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Wednesday, November 29, 2006
Ben Shapiro :: Townhall.com Columnist
Would you let your child take this flight?
by Ben Shapiro
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You are sitting in the concourse of an airport, preparing for your flight, when out of the corner of your eye, you spot six Arab men praying loudly in Arabic.

"Okay," you say to yourself, "that's a bit disquieting. But praying isn't terrorism."

You glance at your watch. It's time to board the plane. Sure enough, there's the boarding announcement. Suddenly, you hear the six Arab men chanting loudly. "Allah! Allah! Allah!"

"Okay," you say to yourself, "maybe they're still praying."

You board the flight and take your seat. You notice that two of the Arab men sit at the back of the airplane, two more sit in the middle of the plane on the exit aisle, and two sit at the front of the airplane.

"Okay," you say to yourself, "perhaps they couldn't get seats together."

A few seconds later, you hear a stewardess explain to another passenger that the six Arab men moved from their assigned seats to the new seating arrangement. And it seems that the two Arab men up front are now asking for seat-belt extensions.

"Okay," you say to yourself, "they don't look overweight. But perhaps they have indigestion."

Except that the two Arab men quickly tuck the seat-belt extensions underneath their seats. Then they begin speaking in both English and Arabic about President Bush, the war in Iraq, al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.

You spot another passenger signaling a stewardess. Minutes later, the six Arab men are escorted from the airplane.

Secretly, you're breathing easier. You make it to your destination without further incident. But when you turn on the television that evening, you see the six Arab men telling the media that their removal from the flight was a reflection of American xenophobia and ignorance. "I never felt bad in my life like yesterday," says one, apparently the leader of the group. "It was the worst moment in my life when I see six imams, six leaders in this community, humiliated. . . . In America we have no freedom to practice our faith, to do our faith."

A spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security's Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties is telling the media that the incident will be investigated. A Democratic congresswoman from Texas is explaining that the terrorist attacks of September 11 "cannot be permitted to be used to justify racial profiling, harassment and discrimination of Muslims and Arab Americans."

"Okay," you say to yourself, "maybe my perception was skewed by my fears."

Months pass. The ACLU steps into the fray. They sue the airline on behalf of the six Arab men. The airline quickly settles the case for a few million dollars. The head of the Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation declares victory. "This will send a message to the airline industry," he jubilates.

It's been a year since the incident. You are sitting in a concourse of an airport. You look up from your newspaper and see six Arab men praying loudly. As you board the flight, you hear them shouting: "Allah! Allah! Allah!" After stowing your carry-ons, you notice that the six Arab men have split into three groups of two: two at the front, two in the middle, two at the rear. The two in front are asking for seat-belt extensions. They are not overweight.

"Stewardess?" the man next to you calls. "Stewardess, I'm afraid that there are six Arab-looking men on the plane who are acting suspiciously." He describes their behavior.

"Oh, yes," the stewardess says. "Don't worry about them." The man turns back to his magazine.

The woman across the aisle prods him. "Frankly, sir, I'm a bit surprised at your close-mindedness," she says.

The cabin doors are closed. The plane taxis. Take-off is smooth.

And about half an hour after take-off, the two Muslim men at the front of the plane strangle the stewardesses to death.

The two at the back of the plane pull out knives they have smuggled through security.

And you realize that we no longer live in a safe world where the ACLU and Muslim sensitivities should be a first concern. You realize that your first priority should have been getting off that plane. And you realize that intentionally or unintentionally, the six Arab men who were pulled off the plane a year ago aided and abetted the six Arab terrorists who are taking over your plane today. They preyed on your liberal sensibilities, your fears of being called a "racist."

Then you hear the woman across the aisle. "Okay," she says to herself, "maybe they're just getting up to use the restrooms."

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Ben
" The woman across the aisle prods him. "Frankly, sir, I'm a bit surprised at your close-mindedness," she says."

Oh, it wouldn't be quite that polite. The comments you would hear would be: "Frankly, sir, you are an ignorant, moronic, racist who hates Muslims and you are blowing this terrorism thing up in your own deluded mind."

From there it would only get worse. I don't need to repeat all the liberal ACLU types of comments made to anyone who thinks there could be a real threat.

"Would you let your child take this
flight?"

No. That was easy. Next.

"And you realize that we no longer live
in a safe world where the ACLU and Muslim sensitivities should be a first concern. You realize that your first priority should have been getting off that plane. And you realize that intentionally or unintentionally, the six Arab men who were pulled off the plane a year ago aided and abetted the six Arab terrorists who are taking over your plane today. They preyed on your liberal sensibilities, your fears of being called a 'racist.'"

Nicely done, Ben.

How stupid can we be?
Some Muslims want to kill us or at least die in the attempt.

Until the hew and cry from Muslims is to stop this behavior they all should be viewed as killers and fanatics.

Call me a racist if you wish but I prefer to error in my favor.

Chicago wants to ban a nativity based movie ad from a Christmas orientated Festival because it might offend someone.

Can America become any more stupid? Throw these Imam's off the plane and tell them to walk home.

The world is not their cigar, we have to share and nobody gets to be top-dog in this country.

Go pound sand. I'm fed up with this cultural-specific tolerance. You get just as much as I get, that's it. Period.

I vote for a Muslim-Only Airline. GREYHOUND BUS.




The imams
did it on purpose, of course. It was a test run, to see what they could get away with while being obvious. Has America been sufficiently intimidated into silence? Can we by the grace of Allah resume our holy jihad without the inconvenience of pretending to be sane Moslems instead of arrogant scum? That sort of thing. The conference they had attended was, in part, a seminar in not just grievance mongering, but grievance manufacturing. I think those lectures weren't taped. Where's YouTube when you need it most. Taking care of Michael Richards, I guess. He's a Jew, you know ... or maybe not ... but he played on on television.

US Airlines -- hmm, I wonder why the imams chose that airline? Was American Airlines all booked up for the holiday? -- USA did exactly the right thing. True, the Peace Religion did get propaganda points, what with all Americans being so racist and anti-Moslem and stuff, but the message was also sent that they are being watched. Hurrah.

I kind of wish I'd been on the plane. I'd have sat next to one of them and engaged him in a conversation. I would have been faultlessly polite. He would have ended up assaulting me. Trying to.

J
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/

How stupid
can we be? I commented at length on this incident on a previous thread. I attempted to point out that the behavior of these muslims was calculated to cause discomfort to other passengers. They were successful.


They subsequently charged that their treatment was an example of anti-muslim bias, and completely unwarranted. Now they have won several million dollars and intimidated the airline.


What they did was committ an act of terrorism. They tested just how far they could go in challenging the willingness of politically correct Americans to aquiesce to their outrageous behavior. They scared the other passengers. They scared the airline. (Several million dollars paid to these creeps will certainly result in the reluctance of ALL airlines to intercede if another group pulls the same kind of stunt). That means passengers will just have to fly frightened, or get off the plane.


Another poster on that thread insisted that these muslims were not the ones we need to worry about. She repeatedly claimed that once these creeps had been searched and found to be unarmed, then that proved they represented no threat to anyone. The clear inference was that the Imams were in fact discriminated against.


At one point I think I said that it was clear that we would not agree on how these muslims were treated. She refused to see the behavior of the muslims as anything beyond praying, and would not respond to their bizarre behavior.


I attempted to show restraint in my comments, and I congratulated herfor engaging in the debate without the usual moronic name calling of most of the leftists who pollute this site.

Since then I have given additional thought to that discussion. I think that the woman was so deliberately obtuse that she, and others like her, represent a greater threat to us all than those muslim slime balls. Anybody who can disregard the almost daily demonstrations of muslims around the world, triggered by almost any imagined insult, is dangerous.


The ravings of the Iranian leader, who almost daily screams to the world of his desire and intention to destroy Israel, can not be misunderstood by any rational person. Amedinejad, or whatever his name is, boasts of his countries progress in developing nuclear capability. He is committed to the apocalypse.


In spite of all of these things we still have leftists in America, some who post on this site, who absolutely REFUSE to acknowledge the danger. Are they insane? Are they brainwashed? I don't think it really matters. They are a major threat to America.

Duh!
"It was the worst moment in my life when I see six imams, six leaders in this community, humiliated. . . . In America we have no freedom to practice our faith, to do our faith."

Umm...yeah. The reason for this is that too many of your co-relionists have "practiced your faith" by killing people. Until you rein them in, feel free to "do your faith" behind closed doors. You know, the way American Christians are expected to.

Skip
Your post made me think of something. I think the imams may have done it on purpose, not for a test run as some have suggested, but for the money.

It costs alot to indoctrinate and train the next wave of murderous zealots. Funds donated to Islamic charities with connections to terrorist organizations have been frozen by our government. The NSA is monitoring their international communications.

I think they are smart enough to know they can fund their illicit activities by soaking US corporations via the legal system with aid from a healthy dose of liberal guilt.

I'm new to the conspiracy theory game. Maybe some of our resident "truthers" can help me out on this one.

So there ARE some clueless out today
Nosmokes being one of them. I was beginning to think that there was a big walmart protest going on somewhere, since no other thread had the likes of nosmokes on it....

Religion of Peace my clavicle
Everyone needs to read Robert Spenser's books

The Politically Correct Guide to Islam and the Crusades

and

The Truth about Muhammed.

I am not Mr. Spenser. I have never met him. I do not know him. I do know that he speaks truth to the lie that Islam is anything but a hedonistic, violent cult with little or nothing to do with God.

Flight
Our President said 4 years ago that we welcome the ROP. The MSM has shown their respect for the President by using the ROP phrase in a large part of their reporting on terrorists. If Bush supports the ROP, the MSM supprts the ROP then Americans should support the ROP. If our plan is crashed into a building it is "God's" will and we should rejoice.

beez
I've read part of the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades. It really is an interesting look at Islam and how vastly it differs from Christianity.

Consider this: Christ asks us to proselytize and spread the Good News of salvation. Muhammed demands that his followers "Kill the infidel wherever he is found" (Koran 9:5, I believe, though I'll have to check that reference just to make sure).

Christians are expected to tell people the Truth of salvation through Christ. Those who accept Christ, and keep God's commandments will probably go to a heaven of "happiness" being in the presense of God.

Muslims are expected to demand conversion and subjugate or kill those who refuse. Muslim law states that Muslims must rule the world under Sharia law and that, while other religions may be allowed to practise they (A) must pay an infidel tax (called, I believe, the "Jizya") in a humiliating manner, (B) must keep their practises private and secret, (C) must not proselytize, especially to Muslims, (D) may not build new houses of worship or even improve or refurbish existing ones that fall into decay. There are many references to making war on non-believers, conversion by the sword (not in those words, but in meaning) and jihad not as a personal struggle to live like a good Muslim, but to actively struggle against the enemies of the Prophet. The prohibitions against lying, stealing, and murder (for example) only apply if the victim is a Muslim. Infidels are not protected by Sharia law.
And what do you get if you are a good Jihadist Muslim who "Martyrs himself" (an oxymoron, mind you) in "defense" of the faith by murdering infidels? A hedonistic "paradise" filled with all the pleasures you are denied on earth. The Muslim paradise isn't the presense of God as it is in Christianity, it is wine, women and song. Literally. (I don't have the source material for this handy, but if you read the Politically Incorrect Guide, the author spells them out pretty well.)

And remember: Islam does not mean "Peace" it means "Submission to the will of Allah."

HJG

Islam
When the religion of peace shows sensitive to the feelings of American citizens, then there may be some hope to abate the violence that right now is such an inherent part of this religion. The leader of Libya gave up his pursuit of weapons because he knew there was a better strategy to defeat the Great Satan, that is to work within the system. As this case illustrates, they have been very successful. America is on its way to seeing the flag of Islam flying over the White House.

Americans, don't be silenced.
We see how these Imams played this out intentionally. These people know darn well what raises suspicions. They had a fun scaring people and then they cry racism. It was all in the plans. They do it for a number of reasons. One to finance their activities, Maybe Kind Heart, the front charity for Hamas was benefited from their settlement, it's to weaken and intimidated once confident Americans into second guessing themselves to help their brothers in the future who may be actually planning to hijack, to further make the left in the Country make policy to end any measures screening and detecting muslims. We already know that CAIR is in partnership with ACLU in undermining our security in the phone wiring calls from overseas. They are playing out their agenda to turn us into bumbling idiots and that P.C. is their tool. Nosmokes has completely bought their BS. Too much of that Rosie O'Donnell I suppose.

Next attack
And they're probably using the proceeds of their easily settled, politically correct lawsuit to fund their next attack, while they laugh at our stupidity.

Twilight Zone

Ben Shapirio's article is such that at some point I expect Rod Serling to step out of the cockpit and say "Ladies and Gentlemen, for your consideration a flight to PC hell....."

But wait this could really happen
(fade to twilight zone theme music"

nosmokes
Nosmokes also could be Muslim.


Right On, Ben!
Ben,

I couldn't have put it better myself. In today's Washington Times, air marshals and other airline safety officials are pretty much saying the same thing. In a post-9/11 world, c.s. (common sense) must supersede p.c. (political correctness). Yet, according to the Times piece, CAIR rep Rabiah Ahmed surmises that the six imams' behavior was (get this) "misunderstood." I wonder what the weather's like on her planet.

Great article.

nosmokes
"if we got out of Iraq and Afganistan they would live in peace" or something close to that. Funny 9-11 happened we werent in either place. But i guess it was "Israels fault". I agree with most that it was a dry run. These folks may be a lot of things but dumb isnt one of them. They play our system like a 10 yr old on a playstation. Ann Coulter said it best last week. If all muslems said they wouldnt fly us air , which airline would the rest of us use? I believe we will be hit again , and no the white house didnt tell me to be paranoid. I read! and when someone or some group tells you over and over they are going to kill you and do so at every oppertunity i tend to believe what they say.

nosmokes
I think (hope) that nosmokes was being sarcastic...

Would I let my kid take this flight...?
NO!

upon further reflection....however,
that would mean the terrorists have won. And, they have, haven't they?

OH!!!! Silly me...
the dems are in charge now...things will be getting safer....(sarcasm/off)

Mayor Nosmokes...
of Craaaaazy Town.

Keeping an eye on muslims is not racial profiling. It is suspect profiling. Big difference - end of story.

The 6 imans and flight insurance
I was not really so concerned when I saw the 6 imans kneeling and praying. However, when 3 of them got up and went over to buy flight life insurance, I began to get worried.

Sorry to not be PC enough, but I decided then and there to take a later plane...

Still afraid huh.
Like I have said before, the terrorists have won. We are the laughingstock of the world. It's juvenile, but many people like pushing the buttons of the stupid and I think that is just what these guys are doing. I see people taking advantage of situations that harm others all the time at the store, at work, and on the road.

Of course I would fly on that plane children or not if I really wanted to go on the trip. If I drove, the risks are equivalent to having a 9-11 attack every month. I am more concerned about the people on the road who cannot drive and talk on their cell phones at the same time than someone poking fun at our misplaced fears.

The responses I read above are just going to make this sort of thing more common. Wake up and get on with your lives and not be so very afraid. Stop listening to that buffoon Cheney and cowering over the threats. Regain the confidence that made this country great rather than finding reasons to hate others.

The threats to our safety are on the rise by negligence of our government to take care of things here at home. We don't control gangs, we can't maintain our roads, we selectively enforce the laws to suit the powerful, we fail to educate our children. Start getting your personal act together at home and focus on what you can deal with, like your misapplied fear.

The Imams
No -- I would not let my children board -- nor would I. Political correctness is likely to get more of us killed in the name of Allah. Evelyn

GunnyG
I will stand with Patrick Henry!

Prayer Time
If the imans are so concerned about praying, why didn't they schedule their flight so it would not interfer with their prayer time? Yes, we are stupid. I would have been scared to death had I been on that flight and I bet many passengers were. Shame on you "pc" folks - ignorant is what you are. Read the recommended books and get your heads out of the sand.

GunnyG,
I don't know how anyone could explain what these Imams were doing with any more clarity than you did, I don't think what the Imams did could not be viewed as anything less than sinister.


The fact that some people apparently NEED to ignore the threat represented by these muslim creeps is scarier than the jihadists.

Whatever one wants to say about
American Muslims, generally, it must be said that they are politically astute and extremely aware of the affects of the news media on public opinion.

I believe this little episode in the airport was a diabolical calculation based on the fact the dems, who are clueless when dealing with our enemies and now have control of the congress, will bend over and grab their ankles when any charge of civil rights abuse arises. The radical Islamists know this and will magnify, if not fabricate, incidents to beat down and intimidate the public at the same time that a democrat congress won't be able to pass laws fast enough to elevate every bearded, turbin-wearing, person of middle-east extraction to Sainthood.

When you have weasels like Pelosi in charge of the House, and Reid the Senate, we are indeed in supreme danger of losing our sovereignty.

To Nosmokes
You commented:
[We're all on this planet together, and achmed wants peace just as much as joebob. we all want a place where we can raise our families and feed and clothe them a(sic) and educate them and bring them up in an atmosphere of love and hope for a future.]

Where do you get this information? You are assuming that everyone is just like you, motivated the same, with the same goals.

But there are plenty of very vocal "achmeds" like al Sadr, and Zahwahiri, and Bin Laden, and Achmadinejad who have told us exactly what they and their followers are devoting their lives to, through their writings, their training manuals, and their repeated communications to the world. Their goals for their children have nothing to do with peace and food and clothing and love and hope. They make it plain that their children are warriors in training, whose hope is self-inflicted "martyrdom" and the destruction of the infidels--including non-radical Muslims.

Read "The Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright (no friend of Bush and the Iraq war, by the way).

Your naive assumptions will be exposed for the whistling in the dark that they are.

I'll Take Xenophobia

.....Ben...

.....They call us the Great Satan and say they want us dead.....then they sue us for discrimination and racism?...this is beyond the twilight zone...

.....Ho Chi Minh said he used our democracy and freedom to defeat us...this is the same playbook being used by the ACLU and CAIR ...

.....Down with Political Correctness...up with Xenophobia... Protect America... Discriminate/Profile .....COLOSSUS

nosmokes
must have started smoking the funny stuff again. Either that or he hasn't come down yet from his trip to Wonderland.

Would you.....this flight?
NO!!! I have worked in Saudi Arabia and am 200% certain that I, as a Christian, would never have been allowed to pray at the Yanbu Airport. Heck, non-Muslim women were required to wear scarves over the top of their heads in public.

I am also certain that if I have been touching a Christian cross and saying prayers outloud with my eyes closed, or reading the Bible I would be being sued right now by some ACLU cockroach for the "separation clause."

If the Muslims were "offended" I can recommend a number of sand-lands that they are more than welcome to return to.

PC and diversity has gone far beyond the pale and must be stopped.

Yep
I think I'd like to be on a plane with Gunny, especially if a "takeover" was attemped. The American public is currently the frog in the shallow water of a frying pan. The enemy is slowly turning up the heat but the frog is blissfully enjoying the hot tub. Vigilence to all...

Why is the MSM hiding?
When it comes to telling the story about radical Islam and its global war against America and Americans the MSM is cowering in the corner. Its long since past the time for Chris Matthews, Tim Russert etal. to get off their obsession about trashing America's war efforts and step up to plate about our real enemy.

In war there is no disaster greater than misunderstanding and underestimating your enemy. Such an education agenda by the MSM however would take backbone and a large dose of political incorrectness. The MSM falls short on both counts.

Shapiro's article is right on. We need the "moderate" Muslims to speak out. When did the radical Muslims who committed the atrocities of 9/11 say their prayers?

There is an old saying "if you go about looking for weeds, you will only find weeds" The MSM in reporting on America's war efforts spends all its time looking for weeds. There are thousands of great stories out there of our military working with Muslims in the middle east in a positive, uplifting way, of our military performimg heroic deeds evry day etc.. This is going to be a long and difficult global war. We ain't seen nothing yet. Fasten your seat belts.

Gunny G
Absolutely correct. A probe. The Islamists in our midst are first and foremost Islamists and have no intention of becoming anything less.

Fourteen centuries of Islamic conditioning wedded to the Arabic notions of tribal insularity and superiority insure that our secular culture merely provides additional motivation to dominate it.

It is a curiosity that when the West was more identified with its Christian heritage than to its secular and Enlightenment inclinations, Islam was contained.

Right on, Ben!
This column is a great illustration . . . should be forwarded on and on and on; even a dumb liberal whose IQ is about 70 (oops, sorry, that was redundant) cannot miss the point here.

GunnyG
There is a 4th option; DO UNTO THEM FIRST!

Religious tolerance?
Does that mean you can use your religion to annoy a trapped audience?
Can anyone do that?
Oh! I see, just Muslims?

Those Imams singled themselves out for special interest be their conduct. They should have spent a week in jail for the inconvenience to other passengers and be put on the "No Fly List".

I am not quite ready to assume Dhimmi status yet.
Surely some PC Democrats would like to help the Muslims practice their religious freedom at the expense of OUR freedoms though.

FOR ANY DOUBTER
http://www.prophetofdoom.us/

modernone
the airlines are looking for some some good air marshall volunteers.

We volunteer You.

Oh wait... I did say Good...

Great Article Mr. Shapiro
I stopped flying public airlines shortly after the government implemented the "cosmetic security proceedures" at the front to simply pacify the traveling community in to believing they are safe. Yet over all security seems to me is seriously lacking in the other areas. They never talk about the over-all security of the airports particularly the "behid the scenes" areas. I only hear about how we are no longer to bring items ranging from toe nail clippers to various drinks. I cant help but to feel that this is all simply cosmetic or "feel good" security. Which I am sorry to say has seriously damaged my ability give my trust out especially when it comes to areas that involve my life. Since 911 I decided that if I cant get their by private means I dont need to be getting there. Simply put. I dont like being luled in to a false sence of security.

All obervations considered...
NO! I would not let my children on the plane.
BTW: "we" all mentally profile everyday; it's called due diligence.

Perhaps it was a test, if so, "we" passed; removed possible/probable threat; "we" are viligent. (yeah.)

ACLU is sooo "Gloria Allred".


This is pretty scary
You people are frightening!

What you people are spouting is no different than declaring the equivalent of their Jihad. What good comes from this hate? Are you taking the fight to the street? Internment camps? Lynchings? KKK?

You are such hypocrites. You spout your various religious tirades against the left and then write this screed against others. I would rather fly with a plane load of Islamists than with you. You are the ones that can not be trusted. Someone looks the wrong way at you and you will go over the edge and endanger everyone on the plane.

Stay home! Don't go out! Home school your children in your hatred but keep them at home! It is not safe outside, an Islamist in a Mercedes might try to run you over. Hide! Shop only on the internet, there are Islamists at the mall and at WalMart so they can have the Chinese send their money to Iran. Don't be around these people.

Be so afraid you never have the opportunity to act on your hatred! Protect the rest of us by never leaving your house! Declare yourselves unable to contain your hatred and I a sure people will send you money so we do not have to work with you and endanger our personal safety.

I sincerely hope that the portion of Americans that feel the way you do is as small as the percentage of the members of Islam the terrorists represent. Show some self control, consideration, and intelligence and take your fear and hate to another site.

I have a cinfession to make
I voted for a Muslim for congress.

I had my choice between Sheila Jackson Lee (the obnoxious, stupid congresswoman who went public against profiling after the incident) or a Muslim.

So I voted for the best of two bad candidates -- the Muslim.

spell checking =
"viligent" should have been vigilant

modernone
there is a difference in being afraid all the time , and taking time to see the possible dangers around you. When im not reading articles and posts i really dont think about this stuff (i'm sure i'm not alone in that) but that doesnt mean we should just act like the people that continually tell us they are going to kill us should be ignored. I don't disagree that driving is way more of a risk but if you get on a plane and people (any people ) are acting up , yes i think getting up in the middle of a flight and chanting in a foreign language is not to be tolerated. Then i dont think we are out of line to bring the subject up. The way you get from the 1st wtc bombing and the second is to remain silent.

modernone?
R U trying to usurp my freedom of speach? OK 4 U. I'm calling Gloria.

Gunny G

it boggles the mind (ok, maybe not, considering) to think the Kumbaya crowd hasn't figured it out yet that it takes two to cooperate, not just one. only one side is doing the cooperating here and it's time we stopped. give it back in spades. profile everyone who looks suspicious, period, but especially those who even LOOK like they might be part of a terrorist organization.

i would not have sent my child on that plane....ok, maybe my USMC son.

the radical islamists don't want any part of peace with us because it goes totally against the most vile book out there, the koran.
there will never be peace with radical islamists because they don't want peace no matter how much cowtowing we do to appease them. all they want is what Gunny G posted above....our conversion, short of that our dhimmitude, short of that, our death. nothing else. and no amount of group hugs is going to do this. the dhimmicrats and MSM are puppets being played by CAIR and the ACLU and are either stupid for not realizing it or for realizing it but still allowing it to happen. either way, it's unAmerican.

i'll stand w/Patrick Henry, too! i bet he wasn't PC either.

I sure am glad
to hear most of the responses here. It tells me there are many of us out there who will remain vigilant to protect ourselves. And, if the airlines become too afraid of lawsuits that they decide they can't remove people who display behaviors that pose a security threat, we will just all get off that plane. Try to sue the passengers for getting off. The ACLU will probably try though. What a laugh.

Yeah, I'd want to be on the plane with GunnyG too.

Modernone,
You are the one who is filled with hatred.
The rest of the people here are merely looking to protect themselves and their families. I don't see where that has anything to do with hatred.

Ironically your hatred of anything Christian is showing. You are most welcome to get on the plane with the Muslims. Have a good trip.

Swimming with sharks...
increases your probably of being bitten by oh I'd say 100%; dosen't mean I'll not do a scuba adventure; I'll just not knowing swim with sharks.

Another thing
I wanted to say is that, except for a couple of exceptions, everyone here would line up behind another Todd Beamer, whoever would take his place, and say "let's roll" and everyone would do what Beamer and the other passengers who joined in did on Flight 93, make sure that plane got taken down.

But to answer Ben's question NO I would not let my child on that plane either.

GunnyG
Good post.

Another thing I would add is that when was the last time a group of Christians hijacked a plane and flew it into a tall building killing all on board?

I must have missed that story for someone to be more afraid of a plane load of Christians.


Maybe someone else
already said this, but what do you think would happen if say for instance, a group of Christians with their priest, preacher, minister,or rabbi were to hold a prayer session at the airport?

Hmm...let me think. Oh yeah, the ACLU would sue them all for offending people by putting their religion in all the other passengers' faces.

I'm not scared


I'm MAD not scaared of flying with those imams or even their "students".

I'm also glad to see most of the reactions posted above - that they are vigilant, and even willing to fight on board/in flight if the need arises. It bodes well in my thinking.

Ed

Terrorist Tactics
If there were going to be a terrorist attack and there were some Muslim men praying loudly they would most likely be a diversionary tactic to draw the attention of the security forces away from the ones who were really going to carry out the attack because a good terrorist would not want to draw attention to himself but blend in. The terrorists are not going to use the same trick twice if they want to succeed because they depend on surprise. The next time it might not necessarily be on an airplane though if it were the perpetrators are not going to be easily spotted so they might use Black Muslims or Caucasion Muslims. Arabs can resemble Mexicans so they are infiltrating Mexico and teaching their operatives to learn Spanish and the culture there then they are crossing the border dressed like Mexian illegals and setting up new cells to plan new attacks. If we are to busy looking for Arab Muslims we might get a rude surprise in next attack. The Arab Muslim profile should not be ignored but it should not be the catchall profile for the next big terrorist attack.

Wrong Question
"Would you let your child take this flight?" is the wrong question to be asking. The question that we should be asking, and the one most relevant to the actual events of the case is, "Would you let the Imams hanging around the airport praying, screaming Allah's name, ignoring the seat numbers on their tickets and sitting instead in strategic locations, asking for seat belt extensions when none were needed, criticizing the US and praising Osama Bin Laden; would you let THEM take this flight that your child is also on?"

And the answer, for both me and the passengers and crew of that plane, was, "Hell NO". Why should I have to eat the cost of a plane ticket because there are a bunch of crazy muslims on the plane? What should I do? Buy another ticket for another flight, and just hope there aren't any crazy muslims on THAT flight? Hell No.

I applaud US Airways for having the courage and concern for their sane passengers to kick the bums off the plane before it took off. And if it had ended there, US Airways could count on my business in the future. But if they pay these bastards ONE RED CENT of apology money, forget it. US Airways has nothing to apologize for. Call it racial profiling if you want. If it keeps the crazy muslims off my plane, I'm all for it!

I don't think of this as a test-run, but as a de-sensitizing move. These Imams were intentionally acting like they were about to blow up the plain, just so they would get thrown off. Then they pitch a hissy fit about it, in the proven style of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and make the airline look like the bad guy. When they do this for real, the terrorists are going to be much less conspicuous. But by then, the airlines will be so thoroughly chastized for kicking these OBVIOUSLY insane jackasses off that plane, that they won't DARE make a move on relatively innocent-looking middle-eastern passengers. And the plane will go down. This time into the White House, or the Capitol.

The government needs to step in here real quick. The President needs to say, yes, the flight crew acted in a reasonable and responsible manner to ensure the safety of the flight and its passengers and has nothing to apologize for. Congress needs to pass a resolution praising the actions of the flight crew. The US Airways board of directors needs to take that money they were going to give the Imams and instead divide it up amongst the flight crew as a bonus, except they can't say it's for "uncommon" bravery, or for going "above and beyond the call of duty", or anything like that, or they might give the impression that a flight crew is not EXPECTED to go that far to protect their passengers.

Regards,
Trevor

Trevor
"I don't think of this as a test-run, but as a de-sensitizing move."

That is a very good observation Trevor. I like that one.

Like some other posters do I am going to shamelessly plug my new blog. Please come visit.

Peppermint
While you shamelessly plug your blog you need to tell people;
You get to a blog by clicking on any underlined name.

We have a lot of casual visitors who don't know that.
Now I will go see what kind of mischief you have been up to.

plane religion
I was on a Paris to JFK flight with a planeload of obviously seriously Hassidic Jews, (discerned by their garb), who performed various religious operations including covering their heads with long wrappings, heavy chanting and turning, all while blocking the aisles of the plane. No one protested although access and sound nuisance was high. Was it because the non performers in the area were outnumbered? Where is the respect for others' rights during these religious moments? And what is the place for religion in society?Now I see I should have sued the airline.

The note I sent to INVESTOR RELATIONS
http://www.usair.com/awa/content/contact/investor_relations.aspx

Actually gets read, as opposed to Customer Service:

Wanted to thank you and your flight attendants for acting appropriately with the 6 Muslim imams. (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=would_you_let_your_child_take_this_flight&ns=BenShapiro&dt=11/29/2006&page=full&comments=true)
I understand you have received criticism and lawsuits. Don't pay them off. Don't pay them any mind. My company and my family will be using your airline as much as possible as a reward for your common sense approach to an obvious probe or money-making scheme.

I also think that a company that has its act together like this is worth investing in, and will be doing so shortly.

Thank you for renewing my faith in US Airways.

Peppermint writes:
Wednesday, November, 29, 2006 1:08 PM
GunnyG
Good post.

Another thing I would add is that when was the last time a group of Christians hijacked a plane and flew it into a tall building killing all on board?

I must have missed that story for someone to be more afraid of a plane load of Christians.


They didn’t hijack a plane. They armed both sides of a war between Iraq and Iran. It was called Iran Contra. All the good Christians were pardoned from any wrong doing and no one was ever held accountable for the gross breech of domestic and international law.

Some Christians to this day still cannot figure out why some in the Middle East hate us.







Pragmatism
We should wake up and smell the coffee: Muslims want us dead. We should be very aware of Muslims on commercial aircraft.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Why are some Americans so insistent on providing Muslim terrorists with US Constitutional rights?

Why do people like Allred insist on filing civil lawsuits when there simply is no standing to sue?

ANSWER: These people are simply anti-American. For whatever reason, they hate this country and the people in it. It doesn't matter why they hate us.

Observer
"I was on a Paris to JFK flight with a planeload of obviously seriously Hassidic Jews, (discerned by their garb), who performed various religious operations.... No one protested... Was it because the non performers in the area were outnumbered?..."

Well, my guess is: none protested, because no airplain, either in France, US or anywhere else in the world has ever been hijacked and flown into buildings by a pack of even the most annoying Hassidic or other Jews.

Also, let's observe this: nobody in that US airport protested, when 6 muslim clerics prayed. Although it was probably annoying people around them. It's their behavior on the plane, that caused people to be very afraid and kick them out, namely:
1) sitting in strategic positions instead of assigned seats
2) asking for seatbelt extensions, when none of them looked like they needed such extensions
3) Using a foregn language, where the only words others understood were: "Al-Qailda" and "Bin Laden".

There is a lot of demand today about being respectful to the feelings and sensitivities of minorities (especially, the Muslim minority). But it has to be a two-way street: minorities should be respectful to the feelings and sensitivities of the majority.

Ben
yes, Ben, they hate us, so it MUST be our fault. Just like it's every murder victim's fault for being killed and every rape victim's fault for being raped. (As for the last one, a lot of "men of faith" from muslim countries you are so-o-o set up on protecting would absolutely agree with it)

By the way - selling weapons to Iran and Iraq was wrong, right? Nobody got punished. Terrible. Those nasty republicans!

What about GIVING FOR FREE materials and technologies that enabled a very despotic and unpredictable regime to make nuclear weapons? Like, say North Korea? Was it wrong? Are you demanding to start criminal proceedings against Carter and Clinton? If not - why?

Nosmokes
Gee, projecting much?

It's cozy, isn't it, to think that everyone wants just the same things that you want? Cozy and delusional.

Modernone, the ONLY Hysterics
I am seeing here come from you and Ben, but Especially from you.

Ben~ you want to tell us how it was our fault when muslims were raiding our ships in the early 1800s? Or how it was Europe's fault when muslims took over 2 million white Europeans into slavery in the two centuries prior to that?

I guess two wrongs do make a right
Pro-Westerner writes:Ben
yes, Ben, they hate us, so it MUST be our fault. Just like it's every murder victim's fault for being killed and every rape victim's fault for being raped. (As for the last one, a lot of "men of faith" from muslim countries you are so-o-o set up on protecting would absolutely agree with it)

By the way - selling weapons to Iran and Iraq was wrong, right? Nobody got punished. Terrible. Those nasty republicans!

What about GIVING FOR FREE materials and technologies that enabled a very despotic and unpredictable regime to make nuclear weapons? Like, say North Korea? Was it wrong? Are you demanding to start criminal proceedings against Carter and Clinton? If not - why?
____________________________________________

No, were are not always wrong- but like we said in the Navy- one ah sh...it erases 1000 that a boys.

We armed both sides of a war. You don't see a problem with that..they (yes the republicans) lied to Congress and the American public about it- so much for the "rule of law."

The negotiations between us and N. Korea were done in the light of day. No lies, no secrets. It was ratified by the Republican controlled senate. It was working too. Continuous inspections of all facilities- until [go ahead and scream,] until the bush admin breeched the agreement. Hard line policies beget hard lines policies…
_______________________________________________
GunnyG writes:[Or our humanitarian efforts and aid in all of Turkey's earthquakes?]

Turky is our ally by the way. Just last night there was a report on how disqusted they are with US because of the way we have screwed us this war. And, for the way we treated their special forces team that was treated like common terrorist- when they are on our side.
_______________________________________________
You're right, some AMERICANS can't figure out why they hate us. I say let em rot.

Yes, with public opinion wanting to kill all Muslims, I can see why ya'll find it hard to understand why so many are hating us too.

Ever heard of objectivity?

______________________________________________

Hysterics????
Otter writes: Wednesday, November, 29, 2006 3:24 PM
Modernone, the ONLY Hysterics
I am seeing here come from you and Ben, but Especially from you.

Ben~ you want to tell us how it was our fault when muslims were raiding our ships in the early 1800s? Or how it was Europe's fault when muslims took over 2 million white Europeans into slavery in the two centuries prior to that?
_________________________________________________
If I thought you had a point.

Are you looking at both sides?
The Christians never attacked anyone?

Sandita
"It's cozy, isn't it, to think that everyone wants just the same things that you want? Cozy and delusional."

I like that observation and how you put it.


Pep
Ironically your hatred of anything Christian is showing. You are most welcome to get on the plane with the Muslims. Have a good trip.
________________________________________________
This is not hatred?

Aren't you the one yesterday that wanted us all to get along- as long as it was what you wanted?

Ben
"Pep" (That's cute. Seems you must like me.)
"Aren't you the one yesterday that wanted us all to get along- as long as it was what you wanted?"

No, Ben that was Farmers Wife. I would think your huge intellect could keep things straight.

And no Ben, I didn't post hatred. I just merely repeated what that person said and told them to have a good trip.

Now if you don't think there is anything to be worried about getting on a plane with a bunch of Muslims why would you think what I said was hateful? I merely wished the person a good trip with his friends.

You need to lighten up Ben.

Did you know Ben, that blame never gets anyone anywhere? You can blame America, republicans, bugs bunny, anybody you want all day long, but it doesn't get you anywhere.

Why not ask yourself what you can do to help?
Since you were in the service how about adopting a serviceman and writing him? How about sending care packages?

You can come on here everyday and put people down and insult them whatever if it makes you feel better and more superior. I hope you get whatever it is you need by doing this. But, I wish you would try to be a little more productive and hope for all of us to get through this nightmare.

By the way, come visit my new blog.

Still at it are we.
I believe it is the responsibility of government to provide the first level of defense. I am dismayed at our government's inability to successfully identify risks to our safety in the US and act accordingly. As a result, one should be vigilant just like being a defensive driver, or locking your doors, or leading a neighborhood watch. Failure to do so can kill you but that is not what I see in these posts.

Brittan has been far more successful, as have Israel and some of the Arab countries, in finding and prosecuting terrorists. This is probably why the leaders of Al Qaeda have turned their attention to Europe and the middle east rather than us. They have won here.

The one attack has caused the Americans to put themselves in a box of fear, enormous debt and divided the country. This is even more than Osama said he wanted to achieve.

If there is a threat that is real, one should defend themselves. I have a great deal of respect for the people that stood up against the terrorists on 9/11. I only hope that I could do the same under the circumstances. On the other hand I do not run in fear every time I see an abortion protester thinking that they are going to bomb a nearby building or stop buying on the web because most ID thieves are on the internet.

I do not hate Christians as someone said. I do dislike those who parade their hypocrisies like fools but that goes for anyone of any religion or moral position. Fortunately, this only represents a few in any given religion or group.

What I read here, by many but not all, is not vigilance but vigilantism and bigotry against a couple billion people. That is not only ridiculous but foolish. If they all wanted us gone, we would be gone. It only took box cutters for 9/11.

Oh, and GunnyG, DavidMac, and others, thanks for reinforcing my point.

DavidMac
"Why do people like Allred insist on filing civil lawsuits when there simply is no standing to sue? "

Well, we all know she's exploiting the situation just for the money and the next "abused" person who comes along. She does everything to get her face on a TV screen so all will know where to go when they have a lawsuit they want to file.


Peppermint writes:
Peppermint said: [Now if you don't think there is anything to be worried about getting on a plane with a bunch of Muslims why would you think what I said was hateful? I merely wished the person a good trip with his friends.]

I never said that. I think diligence is a good thing. Mixing it with a generalized hatred of all Arabs is not. But I would tend to think it is human nature, let alone common sense to be wary of the actions as stated in this article. But...
Ben Shapiro is also an alarmist- the second half of this article came solely from his mind- not facts.
_________________________________________________
Peppermint said:[You need to lighten up Ben. ]

What? I asked you a question. Why do I need to lighten up? It was not rude, accusatory, or hostile.

_________________________________________________

Peppermint said: [Did you know Ben, that blame never gets anyone anywhere? You can blame America, republicans, bugs bunny, anybody you want all day long, but it doesn't get you anywhere.]

Is it blame or accountability? Allowing incompetence to continue does us no good. Allowing an administration to continue after blatantly screwing everything up does us no good. Hiding from the real facts does us no good.

Should we all just shut up and let it deteriorate?
______________________________________________

Peppermint said: [Why not ask yourself what you can do to help?
Since you were in the service how about adopting a serviceman and writing him? How about sending care packages?]

A care package? Really, you think that is what our service members need? How about real VA benefits- which the bush admin attempted to reduce. How about real benefits for the N. Guard, which they don't have.

How about insuring that our government does a competent job when they send them into war? Rumsfeld used cost cutting measures in this war- against all professional advice. Or, were those Generals just spewing liberalism? Those cost cutting measures cost us a lot of lives and treasure.
__________________________________________________
Peppermint said:[You can come on here everyday and put people down and insult them whatever if it makes you feel better and more superior. I hope you get whatever it is you need by doing this. But, I wish you would try to be a little more productive and hope for all of us to get through this nightmare.]

Who have I insulted? Speaking out against this admin is productive. The Middle East is broken. We are all worse off for it. And that is based off of the last Security Report.

The pure hatred of all Arabs, the ignorance being purported by the far right is NOT productive. It makes all of us indistinguishable from those ya’ll fear so much. It lessens our nation, our values, and our country.
______________________________________________

By the way, come visit my new blog.

Ben
Whatever you say...
I'm just going to leave you to yourself.

Well of course
Peppermint writes: Wednesday, November, 29, 2006 4:37 PM
Ben
Whatever you say...
I'm just going to leave you to yourself.

_____________________________________________


Because a plethora of ideas is always bad.


Ben - I get it...
Everything bad that has ever happened in this world is the fault of republicans. Katrina, earthquakes and tsunamis included.

To your points (from the bottom):
1. "You are most welcome to get on the plane with the Muslims. Have a good trip. This is not hatred?"
------------------------------------------------
No, this is not hatred, this is sarcasm.

2. "The Christians never attacked anyone?"
-------------------------------------------
For religious reasons - not since crusades, it would be about 700 years by now.

3. "I say let em rot."
-------------------------------------------
The person making comments was not talking about killing all muslims. He was talking about stopping giving them aid every time they have a problem. For a simple reason: despite western countries coming to their aid all the time, we are only getting hate in return.

4. Turkey, the dear ally, is mad, because of the problems Americans have in Iraq. Let it be the biggest of American problems! Their special forces team was treated badly? Tough luck. In the beginning of Afganistan mission 4 Canadian soldiers were killed by friendly fire. From a US pilot. Don't you think it's worse? Unfortunately, such mistakes happen during wars. And everybody planning to be in the Army, especially at times of war, should be prepared for it. It does not mean that such mistakes should not be investigated, and responsible people should not get the most severe punishment if they are negligent.

5. "like we said in the Navy- one ah sh...it erases 1000 that a boys."
-------------------------------------------
I would love to reply, but can't understand this phrase. Could you please write it in correct full-word English?

6. "We armed both sides of a war"
---------------------------------------------
So? Iranians were officially the enemy of the United States. Iraq under Saddam was our enemy, too, as it turned out (when Saddam invaded Kuweit). Two of our enemy countries were destroying each other. Call it a neo-con, theo-con or whatever con twisted logic, but I call it "smart strategy".

7. "they (yes the republicans) lied to Congress and the American public about it"
-------------------------------------------------
When you are at war, some information should be classified. It extends to more than a name of a corrupt CIA official, like Valerie Palm. You can't let all the public know every single detail about every operation. Because our enemies do read our newspapers and do watch our TV. If we want to keep secrets from them, we'll have to keep secrets from the public.

8. "Continuous inspections of all facilities- until [go ahead and scream,] until the bush admin breeched the agreement"
--------------------------------------------------
Well, looks like these inspections were not working that well. Because it takes years, if not decades, to turn civil nuclear facility into a military one. Quick question - if you suspect that somebody might turn from peaceful nuclear power plant into bomb factory, why give them the capability at all?

By the way, how did Bush breach the agreement? By getting tough on North Korea? I remember other liberal bloggers accused him of not being tough enough. Can you decide which one is it?

Just a thought - if your wise prophets (Clinton and Carter), aided by Republican Congress (no screaming, please - I have no loyalty to parties, just to my beliefs), did not GIVE OUT such technologies in the first place, we would not have a problem in North Korea.


Middle East is broken...
Sure, it is. Have been for a while. And not only Middle East. In Sudan, for example, about 2 million people were slaghtered and starved to death in the last 20 years.

In about 10 years of Iran-Iraq conflict about 1 million people died.

Arabs (muslim ones) were committing acts of terror, like hijacking planes, in the 1960-s and 1970-s. Or murdering a bunch of athletes. Or starting civil wars (Lebanon).

Until muslim people, in their overwhelming majority, don't change attitude - that is, stop trying to invade and enslave people of other religions or different versions of their own religion, this and any place where muslims live (Kashmir, Tailand, Chechnya) will continue being broken.

Ben posted that,
"The pure hatred of all Arabs, the ignorance being purported by the far right is NOT productive."

Maybe not, Ben, but I'll bet there are a whole lot more Arabs who have "pure hatred" for Americans than there are Americans who hate Arabs.

No American ever slaughtered 3,000 Arabs who simply went to work one day.

No American ever walked into an Arab school and took teachers and children hostage.

No American ever planted a roadside bomb that blew up an Arab school bus.

No American deliberately targeted and blew up little Arab children and non-combatant Arab women.

No American believes that Arab women should be subserviant and completely compliant to men (and deserve to be beaten or stoned if they aren't).

Ben, how much aid did the Arab countries give to the Hurricane Katrina victims as compared to the American aid given to the Pakistani earthquake & S.E. Asia Tsunami victims?

Ben, do you get the big picture? Arabs ain't nice people in general, while Americans are, on the whole, generous, caring and tolerant.

Last, but certainly not least, how many Americans died to keep South Korea and South Vietnam free from communism totalitarianism, and to free the Afghani and Iraqi people from Islamofascism? Did the Arabs do anything? Yes, some did fight in Korea (notably the Turks), but GENERALLY, Arabs have done little for humanity other than try to extinguish it.


DavidMac
Wow!
You are impressive! What an excellent post and reply.

Ben
"Because a plethora of ideas is always bad. "

Now where did that come from? I never said any such thing. I feel really sad for you, that you see everything so black and white.

I know you are going to accuse me of "hating" Muslims when all I want is a safe place for my grandchildren to grow up in. Safety and survival is what this is about, Ben, not hate.

But,I can never convince you of that so I am not going to even try.

btw, you didn't like my idea of sending the soldiers care packages. I know my nephew really appreciated all the ones he and his fellow marines got. He never complained either when he was in Afghanistan. And, beleive it or not, the Afghans loved the soldiers.

Pro-Westerner
Pro-Westerner writes: Everything bad that has ever happened in this world is the fault of republicans. Katrina, earthquakes and tsunamis included.

Again, I never said that. But, I do and have made it a point to distinguish between republicans and the neo-conservative movement. They are not really the same. ===============================
Pro-Westerner writes:To your points (from the bottom):
1. "You are most welcome to get on the plane with the Muslims. Have a good trip. This is not hatred?"

No, this is not hatred, this is sarcasm.

Really. I couldn’t tell=======================================
Pro-Westerner writes 2. "The Christians never attacked anyone?"
For religious reasons - not since crusades, it would be about 700 years by now.
Two points: One, I don’t think so. Religious persecution made it to this country as late as the 1600. Not to mention Catholasiim’s “white man’s burdon” to save the tribes in Africa- Where most tribes were wiped out for not converting.

Second: In this war, their was a general giving speeches about “My God being bigger than their God.” Bush promoted him. He traveled the continents and torture followed him – Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin. Regardless of what we each think about God- that this general did this sent a message to the Arab world that this was indeed a crusade.
======================================================
Pro-Westerner writes 3. "I say let em rot."
-------------------------------------------
The person making comments was not talking about killing all muslims. He was talking about stopping giving them aid every time they have a problem. For a simple reason: despite western countries coming to their aid all the time, we are only getting hate in return.

Pick any story from town hall, go to the comment section and take a serious look at what the people are saying. There is a pure irrational hatred- pure and simple.
==============================================================
Pro-Westerner writes 4. Turkey, the dear ally, is mad, because of the problems Americans have in Iraq. Let it be the biggest of American problems! Their special forces team was treated badly? Tough luck. In the beginning of Afganistan mission 4 Canadian soldiers were killed by friendly fire. From a US pilot. Don't you think it's worse? Unfortunately, such mistakes happen during wars. And everybody planning to be in the Army, especially at times of war, should be prepared for it. It does not mean that such mistakes should not be investigated, and responsible people should not get the most severe punishment if they are negligent.

They are mad because we have endangered them. We are an ocean away- they are on the front lines, they have been our ally for 50 years, and the pure incompetence that this war has been waged with has threatened their security- YES, we should be concerned with how our allies view us.
============================================================

Pro-Westerner writes 5. "like we said in the Navy- one ah sh...it erases 1000 that a boys."
-------------------------------------------
I would love to reply, but can't understand this phrase. Could you please write it in correct full-word English?

Wont don’t you understand- Most of the Arabs appreciate us, but that does not mean they appreciate how we are waging this war. Like Turkey- they are on the front lines of this- We screwed up- BIG TIME. It doesn’t matter what our intentions were. It doesn’t matter what we did 10 years ago. It matter what is happening now.
=======================================================

Pro-Westerner writes 6. "We armed both sides of a war"
---------------------------------------------
So? Iranians were officially the enemy of the United States. Iraq under Saddam was our enemy, too, as it turned out (when Saddam invaded Kuweit). Two of our enemy countries were destroying each other. Call it a neo-con, theo-con or whatever con twisted logic, but I call it "smart strategy".


Your facts are all wrong. During Iran Contra, Saddam was not our enemy- he was our ally. We were overtly arming him while covertly arming Iran- then we used that money [from the illegal sale of arms] to wage a war in S. America. Just this year, the Kissinger tapes came out of him okaying death squads down there- great policy- makes the world trust us more.


Pro-Westerner writes 7. "they (yes the republicans) lied to Congress and the American public about it"
-------------------------------------------------
When you are at war, some information should be classified. It extends to more than a name of a corrupt CIA official, like Valerie Palm. You can't let all the public know every single detail about every operation. Because our enemies do read our newspapers and do watch our TV. If we want to keep secrets from them, we'll have to keep secrets from the public.


Negative- we were not at war. And even so, you do not lie to Congress about it.


Pro-Westerner writes 8. "Continuous inspections of all facilities- until [go ahead and scream,] until the bush admin breeched the agreement"
--------------------------------------------------
Well, looks like these inspections were not working that well. Because it takes years, if not decades, to turn civil nuclear facility into a military one. Quick question - if you suspect that somebody might turn from peaceful nuclear power plant into bomb factory, why give them the capability at all?

By the way, how did Bush breach the agreement? By getting tough on North Korea? I remember other liberal bloggers accused him of not being tough enough. Can you decide which one is it?

Just a thought - if your wise prophets (Clinton and Carter), aided by Republican Congress (no screaming, please - I have no loyalty to parties, just to my beliefs), did not GIVE OUT such technologies in the first place, we would not have a problem in North Korea.


We didn’t’ give them the capability- they were not in control of the facilities until, unfortunately, they kicked us out after we breeched the treaty. They breeched the agreement by stopping the supply of oil to them.

Why? Good question. How about engagement? We didn’t win the cold war by ignoring the enemy. We won by engaging them- Peacefully and on the battle field when necessary. To ignore them will not do anything but make the situation worse.

S. Korea has the most to lose here- they were the first to cry out when Bush included N. Korea in the Axis of Evil. He effectively erased decades of their work of unification. Sorry, but I think they know better than me/you/us the ramifications.

DavidMac
You don’t think when we were arming both sides of a war that Arab children died? You haven’t seen the women and children dieing in this war? How about during Shock and Awe? (Which was wholly unnecessary)

It doesn’t really matter if we agree on the necessity of this war, but the conduct of this war has been horrendous. Compare it to Desert Storm. Storming Normin dropped leaflets on the enemy and promised them food, water, and security if they surrendered- and they did. He lived up to that promise and the Arab world respected us for it. They cheered us for.

The conduct of these guys- shock and awe, torture, secret renditions, murder of innocents- The bush admin undermined our purpose. They undermined our ability to win. If we would have followed Powell instead- things may have been different.

But this policy has failed. We are worse off for it. It will take decades to fix.

DavidMac
You don’t think when we were arming both sides of a war that Arab children died? You haven’t seen the women and children dieing in this war? How about during Shock and Awe? (Which was wholly unnecessary)

It doesn’t really matter if we agree on the necessity of this war, but the conduct of this war has been horrendous. Compare it to Desert Storm. Storming Normin dropped leaflets on the enemy and promised them food, water, and security if they surrendered- and they did. He lived up to that promise and the Arab world respected us for it. They cheered us for.

The conduct of these guys- shock and awe, torture, secret renditions, murder of innocents- The bush admin undermined our purpose. They undermined our ability to win. If we would have followed Powell instead- things may have been different.

But this policy has failed. We are worse off for it. It will take decades to fix.

Peppermint writes:
btw, you didn't like my idea of sending the soldiers care packages. I know my nephew really appreciated all the ones he and his fellow marines got. He never complained either when he was in Afghanistan. And, beleive it or not, the Afghans loved the soldiers.

===============================================
One more time- i didn't say that. I merely pointed out there are better things we could do.

Afgan is falling into chaos...

sorry, but we should have stayed there and finished the job- instead, we now have two failed states.
==============================================
I belive you want a safe place for you grandkids- do do I.
Following this admin wont get us there- that is all I am saying.

they have failed.

Good night all
Enjoy the holidays.

modernone
u r a freakkin idiot.....

BEN
You make no distinction between murder and killing. One kills in self-defense. One murders as an offense. If we measured morality by the number of deaths caused in war, then the U.S. would have been deemed immoral for winning. You need to think clearly and rationally before you opine.

Ben
That should have read deaths caused in WWII.

Liver & Onions
Ben,

Just a comment about your alluding to the hate found on townhall forums.

I wonder if you would be willing to include townhall and daily kos, along with two consevative blogs and two liberal blogs picked by random.

These six sites, three conservative and three liberal would be examined for not only the total amount of hate and vitriol, but also the severity. I say pick any two months in the last twelve.

The loser donates a kidney and half a lobe of his liver to his local organ bank.

Exactly
We should also arrest any and all white Christian American males who rent trucks or buy fertilizer, lest they be on their way to blow up a federal building, right Ben?

Yeah I took a look
one time over there on dummiecratunderwhatever and I saw no real conversation going on. It was just a bunch of one line statements that didn't even make a lick of sense.
Now maybe somewhere on that site they have a "real" discussion but I wasn't willing to stick around that long. It was just so tedious wading through the same one liners ad nauseum. Then you have to take a quick shower, even if you had one already, to get the stench off.

I think that's why the libs come here. At least they can get a fight going.

Oh, I know I'm just so hateful.

Great column, Ben
I am always a bit surprised by the shrillness of the politically correct posters, but I am getting used to it.

If the airline gives in, pays off, and is too afraid to toss suspicious Arabs off in the future, we are in big trouble! At that point, I think we Americans need to demand that airlines sell tickets that will be fully refunded if one decides to leave a flight due to suspicious characters aboard.

Ben posted that,
"You haven’t seen the women and children dieing in this war?"

Yes, they are being killed by the terrorists, not by US soldiers and marines. The terrorists and the extremist Muslim radicals (both Sunni and Shia) kill women and children as TACTICAL DOCTRINE. American doctrine is to avoid killing non-combatants.

Ben posted, "Storming Normin dropped leaflets on the enemy and promised them food, water, and security if they surrendered- and they did. He lived up to that promise and the Arab world respected us for it. They cheered us for."

The Iraqi Army was starving because Stormin' Norman cut their supply lines to pieces through arial bombing prior to sending in the ground units. That's what we call "preparing the battlefield". We did the same thing in Vietnam (drop leaflets) promising humane treatment to those who volutarily surrendered. The VC, on the other hand, summarily executed US prisoners.

Ben, there's no way on earth that you can justify or excuse the Muslim atrocities. They kill prisoners, kill children, kill women. Muslims hatred for westerners is well-documented. It's inexcusable butchery and no amount of rationalization can justify it.

Use your brains
In my job with community mental health we are given training to assess danger and to deal with it as needed. There is a whole range of possible responses to a whole host of situations, some of which are dangerous and others that are not.

Thus, by virtue of that training, I constantly checking my environment for that which I might have to respond to. This does not mean I am afraid. I might feel a cold fist of apprehension in my stomach when a delusional client tells me he's going to kick my behind, but I am not necessarily afraid. Afraid is an irrational response to a circumstance outside of your control and I do not feel that a delusional client is necessarily outside of my control. I know this because of experience.

Therefore, if I am sitting in an airport and I encounter Ben's scenario, I may be apprehensive, but I doubt if I am afraid. Would I take my kids on the plane? As my brother has trained my 13-year-old ballet dancer in karate moves for defense against rapists I think I'd feel more comfortable with her on the plane. I would try to talk the terrorist down using Mandt techniques and she could kick his nasal bone into his brain when I failed. This is a good team in my mind. And, no, I'm not joking.

Here's the thing. It is not irrational to be aware of potential dangers. It is irrational to overreact to them. When a client is walking around mumbling to himself about the devil, I am primarily concerned for the client, but I also check my lines of retreat just in case. When a client tells me he wants to harm me, I prepare to use those lines of retreat, but I also use my other skills to attempt to calm him, including calling reinforcements -- like my 6 foot 3 coworker who is trained in akido. If the client picks up a chair to throw it at me, I run!

The imans were at the second stage. Their behavior was sufficiently far enough outside of the norm to warrant reinforcements. That would be airline security. The passengers and crew did not act irrationally. Irrational fear would have prompted them to deny the imans access to the aircraft while they were still at the gate. When two obviously not overweight men ask for seatbelt extension on an airplane, you have to ask why. When those same men tuck the seatbelt extensions under their seats rather than using them, it's cause for concern. Combine that with them belonging to a known suspect group and the loud-enough-to-be-noticed comments about President Bush and Iraq, and they needed to leave the plane.

I would point out that a client with obvious Anglo-Saxon features was once removed from an airline because he started talking about a monster on the wing who would crash the aircraft. Ten years later he says the airline did the right thing because he was "scaring people."

I guess it's okay to harrass mentally ill people for acting strange on airplanes, but not Middle Easterners. But, why?

aurorawatcher,
great post. And, just to add to your post, we should also remember that there are more than a few passengers already on edge just because they are flying.

Oh, and even joking about a bomb is grounds for instant removal; I don't see what these guys did as being very far removed from that.

Hannity and Colmes
Had on a passenger who was on the flight where the 6 imams were removed.
Colmes made a statement to another gentleman guest(whose name escapes me) but he posed the question, and I'm paraphrasing, "why can't these Muslims be able to pray in public" and not have people worried or scared about it.

Later in the show, there was a segment on the 10 Commandments being posted in front of a courthouse I believe somewhere near Gainesville, FL.

So Colmes poses the question to the man who wants them there, and once again I'm paraphrasing, "that is it not offensive to have the 10 commandments there when many would not agree with your beliefs"

Now for anyone who does not watch this show, Colmes is the liberal point of view to offset Hannity.

I found the two different views he expressed rather interesting.

So, 6 imams acting strangely should not offend anyone, but the 10 commandments (which is an inaminate object) was the offensive one.


This was a "PC Probe"
Thank You Ben. You nailed it.

Las Vegas Field Office

Thanks for the confirmation...
...Air Marshall, but as a follow up please tell me these men (and everybody they know, have ever known or will know) can no longer break wind without several hundred NSA, CIA, DOD, DHS, and FBI types holding their noses. PLEEEEEEAAAAASE!

just some thoughts
I hear that CAIR is threatening a boycot of U.S. Air by american muslims. I've purchased a gross of U.S. Airways stock as a result of this announcement.

And to Ben,

I find it amazing that you and your ilk claim to care about people, when you note how many of them have died as a result of "this war."

The simple truth is that you care not a twit for those in Darfor, or the Sudan, et. al. The real secret little truth about your caring is that you really don't care at all if people die, you only care who it is that kills them.

And another thought
I cannot help thinking that Ben and Nosmokes et. al. would have been right at the front of the line saying, "Why didn't U.S. Airways connect the dots?" had those 6 Imam's done some kind of actions to take over that flight to Phoenix.

Must be nice holding no solid standards so you can cut everything to fit your own worldview as is convenient.

DavidMac
DavidMac writes: [The Iraqi Army was starving because Stormin' DavidMac:[Norman cut their supply lines to pieces through arial bombing prior to sending in the ground units. That's what we call "preparing the battlefield". We did the same thing in Vietnam (drop leaflets) promising humane treatment to those who volutarily surrendered. The VC, on the other hand, summarily executed US prisoners.]



Exactly, competence vs. incompetence. Just because we act, does not mean we are making the best decisions.



DavidMac writes::[Ben, there's no way on earth that you can justify or excuse the Muslim atrocities. They kill prisoners, kill children, kill women. Muslims hatred for westerners is well-documented. It's inexcusable butchery and no amount of rationalization can justify it. ]

I have never tried too. I simply have said we are better than what the Bush admin incompetence has brought us, we are better than what they have done. We have standards. We lived up to those standards in more trying times- this admin has disgraced us, they have made the country less safe. Again- not my words- that was the last Security Assessment.

You can believe the experts or the politicians. I will listen to the experts.


Good day to you all.

The Experts Predicted 11 hurricanes / 18
tropical storms. I traded all my healthcare and stem cell stock for Home Depot and Lowes stock.

Now I'm sitting on decent but dormant stock. All because of the experts.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH "BEN".

Actual hurricanes 5 / tropical storms 9.

Total to hit the U.S. mainland. "ZERO" that means "0".

BEN, ones man's expert is another man's charlatan.
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