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Sunday, June 01, 2008
Austin Hill :: Townhall.com Columnist
Governor Jindal, The "Christian Right," And The "Catholic Issue"
by Austin Hill
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Bobby Jindal may not yet be a household name across the entire United States. But hopefully that's about to change.

At age 36, Jindal is a former member of the United States House of Representatives; a former Secretary of the Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals, where he took the state agency from a $400 million deficit to a $200 million surplus without tax increases; and is now the current Republican Governor of Louisiana.

Governor Jindal made national news last week when he, along with Florida Governor Charlie Crist and former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney schmoozed at John McCain’s private residence in Arizona. The presumption at the time was that Mr. McCain had all three of these men under consideration as prospective Vice Presidential picks, and, while I’m not convinced that this is accurate, it did nonetheless garner Jindal a lot of attention.

But let‘s set aside the V.P speculation for a moment. Objectively, Governor Jindal has an impressive record as both a legislator and as a Governor; he is receiving very enthusiastic responses from both fiscal and social conservative leaders; and he looks more and more to be a part of the future of American political conservatism.

So what could possibly get in the way of Governor Jindal’s rise to national influence? Could it be the fact that he is a Catholic, and not an evangelical?

If the recent Republican presidential primary races demonstrated anything, they showed us that, among the religious social conservative movement (a movement mostly comprised of evangelical protestants), theological views and church affiliation trump just about everything else when it comes to selecting a political candidate.

Consider what happened, and didn’t happen, with the candidacy of Mitt Romney. The former Governor of Massachusetts was certainly something less than a perfect Republican presidential candidate, to be sure. Yet, much of the public dialog about the Romney candidacy was not about his gubernatorial track record, or about his policy positions, or about his impressive private sector business experience, but about his Mormonism.

Let me cite my graduate school alma mater as an example. Biola University is a distinctly evangelical liberal arts university in suburban Los Angeles, with a fully accredited graduate school of clinical psychology, and a graduate school of theology. Earlier this winter, the university’s impressive alumni magazine “Connections” published an article which was ostensibly about the prospect of Romney being elected President.

In reality, the article had very little if anything to say about Romney’s policy positions, or his qualifications to be President, or the American presidency, or about statesmanship. Instead, the article focused primarily on Mormonism. And ultimately, the article seemed to conclude that a vote for Romney would essentially amount to a vote for a false church (the Mormon church), and this would in turn result in growth of the Mormon church, which would in turn result in more “lost souls” (or as one quoted professor called it, “sheep stealing”).

I’m not suggesting that this one article, or its author, or the individuals quoted in the article, speak for all of evangelicalism, or for the entirety of Biola University and all of its alumni. Additionally, I am not making statements here about theology, nor am I arguing about Romney’s merits as a candidate.

My point here is that there is some number of American evangelicals who, while they may “lean Republican” in their voting habits, still can’t bring themselves to vote for a candidate that doesn’t share all or most of their theological views. Essentially, there is not consensus among American evangelicalism as to whether or not one can share a common worldview with a person or group that does not first share one’s theological views. This poses a serious problem for the Republican Party, and is bad news for American politics generally. Yet the problem seems to have been mostly misunderstood, or, if it is understood, mostly ignored.

But what does any of this have to do with Governor Jindal and his future on the national stage? Well, let’s start with the fact that Jindal is a Catholic.

To be sure, Catholics and evangelicals have plenty of common ground, both theologically and in terms of worldview, whereas Mormonism entails a dramatic divergence from historic Christian theology. Yet despite this fact, and the fact that there are lots of Catholics involved in socially conservative activism, there are still plenty of evangelicals in the pews whose opinions of Catholicism are not much better than their views of Mormonism.

Indeed, my alma mater’s alumni magazine recently published an article that was highly critical of the on-again-off-again “Evangelicals and Catholics Together” movement, which featured a theology professor whose objections to this effort of uniting evangelicals and Catholics are based on theological concerns.

My hope is that, as Americans, we all remain free to believe as we choose, but that our cultural values, and therefore our public policy views, can begin to transcend our theological differences. I’m also hoping that Governor Jindal will play a vital role in our nation’s future.

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About The Author
Austin Hill is a Talk Show Host At Boise, Idaho's 580 KIDO Radio, and a frequent Guest Host on the Fox Newstalk Radio Network. He is the Author of "White House Confidential: The Little Book Of Weird Presidential History," And Co-Author of the forthcoming title "The Virtues Of Capitalism: A Moral Case For Free Markets" (Northfield/Moody Press, 2010).
 
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Austin, not quite right about
"Mormonism entails a dramatic divergence from historic Christian theology". There are many who would say the divergence is from recent Christian theology not historic. The theology embraces 1st century Christian theology. It was the Niceaen Creed that diverged. But if you had actually gathered background info from real scholars of the LDS church, you would have known that. Instead you repeat the assertions of the staunch opponents of Mormonism. Close Austin, nice try--you fully understand the arguments of the opposition to Mormonism, and that they have nothing to do with politics, party philosophy, or moral values. But in the end you end up mischaracterizing the religion.

as an evangelical...
Neither I nor any of the circle of evangelicals I move in cared if Romney was a Mormon, Catholic or Baptist. We were concerned that he is not a reliable conservative. I ended up voting for Romney in the AL primary to try to stop McCain (fat lotta good that did).

I think southern evangelicals just liked Huckabee more than that plastic-hair slick NE politician, and it would have gone down exactly the same had Romney been episcopal.


I consider Catholic theology to be almost as different from mine as Mormon theology, but we are all allies politically.

Jindal really seems one of us, though - Catholic or not. I'd prefer he was more libertarian and less straight conservative, but if he keeps going the same way he's going now, I look forward to voting for him in a few years.

I heard an interview recently where he listed limiting spending as the #1 thing the GOP needed to do to win back their base. It's about time an elected Republican got that right.

If Jindal
can continue to solve problems in Louisiana, maybe enough of the voters will recognize political competence and give religious orientation second place as they vote. But identity voters are quite unsophisticated, and moreover tend to be lazy when it comes to examining a candidate's other attributes. Lazy simplistic voters can bring this country down if there are enough of them. Nothing like hard times to make people work and think.

A Sometimes Misunderstood Evangelical
As an Anglican priest who is an evangelical, I'm more than a little sympathetic to the challenge that you mention for Governor Jindal because I often face the same challenge -- being viewed with suspicion by many of my fellow evangelicals. When I was a Presbyterian (I was raised Presbyterian and was one through seminary) it was only slightly better.

Romney was my choice after Thompson dropped out despite severe differences with Mormonism. I am a huge fan of Bobby Jindal and think he'll be a great President one day. I'd rather not see him as the V.P. pick though -- better to build experience (he's still under 40).

Values, not theology
I'm an evangelical and I'd have no problem voting for Romney or Jindal. I think chris got it right when he attributed Romney's problem with evangelicals to his record on social issues - same reason Giuliani's candidacy tanked. That's one of the reasons Romney wasn't my first choice. But when it came down to McCain, Huckabee, and Romney, I supported Romney (by the time the PA primary came around and Romney was out, I wrote in my first choice: Duncan Hunter).

In politics, values matter much more than theology. Romney's Mormon theology is very different from mine, but his values appear to be the same (at least he's singing the right tune now). Ditto for Jindal.

Jesus used the example of the Good Samaritan to show that even people who had the "wrong" theology could be godlier towards others than those who were considered to have the "right" theology (perhaps a dig at the Pharisees). It is no more wrong to accept help from a non-believer when you're fighting to save your culture than it is to accept one's help if you're dying on the side of the road. To the objection that electing a Mormon POTUS could advance his theology, I'd say that Jesus wasn't worried about advancing the theology of the Samaritan by casting him as the hero of the parable. That's because He was promoting the Samaritan's values and actions, not his theology.

Finally, I just don't buy the argument that electing a Mormon would cause millions of Americans suddenly to see LDS in a whole new light. Did the Catholic Church see a spike in new members after JFK was elected? Quakers after Nixon's election? Show me some evidence to support your assertion.

Values and Issues
I agree with the seeming consensus here that it is NOT the man's religion that did him in but rather his record on the social issues. I really do not care what is religion is as long as he will be a good or better yet, great leader. I know many will disagree but even if his religion was Muslim and he or she had a love for the USA and the people in it and his or her values were the same as mine, I would vote for him or her!

John Kasich for Vice President

Kennedy broke the Catholic barrier. Jindal will simply be a real Catholic - what a relief. Jindal needs experience - so niot this go around.

How about John Kasich for Vice President.

If you think for a moment - he is the perfect candidate though if McCain doesn't give him the ability to work in his strengths he would be better off as Governor of Ohio.


The Mormon's contradiction
The strongest statement in any religious book, including Holy Scripture, specifying the constituency of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is in Chapter Mormon 7 verse 7 of the Book of Mormon!

Yet, Mormons do not recognize the Trinity and Christ's deity!

Mormon 7:7 in the Book of Mormon:

"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choir above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end."

Practicing Catholic?
Is Mr.Jindal a practicing Catholic? If so, he has my vote considering his other positions make good sense to me.

I will not vote for another Catholic But -- I do not care for any candidate who claims to be an adherent to a particular faith and in the next breath assures everybody that he will not let what ought to inform the core of his being affect his behaviour. This is a lot like saying *I am againt theft, but that will not stop me from sticking up gas stations.*

If Mr. Jindals faith informs his decisions and if he is not ashamed that they do so, I would be inclined to think that most people would respect him enough to vote for him simply because they are tired of duplicity.

A good campaign slogan would be What You See is What You Get. Would it not be great to have the would-be-Woodwards digging for dirt and duplicity in vain?

I don't think so
"My point here is that there is some number of American evangelicals who, while they may “lean Republican” in their voting habits, still can’t bring themselves to vote for a candidate that doesn’t share all or most of their theological views."

So, who would that be? McCain? How about Obama? I have to disagree with the premise here. There may be a significant number of nut jobs who think that the President should share their religeous views, but the vast majority want political leadership in Washington (not spiritual).

Jindal is the second coming of Reagan. He will drive the liberals more insane (as if that's possible) than they already are. They will have no answer to him. His rational, self-confident persona will overshadow any opponent.

Jindal Rising
I would hope that Gov. Jindal stays in Louisiana for a couple of terms and brings that state into a conservative 21st century. If he can clean up politics there then at least the possibility exists he could do the same thing on the national level.

As promising as he seems, the world of politics, and Louisiana politics in particular, tends to corrupt even the best of men. Better that he learn to manage the evil that will visit him at the state level before going to the big show. The potential within him is tremendous.

I was raised by evengelical
parents although I do not consider myself an evangelical. In fact, I am not even a very regular church goer being married to an atheist. However, I feel I can speak for my impression of their flexibility regarding those politicians not in agreement with them. They would be inflexible and that is how I grew up hearing this inflexibility regarding their judgement of all who did not share their beliefs. Their friends and church going acquaintances were of a similar mindset.

Romney and Mormonism
Romney's problem was more his liberal politics than his Mormonism. But I could not vote for a Mormon because one has to be non-discerning to be a member of that belief system, just as one would have to be non-discerning to be a Scientologist, another religous system that would disqualify someone for president in my book.

Contrary to Lori's assertion, Mormonism is not 1st Century Christianity and the Nicene Creed did sum up 1st Century Christianity accurately. As an ex-Mormon, I can speak with accuracy as to that belief system, and there is nothing Christian about it. Their Christ is not the same Christ as identified in the Bible, nor is their God the same God as identified in the Bible. Their God was once a man who worked his way to Godhood (meaning he had to at one time be a sinful person) and lives in space neat the star Kolob, and if a Mormon does all the right works he can be a god also. Their Christ was the result of sexual intercouse between their God and Mary, is one of three gods overseeing Earth, is a literal brother of Lucifer, etc. None of this is found in the Bible. Yet they prefer to believe in a book produced by a false prophet who was a necromancer.

I don't like
That Jindal mispronounces his last name so as to sound less Indian. Why be ashamed of your heritage. Why not use his real first name, Piyush. Does he think the people of his state are just ignorant boobs who are too racist to elect someone named Piyush, or does he have shame about his heritage. It's kind of spitting in his parents face to deny the names they gave him.

animalgirl steals my thunder
I was struck by the inadequacy of the research supporting the author's contention juxtaposed against the irony of Jindal's victory considering his Asian heritage in a section of the country not known for rising above its parochialism.

Just another swipe at evangelicals which I've come to expect, but this time from one of their own?

not to mention the fact...
that it was the media that made Romney's Mormonism an issue; not the voters.

Gnome
Not to nitpick, but few Indians consider theselves Asian. Racially, Indians are actually Caucasian--closer to Europeans than they are to their Asian neighbors.

Not that it really matters. I don't care what someone's background is. But I a suspicious of those who want to hide or obscure their background.

And I wonder--much has been made of the fact that Obama was born to a muslim father. Will those same people cast doubt on Jindal for being born to Hindu parents.

Governor Jindal, The "Christian Right,"
Does a politicion's religious views affect his governing? In a general sense, yes. Suppose a Muslim ran for President and were elected. Would he take the oath of office on the Bible or the Kuran? Would it make any difference?

Most people may not think so, but I would cringe to my bones if a Muslim were to become President of the United States. Figure this. There is no nation on this earth where Muslim law prevails that has freedom of speech or freedom of religion.

I'm saying here, that as long as a President takes the oath of office stating that he believes the Bible, as Mormons do to a degree, I would feel safe.

I've heard Goverer Jindal and would leap for joy if he were on the ticket with McCain. I might even get directly involved in the campaign.

Names.....
Jindal uses the common pronunciation as spoken by the mostly Anglo tongues in this country. I have a German surname which is difficult if spoken correctly and I long ago succumbed to the common pronunciation as I grew weary of correcting everyone; and they grew weary of being corrected.
As for Bobby, I read that Jindal was such a fan of The Brady Bunch as a little boy that he started to call himself Bobby, and that became his common name, used by family and friends ever since.

Animalgirl
Actually, I thought Jindal's parents were Sikh. I could be wrong.

As for an Anglicized name, it's a common practice among people whose native or ancestral languages are not that familiar to the majority of the American public. Indeed, look what a hash we make of the last names of people whose ancestors were German!

animalgirl
You're right, don't nitpick. My point is both valid and understandable despite the technicality.

It is my considered opinion that both you and Mr. Hill make the mistake of isolating one significant factor from the whole picture and attempt to build a case on that small sampling.

I doubt if Mr. Jindal's Indian heritage would get the same scrutiny (although it would doubtlessly be raised) as Obama's because it comes wrapped in an entirely different set of circumstances.

I could make an obverse argument as Mr. Hill, that Jindal's ascension is the result of his conservative bonafides and Mr. Romney's defeat as the result of his lack of same, and still be on more secure footing than both you and Mr. Hill.

Jindal is a rising star
who needs some more seasoning.

It's one thing
If a name is difficult to pronounce. If a name has sounds that don't exist in English, then by a means Anglicize. But how hard is it to stress the last syllable instead of the first. Sorry, but I think Piyush is trying to obscure his Indianess. I don't think it's out of self-hatred (since he did arry an Indian woman, and doesn't make her go by 'Cindy'), but because he thinks louisianans are racist, and he made a political calculation.

As a side note, I know there are Aericans who think nothing of butchering other people's names because they are too inconsiderate and self-centered to make an attempt to say something correctly, but it's just rude.


Hey evangelicals! Tolerance! Look it up!
Do you guys have dictionaries? Religious tolerance is a very important principle in this country. You can evangelize all you want but if only you guys get to decide who is good, you are advocating starting a war against the rest of us that you will lose. If the constant tidal wave of ugly bigoted comments we have been witnessing here at Townhall for over a year represent the true face and message of Christian evangelicals, well you guys have done Christianity a great disservice. All I hear is hate, hate, hate. Maybe you need to take a second look at these rock'n roll gaffe-prone ministers that are leading their flocks over the cliff. Religion can be calm and reflective. Listening to you guys makes us feel that you are a riot constantly looking for a place to happen.

DanS
"..Catholics are involved in a grand effort to sweep differences under the proverbial carpet. Why? Religious relativism and the will to power."

20 years a Catholic?

You clearly missed the catechisis. Try the RCIA.


Glen C is not speaking with accuracy
About the LDS faith. He is repeating typical anti-Mormon slams and obviously has an ax to grind.

Does anyone doubt for a moment that if Romney were evangelical, he would be our nominee right now? Those who try to cover their bias with talk of Romney's problem with social issues are ignoring his actual record. Just talk to leaders in Mass - they considered him an effective voice for their causes. I challenge anyone to show one single thing Romney did as Gov that was not socially consercative. You can't.

The truth is that there are some evangelicals who rejected him becuase they honestly do believe to elevate a Mormon is dangerous. And it's about time they all grow up and open their eyes. We lost the best candidate because of their ignorance.

I believe Romney will overcome religious bias the next time he runs. Huck showed us how ugly, unfair, and destructive it can be, and I doubt another politician will be able to get away with it again. Our party needs to show we're better than that. Let the dems play identity politics.

Pasadena Phil
So right. Thanks for all your comments. I especially liked your "How to win evangelicals" comment yesterday. (Say "Gee-zuss" alot.)

A Muslim is a whole diffferent story
in #18, MrRoy writes: "...Suppose a Muslim ran for President and were elected..."

As an evangelical, I'd happily vote for a Mormon, Catholic, or even a Hindu for president if they've demonstrated conservative / libertarian governance on a local level.

All of us approach prosilitising from an attitude of convincing someone to convert with words and ideas. Some in our ranks can be jerks about it (to use the family-friendly version), but they are off the reservation if they threaten bodily harm.

The Quran, on the other hand, teaches the violent subjugation or murder of any who will not convert. I will not vote for a Muslim.

Religious Tolerance
in #25 Pasadena Phil writes "Hey evangelicals! Tolerance!..."

Who's advocating a war? I think Catholics and Mormons are wrong on important points of doctrine, but consider them allies politically. And all I'm doing about the theological difference is talking - supporting my point of view from the Bible and rejecting other sources of authority.

Phil, can you tolerate my belief that Catholics and Mormons adhere to erroneous theology?

glen...whoever from IA
Ex mormon...hmmm? I can see why you are EX,
YOU NEVER WERE IN THE FIRST PLACE! Oh you may have been baptised,etc! But reading your idiocy
tells me you only thought you knew the church!
You don't even know the bible...sir! God had sex w/Mary??You are really HIGH on your a.m.
drink!Iam ready to slam dunk you for all the quotes you can come up with....but whoa, back to
the real content of this article....jindal!
He seems to be a good man...let's see how it plays out! The IA GOP PRIMARY was a real show of how ill this country can get using the name
Religion as a shield for ignorance!
elvis

voting for Jindal
If the worst thing you people can say against Jindal is that he calls himself Bobby instead of Piyush, I'm definitely voting for him given the chance.

I'll bet his parents encouraged him to take an American name, like most Asians do. It doesn't mean he's hiding anything (just look at him) - it's just the way many Asian immigrants like to do things.

And if he did take the name Bobby as for political reasons, SO WHAT?


Like others have said, I hope he stays off the McCain ticket, cleans up LA (and stays clean himself...), then runs for president in 4 or 8 years. Too much to hope for?

It's Bob Barr in the meantime.

I agree
with many posts above that posit that it is the media that continues to make religious affiliation an issue. I am closer to an evangelical than to any other of the media created religious classifications. However, I did vote for Romney in an effort to stop McCain.

I have no problem voting for any conservative who closely shares my values, be it a Mormon, Catholic, Jew, man, woman, black, white, Indian, how someone wants their name pronounced, etc. For me, it's all about a person's values.

I was offended by the media allegations that evangelicals were lock-step voting for Huckabee. I never trusted him, just like I don't think very highly of the majority of TV evangelists.

As for McCain, I cannot support him. I may reluctantly vote for him only if he has a VP with whom I can relate. Otherwise, I simply cannot pull the lever for any of the top three.

Bobby Jindal for the 21st century
Your argument is the most tortured piece of irrelevance I have ever read. The last half of the 20th century was marked by the accomplishments of Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan when the followed Milton Friedman. He has had no problem with the electorate and the leadership of Louisiana who support him overwhelmingly. He is Reagan squared and will be the world leader for the first part of the 21st century.

Evangelicals don't need to fear
Catholicism. As the Church was Catholic the first 1500 years - the Bible, the Creed, and the fundamental theology which binds all Christians today was formulated within that Church. The Catholic Church hasn't changed from it's earliest days, according to the writings of the early church fathers, so there is no need for Evangelicals to be wary of the institution that set down the means by which they seek eternal salvation.


Final thoughts before I go to church
Evangelicals (and independants) gave us our choice between Obama and McCain. They are the ones who are responsible for driving guys like Pasadena Phil to vote third party. Romney wasn't perfect, but he was, by far, our best choice. There would be no need for Bob Barr, if Romney were our nominee.


Some clarifications on Mormonism. We believe in the Godhead - God, the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. We believe they are distinct and separate beings who are one in purpose. Nothing in LDS theology conflicts with the teachings of the Bible. To say that we believe in a different Jesus is simply ridiculous.

The Nicene Creed, to my mind, was a compromise with a political dimension. I don't believe it was inspired, nor was it ever claimed to have been direct revelation from God.


Keep your stinking hands off . . .
My governor!!! I had to choose between David Duke & Edwin Edwards in one election a few years back. Just recently I had to "weather" Kathleen "MawMaw" Blanco for one term during Katrina and we know how well that turned out. We were "busted flat in Baton Rouge . . ." as the song goes and now it's " . . . me and Bobby "McGee" Jindal" . . . keep your stinking hands off my guvner!!!

Evangelicals
Evnagelicals are bringing down the Republican party. They are quick to criticize those with other religious beliefs and slow on focusing on policy issues. This hurts the party by turning off the independents who are needed to win any national election.

Evangelicals are supposed to do this
Evangelicals are supposed to be opposed to Catholics; they continue to re-fight the Protestant Reformation against the Catholic Church. There is no good reason for Evangelicals to see anything good in or about Roman Catholicism. The divide could not be more massive between these two religiouis traditions. Both claim exclusivity with regard to Christianity. The Roman Catholic church's claims to universality and exclusivity are well-known, but Evangelicals view their faith in the same way. For the Evangelical no version of Christianity other than their own is right and acceptable to God. Evangelicals, like the Roman Catholic hierarchy, know, just know, that they are the true church. You can't have more than one true church.

So, conservatives, don't blame the Evangelicals; they are true to their beliefs when they oppose a Catholic politician. Religion is a far more powerful force in society than politics.

Jindal will just lie, as he always does.
In his campaign for Governor, Jindal ran an ad in North Louisiana saying that he was a "born again Christian". Catholics typically do not describe themselves as "born again Christians" (a label typically saved for evangelical protestants).

But in reallity, it does't matter what Jindal's religion is or what his name is. What matters is the fact that even though he claimed to want to bring ethics reform, he really only wanted it for other people and not for him.

When a Republican legislature proposed a bill that would have increased transparency on the administration, Jindal balked. The reason why? Jimmy Faircloth, Jindal's executive council, said that the Governor needed to be able to meet with businesses who wanted to do business with the state behind closed doors. Sounds like old style louisiana politics to me!

Jindal also proved that he, and the state, are still for sale. A campaign contributor who bundled over $130 K in contributions was the first person to get a grant for his company. The total? $14 million. A good return on his campaign contribution, but another example of why Louisiana politics hasn't changed.

And for all of those new ethics laws? Well, a law was passed increasing the burden of proof to convict someone of an ethics violation. So any new ethics requirement lack the teeth required to make them meaningful or effective.

If selected, Jindal will get national attention and all these facts will come out. It will be an embarassment for the state because people will say "well, looks like Louisiana is the same ole curropt place, just with different window dressing".

Gestell
You appear to imply that Evangelicals are the true church. My observation is that they are not A Church, but several churches - each with varying interpretations of truth. How does one determine which is THE true Church?

born again
in #41 lj4adotcomdan writes "... Jindal ran an ad in North Louisiana saying that he was a "born again Christian". Catholics typically do not describe themselves as "born again Christians" (a label typically saved for evangelical protestants).

"Born again" comes from the Bible (John 3:3-7), which Catholics and evangelicals both use. To criticize a Catholic for calling himself born again makes no sense - don't all Catholics believe they are born again?


The transparency laws you bring up sound like a separation of powers problem to me. The executive branch should be able to talk to people off the record. Proposed contracts should be under public scrutiney.

If your last three paragraphs are true, that's a problem. You'll have to pardon my scepticism. Can you provide supporting links?

Religion
It concerns me that articles like this emphasize religious affiliation, as if it were the most important aspect of a person or politician's life. The United States is not a theocracy. Religion should play no part in politics. We should uphold separation of church and state, or we will become like the Muslims, allowing religious beliefs to cloud reason and our ability to think rationally and govern our every thought, determine our laws. That is just plain stupid. Wake up! As for Bobby Jindal, who cares what religion he is? Who cares if he calls himself Bobby or even Bubba? What possible difference does that make? Stupid!! Bobby Jindal is cleaning up Louisiana and making it safer, supporting law enforcement and making our cities, in particular New Orleans, safer. I am glad he's Louisiana's governor, and I hope he stays long enough to do permanent good here. The U.S. will be lucky to get him for President or Vice President, if that's the way it plays out. In the meantime, leave religion as a personal thing, not a significant political deciding factor in a candidate, unless that candidate has made it significant, like Obama has. I will not vote for a Muslim or a racist, NOR will I vote for a religious fanatic of any religion!!

cherylb
Frankly, if a politician is not guided by, and faithful to, a professed belief system - religious or otherwise - I dismiss them as unpredictable and easily manipulated. It would be difficult to apply integrity to an individual who does not adhere to his beliefs, whether he be president, minister, or next door neighbor.

Stay in Louisiana
Given the problems in La. and the potential for more problems with weather & storms, Jindal can do MORE good as Gov. La. is in the national bullseye and is being watched for ANY (it seems) problem. Jindal can help and do MORE good where he is right now. He SEEMS to have what it takes to help with the problems there especially with the potential for another Katrina style disaster. A good Republican gov in a potential trouble spot. Leave him be.

Fred - Belief System
Did I say anything against ethics? No. The problem is the confusion between ethics and religion. One can hold and adhere to high moral standards, or ethics, and not belong to any one particular religion. Muslims obey their holy book, the Koran, as their system of law. In the U.S., we are free to believe as we choose, but we must all obey the law. Laws are the foundation of our system of government, not religion.

PC #37
"Evangelicals (and independants) gave us our choice between Obama and McCain. They are the ones who are responsible for driving guys like Pasadena Phil to vote third party."

I've seen a lot of swipes at Evangelicals on these threads but that one takes the cake.

They can't even overturn Roe v. Wade and had serious difficulty banning partial birth abortion, and can't seem to stop the advance of the homosexual agenda, but they seem to have mysteriously acquired the influnece to decide who's going to be our next president, huh?

No, PC, the blame for this sad state of affairs lies more with the influence on an ill-informed electorate that the main stream media has acquired.

my pocketbook
I would send money to the RINO McCain if he selects Jindal as his veep.

p.c. and others... sheeez!
P.C.--I told my wife about our last "talk" she
laughed ! Your last posting --very good!
Others- Tho' I was raised a BAPTIST I have always been one who thinks for himself..and don't need others to tell me how to think!Those who go by the NICENE CREED are sheep!The nicene creed..is pure bull! There are dozens of scriptures that blow it right out of the water
and as PC stated..it was a political document more than anything! Ths 12 apostles, and CHRIST
didnt put that together !!Now for the clincher-
followers of CHRIST were not called CHRISTIANS
by the Apostles or Christ..they were called SAINTS! I have never worried about a candidate being (LDS)as I am. That is absurd!And Iam not going to start!
We better worry about Iran,Iraq,pork spending,
taxes,import/export,Illegal Immigration,energy,
and how much our corn flakes are gonna cost us..
thanks to those Iowa farmers? And bringing up religion is getting too corny! Reagan hardly ever went to church..and told dirty jokes once in a while...but had key features that led to a good over all Presidency! Boy,if Reagan had been
running in this last stint...the south would have chucked him in favor of huckabee??! After all,Reagan combed his hair real neat, and was an actor(plastic/tinsel), ohhhh,I almost forgot
he did have funny one liners!And that seems to be more important than anything today!
elvis

p.c. and others... sheeez!
P.C.--I told my wife about our last "talk" she
laughed ! Your last posting --very good!
Others- Tho' I was raised a BAPTIST I have always been one who thinks for himself..and don't need others to tell me how to think!Those who go by the NICENE CREED are sheep!The nicene creed..is pure bull! There are dozens of scriptures that blow it right out of the water
and as PC stated..it was a political document more than anything! Ths 12 apostles, and CHRIST
didnt put that together !!Now for the clincher-
followers of CHRIST were not called CHRISTIANS
by the Apostles or Christ..they were called SAINTS! I have never worried about a candidate being (LDS)as I am. That is absurd!And Iam not going to start!
We better worry about Iran,Iraq,pork spending,
taxes,import/export,Illegal Immigration,energy,
and how much our corn flakes are gonna cost us..
thanks to those Iowa farmers? And bringing up religion is getting too corny! Reagan hardly ever went to church..and told dirty jokes once in a while...but had key features that led to a good over all Presidency! Boy,if Reagan had been
running in this last stint...the south would have chucked him in favor of huckabee??! After all,Reagan combed his hair real neat, and was an actor(plastic/tinsel), ohhhh,I almost forgot
he did have funny one liners!And that seems to be more important than anything today!
elvis

Bobby Jindal ...
What a breath of fresh air! This is a man I would definately "hit the pavement for". He would be perfect for America!

Politics and Evangelicals
Most evangelicals, like most Americans, want easy labels so they can make a snap decision to vote for a person or not. It is truly sad that Mitt Romney’s candidacy became about Mormonism rather than the merits of his record. And this brings me to my next point.

Particular candidates have particular views. Just because a religion formally teaches a doctrine does not mean a candidate holds that belief. Even if they do, so what? Politicians serve at the will of the people, so if it looks as if a theological view may influence a decision, then Americans must inform that politician of their opposition.

Evangelical leaders must start training their “flocks” that political worldview as a subset of, not equal to, theological worldview. Additionally, since politics is the pragmatic implementation of the ideal, it necessarily involves compromise. Training in political thought never happens in church settings. Christian education must involve thoughtful training beyond how to apply Bible passages to one’s personal struggles. Evangelicals will become politically effective only when they learn how to compromise for political gain.

Some might argue evangelicals have previously been effective w/o doing this, but what happens when they don’t have a candidate? They don’t know what to do, that’s what. This was evident in the current election process. Evangelicals had to find a candidate, Huckabee, to see themselves as viable. But as an evangelical, I wouldn’t vote for him because he was not socially or financially conservative enough. Therefore, despite our theological agreement, I would have disagreed with him on many cultural or policy issues.

When will evangelicals learn they can agree with Catholics, Mormons, Jews, or Muslims, on a host of political issues and join them in cultural fights without feeling threatened by their theological views?

Bobby Jindal
Jindal has done a great job in every job he has held. He was nicknamed Bobby at an early age. He took the Department of Health and Hospitals under Gov. Mike Foster when it was running at a huge deficit, had duplicate services, and was totally disorganized and turned it into a department that gave better and more services at the same time he made it fiscally sound. He was elected to two terms in Congress, where his score on conservative (read - responsible) voting was 97%. He is brilliant. He is very personable and comfortable when talking to individuals or to groups.

Louisiana is no longer the state of graft and corruption. We have instituted term limits, which was a tremendous help in throwing out the scoundrels. Jindal called a special session of the legislature and pushed through ethics reforms. He is handling the regular session beautifully. He takes his message to the people, which causes the 'good ole boys' a problem they never had before.

As to being 'seasoned', Jindal's record make Obama look like a kindergartner.


Bobby Jindal can wait
We need him where he is to get more public recognition. I'm afraid that he could get tarnished as a useless VP (they all are) in a McCain debacle.

Let's keep him clean for the future.

Evangelicals
are what all Christians are called to be (do, actually). What's with the weird inaccurate distinction between evangelicals and Roman Catholics, or any other Christian denomination?

Re: Racism of the Left
Again, from Boutte and animalgirl we see the racism of the Left raise its ugly head.

Funny, they can't seem to get past Jindal's ancestry and accept the fact that he is an AMERICAN!

As a person who is the daughter of an immigrant, I consider myself AMERICAN FIRST. I have an English first name because my parents wanted me to be an AMERICAN, not an Asian. I am so sick of leftards who try to insist that I am Asian, rather than AMERICAN. You people are the worst racists I've ever encountered in this country. It's the right and conservatives who treat me like an American and that's partly why I left the Democrat Party.

Jindal changed his name to Bobby when he was in grade school, so this was no political motive - just assimilation.

He is a brilliant man who practices his faith devoutly, and understands core conservative values.

He is one to watch in the future. Let him clean up Louisiana first, then we'll vote for him to lead America to reform.

Nicene creed
Elvis (#51), I'm curious what parts of the Nicene Creed you dispute. Also, which version of the creed...

Also, Peter and Luke both used the term Christian ("follower of Christ"), although you are right that we were mainly called "saints" ("holy ones") at the time. See Acts 11:26, 26:28, 1Peter 4:16.


Regardless of our theological differences (like I said before), I would have no problem voting for a Catholic or a Mormon - in fact I did vote for Romney in the primary. I consider us all to be on the same side politically.

cherylb
A standard of ethics has to be formed by a code of some sort, otherwise they are simply relative to circumstances or one's mood. It is not logical to use American laws as a standard of ethics, for at least two reasons: 1) Many of our laws are inherently unethical (like the abuse of eminent domain or discriminatory taxation), and 2)laws are not a standard, as they are susceptible to modification by the courts, in defiance of the will of the people - such as the homosexual marriage law in CA.

Religion defines one's standards. If a politician adheres to a particular religion, the voters can have some gauge by which to anticipate how he/she might address issues not covered during a campaign, as well as having the expectation of some degree of moral accountability, which most people appreciate in those entrusted with their quality of life.

msewell...from calif.
YOU SPEAK MUCH WISDOM...WHEN WILL THEY GET IT? AFTER CARTER,CLINTON YOU WOULD THINK THAT THEY
REALIZE WHAT YOU JUST POSTED! MAYBE AFTER $8.OO
BOX OF CORN FLAKES..THEY WILL?
ELVIS

To Austin
First, Austin, I enjoyed your article. I did not loose, as some here did, the point you were trying to make.

Religious intolerance is no better than racial bigotry and you have been given examples of each here, but likely unbeknownst by the writer.

Not nearly as close of a friend as I wish I was, though I do consider myself a friend, I have had many wonderful opportunities to get to know Governor Jindal. I played a small part in the Governor?s election, met with him at political rallies, spoke with him personally the night before his inauguration, later celebrated with him at his Governor?s Ball, and most recently, Mary Katherine Hamm and I actually got to share dinner with Governor Jindal at the Mansion.

http://louisianaconservative.com/?p=467

With no doubts, I believe Governor Bobby Jindal is the ?real deal?. He is a brilliant and a most sincere person who will make a fine President. I only hope I will be able to dedicate much more of my time to help make it happen.


Hate?
Pasadena Phil complains that there isn't tolerance by those discussing other religious belief systems, and claims all he read was hate? It is not intolerant to demonstrate where one's belief system differentiates from another's. Nor is it hate to state facts about a belief system. Crying "intolerance" or "hate" is about marginalizing the debate - silencing opposition.
Elvis claims I was never a Mormon, but he would have no way of knowing my history. Many, many LDS prophets have taught that their god had sex with Mary and Elvis either sincerely is unware of that or else he is lying. And against PC, there is way too much of Mormonism that conflicts with the Bible to go into here. Anyone really interested can go to http://www.mrm.org

Church Affiliation
I first want say that I wouldn't attend a church pastored by Mr. Huckaby. Next I would remind you that Bill Clinton attended a Southern Baptist Church. I'm sure that republicans in general wanted a conservative candidate, a category in which none of the candidates fit. When Steve Largent was one of Oklahoma's Representatives he garnered little support as a candidate for Majority leader at which point I realized how few republican conservatives there are in our United States House of Representatives.

Bobby did well in La.
He got elected despite claims that "Bubba won't vote non-white". There were billboards all over the state set up by a group called "Bubbas for Bobby". THAT'S the degree of disgust they felt for the status quo. Being a Catholic in La isnt like being Catholic in TN or SC. A lot of Catholics have lived there since the French and Spanish days.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Fred - Ethics Defined
Fred, you're confused. Ethics is "the discipline dealing with what is good and bad or right and wrong or with moral duty and obligation," according to Merriam-Webster. Ethics are not formed by one's mood. Ethics are objective, not subjective.

An individual's actions reflect his or her moral standards and beliefs, beliefs that are based on their values. Religion may influence the individual, but it does not guarantee anything.

It's not what you say you believe, it's what you do that tells the tale. And, there is a difference between religion and ethics.

Ignorance
I take offense to the comments by ?animalgirl? of Georgia and to those of ?Boutte? in California, who both suffer from self-righteous ignorance or maybe disingenuous bigotry. It is more than obvious that neither know much, if anything (correct), about my friend. My advice for them both would be: ?It is better to be thought a fool, than to open one?s mouth and prove it.?

Back to the article at hand.

Raised a Protestant Christian and married to a Catholic Christian, I am always troubled by those intolerant of other religious views, especially given the foundation of this great country to escape religious persecution. It too often seems that the separation of Church and State is only important when it is agreeable to those affected.

I am far from being a theological expert, but I know every religion has dark times in their history that they would like to forget, and all have their fair share of hypocrites. Even more important, there isn?t a soul walking on this Earth that qualifies to cast the first stone.

For me, I would prefer a greater separation from religion and politics. I do not believe it is possible to ?legislate? morality and condemning another for a simple difference of opinion is the height of ignorance. I think the ?Good Samaritan? example was an excellent contribution.

How unfortunate conservatives would choose to shoot their own foot over the imperfections of religion.

cherylb
You misread or misunderstood my post.

If one's ethics are subject to mood or circumstance, then they do not have an ethical standard. People often use their religion as their ethical guide, as I do. You apparently use another standard. Our ethics are not determined by the same standard. Therefore, ethics are not objective because everyone does not use the same standard.
Our laws help to bridge the subjectivity, but as I pointed out earlier, they are not necessarily a measure of ethical standards. What is good or bad, right or wrong is relative to one's core beliefs - that makes it subjective. If a candidate professes a particular religion, it allows the constituents to have some idea of the ethics that will guide their decision-making in office.

Good Old Boy lackey?
lj4adotcomdan
Location: LA

Ah, yes, the distortions of the Dimocrat Party.

Why don't we tell all of these good folks the REAL TRUTH? Hmmmm?

I would like to offer a most disturbing example of what the Democrat Party is capable of doing when it comes to religion.

During Governor Jindals campaign for Governor, Chris Whittington, La. Dim Party Chairman, with the likely blessing of Walter Boasso, Dim Gubernatorial candidate, put out a campaign ad ONLY in the heavily Protestant North Louisiana. Taking early writings by the Governor when he was in college and taking words completely out of context, (aka BLATANT LIES)the ad wrongfully claimed Governor Jindal thought the Protestant religion was inferior to the Catholic religion.

Thankfully, it backfired in a big way. However, proving their low moral character, the Louisiana Democrat Party reinstated Whittington as Chairman.

http://louisianaconservative.com/?p=226


Making the whole sordid affair even worse, it was later discovered that the most inept Governor in La. history, "24-hour Kate",(Democrat) helped finance the despicable campaign slander.

http://louisianaconservative.com/?p=262



Austin is on to something
I am Catholic and I know that historic Christianity is Catholic. Catholic and the Orthodox shared all but one doctrine in common until around the 1930's. It was a doctrine that all Christians shared until the 1930's. The Catholic Church is the only Church or Christian Community that still maintains the truth of that doctrine. But, it is not the doctrine that Protestants attack the Catholic Church for holding. I understand that it is difficult to believe in the real presence and the doctrine seems to be contrary to reason. I will not dwell on the subject, but, only mention it because it causes so many to reject or question the Catholic Church. Since, Protestants separate their faith from politics they should be able to vote for a Catholic or a Mormon for that matter if the candidate's positions fits the voter's political goals. Catholics are not told for who to vote. Rather Catholics are not free to knowingly vote for a candidate that has an immoral position precisely because of that candidate's intent to implement an immoral action or law; however, a Catholic is free to vote for that candidate to prevent a greater evil.

reply to Fred
No, I'm trying to describe a position, not support it. The term "Evangelical" covers a number different denominations (e.g., Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, etc.). Evangelicals, regardless of the specific denominational tradition they belong to, generally believe that their KIND of Christianity is the only valid kind of Christianity; hence, they (together) are the only true "Church." The Roman Catholic church makes the same claim.

[Consider a common usage among Southern Baptists; when many of them say "Christian" or "Christian church," they don't mean Catholics or Lutherans or Episcopalian, for none of these are really "Christian" churches for the Southern Baptists. Only they, and denominations very similar to them, are real Christians.

Animal Girl No.14

As per always, negative, negative, negative and against anything conservative.

Is that your best reply to Jindal.??.

Your name seems to fit your posts, but not the state of Georgia you claim to be from or at least inhabit.
.
.

The same last name.
Kepha,

ALL Sikhs have the same "last name": Singh. Don't ask why I have no clue.

-Ray

Back to Bobby Jindal
I don't want him to run on McCain's ticket. That is not what I meant to convey, if anyone misunderstood. He is very qualified to run; but, I would rather he keep up his excellent work here and not be sullied by this election cycle debacle.

The Potential Problem
Even though I supported Romney, I did have a problem with helping to mainstream Mormonism. That is, until I considered the case of the Catholic church, which I also have problems with and remembered that I probably wouldn't have a problem voting for a Catholic. As long they weren't some anti-war loon or paraded the fact that their church believes it's God's true church.

GLEN...AGAIN
I KNOW THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH..BETTER THAN YOU glen! I never said you were never baptised a mormon!Go back and read again to get the full meaning of what I said ! Glen, you believe the bible , you think, but protestants dont have a slightest inkling of all the gospel..just parts
here and there!Why do you believe the bible?Why?
did you write it? Have you ever held the parchiments in your hands? Did you translate it?
There are so many things to be said to you-
and this is not the appropriate place, but befor I let you go--- the church of JESUS CHRIST
baptised for the dead..Paul was not doubting that..he was chastising them for not believing
in the hereafter...yet doing a sacred ordinance
that related to the hereafter! CHRIST taught more than one glory in the hereafter, there was a prexistence for everyone, people dont go directly to "heaven" when they die, the book of mormon was predicted by ezekieland others!I could go on and on ...this is not the place!
I used to think like you....so I will not say anymore! Lets stick to common points and discuss
our nations political needs and challenges!
ooops,almost forgot one point/question: Can a
woman get pregnant without having sex?Hmmmmm!
Sunday school over-
elvis

Republicans Need to Get Over Religion
The Republican party is dying. One of the chief reasons is the born-agains. Consider a snake oil salesman like Huckabee and how he and his followers were able to sabotage Mitt Romney - by far the best candidate, in favor of the detestable John McCain. The born-agains saddled Republicans with McCain. If you are Catholic, Jew, or Mormon you can forget about being a candidate for the Republican party. Religion is to Republicans as race and sex are to Democrats - it's the Republican identity-politics Achilles Heel. We need a new party that keeps religion out. Moral values in - that's OK. But the new American Nationalist party must keep born-again political activists out. Their bigotry is ruinous for conservatism. I would never consider myself a Republican I believe in limited government, freedom from judicial activism, private property, and freedom from government religion, whether it's global warming, socialist nanny-statism, or Zionism.

WratWrangler
I know a Sikh physician named Malik. All of his children are now physicians. His daughter was married by family arrangement to another Sikh, the name escapes me, but it was not Singh. Just thought I would toss that out FYI.

Whoa there!
Look, before we get all excited about the next fresh-faced, clean-cut GOP candidate, we need to take a look at the doctrine under which the Party is operating. Everyone is waiting for the next great conservative, but where would he come from, given the ideological vacuum under which this country now exists? People get their ideas from the culture. You would be lucky to find 2 in 10 random people in this country who understand in clear terms that the basic, most fundamental political issue is individualism vs. collectivism. There is no comprehensive, consistent ideological platform of the modern GOP candidate. They just go with the flow, with no firm principles to guide them.

What we need to do as a Party is rewrite the Party philosophy to reflect our central belief in individualism. Then, we need to identify what is wrong today and form positions and agendas on them in accordance with the Party philosophy. Then, we need to institute an indoctrination process on our candidates so that they understand, are loyal to, and can apply the philosophy and stand firm on the agenda. After that, formal mechanisms for Party loyalty can take effect.

Right now, anything goes with Republicans. If you think Jindal will save us, you will be disappointed. We have to save ourselves.

Bobby Jindal
Bobby Jindal is not acting like a conservative in Louisiana. So far Jindal is about as conservative as Barack Obama. Looking for a savior take your pick.

tc
What, specifically, has Jindal done that is not conservative? What, specifically, has he done, promoted or said that compares with a specific action or promise of Obama? Note that I qualify my questions with requests for specifics.

I'm not looking for a savior. I found my Savior, already.

Glenn Chatfield,
Glenn Chatfield,

Elvis is correct.

It is NOT Mormon doctrine that there was a sexual union between Heavenly Father and Mary. LDS believe that Jesus is literally the son of Our Father, not the Holy Ghost. this is supported by the Bible.
Women get pregnant every day without intercourse.

Bottom line, I don't know how it was done and neither do you.


What does this have to do with Jindal or Romney and whether they would be a good VEEP??


One final word, if you want to learn about basketball, ask someone who loves and plays the game. The same is true with any subject. If you want to learn about Mormonism, go to lds.org or mormon.org, not some hate site!!! Common sense.

Bobby Jindal -2
Gov Foster was a republican for about 15 minutes before he beat Cleo Fields a black man for Gov. This was a contest decided along racial lines. BJ lost to that moron K Blackout even though he was the superior candidate, and Blackout proved to be a disaster as govenor, and couldn't handle disasters in a vulnerable state. BJ seems to have learned from his experiences, and is now putting survival over ideology, by playing ball with Foster and the La legislature. Just a transplants opinion of the last few weeks of BJ's agenda. I doubt any true conservative would approve a 300% pay increase for the Louisiana legislature, but this is louisiana.

Reason
Wendy in WA and doctorfixit in CA: two clear, silver notes soar free from a cacophony of cognitive dissonance.

double standard
Note the interesting double-standard from the country-club Republicans:

If evangelical Christians are reluctant to support a candidate of a different religion, this is called "bigotry" and "intolerance".

But when the secularists refuse to vote for a candidate because they don't like his religion -- like, say, the attacks on Huckaby -- this is called "fighting bigotry" and "tolerance".

Christians are told that we should support whoever the nominee is for the sake of party unity. Even when the nominee has made nasty attacks on Christians, like McCain has. But if a Christian is doing well, the secularists tell us that if we manage to get him nominated, this is going to "destroy party unity", that is, they will refuse to support him.

Personally, I have no problem voting for a Catholic or a Mormon. I routinely work with Catholics on pro-life issues, and Mormons as a group have very high moral standards. And most of my evangelical friends feel the same way. Sorry, we're not the bigots. It's the liberals and the country club secularists who hate all religious people and then just blindly assume that we must hate each other as much as they hate us, they're the bigots.

ignorant article
It's funny how the Christian denomination is what is most impressive to the author regarding the fate of Jindal. I think the author he has a shallow faith or none at all by his perspective, but only God knows. Granted since JFK no catholic has been POTUS and no VP has ever been catholic. As a Christian, my fellow Christians include Jindal, Pope whomever, and even Rev Wright. Some great Governors or church leaders and even loud mouth pastors who embarrass every believing Christian on the planet. It happened in the new church, it's noted in many of the epistles, and even goes on today. It's called disagreement in the Christian church.
Hearing the Mormon Elder Ballard on the Medved program on friday really was laughable . Elder Ballard, one of the 12 quorum apostles (not sure of the exact title) said "it is hard to believe that people today don't consider Mormons as Christians". News flash they aren't. by definition, beliefs and obviously theology.
So the author is comparing apples to thumb tacks with the Romney comparison. The article is stupid and shows the low thought process of ignorant journalist. Why wouldn't a theologian at Biola university have those exact views. They are Christian believers and have a Biblical world view. It's not bigoted or discriminatory.

The question is why a mormon candidate didn't do well? Maybe you associate the reputation of their church leadership with the candidate, just like obama has to.

Mormons can believe whatever they choose but don't insult all believing Christians with the "we are christians too" flim flam. It's offensive, and a down right lie.

That would clear my conscious for voting mormon.



(yawn)
Re:

"What is rather telling is the fact that evangelicals (generally) are educated and knowledgeable about the beliefs and tenets of both Mormonism and Catholicism. Conversely, Mormons, Catholics, and Jews (generally) are clueless about evangelical beliefs."

Wrong on both counts.
As a cradle Catholic who left the Church for a few years, spent time on the evangelical side, and then returned to the Church, I wish I had a dollar for every misconception, Biblically unsound assertion, and error-filled accusation we Catholics have to put up with from evangelicals. Most evangelicals I know have learned all they know about the Catholic faith not from Catholic sources themselves (!), but from their pastors who TELL them what Catholics believe. And, of course, usually those pastors are at best misinformed, and at worst, completely ignorant. They pass that ignorance, that bigotry, and that blindness on to their congregations, who then proceed to tell me how wrong my Church is. Where's the "informed" contingent there?

It behooves us to quit painting one side--evangelicals--as somehow "knowledgeable" and tolerant about other faiths (while they proceed to look down their noses at them). Many, many, many of them...are simply not. Especially about Catholics.

JB




Chris: supporting links
Supporting links for all my claims can be found at the blog on the website that is part of my name.

On the issue of being "born again". I am well aware of the fact that Catholics are "born again" on baptism. However, most catholics I have spoken to (including my wife) have said that Catholics do not label themselves as "Born Again Christians".

And it is not a seperation of powers. There are currently SOME transparency requirements on the Governors office (just as there are on the legislature). Jindal ran on ethics reform and on increased transparency. To only support increased transparency on others and not himself is hypocrisy.

Constant Gardener
Jindal's record at DHH was not as great as you imply. Louisiana's health ranking dropped during his tenure. Jindal shut down health clinics for people in rural areas, forcing them to either go without healthcare or make trips they could not afford to larger cities. And he did this while running a surplus. Doesn't shutting down a health clinic when running a surplus sound irresponsible for the person in charge of providing healthcare to those who need it?

Mormons
Elvis, the Biblical Mary conceived without sexual intercourse, but the LDS Jesus was conceived through sexual relations with the LDS god. You are the one who needs to study into the matter. Try reading Bruce McConkie, Brigham Young, and a host of other LDS leaders/prophets who taught that very thing. No pre-existence since 1 Cor. 15:44-46 says the natural is first, then the spirtual - LDS have it backwards. No baptism for the Christian dead - Paul talked about "they" not "us" and his point was that if there was no resurrction then why do even "they" baptise for the dead. One obscure passage does not a doctrine make. Besides, Heb. 9:27 says you die and then judgment - no second chance. Read Ezekiel in context and the two sticks are the two nations, not two books.
Hillplus, people who expose false teachings are not "hate" groups; if it was not for my love of the LDS people I wouldn't be concerned for their salvation.

If you want to call yourselves "Mormons" that's fine, but don't call yourselves "Christians" - that title was taken at Antioch.

Glenn Chatfield
Glenn Chatfield,

I repeat. It is NOT LDS doctrine that there was a sexual union that conceived Jesus. You are incorrect. Jesus Christ is NOT the son of the Holy Ghost, but is the Son of God the Eternal Father. This is biblical. NO ONE knows how it was done, you don't, and neither do I. It hardly matters anyway, however God did it, it was good and right.

As to the baptism for the dead, Why on earth would PAUL use something he believed to be erroneous doctrine to SUPPORT something he held so dear, namely resurrection??!! Wouldn't happen.

I call hate groups what they are. Anyone whose only purpose for existing is to tear down, is a hate group. Call a spade a spade. Any idiot can tear down, it takes someone decent to build up.

One final word to you and MIKE, I find it offensive that you would consider yourselves the final arbiter as to who may call themselves Christian. Luckily, God is my judge and you don't have input WHATSOEVER in the matter.







Glenn of IA
I appreciate your pointing out your views of how LDS/Mormons are "wrong" with the Bible. However, couldn't you do that with many of the other "Christian" churches? There are a number of "Christian" churches that "break off" and start their own version of Christianity because they do not believe the "interpretation" of their current preacher/minister. The context of points you made I would disagree with.

I am Christian.......not because I wear the title of "evangelical" or "born again"...but because I believe ONLY through the atoning sacrifice of God's literal son, JESUS CHRIST, will I be saved from both physical and spiritual death. The philosophies of men mixed with scripture, such as the Nicene creed, will not save me. It would be great IF evangelicals and other Christians would quit splitting hairs and accept religions who believe in Christ (whether THEIR exact views or not) AND who try to live good, decent Christian lives.

And Jindal.....sounds like he has some great qualities!!!! Just as long as he's not a close buddy/confidante of the Catholic priest recently at Obama's church (oops....newly "former" church). I have absolutetly nothing against Catholics, but that priest was pretty "unChristianlike" from my perspective!

Fred - Ethics
Good and bad, right, and wrong are not subjective. Ethics is based on the nature of reality and the objectively demonstrable requirements of man's nature. What we are, the kind of beings we are, determines what values we should pursue and what disvalues we should avoid. It is not mere "subjective whim" to say that putting your hand in the fire is "bad" or "wrong" -- since your hand will be harmed by that action. Human life is the objective standard of value in ethics for human beings.

There are many religions and many religious denominations. There is only one reality. The ultimate arbiter of truth and right and wrong is reality, and if we properly use reason consistently to properly apprehend the nature of reality (and the nature of human life and its requirements), then we can communicate with one another and all (potentially) can agree based on that common standard of reference. It is the one non arbitrary means of resolving disputes.

glen.......your belief is wrong...but
you obviously are a good person...because you believe in Christ !!
I for one am one "mormon" who doesnt give a
fig leaf for the title of Christian! Iam familiar with Mc conkie...smile! you don't understand squat about the subjects you talk about..for example: STICKS were the reference
to scriptures...which they kept the scrolls on
not nations! And the bible is the stick of judah
...duh!Not the stick of Joseph...! duh!
you dont understand too many things to spend our lives back and forth at each other!
Prophets words are only direct revelation when THE HOLY GHOST FALLS UPON THEM FOR A SPECIFIC REASON...LIKE MOSES (TEN COMMANDMENTS) THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WHEN MOSES SAID I THINK SO AND SO IT IS PROPHECY! THAT IS THEIR OPINION
ONLY!The prophets are still human...Apostle peter received a revelation about Jesus and his divinity...then turned around and cut an ear off of an authority,sheeez! Noah was told by God
that the weather was going to get pretty wet and he better build a big boat and Noah had some real weaknesses!
Yes, B. Young made implication of the sex thing...just his opinion,period!
People wearing crosses,murder,rape, cheat,lie,
etc. yet they consider them selves christians!
"Christianity"...is very divided..maybe you are so narrow minded you don't even realize that
and don't say you all have one common belief..
because you can't speak for anyone but yourself!
I agree with you..exposing false doctrine isn't a hate thing..that's why I don't hate you
for all the false doctrine you spew and will continue to spew!
Don't be surprised if I have other things to
do ....... this type of conversation is over between us!
Have a good day.
elvis

Why I did not vote for Romney.
I am an Evangelical and I am more than willing to vote for whoever will advance my agenda of smaller government ,lower taxes and outlawing abortion regardless of their personal religious beliefs.

I will gladly vote for any atheist , Mormon or Devil worshipper who will prevent people from murdering their babies, lower taxes and MAKE THE GOVERNMENT LEAVE ME ALONE.

The problem with Romney was the fact that he instituted a state run health care system that he could wait to dump on the rest of the nation. He changed his mind about abortion at least once and I think twice.I actually considered Gulianni until I found that he was pro-choice.

Apologies
My apologies to all for participating in injecting religion into this discussion. It has no place here. My reason for doing so was to clear up erroneous information.
I will not vote for someone based on their religion, and would hope others would do the same. It is more important to vote for those who share our values and conservative political views. Give Jindal a few years and he will do great things.

Meanwhile, we have McCain in part because of those who vote religion over all else.

Governor Bobby Jindal
Governor Jindal being a Catholic has not been a problem here in Louisiana. Bobby has preached or spoken in just about every Protestant, Evangelical and Pentecostal Church in Louisiana, when his time comes to speak in the same Churches around the Nation it want be a problem with them either.

Thanks,

Hank

philosophy revealed
in #88 lj4adotcomdan writes: "... Jindal shut down health clinics for people in rural areas, forcing them to either go without healthcare or make trips they could not afford to larger cities. And he did this while running a surplus. Doesn't shutting down a health clinic when running a surplus sound irresponsible for the person in charge of providing healthcare to those who need it?"

I was wondering what your real problem was with Jindal. Now I know - he's a conservative, and you're a socialist, so naturally you don't like him, but you've got to find a way to present it to TH types so they won't like him either. You were doing pretty well until this post.

You've revealed that you think citizens not only have the right to medical care, but to have the state pay for it in a location convenient to them. You are for socialized medicine.

The real question is not how LA's health ranking fared, but how economically free are the citizens.

People should take care of their own medical care. If they have a legitimate reason not to be able to do so, they should seek charitable help from a church or whatever - not use the government to take other peoples' time and property by force so they can continue to live irresponsibly.

And if you think churches aren't doing enough, I agree there is plenty of blame to be shared there, starting with churches. But if the government would get out of the forced charity business, I believe the church would pick up the slack nicely.

Nice try
As far as Bobby goes I hope he turns out to be the Superman we all want but he needs some time as Governor. Let's be patient.

My problem with Romney/Mormonism was nothing more than trust & I know we've all beat this to death so I won't repeat it again.

As far as this comment goes:
"there are still plenty of evangelicals in the pews whose opinions of Catholicism are not much better than their views of Mormonism"

Totally disagree unless by "plenty" you mean "some." I think you are misleading by using the word "plenty."

Please tell me how liberal Biola is these days?

As an Evangelical
I take this from 2 points of view.
1. The Liberal Romney was not to be trusted.
2. Catholic and Christian theology share enough of the same faith to both be with in the same spectrum of suspension of disbelief and faith. Mormonism is by far one of the most foolish attempts at a fake religion in the history of mankind. Christianity Judaism and Islam are all set in the historical setting. In many cases their writings are the sole reliable source for understanding portions of history. Pontious Pilate was unknown outside the Bible until he was rediscovered by archaeologists. The cities of Solomon were located by archaeologists using Biblical sources. Even Islam has given us insight into the lives and politics of the Arabian tribes. Mormonism requires a suspension of disbelief far beyond normal, expecting us to believe things that are quite impossible such as Jesus coming to Pre Columbian America. Not only does it require vast stretches of imagination, but that crap was used to establish polygamy racism and domination by its corrupt leaders. All the great religions of the world have given mankind something. Mormonism hasn't.

Catholics and politics
Too many false assumptions in the article.

The Catholic Church is as different to me if not more so than the mormons. It is a cult in the sense that they do not teach scriptural doctrine (although they teach some), their priests pretend they can forgive sins, and the pope is treated as a god. The Mormons at least do not have a history of trying to take over and influence civil governments and mix religion and politics like the Roman Catholic Church has in years past where they brutually tried to stomp out "heretics" (protestants).

I just returned from Rome and there are still Catholic churches there with statues and paintings taking credit for trying to stamp out protestants. At one church the priests were shown stomping on the heads of protestants.

Perhaps "cult" doesn't fit, and there are many fine Catholic people, but the religion itself is pure blasphemy. There is only one mediator, Christ.

MikeB
Ever heard of Quetzalcoatl?

Jesus
Since we Christians believe that Jesus was God in the Flesh, and If we believe that God is and always has been Omnipotent and has Omniprescience, then why Could Not God, Appear in North America, as He would be capable of being Any Place He Chose. So, Romney, a modern-day Mormon should not dismissed due to his faith. Mormons that this writer has known are Great Parents who Raise Great Kids, and they, the Mormons promote Family Values and actually raise decent kids free of Drugs, Premarital Sex, and other forms of self-destructive behavior. So, let us not point fingers at Romney for being Mormon or Jindal for being Catholic. Let us select Leaders who know how to lead and who have proven that they good Sense When It Comes to Governing and Reducing Spending and Crime. Who wants a so-called Christian such as Obama who Never Does Anything that Reflects Christianity and Who Has No Idea how to Reduce Wasteful Government Spending, but instead, promises more of the same.

Jerome Ennis in Alabama

For the record...
I was one of those quoted in the Biola article who simply stated the fact that LDS missionaries would take advantage of an LDS president. I would have voted for Romney if he got the GOP. But in the primaries, it's totally fair for people to elect someone who best represents them in as many areas as possible. If theology matters more to Evangelicals, then who are we to tell them that it shouldn't? For more on my thoughts on a Romney presidency, see my blog on CourageousChristiansUnited.org.

Hurricane Bruiser - History
Oh, please .. the Catholic Church is not stomping on any heads today! And, this is America, not Rome.

Chris: Part 1
"I was wondering what your real problem was with Jindal. Now I know - he's a conservative, and you're a socialist, so naturally you don't like him, but you've got to find a way to present it to TH types so they won't like him either. You were doing pretty well until this post."

First, if my ONLY problem was his record at DHH then you MIGHT have a point. However, had Jindal done a wonderful job at DHH I would still have an issue with his ethics hypocrisy so your argument is flawed.

Plus, Jindal was hired to be the HEAD of the agency that provides healthcare to people who are too poor to afford it for themselves. Now, we can debate the topic of if people have a right to receive healthcare or not but that is not relevant to Jindal's job performance at DHH. The fact is that currently there ARE laws that provide for people getting healthcare from the government and Jindal accepted the job of administering that department. And you view his cutting of services as him doing a "good job"? It would be like hiring a vegetarian to be a manager at Burger King.

"You've revealed that you think citizens not only have the right to medical care, but to have the state pay for it in a location convenient to them. You are for socialized medicine."
Actually, there is a law that states people cannot be rejected in an emergency. By making more people go without healthcare until it becomes an emergency, it costs US taxpayers (and health insurance holders) more money in the long run. It is FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE to provide preventive care. Why? Because it costs US less money if our tax dollars pay for $5K in preventive services instead of our increased insurance rates paying for $50K in emergency services.

Native Americans and Christians
Of course, most Americans who came from the public school system that has systematically taught selective history throughout the history of the country, have never heard anything about Quetzalcoatl or anything else important about Native American culture, history, civilizations, beliefs, etc. Conquerors always writer history that glorifies themselves. For example, most public school texts, taught garbage such as the Native People's of this continent were Un-Civilized and were just a bunch of savages. Of course, nothing was or is further from the truth. There were great civilizations of very good, decent, and intelligent people. The savages and heathens came over by ship from foreign lands. The so-called Explorers were nothing more than Mercenary Pirates working for their respective Kings and Queens who were Mis-Representing Christianity as Catholics and Protestants. These European Monarchies were always at war with one another and were forever plying the world looking for Lands to Plunder and their methods included genocide to get what they wanted. The Papal Bull of 1452 basically said that "any nation that professed to be Christian were to go out in the world and find new lands and peoples. If the people you find are not already claimed by some other so-called Christian nation, that the land and it's people would now Belong To the Discovering Nation. That the people you Discover will not voluntarily become Christian and under your domination, that these People are to be forced to submit or destroyed. The Land and It's people now belong to said Christian Nation that sent out the Conquerors." Jerome Ennis in Alabama

Part Two
"The real question is not how LA's health ranking fared, but how economically free are the citizens."
Jindal's job was to run the healthcare system of Louisiana. While economic freedom is a very important thing to have, it has nothing to do with Jindal's job performance.

"People should take care of their own medical care. If they have a legitimate reason not to be able to do so, they should seek charitable help from a church or whatever - not use the government to take other peoples' time and property by force so they can continue to live irresponsibly."

I live in the real world where some people are unable to pay for their own care for whatever reason. Perhaps they have no family and have a disability that prevents them from working. Perhaps their family does not make enough money to help support them. Perhaps temporary unemployment makes it impossible for them to afford healthcare in the short term. And while it may be nice to think that churches will be able to pick up all the slack, we both know that they wont be able to. So where is the safety net?

To suggest that all people who accept government healthcare are living irresponsibly shows you really do not understand the real world of healthcare and are only living in the conservative dream world where government spends no money.

And as I already explained, with the law requiring hospitals to take people in an emergency, we are already paying for other people's healthcare. So you have two choices. Either pay for preventive care with your tax dollars OR pay for emergency care with your insurance dollars.

"But if the government would get out of the forced charity business, I believe the church would pick up the slack nicely. "
The Church down here is HURTING. The Catholic church had to consolidate its own services and is unlikely to be able to pick up that slack.

religion not as important as ideology
I would certainly describe myself as an evangelical that didn't support Romney, but that was because in prior campaigns, he tried to run to the left of Ted Kennedy. I didn't support Huckabee until it was down to Huckabee and McCain, and still won't vote for McCain.

You are correct that some wouldn't vote for Romney because of his religion, but I don't believe that it was a significant number.

Greyhawk
Thank you for your comments.

I responded to MikeB about the ability of our Lord to be anywhere He so desired, but it somehow didn't make the cut.

Religion generally shouldn't play a part in politics. If a persons religion helps them to be a better spouse, parent, child, patriot etc... then we should be supportive of that. It seems to me that this is true in the life of Jindal and I know it is true in the life of Romney.

Rob
You stated that LDS missionaries would take advantage of an LDS president.

Nothing could be further from the truth. If you go to a church where politics are preached from the pulpit, I suppose it is hard to fathom, but the LDS church vehemently opposes promoting any candidate. In October this year a letter from the first presidency of the church will be read from the pulpit. This letter will encourage people to be involved in our communities and the electoral process. It will tell people to vote THEIR CONSCIENCES. It will not tell people how to vote or who to vote for. It has always been this way and will continue to be so.

Reply: cherylb
"Oh, please .. the Catholic Church is not stomping on any heads today! And, this is America, not Rome."

You are certainly correct. But the Catholic church looks to Rome and the pope. I am not looking to pick a fight with Catholics, it's just that I am not comfortable with any religion that seeks to inject itself into political affairs. The Catholic church has a long history of that although not in real recent times. However, watching the former and current Presidents of our country kneeling before the pope as I have seen happen make me uneasy. Now this governor is probably a decent person and I might even vote for him given the opportunity and right circumstances if he truly believes in limited government which I doubt.

Evangelicals that seek to use the government to create legislation criminalizing peoples' bad habits I also have a real problem with.

I would even vote for an atheist if it was apparant the person had a good set of principles they lived by and wouldn't try to force their views on others.

Keep religion and politics separate. I just want a government that actually obeys the constitution for once.

Bobby Jindal
Is an exciting conservative. I think he and Gov. Palin of Alaska are wonderful fresh faces, and both seem to be strong conservatives.

I don't care that Jindal is a Catholic. I'd probably vote for him even if he was a Hindu. I didn't care that Romney was a Mormon.

I think the key is that whoever is elected President understands the Constitution and supports the rights of people of faith.

Hurricane B - West 'by God' Virginia
I support separation of church and state. And, I too, long for constitutional, limited government. It bothers me less that Bush knelt before the Pope, than when he held hands with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. But, I realize the Pope and Prince Abdullah represent different cultures than our own, and that political leaders must show respect to gain respect (to a reasonable point, of course), and to keep communication open for the benefit of us all.

We're all keeping an eye on Governor Jindal. So far, he's doing a good job. I truly believe he's one of those rare men who get into politics to try and do some good. He's a natural leader. He's a straight shooter. Presently, I don't have any doubts about Jindal. We will see. Time will tell.

The Catholic Issue
Some find it a bit disconcerting that we have had 10 Supreme Court justices in our nation's history and that five of them are sitting on the present court. My numbers may be off by one but no more than that. Opus Dei of the Roman Catholic Church has had a great role in placing Roman Catholics in public office. Consider also that the present pope once headed the agency which was once the headquarters for the Inquisition.

There are some who are more concerned about the heaven or hell issue than they are about immigration or taxes. While I don't like the size of government, neither do I like the influence do I like the influence of an idolatrous pope in the affairs of the United States.

Response to Buck:
I regret being characterized as Anti-Catholic. I would prefer to be characterized as a Christian of the Reformed Faith. Some of us are Baptist; some of us are Presbyterian, and many are non-denominational. Nevertheless, many of our brethren were tortured and burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church over a 400 year period. In fact, history proves that more professing Christians died at the hands of Catholics than all the victims of poor victims of Hitler. That my friend is history. It is not politically correct, but it is nevertheless the truth.

rehashing past wrongs
George, I'm reformed - in a PCA church as well. Remembering what our predecessors did to each other hundreds of years ago is irrelevant to this discussion. plenty of Catholics were killed in the name of the reformation as well. Also, the current pope had nothing to do with the inquisition, so what's the point of bringing that up?

I have a lot of theological problems with Catholics, including their idolatry concerning Mary and the supposedly special "Saints", but consider them political allies.

I have even more problems with Mormons, but voted for Romney in the primary in an attempt to stop McCain.

The road you're going down is the same one that leads to reparations for slavery by people who don't own slaves and have received no benefit from anyone who did own slaves.

If the only four reliable conservatives on the SCOTUS are all Catholic, and rule by the constitution, great! What's the problem? I'd rather have them than Ginsburg, appointed by a so-called Southern Baptist.

Quetzalcoatl
Is a terrible excuse for Mormons to use. Its quite racist and uneducated as well, the Aztecs mythology about a "great white god" to their bloody pagan religion. Secondly the feathered serpent god is present even in the Olmec period of about 500BC, the term great white god only became preasent later on with their creating a second, Tezcatlipoca the "black god" The theory that Cortez was a great white "god" only became common over 50 years later from secondary sources none of which seem to derive from eye witnesses.
To claim that Jesus and some random pagan deity are the same because their both white (Jesus wasn't white) is preposterous inane and grasping at straws. If you study Archeology and Mythology you see large patterns in human created deities. The Meso American gods are quite standard.

MikeB
The point is that Jesus can go anywhere He darn well pleases!! To say that it is quite impossible for the Lord to visit pre Columbian America is just rediculous.
Jesus would most certanly have seemed white to the native peoples, just as Cortez seemed to be.

More importantly, with Ahmadinejad stating that the U.S. is satanic and must fall, we must pull together as conservatives and as a country.
I try to be optimistic about the future of our country, but with the extreme level of infighting even among conservatives I just don't know what will happen.

Civil War, perhaps?

Conservative Jews, Muslims, Fundamentalists, LDS etc... should not be concerned about the peculiarities of one anothers religion. We should be allies against a much greater enemy.

Just my opinion.

spelling
*ridiculous

Quetzalcoatl pt 2
I never said he couldn't, I said that Quetzalcoatl being a snake god from over 500 BC, and Jesus having a skin tone comparable with Saudi Arabians today (being closer blood related to Meso American Indians then to White Europeans albeit Moor based Spanish discounting the possible slight Caucasian influence.)

I DOUBT that somehow he became a feathered snake over 500 years before his birth in Judea just so he could show up later (again as a snake) and change his natural skin color to Caucasian. I have no problem with you believing what ever you want, I suggest you leave Quetzalcoatl out of it. Someone brought it up they mentioned my name so I presented some evidence on the subject.

If you want to say beyond all reason I believe it happened then good for you, but if you were convinced that Quetzalcoatl was Jesus or that he brought them corn (we can go into the history of corn and its migration patterns as civilization shifted) or that Jesus was a blond... I'm going to have to disagree. I will tell you my reasons for disagreeing, If you have some evidence for what is a historical question which is quite beyond the realm of religion then we can discuss it.

But when you defend religion from a historical point you should be prepared to back it up. I can not prove the creation of the world, but I can go into a long discussion on string theory supporting my view.

What about Reagan?
Austin has forgotten that evangelical Christians supported Reagan (and Bush I), neither of whom were evangelical themselves. Romney was a great candidate on paper but couldn't connect with the voters - he sounded too much like a business guy. He also spent a lot of money attacking his fellow Republicans which bothered some people. I don't think the Mormon issue would have become an issue if people liked Romney more.

Rising Star
Bobby Jindal is definitely the rising star for conservatives. It's a shame he wasn't elected Gov. in 2002 instead of Blank-O, but he went on to Congress. I think he'd be a great VP now and presidential candidate in 2012, but he made a commitment to the people of La. and I'm not at all surprised that he is honoring that commitment. He's the first possible contender that I've believed in since Reagan, and if he runs, I'll be among the first to sign up to work on his campaign here in TX. He's brilliant, he's ethical, and I think he'd make a great president! He's got my vote!
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