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Sunday, March 16, 2008
Austin Hill :: Townhall.com Columnist
Marxism, American Christians, And Election 2008
by Austin Hill
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Barack Obama has a controversial relationship with a Pastor.

I am not here referring to Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Obama has fallen under harsh scrutiny because of the actions of his own Pastor, and this has become quite widely known within the last week.

But Mr. Obama has also had at least some sort of “connection” with a Pastor of a different church, and the very fact that this “connection” exists has implications for the next election.

Pastor Rick Warren heads up the popular “Saddleback Church” in suburban Orange County, California (it’s name comes from the nearby Saddleback Mountain range). A trend setting institution within the Evangelical “mega church” movement, the congregation makes up the largest church in California, and the fourth largest church in the United States.

Yet Pastor Warren’s influence reaches far beyond his own, local pulpit. Widely known for publishing “The Purpose Driven Life” book earlier this decade (a New York Times’ bestseller), Warren’s pastoral advice has impacted untold numbers worldwide. And Warren’s influence among Evangelical clergy has been steadily building for at least the past two decades, reaching a high point with the publishing of “The Purpose Driven Church” book back in the mid-90’s.

To his credit, Warren has tried to compel Evangelicals (and thoughtful Christians of all sorts) to engage on a wider array of social and cultural concerns - - caring for the poor, fighting disease in the third world, and, yes, a proper care of the environment. In so doing, Warren has expanded upon the accomplishments of the older Evangelical activists who have over the past three decades narrowly defined their efforts as comprising the “pro-family movement” - - a movement dedicated to protecting the life of the unborn child, and the historic definition of marriage.

And this is where Obama comes in. In November and December of 2006, Saddleback Church hosted the 2nd annual “Global Summit On AIDS and the Church,” and Senator Obama, along with Senator Sam Brownback, were two of the more high-profile speakers at the event. At the time, Warren was harshly criticized by other Evangelical leaders for having invited the staunchly pro-abortion Obama. Warren’s response? "Jesus loved and accepted others without approving of everything they did” he told his detractors. “That's our position too, but it upsets a lot of people, so we get attacked from both sides."

The Evangelical reaction to Obama was predictable, and Warren’s pursuit of “unity” and “bi-partisanship” was commendable. But if Obama’s stance on abortion is troublesome for Evangelicals, why wouldn’t his stance on a variety of other policy issues - - and in particular, economic issues - - be equally as troubling?

And the controversy doesn’t begin and end with Obama. Former First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton has spoken at Saddleback Church as well, and while she is also criticized by the Evangelical brethren for her stance on abortion, rarely if ever is there an Evangelical critique of her economic policies.

So let’s be clear about what’s at stake: Obama and Clinton are both advancing economic ideas that are essentially Marxist in their nature. They both have proposed radical new levels of taxation for Americans whom they believe possess “too much” wealth, and unprecedented new levels of governmental intervention and regulation with American enterprise so as to “fix” our nation’s problems with healthcare, energy, and the environment.

This reality poses a dramatic challenge for American Christians. While churches of all sorts are quick to embrace the wealthy when it is time to take up a collection, Christian clergy and the “pro family” activists have virtually nothing to say about the virtues of wealth creation, and the kind of economic environment that fosters prosperity. This ambivalence towards economic paradigms - - which is at its core a failure to adequately understand economics as a “moral issue” - - leads people to attach their best humanitarian intentions to flawed and dangerous economic ideas.

So while Warren and other Evangelicals awaken to a broader realm of social concerns (which is in itself a good thing), all American Christians should keep in mind these core realities: the Bible itself (both Old and New Testaments) presupposes that it is quite a natural thing for private citizens to own the means of economic production (land and other resources); and that it is okay for individuals to create wealth for themselves and their families; and that private citizens should care for the needy of society, rather than abdicating this responsibility to “the government.” From this foundation, we can then envision the private sector doing a much better job with the pressing domestic issues of our time - - healthcare, environmental stewardship, and energy independence.

To put it more succinctly, there is nothing “moral” about Obama’s plan to tax capital (not just earnings or profits or interest income, but, yes, he wants to now tax money in the bank), and there is no virtue in Hillary’s proposed governmental take-over of the automotive industry. Humanitarian intentions must be attached to sound economic principles - - and there is no “justice” in abusing the nation’s wealth producers, or in strangling the national economy.

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About The Author
Austin Hill is a Talk Show Host At Boise, Idaho's 580 KIDO Radio, and a frequent Guest Host on the Fox Newstalk Radio Network. He is the Author of "White House Confidential: The Little Book Of Weird Presidential History," And Co-Author of the forthcoming title "The Virtues Of Capitalism: A Moral Case For Free Markets" (Northfield/Moody Press, 2010).
 
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Capitalism and Evangelicals
Sir, I suggest you look at the attitudes and actions of certain liberal Catholic churches. I know from experience that they ignore the abortion issue, and hold attitudes that reflect those of the democratic party whether it comes to immigration, economics, defense, or lifting up the lower classes from poverty. There is a strong socialist streak in my beloved church, as well as a desire of liberal Catholics to ignore the issues of sexual morality.


It is for the CHURCH
to care for 'widows and children and the poor'....NOT GOVERNMENT.

THAT is what Churches should be advocating.

~No Food for OIL

Careful your compare
It's easy to attribute "good works" to someone when attempting to justify bad behavior on it's opposite end as though it is a credential.


The BTK serial strangler was a member of his church for 30 years and an elected president of the congregation council, a cub scout leader, a neighborhood watch type leader, a military man, known as a conservative, worked in home security... we could go on and on.

Pointing to good behavior to absolve bad behavior isn't an argument, it's barely an observation.

Holding individual's accountable for their actions is what is most responsible.

Racism from blacks is ubiquitous in our society and Wright's videos prove it. It's not some "youth on a bad path from decades ago" type situation - it's here, it's now, it's recent and prolonged over decades.

Warren is no better under such scrutiny with any speech which shows contempt, hate or is designed to castigate others who don't fit their religious model and narrow philosophy of life.

These reasons and more, above all else, are why our secular society needs to enforce greater pressure on politicians to get religion out of politics and our elections.

It's a disease that is thwarting this nation's progress toward intellectual advancement at the cost of our freedom.

Puritans don't have a majority in this nation any longer for a very good reason, they were long ago left to the dung heap of stupidity where they should remain along with religion itself if people cannot learn to keep it to themselves and private.

Thanks, Austin
It is good to hear pointed out once again that the liberal elite base their viewpoints (and have for a century or more) on the tenets that turned Russia into the largest of the third world countries, those of Karl Marx. Wealth redistribution is as central to his teaching as the abolition of private property (which modern liberals are happy to merely control through institutions like California's Coastal Commission) and class warfare (the principle that various groups of people are downtrodden by others and should hate each other as a result - central to modern civil rights discussion among the likes of Farrakahn and Jackson). I have never quite understood the correlation between Marxism (or Elitism) and the church, if only because Marx considered religion to be the the sigh of the oppressed and an opiate.

The problem is that having overcome Soviet-style communism, Americans have (since the 1920's) often been its loudest proponents. I do wonder what has failed in our educational institutions that we don't even recognize that.

Obama is unfit to be president
It should be said that Obama is unfit to be President as a result of these revelations.

A man who is asking us to trust him with this nation has knowingly participated in a church over some 20 years+ of disgusting Anti-American swill, by which he expects us to believe during which he only recently heard such vitriol.

This type of American Hatred cannot be rewarded with the highest office in the land.

He needs to step down now and be held accountable.

So which party supports wealth creation?
I found myself at a conference at Colgate University a couple of years ago. In one evening discussion, an american who is a professor at the University of Leipzig spent a fair bit of time discussing his opinions of the current administration and the actions of the US military, which he confounded. At one point, he prefaced a comment with "Of course I have no idea what I'm talking about, but...". I commented that I was glad that he mentioned that small caveat. He didn't finish the sentence.

Everyone's an expert, especially on that concerning which they have no knowledge. Welcome to America.

As you may guess, there were a number of fairly liberal agendas in play. I commented to the assistant dean of the university that "Attila the Hun was a liberal". Thinking about it later on, I decided that I could back that up with incontrovertible facts: he was interested in changing government from its current form to another, he was interested in economic control, he was interested in redistribution of wealth, and he was interested in acquisition and exercise of power. He displayed all of the key characteristics of the liberal agenda.

The problem is, of course, that this also describes the Republican party... "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs!" (Marx, 1874) is pretty good description of the basis of American tax law, and the basis that Republicans used to espouse ("when your checkbook ink is red, stop writing checks") isn't heard very widely nowadays.

Utter apostasy of the "church."
Obama's confiscatory taxation is simply a form of mega theft and for purely political reasons (vote buying). Theft, mega or otherwise, is certainly contrary to the moral philosophy of the New Testament, and should expose Obama for the pagan he truly is. Hillary's plan to let the government own and run the automobile industry is pure pagan faschism not unlike that of Benito's WWII Italy. Fashism does not work any better than communism, liberalism or socialism because all four are founded on a supremely anti-biblical view of mankind as intrinsically virtuous.

As a Christian theologian, I cannot imagine how any congregation or pastor so thoroughly blind to moral reality as to invite Clinton and Obama to speak in their facility can still make claims to having anything whatsoever to do with the most profound principles of New Testament Christianity. The apostasy of that bogus "church" is now complete and only awaits destruction at the hands of an angry God.

Wakeup Call

This is another well written article highlighting the pitfalls of a democratic dominated congress and Whitehouse. This and similar essays should get the attention of those Republican voters who adhere to the no-vote strategy in this general election.

This isn’t past politics…it’s a new game in the 21st century. Our government is straddling the socialist fence. If you don’t think so, then go to sleep. When you wakeup ready for the 2012 fight, you’re going to find yourself in the United States of Europe.


Saul WHO ?? Antonio WHO ?? (Ask H&B)
If you want to discover both Hillary Clinton's and Barak Obama's deepest ideological roots, simply Google each of their names with those of Saul Alinsky and Antonio Gramsci -- and their infamous "March Through The Institutions" modus operandi for assuming control of one and all ("one" meaning you and "all" meaning everyone and every thing else, as well).

fredsba
that was about as incoherent as anything I've ever read.

Tripe.

Colin
Your comments are interesting, however, your final paragraph has an assumption of knowledge that you hold regarding your religious philosophy over others whom you critique.

No one religious philosophy is correct as none of them are and your stance is of an opposite position.

If you are blinded by your religious philosophy from which all narrow points of view are filtered, you do yourself an injustice in facing reality and thus having credibility toward the critique of others religious narrow selective subjective philosophy.

INTHENOW
"those Republican voters who adhere to the no-vote strategy in this general election."

A very good statement of holding others accountable for any future demise for which their personal vote may have subverted; congrats on your courage, I stand and support you.

If to abstain from voting is to punish, then certainly it may do so; however, to inject shared suffering as a result of individual victimization appears rather sick and diseased.

No large fan of McCain, I still plan on voting for him in opposition to my country of origin being run by socialist liberal fascists.

Warren a Publicity Whore Sell-out
Rick Warren is the consummate phony. This guy has demonstated repeatedly that he lusts for fame and media fawning above all else and is willing to abandon the defense of the unborn in order to advance his public persona. Every time he collaborates with the ilk of Clinton and Obama he puts a face of legitimacy on abortion for America's impressionable youth. He should be roundly condemned by not only Christians but all who believe that the protection of life is more important than reaching across the aisle. Obama just jetisoned Jeremiah Wright, so perhaps Warren can become Obama's new "spiritual mentor."

Chuck
"he puts a face of legitimacy on abortion for America's impressionable youth"

At this time it is a legitimate form of pregnancy cessation. I hope our youth are impressed by this option so as to make informed decisions of how they treat their bodies, the responsibilities of sex and the long-term consequences of ignoring these realities.

Our society can stand on the soapbox of sanctimony about individual morality and attempt to impose it on others, but we do nothing to advance the discouragement of such practices except through genuine and thorough education, not fear and intimidation tactics.

Additionally, giving way to as many other forms of alternatives will be the greatest opportunity for driving this choice down.

Unfortunately, subjective moralizing of RU486 and other potential options seems more important to the religious than actually finding viable alternatives that women want.

Chuck has it about right
One media whore inviting another whore to speak at his church becomes a orgy of self-love and promotion.

My church has been expanding and reaching out also, but not because my pastor preaches to the gimme, gimme/grabby baby/it's all about me crowd like Warren, but because he sticks to the Good News - that Jesus defeated death, paid for our sins, and reconciled us to God.

The author and recovering politician, Joel Rosenberg, has visited our church multiple times in the past few months, with little fanfare or celebration. A completed Jew, he has used his huge success and fortune to help form the Joshua Fund - a non-profit involved in providing school children all over the Middle East with food, clothing, school supplies and the Gospel of Jesus Christ if they are hungry for it. Israelis aren't especially, but Arabs are and the explosion of Christianity in Iraq and Iran is unprecedented in history.

Mr. Rosenberg has recently returned from 9 days in Mesopotamia, visiting Nineveh, Babylon, and the outskirts of Bagdad where he fellowshipped with former jihadists, Saddam loyalists, and insurgents, sharing the Good News with people who are literally starving for physical and spiritual food. One after another, people approached him and related how through dreams and visions they have found peace in Christ Jesus. Joel returns to Bagdad this week for a meeting with Iraq's president who welcomes any source of benefit to his country.

Imagine? Arabs happily embracing a Jew. Hatred being replaced by love - what a concept. No wonder liberals never get it - they prefer hate.

Scooternyc

"If to abstain from voting is to punish, then certainly it may do so; however, to inject shared suffering as a result of individual victimization appears rather sick and diseased."

Well put! The popular countering mantra to your statement goes something like this: “I won’t comprise my principles by voting for McCain.” Which of course is exactly what happens by allowing an ultra left-wing thinker to occupy the ultimate position of power.

Many tired axioms flood my cranium, but “throwing the baby out with the bathwater” seems most apropos.


ScooterNYC writes:
At this time it is a legitimate form of pregnancy cessation. I hope our youth are impressed by this option so as to make informed decisions of how they treat their bodies, the responsibilities of sex and the long-term consequences of ignoring these realities.

I have problems with that statement. It suggests
1) making informed decisions on how to treat their bodies.
2) the responsibilities of sex.

First, it ignores the baby that is murdered through abortion entirely.
Secondly to suggest there is any responsibility whatsoever is loony.
People have a responsibility to avoid pregnancy if they don't want to get pregnant. If they are not responsible, they have a legitimate way to avoid that responsiblity with an abortion, the murder of the unwanted child.

Making informed decisions should also include that you are talking about killing a human being. An innocent child. But the pro-choice lobby tries to focus on your own body when in fact, the baby is NOT part of a woman's body, but a unique, complete and separate human being.

Abortion = irresponsibility.
Abortion = murder.
Abortion = selfishness.

The Pro-choice lobby goes out of its way to prevent pregant people from making informed choices about the baby they carry.

Self Destructive
Page after page in History show the fact that humans are self destructive, often their own worst enemy. If the voters elect a radical who ignores Amereican motal values, so be it. they will have to lay in the bed they made until even that bed is destroyed.

Warren Bad News for Southern Baptists
Chuck,

I cannot agree with you more. I have watched the effects of Warren indirectly by our church adopting much of his "Purpose Driven" nonsense.

To make a long story short, our church has dropped in membership and continues to do so. Warren's model is not effective even in his own church. Although, he may have a membership of some 30,000, the church's regular attendance is roughly 10,000. Yes, that is a big number, but when looks at it in the totality of membership, Warren's church is doing a poor job of making disciples when only a third of its church shows up each week. And we call this guy a "church growth guru."

There is much wrong with the "Purpose Driven" model. Few realize that it was initially designed using retail models to bring customers into stores.

I could go on, but the point is Warren just like Obama's pastor, Wright, is bad news. Sadly, Warren's impact on the Southern Baptist Convention cannot be underestimated. I highly doubt without Warren's influence, the church would have just declared its support of global warming while publicly admitting that it doesn't know the whole truth about the subject. This from a denomination that has consistently preached on basing its judgements on truth.

Obama, Clinton or McCain
What a dismal selection to choose from to lead the Christian West.

GAHOTDOG....
Great system,huh!?? Maybe we should just play "spin the bottle"?
Read the article by mr chapman....on fiscal conservative candidates? I talk about the only true candidate...hopefully you will agree..you may be surprised !!
elvis

Marxism, Amcerican Christians, and 2008
Mr. Austin's article barely nibbles at the edges of Marxism in our churches and society, and does not touch Obama and Marxism.

Marxism's most prominent and corrosive influence in american society today is embodied in two concepts and programs Mao undertook in China in the 1960s. He wanted to eliminate the history and last vestiges of chinese culture which existed before the commie takeover in 1949. He created a movement and called it "The Cultural Revolution", and its major was "political correctness". POlitical Correctness is simply deciding what will be the "official" opinionsof governemnt and society. "Unpopular" facts and truths were ignored and banished from public discourse, media, and history.

"Cultural Cleansing" was the order of the day, and property was destroyed, buildings demolished, ideas banished, free expression of speech and ideas which might be "hurtful" to others or not officially recognised was forbidden, and people were sometimes sent to prison, re-education camps, or even executed.

The Cultural Revolution and Political Correctness came to this country in the 1980s. Schools have dispensed with history, for the most part. Marx said that if you want to change society, separate a people from its history. We don't have "re-education" camps, but we have public schools, and we have "diversity training" in business and government for people with "incorrect opinions".

One of the clearest examples of Marxism at work occurred before the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, when the 26 year old "Cultural Officer" of the City of Atlanta told the LA Times, "The Atlanta Games will have no Old South presense. The Old South never existed." As pure example of Marxism as I have heard. And many churhes, including evangelical one, are promoting marxist practices every day.


Real churches vs TV/media churches
Those of us who are old enough remember Jim Bakker in his heyday selling TV memberships in his Christian amusement park. Rick Warren and Joel Osteen and others are a far cry from the pastors who serve everyday churches that most of us attend. They are like Jim Bakker. They are the TV pastors, the media gurus who attempt to bring Christianity to the masses.

But in fact, what they bring is self-focused entertainment, not the word of God -- how to feel good about yourself and your life, how to ensure that good things and prosperity befall you. It's pablum. Real Christianity is about service to God and to our fellow men and women. Jesus Christ was about service. He embodied and manifested everything that we should do with and for each other. He wasn't too concerned with how to guarantee a life of prosperity and having what you want.

Hill is correct, of course. Clinton and Obama embrace Marxism and want to speedily take America in that direction. But the politicians use "pastors," just like the "pastors" use politicians. Politics as usual, business as usual. And then way off to one side, people who take the real word of God seriously are going about their business, their business being some kind of service to one another. This has nothing to do with politics or with TV.

The Selection Will Not Matter.
For a number of years I believed our course to oblivion was set during the 30s when the power of the federal government increased to the point that we were told what crops we were 'allowed' to plant. I am now of the opinion the real point of no return was in the 1860s when Lincoln denied Southern states the right to disassociate themselves form the Union.

We are in the downward spiral in a cycle that has occured over and over as people struggle for their freedom only to see it frittered away in a quest for protection from the responsibility for maintaining their own existences. There is no protection. There is either freedom or slavery. We surrender our freedoms in the pursuit of security. We listen to the snake oil salesmen promise us utopia. We wake up one day and realize we do not own ourselves.

What happens then? The tree must be watered.

Abortion on demand
That so many Americans condone abortion-on-demand is indicative of a society bent on self-destruction. Technically, abortion is not "murder" inasmuch as the courts have made it "legal". Our American society suffered a devastating blow when a divided Supreme Court "legislated" a newly found right, that of destroying humans in the early stages of development. We will rue the day weak jurists succumbed to the rantings of unhappy people and profit-seekers of the medical field. By their ruling, seven white men of the court empowered the legislative branch of our government to levy taxes on ALL citizens for the purpose of raising money to pay so-called doctors to kill the children of the poor, children who are living but who are not yet born. That the rich pay for their own abortions does not make it right.

Austin
"So let’s be clear about what’s at stake: Obama and Clinton are both advancing economic ideas that are essentially Marxist in their nature."

Really???? They advocate that the state owns all property??? Show me where that is. You fundamentalist conservatives try and change meanings of words but you know a lie is a lie and lies seem to roll all to easy out of you and your associates mouths and keyboards.

"They both have proposed radical new levels of taxation for Americans ...."

Oh please show me how radical and new they are? What is radical and new is the degree of cuts....

"new levels of governmental intervention and regulation with American enterprise "

New??? Heck don't even go there.. the Bush Regime's lack of competence created poisoned toys, poisoned food and the illegal immigrant challenge all with the blessing of hypocrites like you and your ilk. Restoring government oversight and enforcement is not NEW

Delcy
"Abortion on demand
That so many Americans condone abortion-on-demand is indicative of a society bent on self-destruction."

Not all of us share your belief that every sperm is sacred and most Americans do not share your "theory" that a zygote is the same as a live human.

scooternyc
What is wrong with Islam?

Jeff
this technique is just in retail, my husband was in manufacturing management in the latter half of his career. His company hired on a consultant
(read carpetbagger) who introduced all that team work malarkey and my husband lost his job because
he stood in the way. Upshot of story, carpetbagger got husbands job, office and bigger salary on the promise of millions in profits.
Hubby went on to create competition, company lost
instead and carpetbagger was fired and went on to destroy other businesses. It's really collectivism. Warren is using that same pattern for the church and as you mentioned, like businesses around the country, is losing.
Warren's program works when ears only want tickling.
The American Church would grow if it dumped
the tax exemption. Its serving two masters, it's given government control over it's pulpits.
It trusts government to meet its needs rather than God, until it finally wises up and returns to its historic place of influencing/teaching
American christians their historic place in our government and society our country will continue to spiral down.

Where's the Marxism?
Marx wasn't interested in high taxes on the rich, which would necessitate preserving and encouraging them so they could be farmed; he was interested in socialism and communism, that is, the workers owning the means of production and the elimination of the rich (or at least of their ownership of riches).

As for the Bible, there are all sorts of restrictions and redistributions of wealth in the Old Testament, and the New Testament is practically an anarchist tract. Seems to me a little leftish cutting-up on the part of one Evangelical organization is only to be expected; actually, I'm surprised there is not a lot more.

Hal Donahue writes:
**Not all of us share your belief that every sperm is sacred and most Americans do not share your "theory" that a zygote is the same as a live human.**

This is possibly the WORST argument the Pro-Death lobby spouts. Even the most hardened pro-abortionist will admit that "zygote" is a human in the making. You have to be brain dead to say what you just said. When those first two cells unite, the child becomes human. That it's incapable of sustaining itself at that moment is not an argument. Show me one newborn that can wiggle it's way to it's mother's breast without help. Show me one newborn that can get up and go to the refrigerator for it's bottle.

Grow up and say what you mean. You are so selfish and self absorbed that you want to feel good about doing away with your "mistakes." You want to do away with your responsibility. That's the truth of the matter. Pathetic.

Hal
I usually don't comment on your mostly inane and ranting posts, but for your scientific edification, a human zygote, while not a fully mature human, is HUMAN life.
And that is a FACT, not a theory.
But it appears from your post that you don't appear to know the difference.

Thanks Mr. Hill
Mr. Hill is right when exposed the flaws in the policies of Clinton and Obama.

I watched in my homeland Cuba what impact has these polices, what brought to Cuba was misery, hunger and lost of freedom. We most watch out for what they stand, it may hurts this country for many years.

We have many cases as The Union Soviet, China, North Korea, the two first has changed the laws to be more flexible with the economy and they obtained benefits, as the one that do not do that as North Korea and Cuba.

When the government tries to manipulate, the natural tendency of the market, the effect is that every institution collapse. It could we healthcare or any other imposition.

The most recent case is Venezuela that has implanted this measure and the consequences are the same when they were implanted in The Union Soviet, China, North Korea and Cuba.

We most think before we vote in this election. Sadly the choices we have are not good.


islam
what is wrong with islam is that it promotes and advocates intolerance to the point of demanding that those that do not subscribe to it be killed.

IdahoGal
"... Even the most hardened pro-abortionist will admit that "zygote" is a human in the making. You have to be brain dead to say what you just said. When those first two cells unite, the child becomes human. That it's incapable of sustaining itself at that moment is not an argument. Show me one newborn that can wiggle it's way to it's mother's breast without help. Show me one newborn that can get up and go to the refrigerator for it's bottle. "

I said the same as a fully borne alive human. What percentage of pregnancies end in spontanious abortions?

"You want to do away with your responsibility. That's the truth of the matter. Pathetic. "

Actually it isn't at all but to value a fertilised as much as a walking, crawling around human is nonsense. But argue away. The real question is "marxism" and that has ZERO to do with Obama or Hillary

Sitting in a garage doesn't make one
a car!

I am not familiar with the preacher mentioned in the article, but there are many people who insinuate their way into the church for the express purpose of changing the theology.

Often these people pretend to believe just as the rest of the church does, and then later show their true colors, once they have established power.

While it is possible that this preacher is a "useful idiot," it is also possible he is a "stealth preacher."

Austin Hill
Quote:
"there is nothing “moral” about Obama’s plan to tax capital"

So in other words, it IS "moral" to run a budget deficit and BORROW the difference.

How is it different to use taxes to pay for government services than to borrow the money (from China and others) to pay for them? I'll tell you: Those who advocate that taxes = spending are more fiscally responsible. If we can't curb the spending, then we should pay for it as we go. I'm sure our grandchildren would appreciate that.

Morality indeed.

The Stealth O-bomb-er

Barak Obama is a stealth candidate, pretending to be a moderate, when he is actually a radical, America-hating Marxist.

I am sure it is distressing to him that these radical America-hating and white-hating views held by his church have come out before he finished sewing up the nomination for his party.

His weak excuse, that he never heard the preacher say these things, is simply not believable.

He sat in the church for 20+ years. What was he doing there: sleeping?

The statements by the pastor were met by the congregation by loud approval and applause, indicating that the majority of the congregation are America-hating racists.

If I attended a church where the preacher spewed such hate, in such a nasty, angry tone of voice, I would be shocked, and never go back again. I would certainly not have the man marry me and baptise my children, for heaven's sake.

The kind of church I go to, the pastor expounds on scripture, line by line and word by word, informing the congregation about the nuanced meaning in the original language. Then there is a call to action, to apply the scriptures to ones own life.

But never once have I heard a true pastor speak in such nasty terms, or with such vehemance.

Dreamer- raising taxes when the
economy sucks is one of the downfalls of the Left, and why they fail to hold power for long.

They are the ones that want to promise everyone the moon, and never explain how they are going to get the money. Then they reach deeper and deeper into my pockets.

An example is going on in the City of Los Angeles at this very moment.

They over committed themselves to expensive projects during the boom we recently, and with the recent downturn in the economy, they are not able to meet their commitments.

They asked city workers to help out by taking unpaid vacations, but the lefties refused.

So they are faced with laying off employees, and closing schools. The teachers union is refusing to cooperate, believing that they deserve to ride high on the hog while the taxpayers who pay their salaries are tightening their belts.

So I have to ask, who are the real greedy ones?

The Lefties who demand more and more, of course.

Boundaries and Division of Labor
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't get it. They do not understand boundaries or limits to what government can and should do and they don't understand the idea of dividing labor so that the government governs and charities (religious or secular) take care of people.

A couple of years ago a legislator in our state proposed a law mandating "healthy" snacks in vending machines located in schools. I pointed out this was bad state law since school boards, school administrators and parents already have jurisdiction and responsibility for what's on school premises and what students eat. After I said this in a speech a woman responded, "but children shouldn't eat junk food."

No, they don't get it.

Michael Brown
Briefly, in response to your comment on my own post, I would suggest perhaps some biology books on the actual development of a fetus.

The blastocyst is not a child, in fact, it's about 150,000 cells.

I don't expect you to dismiss your religious narrow philosophical view of life rooted in only one religion, of which there are many, and of which, none have proof of the so called existence of the god they claim deems all things good or bad, right or wrong.

I would expect that you would have educated yourself more highly in science to understand the difference between a fetus, a blastocyst and a child that actually exists outside of a female.

Marxism
"Obama and Clinton are both advancing economic ideas that are essentially Marxist in their nature."

And the current administration is any different?

Did you hear about the $200 billion taxpayer funded handout to the Bear Stearns investment company? I hope the company's executives don't have to give up their Manhattan penthouses or corporate jets. Too bad small government and free markets were not subjected upon these people.

Mountain Rose/Dreamer
"raising taxes when the
economy sucks is one of the downfalls of the Left, and why they fail to hold power for long."

It is as bad or worse than deficit spending and pumping money into a growing economy.

"They are the ones that want to promise everyone the moon, and never explain how they are going to get the money. Then they reach deeper and deeper into my pockets."

That is an extreme but you folks at your median used what the people had built and did not replace or develop it - deadbeats

"...So I have to ask, who are the real greedy ones?"

The ones who did not plan or pay for what they had. You want to penalise workers only? Nice you get the gain and they pay - deadbeat


Mountain Rose
I am not advocating anything "Rightie" or "Leftie". Both parties have the idea that spend, spend, spend is the best idea. I think we all can agree that overspending is THE problem. So of course the idea is to curtail the spending. However, neither side is inclined to do so. So the question is shall we pay for it with taxes or should we borrow it?

Quote:
"Raising taxes when the economy sucks is the downfall of the Left"

The reason for that is we have been convinced by both sides that we can overspend as much as we want and there are no consequences for it. Sure, the National Debt will continue to increase, but so what? Sure, we will eventually reach the point where all of our taxes paid will not pay for the interest on the National Debt, but so what? Let's just keep borrowing.

My point has more to do with Fiscal Responsibility than with political parties.

Robert E Lee
Sir, no one can save you from the reality of life. Your decision to delude yourself to believe in something for which you have no evidence and in fact, all evidence to the notion of existence, is your own making.

No intelligent person would take a challenge to prove a negative, as you've proposed.

No intelligent person cares about your delusional values by which to live your own personal life. It's the lives of others that you can't seem to keep your hands off of, so to speak, when it comes to pandering this religious swill to the American people.

Keep your religion to yourself and private - but you won't. As such, then this "belief system" you have acquired, either through indoctrination or an emotional shift in your life, neither of which are satisfactory in credentials, continues its infection of society.

Prepare yourself, because as the world develops intellectually, less and less people will cower to tripe of religious persuasion.

Cinderella
"Unfortunately, a lot of people don't get it. They do not understand boundaries or limits to what government can and should do and they don't understand the idea of dividing labor so that the government governs and charities (religious or secular) take care of people."

It has not worked very well has it? As a matter of fact vis a vis the rest of the civilised world it appears to have failed miserably

Mr. Brown
"People have a responsibility to avoid pregnancy if they don't want to get pregnant. If they are not responsible, they have a legitimate way to avoid that responsibility with an abortion, the murder of the unwanted child."

I suggest that unless you are willing to take responsibility for the unwanted child then you
should allow others the options by which are available to make their own personal decisions for themselves, to correct it.

While you may not agree with their decisions, you do not have a right to decide their decisions.

Although you think yourself, indeed, self-appointed to make decisions for others, you are not now, never have been and never will be.

In other words, mind your own business.


Hal
Im sorry, Clinton is not a Marxist?


BE VERY AFRAID, I AM.......

1) "We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

2) "It's time for a new beginning, for an end to government of the few, by the few, and for the few..... And to replace it with shared responsibility for shared prosperity."

3) "(We) ....can't just let business as usual go on, and that means something has to be taken away from some people."

4) "We have to build a political consensus and that requires people to giveup a little bit of their own turf in order to create this common ground."

5) "I certainly think the free-market has failed."

6) "I think it's time to send a clear message to what has become the most profitable sector in (the) entire economy that they are being watched."

Now you might think these were the famous words of the Father of communism, Karl Marx.... and you would be on the right track in thinking so, but you would be wrong.... These pearls of socialist/Marxist wisdom are from non other than our very own, home-grown Marxist.....

SCROLL DOWN




Hillary Clinton.....

Comments made on:
(1) 6/29/04
(2) 5/29/07
(3) 6/4/07
(4) 6/4/07
(5) 6/4/07
(6) 9/2/05

Be afraid, Be very afraid! You think health care is expensive now, ..... wait until it is free!

Hal, I got news for you...
You were once a zygote!

Cinderella
"They do not understand boundaries or limits to what government"

Too bad most school districts sign contracts were the vending machines can only sell Coca-Cola, Twinkies, Ring Dings, etc.

And school cafeterias get federal mandates on purchasing bleached, processed wheat, sugar, partially hydrogenated soybean oil and all other taxpayer subsidized foods that legislators in Washington DC have passed with the help of agricultural lobbyists.

LOL!
"dbz77 writes: Sunday, March, 16, 2008 12:13 PM
scooternyc
What is wrong with Islam?"


This actually made me laugh out loud, thanks for still having a sense of humor on Townhall, at least someone does.

Crawfish
"Crawfish writes: Sunday, March, 16, 2008 2:20 PM
Hal, I got news for you...
You were once a zygote!"

Correctamundo! Which then leads to the blastocyst stage.

However, some believe that it's only at the blastocyst stage that "life" actually starts, or so they think.

Bravo!

Hal..Obamas fans?
Do you still need convincing Obama is a marxist?
MANAGUA, Nicaragua: President Daniel Ortega, who led the 1979 revolution in Nicaragua, says Barack Obama's presidential bid is a "revolutionary" phenomenon in the United States.

"It's not to say that there is already a revolution under way in the U.S. ... but yes, they are laying the foundations for a revolutionary change," the Sandinista leader said Wednesday night as he accepted an honorary doctorate from an engineering university.

Ortega led a Soviet-backed government that battled U.S.-supported Contra rebels before he lost power in a 1990 election. He returned to office last year via the ballot bo

Solo610
So if a bad guy says something nice about you, that makes you a Marxist?

Wow. Now I see why rednecks eat their young.


wow dreamer
Way to take that out of context. I just find it interesting that terrorists fully support Obama. You should to. I also find it interesting that you cannot respond to the comments made by Hillary. I guess its easier to ignore facts.


Solo610
It's well known that Communists and Marxists are liars. If Ortega says he wants Obama to win that would mean....

scooternyc...
Thanks.

scooternyc
One should really avoid commenting on matters of which they are demonstrably ignorant.

Beyond giving one the feeling of superiority, it persuades no one.

zapdoodat
It is well know that people in general lie, i assure you that lying is not limited to communists and Marxists. What you should count on is people being held accountable for their words and actions. Those very words and actions are where i derive my opinion about Hillary and Obama.

zapdoodat
There is nothing wrong with taking note of which foreign leaders are supporting who and why. I get the impression that if Iran, Cuba, China, Al-Queda, Syria, or North Korea could choose our president, Obama would be their man.

scooternyc
"as the world develops intellectually..."


LOL. How's that working out?

Solo610
Great, how about holding the present administration to the same standard. What do you think of the $200 billion handout to Wall Street that occurred Friday? Isn't that a Marxist wealth-redistribution scheme from the middle class to the wealthy?

Solo610
writes: Sunday, March, 16, 2008 2:19 PM
Hal
Im sorry, Clinton is not a Marxist? ....Now you might think these were the famous words of the Father of communism, Karl Marx.... and you would be on the right track in thinking so,"

You are very wrong there and clearly do not understand Marxism.... The State owns all. You think all of western Europe is Marxist? If so you are wrong.


"Be afraid, Be very afraid! You think health care is expensive now, ..... wait until it is free! "

You are clearly a deadbeat or enjoy wasting money or paying too much or receiving lower quality....

Crawfish
"You were once a zygote! "

Sure I was so? What is your point?

Wright is Wrong
Wright is Wrong = Many think he is speaking truth and justice and hope for the downtrodden. He is simply making his case that the innocent should pay for the sins of others.

Wright and his "hate speech", which had at the very least the tacit approval of Obama, should be applauded by every Liberal.

Liberals who advocate "stealing" from achievers and giving their ill-gotten gain to non-achievers should be classed as common criminals.

Liberals who bemoan executions of criminals as being cruel and inhumane but advocate drilling a hole in a babys head and sucking out its brains for convenience sake should be classed as common killers.




Liberal Logic
Liberals believe removing fathers from the family so poor women can receive benefits from their liberal programs is a good thing.

Solo610
".. I get the impression that if Iran, Cuba, China, Al-Queda, Syria, or North Korea could choose our president, Obama would be their man. "

Why? Since the Bush Regime's polices supporting torture, capital punishment, violations of human rights etc ranks right there with them and few others, I would think they support Republicans?

Hal Will Never Admit Abortion Is Wrong
For all those well meaning people trying to convince Hal Donahue abortion is wrong, a zygote is a human being, etc. you're just beating your head against the wall. It's easier to put on the moral relativity blinders & explain it away with b.s. than to listen to his conscience. Welcome to the world of a liberal. The world where anything goes, there are no consequences for one's actions, & personal responsibility is a foreign concept. A world where one's own selfish desires are the most important thing in life & nothing else matters but instant personal gratification. For all who value & are thankful for all the blessings God has given them, stay away from liberalism. It takes all the value & happiness out of life.

wildwest
Your entire post was about Ortega saying something nice about Obama. How can my comment be "out of context"?

It is interesting, however as you say. I wouldn't pretend to know what is in Ortega's mind. But regardless, it is hardly an indictment of Obama and his policies. This doesn't even qualify as "guilt by association".

I re-read your post. I still don't see anything about Hillary. I guess I'll continue to "ignore facts".

BTW, an African-American running for president is more or less a revolutionary phenomenon isn't it?

Liberal Education
Liberal education really is forcefeeding bias and distorting reality to what liberals think it should be and not what it is.

Liberals teach deviancy should be regarded as normal behaviour.


What?
You are very wrong there and clearly do not understand Marxism.... The State owns all. You think all of western Europe is Marxist? If so you are wrong."

What do you think Clinton would do? Take what people have earned and redistribute it, "for the good of all". Everyone would have the same everything. Wait, this is starting to sound like a ...classless society. Now where have i heard that before?


"Be afraid, Be very afraid! You think health care is expensive now, ..... wait until it is free! "

You are clearly a deadbeat or enjoy wasting money or paying too much or receiving lower quality....

You are clearly and idiot if you think UHC provides superior health care to the current market. Furthermore, i work for a living and object to paying for the health care of people who choose not to. Forcing me to do so is stealing Hal. Wait wait... whats that i smell? Is it socialism? I believe it is. Facts are ugly things aren't they Hal?

Retired Geek
"Liberals who advocate "stealing" from achievers and giving their ill-gotten gain to non-achievers should be classed as common criminals."

Achievers? Oh ok to heck with the real achievers? soldiers, police, fire, healthcare, teachers...Tell you what geek I'd rather have them at my back than a chickenhearted rightie. You are deadbeats keep taking and give little back

"Liberals who bemoan executions of criminals as being cruel and inhumane but advocate drilling a hole in a babys head and sucking out its brains for convenience sake should be classed as common killers. "

Wait! I thought you were against capital punishment don't you yell about Al Q cutting heads off?

Why Hal?
.. I get the impression that if Iran, Cuba, China, Al-Queda, Syria, or North Korea could choose our president, Obama would be their man. "

Why? Since the Bush Regime's polices supporting torture, capital punishment, violations of human rights etc ranks right there with them and few others, I would think they support Republicans? "

Are you serious? If i was an enemy i would want the leader who would give me the least amount of trouble. Bush is far from perfect, very far. In fact, he does a lot of stupid things. One thing he has not done wrong is take the fight to the enemy. How many attacks have happened on U.S. soil since Sept 11 2001 Hal? Maybe we should just have a big international group hug Hal? Everyone will forgive everyone. Don't worry about that thing poking you in the chest when you embrace your new friends, its just the detonator.

Chickenhearted?
Achievers? Oh ok to heck with the real achievers? soldiers, police, fire, healthcare, teachers...Tell you what geek I'd rather have them at my back than a chickenhearted rightie. You are deadbeats keep taking and give little back"

Wow, 8 years in the Marine Corps now and i get called chickenhearted because i favor policies on the right? Im starting to think you are a troll. You concede nothing, even when clearly defeated. As far as giving back, i assume you give every extra dollar you have to those less fortunate than yourself? Oh wait, you would rather have the government take my money and make me do it. I forgot...

Ken
Here is what I just posted on Colson's blog:

Anne
It isn't me who wants to be in our bedrooms and bodies. I come from a conservative people; we don't want abortion and we are not real "gay friendly" but we will tolerate them far more than the government coming into our homes and bodies. That is what you folks demand and worse yet you demand it in the name of a god that seems FAR from Christian

Liberation Theology
Is nothing but a failed attempt to put Marxist ideology in place of the Gospel of Jesus Christ by making Jesus economic statements the central statement of Christianity.

Which they are not. Christ death and resurrection are the defining, meaningful, events of our faith.

Liberation Theology: Is neither "liberating," nor theology. Instead it is an evil attempt to reclaim political power for the Church as a corporate agency and organizer of the masses.

To satsify the aim of those in love with themselves for supplanting God as an object of adoration.

This aim always adopt the form of a new collectivist dream that demands placing restrictions on those deemed as less insightful individuals, together with the elvation of the superior few.

Lately this aim has more prominently adopted the garb of "saving the environment."

The Democrats are out hunting for gullible fellow travelers among the Christians.

Liberals and Arrested Development
Anyone who has raised teenagers have already weathered the storm of a "world of one". Liberals are trapped in limbo, neither children nor adults. Liberals attract negative attention toward themselves because they cannot attract positive attention. Liberals hurl invectives and feel we simply do not understand their superior intellect and views - revealing deep seated feelings of inadequacy.

Hal reminds me of my niece when she was young - we adults were discussing the difficulties of life and when a break in the conversation came - she blurted out "I don't like soup".

Solo610
Your entire post was about Ortega saying something nice about Obama. How can my comment be "out of context"?

It is interesting, however as you say. I wouldn't pretend to know what is in Ortega's mind. But regardless, it is hardly an indictment of Obama and his policies. This doesn't even qualify as "guilt by association".

I re-read your post. I still don't see anything about Hillary. I guess I'll continue to "ignore facts".

BTW, an African-American running for president is more or less a revolutionary phenomenon isn't it?

Solo610
"...Are you serious? If i was an enemy i would want the leader who would give me the least amount of trouble. Bush is far from perfect, very far. In fact, he does a lot of stupid things. One thing he has not done wrong is take the fight to the enemy. How many attacks have happened on U.S. soil since Sept 11 2001 Hal? "

You got it! That leader is Bush or McSame. Bush has been completely ineffectual and by our own account he has let Osama and Al Q thrive and grow while severly damaging US military and economic capability. Why attack us? We might change and become an actual threat to them.

"Maybe we should just have a big international group hug Hal? Everyone will forgive everyone. Don't worry about that thing poking you in the chest when you embrace your new friends, its just the detonator. "

LMAO I am not a "warm, fuzzy liberal". My complaint is GROSS incompetence and damage to this country.

Solo610
"Wow, 8 years in the Marine Corps now and i get called chickenhearted because i favor policies on the right? "

Ahhh you have trouble reading? I didn't call you a chickenheart try and read again? Huh no comment about the rest???

"Im starting to think you are a troll."

I am a troll LOL

"You concede nothing, even when clearly defeated. As far as giving back, i assume you give every extra dollar you have to those less fortunate than yourself? Oh wait, you would rather have the government take my money and make me do it. I forgot... "


your almost stuttering dear

marxism????
let us be clear, under marxism, no one would be allowed to own private property.

all corporations would be owned and run by the state.

individuals would be told where to work and where to live.

religious worship would be banned


until those conditions are being espoused by a politician or minister, this is just the ramblings of someone who either does not understand the real evils of marxism or is being intellectually dishonest.

Dreamer
I re-read your post. I still don't see anything about Hillary. I guess I'll continue to "ignore facts"."

Try going up a post or two, we are limited on how big our post size can be.

Retired Geek
Are you speaking of ALL liberals when you describe them? Or just SOME of them? What percentage then? Can you please be more specific when you insult someone? And could you give some concrete examples of your declarations?

Don't get me wrong. I don't like far-left liberals any more than you do. But to broad-brush 50% of the population like that, it sure seems like you are discrediting yourself.

Hal
LMAO I am not a "warm, fuzzy liberal". My complaint is GROSS incompetence and damage to this country. "

Your solution is to put a soft tree hugger in office. Good call.

I didn't call you a chickenheart try and read again? Huh no comment about the rest???"

I'd rather have them at my back than a chickenhearted rightie."

Looks like you need to re-read your own post. If i had to pick a side, certainly it would not be the left.

your almost stuttering dear"

Don't call me dear, im a grown man. If you really were at such a loss for words a simple "I concur" would have done.




Solo610
Oh Geez, sorry but I can't go back and read everybody's posts. I'd be here all day. I was just responding to one post and it seemed appropriate to that one post. Since Hillary wasn't in that one, I just responded to your other point.

Anyway, I'll drop it now. I think I made my point.

ChairmanMao
Perhaps you've swallowed the "Gospel of Wealth" philosophy rampant in Christianity today. Christ died on the cross, not to atone for our sins, but to make us fabulously wealthy, here on Earth.

Liberal Arrogance
Arrogance simply defined is "an obnoxious display of real or imagined superiority". Knowing everything is not possible - unless one is of a liberal mindset. While in my fifties I was a speaker at an international conference of computer programmers. I found myself standing in line to ask questions of a 17 year old. I learned more than my brain could hardly contain in a very short time.

Understanding and believing are very different things. I will leave understanding to the theologians while I struggle with simply believing.

"I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

GOP party logic
So, according to Austin Hill, raising taxes is ipso facto "Marxist."

Does that mean that Bush's creation of a $200 billion Medicare prescription drug benefit for seniors, without paying for it, is "free enterprise"?

Now I get it! Buying things on credit without paying for them is the GOP's idea of "free enterprise"!

No wonder the economy is tanking now. Buying homes with no money down was part of Bush's "ownership society" vision too.

Go ahead, take this argument to the American voters in the fall and see how well it plays with them.

Marxism and American Christians
While I concur with Mr. Hill regarding Christians and the Economics, I disagree with him that this is Marxism. I believe that it is Fascism. I have thought this for a long time. Fascism allows private ownership of business but the government, with a 'carrot and stick' approach, i.e. reward those businesses who conform to your policies and punish those who don't, seems to me to be what is actually happening. You have only to look at the proliferation of business lobbies in the last few years to understand that they are trying to curry favor and influence government. Witness the government banning the cheap but efficient GE incandescent light bulb in favor of the 10 times as expensive GE fluorescent bulb containing poisonous mercury in return for GE promoting 'Global Warming' alarmism.
Jonah Goldberg's great new book, "Liberal Fascism" has confirmed my suspicions.

Solo610
"Your solution is to put a soft tree hugger in office. Good call."

He isn't at all. I prefer Hillary but Obama is a good second

"Looks like you need to re-read your own post. If i had to pick a side, certainly it would not be the left. "

I said "A" chickenhearted rightie now if you are chickenhearted as so many are just go ahead and admit

"Don't call me dear, im a grown man. If you really were at such a loss for words a simple "I concur" would have done. "

LMAO some how that term fit. I think it still may

dreamer

Anyway, I'll drop it now. I think I made my point."

Your tag has never been more appropriate.

Dreamer
If the shoe fits wear it. Child prodigies are saddled with superior intellect and a childish personality. Anyone who knows or has been one of these children know how difficult it is to deal with the reality of this world. They must strive to make their mind conform to reality not reality conform to their mind. Reality, facts and analysis are not the strong suit of liberals. Liberals measure themselves and others by intentions rather than results. Life is all about decisions and consequences not feelings and perspectives.

Retired Geek/Dreamer
"... Reality, facts and analysis are not the strong suit of liberals. Liberals measure themselves and others by intentions rather than results."

LMAO talk about out of touch with reality?? That is you! After all these years of Bush, the torturer, you still claim fundamentalist conservatives are reality based and logic rules??? Get a grip. The Bush Regime has clearly shown you conservative extremists are not fit to rule.... take your fear and timidity and go back to your bunkers

" Life is all about decisions and consequences not feelings and perspectives. "

Then that me explain it. You miss out on so much of live without feelings

Hal
He isn't at all. I prefer Hillary but Obama is a good second"

Im sure you do. I know the blatant Marxist philosophy she spews does not bother you. We really should have it out on a particular subject, say UHC?
Ideas like hers only work when everyone contributes. That is not reality. In reality, people want as much as they can while giving as little as possible. There has to be consequences. You want to sit on your porch all day and do nothing, no benefits for you. What suckers we all are, paying for others to be lazy. Hillary would like to think she is Robin Hood, but she is as greedy as the next politician.


Why does it not surprise me that its in your style to address other men as "dear"?

saddle back church
A saddle goes on a horse normally.....sorta reminds me of the subject here! But there is another word after horse! That church is in
screwed-up-afornia..the last state you can enter without plopping into the pacific ocean!
As i have heard from people who have gone there
IT IS YOU ALL COME....pssst but dont forget your wallet!

elvis

TruLib of 11:15
You are stating the bottom line, brother. I hope i'm around a few more years to watch how it turns out.

Retired Geek
That's all fine and dandy. Now would you care to answer even one of my questions? Like can you give some examples of your accusations, rather than just plain blather? Are you referring to ALL liberals, all 50% of the voters?

Don't "assume" support from Christians
I think that one thing that Republicans take for granted is that Prolife, Profamily Evangelicals look just the same. I have voted Republican for the last 20 years only because the Republicans have support the prolife and profamily positions. Now that Republicans are moving away from their support of these issues, I am looking for a new party to support. Focus on the Family had a cartoon once about with the Rebublican marching band coming to a fork in the road and the Christians stopped at the fork and were considering whether the follow the band down a road called Republican Way or go down another road called God's Way. I am afraid this is where the Rebublican party is today. Either the Republican's need to regain their moral roots, or they risk loosing some significant parts. If I have "no dog in this fight", I am likely to just not watch the fight this time and just stay at home on election day.

Solo610
"..Im sure you do. I know the blatant Marxist philosophy she spews does not bother you. We really should have it out on a particular subject, say UHC? "

Define Marism? Someone did a quite good job earlier

"Ideas like hers only work when everyone contributes. That is not reality. In reality, people want as much as they can while giving as little as possible."

Really why did it work so well for most of our history? Your fundamentalist kind of conservatism raised its ugly head around the turn of the 19th to the 20th century and died with Hoover. This time it raised its ugly head beginning in the midish 60's and is ending in the collapse of the Bush Regime

"There has to be consequences. You want to sit on your porch all day and do nothing, no benefits for you. What suckers we all are, paying for others to be lazy. Hillary would like to think she is Robin Hood, but she is as greedy as the next politician. "

My, my what a bitter man. Funny if we work together with wins for all there are few problems

"Why does it not surprise me that its in your style to address other men as "dear"? "

It is a term of address used for young children too young for logic...

The way I see it----
The way I see it is that there are many intellegent people posting on this thread. They may have the same views or separate views. But every one of us has a good interpretation of good old common sense. In that I will say that we have what I believe is a forced redistribution of wealth. How so, well it has recently been reported that it costs over 330 Billion dollars a year to educate, medicate, incarcerate, and the nutrition needs for the illegal alien population in this country. Did anyone here vote for your taxes to be used this way? Is this not a form of taxation without any representation? And I did not include in the above costs, the deaths and injuries caused by illegal aliens on this population that have been reported.
I stay out of religious arguments since I believe in the religion of my Viking ancestors and think that everyone is free to have their own beliefs. But as I have said before , don't try to indoctrinate me into another belief.
In closing, have any one of the 3 leading candidates said anything about cutting off the costs for the upkeep of these parasite illegals??

The Church is as socialist as it gets.
Let's face it, the Church is socialist. That goes for all Christian Denominations. The Church is just like the government; it produces nothing and consumes as much as it can get. It only provides services based on the amount of income it can "tax" from it's citzenry (1st Collection). If it has desires to expand its services, even temporarily, "taxes" a little more (2nd Collection). Don't fool yourselves into thinking otherwise. The main difference between the Church and the government is participation in one system is voluntary, the other mandatory (in order to be legal, anyway). You can benefit from both systems though, although one will take legal action against you if you decide not to participate.

Abortion
The Pro-choice lobby goes out of its way to prevent pregant people from making informed choices about the baby they carry.

I for one have had discussions with the pro-choice people. They do want the killing of an innocent life.

What they do not want is an informed woman making this decision.


There are several side effects of abortion, some are: major depression, breast cancer, suicide, death, and so on. This is exactly what the pro-choice crowd do not want the woman to know.

SVARA
"..In that I will say that we have what I believe is a forced redistribution of wealth. How so, well it has recently been reported that it costs over 330 Billion dollars a year to educate, medicate, incarcerate, and the nutrition needs for the illegal alien population in this country."

Now where did this number come from???

"Did anyone here vote for your taxes to be used this way? Is this not a form of taxation without any representation? "

I did not vote for Bush, the torturer, to use three TRILLION dollars for his war in Iraq

"... But as I have said before , don't try to indoctrinate me into another belief.
In closing, have any one of the 3 leading candidates said anything about cutting off the costs for the upkeep of these parasite illegals?? "

all we needed to do was enforce the laws but nope you guys thought that was government "interference" and in classic extremist fashion you made a lot of noise killed a possible solution and nothing changed - typical incompetence. You oppose "amnesty" for illegals but have no problem with real amnesty for phone companies -- dumb

Wounded Knee
"..The Pro-choice lobby goes out of its way to prevent pregant people from making informed choices about the baby they carry. "

That is a law but You do go out of your way to ensure they do not get the education and birth contraol to ensure unwanted pregnancies are rare.

"...There are several side effects of abortion, some are: major depression, breast cancer, suicide, death, and so on. This is exactly what the pro-choice crowd do not want the woman to know. "

Those are the same side effects of pregnancy too

God: man does not need government
Recall 1 Samuel 8:11-20.

Recall the motivation of the governments in Judea to crucify Jesus.

Jesus was a threat to their political power.

Churches that suck up to the politically powerful are playing with hellfire.

wildwest
haha sorry. I accidentally used your name in this forum instead of the other one. I was posting to 3 or 4 at the same time.

Sorry again. I guess making a mistake like that makes me a troll. hyuk hyuk.

Liberal Silver Bullets
Liberals believe there is a "silver bullet" for every problem. Hard work and sacrifice is a dynamic that is foreign to their problem solving skills. With personalities that haven't matured they employ adolescent tactics to gain the attention they crave. Life is difficult, reality is difficult – playing peek-a-boo with problems will not solve them. Liberals would rather feel good and search for the silver bullet than roll up their sleeves. Socialism and Marxist values are demonstrable failures but facts only get in their way. Obama the “prophet” will bring this flock into the “promised land” of utopia. Hope and Change is the mantra - they do not explain exactly what that means only that the goal is not to be like us.

Retired Geek
"...Hard work and sacrifice is a dynamic that is foreign to their problem solving skills."

Really? We won WWII, the Space Race and the Cold War and you have done what???? Take apart what was done and replace it with nothing. Incompetence thy name is conservative


Hal, hal, hal.--
Hal open up http://tinyurl.com/zob77 for openers. And I did not vote for jorge bush, because I wrote in Tom Tancredo, and this time I will write in Duncan Hunter, so don't infer the "you guys thought it was this govt. interference bit.
I live in a border state and a sanctuary city so we here see the problems first hand, that is why many of us like and write in people like Tancredo and Hunter. BTW don't assume that we like the phone companies either. Use your gray matter, if possible.

Hal Donahue Clueless as usual
""all we needed to do was enforce the laws but nope you guys thought that was government "interference" and in classic extremist fashion you made a lot of noise killed a possible solution and nothing changed - typical incompetence. You oppose "amnesty" for illegals but have no problem with real amnesty for phone companies -- dumb""

And the award for the most stupidity in one paragraph goes to...... Envelope please..... Hal D.

The only thing you said correct was "all we needed to do was enforce the laws "

But We screwed it up?

I guess during the 8 years your hero slick willy was in office we had absolutely NO illegals crossing the border huh? That remark was totally specious hal, how did you type that with a straight face?


"nope you guys thought that was government "interference""

WTF? I don't know a single conservative that thinks Enforcing our immigration laws is "Government Interference". Hal, did you forget to take your thorazine this morning?

And to call the 'Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill' a "possible solution" is 100% liberal bull-puckey.


Hal you spin so much you should hook yourself to a generator, you could power a dozen homes.

rigajohn of 4:54
Mr. McCain has succeeded in alienating all the principled part of his base. The only people who will vote for him are those voting against the Dems. One never knows, but i doubt these folks will be enough this time, barring some really dumb and/or disastrous event. I'll vote for conservative candidates where possible, but president looks like a write-in, as of now.

JackPine: Now, you know there is NO

reasoning with halD!

He hasn't posted one single comment, in heaven knows how long, if ever, that made a wit of sense, was the least bit intelligent, or for that matter was even coherent.

And in addition to that, he can't seem to stay on topic... always dragging Pres. Bush into the discussion... Acute BDS!

I've suggested that as soon as they come up with a vaccine for BDS, that halD volunteer for the very first clinical trials... And no doubt he will since it will be gov't. funded... LOL




Savage99: Are your write-ins counted?

In some states they are just dis-regarded... along with any votes for other candidates for other offices...

Just wondering.





Bitter Hal?
Somehow i get the idea that you are one of the idiots looking for a handout. Logic is not one of your strong points.

I agree Anne
But sometimes we have to point out Hal's more aggregious posts, if nothing else to protect innocent folks who don't know better from being corrupted by his liberal spin on reality.

It has to be killing hal to see his heroine Hillary losing to Obama, looks like he won't be applying for his white house internship after all. Which is kind of a shame considering he bought his pretty blue dress and presidential kneepads back when Hillary was "Inevitable".
(I don't even want to know where he keeps the cigar)

It would be sad if it wasn't so freaking FUNNY!

Jackpine Savage
"I guess during the 8 years your hero slick willy was in office we had absolutely NO illegals crossing the border huh? That remark was totally specious hal, how did you type that with a straight face?"

Well let's see was it 2005 that the Bush Regime prosecuted 15 companies for hiring illegals? In 1999 Clinton;s administration prosecutes over 1,000. Besides I will say again Clinton was LONG ago that crutch doesn't work

"WTF? I don't know a single conservative that thinks Enforcing our immigration laws is "Government Interference"."

Not now but then you kept your mouths shut and kissed Bush, the torturer, ring

"And to call the 'Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill' a "possible solution" is 100% liberal bull-puckey."

It was Bush's bill and you folks just screamed and as usual had zero answers.

"Hal you spin so much you should hook yourself to a generator, you could power a dozen homes. "

Look in the mirror. I know conservatives cannot accept responsibility but at least try to hide it LOl

The cons are destroying America.
"Obama and Clinton are both advancing economic ideas that are essentially Marxist in their nature."

Except for the fact that our Constitution was written with the expressed purpose of Government:
"in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, "

Bunch of commies.

Only they weren't... It is you cons who are the enemy.

Solo610
""Somehow i get the idea that you are one of the idiots looking for a handout. Logic is not one of your strong points.""

There are 2 types of true liberals Solo.

1) the type who wants the government to take care of their every need and want from cradle to grave, so they don't have the pain of actually making decisions for themselves.

and

2) Those who think they are smarter and more enlightened than the rest of us "unwashed masses", and believe they'll be part of that special ruling class that makes the laws we have to live under. (exemptimg themselves from said rules of course)

Hal happens to be one of the 2nd group.
He points this out in his condescending posts to those whom he feels superior. (which is everyone who disagrees with him)

Of course hal just wants the clintons back in the white house so he can apply to be an intern.

mystery? duncan hunter?
This article is tied into church/religion isnt it?
Well, I have a question that relates to hunter, i think!? When hunter endorsed huckaberry
I was very surprised..because hunter seemed so different than mikey for example--hunter against oillegal immigration..mikey as governor...very open border type of guy, duncan very conservative, huckaberry very spend,spend,etc. type of giy!
I coudnt find any logic in the endorsement: then I found out that both are baptists! Hmmm?!
very revealing..?? BARF!
elvis

Hal can be so funny
especially when he isn't trying to be.

""It was Bush's bill and you folks just screamed and as usual had zero answers.""

We had Plenty of answers, they just weren't the answers you libs wanted to hear, so on your twisted little minds that meant we had no answers.

Let's see, how about "Stop the employment magnet"? We don't need to deport the illegals, just stop letting companies hire them and they will self-deport.

not to mention "Build the G*Damned fence"!

You liberals always want to show your "compassion" for the downtrodden when it comes to circuses like minimum wage, but if you really want to make wages go up, stop letting companies hire illegals who are holding down the wages.

Your liberal "leaders" a;; cried that americans can't raise a family on $5.25 an hour, and raised min wage to $7.25. Yet in the same breath they also say we need to let those illegals sneak in here and work for $2.25/hr "Because they have to support tyheir families".

Yet you try to say conservatives can't think logically? Like I said hal, You're Really Funny, especially when you're not trying to be.

trughes
""It is you cons who are the enemy.""

Yes, we're your enemy trughes, we're the enemy of evey socialist who wants to hijack our nation and turn it into USSR-lite.

oh, and We have all the Guns too!

:o)

trughes
The preamble to our Constitution simply describes intent, not the law.
This is law;
United States Constitution, Article IV, Section 4
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

This clearly states a Republican Form of Government, NOT COMMUNISM!
It clearly indicates our Borders are to be maintained, not opened to your "One World"

If you want to live under Communism, go to Cuba and be happy!
You have everyone's blessings!

Jackpine
Your point on Hal is well taken. I have a bad habit of thinking that evidence will persuade people, the Hals of the world continue to prove that to be false.

Hal, for the last time----
Saying that "you guys helped to create the illegal mess". No "we" didn't , the dip wads in DC did and their lap dogs who worshiped them. We knew about this and did our best to fight it. BTW who is your candidate who can bring us back to sanity and logic?

Democracy demands an educated electorate
Unfortunately, anyone who writes the following should be excluded from the process of democracy.

" exactly who is it that enables all the losers that are counted on to support the dims and their plantation of entitlement. Where does it state in the constitution that those who produces are responsible for those to lazy and too stupid to take care of themselves."

It was Thomas Jefferson's intention that no one participating in democracy should be so stupid.

For one thing: "Constitution" should be capitalized, you disrespetful, unpatriotic cretin. But that is not even the beginning of your problems.

In answer to your question: "The general welfare"! That's where!

If you think for a moment, that the wealthy in this country could be "those who produces [sic]" without a government to support and protect it?? Do you think that without police, without banking, without LAW! regulating trading and contracts, do you think, (of course that might be an oxymoron, for you) you think for a moment that the wealthy could stay wealthy without government? What if people started tapping into the telephone wires leading to the weathly peoples houses and there were no laws against that. What if someone just shot you in the face with a sawed off shotgun, and there were no laws, would that make the wealthy any wealthier?

Or you define government in any way you like?


trughes
There is no such thing as "The general welfare". We pay taxes (too many) to the government, they hold up their end of the barigan. There is nothing that says i need to pay for the deadbeat (Hal D) who does not work. Show me, where on the BOR or Constitution it says i owe the lazy bastards who refuse to work? I must have missed it, please point it out for all of us ignorant people.

Both the OT and the NT..
… are replete with warnings against corrupting God’s word with the “wisdom of men”. The Bible tasks Christians to learn the signs of false teachers and not to follow them. Church leaders are warned in particular not to lead their congregations astray.

One eye opening conclusion I’ve come to realize from studying the Bible and comparing it to what I see around me is – the day after the Rapture occurs, many church congregations will head to their church to discuss with their pastors, priests, ministers and other Church leaders as to why they are all still here.

I was and still am deeply bothered by the realization that far, far fewer people who call themselves Christians (including many who attend Church regularly) will be taken in the Rapture than I originally was lead to believe.

SOS, Not Meaning "Save Our Ship"
Mr Hill: So it's a moral and Christian thing for the factory owner to become as rich as possible at the expense of his workers? It's a moral and Christian thing for the rich factory owner also to own the whole town? Funny, I don't think a single one of my childhood Sunday School teachers would have agreed with you. What a charming rationalization of greed.

I suggest that your argument be presented by John McCain at the very first debate. He should be sure to emphasize that the CEO (already making 600 x the salary of his average worker) who outsources the jobs of his 4000 factory workers, accepts a tax credit for doing so, rewards himself with $200 million in bonuses, then sells the factory at a fire sale and takes the money to Grand Cayman to invest in his personal account as the rest of the town collapses with the factory closed, is just demonstrating Christian Witness. This was the social philosophy of American business in about 1890 except that they didn't then have the means to outsource as easily as is done now.

As for the importance of personal wealth in sustaining charity, that's not a new idea either---William Blake explained it to us in the 18th Century:

"Charity would be no more
If we did not make someone poor."


Let's stop being generous with our
neighbors hard work and be generous with our own. Or let's stop trying to live off another man's income and create our own. 100% on the mark. But we must remember it is our responsibility as voters to be sure we are voting for capitalists instead of socialists. They appear in both parties. And if a wealthy capitalist decides to be selfish with his private money, which is his right, at least he is creating jobs enabling others to be generous. Christians should never believe in the government's redistribution of income as a solution to poverty it destroys the economy and rots the soul.

lilly
writes, "Mr Hill: So it's a moral and Christian thing for the factory owner to become as rich as possible at the expense of his workers? It's a moral and Christian thing for the rich factory owner also to own the whole town? Funny, I don't think a single one of my childhood Sunday School teachers would have agreed with you. What a charming rationalization of greed."

Lilly, you start out your rant with a typical leftist fallacy. Is it possible for a factory owneer to become rich without it being at the expense of the workers? What would the workers be doing if the factory owner had not decided to build the factory? Should the owner, who has risked perhaps his life savings, be compensated no better than the hourly wage he pays his laborers who have invested nothing but time.

Your final quote says it all:

"Charity would be no more
If we did not make someone poor."

Yes, of course, poor people are not poor due to anything within their control at all. They are made poor by others. Someone has taken their money and impoverished them against their will. Usually this is done by a tyrant like Mao, or Chavez and done in the name of the people. All are impoverished to keep them equal except the tyrant and his friends of course. You advocate greater government control here slowly achieving the same purpose but, you do not see what you are doing lilly. Your intentions of making things more equal achieve the opposite result but, you blindly keep trying the same remedies for the supposed ills.


Solo610
No such thing as "General Welfare"??

You think we are all just fighting it out everyday?

You think that the laws of this country provide us with NO security, the POLICE are absolutely worthless, and LEGALITY of business contracts and the ENFORCEMENT of banking LAW are absolutely useless, and that businessmen have to bring their six-shooters to work to make sure people pay their bills.

I don't think so. THAT you is the GENERAL WELFARE!

Oh, but I see, what you lunatics are really concerned about is the Rapture.

Well, that is exactly why you have no right to get involved in politics. The whole right wing is a religious CULT, driven by lunatics.

The Rapture, are you kidding?

Scooternyc
Dear Scooternyc, You are lost. Intelligence and wisdom do not walk hand in hand. Without a healthy respect for the Creator of the universe there is not a chance for wisdom, commonsense, or goodness. You do not walk in reality. Read the Bible, ask questions, search as if for treasure with an open mind. It's a gift and available to everyone. Followers will let you down but Truth will not.

For those who ask where is the Marxism
From the Communist Manifesto:

We Communists have been reproached with the desire of abolishing the right of personally acquiring property as the fruit of a man's own labor, which property is alleged to be the groundwork of all personal freedom, activity and independence.

Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.

Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable. . .

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
(Lenin)

Any questions?




Poverty is not a lack of funds
The mere suggestion that the wealthy have the slightest to do with why the poor are poor, is a Marxist lie.

I've spent time in the ghetto among kids who were abandoned by their parents, and among kids who were not. True poverty has nothing to do with the quantity of material objects, or the amount of cash a person has. Poverty is about ignorance and emptiness of the soul. A person who lives for him- or herself, who has to rely on government give-outs to make the bills, and who blames their plight on someone other than themselves, is poor. A person who's aware of his own weakness, but works hard and lives for others, is never poor. Young kids in the ghetto whose parents keep them working hard at school, who learn a solid work ethic, who know right from wrong -- these kids end up in the middle class, no matter how poor their parents are.

Nearly everybody I met in the projects had MORE STUFF THAN I DID. I still sit on 2nd-hand sofas and sleep on old mattresses. It's not a big deal. I don't consider myself poor, because nobody is keeping me down. I live free, I have what I need, and I don't need handouts. I work at what I enjoy. My bills are paid. No rich person did this to me; I'm content.

The very idea that rich people can make somebody else poor is sheer nonsense, and comes from Marxism. Democrats are full of this.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Can You Say Marxism
This is the most Marxist article i have read in a very long time!!! Spliting this country based on Wealth is so Marxist its unreal!! Look God said in his Word poverty will always be with us. To believe anything other than Gods Almighty Hand can eliminate Poverty is a complete Lie. I dont care who is saying it Rick Warren or Barrack Obama!

Hitchhiker
Something else that Blake's quote about people being made poor doesn't take into account: that some people experience poverty by virtue of making bad lifestyle choices. If a person chooses to disdain education or to get involved with illegal drugs, excessive amounts of alcohol, or criminal activity, all of which are choices fully within the control of an individual to make or not make, such a person is going to tend to court penury. Frankly, most of the poverty that I have seen in people's lives personally was NOT the result, at least not primarily, of economic factors, but the above-mentioned choices lifestyle choices. The people that we read about in the New Testament who Jesus or His disciples encountered as beggars or others in deep penury were, to the best of my knowledge, almost without exception widows left bereft of any family to support them or people who suffered physical dysfunctions beyond their control: blindness, lameness, leprosy, etc. How many such people do you see begging at traffic lights and alongside freeway on- or off-ramps today? Frankly, the vast majority I see look plenty able-bodied to me, but to them their lifesyle represents "freedom", which is liberalspeak for "not having to accept responsibility for anything or anybody, themselves included". Liberals couldn't care less about sustaining or reforming a dysfunctional person's dysfunction as long as they can look virtuous doing it - because they're all about IMAGE, not RESULTS.

inkling_revival
Right on! Your post reminds me of something I read from the the autobiography THEY CALL ME ASSASSIN of former Oakland Raiders' free safety Jack Tatum - a man who experienced poverty first-hand in the ghetto of Passiac, New Jersey. Even Tatum, however, with his background, had no sympathy for ghetto-dwellers who made no attempt to improve their lives. Tatum wrote that anyone who spends his time feeling sorry for himself because he was born and raised in the ghetto is going to die in the ghetto. Tatum wrote that, while he was living in Passaic, he wasn't going to let the ghetto own his soul. And that's why he got out. Yes, he had great athletic talent to help as his ticket out, but the same has been true for countless thousands of kids (who had either athletic or some other kind of useful talent) who never got out except by death or prison because they didn't make the determination that Tatum did that they wouldn't let the ghetto own their souls and therefore didn't make the decisions and priorities about their own lives to make their escape possible. However, Democrats WANT black people to feel hopeless, oppressed, and angry: the plain and simple fact is, white Democrats LIKE dysfunction in the black community because they profit handsomely from it.

What to see proverty?
Go to East Kentucky or Eastern West Virgina. These people have been buried in that sad state for years, and they have churches working daily to help them. In Owlsey Country, the poorest county in the entire country, only 49% of the kids receive a high school education. Every kid in the school system is in the free lunch program, and the largest employer is the school system. The nearest Wal-Mart is some 40 miles away from Booneville. Of the 100 poorest counties in the U.S., 30 are in this Kentucky, W.V. and Tennessee pocket. It has become a way of life there, and The picture most people get of Kentucky is the mountain area, when in fact the rest of the state is quite well off. The poor will be with us always, only when the poor really deside to change their life style will it get better for them. We can continue to throw $$$$$ at the inner cities, and the pockets of poverty, but help through education, and a change of attitude must come for there to be real change. Warren and several black leaders continue to try and shame us when there are thousands of Christians working to end proverty, and billions of American tax dollars heaped on the problem. Its more about education and attitude than dollars.

previous post
That should be Western West Virgina, I am sure you figured that out by now...

previous post
That should be Western West Virgina, I am sure you figured that out by now...

Poverty as a permanent condition
Is often a choice for people who dislike the demands of getting out of poverty.

For many others, poverty is a transitional state to be avoided, raised above from, rejected.

Marxism and corporate religion are both obsessed with the Western European outlook that you are defined and arrested by your economic condition.

Marxism rejects the Humanistic view that we are the architecs of our own destiny.

While some religions also promote a world outlook of acceptance and surrender.

And still other religious views sustain that only a suffering servant is a worthy servant.

They all propose an 'aristorcatic' view of humanity where the few reign over the unwashed many, who are by nature unable to make the right and pure choices that God or (in Marxism) the socio-economic formation demands.

The left hates American pastors who tell their congregations they are not victims but, children of the most high God.

They call it the theology of greed.

Of course, they call their own message "Liberation Theology" instead of "Theology of Victimhood."

The idea that a person's condition cannot be altered unless the whole society changes is the most depressive, enslaving, disempowering notion ever imagined.

For Marxist and Collectivist Theologians we are never individuals but only members of a class.

They have a hard time explaining Tiger Woods, Oprah, Michael Jordan, and the black doctor, down the corner. So they ignore them and operate as if every sucessful person is a negligible singularity.

Here a program Marx would hate
http://www.heifer.org/

what a silly article
As if the Church hasn't been engaged in caring for the poor, fighting disease, etc. ! What Warren is trying to do is facilitate the Church handing over what remains of these long time features of "practical" Christianity to the government. The church has been doing this privately directly or through para-church and other nonprofits. It is noteworthy that even Hill recognizes that the older Evangelical activists have narrowly defined their POLITICAL efforts to abortion and marriage. So much for designs on a theocracy as liberals often accuse. But what Hill seems to miss is that so much of what the Church is about is our own personal behavior, our own personal responsibilities. Any collectivism is focuses on the Church. Any activity engaged in Christ's name is by the Church. The Church knows that it is on shaky ground when it starts making policy statements as the Church on economics or foreign affairs or any other area on which the Bible is not specific.

So he snidely laments that we "have virtually nothing to say about the virtues of wealth creation, and the kind of economic environment that fosters prosperity." And he says "This ambivalence towards economic paradigms - - which is at its core a failure to adequately understand economics as a “moral issue”..." So his deep economic insights into the fundamental morality of economics? "...It is okay for individuals to create wealth for themselves and their families; and that private citizens should care for the needy of society, rather than abdicating this responsibility..." Give me a break! Write a column when you have something to teach us.
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