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Sunday, March 08, 2009
Austin Hill :: Townhall.com Columnist
2009 A.D. (After Dobson)
by Austin Hill
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“..One of the common errors of founder-presidents is to hold to the reins of leadership too long…”

With these words, conservative activist and Clinical Psychologist Dr. James Dobson recently announced his resignation as Chairman for the non-profit Focus On The Family organization. This decision reflects Dr. Dobson’s extraordinary character, and should not be taken lightly, because it is rare when a personality of his magnitude can make such a difficult choice.

As Focus On The Family now contemplates its future, the entire social conservative political movement needs to do the same. And the movement should begin by asking itself this question: “what is our purpose - - to preserve our existing institutions, or to do what it takes to advance vital ideas in the future?” These two objectives are not incongruous, but neither are they the same thing.

The last Republican primary election cycle vividly illustrates this. During that time, Dobson devoted most of his public political commentary to critiquing the candidates, and, while from a distance it appeared that he thought highly of Governor Mitt Romney, he nonetheless declined to offer a public endorsement. Finally, on primary election day in his home state of Colorado, Dobson cautiously admitted in an interview that he voted for Romney, but made it clear that his vote was not to be construed as support for the Mormon Church, to which Romney belongs.

It's possible that Dobson refused to endorse Romney because, had he done so, it would have appeared in the minds of many Evangelicals as an endorsement of a “cult member” - - and this potentially could have been harmful to Focus On The Family. If this is correct, then it appears that, perhaps out of necessity, Dobson chose to protect his organization, rather than publicly support his preferred presidential candidate. And thus, my question, what is the purpose of this movement - - to preserve its’ existing institutions, or to do what is necessary for the future?

This scenario also begs another question: when considering a statesman, why is it that some (perhaps many) social conservatives would place theology and religious affiliation above all other considerations? The social conservative movement was begun largely by Evangelicals, yet today America is far more religiously pluralistic, and less exclusively Evangelical, than it was even a decade ago.

If the movement is to survive, socially conservative Americans must be willing to form alliances with people who are like-minded on public policy matters, but who also may at times differ on theological matters. This already happens “behind the scenes.” But, unpopular as it may be to some, leaders of the movement need to articulate these kinds of alliances publicly, and to “normalize” such relationships. If this doesn’t happen, we could see the otherwise qualified Romney get snubbed again, simply because he belongs to the “wrong church,“ or, God forbid, Governor Bobby Jindal get rejected because prior to becoming a Christian, he was once a Hindu (and some may find this background distasteful).

The social conservative movement must also ask itself if it is willing to embrace the principles of smaller, limited government. This is essential, because during the Bush presidency social conservatives became quite comfortable with certain types of big government. For example, taxpayer dollars spent on “social welfare” programs were fine, so long as they were “marriage enrichment programs“ or “abstinence only” sex education programs.

But a government entrusted to “teach abstinence” easily becomes the government that teaches “sexual experimentation” and distributes condoms, and the agenda changes according to which political sensibilities are prevailing in Washington at any given moment. Thus, government is an inherently unreliable partner for advancing social conservative causes, and the solution to the dilemma is to have less government permeating our lives - - not more.

The movement must also contemplate what, precisely, are the great “moral issues” of our time. For over three decades, social conservatives have done tremendous work speaking to America’s collective conscience about the sanctity of the human person, and the virtues entailed in the institutions of marriage and family. As a result, millions of Americans - - loosely described as “values voters” - - understand the “moral issues” of marriage and abortion, and vote on these issues accordingly.

But an exclusive focus on marriage and abortion is insufficient. Today we have a President whose “economic plan“ completely undermines the moral virtues of thrift, hard work, personal responsibility, and personal charity. His “green energy” environmental plans elevate the interests of plant and animal life over and above the interests of human life. And his plans to nationalize healthcare, which inevitably leads to healthcare rationing, threatens to undermine the sanctity of the elderly, disabled, and terminally ill.

Now, perhaps more than ever, America needs the social conservative movement to address these issues. They are biomedical, environmental, and economic issues, yes. But they are most certainly “moral issues.”

Which of the movement’s leaders are up to the task?

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About The Author
Austin Hill is a Talk Show Host At Boise, Idaho's 580 KIDO Radio, and a frequent Guest Host on the Fox Newstalk Radio Network. He is the Author of "White House Confidential: The Little Book Of Weird Presidential History," And Co-Author of the forthcoming title "The Virtues Of Capitalism: A Moral Case For Free Markets" (Northfield/Moody Press, 2010).
 
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Looking for leaders.

You're right, Austin.

Conservative America is presently looking for the next generation of leaders... both in our churches, and in our government.

But trust me... it should not take very long.

With the way Obama is openly nmisleading us, mortaging our future and marching us toward socialism... people are getting really angry.

Many have wondered what it would take for the silent majority to be silent no more, and for people to join in with others to protest and volunteer... many for the very FIRST time in their lives.

Some believe that day is quickly approaching.

I beg to differ... because it's already happening.

The only question remains - how many of us will honestly be able to tell our children or grand-children,

"You bet, I was there."



Austin, you bad boy
Evangelical leaders have created the "litmus test" of acceptability. GWB passed the test in 2000 and 2004. I can't count the number of good republicans who have lamely told me "he wasn't what we thought he was" after even they realized he had trashed the country.

A belief that "moral virtue", as defined by evangelicals, is the same as good leadership is insanity. A belief that moral virtue, alone, qualifies for a leadership position is insanity by anyone of any faith.

Evangelicals, rank and file, have painted themselves into a corner with moral virtue and in doing so have written their obituary as a political force.

Are evangelicals so egotistical to think they invented social conservatism? You have waxed and waned throughout history. Fortunately for the world we are in a waning period. Did I mention my belief this is likely to be for the next 2 generations?

cudlow
If we are to operate under the assumption that our FF were correct and that God grants ALL our rights and freedoms, including that of worship, then we must also acknowledge that Mormons, as well as Evangelicals, have that right.

Evangelicals have done much harm to this country with their divisiveness in this area. Do I agree with Mormonism...no, however I do recognize that they share many of the same values as I do, no matter how they arrived at those values. Evangelicals are getting far too arrogant in their condemnation, and perhaps should leave that to God.

I also think where Evangelicals have dropped the ball is not educating the populace where school has left off. They could do a fine job filling the gap about religion in general, Civilization, Western Civilization over all. Perhaps if they did a little more ministering and educating, and a little less politicking, we would have a better society over all, and quite possibly more Evangelicals. They seem to be their own undoing currently.

Austin Hill was absolutely accurate, and you need to remember or learn, that elections are won on majorities and Evangelicals are not a majority. To best implement policies that you believe in, you need to find like minded thinkers wherever they come from.

Cudlow
I disagree with you, and I am an Evangelical Christian. I would ask how long you have been in the faith? You sound somewhat idealistic.

God calls on us to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. When I first started reading the Bible (I am reluctant to tell you how long ago) I was surprised by the times that God used or cooperated with people who were not His own.

Early in the scriptures we see God used an Egyptian king to save the people of Israel from famine. Even though this king worshiped idols, still God’s servant Joseph became a high-ranking person in this king’s court. What if Joseph had been hostile to the King of Egypt? What if he had refused to honor this king or refused to serve in his court because of religious differences? God’s plan would have been thwarted and the people of Israel may have starved.

If you read the entire Bible, you see many examples such as this one. God does not call us to embrace the beliefs of heathens, but God understands that many times we will have to interact with them. What matters is whether there is sufficient common ground between two individuals or groups to work toward a common goal. This is prudence, and God’s Word has many things to say about prudence.

Often times, by working with people outside the Faith who may be misguided but still have essentially good values, we can make inroads and serve as an example of God’s saving grace. This is not the same as forming allegiances with those who deliberately work to destroy us and use our good intentions as a means of getting an advantage over us. This is where wisdom is needed. Obama, I believe, is deliberately using the good intentions of many Americans to destroy our country. Mitt Romney, on the other hand, only wants our country to be free and prosperous so he can continue to live his own life and follow his own beliefs.

I agree social conservatives
must be willing and courageous enough to tell others that socialism is immoral. In fact it is stealing.

You are missing the one most important moral obligation we have. TRUTH. Telling the truth. We have become a nation of liars and we do not care if someone lies to us. We do not even blink when our president lies day in and day out. Truth itself not just the truth of the Gospel needs to be held up if we are to honor God.
Thou shall honor thy parents- certainly doesn't mean providing government health-care. Let's all send our parents to the DMV or Post Office for healthcare. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thou shall not steal. Socialism's habit of buying votes. The poor taking the money and voting for those that promise more is greedy and stealing.

Thou shall not lie. When do we ever expect to hear the truth from out leaders. Truth including the parts they do not want you to hear. Not pieces of the truth the whole truth. I'm disgusted with our media and journalists. Phonies.

Thou shall not covet. Come to Israel. Guess what I can't afford it. So stop trying to make me feel bad about it.

Thou shall not commit adultry. Are you kidding me? How many Christians have I known...... You know what that includes being better friends with someone of the opposite sex other than your husband or wife too!

Thou shall not kill! Government healthcare kills. Those unable to produce or that become inconvenient have no reason to exist in socialized countries. Who has value. God says everybody has value. Tyrannic forms of government say only producers have value. And don't tell me these same people don't think the world is overpopulated by people.

Dobson
did not feel it was his place to endorse candidates. Many religious leaders did not.

OBAMA's racist black liberation theology is not a cult????? How many so-called brothers(taken straight from Paul the apostle) voted for the pro abortion candidate.

Jim Wallis?????????????????What the heck is he up to?????????????

I hope Dobson becomes a politician.

I believe Mitt Romney is a moral person but what happened with homosexual marriage under his leadership?
I have to admit that anyone who believes Joseph Smith is questionable to me. The special glasses thing is weird. More than one wife? I know Mormons call themselves Christians but if Mormons want to be considered Christians they have alot of explaining to do. Honest explaining about their past.

Ms Kelly and Lolo1
I wholeheartedly agree with both of you.

The best candidate, as far as qualifications and values I believe in, WAS Mitt Romney. I was raised in the Mormon religion, but converted to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod about 30 years ago. I TOTALLY DISAGREE with Mitt Romney's religious beliefs, thus the conversion to the Lutheran religion. BUT, this country was built on religious freedom.

Is "cudlow" and the like saying that unless you believe like "I" do, you cannot hold the highest office in the land. Have THEY forgotten the 1st Amendment of the Constitution? Obviously so.

I pray each day that people in this country will overcome their religious biases for the sake of the country.

Mitt Romney is a very accomplished, intelligent man that would serve the United States of America well as President.

If evangelicals can vote for Obama (yikes!), a man whose beliefs are diametrically opposed to theirs, they cannot tell me they could never vote for a man like Romney whose values are identical to theirs. They appear to be a bit schizophrenic.



Bleedingheart
My litmus test is simple...are you a supporter,
and/or contributer/receiver of donations for
the torture and exectution of millions of the most innocent and helpless American citizens..those are the baby's from conception on..no exceptions.
If someone cannot fit that rule of thumb, then there's no compromise. And that goes for so called Christians who lowered their standards and voted for the murderer/torturer in chief.
They wear as much blood on their hands as do
the so called doctors, staff, procurers (see O, he wears the label well), those fools who try to have it both ways..I'm personally against but
it's the law and o by the way..I'm a Christain.
And it includes turncoats like Brownback..
I've been a pro lifer from the beginning and
I will NOT give an inch on what I believe.

Tea Party
Thanks for stating it so eloquently.

TEA TIME
MORAL, CONGRESSIONAL ETHIC LAWS, THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION, CRIMINAL LAWS, AND THE WORD OF GOD. THOSE WHO ARE OPPOSED TO MORAL ARE ALSO OPPOSED TO CRIMINAL LAWS.

What is our purpose
Hopefully James Dobson will continue to speak out for truth. Let me also suggest Star Parker as a leader "for such a time as this...ES 4.14" urbancure.org

A little misguided.

Ms Kelly, Lolo1... I totally agree.

Cudlow, our legalistic friend, conveniently forgets that we elect "commanders in chief"... not "pastors in chief".

Character, integrity, values, ability and courage are the things that really count.

And we should never ask ANY government leader to do what is the sole purpose of churches and their members.

Tragically, some churches are so superficial, so watered down and so oblivious as to what is even going on in their own neighborhoods... that they are nothing more than glorified social clubs.

Oh, America... just for a few more true statesmen, and churches with real hearts.


Social Conservatism1
Mr. Hill's key line:

"The social conservative movement must also ask itself if it is willing to embrace the principles of smaller, limited government."

It all depends on what you mean. If you mean leave the genocide of abortion up to the free market, forget it. If you mean openly embrace smut and crude manners broadcast over public airwaves, forget it. If you mean openly embrace a destructive drug culture and the dissolution of the family unit with deadbeat dads and prosti-tots, forget it.

As a social conservative, I see government as a means of enforcing moral order that is to be welcomed, but not overzealously. Justice is a fragile thing. Exude too tight a grip, and the measures you enact will crush it. Yet if you exude no grip, it will slip through your fingers.

Social Conservatism2
Limited government is too often code for telling social conservatives to not be social conservatives. If this is what you have in mind, forget it. Now, if you wish to discuss economic justice, and how what one has should be *earned*, not redistributed, fine -- articulate what the meritocracy is and embrace a commitment to that. But please recognize that the term "limited government" is far too broad and does not capture what you're after: individual rights, responsibilities, and the meritocracy.

"Limited government" is at best a misnomer, and at worst, an insidious attempt to corrupt social conservatism. And for the record, no, I don't believe in government that's so limited it can't determine the safety of the food it imports. Our trade policy and unwillingness to enact punitive measures for products that shipped in a deliberately defective state or to compensate for pathetic overseas labor standards which undermine our own labor force is lousy.

I say this, Mr. Hill, because you cite the example of government teaching sex before marriage is fine as why we should embrace limited government. Wrong.

Christian Right, now
Almost all social conservatives are religious conservatives. Religious conservatives are in possession, as they well know, of God's truth in all things. God's truth extends to politics and the tasks of government. Accordingly, it is absurd for religious conservatives to buy into the old-fashioned 'small government' ideology of many Republicans. This element is an increasingly marginal part of the Republican party anyway; the political core, the core voters, are religious conservatives.

Give that religious conservatives have God on their side, and that all of their positions on issues are God's positions, it is also absurd for them to ignore their responsibility to get into politics, to get into office, and to govern according to God's truth. They should be working hard to transform the Republican party into a true Christian Right political party. They can continue to call it "Republican" because that label is familiar, but they need to transform the party, purging it of all RINOs and CINOs, ba positions, establishing tests for membership to exclude any pro-choice persons or believers in either evolution or global warming. It should be clear to all, friend or foe, that the Christian Right party is not a "big tent" based on compromising with truth, but a dedicated, disciplined political force, ready to take and hold political power for the good of the country.

Social Conservatism3
The main problem is not government involvement. The driving problem on this issue is the nature of that involvement. In other words, it is the CONTENT that is or is not objectionable -- not involvement in and of itself! The only reason I would have to object to government run sex ed is that it's not an academic subject, and that sex is remarkably personal and intimate -- not something to make light of or degrade with unnecessary blather with the pretenses of intellectualism. But when considering the scope of the issue at stake, this is a minor objection.

Given the reality we observe, if schooling is to be a means by which the left can introduce vice, then it is also a tool at our disposal to introduce virtue. First, win the culture war. Once you have, then you can phase out abstinence sex ed and focus solely on academics. But you must win the culture war. If you don't, then you witness an increasingly left-wing country that demands more handouts and gluttonous immoral behavior. In short: THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT!

If I have to compromise, I can. But I too, like another poster, have a litmus test, and it is abortion. Tell me to leave that behind, and I leave the movement behind.

Social Conservatism3
The main problem is not government involvement. The driving problem on this issue is the nature of that involvement. In other words, it is the CONTENT that is or is not objectionable -- not involvement in and of itself! The only reason I would have to object to government run sex ed is that it's not an academic subject, and that sex is remarkably personal and intimate -- not something to make light of or degrade with unnecessary blather with the pretenses of intellectualism. But when considering the scope of the issue at stake, this is a minor objection.

Given the reality we observe, if schooling is to be a means by which the left can introduce vice, then it is also a tool at our disposal to introduce virtue. First, win the culture war. Once you have, then you can phase out abstinence sex ed and focus solely on academics. But you must win the culture war. If you don't, then you witness an increasingly left-wing country that demands more handouts and gluttonous immoral behavior. In short: THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT!

If I have to compromise, I can. But I too, like another poster, have a litmus test, and it is abortion. Tell me to leave that behind, and I leave the movement behind.

A final thought
Mr. Hill, in pondering the matter, I also believe I've come up with a substitute term for "limited government" -- one that more accurately characterizes what I desire:

Judicious government.

God loves Mormons too
Wow, Voting for a mormon is a sin Mr. cudlow? You prove why people misguidedly view religion as antagonistic. It is a good thing bigots like you are in the minority. People like cudlow are just as dangerous to this country as democrats. Why don't people like you understand that it is evil to hate in such a way. I'm not saying that Liberals are morally clean and should be given a pass. I am totally against abortion and gay marriage, but we cannot get anywhere when Christians start to embody prejudice like cudlow.

Amen, brother!
Hallelujah and amen.

But Austin, you do realize you are not really a social conservative, at least by its current meaning, don't you? You are a laissez-faire conservative. You are on my team. You may think that because you are anti-abortion and concerned about personal morality that you are a social conservative. Not so. You have made the choice to put freedom first. Social conservatives have made the choice to put the "moral order" first, and they aren't particularly concerned about how much statism it takes to get there.

A laissez-faire conservative isn't someone who doesn't care about morals. Far from it. We recognize that statism is the political path to its destruction, and we are extremely alarmed by this--but seeing this is something that requires reason, and the evangelicals reject reason. Look at Stoic Patriot's posts. His is the modern social conservative mind--a mind dedicated to irrationality, and he is letting us know that he has no intention of coming around, ever. Bringing down the hammer of the state for the sake of installing morality makes them *feel* better, and there is nothing else they wish to know or consider.

My advice to you is this: Try to reach as many such minds, especially young ones, as you can and bring them on over to our side. Try to get them to see the light, that laissez-faire selects for virtue, and statism selects for vice, and it can never be otherwise. But understand that you will have a fight on your hands, and that in the end, some of them will just have to be denied seats at the proverbial table.

There has never been a better opportunity than now to do what needs to be done. We are living in epochal times, and such times require exceptional and determined leaders in every endeavor. Tag, you're it, Austin.

Wendy1
You characterize me as irrational. How? Why? It is not a matter of feeling, but an acceptance of a certain set of principles that human behavior is to be constrained in certain manners which dictates my political sentiments. A respect for life, truth, and property, as well as freedom from slavery / wrongful imprisonment and deliberately-induced injury are superb starting points. These in part constitute the basics of morality - a set of mandates derived from natural law which serve as the absolutely minimal standards government should be enforcing. Of course, given that you use the term "personal morality," I doubt you believe in the existence of a universal moral order to begin with, be it divine or not.

These may be followed upon by using government as a means of promoting public virtue, a concept that is akin to but not identical with morality. For instance, consider the arrest of Michael Vick. I support hunting, and he killed dogs, yet I supported his arrest. Why? Because his killing of dogs revealed a reveling; a sadism in the death of another creature rather than a means of testing one's marksmanship. Dogs may have no rights, but such a callous attitude serves as a psychological basis for engaging in other cruel acts onto beings with rights. In Vick's case, government served an admirable function.

Wendy2
What you do not understand is that laissez-faire does not stand for virtue or anything at all for that matter. Laissez-faire literally means to leave be -- to allow things to persist in a state of nature. If things are fine, you will leave them alone, which if you can find agreement that things are fine, will naturally result. But if you witness social devolution and barbarism, your position also permits such things to be (think Lord of the Flies). Depending on the circumstances, this may be (1) stupid, and/or (2) immoral. Regarding abortion in particular, this is a matter of individual rights, and whether or not the child is a human being that has individual rights. If you can conclude the child is, it logically follows that in order to have any rights, one must first be alive, and that the child's right to live takes precedence over any elective desires of the mother.

Wendy3
My objection to your position and that of Mr. Hill is that you do not understand what government is. Like a firearm, it is neither good nor evil. A gun can be used for self-defense, hunting, organizing a militia, etceteras. Similarly, it can also be used for robbery and murder. It is merely a tool. Analogously, government is also a tool. The exercise of governmental power is not bad in and of itself. It's a question of how it's used!

If you need to nail a piece of wood and you possess a hammer, you don't put it down and say "A hammer is an evil tool. Let me go find a screwdriver." The reason conservatives fail to ever successfully advance an agenda is because our representatives have no conception of how to use the tools at their disposal once they are entrusted with governmental power by the voters.

Yet I sense that you have a libertarian vibe. You talk about putting freedom first. Permit me to offer this thought: is all freedom good? Freedom harbors an immense set of actions and states of affairs. I can talk both about the freedom to be loud and obnoxious, and also the freedom to not have to endure loud and obnoxious people -- yet the two can come into conflict. You would not judge all blacks as good or bad. You'd judge them as individuals. If we judge individuals on an individual basis, why would we not take a similar approach when it comes to concepts like individual freedoms? I find the libertarian vantage point overly simplistic.

Finally, this is a minor point, but please do not conflate my positions with those necessarily of evangelicals. I agree with the evangelicals on many social issues, but I am an atheist. If you are going to dismiss me as irrational, I would at least caution you to do so without claiming it stems from a religious fervor.

Wendy3
My objection to your position and that of Mr. Hill is that you do not understand what government is. Like a firearm, it is neither good nor evil. A gun can be used for self-defense, hunting, organizing a militia, etceteras. Similarly, it can also be used for robbery and murder. It is merely a tool. Analogously, government is also a tool. The exercise of governmental power is not bad in and of itself. It's a question of how it's used!

If you need to nail a piece of wood and you possess a hammer, you don't put it down and say "A hammer is an evil tool. Let me go find a screwdriver." The reason conservatives fail to ever successfully advance an agenda is because our representatives have no conception of how to use the tools at their disposal once they are entrusted with governmental power by the voters.

Yet I sense that you have a libertarian vibe. You talk about putting freedom first. Permit me to offer this thought: is all freedom good? Freedom harbors an immense set of actions and states of affairs. I can talk both about the freedom to be loud and obnoxious, and also the freedom to not have to endure loud and obnoxious people -- yet the two can come into conflict. You would not judge all blacks as good or bad. You'd judge them as individuals. If we judge individuals on an individual basis, why would we not take a similar approach when it comes to concepts like individual freedoms? I find the libertarian vantage point overly simplistic.

Finally, this is a minor point, but please do not conflate my positions with those necessarily of evangelicals. I agree with the evangelicals on many social issues, but I am an atheist. If you are going to dismiss me as irrational, I would at least caution you to do so without claiming it stems from a religious fervor.

How is it that the "Gay Agenda"
is trampling all over the "Evangelical Agenda"?

The gay movement keeps picking up steam, suffers minor drawbacks here and there, regroups, then continues to charge ahead...

Yet the evangelical agenda never seems to get anything done, runs in a circle - like a dog chasing its tail, is frequently ridiculed by even moderates and independents.

Maybe it's just fate...?

The Great Divorce
Or schism.

We conservatives have been effectively split and the rift cannot be healed. Any more than the Orthodox and Roman Catholic schism can ever be stitched back together.

I can't surrender my religious values in the name of effective government any more than the libertarians can ever feel comfortable in the same room with strongly anti-abortion religious voters.

Rat voters will endure anybody that will vote rat. They'd get into bed with NAMBLA if it got them some votes, and do.

Indeed, "What can the righteous do when the foundations are destroyed?"

Your analogy is wrong ...
Stoic Pat.

Study your Founding Fathers. George Washington no less. Government is an evil that must be endured to the littlest extent possible.

A gun is a wonderful tool. Government is a deadly institution that will always go astray. Every time. It must be kept under armed guard and hacked down to the ground on a regular basis.

We have long ago abandoned this truth and we shall not rediscover it.

Good riddance to Dobson!!
Dobson is the world's biggest busybody. He can't stand the idea that people may be playing poker on the Internet in their own homes with their own money, so he wants to use the power of the federal government to stop them. He used his influence last year to ensure the GOP Party Platform contained a plank calling for a ban on online poker, and then his representatives went out and taunted poker players for trying to keep it out. Funny, huh?

You know what's funnier? The Poker Players Alliance now has over 1 million members, and you can be sure they had negative feelings toward the GOP on Election Day. For those of you who thought something like "who cares about poker" when reading the beginning of my post, ask yourself if you wanted to lose all these votes for something you don't see as important.

And, what did Dobson get for his efforts? Well, now we have a government more likely to pass legislation making poker clearly legal (which is fine with me), but we also have one that will work against the interests of conservatives. IMO Dobson fought for things "nice to have" rather than the "must-haves", and he lost both. Not a well-played hand, Dobson.

Poker Players Alliance at CPAC
The Poker Players Alliance participated at this year's Conservative Political Action Conference. I went to D.C. to pitch in (check out my blog at http://theengineer2008.blogspot.com/ for more info and CPAC pics). I -- with the help of some great editing from some fellow poker players -- wrote up a handout on why conservatives should wish to protect poker rights. We shared boxes of these handouts with the conference attendees. NOT ONE PERSON came up to us to say we were promoting "sin" (in quotes because nothing in the Bible says poker is a sin):

Poker Players Alliance at CPAC (side 1a)
Ante Up for Your Rights (side 1)
The Conservative Case for Protecting Poker

Ante Up for…Limited government

* Many conservatives believe the federal government should not be in the business of preventing adults from playing a game of poker at a time and place of their choosing. These include former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, George Will, Walter Williams, and Grover Norquist, all of whom have written in opposition to prohibitions on poker.

* Conservatives believe “the government that governs best governs least.” Poker is a great American pastime that has been enjoyed by U.S. soldiers, presidents, world leaders, and everyday Americans. It is simply wrong that Americans are being told they are criminals for enjoying the great game of poker.

* The new law unfairly discriminates against poker giving special protections to activities such as intrastate gaming, on-line lotteries, betting on horse racing, and fantasy sports for cash.

* The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) requires banks and credit card companies to police the Internet and the financial system to stop Americans from participating in “unlawful Internet gambling” – a requirement the government could not even define. U.S. licensing and regulation removes this burden from America’s financial services industry. It’s time to stop treating banks and credit card companies like agencies of the federal government.

Poker Players Alliance at CPAC (side 1b)
Ante Up for…Personal Responsibility

* Only through meaningful regulation, not prohibition, can we ensure fairness of the game, provide protections for children, and provide services for problem gamblers. And if taxed, significant revenue could be raised for federal and state governments without increasing taxes on citizens.

* U.S. licensing and regulation will mandate verification of the ages of the participants. Sites comply voluntarily now, but regulation will give U.S. laws the teeth needed for enforcement. It will also provide protections for those with excessive gaming habits, including mandated use of self-exclusion lists.

* Licensing and regulation will provide for consumer protections while stimulating the American economy and generating tax revenue and licensing fees.

Ante Up for…Internet Freedom

* Internet censorship and an unenforceable, unpopular prohibition provide no benefits to anyone. All censorship and prohibition can do is drive players underground or overseas while bringing the power of the federal government into America’s homes, where it doesn’t belong.

* Many voters – free speech advocates, young voters, and conservatives in particular – are suspicious of arguments contending that Internet freedom is dangerous and banning certain online activities or confiscating virtual property.

* U.S. licensing and regulation of online poker will allow American companies to participate in the world’s Internet gaming market, bringing needed business and jobs to America. All a prohibition can do is send U.S. jobs and money abroad.

* Regulators, legislators and financial institutions are all warning that UIGEA is unenforceable. With banks now needing to rebuild themselves, it is difficult to imagine the banking system being used to police the Internet to stop a legitimate game of skill like poker.

Poker Players Alliance at CPAC (side 2a)
The Legal Community Agrees:
Poker is a Game of Skill, Not Chance

Poker’s Recent Key Legal Victories

Colorado – in late January a Colorado jury found an organizer of a poker league, Kevin P. Raley, not guilty of unlawful gaming. Under Colorado law, gambling is defined as wagering on a game of chance. With help of expert testimony from the PPA, the jury found the poker league was playing a game of skill, not chance, and was not participating in unlawful gaming.

Pennsylvania – Earlier this year Judge Thomas James, Jr. ruled that poker is predominantly a game of skill. The Pennsylvania court took the next step and threw out 20 charges against the defendants, who held a poker game in their home.

Kentucky – a judge in Kentucky, with the support of the Commonwealth’s Democratic Governor, Steve Beshear, ordered the seizure of numerous Internet domain names related to Internet gaming. Of the over 141 websites ordered for seizure, not one was located in the state of Kentucky. This action would result in a precedent allowing any government to capture and shut down perfectly legal Internet sites that are based outside of their jurisdiction. The Kentucky Court of Appeals overturned the lower court’s ruling to seize the domain names. However, the governor has appealed to the Kentucky Supreme Court.

South Carolina – A South Carolina judge found that poker is indeed a game of skill, not chance, during a trial where defendants were charged with playing cards in a “house used as a place of gaming”. PPA argued that the Court should adopt the rulings of other courts that gambling refers to a game in which the outcome is determined predominantly by chance, not by skill. The judge agreed and kicked it to a higher court.

PPA’s Litigation Support Network has been involved in each of these cases. We provided expert witnesses, prepared arguments for trial, and filed amicus briefs with the courts.

Poker Players Alliance at CPAC (side 2b)
The Problem with “Midnight Rulemaking”

* The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act was included on a port security bill that was rushed through Congress before the 2006 election. In the waning days of the Bush Administration, the rule pertaining to this law was implemented in a way that many consider an unlawful power play.

* The regulation deputizes banks and payment systems to block “unlawful Internet gambling” but does not define what that term means. Rather, the general counsel of every bank in the country must research what “unlawful Internet gambling” means in each state and on the federal level.

* The Office of Management and Budget has estimated that the rule will cost more than $100 million for banks and payment systems to implement, and take more than one million man-hours.

* The rule is not set to go into effect until December of this year. Congress is currently looking at whether this rule, and others like it, should be overturned.

Stoic Patriot
It sounds like you decided what you want the US to be, then designed "principles" to make that happen. The reason I put principles in quotes is that, taken to its logical conclusion, you'd make the federal government the body to determine and enforce values.

By embracing big government, you've given government the power to do things like prohibit anti-gay speech (some really do see that speech as a moral issue), to stop sales of "assault weapons" (in quotes because there's really no such thing), and to do all sorts of things based on their values.

You sure are worried about what your neighbors do in their own homes. You know, freedom really isn't such a dangerous thing. I think a few years of Democrat control over the entire federal government will help to clarify that for you.

I updated my blog with CPAC pics
Either click my name above or go to http://internetpokerrights.blogtownhall.com/ to check it out. Thanks!

Don't get to excited
While I agree 100% with Mr. Hill today I have not confidence that anything will change with Mr. Dobson, Focus on the Family, and the views of the conservatives . . . the fear on which they base most of their life is to strong.

Evangelical Christians have yet to recover for being seduced by power in the 70's . . . Until Christians understand and function as builders of the Kingdom of God and not the Nation of America nothing will change.

Mr. Dobson has build an empire at the expense of the Kingdom of God . . .

Please understand that we as Followers of Christ must make our voices heard but that is politics, that is lobbying and not the work that God placed us on the earth to do . . .

It is time for Christians to rise above and walk in the higher calling of the Kingdom of God.

The Engineer (2:05 AM EST)

To: “Stoic Patriot” from: The Engineer.
“You sure are worried about what your neighbors do in their own homes. You know, freedom really isn't such a dangerous thing. I think a few years of Democrat control over the entire federal government will help to clarify that for you.”

My Response:

Question: If we permit the baby to be thrown out with the bath water, will the baby still be alive AFTER your object lesson?

BTW... Please don't tell me you were one of those CPAC survey responders who voted for “Unfit-Mitt?”

http://rushtellthetruth.blogspot.com/2008/08/open-letter-to -rush-limbaugh.html

Michael W.
Using the federal government to prohibit adults from playing online poker in their own homes IS the bath water, at least IMO.

I voted for Ron Paul in the primary and at the survey. Check out my blog for pics.

Michael W.
"Question: If we permit the baby to be thrown out with the bath water, will the baby still be alive AFTER your object lesson? "

It’s not my lesson. In fact, I tried to do my part to stop that. I expressed concerns here that the party was throwing away needed votes just to keep big government social conservatives -- a small but very loud minority of the party -- happy. Many of us wrote to the GOP platform committee to express our concerns about inclusion of a plank backing an online poker prohibition. The draft committee removed it, citing the need for votes on Election Day. The full committee restored it, unfortunately (and the member who restored it told a woman who objected to join the Libertarian Party...nice touch).

Once restored, FRC's Tom Minnery actually taunted us in a press release, telling us how foolish we were to show our hands early (a weak poker analogy on his part). We’ve gotten many personal taunts from FoF and FRC.

I understand these groups don't like poker, but why do they have to insult and taunt a large group of swing voters (not just poker players, either...many care deeply about Internet freedom)???

These guys interfered with ALL of our other rights by driving voters away from the GOP. This isn't a lesson I wished upon the GOP.... it’s one the GOP brought upon itself.

I hope we can fix it before the next presidential election (clearly nothing is being done to be ready for '10, so I won't even hold that out as a possibility).

David the trolling "Tinker-Bell"

Shouldn't you people be at your “Gay-Bar” instead of trolling at TH.

The Internet is alive with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE (studies) that being raised by either gay or lesbian couples is harmful to the children!

Note: Based on the average found in the following nine studies, 14% of children raised by homosexual parents develop homosexual or bisexual preferences. These NINE studies reported rates of non-heterosexuality ranging from 8% to 21%. The most frequently reported percentages were 14% and 16% (two studies each). For comparison purposes, data from the best national surveys report that approximately 2% of the general population is non-heterosexual (Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, and Michaels,1994). Therefore, if these percentages hold true in better designed studies, children raised by homosexuals appear to be about seven times more likely to develop homosexual or bisexual preferences than children raised by heterosexuals. And, as was explained earlier, 14% may be an under-estimate due to the young ages of many of the subjects in these studies.

http://www.drtraycehansen.com/Pages/writings_sexpref.html

HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR IS “UNHEALTHY”

February 12, 2008

Top "Gay" Organization Comes Clean:

"HIV is a gay disease."

Washington, D.C. - In a public statement last Friday, Matt Foreman, outgoing Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, rattled the homosexual activist community by joining the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), pro-family organizations and a growing number of homosexual activists willing to admit that homosexual behavior is both extremely high-risk and primarily responsible for the spread of HIV/AIDS in the U.S.

GOD has helped thousands of people like you become X-Gay and if you wish to live to old age, perhaps you should consider a change?

Dobson
The leaders of the evangelical movement will not see a change with the retirement of Rev. Dobson. They all read a Bible literally, with no exceptions, so instead of a gray headed man, they will have a brown headed man leading FOF.

David
"And why do you believe God had to sacrifice his son to somehow atone for the sins of humans? How does that work? How could he have died for my sins if I hadn't been born yet? And if he really did die for my sins, why can't I keep sinning without being threatened with Hell? His death seems like a throwback to animal sacrifices(the lamb of God?), which were apparently necessary because at one time God wanted us to kill animals in his name. I'm glad he got over that!"

All of your questions have answers if you care to do some fair-minded research. God created the animals, so we don't have the right to tell Him what to do with them. Animal sacrifices were needed to show us hard-headed humans how terrible our own sin is. They portray the ultimate sacrifice of the God-man, Jesus. Because Jesus is sinless, His sacrifice paid for the sins of everyone, including me and you. The fact that Jesus rose from the dead proves this. There is ample proof that Jesus rose from the dead if you do your research. Instead of us finding fault with God, we should be thankful there is a Way of forgiveness and restoration.

Our "disposable" society
Has tossed out the baby with the bath water. So many times (as is the case with the current PODUS) we let rhetoric trump substance. Who remembers the addage "actions speak louder than words"? Looking at presidential hopefuls for 2012 there are plenty to choose from if you look not at what makes them different from you but what core values are shared. For me, it comes down to who puts actions such as hard work, self reliance, HONESTY and INTEGRITY along with GOD and family to work in their daily lives. Romney, Huckabee, Palin, Jindal, Ron Paul share these core values. John McCain did not. I sincerely appreciate what McCain did for me and this country but his actions on border control and Amnesty just didn't cut it for me. Obama had nothing but rhetoric and his history spoke volumns on how he would lead and no one was listening....until now. God Bless America. God Bless You all!

Twists and contortions
Hill brings up indirectly an essential truth. That many social conservatives do not share the values of economic conservatives, neo-con conservatives, liberatriam conservatives, etc.

For example many social conservatives support protecting the environment as protecting gods creation, here Hill rather childishly dismisses that as putting plants and animals over people. Many favor universal healthcare and dob't adopt again Hills rather cavaier and unproven contention that Universal healthcare will cause rationing.

Many social conservatives have the same worries as everyone else about the rising cost of healthcare and about their neighbors and fellow church members who lose health insurance and cannot afford care because of job loss or because there small business is in trouble and they had to make a difficult choice. They don't see anything in their bible that would prevent them from supporting universal healthcare.

The feeling amoung many social conservatives was that they Bush Administration and the Republicans in Congress let them down. They talked a big game about issues dear to social conservatives, but once in office they seem more prooccupied with doing the bidding of the neo-cons and economic conservatives.

The real problem is that Dobson himself does not reflect the movement anymore. Evangelicals are changing and in ways that make it more possible for many of them to vote for Blue Dog Democrats.

Dobson a great defender of the family
Jim Dobson saw early on that the disintegration of the family was the biggest threat to America. The family is the building block of society. Our families make our neighborhoods, which make our cities, which make our states, which make our nation. It is the collapse of the family unit that leads to the myriad of social ills we see today. From the exploding prison populations, babies having babies, the rise of gangs as a substitute for family, the need to escape the pain of life through drugs and alcohol.

As people have strayed away from the faith of their fathers, the state has stepped in to fill that void so that now instead of believing in God's faithfulness, they believe that the state will provide them a job, healthcare, an education, a house, etc. The election of Obama was people looking for a Messiah, only this one can't deliver.

I believe that Dr. Dobson got involved in politics because many decisions being made by Congress were damaging the family instead of making it stronger. The need for family will never change if we want to have a strong society. The answer for this nation is to turn back to the Godly principles on which it was established.

The Republican Party needs to stand as the party that reveres life, of the unborn and the elderly. It needs to remain the party of marriage being defined as one man one woman. It needs to remain the party of individual responsibility and not a nanny state.
Personally I supported Romney because he had a successful family and knew finance.

As for the poker playing Engineer, are you really telling me that being able to play poker on line is more important to you than the killing of the unborn in the womb?

Gay conservative
You are wrong. The social conservative movement is changing and not because of Dobson, but inspite of him. Take the issue of gay marrage, social conservatives still are against it and if given the opportunity will vote against it. But over time it is becoming less of litmus test issue for SC's. Support for gay marrage in some form is not a disqualifier of political candidate as it once was.


The Dirty Little Secret
I think the real question is why Dobson was voting for Romney who besides being a Mormon was also a (born again) social conservative over Mike Huckabee a consistent and reliable social conservative? I think the answer is that Dobson himself is more of a probusiness conservative them the members of his movement and Huckabee's mainstreet over wall street populism did not sit well with Dobson.

Hill is saying what Dobson did was right, but many are saying what he did was wrong. That it is Huckabee's kind of conservatism that is more to their liking than Romneys and not because he is a mormon but because they wonder if he really is a social conservative at all.

Has Dobson and the rest of paleosocial conservatives had put their support behind the only true evangelical running he might have gotton the nomination and then who knows. Obama would still likely be president but would he have won a state like Indiana or North Carolina and would the Republicans in Congress had done so badly maybe not.


It all goes together.
Austin mentions several issues important to social conservatives like me and then says that we should not concentrate on any one of them too much.
All of this debate is about sexual behaviour.There are consequences to sexual choices and the point of contention is how to deal with those consequences.Whether society as a whole is reponsible to deal with them (Liberal) or individuals should do so (Conservatives).Liberals tend to want to let people do what they want and dump the results on the greater society and Conservatives want to limit the behaviour of people because of the societal impact or else insulate society from that impact.(Let 'em deal with the consequences themselves.)
It seems that personal responsibilty and hard work go together with strong marriages.The socially responsible act of taking care of one's own family and NOT expecting everyone else to pony up their earnings to take care of the things that one implicitly consents to deal with when one has sex is a socially responsible position to take.

I sometimes wonder if it would not be more productive to codify the responsibilities that are shouldered when one has sex regardless of who one has sex with.

Geri
"As for the poker playing Engineer, are you really telling me that being able to play poker on line is more important to you than the killing of the unborn in the womb?"

I'm pro-life.

Let me ask you the same question. Is STOPPING PEOPLE FROM being able to play poker online is more important to you than the killing of the unborn in the womb? You see, Dobson and FoF chased off many who would have otherwise voted for pro-life candidates with his unyielding personal attacks against us, Internet freedom, and the great game of poker.

If you really want to help get votes for pro-life candidates, please write to FoF and ask them to focus more on what's important.

Dr. Dobson
I think Dr. Dobson understands the United States is showing all the signs of an immenient fall that were characteristic of various nations prior to their fall as outlined in the Bible.

The warning from the Bible that "...and everyone did what was right in his own eyes.." seems to be where we are presently. Dr. Dobson understands that nations ultimately fall on their own moral shortcomings.

Dr. Dobson has done all he can do to stop the slide, understanding that ultimately the end is up to the Lord.


Embrace Conservative Musims? Not likely
"If the movement is to survive, socially conservative Americans must be willing to form alliances with people who are like-minded on public policy matters, but who also may at times differ on theological matters. This already happens “behind the scenes.”"

Do we really believe that social Conservatives will even embrace Muslims. I think not.

Everybody has a choice
Although I disageed with Dr. Dobson's choice in Romney, it was his choice. I also disagree with what has happened in my Denomination as to those who from my denomination has entered politic, such as Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Mike Huckabee. These men DONOT represent the true Conservative Southern Baptist. One may stand in his carport or garage all day long, but that does not make him a car.
What we really need in Washington is a true Constitutionalist who WILL follow the Constitution as the framers intended and none of the above men nor men prceeding them from Lincoln on down has done so.
Dr. Dobson, had he followed the true conservative line, would have voted for Ron Paul(R) or Chuck Baldwin (Constitution Party)
Since and including Lincoln, there have been no real Constitutionalists in the Presidency, it matters not who presides. Republicans or Demcrats in power prove that nothing ever really changes in Washington.

Mr. Austin Hill
Please move on. Your theories and ideas are needed on a more intellectual site than TH Daily. Such as maybe dailykos.com or moveon.org.

TH Daily is for all us conservative, unlearned, Right-Wing, fundamentalist, religious "Christian Crazies" (CC's).

Although us CC's (Christian Crazies) might be a little bit more "learned" than President B.O.'s Liberal CC's. (Communist Cadre)

Engineer
You say you are pro life, but you would vote for a pro abortion candidate if he would support your right to play poker on line? Then I would ask how strong your commitment to life is. As strong as Senator Brownback of Kansas who supports Governor Sebelius, Obama's pick for Health and Human Services who has no problem the so called Dr. Tiller, famous for late term abortions.

Geri
I voted for pro-lifer Bob Barr for president.

Geri
However, you are right that many other poker players surely did vote for pro-choice candidates, as they were driven from the GOP by the likes of Dobson.

What a waste of time
Most of which (article and comments) proves that we're wasting time and energy over social issues that are going to be meaningless when the Islamists dictate sharia law at gunpoint, when Obama and crowd bankrupt the country, when the next Bernie Madoff ruins all of our retirements and when gas is priced a $10 a gallon. Grow up!

Beautiful Article!
I was filled with contempt when Dobson wouldn't publicly endorse Romney, and look we got McCain - A total political sleaze. I have been completely bothered by "conservative" comfort with big government in the Bush era...just so long as it pushed along conservative causes. It appears that conservatives have become too stupid to have enough foresight to recognize that a leader who thinks differently than them can use the same bueracratic structure to push their own agendas...like, oh say, ummmm Obama.

So I have become fed up with the double standards of so called "conservatism".
"Conservative" Republicans care about making government smaller like I care about how the local Belgian cheese markets are doing on any given Thursday. "Conservatives pay lip service to small government, and don't really care a whit about it.

This is why I am leaving the Republican party and will vote libertarian from now on. The Republican party is totally worthless.

The slippery slope
Dr. Dobson wrote several years ago about the slippery slope the country is on. It was a watershed article and still stands as a harbinger of things to come.

I'm not optimistic about the "social conservative" movement, or the country, for that matter. What really matters is what, or more specifically, Who, is in a person's heart. That's what's going to change the country.


Dark Fantasy
>when the Islamists dictate sharia law at gunpoint<

Are you talking about the United States? Do you know any Islamists in this country? The vast majority want nothing to do with Sharia law, much less want to dictate it at gunpoint.

It's ironic that Sharia Law is a lot closer to whims of James Dobson than it is to Main Street America, which prefers secular authority to that of deities.

Small government/Dobson
Big government has been the most dangerous domestic threat to the US for the last century. Even some self described conservatives are all for it when their candidates are in office, but eventually candidates they don't like are in office and big government suddenly becomes a bad idea again. Their shortsightedness is shocking.

I bailed out of the GOP and registered as a Libertarian last year. They are the only party serious about small government. I may be opposed to them on a few of their social views, but they can see the big picture and they respect the Constitution far more than big government conservatives. I know more than a dozen people who are fundamentalist Christians who switched from being Republicans to being Independents after the last election.

The best argument I have ever read about the relationship between Christians and government is Why Government Can't Save You: An Alternative to Political Activism by John MacArthur.

Before all of you go assuming that all fundamentalists and evangelicals are big fans of Dobson, remember that a lot of us have no respect for psychology (We often call it psychoheresey. Yes, there's a website.) So we couldn't care less what Dobson has to say about anything. There are even some who would go so far as to say it is not theologically/doctrinally possible to hold any stock in psychology and be a fundamentalist Christian at the same time anymore than it is possible to be a Hindu and a fundamentalist Christian at the same time. I'm undecided on that.

Fundamentalists and evangelicals are a wide range of people with a wide range of views (Ever been to a Baptist Church business meeting?) and the suggestion that Dobson or any other leader in the Conservative Christian category is somehow accurately representative of the political views of such a huge group of people is remarkably ignorant.

David in Washington
Science has now measured and proven that we live in an impossibly large and complex universe that is NOT infinite and had a beginning. A beginning where everything in this unfathomable universe was squeezed into a space smaller than one atom.

And you say religious creation beliefs are nuts?

Look, since science now knows reality is as big a miracle as any religion could ever make up ... on what grounds do you criticize The Virgin Birth et al?

We religious simply believe there is another dimension to reality. The spiritual dimension. A dimension where the speed of light is not a constant but can be superseded by the speed of thought. We further believe that there must be a First Cause to creation and a designer.

As to which religion has a handle on 'the truth' ... well the info is out there and every person can make his choice. Personally Judaism and its offshoot Christianity makes the most sense and offers the best deal.

You have chosen non-religion as your religion. Good luck selling THAT to enough people to build a society on. Its never been done before and looks to be a total failure already. You won't be able to pay enough police to keep the criminal element in check. So your society will instantly devolve into a totalitarian dictatorship and flail wildly about as did Rome depending on which madman was at the helm.

I know you THINK you are going to get a 'Star Trek Utopian' 'Federation' or something but instead you will get Darth Vader and the Empire.

But you and Bill go ahead. Through away religion. Enjoy your utopia.

Poker
Dobson and Bush were both big government conservatives, wanting to inject either religion or government funding for various pet projects. I myself settled on Bob Barr because he is a libertarian. while he may have been pro-life, that issue isn't that imperative to me. Unless, you are a pro-life crazy that doesn't condone abortion in cases of rape or incest.

It is obvious
That the author of this article is not a Christian, or he would not need to ask the question "why is it that...social conservatives would place theology and religious affiliation above all other considerations?". The answer is known by all TRUE Christians: We are bondservants to Christ. He is our LORD, MASTER, OWNER, etc. as well as Savior. If Christ is not Lord, He is not Savior. We are instructed to place Him first, above all.

morality
In my lifetime of 89 years, I witnessed an era where the basic principles of the Ten Commandments of God were taken seriously, taught in schools, and violence and crime was at an all time low, and we did not have to lock our doors, or our cars, as crime was rare.This was our creator's design for people living together in peace and harmony. When Americans decided that they were no longer vital to our nation's welfare, we threw all these aside, and what do we have now? Crime and fear to walk the streets, go into a store at night for fear of being robbed, or our leaders taking us "for a cleaning" for what we earn by the sweat of our brow in order to police our nation to curb the violence that plagues us every day. Will Americans never learn why? Will we ever get our blinders off and see what has happened to our nation and our constitution as a result of our own actions?

Great article, Austin
We miss hearing you on the radio here!

In '08 we ended up with McCain vs. Obama instead of Romney vs. Obama for the same reason we ended up with Janet as AZ's governor instead of the very likable Matt Salmon; because evangelicals simply couldn't bring themselves to endorse a Mormon. As a result, we have liberal extremists instead.

Conservatives, it's time to wake up and stop nitpicking over little differences when there are essentials on which we can unify; or perhaps even now it's already too late.

Dr. Dobson
I thank God for Dr. Dobson and I am thankful to him for all he is done. However, I am not a follow of Dr. Dobson, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I make my political decision based upon the person who I think would best represent my values. In the primaries, John McCain was not that man. I voted for Alan Keyes because I thought he best represented my beliefs. For the general election, I held my nose and voted for John McCain. One thing that conservatives better get used to, is that they can not take the vote for evangelicals for granted. The republicans have seriously drifted to the left when in comes to moral issues. The are far too many G. Gordon Liddys and Arnolds out there. I am in favor of abandoning the republican party and starting an Evangelical party. We may not win, however we can send a message to the Republicans that if they abandon their social conservative values, they may loose a big chunk of their support. They are many of us that are politically active just for the sake of protecting the moral fiber of our country. Actually, I agree with the person, that Evangelicals would be better off to totally abandon politics and to simply focus on spreading the gospel. If we did that, there might be hope for a majority in the future.

Dr. Dobson
Dr.Dobson was someone who wanted parents to beat their children to make them behave appropriately. He was an authoritarian figure who confused himself with god. Fortunately, he is bowing out. Too bad he didn't do it 20 years ago.

Duncan, get your facts straight
I read several of Dr. Dobson's books and he never advocated parents beating their children. If you don't know the difference between a spanking and a beating, you should stay away from the idea of reproducing. Looks like all you can do is attack a straw man. What a putz!

Lolo and Ms Kelly
I agree with you both - to a point. Yes, Christians should be on our knees begging God's forgveness for dropping the ball for far too long. Jesus called on us to reach out, teach, lead, and disciple the lost. The Christian church has been AWOL for at least 40 years. When the Supreme Court ruled against prayer in school - we should have marched and demanded action. When the court said OK to killing millions of babies, we should have dismantled the court. When courts in Mass and Cal OK the abomination of gay mmarriage, we should take a non-bending stand. These would all serve to educate the populace. However, Ms. Kelly, the Lord also ordered the Israeis to wipe out the heathens when they occupied the promised land. Now, before someone hyperventilates, I do not say to burn Mormon churches or slaughter them in the streets. But Christians must educate them to the error of following a liar like Joe Smith. I pray daily, several times a day for a revival in the US. Yes, that includes Mormons, the heathen now occupying the WHite House, the heathens running the Congress and Christians who want to tolerate disobedience to God.

Lolo and Ms Kelly 2
I have been saved for 9 years now. I was truly a late bloomer (33). I grew up in New England - the most unGodly area of the US. In school it was "cool" to be an athiest. "Smart" people didn't believe in God. I thank God he brought a Godly woman in my life and trouble to my life to make me realize my way wasn't working. Incidentally, I have read the Bible cover to cover 5 times. I'm currently on the 6th time. I learn something each time I pick it up (daily).

But, Romney is a danger to America. Look at the effect Obama has. Don't you think aMormon in the White House will encourage others to join the cult? Furthermore, for the rest of the group here, Romney is no conservative. He oversaw the socialization of medicine in Mass. They are having a lot of trouble with that now. He was for killing babies before he decided to run for national office. He claimed to be more pro-baby killing than Teddy Kennedy when running in Mass. As I said, he will destroy yhe GOP. Liberals here are hoping for that. I am a Christian first, husband and father second, American third (veteran), and Republican after that. If the GOP nominates him, I and many others will leave. Maybe never to return. That would be bad for the US, death to the GOP, but needed to honor God.

me
You are exactly right

Engineer
A short, personal, true story. We live in Ohio. Several times in the past decade the gambling halls have triedto amend our laws to open one in Ohio. I thank God that the voters have rejected them each time. We knew a family in a bad situation. He was not very gifted in much. They were married, had kids, but could not really provide. The kids always had torn, ripped clothes. Food was scarce. One year, they got $2000 from the US in a tax rebate. She had plans for clothes, bills and some good food. He went to a casino in West Virginia. He blew the entire $2000. I think they are divorced now. Gambling leads to no good. The Bible is very clear - Proverbs 22:22 Do not rob the poor because he is poor. The casinos (either in person or online) exist to make money. I have no problem with a business making money ethically. But preyin on the uneducated, poor, and needy is not ethical. And that is what the gambling intersts do - prey on the downtrodden. I agree with the question about your commitment. If you vote for a baby killer because of a position on gambling - shame on you.

Cudlow
First of all, I didn't vote for a pro-choice candidate. I voted for Bob Barr in '08 for president, and pro-life candidates for the Senate and the House. My point is that many other pro poker rights voters did vote for pro-choice candidates. After all, the GOP showed us the door -- literally.

I'm sorry to hear about your acquaintance who was in financial difficulties. However, it's not fair to blame casinos, IMO. The person used his liberty and made the wrong choice. It's his fault. Additionally, he could have (and likely would have) blown his money in any number of ways. Should the federal government assign him his personal nanny to ensure he spends his money wisely? Should we all give our rights to the federal government and have them dole them out based on what they feel we can handle?

Also, I'm not advocating casinos, or even gambling. I'm advocating poker. "Gambling" is defined by most state laws as wagering on games of chance. Poker, OTOH, is a peer-to-peer game of skill in which the house has no financial interest in the outcome.

Finally, Internet poker won't go away. Surely it's better to regulate it, enabling verifiable age verification and protections for those with excessive gaming habits while providing consumer protections to adults who responsibly enjoy a hand of poker. The fake, ineffective, feel-good prohibition does nothing for anyone.

Cudlow
One more thing. Do you really believe that, if 1% of people have a problem with something, the other 99% ought to have their liberties restricted? If so, we'd better get prepared for a lot of new bans.

Cudlow
"The casinos (either in person or online) exist to make money. I have no problem with a business making money ethically. But preyin on the uneducated, poor, and needy is not ethical. And that is what the gambling intersts do - prey on the downtrodden."

Seems you are just parroting the talking points of gaming opponents here. First of all, all businesses exist to make money. Even non-profits need enough to pay for their operations. Some people enjoy golfing, some enjoy fishing, and some enjoy poker. Most play responsibly (though I have seen some golfers go overboard on equipment).

Next, not everyone who plays poker is "downtrodden". I don't know why you think they are. Rather, most are able to afford to play. This is especially true online, where stakes in the pennies are available.

I know gaming opponents would have everyone believe that casinos exploit poor people. It's funny how that argument is less effective the closer the people are to casinos.

Anyway, this is about liberty, and we will stand up for our rights. If that costs the GOP some votes for standing proudly for big government nannies for all, so be it.

liberal sods by the sea
" His “green energy” environmental plans elevate the interests of plant and animal life over and above the interests of human life. "

no.
plants need carbon dioxide and obama says he wants to limit carbon dioxide, i.e. tax it.

green house gases are goooood.
it we didn't have them, welcome to mars II.

these liberals think they are sooo much smarter than anyone else.

i want a clean, living planet. i and you do not want to pollute our ground, water, or air.
carbon is not the enemy of life. it is the foundation of life. without it plants could not live, ergo animal life.
and without the coca plant . . no blow?

adios,
ab
lancaster, prop8ifornia
push 1 for english you clueless, feckless gringos.

got comprehensive immigration bill?

Dobson WRONG about “Unfit-Mitt”

And so is Austin Hill: http://massresistance.org/romney/

NOW, let's answer this post.
The Engineer: KY Mar 9, 2009 - 4:54 AM EST

“keep big government social conservatives -- a small but very loud minority of the party-- happy. Many of us wrote to the GOP platform committee to express our concerns about inclusion of a plank backing an on-line poker prohibition. The draft committee removed it, citing the need for votes on Election Day. The full committee restored it, unfortunately (and the member who restored it told a woman who objected to join the Libertarian Party...nice touch).”

“I hope we can fix it before the next presidential election (clearly nothing is being done to be ready for '10, so I won't even hold that out as a possibility).”

My Response:
If I understand this. The Engineer is an articulate Atheist who may not support his own political party (Republicans), because THE SMALL GOVERNMENT “Social Conservatives” want to put a stop to “Internet Gambling?” Hmmm... These sites ONLY permit people to play for fun, so they can get them hooked (The way the Engineer, apparently is, or am I mistaken?) Most people who do not believe in anything greater than themselves want to blame someone or something else for their mistakes!

Question: Does the Republican Party NEED an another Atheist Engineer? By that I mean, can TRUE Conservatives rely on him in the next election anyway, his primary issue within his party is on-line gambling (Poker sites). Why not re-register as a Libertarian, where his 4% of the population feel more at home? Isn't this rather like those problematic “Log-Cabin” Tinker-Bells?

Michael W.
“Reagan Democrat”

conservatives and religion
I have been a republican probably longer than most of you have been alive and a Christian even longer. Mitt Romney was, is, and will be the best candidate for 2012. Dwight Esienhour was a Jehovahas Wittness until 2 years before he ran and no one seems to have a problem with that. And as a born again believer, well that didn't work out so good the last time, not because of religion, but because of the man.Character is not dependent on what you profess to believe, but the core beliefs you have and do not compromise on for any reason.
Bush was not is not and will never be a conservative, because he is was and will be a globalizationist, and the two are mutally exclusive. AS a country we are way past labels it is are we going to be free Americans or our we going to be absorbed by the one world socialism movement.

Republican
Until social conservatives have the fortitude to reject the notion hat they must also vote Republican, nothing will ever change. The Grand Ol' Party is a joke these days and the only thing socially conservative about them is their platform; a platform which very few of them (and that includes Romney - regardless of his goofy theology) actually work to bring to reality. The GOP is a joke - plain and simple. We need some new and truly conservative representation in the local city halls and county boards long before we worry about the white house and the halls of congress. Whatever happened to generational planning? We should be planning our take over for a couple of hundred years down the road - not next November of 2012. How short sighted we've become.

Theology does matter
While I understand that politics sometimes makes for strange bedfellows, your view on who God is does matter. People, however, should not reject a politician SIMPLY because he thinks Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer. When it comes to getting things done politically, we need to form alliances with a wide range of people we don't necessarily agree with all the time. But, please understand that I evaluate the fitness of a candidate through a range of criteria.

This evaluation includes his theology. That Romney believes the things taught in the Mormon church is disturbing: Mormons do not believe Jesus is God; the Book of Mormon contains "historical" events, peoples and places that have never been discovered by archaeology; the Book of Mormon is supposedly of ancient origin, given to the 19th century Joseph Smith and yet, reads in King James English.

That Romney is deceived by silly theology makes me wonder how easily he can be deceived on political issues. If I endorse a candidate, I will make certain that it is not because I subscribe to his theology. It is because the policies he favors are the same policies I favor. Last primary my vote went to Romney because his policies seemed more in line with my understanding of Scripture than McCain's or Huckabee's (even though Huckabee is a Christian).

So I guess I am agreeing with the author, but want people to understand that my theology is wrapped up into how I vote. And how I vote has at least something to do with how the candidate views God.

Michael W.
I'm no atheist. Please don't bear false witness against me again. Thanks.

As for poker, it's not particularly addictive. You say it is to justify your desire for big government regulation over the lives of your neighbors, but it's not.

Uhh...no I'm not "hooked". Again, these are standard big government nanny-stater talking points used to justify restrictions of liberty. And, again with the false witness. Please stop that. It's sad that you have to resort to ad hominen attacks.

Perhaps you're correct in assuming the GOP doesn't need pro-life, pro-Second Amendment voters who value liberty, but it didn't seem that way last year. I guess we'll see in 2010. Good luck with that.

Michael W.
"By that I mean, can TRUE Conservatives rely on him in the next election anyway, his primary issue within his party is on-line gambling (Poker sites). Why not re-register as a Libertarian, where his 4% of the population feel more at home?"

LOL. Of the two of us, I'm the true conservative. You're the big government nanny-stater.

You are right about one thing, though. Our votes are not automatic, and we'll never have the blind party loyalty you seem to value. You will have to earn our votes each election cycle.

So, which is more important to you? Using big government to stop me from playing poker in my own home, or getting more votes for pro-life candidates? It's your choice.

a in FL
"I offer a toast to a wasted life...
Fare thee well, Dr. Dobson. Your intolerance will go down in the annals of bigotry."

Such hate. Who's intolerant?

Updated my blog on this topic
Check out http://internetpokerrights.blogtownhall.com/

Sorry, surfcity#2
But you just described yourself. You can't see it, can you? The hatred and intolerance that you have an awareness of, Sir, is staring back at you from your mirror.

Good article, Austin. I agree that it was a shame that Romney did not get the support of many evangelicals. I openly disagreed with those that refused to support him simply on the basis of his religion, even my closest friend. As if having a Mormon in office would cause a mass influx of people into the Mormon church. George Bush was a committed evangelical and I didn't notice people joining the Methodist church en mass during his administration. And I'm as conservative and evangelical as they come.

Your points are well taken and I pray that many Christians will do some soul-searching here.

“Unfit-Mitt” is JUST THAT

Victoria Location: CA  Mar 10,- 11:08 PM EST
Sorry, surfcity#2 “The hatred and intolerance that you have an awareness of, Sir, is staring back at you...And I'm as conservative and evangelical as they come.”

Response:

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ROMNEY BEING A MORMON because he does NOT support the principles of his faith in any event. THIS IS ABOUT “Unfit-Mitt” being a LIBERAL wolf in sheep's clothing.

Victoria's Homosexual “Talking Points” give her away. Numerous members of the TH “Gay Activist Patrol” claim to be whatever it takes to convince True Conservatives that they are one of us.

She is ether incredible ignorant of the facts or she is a Homosexual Activist looking to distract the TH readers (with NO citations).

Here is the Truth about Mitt Romney from Conservatives in MA and around the country:

“One of the few conservative publications to expose Romney's liberalism is the conservative weekly Human Events which (in a 2005 article) listed Romney at number eight on its list of "Top Ten Republicans in Name Only (RINOs)." Indeed, this report will demonstrate that Romney was probably the most pro-abortion and pro-gay rights Republican official in the nation for the last decade...”

http://massresistance.org/romney/

An Open Letter to Rush Limbaugh... Ninety-five legal authorities, social conservative leaders, writers and radio hosts and other public persons are listed below. Each affirms here (or has previously affirmed in their own words) some or all of the disturbing content of this letter. Signatures of countless state-level and grassroots leaders have not been listed in the interest of brevity.

http://rushtellthetruth.blogspot.com/2008/08/open-letter-to -rush-limbaugh.html

Mitt Romney's attempt to “PURCHASE” talk radio celebrities.

http://www.clearchannel.com/Corporate/PressRelease.aspx?Pre ssReleaseID=2239


My Mistake (in part)

The Engineer: KY  Mar 10, 2009 - 12:27 PM EST

“I'm no atheist. Please don't bear false witness... Thanks. As for poker, it's not particularly addictive...”

Response:

I went back and re-read all your posts and could not find an Atheist claim, so you have my apology.

As to Poker or any other game that involves betting money to win the game, it can be addictive. I have been playing stud poker for over 40 years and Texas Hold-em since 1992. I personally know Poker addicts.

However, readers don't have to take my word (or yours) on this issue.

See: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~brianz/beatingTheAddiction.ht ml

AND don't use our “MUTUAL” loathing of Big Government tax and spend and our “Pro-Life” or Pro-Second Amendment sentiments as a smoke screen to cover your personal obsession.

You see I really did re-read your posts!

You (in my opinion) are taking an obsession (possible addiction) beyond reasonable Liberty Rights. NO, I don't want anyone (especially children) to be exploited on the Internet and yes I would bring back the Hayes Commission in attempt to reduce the continuing moral decline in America.

Furthermore, I would tract down every child porn site on the Internet any put those S.O.B's away for life. If that is trampling on your Libertarian toes, TOO BAD! Save your bogus choices.

Today, the last remaining virtue has become tolerance! Every kind of vice, addiction and perversion must be accepted! Well, personally I'm glad the Republicans showed you the door and if you can't find a poker game that does NOT involve betting money on the Internet, that's too bad! I still play once a week and if you need to play 24/7...
As they say at TH...LOL

Michael W.
I don't know why you think you know how much poker I do or do not play. You do like to draw conclusions based on your preconceived biases.

It's no obsession. If I were addicted, I wouldn't have the time to do this advocacy work. Rather, I'm simply skilled enough to turn a decent profit (it's a real profit -- I keep meticulous records and I pay income taxes on it each year). Others who do not make a regular profit derive entertainment value from the game (much like a recreational golfer or fisherman). So, it's win-win.

LOL at you thinking in-person poker for money is virtuous and online poker is a vice. Many here (not me, though) branded you a hypocrite when they read that. I prefer to play in my home with my wife at my side than in a smoky casino. It really is about liberty.

I'd be more than happy to join you in stamping out child porn.

My limited government beliefs are no smoke screen. They are actual principles. The benefit here is that I actually believe in liberty, rather than believing in limited government only when it conveniently aligns with what I want government to do.

I'm glad you're happy the GOP showed us the door. I hope the current Democrat majority is to your liking.

Poker at Home in 2009 AD

The Engineer KY Mar 11, 2009 - 10:19 AM EST
“I keep meticulous records and I pay income taxes on it each year). Others who do not make a regular profit derive entertainment value from the game (much like a recreational golfer or fisherman). So, it's win-win...

I prefer to play in my home with my wife at my side than in a smoky casino. It really is about liberty...I hope the current Democrat majority is to your liking. ”

Response:

Of the 92 posts on this thread (thus far) The Engineer is responsible for 20, primarily on subject of POKER, as opposed to Doctor Dobson. If any reader actually believes “The Engineer” is not O.C.D on the subject of POKER, I know of some property in the FL “Everglades” that you can buy very cheep.

As for me, I play my poker at the home of a friend with guys I have known for 40+ years> It's a place where children can't sneak in and play (pretending to be adults).

BTW...Any professional poker player will admit that there is an element of luck that just goes with the game. IT IS A GAME OF CHANCE, as well as skill and please note that our “Engineer” had nothing to say about the “Poker Addicts” website?

See: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~brianz/beatingTheAddiction.ht ml

His argument REALLY and finally collapses when he tells Republicans, if they don't support his cause, he will waste his next “Pro-Life” vote on a third party presidential candidate that CAN'T WIN, as he did in 2008.

He just doesn't get it...It's NEVER a good idea to throw the Baby out with the bathwater!

Sorry Engineer, but that dog won't hunt. You may win at poker on a regular basis, but when comes to protecting the sanctity of life, you are putting the pursuit of happiness before Liberty OR Life and that makes you a real looser!



Michael W.
Mike,

I made a couple of posts here in response to Dobson's over-the-top efforts to stop online poker. My other posts were replies to posts to me. So what? You act like people shouldn't stick up for their rights. I hope more people will be passionate about liberty.

I read the link you provided. What did you want me to say about it? Did you want me to respond to every point, or do you have specific questions? Regardless, please check my blog. You'll see I've responded to most of these issues already, especially underage participation.

Finally, LOL at your disappointment that we're not all voting GOP when you just wrote a few posts ago that you're happy we were driven out. Seems you're the loser, as you and folks like you are the ones who asked us not to vote GOP (as if you have excess votes or something). You know, YOU ALL threw the baby out with the bathwater, and for what? To stop people you don't know from playing a little poker? If you're happy with that trade-off, then so be it, but don't blame us for it.

By the way, people like me are protecting people like you (people who wish to play kitchen table poker) from people like you (people who think poker is evil), and we've won some court cases recently defending your right to do just that. Check my blog for info

FoF crying about Obama again
From today's whiny FoF email alert: "Senate Confirms Porn Lawyer as Deputy Attorney General....Ogden has a poor record of protecting children from the exploitations of child pornography and obscenity. The Senate confirmed David Ogden as deputy attorney general today by a 65-28 vote."

Gee, that's a shame, huh Michael? Still happy we were shown the door?

LOL at Dobson placing his crusade to stop adults from playing poker in their own homes above stuff every other conservative in America cares about.
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