out shopping today, lest I be among the 5% or so who don't celebrate the day so therefore might be offended...

Alive in Him
"These days, you'd be hard-pressed to find any public school even MENTIONING Christmas, much less holding a concert that looks anything like what I remember as a child."

This is horrible! If only there was some place where people could go to celebrate their holidays as they would like. Maybe some other building where people could congregate and put on Christmas programs. Someplace that they might already go to every week. If anyone has any ideas...

Sorry. I don't mean to make fun, but I don't know why people feel that they need their religion to be promoted by government. However, I never minded Christmas shows when I was in school, but I'm an atheist so I also don't mind seeing them go. I think we can agree on one thing, though; I would rather see a Christmas program or nothing rather than the watered down "politically correct" shows that are sometimes put on today.

Well Put Big G
Big G writes: Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 1:54 PM
For Bluepiper: A Bigot Is..
---
I totally agree with you, but they don't get it, perhaps because they are liberals just trying to divide Evangelicals and other Christians and Mormons.

This is a good piece on what we need to work on together.

I Want you to take a peek are my post on Sand Ross's feature today. I think I found a BIG flaw in her facts and timing. I hope I am right.

Cheers.

Mike H
Why don't you go somewhere else when, say, a school has a CHRISTMAS program with CHRISTMAS carols, and leave the other children who want to celebrate CHRISTMAS alone. See, that's what gets me. There are more of us than you Mike and you want to take away our CHRISTMAS festivities. There are secularists and then there are secularists who are poor sports who want to injure the majority by taking their traditions away. Ptooey on you, Mikey.

We Don't Miss What We Don't Value
MikeH writes:
Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 2:43 PM
Alive in Him
---

I am sure you agree that we don't miss what we do not value. But why should we hate what others appreciate that enriches their lives. It does not hurt us in the least. But the Courts were used to deny us Constitutional protections to individual conscience, in effect disregarding Separation of Church and state, so that secularism of a Godless state can dictate morel conscience, which is no conscience..

"Know this that every man is free to choose his life and what he'll be, For this eternal truth is given, that God will force no man to heaven." rephrasing a Hymn

Virtuew and Values Determine Happiness
carbondu5 writes:
Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 3:23 PM
Majorities rule!!!
Clusiana wrote: "There are more of us than you Mike"
---
I cannot think of one more miserable that one who has no value or challenges to meet and overcome. Our very existence would be intolerable without challenges and opposition which are mastered as we learn and follow the principles, by which all of life’s treasures bring stability and flexibility into an environment we can trust.

Secularists do have rights just as much as we. their rights like ours stop at the point of our nose. Between our nose and another person nose is where we need to make concessions in a shared environment. We need to learn to appreciate and respect others in their roles.

Just leave the rest of us alone
Murchison's piece is the typical whiny conservative-Christian screed on how the evil secularists (or atheists, or liberals) are trying to remove God from everything in our supposedly Christian nation. Why the concept of separation of church and state is so difficult for some people to grasp is beyond me. And I also don't know why people like Murchison can't seem to understand that lots of Amercans----both religious and non-religious----simply don't believe that a certain type of religious person---the busy-body, proselyzing, stick-his-nose-into-other- people's-business type---has the right to impose his prayers and religious displays on the rest of us in public places. Just worship in your homes, churches, and religious institutions and LEAVE THE REST OF YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS ALONE and stop trying to set up what amounts to a not-very-stately state church.

Romney's speech
I was most impressed with Romney's speech. As a Southern Baptist I do have issues with the LDS church. But we are not electing a national pastor. Everything I see about Romney impresses me. Good family man married to the same woman for almost 40 years. Well rounded experience in both business and politics. Willing to stand up and take hits for what he believes. Statesman like in both appearance and speech. If it comes down to a choice between him and Hillary I know where my vote is going. And as to Huckabee can we throw Arkansas out of the union? No more former Arkansas governors please! (Just kidding on the throwing out Arkansas thing). One of my local churches staff ministers is from there. Being in Mississippi we joke about our neighbor to the west a lot.

Carbondu5, MikeH
Like it or not, 95% of Americans celebrate Christmas. Most of that number celebrate it as the Nativity of Our Lord. Even the Federal Government acknowledges Christmas to be a legal holiday. Word to both of you: If you work for the gov't, you can go to work instead of using my tax dollars to fund a free day off!

Otherwise, get it straight: Kids singing CHRISTMAS carols in school does NOT constitute the organizing of a church. Nobody reasonable thought so in my day as an elementary student, and nobody reasonable thinks so now. Read your First Amendment again, slowly. I pay more in taxes than you likely earn; how dare you tell me that the money I am forced to pay into the public school system means my child can't sing Silent Night in that same school!!

The word "holiday" is a shortening of the descriptive noun "holy day". Are you sure you really want to use that word, given the connotation?

Let's see you wrap your heads around *that* one, if you're really that concerned about any kind of spiritual ideas rearing their ugly heads this Christmas.

A blessed CHRISTMAS to you both.

Clusiana
"Why don't you go somewhere else when, say, a school has a CHRISTMAS program with CHRISTMAS carols, and leave the other children who want to celebrate CHRISTMAS alone."

Well, I'm in my thirties so I don't really hang around grade schools anymore. By the way, if you read my post closely you would see that I never minded Christmas programs.

"There are more of us than you Mike and you want to take away our CHRISTMAS festivities."

I don't remember trying to take away your Christmas festivities. Though, I did get a little drunk the other night. Did I do something then?

"There are secularists and then there are secularists who are poor sports who want to injure the majority by taking their traditions away. Ptooey on you, Mikey."

Hey, I celebrate Christmas. I just don't celebrate the christ part. (Pssst, it was only tacked on to a pagan holiday anyway.) So please have a Merry Christmas this year. Just don't expect to see me fight to keep the government promoting your religion. Oh, and its Mike, by the way. Michael can work to, thank you.

Big G
Says A Bigot Is..

"A bigot is one who knowingly or unknowingly insists on presenting time and again false information to descrbe those they dont agree with."

Well, I haven't seen this or done it, so I have seen no bigots on Townhall, nor am I one. Nothing I have presented about the LDS is false.

"A bigot tells you what you believe and believes he/she knows more about what you believe than you do."

Again, I haven't seen this on Townhall nor have I done this. So again, where are the bigots?

"A bigot is someone that has itching ears and craves sensationalzed information of those they dont agree with."

I am assuming you are making reference to something on Townhall or something by me, yet I am at a loss to know what it is, since there has been no examples given, and I know I haven't done what you charge.

"A bigot holds the coat of his brothers while his brothers stone you."

Again, you make a general statement but it fits nothing that has taken place in these columns.



Overdosed
I do believe this country is hurting itself -- or rather, many of its citizens are hurting the country, with this grandiose overdose of religion into and onto everything. Like many, I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe that I am saved because of my faith.

But I don't believe that I am Jesus' personal representative or spokesperson here on earth, and I don't believe in the interjection of religion, religious beliefs or even overtly religious values into the political arena.

For that reason, I have lost just about all respect for the way Mike Huckabee is campaigning -- as if he DOES have a direct line to God, and it close to insinuating such. And the more I watch Mitt Romney's behavior -- not his religion or his voting record -- but his campaign behavior, the more I find to like. Wilson54 says it well -- there is very little not to like in watching how Mitt Romney handles himself, especially during this time of near-persecution. He handles it with grace, civility, courtesy and gentility.

As for AliveInHim, you have way too much anger in you to be presenting yourself publicly as a Christian, which apparently you must be according to your moniker. You tell people, "Get it straight," and "try to wrap your head around that one" and "I pay more taxes than you likely earn" -- and yet you imply that you're a Christian??? You're a caustic and insulting Christian, if you are one. You help many people to make exactly the points that Wilson54 and JohninOregon have made. You might want to rein in the anger a little. Jesus got angry at sinners, but you seem to get angry because your children are wished a safe and healthy "winter break" -- and there is an issue here???

Bill - Mitt's Mission was to
inform americans that he is an american running for president while being a faithful mormon, who will remain true to his faith, but that americans should not consider his faith an issue when casting their vote. VERY BOLD INDEED! Actually, I think the mormon missionaries who knock on doors uninvited are bolder because they actually tell you directly - if you want to become a saint and later on become a god - please join the Latter Day Saints Institution. I have not yet joined but I respect them more for their honest about what they believe - Mitt's speech was so fantastic that.....his polls went.....down.

Romney's Recovers
Actually, I just learned that his institution of the Latter Day Saints no longer allows polygamy (one man marrying multiple wives). Did this fine institution end polygamy before or after they allowed blacks to join.....not sure when that happened but in the general election women voters and blacks will definitely vote for Romney - ELECTABLE???? No endorsement will make americans overlook his shifting values and the membership values of his religous organization!

Sarah: What is your problem? What do you

mean that you "just" learned that the LDS no longer allows polygamy?

Where have you been, and what false notions have you been laboring under... and for how long??

Polygamy ended in the LDS Church many, many, many, many YEARS ago.

You DO know the earth is round? Right?



Bot, A General Elections Forcast
with Romney will look like this....
20% of the voters stay home
44% vote for Hillary
36% vote for Romney

Why? Because conservatives will not vote for either candidate they will stay home instead.
Hillary picks General Wesley Clark as VP so fears about her Iraq policy are addressed and she gains the moderate right crowd who view security as important. Romney gets the Hillary Haters and Smittened republicans. I assure you that americans are more likely to vote for a flip flopping liberal than a flip flopping mormon missionary. The 20% who stayed home were credited for making Bill Clinton president when he was elected in 1992 - if republicans nominate Romney, say hello to a Clinton/Clark presidency.

Anne - I know
the earth is round and Mitt and members of the Latter Day Saints will inherit the earth as saints or gods and procreate eternal worshippers - wow! No wonder they need multiple wives, still not sure why blacks were not allowed to join this fine institution and when they did, they were not allowed to take leadership positions - Like I said, women and blacks will be happy to vote for Saint Romney in the general election because these practices have stopped - right?

Sarah, one more thing. You know that the

LDS church is NOT running for pres.?

I am NOT a Romney supporter at this point, but it has NOTHING what so ever to do with the fact that he is a Mormon.

It has soley to do with his politics and the Mass. state mandatory health insurance, and that he was pro-abortion until recently....


But, IF Romney gets the Republican nomination, I will vote for him.


What exactly IS your problem????




Sheryl, Mitts business
credentials are not a problem, that is why he should remain in the business world. His record in public policy makes him unpredictable as a president, e.g. - what does he believe about abortion? stem cell research?, immigration? the powers bestowed upon a president need sound judgement - he does not seem to have settled in one position on major issues that affect american lives daily. His lack of clarity on basic concepts at age 60 makes him a bad choice for republicans and americans in general! Google his multiple positions and image the fun democrats will have show casing them to all americans - he will loose credibility left, right and center making Hillary president with 42-45% of the vote.

NSD, Mitt will stand up to
Jihadist's with what? Joe Smith's literature? Since you think he will be great with the military, why hasn't he or his 5 sons served in our military? Because they were busy being missionaries. Okay, he might convert jihadists into mormon's - A Missionary Minded President will not be a good commander in chief! BTW, after Hillary picks wesley clark for VP, the Romney ticket will look even more pacifist - No thank you to a mormon missionary in the whitehouse!

Sarah: If you have a problem with Romney

such as "...his record in public policy makes him unpredictable..." then stick to that.

The political aspects.

But you are doing no one any good, least of all yourself, by bashing the LDS church and its members here on Town Hall.

It's clear that you know very little about the LDS, and you're accomplishing nothing by bashing the church or its members.







just what gives secularists
"...the supreme confidence there's nothing to this religion business? The weight of tradition is on the opposite side."

Maybe it's that the weight of reality is firmly on our side?

Primitive people who don't know what the sun is have a sun god. Primitive people who don't understand rain have a rain god. To the true believers on this site, I'll ask the same question I might ask any liberal advocating their usual marxist drivel: how many times do you have to be wrong before you finally hang it up?

Since you're such a brilliant forecaster
Sarah, what is your forecast of the 2008 election if Huckabee is the Republican nominee?

Huckabee Questions Mormons’ Belief
NV-Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks in an upcoming article, “Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/huckabee-support-h inges-on-churches



TriciaCT holder of truth....
shouldn't Joe Smith have that somewhere in his literature? Ask the Huckabee campaign or just check the recent polls and project. Why don't you instead state what is wrong with my projection instead of re-directing the issue to any other republican candidate.

Anne, Romney's Record and Religion
are both problematic. His record makes him unpredictable because at age 60, most people have a consistent belief about important, basic issues like abortion - 4 positions in 5 years - is a bit much, even compared to Hillary's Iraq position within 6 years. His religion became an issue when he decided to give his "religious freedoms speech" turning it into a campaign issue. Why did he need to discuss his religion? Was anyone confused about him being a mormon presidential candidate (infact Hugh wrote a book about it!). Romney would have us believe that his religion is so unimportant that he decided to give a speech about it. And while saying that he is a mormon who will remain true to his religion, he asked us not to consider this mormon faith when voting for him - simply put - he is an unpredictable person who should not be trusted with the whitehouse! What he believes is relevant to his presidency. Did you notice how many of Mitt's Missionaries were quick to give out mormon websites for confused americans to understand their faith better? that kind of "evangelizing" does not belong in the whitehouse. No to a mormon missionary in the whitehouse!

Al, you are in the 36% who
will vote for Romney....still not enough to avoid a de-facto Hillary Presidency. Romney is bad for republicans and americans on all fronts -damp him!

Sarah, I've read your blathering
long enough.
If you knew HALF as much about the LDS Church AS YOU THINK YOU DO, you'd still know NOTHING about it.

I've read all of your posts for quite a while and said nothing, but now I'm telling you, learn what you're talking about or shut up.

You have told lie after lie after lie against the church. You're just as annoying, and equally as ignorant about my church as Talent Scout is.

Sarah, are you claiming to be *prophet*
who can forecast elections? Do you even have a degree in political science, for instance?

You do realize, or maybe not?--that polls taken this week or last, or even 6 months from now mean nothing come election day November 2008.

Perhaps you would like to finally admit who YOU think *should be* the Republican nominee?

Or, more likely, you're a liberal *spoiler* who wants the WEAKEST Republican candidate to be Shrillary's (or Obama's--whomever the Dems select) opponent--so you are deviously trying to take down the STRONG Republican candidates, one at a time.

If that is your aim, you would naturally smear the strongest anti-Hillary opponent first--which would be, of course, Mitt Romney.

On the other hand, you might just be the virulent anti-Mormon bigot which you present yourself as.

Sarah, Sarah, oh my:
Sarah writes: Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 9:11 PM
Bill - Mitt's Mission was to
inform americans that he is an american running for president while being a faithful mormon, who will remain true to his faith, but that americans should not consider his faith an issue when casting their vote. VERY BOLD INDEED! Actually, I think the mormon missionaries who knock on doors uninvited are bolder because they actually tell you directly - if you want to become a saint and later on become a god - please join the Latter Day Saints Institution. I have not yet joined but I respect them more for their honest about what they believe - Mitt's speech was so fantastic that.....his polls went.....down."

You still never answered my question about your eating problems in SLC. When did you eat there?

I liked the part where you say, "I have not yet joined but I respect them" (Does this mean that you are thinking of joining? If you are, you will need to read, study and pray in order to qualify as a member.)

You can get the missionaries to deliver a Bible or a Book of Mormon for free; and you can meet some very nice young men, whom you say you respect. Just logon to LDS.ORG to get your copies.

I have a grandson serving on a mission in South Korea. He loves it and is growing spiritually.

I also was a missionary back in 1951-1953; then I joined the Army; remember Korea?



Thou Shall not Lie
Do Mormons believe in the 10 Commandments?

I evaluate by what a man does rather than his stated values. Truth telling is one of the most important values. But, it is a major casualty in the political world.

So, does Romney's beliefs in Mormon/Christian values hold firm under political stress?

I thought so and had great respect for Mitt until I saw his attack ad in Iowa on Mike Huckabee. The ad distorted Mike's position and action on illegal immigrants.

I saw the debate. Mitt stood right beside Huck and appeared to be listening to Huck as Mike told America he signed a bill allowing the CHILDREN of illegal immigrants to qualify equally with the CHILDREN Arkansas citizens.

Yet, in the ad, approved my Romney, only the words "illegal immigrants" were used. No acknowledgement that Mitt heard or understood what Mike had said.

Even if Mitt wasn't paying attention then, he should have checked the facts out before paying and approving the ad.

This is a clear example everyone can understand about how Mitt's values stand up under the pressure of the poll results.

I am looking for a leader who won't buckle under pressure, a leader who knows what he believes and sticks to his beliefs no matter what. Such courage freed 25 million Iraqis. It gave a nation hope.

I want that kind of hope here in America too this time around. I won't be voting for Mitt. He doesn't fit the bill. And, it's not because he's Mormon. It's because he clearly doesn't really believe in the Ten Commandments, the real basis for our successful society. He seems to believe in the mammon part only.


Oh Arby, shame on you!!!
You said in your previous post;

"Like many, I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe that I am saved because of my faith.

But I don't believe that I am Jesus' personal representative or spokesperson here on earth..."

Ehhh, excuse me? Are you REALLY a believer in Christ or just a typical Buffet/Cafeteria Christian? How can you profess to be a believer and put out this tripe as a statement for your faith?


The Great Commission

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

- Matthew 28:16-20
NIV

To ALL followers of Christ, this is not optional!! Christ did not give you the gift of salvation to keep to yourself! You are commanded to share your testimony about the goodness of God in the effort to win souls for Christ- you aren't responsible for converting them to Christians, but you are accountable for planting the seed, extending the opportunity for them to make the CHOICE. With your attitude, people you walk by every day are potentially folk who will fall through the cracks because you feel that boldly sharing the opportunity for salvation is somehow an infringement. And God will hold you accountable for that, so I suggest you rethink your stance, for your sake and the people that cross your path.

And in case you wonder if I do this, of course I do- I just did so, addressing you and all the others who may happen to read my post!!
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