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Sunday, January 11, 2009
Austin Hill :: Townhall.com Columnist
Obama On Hamas: "Hope" That Murderous Behavior Will "Change?"
by Austin Hill
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Does America make terrorists hate and kill? Is it time for the United States to ‘befriend” Hamas?

Last Thursday, a report emerged from England that President-elect Obama is planning to open up “low level” contact with Hamas, and that such contact will likely be initiated through U.S. intelligence channels. Suzanne Goldenberg, a journalist with the Washington, DC bureau of the UK’s “Guardian” publication, reported that the forthcoming Obama Administration wishes to abandon President Bush’s policy of isolating Hamas, believing that this policy has failed to produce desirable results.

Without getting sidetracked, I must point out that this is the third time in approximately four months where bizarre news about Obama has emerged from England. The fact that our wealth re-distributing President-elect has a brother living in a hut - - and in abject poverty - - in a rural part of Kenya, and the fact that Obama has an Aunt living as an illegal alien in Massachusetts, were both news items that first emerged from British journalists. Apparently, information about Obama’s extended family, and his purported desire to “work with” Hamas, is information that is either un-interesting, or un-knowable, to American journalists covering the soon-to-be American President.

But more importantly, the notion that President Obama needs to abandon the Bush policy on Hamas because of its supposed failure is a notion that invites several questions. And as I talked about this “breaking news” last Thursday on my radio program at Washington, DC’s 630 WMAL, several questions emerged in the discussion.

Why, necessarily, is the American policy of isolation with Hamas a “failure?” Because despite the isolation, Hamas still attacks Israel, and still poses threats elsewhere. And why does Hamas still threaten and attack and kill? Because it is left isolated by the West, and especially by the United States.

This was the rather circular reasoning that emerged from several callers to my radio show. And both lines of reasoning dismiss the Hamas organization from responsibility for its own murderous behavior, and lay blame for that murderous behavior on a “third party” - - in this case, the U.S.A.

Other callers to my show took more of a “can you feel their pain?” approach. “How would you like it” I was asked by one particular caller, “ if you were cut-off from the rest of the world, and barely had enough food to provide your children or had no access to education, or adequate clothing, or healthcare?”

“I would not like it” I told the caller, “but I would still not choose to murder.”

“Actually,” another caller stated to me, “Hamas didn’t need to behave this way until Bush began treating them the way he has..”

“In what sense does Hamas have a need to murder?” I asked.

“Well, I’m just saying, Hamas is in a horrible situation…”

I suspect that there are millions of my fellow Americans who tend to engage in this kind of thinking regarding Hamas, and perhaps regarding other terrorist organizations as well. And in my experience, when faced with a challenge to their assumptions and their line of reasoning, they often begin to back away from the logical outcomes of that reasoning.

And they should back away from it. If one asserts that Hamas and other terrorist organizations do what they do, simply because members of these groups lack adequate material provision or have been mistreated by other people groups, such assertions lead to two very troubling conclusions: A) Terrorists are ultimately not responsible for their behavior; and B) The behavior of terrorists is justifiable given their difficult circumstances.

This kind of reasoning is usually frowned-upon in every day, “real life” scenarios. For example, most Americans would likely find it abhorrent to excuse the destructive behavior of a wayward teenager, or a reckless adult employee in the workplace. Likewise, the argument that says “he stole money from our company because we don’t pay him enough in salary” would be unacceptable as well.

When you reward bad behavior, you inevitably get more bad behavior in response, not less. It’s true in parenting, and it’s true in organizational and business management. And the axiom applies to public policy, and foreign policy, as well.

The Bush policy says to Hamas “you have behaved your way out of the possibility of a relationship with us; your behavior makes such a possibility untenable.” It rightly stipulates that the responsibility for the lack of relationship lies with the offending party - - Hamas - - rather than excusing the behavior and laying blame on others.

This is not to say, as many do, that the Bush Administration has been “one-sided” with the Israel/Hamas dilemma. On the contrary, President Bush himself has repeatedly asserted that a Palestinian State ought to exist.

But for all his failings, especially on economic policy, President Bush has spoken with tremendous logical and moral clarity on this issue.

Let us pray that President Obama chooses such moral clarity, rather than choosing to reward bad behavior with the “hope” that the behavior might “change.”

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About The Author
Austin Hill is a Talk Show Host At Boise, Idaho's 580 KIDO Radio, and a frequent Guest Host on the Fox Newstalk Radio Network. He is the Author of "White House Confidential: The Little Book Of Weird Presidential History," And Co-Author of the forthcoming title "The Virtues Of Capitalism: A Moral Case For Free Markets" (Northfield/Moody Press, 2010).
 
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To Denise
These guys reveal some very ugly truths about themselves when they champion Arab refugees but ignore Jewish ones, and when they angrily denounce Jewish military responses but excuse thousands of Arab attempts at mass murder.

If they were against aggressive violence and forcible dispossession as they CLAIM, they would have to be equally upset by the aggressive violence and forcible dispossession directed against the Jews. Yet on these matters they are utterly silent. Thus, assuming they actually possess the principles they say they hold, then either they are ignorant of the facts, or they merely hate Jews.

Tom - Correction
Subject: Tom
Please give it up and use your energy to drive your Porsche to the nearest mosque. Perhaps, they will give you an Honorary Doctorate from their madras.

Insha Allah or Allah Aqaba!

Tom
Please give it up and use your energy to drive your Porsche to drive to the nearest mosque.

Tallil2long
Merci beaucoup!

In your response to Tom, you took the words right out of my bouche.

To Tom
"You really need to start protesting, boycotting, and condemning those liars and fabricators from the the official Israel government in Tel Aviv."

If one really believes that Israel's responses are inappropriate and/or deliberately targetting civilians and/or criminally negligent in not doing enough to avoid collateral casualties, you are correct.

And if YOU, personally, had any problem with Hamas launching thousands of attempts at mass murder every year, YOU would be protesting against Hamas and the Gaza authorities. Since you clearly are not (being able to find nothing but excuses for their behavior) I must conclude that you *support* attempted mass murder and find nothing wrong with it in principle.

Is that only because the intended targets are JEWS, or do you just reckon that all unsuccessful murder attempts are 'no harm no foul' incidents? Wonder whether you would apply this in your own life, if someone tried to kill you or one of your family?

Nah, if it were YOUR life or YOUR family that had been risked, you would insist on justice. Well, guess what? Nobody has been able to execute justice on the Palestinian Arab perpetrators; the UN doesn't even try, they turn a blind eye. So Israel has to try, and the Palestinian Arabs, ever since 1921, have ruled out any method other than violence and war.

Denise
You also evade the subject per the question about media bias. You brought it up. Remember?

So I mentioned that the Israel government reported the huge number of Pals that were killed as compared to Israeli's. I asked if you thought the Israeli "media" was as bad as CNN and the others you took to task for reporting bad stuff in Gaza.

You replied by giving your opinion on what and why Hamas does things. That was not the question. But you probably know that and simply didn't have a reply. Right?

Denise
You seem to be evading the point. Here it is again in simpler terms:

A few months prior to 9/11 President George W Bush received a memo from the CIA that was titled:

"BIN-LADEN DETERMINED TO STRIKE INSIDE THE USA"

The memo included the notation that hi-jacked air planes could be used.

Why do you mention Clinton and 1993? This refers to President Bush and 2001.


Tom & Hamas & AQ
"I'ts even worse when Israel actually admits that so far they have killed 517 with no less than 330 civilians and 43 of them children."

Well, if Hamas would quit using women and children as human shields, then civilians there would be fewer deaths. The Leader "no skin in the game" of Hamas is safely in Damascus and has stated that the group's real objective is not Palestine, but the destruction of Israel and Jews.

Bravo on taking less than 18 hours to find pre-9/11 evidence when Bubba couldn't do it in 8 years. He knew about AQ right after the 1993 WTC attack.

Tom for Director of the CIA! You would be much better than Leon "007" Panetta.

Denise !
Apparently,The FBI was doing something about the threat.
Attribution:Transcript August 6th,2001 Presidential Briefing.
" The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full-field investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers bin Laden-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group or bin Laden supporters was in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives."

Denise
Yeah, it's terrible how CNN and the rest of the media lies about what they show in Gaza.

I'ts even worse when Israel actually admits that so far they have killed 517 with no less than 330 civilians and 43 of them children.

You really need to start protesting, boycotting, and condemning those liars and fabricators from the the official Israel government in Tel Aviv.

rdk said:
"I thought elections, pursuant to Bush/Rice logic, were the solution to each and every problem."

Yeah that is exactly what President Bush told us was the magic bullet in the Middle East. "freedom and democracy" I think were his words and that it will spread like wildfire.

Team Bush tries to pretend that their mindless blurting are not partly to blame for the mess in Palestine. Bush got exactly what he askled for and it blew up in his face. Now they are in the clever position of opposing the nut case group that they HELPED to legitimately get into power.

Sort of like what lil George did in Iraq: Thought he had a great idea but didn't bother to think it through.

Denise
Yes, Slick Willy made some mistakes.

However, he never received a memo titled:

"BIN-LADEN DETERMINED TO STRIKE INSIDE THE UNITED STATES"

I'm sure that since the 9/11 attacks occurred after Bush saw that memo, it is rather emabarrassing now to Team Bush that they disregarded it.

Or do you think they did the right thing?

Maybe...
Maybe when Israel finishes with Hamas they can come free US of the Marxists who have taken control of our government.

Never Heckel The Shekel
Melvin, don't you just love all of the reports of Israeli astrocites and the killing of little Palestinians?

Israel has the capacity to wipe Gaza off the map and shows restraint, while Hamas uses children as human shields.

And, take that propaganda video where two innocent, little Palestinian boys are killed by a rooftop airstrike. Look closely, the plastic yard furniture and the laundry hanging on the clothesline fail to move a millimeter. And, of course, you would expect there to be a hole in the roof, but there is NO damage at all.

The Terrorist-loving CNN aired this ridiculous video in an effort to show how heartless the Israelis are along with the follow-up showing doctors trying to "save" the boys. If they were hit with an airstrike, there either would be little left of the little children to save OR there would be blood in the bloodless video.

Palestinians had their chance
When Israel moved out of Gaza it left vinyards, greenhouses and viable businesses. Instead of moving in and making a strong self supporting area it destroyed the businesses just as it destroys everything it touches.
It is time the world quit looking at Hammas as
a group who will ever be peaceful. It is evil and only knows how to destroy, whether it be a country or its own people and families.

Never Heckel The Shekel
The Gaza territory has no manufacturing ability. There is nothing produced but rhetoric by the warlords which give Gazians hope for a better standard of living. The average Gazian survives only because of food and medical donations from the world bank. A Gazian can earn extras by becoming loyal to one of the warlords. This might give him enough Shekels to live comfortably. The warlords are paid by Israel in exchange for information and peace. This corruption is so extreme that warlords gladly give out info to the Israel Defense Force in exchange for Shekels. The Israel air force is then able to pinpoint their targets. Bombs are then dropped on the hideouts of the most vicious of terrorists. Unfortunately the warlords info does not include the presence of civilians. The war that is now taking place between Israel and Gaza is because of a dispute between warlords about the distribution of Israeli Shekels. One warlord who had ten wives and fifty children was recently killed by an opposing warlord that was shortchanged. It was done by begging Israel to bomb his home. There is no doubt that peace will arrive as soon as the shekels are distributed fairly. Political ideology has nothing to do with the war in Gaza, It is all about warlords and their possession of Israeli Shekels.




SOCK IT TO HAMAS--AND IRAN ALSO!
Use General Sherman's MARCH TO THE SEA approach to HAMAS and IRAN. The proper "low level" approach is an Israeli soldier or a U.S. Marine with a rifle shooting the terrorists.
***
If you like "high level" approaches an F16 with a 1000 pound bomb will work nicely!
***
Fight on to victory. Rockeman

To Anne
Oh, I doubt it's incompetence, though that possibility should never be utterly discarded.

To nomo
"Every religion seems to have a fringe element of extreme fundamentalists who believe god is on their side and, therefore, they are justified in their terrorist’s acts."

True. But it was the Palestinian Arab civilian population who voted a terrorist organization into leadership of their state. Does a majority constitute a 'fringe element'?

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Hamas_wins_Palestinian_election


Huge Point
Honestly, a HUGE point that this article only briefly discusses is the fact that important news about our newly-elected President seems to be available in Europe, but not in the United States. Whether they're incompetent or biased or both, America's mainstream journalism SUCKS.

Obama definitely
needs to grow up...or just plainly grow. Someone so detached from reality should not run the biggest company on earth. Maybe he should take a Terrorist 101 refresher course. God bless America we should be protected from this fool.

Peace Offering In Gaza
Peace in Gaza is not far away. War lords in Gaza are now fighting among themselves for the lions share of the billion dollar peace offering. As soon as the booty is distributed fairly there will be peace in Gaza. Lets thank the world bank for their generous donation to the peace process.

LC, uhh, Syntax?
Isn't that what a Kansan has to pay for believing in Evolution?

Prediction
The Palestinian problem will not be solved any time soon because the Palestinians will not accept any solution other than kicking the Jews out of Israel. The Israelis gave them Gaza. If they had peacefully taken steps to build on that opportunity, the Israelis would be prompted to address other issues.

However, Hamas continues to villify the Jews, call for the destruction of Israel, and shoot rockets into Israel.

The United States under Obama will try to differentiate its approach from Bush's. Several years hence, when this fails, they hope that public opinion will have turned so against Israel that they can wind down American support without serious resistance. Part of the process of turning America against Israel will be political -- the growth of the American Middle Eastern populations is much greater than the growth of Jews in America, and votes count. The Islamists in the U.S. are also relentless and implacable, while most Jews are deeply immersed in everyday life, and less interested in supporting foreign causes. Further, more and more secular Jews are embarrassed by Israel and by their own Jewishness; there will be more and more Jews who are willing to make the case that Israel is the bad guy. Finally, America's chief "allies" -- the Europeans -- are becoming more and more beholden to their large, unassimilated Middle Easter populations, who have already played a key role in pushing politicians there into an anti Israel stance.

By the time the destruction of Israel occurs, most Americans won't care any more than they cared about the slaughter of the Rwandans, the Iraquis tortured by Saddam, or the Cambodians.

That's the plan, folks. Hope I'm wrong.

Eh what?
"President Bush has spoken with tremendous logical and moral clarity on this issue." Maybe if he spoke with a sense of reality then events would not have deteriorated so quickly. There were some fare and free elections in which Hamas beat Fahtah. I thought elections, pursuant to Bush/Rice logic, were the solution to each and every problem.

Is anyone
Having trouble reading the comments? I click and get no comments.

OBAMA, GAZA AND JOHN MCCAIN
Let's cut to the chase: if John McCain were President-elect he would be standing firmly behind Israel in the Gaza War. Obama's silence isn't golden, if he stood behind Israel he would say so. The Clintonization of his administration with Hillary as his secratary of state tells us what Obama plans to do; it tells us he plans to return to the failed appeasement polices of the Clinton era on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

If the Gaza War is still raging when Obama takes office he will surely pressure Israel into accepting a cease fire and like Clinton play the ridiculous role of honest broker in the conflict; the role that turned Clinton into the arse of the world when the murdering, Jew hating Yassir Arafat-an evil twisted toxic leopard who never changed his spots-predictably kicked him in the groin, rejected his peace plan and started the second intefada which relentlessly continues today in the missile strikes from Gaza.

Obama's silence foreshadows the errant policies of a profoundly naive and foolish man who is about to attempt an impossible peace and relive the disasters of the past. As Dante said in the Inferno: "The hottest places of hell are reserved for those who are neutral in the war of good verses evil." In wanting to be neutral in the war between evil Palestinians who live and die for Israel's destruction and Israeli Jews who want reconciliation and peace Obama will bring hell upon himself and make the Middle East and the world a more deadly and dangerous place.





Tom - And What Did Clinton Do?
About protecting us from bin Laden and AQ, especially after learning of the organization following the first WTC attack?

You wrote: "Seems to me that our Prez did about as good on that as did the Packer defense this past season!"

And, Clinton played all of his seasons like the Detroit Lions.

Stone
I don't mind anyone messing with my politics or my religion (or lack thereof) or my beliefs.

But when you know that we have about 8 inches of snow on the ground and both my old Carrera 911 and my golf clubs are in storage it's totally uncalled for when you to mention your damn weather!

Good night.

Obama's Strategy With Hamas?
Hey, O, you want a successful, low-level policy regarding Hamas? Send in the Bloods and the Crips as delegates, which would also help increase employment here.

Arabs have been fighting with one another for over 1,000 years. The issue of "Israel", while dire to both sides, is not the real point. If all of the Jews abandoned Israel, would the "peaceful" Islamofacists love us? Would they disengage from their aim of turning England and the rest of the world, for that matter, into radical Islamic countries? When Bush leaves office, will they become more concilliatory? Please. Even Madonna, who hates Bush, has been targeted for decapitation by Islamofacists.

pEBOLA, if you want to be named "Worst President Evah", then open discussions with terrorists.

I don't think that most Americans were hoping that you would give creed, harbor and abeyance to terrorists. Also, "hope" and "change" do NOT exist in the many countries that believe they are still living in the 7th Century.

Mr. Hill: O's illegal auntie is no longer living in the Boston area. She fled to Ohio sometime ago. Presuambly, to vote in a swing state.

Mac
Maybe you circulated in a different time than I. After I retired I would do consulting assignments for my former company. We had factories all around the world and among the places I visited were England, Madrid, Budapest, Bogota, Sydney, Melbourne, Germany, Medellin, and probably some I can't recall. I worked closely with the locals and got to know them well enough to where they would be very open and honest with me. I've got lot's of good memories and stories.

But I sure never saw all the Islam stuff that you mention. Maybe in Yorkshire and around London I noticed it a little but it was certainly not an issue of the scope you mention.

And I would spend anywhere from 2 to 5 weeks on some of those assignments living right among the locals. Go figure. I hope that I'm not that blind if what you say is true!

tom, Mack
tom, nice to hear from you again. I've got to get fishing tackle together. The Redfish will be on the flats at sun-up. It's supposed to be about 80 degrees here tomorrow. Shorts and tee-shirt on the flats ahhhh.

Mack, good luck, you're gonna need it!


Mac
I'm not quite as afraid of the Arabs/Muslims as you seem to be. I have never gone to bed at night thinking "Gee, I'm worried about the Muslims taking over our nation or harming me or my family." Actually, I worry way more about a flat tire than any of that Muslim or terrorist crap.

I have only a few Jewish friends and only one Middle Eastern guy who is what he calls "a not very practicing Muslim." He lives in Canada and runs one of the NFL pools I'm in and he is funny as hell. Some of the stuff he posts on the message board would never be accepted here. Maybe if you knew more guys like him you wouldn't have that fear complex you seem to have.

Me...I tell my Jewish buddies all the time that they need to watch out since there was reason Jesus tossed the money changers (and who would that be) out of the Temple!

Besides, I say that if we had restricted them all to Israel we wouldn't now have things like Bernie Madoff and the Wall Street white shirts (also mostly of a certain ethnic origin) basically trashing our financial firms and banks.

They laugh but I catch quite a bit of grief for that one!

tom,
I'm sure I said that Bush kept us safe after 9/11.

Before 9/11...Packer defense.

However I'm sure that you are more easily confused in these later years.

Mac
And what the hell is the "link" that you keep yapping about? The number of the people killed by both Hamas and Israel is a matter of historical fact and (almost) anyone should be able to easily find that info.

Wait...let me look. Yep, here it is:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7165652.stm

Now unlike your gal pal Brigette, they don't have a dog in this fight or a reason to maybe lean one way or the other so I'm guessing we can believe them.

Tom...finally some sense.
Don't know whether you were playing devil's advocate or what your game is, anyway, yea the Israel thing is a mess for the U.S., I agree, Having said that, I can tell you this: I have travelled extensively while in the Military, including the Middle east and Europe.
Europe right now, especially France, Spain, The netherlands, Germany, even Britain are feeling the effects of a large influx of Muslims, many of whom are Fundamenatlists.

There have been riots, honor killings, violent episodes, whereby they assert their rights to Sharia courts and laws. Britain just agreed to a Sharia court. There are neighborhoods that the police or "outsiders"(Christians or jews) can not go for fear of attack.
Sort of an Islamic state within a state.

Israel is the proverbial canary in the mine for us. We have no choice but to support it.
I have seen the violent nature of radical Islam and Believe that it is quietly entrenching itself here(the evidence is legion).

There are cells here, no question. Our border patrol agents have recorded stopping Arab peoples crossing the border disguised as mexicans. They even learned to speak Spanish.

The country is becoming destabized via those porous borders and an estimated 20 million illegals already here. As we continue to lose our rights and destabalize furhter, it wil be ripe picking for Islamic terrorists. When our 2nd amendemnts rights are subverted, which gives the terrorists some pause, the jig will be up.

Stone
Nah, I hate those damn retirement places. Maybe when I get really, really, old.

The poker is at the local VFW.
The pool table is in my basement.
The golf is any course where the fools think they can play the best.


where jews belong
I recently heard michael "m-e-d 'V' as in victory e-d" medved state that his ancestors are from Poland! Not Israel, but Poland in Europe. Why, pray tell are there so many Polish and other slavic people living in the middle east when they are not native to that land? Stop this farce! The european is not the original jew, but a convert whose real identity lacks any of the characteristics associated with people in the bible, torah, or that area they claim as their holy land. The bible even states to this day (even after so much manipulation) that Jesus, a jew had skin like burnt brass and hair like sheeps wool. (Sheeps wool!?!) Isn't that a description of the nappy hair that most white americans abhor? The fact is that the bible was changed to reflect more european looking characters to entice whites to become christian. Because, after all no self respecting white would ever join a religion where a black jew was the savior. Heavens no!

Mac
You probably don't even realize that I totally agree with much of what you say. But here's the deal: Israel has brought most of this upon themselves by what they have often "had" to do over the past 50 years. I am certainly not the brightest guy on the planet but it would take a complete idiot to think that they were going to plop an entire "nation" right smack dab in the middle of a bunch of (mostly) religious fanatics back in 1948 and not have the exact mess that they do...unles it was handled comletely different. Actually, one wise old Zionist told them what would happen but they wouldn't listen. But that's another story.

Anyhow, after creating the mess called Israel the USA then felt (or were pressured by the money guys) we had to forever be their protector. That was where we messed up, along with it causing much of the hatred of the USA in the Arab/Muslim world. It was simply a dumb decision that has had no "payback" or advantage for us. It has gotten so bad that you cannot name a single national politician in our entire country who will ever say anything bad about Israel.

As for the casualties you mention, yes the Pals bring much of it upon themselves. But guess what...those women and kids still bleed.

It's like the old story about the hunter and ducks: The hunter may shoot in sport but the ducks die in earnest.

Poker, pool and golf?

What?

Do you live in a retirement community?

Tom...you are almost funny.
Brigitte Gabriel has an agenda, The video didn't have anything about Hamas cells within the U.S, now the the most recent site(though it lists dates, places and times of attacks) is a propaganda tool like Al-Jeezera? Wow, if this wasn't so serious I'd be laughing hysterically.
And you were insulted because I tagged you as a Liberal? Gee. Hey, I'm still waiting for those links that back up your "facts".

Stone
This is off subject but you did confuse me a tad when earlier you mentioned how President George 43 did such a great job of keeping us safe.

I'm wondering how you thought he did after he got that memo prior to 9/11 that was titled:

"bin-Laden determined to strike inside the USA"

and especially since inside it even mentioned that hi-jacked planes might be used.

Seems to me that our Prez did about as good on that as did the Packer defense this past season!

Hamas' terrible dilemma
Sure, Hamas was put in a terrible situation when Israel bowed to American and world pressure and vacated Gaza dragging its own recalcitrant settlers out kicking and screaming.

Hamas was now expected to start governing Palestinians, feeding them, providing clean water, building them hospitals on their own exclusive territory, all that boring stuff. If they did a good job, the West Bank was up for grabs too, making a pretty good size state after all the horse trading and land swaps for Israeli settlements was through.

All Hamas had to do was keep their finger off the trigger and put it on a shovel...

Naaawh! Tear down those Israeli built greenhouses that are in the way of our real business of raining death and demoralization on the Jews! Roll in the rockets as fast as Europe provides us with the money to buy them!

Don't look at another Arab government failing its people. Look over there! It's a Jew! Getting advice from an American! They are the root of all our problems! Fire away!

Whew! That was a close one. We almost had to govern our own state...


Tom..No I have been clear.
Again you miss the point. Radical islamists from the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah...have been attacking Israel since it's inception.
Suicide bombers walking into shops killing innocents, inccessant rocket attacks, this has been going on for decades.

Each time Israel makes a gesture of peace by giving back land that was won in the six day war or the 1973 war(where Israel was attacked Aircraft, artllery etc.) they are immediately
shown gratitude by being attacked from that land.

The reference and relevance of Radical Islam to all of this is that in the eyes of those groups, all which share a common purpose: Israel and the U.S are targeted for eventual destruction. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and an ally. If it is destroyed and becomes an Islamist state, the destabalization of the world and the U.S will not be far behind.

You seem to be stuck on trying to make a moral equivelance argument between numbers of dead, thereby missing the bigger picture.
No one wants innocent people to die. Israel actually(as does the U.S.)takes every precaution to avoid innocent deaths.

That however is difficult when the enemy(which we learned in Iraq)hides amongst the civilian population, and many of the "civilian" population are actually part of the movement.

Islamists will fire rockets from a school knowing that a response will endanger innocent children. Guess what, they don't care. It is then a good propaganda tool for them in the media.

Stone Rock
Hey, au contraire on that "old" stuff. I prefer to refer to it as "experience" young man!

Besides, I can still beat the hell out of most of you "kids" at poker, pool, and golf!

Plus I've probably been to more foreign nations...back when I was young.

Mac
Do you even realize what you are following? That website is about as honest as al-jazeera or whatever the hell is the name of that Arab media outfit. They make a living by pandering to the fears of people who are easily misled or very afraid. It's a common trick that was explained by Goebbels at the Nuremburg trials after WW Two.

First of all, you exagerrated (13,500) their exagerration (12,750) by quite a bit. But please just use your damn brain for a moment. Do you honestly think that there have been 5 or 6 terrorist attacks every day over the past 7 years?

My God...do you also see bogeymen in your closet at night!!




U.S.A. is a terrible place.....
Which is why so many of it's citizens are trying to escape to another country.

We need to secure our borders before our population is so small that everyone has to produce something for a living instead of letting others support them.

Hey tom,
aren't you a little old for this?

It seems this may be a younger mans game.

No Tom, context again is everything.
This is war. Not a neighborhood shooting. In war when a sovereign nation/state is attacked it has the right to respond with enough force to destroy the threat(Hamas). Sadly, innocent people die in wars. Remember WWII, Korea, Viet Nam? Innocent peole died.

The Islamic threat to Israel which consists of Hamas on it's Border(Gaza), which by the way, Israel gave up(against the better judgement of rational thinking people)as gesture of peace, only to be attacked from that same land.

See Tom, Hamas, Hezbollah(in Lebanon), Al-Qaeda...all have in their charters a common thread: The destruction of Israel.

So in your opinion, should Israel just wait until it is obliterated? Iran comes into the picture as it supports those Islamists and when it is Nuke ready, Amadinejad has already publicly stated that he would annhilate Israel.

Just wait I guess, hu Tom. I can tell you this: If someone tells me that they are going to kill my family, I will take them seriously and take preemptive action.
I'm guessing you would wait and explain it all away. Right? At leat until you could research it all with information of your choosing.

Mac
You are the one who is using semantics and evasion...bringing Saddam Hussein and the evils of Islam and the great threat to our nation...none of which are relevent to what we are talking about.

I simply stated that while both parties have plenty of guilt in this Gaza mess that per the numbers of casualties Israel is certainly over-reacting by dropping hundreds of tons of bombs on Gaza and then a massive land invasion of a basically defenseless people because of 5 or 7 Israeli deaths by Hamas rockets over a relatively long period of time.

If you doubt that Israel went to over-kill consider that Israel killed almost as many of it's own soldiers as did Hamas!

Tom, I'm Starting to Wonder...
if you read anything that I posit here. You selectvely leave out, claim that you watched a video(but couldn't have), continue to ask for sources which I have already provided....
Anyway, here we go again. Here is a site with the numbers you ask for. Copy and paste onto google or your web browser and scroll down all the way. It lists attacks by Radical islamists by Date, Place etc. I am sure you will say it wasn't there, or it is just made up, but what the heck:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

I call em as I see em Tom.

Mac
So you are now saying that if there is a dispute and one side kills 3 innocent people and the other side kills hundreds it makes no difference?

You must be a fond admirer of Joseph Stalin. His famous quote when told that one of his "cleansing" campaigns could cause hundreds of thousands of deaths was: "One death is a tragedy...a million deaths is a statistic."

Tom...are you serious?
You couldn't have watched the video at the Heritage foundation all the way through. I just watched it again and Brigitte absolutely lays out the info on Hamas cells within forty states.

As far as numbers: I made my point, apparently you chose to ignore it(that seems to be your MO). I will repeat what I said before: whether the numbers killed on either side are correct is irrelevant to the main point. This isn't a numbers game. In an attack we don't say: hey, they killed one of ours(or tried) so we can only kill one of theirs. That is ludicrous and is certainly not followed by Hamas who kill as many as possible for maximum effect.

Israel had every right to respond after they were incessantly bombarded with rockets for months during an agreed upon cease fire, which Hamas violated. If more Palestinians are killed it is because Hamas, whom they elected, initiated it and hide amongst the general population(a known Islamist tactic)and then use the deaths which they caused as a propaganda tool.

Your semantics and diversion from the real point, that Hamas wants Isreal destroyed, shows me where you are coming from.

I am still waiting for that link backing up your assertions. You criticized mine, yet you offer nothing but your own words.

Mac
You bray about sources and yet you provide none when you blurt that there were 13,500 terrorist attacks since 9/11.

That is a totally absurd number, but by now you probably realize that...I would hope.

In 2008 there were less than 300 reported terrorist attacks that were considered serious per deaths or injuries.

Mac
Why do you immediately resort to the "slippery liberal" type BS in a discussion? Am I supposed to in turn call you an Israel loving scumbag who denies the facts at the expense of your own nation?

I was hoping that you might be an adult and not go down that route.

Mac
So do you doubt the numbers per the deaths caused by both Hamas and Israel or do you go with your other statement that the numbers of deaths are "out of context" and don't count?

I'm not exactly sure which way you want to go since you bounce around quite a bit.

Mac
Do you realize that we are talking about your statement that Hamas has cells in "every" large American city? I am beginning to doubt your command of your train of thought. Did you even watch that entire video?

Your great source Brigette did not even mention anything about any Hamas cells in the USA.

And that would be reasonable since what you said is not a fact.


Tom;;;
My story about Saddam was just an aside while relaying my personal experiences with Muslim intolerance and law. Like every slippery liberal you focus on the one item, ignoring the rest. Good diversionary tactic. Again...I am still waitng for a link to your sources.
Or is your word suppoesed to be gospel?

Tom....What have you provided?
You speak as though your word is absolute fact, yet you have not provided YOUR sources of information, or a link(as I have).
Curious to see how much more reputable they are than mine.
So I guess any info that doesn't agree with your opinion is just some biased web site with an agenda? OK. No sense continuing the converstion. It's a dead end street.

Believe it or not statistics can be verified. That is what the sites offer. Do the leg work, or maybe you don't want to challenge your pre-determined conclusions.

Mac
You are now grasping at straws. What in the world does Saddam Hussein have to do with what we are talking about...or did you forget?

Bringing up Saddam would be like a Palestinian supporter bringing up to you what Israel did in Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon in 1982. Was it evil? Yes. But it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

If this is over your head please advise.

Tom...again
Click on to the attachment, scroll down to the video at the Hertitage Foundation and watch the entire video. If you don't accept that, you can go to the other sites I listed. All assert that there are terrorist cells within the U.S. Is it your assertion that Brigitte is just making this up? If so why?

U.S intelligence services track cells within the U.S. but it is classified info. So we must find other sources.
Here in NJ we just had members of an Islamic cell tried for a plot to set off an explosion and Kill soldiers in Fort Dix. They were found guilty. Wake up my friend. Split hairs if you must.



http://www.actforamerica.org/index.php/learn/multimedia/vid eo

Mac

Please do not try to be clever and change the subject with strawman statements or by listing biased web sites. Any high school kid can do that.

I provided you with nothing but numbers and facts and you want to change the subject by listing sites that tell how evil is Islam. I do not need that. I think that Islam is evil and even more harmful than most organized religions. This does not require a philosophical blah blah blah on that subject.

I simply listed some figures that are historically and factually correct per the deaths caused in 2007 by Israel and Hamas. If you cannot respond simply say so and we can move on.

You seem to have an agenda but are befuddled by the actual events and facts since they do not fit your agenda.

Tom: What is YOUR source?
What exactly is Brigitte's agenda, in your opinion? Secondly, I do not base any of my observations on a single source. I have provided you with sources to check but it seems as though you are the one with an agenda, or bias, as you just explain away or ignore what I have offered. I can tell you this: Saddam Hussein murdered over 400,000 people as per statements from some of his own captured forces while I was there. They were scared to death and didn't want to fight.
When they surrendered they couldn't believe that we treated them so well. They were more concerned with what Saddam would do to them for giving up. Wake up Tom, you are living in a vacuum of sorts.

Mac
Please list any source or articles that ever said that Hamas had cells in the USA?

Not a whole bunch, maybe just 4 or 5. Or one.

Tom, are you that naive?
Look, I have nothing agianst peaceful people of any religion. I am a Christian and beleieve in the golden rule. Having said that, I also have some experience having been in the first Gulph war and some time in Saudi Arabia, with the intolerance and barbarous laws of Islamic states.

I have since 911 read and studied everything about Islam I could get my hands on, including the Quran and Hadith. The truth is clear tot hose willing to see it. The Quran explicitely directs the actions of those radicals. I also search various related web sites for information.

I must ask: Where do you get yours? I have yet to see you back any of your assertions up with facts.
Go to the following site:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

scroll down the page and read the Statisticsal facts of radical islamism.

Another infromative site:

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com

Mac
Why do you not forget Brigette for a moment. She is doing nothing more than stating her opinion and she certainly does have an agenda.

Instead, why not address the factual numbers as reported by that Israeli organization per the actual deaths caused by both Israel and Hamas in 2008?


Ronald
"deal with the facts.", " the evening muzzein call to prayer was the sweetest sound he had ever heard or words to that effect."

And George Bush? Did he not hold the hand of the King of Saudi Arabia at his ranch in Crawford, Texas shortly after 911. Can you name the country that is the largest fundraiser of Islamic extremists?

Ronald
Thanks much for the offered info but I have no plans to visit any mosques in Israel.

I was simply pointing out that Mac's statement that Hamas had cells in "every large American city" is total and complete nonesense.


LC moves to Texas?
Your following quote, "George Bush will be recognized as one of this country's greatest (president's)" just won you a Ginsu box cutter set from Osama himself.

Bush. Played. Sorry. Fact.

Tom...It is clear that either...
you lack context in your assesment, or you are biased to the truth.
I provided you with a site whereby Brigitte Gabriel relays her anecdotal experiences as both a Christian in Lebanon and a Middle East news reporter. She has nothing to gain(in fact has a fattwah against her...death threat)only the desire to let America know what to expect if we remain oblivious to the onslaught of Radical Islam.

You are trying to make a moral equivelance between numbers of Palestinians killed vs. Israelis. That my friend is in context an irrelevant point.
The fact is that the Palestinian Hamas initiated rocket attacks attempting to kill(as many as possible) innocent Israelis during an agreed upon cease fire.

The Isrtaelis, unlike the Palestinians, prepare themselves and protect the population through strategic placement of shelters and alarms. Palestinians on the other hand use deaths for propaganda purposes.

In context: If someone attacks my peoperty, sending rockets into my side of the fence, I will respond with all the force at my disposal to end the threat. I am not taking count.

Mac
You also said:

"Since 911 there have been 13,500 terrorist attacks world wide unrelated to anythignthe U.S or Israel have done."

Where do you come up with these cockamamie numbers?

According to all credible sources that reported on "terorrist acts and failed attempts that can be considered non-state terrorism in 2008" there were approximately 271 terrorist attacks in 2008.

Of these, 69 had no reported deaths but were listed because of significant injuries. Also, the single place with the largest number of attacks was Iraq.



tom in WI
The references Mac and I have posted and cited are intended to help you inform yourself. Hamas by Matthew Levitt could be most helpful to you. Also you can Google many websites showing locations and identifications of Muslim groups, organizations, mosques, societies, and even unclassified information on suspected or actual terrorist cells in the U.S.
I have been told by Muslim friends near my hometown to avoid a particular mosque near here, as a matter of fact.
The information is information you may need. Take it or leave it; your choice.
Thank you for this opportunity to share with you.

Tom: Watch the video on Brigitte's site.
The one at the Heritage Foundation. Halfway through she extrapalates on the Hamas cells within the U.S. According to her there are more Hamas cells than any other Islamic group, including Al-Qaeda, which is the second largest presence here.
In forty states within the U.S.
Now unless you have information that contradicts that, I take her at her word.
This woman has sources and allies that would be privy to that information.
You my friend do not.

zapdoodat in MA
Please, zapdoodat, do not project your anger, hatred and possibly fear onto me. Eschew ad hominem attacks; deal with the facts, truth, real history and issues. Read in context. Perhaps you do not know Hamtramck, MI passed a city ordinance some years ago approving the 5x daily muzzein calls to prayer. Obama said in at least one of his books – Dreams From My Father, I believe, but it may have been The Audacity of Hope – the evening muzzein call to prayer was the sweetest sound he had ever heard or words to that effect. You can read the books or Google on both those matters – what Obama said and the Hamtramck ordinance. I was and still am all for it, along with ringing of church bells, sounding of the Shofar and any, all other calls of any and all religions in Hamtramck, MI, the whole state, the entire U.S. and over all the world as reminders that there is a God and those who are religious people.
This is the U.S.A. you know, and we do have Constitutionally-guaranteed freedom of religion, including individually no religion at all. We are not to attempt to impose our wills and beliefs or unbelief on others.

Mac
Not sure what Brigitte Gabriel or Glen Beck or anyone else might have to do with it.

You said that Hamas has cells in every large American city and that is total nonesense.

You seem to not even be aware of the history of Hamas.




Info on Islamists;
Both of these links are to MENUS OF LINKS
Save them till you have time for so many reads.

http://www.meforum.org/docs/cat/40

http://www.islamist-watch.org/docs/type/2

Mac
The Israeli group B'Tselem reports the following:

"Palestinians killed 13 Israelis in 2007 - seven of them civilians.

Of these, three died in a suicide attack in Eilat, two in Qassam rocket attacks on Sderot, and two were killed in the West Bank.

This is the lowest annual figure for Israeli deaths since 2000 and compares to 17 Israeli civilians killed in 2006.

Six Israeli soldiers were killed in 2007 by Palestinians.

Also in 2007, Israeli forces killed 373 Palestinians - 290 in Gaza , 83 in the West Bank. (In 2006 657 Palestinians were killed)
53 of the Palestinians killed were minors

There was a deterioration in the general situation, notably Gaza's humanitarian crisis."

So, does this make Israel more of a terrorist group than the nut cases who run Hamas?


nomo
My personal religious beliefs are exactly that; PERSONAL.
They have no bearing whatever in this debate.

You can remain ignorant by choice if it pleases you to hide from truth.
I do understand how you Leftists are repelled by truth like Vampires are repelled by holy water.
Do you have some reason to side with Islamists?

Some humor for you;
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/3361

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2795

Mac in NJ
I am aware of what you say there about sad truth. I was responding to the posts of those who seem so unaware of the truth. Probably to the one who referred to times past under the British as if those times were past and the behaviors of peaceful living together no more.
I failed to mention also the time I was in Jordan, then Jerusalem when Ramadan and one of the highest Jewish Holy Days coincided. I have never seen so many people – Jews and Muslims together with their families, men, women, children, infants – celebrating not together but certainly all in the Holy City at one time in throngs, so crowded one could hardly move from place to place, and with no, zero, nada, zip incidents.
There are many more stories. One can only know truth about Israel by going there and staying there for awhile, getting to know many, diverse people. Demographics and other stats somehow fail to communicate the truth like seeing and hearing with one's own eyes and ears.

Tom, Try this site.
This is another of Brigitte Gabriels sites. You can watch her video interviews. perhaps you will gain a new understanding of the threat that we face. Just copy and paste.

http://www.actforamerica.org/index.php/learn/multimedia/vid eo

Some Helpful References
Hamas,Matthew Levitt; They Must Be Stopped, Brigitte Gabriel; The Truth About Mohammed, Robert Spencer; Why I Am Not A Muslim, Ibn Warraq; A Peace to End All Peace, David Fromkin; A History of Israel, John Bright; Israel and the Nations, F.F. Bruce; The World of Islam: Resources for Understanding [a CD, voluminous], Global Mapping International; and the Qur’an, of course – translations available online or free copies given at any of the 2000 or so mosques in the U.S.+Islamic societies and groups around the U.S.

Tom...
Not sure if you are familiar with Brigitte Gabriel. She has a web site to which I will include an attachment. She is a Lebonese immigrant who lived through the Israeli Muslim conflicts there. She was raised in a culture sympathetic to the Muslims and against Israel.

She was however a Christian and when the Israelis withdrew she witnessed the Muslims turn then on the Christians. Many of her relatives were killed. Her family went into hiding and her mother was severely injured in a bomb attack. She went to the border and Israeli troops took her mother(and her) to a hospital in Israel, saving her life.

She is now a staunch advocate against Islamism. Anyway, she had a recent interview on talk radio where she stated emphatically that Hamas has cells in every major city within the U.S. So your issue is with her.

She has written several erudite books regarding the Islamic threat to the U.S based on her knowledge as a former Middle East reporter.

http://blog.americancongressfortruth.com/

Islamic States not Tolerant...
Having been to the Middle East while in the military I can tell you emphatically that Islamic Nation/states are not tolerant of others religious belief.
Wearing an open crucifix or Christian croos, preaching from the bible to any Islamic citizen could result in arrest under Sharia.

female Military personnel must have their heads and legs covered while in the public square.
Christians and Jews, what few remain, are severely restricted as to their religious practices and services. They are forbidden from constructing, even remodling their churches or synogogues.


Robert Of TX @ 8:35 p.m. EST

The Liberal Mainstream Media (LMSM) continues their full time job running cover for Obama.

This includes an astounding, 80 per cent of major city newspapers.

CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC and ABC are a huge part of LMSM.
.............................................

WANT TO HEAR THE REAL KICKER?

The guy the LMSM wanted to win and the guy they helped win, is now in the White House. They're not about to investigate any story that might remove him. They only do that for Republican Presidents.





Ronald
"Do you enjoy hearing the muzzein – Muslim calls to prayer, say in Hamtramck, as much as Obama did in Indonesia?"

You call yourself a missionary, but you are a gossiper, liar and a disgrace to everything that Jesus stood for.

A Story Worth Knowing
Those of you who take the position that Israel is none of our business remind me of the story about Germany in the 1930s leading to the outbreak of WWII. It goes something like this: When the Germans came for the Jews it was none of my business. When they came for the cripples, the gypsies and others it was none of my business? When they took the guns from those who were armed it was none of my business. When they came for me there was no one left to help me, armed or unarmed.

charley in CO
You sound quite unhinged. I will join you but only with watchful eyes on you and keen ears listening for you anytime I cannot see you.
I prefer you join me in Israel on my next visit there this coming year – the 8th rather long-term visit since ’04. I believe it will be good for you to see Israel, including the Palestinian Authority-controlled areas, visit in the part of Jordan that the Jordanians call the Holy Land of Jordan, to learn more about humankind, judgment and liberty.
Will you join me?

joedoke, opine
You have very eccentric, irrational, judgmental thoughts. One can only wonder where/how you became what you seem to be. No offense to other Christians, however, I am very curious as to your religious beliefs.

Mac
It's true that Hamas is a terrorist organization but you seem to be confused about Hamas.

You say that Hamas has "...cells within every major city of the U.S."

Per every report about Hamas and it's objectives and methods from every credible intelligence organization...you are simply incorrect.

Ronald, The sad truth is:
I am sure that you are doing good work and it is encouraging to see that there are those who can put their differences aside. The problem however is not those good people of whom you speak but the 110 Million Islamists who see it as their duty to Forceably convert or kill those who do not accept their version of Islam.
That would include those good Muslims whom you have befriended. A paradox indeed.

Direct Quotes from the Quran:
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

The next time you hear an apoligist claim that Islam has been hijacked. You will know it is a lie. Their very "Holy book" directs their actions.


Amonk7 in CA
Israeli Jews, Judaists, Palestinians, Muslims and others in Israel who choose to do so live, work, play, go to school, go to each other’s weddings, even marry each other and have children together to this day.
I know what I am talking about based on 44 years of study and teaching, including at the graduate level, engaging with Muslims there and here, 7 visits to Israel, including the West Bank, Palestinian Authority-controlled areas, Jordan, Egypt and on the borders of Lebanon and Syria since ’04. I was there last year and spent much time with Arab Bedouin Muslims near Beersheba where rockets from Gaza impacted last week.
I plan to return this year for more than a month-long stay with the woman I married here in the States last year. Please join us if you wish.
I will take you to meet my Palestinian friends who live in East Jerusalem and work in Bethlehem, the Bedouin in Beersheba and elsewhere, the three dear friends who are a Palestinian Muslim, Jew and son of a “mixed marriage” with a Palestinian father and Jewish mother, a Palestinian husband/Jewish wife couple and their soon to be 4-year-old child, and my friends in Hebron - another Palestinian Authority-controlled area like Bethlehem, similar to East Jerusalem.
You can live with us as guests of a Palestinian Muslim and his family in an Israeli Jewish area and work with us doing archaeology with Israeli Jews, devout synagogue attenders and Palestinian Muslim students who attend the same university side-by-side.
Doing so might help you stop writing such rants “as you write [and] should [help you] get your facts straight lest you look like you don’t know what you are talking about.”

joedokes:
To be fair the Crusades were called as a defensive action only after Muslims had conquered and occupied previously Christian lands. That fact somehow always seems to be left out of the debate.

Islamists Police the Calssroom....
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2236

nomo brains,
these killers all profess to be devout followers of the religion of peace. Yet they have killed and will continue to kill millions to please the death cult that leads them to murder.

Exactly what does the religious beliefs of any american have to do with the death cult of the muslims.

Muslims have transferred their hatred of europeans for the crusades to americans who never existed as a country during those times. But then again muslims really don't need a reason to hate, they are taught that from birth.

If americans or the west shared the same disrepect for life that muslims had, there would be millions less muslims running around.

And still losers like you believe muslims can be civilized and stop their killing ways. That many of us on the right recognize muslims as killers and enemies of this country obviously upsets idiots like yoiu that need to blame america for everything wrong with the world. And like all leftists you are only happy seeing muslims as victims

fact:
Since 911 there have been 13,500 terrorist attacks world wide unrelated to anythignthe U.S or Israel have done.

Students at many of our Univeristies are being indoctrinated in to the cult of Islamism as these Universities accept millions of dollars from saudi Arabia to set up "Islamic studies" programs which deoict Islam in a peaceful light while convicting the U.S. and Israel as the impetus for the worlds problems.

A spokesperson for CAIR(Council for American Islamic Relations) stated in an interview that"Islam was not here to be an equal to other religions, but to be ther only religion".

http://apathetic-usa.com/

The Trojan Horse is within the gates.


djdacosta in NC
My apologies for putting you in the “Shames” post. You are not ignorant. You are right about the Israeli Jews and what they have done as opposed to what Hamas has done. Thank you for being one of those who deserve thanks.
Adding you to the "Kudos" post makes the balance even more lopsided against those who have earned shame.

nomo
The way you ally yourself with America's Islamist enemies I can understand why you would tremble in fear of any Patriot.

No one wishes you harm.
You can come out from under your bed now.

Lone in OH
Capturing or killing the king or his #2 went out as a method of winning war in ancient history and remains now as capturing the king only in the game of Chess. The world is in no game in the fight against Islamic jihadists brought by them to the world to take over the world for Allah, establish a worldwide caliphate with Shar’ia law and convert, subjugate or murder all unbelievers in Islam.

I doubt Vice President Dick Cheney plans a career in stand-up [comedy] although he did show great talent in the memorial dinner last year along with Obama as featured speakers.

joedokes, ronald, opine
Are you a Christian?



Nomo in WI
Terrorist or mass murderer McVeigh bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma on the anniversary of the destruction of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, TX, and murder by gunfire and setting the wooden buildings afire under siege of men, women and children. The siege was ordered by President Clinton and carried out by his Attorney General Janet Reno directing agents from several U.S. federal law enforcement agencies. David Koresh, Branch Davidian leader was suspected of having illegal, automatic rifles, thus the siege after agents were shot trying to arrest him at the compound rather than waiting to arrest him off the compound grounds.

Given the near 1400-year-old history of Islam and its clear aims to take over the world for Allah, a worldwide caliphate with Shar’ia law and the conversion, subjugation or murder of all unbelievers in Islam, the only way Obama or anyone else can end the terror war brought to the world by Islamic jihadists is to be defeated by or surrender to the Islamic jihadists.

nomo brains
what's wrong terrorist lover, the truth confuse you. But don't worry the country will soon be led by another who has written that in any conflict he will side with the muslims.

You and your new best pal the messiah can make the muslims and hamas feel like family.

But it takes a real loser, you know somebody like you, who defends killers as being worthwhile people. But then coming from socialist wisc comes as no surprise. You would rather give up any values than actually have to defend something. That you hate america comes far too easy to losers like you. Why else would you defend those who are seeking to destroy americ a and the west

to joedokes
Are you a Christian?

Bryce1 in MI
Facts: Since forcibly removing Israeli Jews from the Gaza Strip in 2005 as part of yet another failed land for peace deal Israel has provided all essential services, e.g., food, water, electricity, fuel for cooking and transportation, etc. Hamas and other Islamic jihadist terrorists started firing rockets into Israel then in 2005 and have continued near non-stop, even while Hezbollah fired some 4000 rockets for 34 days into Israel in 2006 indiscriminately murdering and wounding Israeli Jews, Palestinians, men, women of all ages, children and causing millions-billions of dollars in damage to civilian infrastructure, e.g. homes, hospitals, farms, forests, etc. Not one Hezbollah rocket provided by Iran and Syria hit anywhere near a military installation.
Israel refused to interrupt essential services to the Gaza Strip through all that until finally tiring of the 7000 rockets by now fired into such places as Sderot and Ashkelon-a port city-then more recently Ashdod and Beersheba after getting longer-range, improved, more destructive rockets, some manufactured in China and again provided by Iran.

Just as you have a right to self-defense Israel has a right to national defense like any other country. The Gaza Strip and West Bank are not countries. Palestinians refused to establish a country as provided for in UN Resolution 181 of 1947 to avoid recognizing the legitimacy of Israel as a State. Israel did establish Modern Israel in 1948, building on the remnant of Hebrews – Israelites, Jews – that had been in the Land before the exodus from slavery in Egypt, through the partial exiles by Assyrians and Babylonians, Roman destruction and Diaspora from Ancient Israel.

to joedokes
?????? ?? ?????

william in CA
Bush was in office for exactly eight months when we were attacked on 9/11/01. As others have pointed out, that attack was in the planning stages for years. Unless you think Bin Laden is a prophet, he: 1) couldn't have possibly known that Bush was going to be elected when he started planning that attack; and, 2) couldn't have known how Bush was going to react. Maybe you are not old enough to remember that Bush ran on a "no more policing the world platform in 2000." He gave no indication in his campaigning that he would meddle in foreign affairs, in fact he criticized Clinton for going into Bosnia and Somalia.

I'm not a fan of Bush; he let conservatives like me down with his irresponsible fiscal policies. And I do blame him for surrounding himself with neo-cons who gave him bad advice on foreign policy. They are the ones that played him, taking advantage of the crisis of 9/11 to spread their religion of democracy via military force. Afghanistan was harboring Al-Queda, but thinking those people were going to hand over Bin Laden once we invaded was a pipe dream. And Iraq was ill-advised from the get go. It would have been better to spend the money and effort to close our borders and track down all the terror cells operating in this country.

nomo brains
what a loser you are. You are that pathetic that you think that all who don't share your love of killer muslims makes you afraid.

But never fear there are plenty of soldiers who will protect cowards like you when real threats occur.

But obviously the muslims you have met have totally sized you up for the fool you are. Lying to non believers is standard fare for them.

But who is doing the killing, who is sending the rockets against women and children, who is beheading their enemies, and who are the cowards who then hide amongst women and children is schools where they use schools as bases to fire off missles.

And then you complain that people who don't trust muslims are scary to you. You alas are a whiner who would readily offer up himself as a victim to killers rather than risk offending them.

But then again sizing you up as a fool seems to be something that anyone and everyone who meets you quickly does.

I am sure your muslim pals already know you are both a useful idiot, and an enabler who would rather defend killer muslims that defend your own country. Don't forget to carry your prayer rug, your robe and memorize allah akbar and your terrorist pals might only abuse you until they no longer need to use a loser like yoiu


Apologists for Terror
Having read many posts from leftists that excuse or ignore Hamas and other Islamic terrorist groups, I see the undercurrent of hatred for the USA.

The leftists who support Hamas and condemn Israel also hate the USA. Why?

Stupidity, ignorance, immaturity . . . I'll bet they don't know themselves.

LC,
I knew it – explains your love of W. I did forget to mention oil company exec and corporate lobbyist crowd.

Myopine Joedokes,
I actually find you both much more frightening than any Muslim I have known.
Are either of you Christian?

Islamist Groups Responsible for...
worldwide terror. There are numerous radical islamist groups, all with the same agenda: bringing down Israel and the West, thereby eliminating any barrier to their ultimate goal of bringing the world under islam's yoke.

Radical Immams make no secret of this. Any youtube search will make that clear.
Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas, are groups that we are familiar with, however there are many in the shadows, such as those who committed the atrocities in Mumbai.

Al-Shabaah(the youth)is a Somoli based group(the pirates of the gulf of Aiden). This group has attacked and kidnapped westerners and threatened international peace keepers.

Jaish-e-Mohammad and Hizbul Mujahideen of Pakistan/Kashmir: responsible for beheading Daniel pearl and attacks against India;s civilians and members of parliment.

Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islam: Out of Bagladesh, responsible for many bombings in that are and attempts to assassinate the country's Prime Minister.

There are Hamas and Al-Qaeda cells within every major city of the U.S.(Homeland security study)waiting for their orders.
Those who blame actions of the U.S or Israel on this resurrgence of Radical Islamists fail to see the big picture evidenced by their actions in many nation/states having no relation or ties to the U.S or Israel.

Re: Weird things in his closet!!!
Look, lets be frank, anyone who can resite the call to prayer in perfect Islam has got some really weird things he is hiding(Obamamarxist)!!
And once agian the gutless mainstream media will not say a word about this fact and other little things that this clown his hiding!!!

nomo
Explore this site at your leisure.
It might help adjust your attitude on Terrorists.
http://www.apathetic-usa.com


nomo brains
I don't know any child molestors either but I know they are a danger to society. Since I have yet to hear of any redeeeming qualities in muslims exactly why should I find them admirable.

Any group that prides itself in total ignorance and illiteracy as do the muslims presents a genuine threat to all as they fully believe it is their destiny to rule the world through the lawsd of sharia.

More books are published in any given year in spain than have been published in the muslim m/e in the past 1000 years.

But being a typical troll you assume that because I and my friends on the right don't trust any muslim or have any faith they will start acting in a civilized manner means hatred on our part.

I don't trust criminals or gang members or the dims running congress either but exazctly why would I want to know or associate with any muslim.

We already hear the hatred coming from killers in hamas, hezbollah and the idiot running iran. Exactly when have any of them talked of anything but killing all who they don't like.

But you have failed to make your case why we should not worry about killers from the middle east. At what point has any muslim condemned tyerroprism. And the media did show the loving muslims partying in dearborn after their fellow haters committed the 9/11 atrocities.

And polls tell us that fully 30% of muslims born in this country believ in their right to committ jihadwhich is how they describe their bloodlust and killing

And fools like you maintain there is nothing to fear.And that muslims represent no threat

Nomo
You're onto me.I was a Wall St. Banker. I then became a fortune 500 CEO. I tired of that and became a war profiteer. Now I am Barbara Bush.I am the proud wife of one President and proud mother of another President. You are just too smart NOMO!

Shames
Shame on you Bryce1 in MI, nomo in WI, Lone in OH, William in CA, djdacosta in NC, Ralph in FL-doltish as usual, amonk7 in CA-ditto, Taft in CA-ditto, websmith in CA, charley in CO. Notice what a minority you are, how much you ad hominem attack others here rather than deal with the issues in a logical, rational, unemotional way. Your ignorance, illiteracy, offensiveness even in language, and racist/anti-religious prejudice are ugly. You really do need remedial education in reading, writing, logic, reasoning, values, ethics and morality for starters. Then I suggest you study the Howard Stern, Zogby/Ziegler, Leno person in the street interviews, Dr. Lyle Rossiter’s book on Liberalism as a mental illness, other evidences, and the American Civics Literacy Test – take the test – and ponder for a long time how all that proof applies to you.
Bryce how are things in Michiganstan? Do you enjoy hearing the muzzein – Muslim calls to prayer, say in Hamtramck, as much as Obama did in Indonesia?

Kudos
Thank you joe dokes in AZ, Nancy in NC, Maria T in CA, Marcia in PA, RonC in AZ, Jan@Oasis in CA, Smurf in TX, Kermudjin in CO, Donald in TN, LC in MD, fishy in OH, MyOpine in CA, Retired Geek in VA, Floyd in ME, L.J. in KS, Barbara in AZ, DanNV in NV, mojobebop in NY, Irisheyes2C in AL, Tea Party in WI, Jerseyvet in NJ, JMO51 in NY, MIR in IL, Donald in TX, Mac in NJ, StoneRock1 in FL, John in MS, Marine’s Dad in UT, Who is John Galt? In NY.
It is encouraging to see so many people from so many places in the U.S. still have their heads screwed on straight, can read, write, reason logically and have some sense of values and moral perspective.
I am sharing your posts and this one with my friends in Israel – Israelis, Jews, Judaists, Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians, Christians, Druze, Baha’I and others – all those who live, work, play, go to school and exist in peace with others. I am confident they will be as encouraged as I am.
Jersey it took me two reads to get your joke, but I did. Humor in the face of such tragedy is a good thing to relieve the hurt we feel.
Disclaimer: If I have left some out it is because you posted after I read all 80 or so posts at the time of my reading, you were not on topic, or my eyes grew weary.



Future for Hamas, continuous killing
Israel is nothing more then a reason for Hamas to kill. Without Israel, Hamas would just find some other nation who needs wiping out also. Death and destruction is a way of life for Hamas. Some people have careers. Killing is the career of Hamas. Hamas will never be recognized as a legitimate government so what does Hamas do. They use the legitimacy of the International Red Cross and the United Nations to condemn Israel. This is the way Hamas uses their terrorist politics against nations who comes in with humanitarian aid to help them. No President this country will have ever have, will influence Hamas to a point where they will put the AK47 aside and pick up a pen. Hamas needs to be beaten into the ground to a point where even the civilians oppose any effort of Hamas to return to their killing ways. The civilians haven't reach that point yet, which is why they still support Hamas.

joedokes
I made no statement defending hamas or their actions. Your last reply was a little incoherent. From the gist of it, it is clear you hate all Muslims. I also am going to assume that you have never actually known one Muslim or their family.

I hope you are all talk. If not, you are as frightening as any terrorist.

Wait until hapless voters
find out what they are getting when they voted for the candidate who hoped things would change.

Just asking: why was Obama so anxious to visit the Middle East when he was going to be set up as the surprise guest at a rock concert, and we hear no plans for visits to the Middle East to hold his promised talks that would have ended all this madness? I guess it's because he's elected as he hoped, and all that will now change.

LC
Just curious: are you a Wall Street banker, fortune 500 CEO, war-profiteer, Barbara Bush???

nomo brains
how many firewnds or relatives have you lost who fought or possibly dies to protect america.

Muslims are proven killers who don't hesitate to kill any and all who stand in their way.


You never answered the question asking why you defend hamas who hav e murdered many times more palestineans than israelis. If this death cult that tells morons like you you they are a religion of peace can't stop killing their fellow muslims why shouldn't the rest of the world judge tham as cold blooded murderers

Better to assume all muslims are possible thrats than line up like you will, as a sheep being led to the slaughter because you deny that muslims are killers

William Ca.
William you have no point. NONE! He did not "PLAY" Bush. If Sept. 11th. had occurred on either Clinton's or Reagan's watch they would have responded.William Jefferson Clinton will go down in this country's history as one of the worst Presidentsever elected to the office.George Bush will be recognized as one of this country's greatest.What will Barry Dunham's legacy be?

It is too funny to me that you mask your syntax. William ,you must admit that, it is unusual,your syntax I mean. I think that you have a Koran on your little bedside table, not a bible.

joedokes
How many Muslims do you personally know?

Just for the record
Some leftist (doesn't matter who) types, "Every religion seems to have a fringe element of extreme fundamentalists who believe god is on their side and, therefore, they are justified in their terrorist’s acts. Imo, Timothy McVeigh was as evil as bin laden. Both perverting religion to somehow justify their evil deeds."

Both CNN and London's THE GUARDIAN -- neither of which are exactly right-wing, Bible-thumping Jesus-freak outlets -- have reported that McVeigh was agnostic.

Just for the record...

nomo brains
as others point out mcveigh was a mass murderer who used terrorist tactics tro kill innocents.

But equating mcveigh to muslims who preach hatred 24/7, teach their children to hate and later become terrorists who is successful at killing non-believers get their sexual fantasies fullfilled with the 70 or so promised virgins.

But since the muslims fully believe the messiah is one of them they are all assuming he will side with them anyhow.

Bush made the grave error of assuming muslims wanted to live in peace and once saddam was removed the iraqis would run their own country. Muslims have since proven time and again killing each other is more important that living in peace.

But the muslims are counting on losers like you who will asllah akbar in order to save their useless lives. Until they prove they can act in a civilized manner and in peace with their neighbors better to assume all muslims are either terrorists or their support group.

We already see how blood thirtsty these muslims are everyplace they infest a country. They have been killing each other for the past 1200 years. If they truly believed in peace why are sunnis and shia still actively killing each other off as well as those who try to stop them and bring peace to the region.

You alas are either too stupid to notice muslims killing muslims or else take sides with one group of killers and take personal delight in seeing your imagined enemies slaughtered

Austin Hill - 2
UN Resolution 181 of 1947 provided for both Palestinian and Israeli States. Israel established the State of Modern Israel (thus an Ancient State of Israel is a given). The Palestinians refused to establish a State under pressure from other Muslims to avoid recognizing the legitimacy of Israel. Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians have avowed, intended and tried to destroy Israel and murder all Jews since the founding of Islam let alone since 1948.
Obama has no moral clarity. It is “above [his] pay grade” as he said in the Saddleback Forum. He has offered only “hope for change,” and the ignorant have bought it.
God help us, the Israelis, Jews, Christians, Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians and all others.

Austin Hill - 1
Responding to your opening question, Islam was founded in jihad by an illiterate warrior, pedophile self-proclaimed prophet in the 7th C., long before the U.S. A. existed. Islam expanded by conquest, has been beaten back in its near 1400-year history and resurged in the 1970s – 30 or so years, 6 Presidencies ago, long before GWB became President.
Islam has expanded further around the world and is closer to its aims than ever before it its history. GHW and GWB are the only Presidents who have done anything effective to stop Islamic jihadists in their aims to take over the world for Allah – a worldwide caliphate of Shar’ia law – and to convert, subjugate or murder all unbelievers in Islam.
Obama is inexperienced, naïve and at best Muslim, Socialist, Communist, Black Separatist-influenced, the latter at least by his own admission in his books and through the close associates and co-workers he has chosen throughout his “exotic background” as he explained his life in The Audacity of Hope, p. 120. Israel’s current national defense against attacks by Islamic jihadists may be the test of which Biden spoke in which it would appear he and Obama were handling it wrong.
Your callers were not reasoning, thinking or using logic but rather asserting and emoting sympathy based on false assumptions in their ignorance and parroting Arab, Muslim, Palestinian propaganda. They are dupes of the propaganda and Obama. Proof: the Howard Stern, Zogby/Ziegler, Leno person on the street interviews, American Civics Literacy test scores, Dr. Lyle Rossiter’s book about Liberalism as a mental illness, and more such evidence.
I don’t know about most Americans but way too many do not find the behaviors you cite abhorrent; rather they excuse and blame others for the behaviors. They have learned to do so in 40 years – a generation – of dumbing down in U.S. schools and in our media, dominated by Liberals.



Imagine This Scenario
You do not like your neighbor and your neighbor dislikes you as well. The two of you talk and decide to put your differences on the back burner so that you each may live in peace. Then you come home from work some evening to the sound of gunfire coming from your neighbor's property. In disbelief you discover he has broken the verbal truce and killed your spouse, children and the family pet. Will you go in the house, grab a bite to eat and turn on the "tube" to watch the evening news? Or will you retaliate? DO THE MATH!!!

Maria T
You just don't get it. The Israelis with American support have blockaded Gaza, preventing the movement of people, the importation of essentials like food, medicines, and yes, water. Their strategy in fact has been to place a strangle hold on Gaza is the 'hope' that the citizens would turn on Hamas.


To amonk #51 - from Reply #64

If Palestinians had any intention of showing the world what they could do with their returned land and self-determination they could have set an example. How exactly were the Jews preventing Palestinians from getting WATER if they put any effort into doing so? The source is the same for both arabs and Jews. Did Israel turn off the spigots as well as the palestinians desire to procure what was needed for their needs? Why should Israel be blamed for their lack of resourcefulness, ambition, intelligence, etc.? Where have their 'brother arabs' been? With the enormous wealth they have accumulated by squeezing the West with their oil, wouldn't it make sense that they should be the ones rushing to their aid? What do you have to say about the arab's 'HEINOUS DISREGARD as well as heinous neglect of their own brethren?
Oh, yeah, they are too busy creating luxury hotels and malls in man made islands, trying to imitate the 'decadent Westerners' lifestyle' to care for any other self-destruction motivated brutes.

Palestinians are responsible for their own 'dignity' they could have made their land shine by making something out of the terrain and buildings they got back. Instead, they turned the place back into rubble. They obviously enjoy living in a pock marked, stone-age-like environment that reminds them of their nomadic, bedouin origins; or at least of the 7th C in which their 'prophet' created the fable of islam, by taking the most simplistic elements of Christianity.

**The documentation from our own 911 Report is on YouTube. Search 911 and Israel.**

And we all know that in YouTube one can find the fount of ALL that is true and unbiased.

joedokes said
point out terrorists acts being committed by any group other than muslims.
**********************************************
***********************************************
I already mentioned McVeigh. Had he not been caught, I suspect you and your ilk would have made Muslims the scapegoat there. janoasis prefers to call him a mass murderer, which is also appropriate. Mass murder is terrifying so I submit that he was also a terrorist. The anthrax attacks were also quite terrifying.

Whether it comes from Islamic suicidal maniacs or USA-made bombs: War is terror. War/Terror feeds on hate. By escalating the attacks, the Israelis are creating more hate. You cannot kill this beast by feeding it more.

How sad that you both seem to hate an entire group of people simply because their religious beliefs are not the same as yours. I am assuming you are both good Christians.

Obama must end the war on terror. This is the only way to create a lasting peace.

9 days

Hamas
These pepole brought it on themselves to invading Isreal. They started sending missles into Isreal and Isreal did nothing until they wre pushed and they fought back. Hamas has refused to go to Peace talk what Rice engineered and said they will keep fighting. In Gasa there are terriots bend on destroying America and Isreal is doing our fighting. They are a wonderful Nation and we should be proud of them. If the people of Gasa have not schools or food or health then they need to kick out Hama from Gaza. We do not deal with terriots

BUT,...Dick isn't DONE !!


CNN's Wolf Blitzer asked why President Bush had been unable to "capture or kill bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahiri, the No. 2 al Qaeda leader," and the vice-dick replied:

"Well, we've got a few days left yet, Wolf."

--
He also said in reply to question

... BLITZER: "So when you launched the war against Saddam Hussein, did you know then that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11?"

CHENEY, DICK: "We did not base going after Saddam Hussein on any connection with 9/11" (????)


======================================


"The Dick" starts his stand-up career in Vegas the last weekend in January.


Hamas equals terrorism
I don't want to release the pressure on Hamas just because they are getting whipped. I want the Hamas to get whipped, killed, and put out of business for Israel's sake, for Palestine's sake, and for America's sake. Political correctness just cracks me up. If Israel is getting hit with hundreds of missiles, nothing is said. If Hamas get payback, the world cries giant crocodile tears and moans like an old whore.

Yes LC - and, well, Smurf...
Of course Bin Laden hates America, LC. But of the Presidents you mention, he only "played" Bush.

That is my point.

As for Smurf. Good news. Bush is coming back to Texas. Keep him.

Old Social Worker
I will vote for you if you ever run for President.

Old Social Worker
I will vote for you if you ever run for President.

Nomo: nobrain
If I see one more nudnik call McVeigh a "terrorist," I think I shall surely scream. He was a--altogether now--MASS MURDERER. Got it? The only terrorists in the world right now are MUSLIM terrorists. It is their creed, their heart's desire, their entire code of conduct, and they do it to their own as well as to anyone else they decide they hate. Actually, they hate everyone, including women and children. Their culture is PSYCHOTIC. Israel needs to take them out, and I hope it has the will and the means (well, they HAVE the means) to do it. NOMO, just shut it. Seriously.

Bush is responsible
For a couple years this thread has been alive with the postings of left wingers who hold Bush and the GOP responsible for the mess we are in. Fair enough. He's in the WH, they had control. But they can't seem to get that the conservatives here mostly agree. But for different reasons. The left blames Bush and conservative policies. The right blames Bush for deserting conservative policies and going left wing lite. Now comes Obama. The left eagerly looks forward to good govt which solves the problems. Conservatives see Obama as the very embodiment of the tax and spend policies which got us here. Stimulus package means pork package, more debt, progress strangled by govt attempts to make savvy economic moves. Bush was wrong to increase entitlements, wrong to passively sign pork laden spending bills, wrong to expand Federal participation in the education system, and wrong to ignore enforcement of immigration laws. It was and is, pointless to make the point that the Democrats would do more of these things and invent new ones. But now comes Obama, the nee plus ultra of the policies that Bush tinkered with. Now we'll see how they work. My money is on NOT, and that is literal.

nomo brains
point out terrorists acts being committed by any group other than muslims.

To repeat losers like you enable terrorism by denying what the muslims do and justifying their killing others.

But the undeniable point remains muslims remain the greatest threat to other muslims. Saddam and iran killed millions during therir 8 year war and other countless victims who simply presented a threat to the killers in charge.

But which are you, another muslim enabler or a terrorist plant just waiting for your chance to kill so you can get to the perverted sexual paradise muslim killerts all dream of entering.

But then again, cursed by the name of the prophet and death merchant mohammed

william
you have perfect hine site.. if you had to make the decisions with the information "W" had, you likely would have sat with your head up your hinnie waiting for the next attack..

"W" will be remembered better after obama falls flat on his face by doing as you suggest...

ya cant kiss arce terrorist or havens for them.

ya, ur a winner...

Wow
The lack of material resources just means that Hamas doesn't have more sophisticated weapons with which to attack Israel. Also, given that their purpose is the destruction of Israel, I suspect that they can give up terrorism no more than Obama can disown his grandmother.

Interesting that information critical of Obama comes from England. We should get used to that, since our own press is too busy adoring him. I read an interesting piece from a British reporter who came to the U.S. and was amazed how biased we are. For example, he noted reporters here are selected (or rejected) to conduct interviews with celebrities, not a common practice across the pond.

Hamas
Do you think that anyone could do anything that would change the attitude of the radical Arabs in Gaza, i.e, Hamas?
Would the radical Islamists act differently if there was no Israel and no Jews left on planet Earth? Would they then stop attacks on the West and on the USA? I think that they would not.
Do I think rewarding Hamas for its behavior would change it? That would be putting a very heavy burden on hope.
The pain-pleasure program works on rats. Humans have a much bigger brain-maybe it would work on humans also.
Donald W. Bales

William Ca.
Re post #73 12:13 a.m.

Let us not give too much credit to the genius of Bin Laden in his hatred of Bush! The attack is known to have been at least 6 years in the planning. Hmmm..., could that mean that Bin Laden also hated Clinton? Oh wait! What if the attack was eight years in the planning? Could it mean that Bin Laden hated Bush, Clinton, AND Reagan?!

So...,William, doesn't that mean that Bin Laden just hates America?


To Retired Greek
I seem to recall an author who wrote something to the effect of, 'If political winds turn ugly, I will stand with the Muslims'. And if I'm not mistaken, this same author, stated that he thought, the most beautiful music was the Muslim call to prayer.
I'm sure I'm having difficulty remembering this authors name because the MSM never felt his books or statement regarding music was newsworthy.
Do you suppose this author knows the Koran by heart?
If only I could remember his name, I'm sure he must be someone important, oh but maybe not, because the MSM didn't bring his 'beliefs' to 'light'.

Retired Geek
They tend to create Muslem Ghettos;
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/3361

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2795

In Australia they have enforced Sharia law on Christians.
They gang rape Christian girls for not wearing head scarves and get off with a simple Government protest!

They pull a stunt like that here in America and the next windy night they can expect a group of outraged relatives to torch that entire ghetto!

Food, clothing & healthcare?
The callers question: “How would you like it if you were cut-off from the rest of the world, and barely had enough food to provide your children or had no access to education, or adequate clothing, or healthcare?”

Your answer: “I would not like it but I would still not choose to murder.”

Good answer! I wouldn't like it either. Only problem is the question and the answer indicates the general level of ignorance surrounding this issue.

I doubt Israel can or does do anything about educating the children in Gaza. That is left to Hamas who diligently educate the children of Gaza to hate the Jews (and all infidels; i.e., non muslims), kill them at every opportunity and reap the ultimate reward of martyrdom that results from blowing themselves up in the process. Death is the preferred state.

Then there is the widely ignored fact that the Jews, a civilized society, regularly supply the people of Gaza with food, clothing and healthcare, goods and services that Hamas makes absolutely no effort to provide. No, not the best possible situation but one Hamas has no intention of doing anything positive about.

It's a topsy turvy world and things ain't gonna get better until people become more skeptical of the illogical crap regularly doled out by conventional news sources in the guise of "intellectual thought."

The more convoluted, the more illogical, the more it flies in the face of common sense, the greater the level of applied intelligence. Anything so outrageously stupid from "the smartest people in the world" must be absolutely correct. How could it be otherwise? Wise up folks!

To TruLib in Va
You make an excellent and valid point which, unfortunately, highlights the fact that our Country (and thus, the American People) are NOT and haven't been, for quite some time, 'Independent'. Our Government has made America and We the People, 'Dependents' on foreign Energy, Commodities and Financial Loans.
The strength of our Dollar and Technology used to keep us 'independent' to a great extent, but those have been eroded. Were it not for our Military superiority ensuring our National Security, our Country would have already been 'taken over', if not by a foreign enemy, but by the UN and all its foreign enemies of the United States.
Now our Country has an incoming Administration which plans to castrate our Military, currently the only deterrent to the ideologies of destruction of Democracy and Western Societies.
If our Military allows this, then indeed, we will go down and lose everything, our Country, our Constitution, our Flag, our Rights and our Freedom to the 'Rule' of a 'Global' Dictatorship.
And who, might we suppose, will continue to campaign, backed by soros, to be the 'One' elevated to the 'highest paygrade' and 'office' of 'Global Ruler'?

Austin great article

Austin wrote: "...“In what sense does Hamas have a need to murder?”..."

Murder is the mothers milk of Islamic terror.

LC post 2@ 2:01

I agree 100%.

Israel is the victim
I am sick of the apologists for Hamas! I am sick of the vile propaganda that emanates from Palestine!

I want Israel to do what they need to do.

The appeasers at the U.N. and in the E.U. are calling for a ceasefire. What will a ceasefire and negotiations for peace accomplish? NOTHING!

Hamas's MISSION statement is to destroy Israel. You cannot negotiate with a group that has that as their goal.

Yes...,the Palestinian people are victims. In fact they are PROFESSIONAL victims.But not of Israel.

They are victims of their own EVIL leaders,starting with Yassar Arafat(The Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton of the Middle East), and culminating in present day Hamas!

Every American should be appalled at the Pro Hamas demonstrations taking place in this country!Every American should stand with Israel!

Islamic Rights for Women

The book of Allah says women are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to beat them (Q.4:34),

and that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q.66:10).

It says men have an advantage over women (Q.2:228).

It not only denies women equal right to their inheritance (Q.4:11-12),

it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their testimony alone is not admissible in court (Q.2:282).

This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness, which of course is a joke. Rapists don't rape in the presence of witnesses.

But the most shocking verse is where Allah allows Muslims to rape women captured in wars even if they are married before being captured (Q.4:24) (Q.4:3).

The holy prophet raped the prettiest women he captured in his raids on the same day he killed their husbands and loved ones.

This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and rape their women.

Pakistani soldiers raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 and massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic.

This is why the prison guards in the Islamic regime of Iran rape the women and then kill them after calling them apostates and the enemies of Allah.

Islamic Rape Rooms

Many Americans have heard about the 'Rape Rooms' in Iraq.

The details are to ghastly to describe here at TH, this is as graphic as allowed.

Women and girls, reportedly as young as 9 years old, were strapped down and repeatedly raped and tortured any way the 'Islamic Animals' desired, by as many 'Brutal Men' as available.

Many of their families were forced to watch.

When the 'Islamic Animals' had enough of the female, many were fed feet first into a wood chipper while they were still alive.

The next female victim and their families would be brought in.

This was Genocide of Iraqi females.

July 2007 "Presidential hopeful Barack Obama said the United States cannot use its military to solve humanitarian problems and that preventing a potential genocide in Iraq isn't a good enough reason to keep U.S. forces there."

Obama and his destruction will be remembered as 'Sacrifice for the Common Good'.

Islamist compassion for their Women

Honor Killings of females all over the world and happening now in America.

Islamists conduct most of these 'Honor Killings'.

Where they can conduct the 'Honor Killings' in public, the time honored way of these animals is to bury the female waist deep in a hole and then stone them to death.

Stoning to death is a slow, brutal, ghastly death.

These women and girls have committed such ghastly acts as not having meals served on time.

These women and girls have committed such ghastly acts as not wearing Burkhas or veiling their faces properly.

I worked for a while in an Islamic country where I saw women trying to eat ice cream cones with veils on, being careful not to show their face.

Street vendors work the streets with vegetables and so forth and women let down baskets to get their purchases, if no male is available to escort them to the street.

These women face 'stoning to death' if they do not use hand signals to indicate their purchase because they are not allowed to speak to any man who is not family.

We can expect more women in America to suffer 'Honor Killings'.



Reply to amonk #51
**Subject: America makes terrorists hate and kill**
- How many indoctrination, training camps, madrassas and religious leaders shouting from the pulpit "GO AND KILL THOSE MUSLIM INFIDELS" can you point to to prove the veracity of your statement?
No use in trotting out McVeigh -who did not act in the name of Christianity- nor and Arian Nation nuts who are in essence an irrelevant band of survivalist anarchists of no consequence.

**As to the first question: Does America make terrorists hate and kill? The answer is clearly yes.**
That answer as far as the leftwing-nuts is only clear to them. Since history has been at best distorted (by the very same people that brought about the defeat of US in Vietnam, then later took over or hijacked every level of the education system in this country), and at worst ignored or supressed by these same "teachers," the "America is an imperialist power and is responsible for every ill that has befallen every corner of the world" mantra has been drilled into every student. The product of their effort is precisely what brought about the success in the election of the most unqualified idiot to ever run for the presidency. Now this idiot will proceed to bring about useless 'negociation' with male supremacist BRUTES and RETROGRADES, living in the mire of a savage 7th C religious quasi-philosophy, bent on the destruction of democracy and the imposition of sharia law.

cont'd later

Hey Mickey (8:07am)
You ever notice no one ever "Monday Morning Quaterbacks" a win?

Think about it.

Israeli terrorists
How quickly we forget!

There was a time (1931-1948) when the "National Military Organization in the Land of Israel" also known as Irgun was condemned as a terrorist organization.

The same Irgun was the genesis of the Freedom Party which in turn led to today's Likud Party.

So the right-wing Likud Party of Binyamin Netanyahu and Menachem Begin has its roots in a terrorist organization!

This is the same Irgun that was roundly condemned by Nobel Laureate Albert Einstein and other prominent Jews back in 1948.

Here's what they said when Begin, a member of Irgun came visiting the United States:

"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties.

It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine ...

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States."

Letters to the Editor
New York Times
December 4, 1948

Ouch!


Why Is The ME So Important?
Oil! We dump huge amounts of money in that region buying energy from people that are culturally out of their minds. Spare me the religion of peace baloney. The reason we are stuck there is American energy policy which is to maximize dependence on people that hate us by limiting domestic production.

Our society runs on energy. We have incredibly huge amounts of it in a variety of forms. We should be putting all forms of it to work for us in the most economical manner. Competition in the free market should be the deciding factor not politics.

Government is in bed with those businesses that are capable of delivering the most votes. Iowa farmers are getting rich while the poor in third world countries are starving. Tax dollars subsidize ethanol that saves us no oil but drives up the cost of food. Then we put price supports in place to help guys making millions and pay others not to grow anything.

Government involvement in every aspect of our lives is making us all poorer and less free. We are idiots for letting this happen and have now put a guy in the White House that is promising to increase the reach of government. Unless we make drastic changes in our policy on energy production we will continue to be stuck screwing with those loons in the Middle East.

Every president since Nixon has promised to end our dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Every year the amount goes up. Think Obama will "change" that?


Obma's brother
If it is true that Osamo;er;I mean Obama,has a brother living in poverty in Africa,and I think it may be,then How come he don't bring him over here to live a better life? If I were in that situation I would . Or is it maybe true Obama is not a natual born citizen ,and he should be living in Africa to. There is something about Obama that strikes me that he is a phoney. I think this country is in for it.As for Israel,I think they should move into Gaza and take it over again ,and run the Humas jerks out of there,better yet kill them all. They would be doing the world a favor.

True, fishy in Ohio
Chaos leads to confusion, and confusion leads to fearful and easily controlled people who swiftly gallop toward the very policies and people practices that have weakened us over the past few decades . We have the perfect storm of uneducated academicians who marinate in inaccuracies and self-importance; simpering apologists who cannot critically think and identify absolute reality because it does not conform to what they want to believe; entertainers who confuse fame and fortune with intelligence; and addle-brained college agers who know a great deal about absolutely nothing other than their own ids.

I'm not optimistic, because we have been doing excatly what Obama thinks is new for many decades in a variety of systems, and we have chaos, expense, and abysmal results to show for it.

Excuse me Irisheyes
You say: “Israel and the Palestrians (sic) have despised and hated one another for centuries” That is simply not true. The Palestinian Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in relative peace in Palestine for centuries under Muslim rule. They went to each other’s weddings and shared harvest together. This peace was interrupted in the last century when the British started to promote a Zionist state on their shared homeland.

When you are going to write such a rant as you write you should at least get your facts straight lest you look like you don’t know what you are talking about.

Poor, poor abused Hamas, Boo Hoo!
Until so called gutless world leaders fully understand that all Hamas and other like minded murderous groups are capable of producing is death, destruction and male sperm by the gallon, world tensions will not improve. The only thing these murderous groups fully respect is sheer brute force that renders them dead, dead, dead. Poor, poor abused Hamas. Boo hoo. Here have another rocket so you can kill more innocents. There, feel better now? I thought so!

mojo said
...hamas, terrorists are a cancer that need to be destroyed. regardless of what the majority say. israel is acting properly.
*************************************************

the cancer is being fed by Israeli's killing of innocents.

Thanks Austin Hill.
Our little town newspaper showed one picture from Gaza of two dead men and a woman with her fist in the air "mourning" them. Sigh. What is wrong with this country and the media that try to show Hamas, the offenders, as some sort of victims?

The media world is upside down. I have no sympathy for the people who elected Hamas to govern them. What did they expect would happen to them and their children when the rockets kept firing? Are they idiots? I don't think so, because they are very shrewd in getting their "victimage" photographed and sent out around the world. They are worse than willful children, who expect a different outcome when they perpetrate evil. Evil exists and its name is Hamas.

I call a spade a spade, as Mr. Hill has done. Obama is a fool. Obama talk with Hamas? To whose end? I can never see the pebo in a postive light. He and his henchpeople have perpetrated the worst fakery of all time on the USA, and he did it with just 2 words. Shame on him, shame on his legion of lawyers, shame on the mainstream media traitors, and shame on those who voted for him.

The dumbing down of America has come to pass. And people who defend the evil that is Hamas are in the forefront of this defense, wearing their wussy vests.

I hope that Israel wipes out the leadership of Hamas once and for all!!!

Recalling the words of Biden
To paraphrase: Obama will face an international crisis and will require support because his response won't appear to be the right one. Biden was right, the crisis is upon him and his response has no connection with what is required to resolve it.

To this point, I have believed that the circle of advisors surrounding Obama might protect him from immediate failure. I no longer hold that view.

peace
Will not come until one side or the other is severly beaten and defeated.

israel
nomo
Location: WI
Reply # 2
Date: Jan 11, 2009 - 12:23 AM EST
The facts are
850 Palestinians killed and Israel is planning to escalate -- excuse me, who is showing bad behavior, i.e. war crimes here
--------------
hamas is. that is who. i'm certain if, for the past 2-3 years an ememy was lobbing missiles in your neighborhood, you would prefer the government respond in kind.
that is exactly what israel has gone through for the past few years.
hamas is doing this from civilized areas. what is israel expected to do?
they have shown amazing restraint.
hamas, terrorists are a cancer that need to be destroyed. regardless of what the majority say. israel is acting properly.


Anti-Semitic Tirades? No?
Give me a break, Israel and the Palestrians have despised and hated one another for centuries at issue currently is the Hamas leaders wanting to destroy all signs of life from the physical and spiritual of anything Israeli and/or Judaism. I guess the left wing numbnuts believe that it’s just fine because they generally despises all religions except the Muslim, which is only based on fear of becoming a human shield or a casualty of their hatred for everything outside the boundaries of Islamic law or the muslim religion. As they start to infiltrate the United States, as the Muslim come calling and remove your front door and are asking are you friend or foe?

I’m still awaiting their cries of anti-semitic rants that usually accompanies any verbal attacks on Judaism or Israel. I guess because their isn’t a conservative Christian to lambaste there’s no need to inject the anti-semitic rants. Their silence and sudden need to join in the attacks of the choirs Hamas outcry is disturbing and puzzling in the extreme. I’m starting to believe these left leaning zealots will join any cause so they can hear the sound of their own voices so they can get their screen time on the evening news.

The liberal way seems to always be “turn the other cheek” and forget what happened. What these numbnuts seem to forget are the opposition won’t ever stop or forget. The Hamas lobbed 200 missiles at Israel during this last ceasefire. Yet the moment Israel counteracted, their cries of foul, they broke the ceasefire treaty were heard, sometime worldwide. Are you so afraid to speak the truth and take your liberal blinders off? Whatever American policy we have, the left wing-nuts will automatically oppose. Every American will receive 1 million dollars from the US Government this year. I’m waiting…. Waiting… and waiting for your objections. No? Finally silence and who says there isn’t a God.


To OldSocialworker in NJ
Thank you for your post, its factual well-written comments. You stated (the fact) that criminals are still what they always have been and'emboldened' now with the 'upper' hand due to our court system. What better example of this is there, than the domestic terrorist, bill ayers, in his own words "Free as a bird". He (and his terrorist wife) was (were) never held accountable or suffered consequences for planning, bombing or killing. He is now a so called 'educator' of our children.
How many politicians and judges has our Country had in the last few decades? It boggles my mind that the majority of them don't have either a 'lick' of common sense or their one and only primary objective is so self-serving that common sense as well as our Constitution is of no use to them and is totally disregarded.
No bank or business has 'failed' to the extent our Government and Justice System has 'failed'.
And instead of 'bailing' them out of their positions of 'power', they continue to have the 'power' to keep on 'rewarding' themselves--with more 'power', our taxdollars and the ability to procreate like rabbits.
Our Government, our Justice System, our families, our schools our very Country, no longer have 'borders', 'limits' or 'discipline'; the main ingredients for 'crisis' and 'chaos'. And that's exactly what we are in today.
Now the incoming Administration has plans to castrate our Military making our National Security a vulnerable 'sitting duck', and they also plan a 'social' event with terrorists, whose 'purpose' in life is to kill us. It's as if our Country has been and will continue to be 'stoned'. What our Country needs is to immediately enter detox 'treatment' to recover and return to the sanity of reality.


Remember
what O said, he'd always side with the muslims.
Also, slipped about his 'religion' on Stephy Stenanopoulus's show and Stephy corrected him.
Old Social Worker wouldn't you call that a
Fruedian slip?
OSW, thank you for your analysis, you put in words what the rest of us sensed but weren't
able to articulate as you have with your first hand knowledge. As Biden said, Mark my words,
more people will die because this fool was elected, Americans, Israelis and other innocents. I'm sure our troops feel very secure with this narcissist nonentity as CIC.
God protect them (Psalm 91) and help U.S.


websmith
It is our business. The Israelis are using our bombs, against our policy, btw. And what goes on in Gaza, the you tube has shocking footage of civilians, children, dying and crying in great suffering, that its rocking the world.

Joedokes
Muslims are no more terrorists than Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. are. Muslims are people. They want peace as much as anyone. Your attempt to categorize them as evil is despicable. Every religion seems to have a fringe element of extreme fundamentalists who believe god is on their side and, therefore, they are justified in their terrorist’s acts. Imo, Timothy McVeigh was as evil as bin laden. Both perverting religion to somehow justify their evil deeds.

Marinedad,
Regarding Hamas: Israeli bombs and bullets killing Palestinian women and children are not weakening their cause. Aside from the humanitarian & war crime issues, Israel is making a huge mistake by escalating the attacks. Think about it – someone kills your wife and kid. How does that make you feel? Israel, with US approval, is only strengthening hamas’ hand by their actions.

joe

I didn't mean any slams to your state, if thats what set you off, Arizona is a really great state. I have one messiah and it isn't Obama.