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Sunday, March 09, 2008
Austin Hill :: Townhall.com Columnist
McCain, Republicans, and "Global Warming"
by Austin Hill
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Will Congress pass Obamacare by the end of the year?

Think you can sidestep the issue of “global warming,” simply by voting Republican?

Think again.

Now that Senator John McCain is officially the Republican nominee for President, global warming is, whether anyone likes it or not, an “issue” for both of our nation’s dominant political parties. McCain has been gravitating towards this issue for several years, and made his mark with it during his chairing of the U.S. Senate hearings on global warming back in 2004.

Today, Mr. McCain articulates a position on the matter that is far more moderate and reasonable, and far more hospitable to our free market economy, than those of his two Democratic competitors. The question remains whether or not American voters, Republican voters in particular, will embrace McCain’s vision.

Before examining anybody’s policy proposals, it’s important to get a handle on just what, precisely, is the issue. And by now, it’s like that most thoughtful Americans have at a minimum been introduced to the idea that the earth’s average temperature is on the rise, and that this is a bad thing, and that this bad thing is brought about by human activity.

But beyond this starting point, the issue quickly devolves into a process of sorting out the “believers” from the “non-believers.” Either you believe that the global temperature is rising, or you don’t; and you either believe that the increase in temperature is brought about by human activity, or by the processes of nature itself; and you either believe that the rise in temperature will bring about destruction and calamity, or that it will not.

Former Vice President Al Gore is, of course, the leader of the “true believers.” On his personal website he states with absolute certainty what this alleged “problem” entails:

Carbon dioxide and other gases warm the surface of the planet naturally by trapping solar heat in the atmosphere. This is a good thing because it keeps our planet habitable. However, by burning fossil fuels such as coal, gas and oil and clearing forests we have dramatically increased the amount of carbon dioxide in the Earth’s atmosphere and temperatures are rising.

But as Mr. Gore states the problem with certainty - - the earth’s temperatures are rising, and this rise is caused by human’s consumption of fossil fuels - - he ignores several details that detract from his strongly asserted “beliefs.”

It is true that the average global temperature has risen slightly (approximately 0.6% over the past century); and it is also true that the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has risen during this same period of time.

Yet most of the temperature increase during this period occurred before 1940, while a majority of the carbon dioxide increase - - about 70% of it - - occurred after 1940. In short, the last century’s slight increase in temperature occurred mostly before the last century’s significant increase in air pollution, a fact that discredits the notion that human activity caused the temperature rise.

Aside from the fact that Mr. Gore and his disciples refuse to acknowledge this dilemma, there are plenty of other reasons for “non-believers” to be skeptical. One obvious item would be the numerous “coldest winter on record” declarations that have occurred in several regions of the country, just within the past six months. Another would be the interesting economic implications entailed in the proposed “remedies” for global warming - - the levying of “consumption taxes,” the abandoning of incandescent light bulbs in favor of much more expensive lighting, and, of course, the purchase of so-called “carbon offsets” from Al Gore’s for-profit corporation.

So what does all this confusion mean for our current presidential race? For starters, Obama and McCain have both essentially abandoned the term “global warming” in favor of “climate change” (Clinton has not made this shift), and all three of the candidates have connected their “climate agendas” to the pursuit of alternative energy sources.

But from there, the candidates diverge. Not surprisingly, Mrs. Clinton is proposing a dramatic, if not radical level of government intervention with America’s automobile manufacturers, and both she and Obama seem ready to bow to the United Nations’ environmental policy dictates.

But fortunately, McCain casts a very different vision. In a video segment on his website, he states “I believe that climate change is real…” ( it’s hard to disagree, so far as this statement goes); but from there asserts that good environmental policy and good economic policy are intertwined, and that the private sector can be incentivized to move away from fossil fuels. McCain also quite wisely ties environmental concerns together with the obvious geopolitical dilemma of our reliance on foreign oil, and makes it clear that, in his administration, the United States will determine its own environmental policy, and not the U.N.

Ultimately, McCain avoids the hysteria over an alleged impending calamity, and characterizes the issue as a matter of “environmental stewardship.” His approach is not only reasonable, but it is arguably “conservative” in its essence.

Whether or not American’s embrace this, remains to be seen.

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About The Author
Austin Hill is a Talk Show Host At Boise, Idaho's 580 KIDO Radio, and a frequent Guest Host on the Fox Newstalk Radio Network. He is the Author of "White House Confidential: The Little Book Of Weird Presidential History," And Co-Author of the forthcoming title "The Virtues Of Capitalism: A Moral Case For Free Markets" (Northfield/Moody Press, 2010).
 
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One more reason not to vote for McCain
as if it's really needed.

McCain essentially takes the same stand as Schwarzenegger, which will prove disastrous for California, as well as the nation.

At least if these idiotic policies are enacted with a Dem in the White House, the Dems have to take the blame for the failure they'll produce.

Further, it might stimulate Republicans in Congress to fight it.

But with McCain, all bets are off. We'll have this nonsense agenda shoved down our throats because the Dems want it and the Repubs won't go against their own President.

Going green is good business
Checked our balance of payments lately? The value of our dollar?

Bush has destroyed everything he has ever touched, and America is just another part of his legacy.

Al Gore would have been far better for our country in the long run; CAFE standards and investments in green energy would have meant spending less on oil and more at home.

Forget global warming. This is about what America needs to do for her own interests.

McCain, Republicans, an "Global Warming"
By caving in on a left-wing myth, the GOP has lost its only advantage over the Democrats;
being the better party on freedom and regulation.
Not one more dime of my hard-earned money goes
to this joke of a party.Ever.

Missing Information
Oops. Mr. Hill neglected to mention that Al Gore is not simply leader of a "believer cult." There's that pesky matter of most of the world's climate scientists being in his corner and very few in Mr. Hill's. But of course that is such an inconvenient truth to bring into the equation.

Please, massuh
There is nothing "reasonable" about trying to incentivize the private sector to move away from fossil fuels. "Environmental stewardship" is nothing more than code for people stewardship - and McCain intends to be the steward. It is government coercion, pure and simple. It is a fundamental repudiation of free market, limited government principles.

If McCain really believes this, then why would he be preferable to one of his opponents? What difference does it really make who enslaves us - the U.N. or our own government? Why should we cooperate with our own enslavement, on the premise that we have an obligation to pick the cotton anyway, but our own government is a gentler master and will whip us less for our failure to do so?

Global Warming Tyranny
Politician love the thought of man-made climate change because it puts them in a position to grab more power, in the name of saving the planet; after all, who could possibly be against saving the planet?

They propose changes to "save the planet" that are at best ineffectual, to make it look as though they are doing something.

If they were, however, to propose real changes, changes that could halt or reverse this alleged man-made climate change, they would lose political points with the electorat. Real change would cause too much inconveniance. A couple cents gas tax is ok, mandating higher fuel mileage standards and the production of zero emmission vehicles, drastically lower speed limits (as in 10 to 20 mph), and mandating lower pollution standars for power plants and the implementation of wind and solare regardless of cost would show that they really believe what they are saying. But it would cost them in the political arena because real change would cause too much inconveniance.

And at the end of the day, political power is all they really care about.

To say
the earth has warmed .06 degrees in the last 100yrs is the dumbest statement i have ever heard.
There is NO way to accuratly measure the earth's temperature.

Several glaciers in glacier national park in Montana disappeared between the yrs 1812 & 1920.
The 300 ft of ice that existed in what is now called death valley disappeared before "man" ever set foot on this land.

We have to think at a level higher than a five year old.

Beastie Boy answered
If "going green" is good for business, there's no need for government involvement. Let's see how rich the Gore-types get without government coercion. It's like saying armed robbery is good for business.

The shrinking value of the dollar is simply a matter of the government increasing the money supply in order to spend more -- like counterfeiting, it's a form of theft.

Try reading an introductory economics text on "comparative advantage" and the international division of labor. It pulverizes the notion that we'd be better off "spending at home." It makes no more sense than saying you should personally grow all your own food and personally manufacture every product you consume (which you're free to try). It would put us back in the Stone Age.

You simply don't understand
I urge you to read my blog at http://www.myspace.com/dobermanmacleod for more information.

John MacCain wants to cut CO2 emissions 50% by 2050, while both Democratic candidates want to cut CO2 emissions 80% by 2050. Unfortunately, even in the very unlikely event that the US was to do that, it would make little difference to the CO2 level in the air, because of enormous world-wide emission increases, plus carbon sinks becoming carbon emitters (which both significantly reduces nature's ability to remove CO2 from the air, and dramatically increases natural emissions).

Fortunately, there is a low cost, highly scalable, and technically feasible method of removing CO2 from the air-biosequestration. Cutting emissions and waiting for a damaged Earth to remove the excess CO2 from the air is a weak (and very expensive) mitigation strategy.

Soon the carrying capacity of the Earth is going to lower rapidly, leaving no resources left to do anything but crisis managment-even the Pentagon agrees.

It is very unlikely that a rapidly growing population and world economy will cut emissions so fast and drastically that either abrupt climate change or runaway global warming will be avoided. Dr James Hansen of NASA says any feasible planetary rescue plan must include a method of removing CO2 from the air.

Johninoregon answered
Several other "pesky matters":

(1)Since all the world's scientists have never voted on the subject, there's no evidence that they agree with Al Gore. The U.N. cherry-picks "scientists" (often from disciplines having nothing to do with climate) who already agree with their politicized agenda. It's like polling Hillary staffers on who would be the best president.

(2) Who cares what a "scientist" whose field is kidney function opines about "global warming"? His knowledge about kidney function doesn't give him any more authority on climate change than a bricklayer. Polls show that 90% of professional climatologists believe global temperature shifts are primarily due to fluctuating solar energy output and variations in the Earth's orbit. More fundamentally however, science is about truth, not polls. One contrary fact trumps any "consensus." By the way, how exactly did my minivan cause "global warming" on Mars?

(3) In order to get their hands on funding, "scientists" eagerly cooperated with Stalin, Hitler, etc. Any whore can put on a lab coat, and any science geek can get on his knees for a nice payday.

dobermac - ''biosequestration''...
--
...(which includes the so-called "Geritol solution") is a major Dirty Word among the blithering Luddites who support the concept of anthropogenic global warming.

Which is to say the clowns who believe not only in global warming (or is it "global climate change" this week?) but that human activities - such as the burning of fossil fuels and the (putative) reduction of photosynthetic biomass through land-clearing - is responsible for any significant amount thereof.

You want to drive an Algore-type "inconvenient truther" into a blood-bursting display of rage?

Say "biosequestration" anywhere within his hearing.




--------------
"Global warmers predict that global warming is coming, and our emissions are to blame. They do that to keep us worried about our role in the whole thing. If we aren't worried and guilty, we might not pay their salaries. It's that simple."

-- Kary Mullis, Winner of the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry

McCain shows Incompetence-Again!!
McCain-Global Warming go together like, lets see, McCain-Feingold or McCain-Kennedy or McCain-Lieberman...

McCain can whine all he wants that "I am too a Conservative-I am too a Conservative" but his actions and beliefs show his TRUE nature.

Unlike many True Conservatives, McCain wants so badly to be loved by the left that he just keeps showing us he is not a Conservative. Saying it does not make it so. A skunk can say he is a rose all he wants but the smell tells us otherwise.

I do wonder if McCain has a financial interest in Al Gores company selling "Carbon Credits" (there is a oximoron) to make the earth more green. Gore is slated to make hundreds of millions if he can dupe us into this hoax and force us to buy carbon credits.

Buy their pigs ear if you wish but as one who has a Science Degree, the evidence does NOT indicate what those head cases are selling as Science.

Maybe McCains fund raiser (Carly) can raise enough money through the RNC that they can save the earth, as they see it; but for me and my house-we will give McCain the Conservative support he deserves, which is NOTHING.

WRITING A NAME IN in NOVEMBER!!
Never McCain-Never Hillary-Never Barack-but Always America!!!!


When you're a cultist
johninoregon: "Oops. Mr. Hill neglected to mention that Al Gore is not simply leader of a "believer cult." There's that pesky matter of most of the world's climate scientists being in his corner and very few in Mr. Hill's. But of course that is such an inconvenient truth to bring into the equation."
------------------------
When you're a cultist, everyone else is in a cult, or preternaturally deluded. Christians are cultists, who think that everyone is deluded by a mythological being known as Satan. $cientologists are cultists, who think that everyone is deluded by a mythological being known as Xenu. And so it goes.

Did you get past Econ 201, Michael?
Michael: "If "going green" is good for business, there's no need for government involvement. Let's see how rich the Gore-types get without government coercion. It's like saying armed robbery is good for business."
-----------------------
Obviously, you never got very far beyond supply and demand in Econ 201. Subsidization and the costs of entry affect the equation; the costs of projecting military force around the world should be added to the cost of oil, and Bush's War is literally costing us trillions. Tax incentives foul the equation even more profoundly. Start-up and transition costs for green energy are enormous.

The free market is only a starting point, because monopolies and oligopolies are natural under such a system. Government is needed in a capitalist society to prevent their abuse.

As for government coercion, it is a question of whether Exxon-Mobil gets rich or someone else.

Michael
Michael: "The shrinking value of the dollar is simply a matter of the government increasing the money supply in order to spend more -- like counterfeiting, it's a form of theft."
---------------------
You're telling a vocal Ron Paul supporter this?!?

The problem is in spending more than we produce, which precipitates the printing of fiat currency.

False dichotomy, Michael
Michael: "Try reading an introductory economics text on "comparative advantage" and the international division of labor. It pulverizes the notion that we'd be better off "spending at home." It makes no more sense than saying you should personally grow all your own food and personally manufacture every product you consume (which you're free to try). It would put us back in the Stone Age."
------------------------
What I am suggesting is that at $3 per gallon, green energy is actually more cost-efficient (that is what our public utilities are telling us), and if you taxed all the hidden costs of oil, we'd be paying closer to $6 per gallon. At that point, it becomes an economic imperative.

Can you honestly explain what economic imperative caused us to subsidize the purchase of three-ton behemoths like the Cadillac Escalade? Under Sec. 179 of the IRC, you could write the whole dammed thing off when you bought it! If we had imposed CAFE standards similar to those of Australia when President Gore had assumed office, we would not need any oil from the ME today.

The debate here is about comparative advantage, but it is between oil and alternative energy. Hemp would be a far better source of biodiesel, but religious nutters are concerned about Mary Jane and politicos are bought off by corporate farmers to adopt that sensible solution. Brazil is now energy self-sufficient because it had the sense to take action a decade ago. You were stupid enough to vote for GWB.


Beastie Boy
- except that 19,000 American scientists have signed a petition (which with a little research you can find on the web) in opposition to the AGW theory. You'll find my name on that list, signed with the background of almost thirty years of professional involvement with the issue. I know some of the people in my state, CT, who also are signatories. They're excellent scientists - mostly in various universities around the state.

AGW is popular, but it's poor science.

Beastie Boy
I am still waiting for you to come up and shovel the Global Warming out of my driveway. We had about 18 inches of Global Warning over the past 48 hours, and that was on top of the 2 foot drifts we already had that make the sidewalks impassable pretty much, for us proles who walk instead of drive.

One more big storm (due in a few weeks, with more to follow until May 1 in this area) and we will eclipse the all time record for snow in a single season which was set in 1938.

Today it is -15.

Global Warming has been cancelled. We now return your to regular Canadian Winter, already in progress.

Never Mind
Global Warming is a massive delusion precipitated by "do-gooders" and liberals who want to control peoples' lives. Even if it is happening there's no way it can be stopped. India and China, for example, are not going to stop expanding their economies that rely on the use of extensive energy, which will result in massive emissions of CO2 into the atmosphere.

I predict in 10 or 20 years when it is obvious even to the most suggestible "greenie" and Gore sycophant that the GW phenomena are a scam, we will have thousands of these deluded earth worshippers saying, in effect:

"Oh, never mind."

Another evironazis Delusion
One thing that you can take to the bank is this group of greenies really are green. They can be easily led and fed the poison Koolaid of the most ignorant of notions. My view is when they are all riding bikes and using candles, I'll take a good look at their chicken little story and blow by them in my big gas guzzing SUV. They talk the talk but don't live the life.
They think they are elites and don't have to conserve just the rest of us. Dissolve the EPA as we didn't turn our country over to them and they are NUTS

Austin Hill writes in part...
"...the abandoning of incandescent light bulbs in favor of much more expensive lighting..."

I pretty much agree with everything else in the article, but for the life of me I can't understand why he, along with Limbaugh and others, keep beating up on compact flurescent light bulbs. Yeah, they cost a little more than the incandescent kind, but the price has dropped dramatically: the first one I bought about five years ago was $6.00. Now you can buy a 4-pack at Wal-Mart for $7.80 (less than $2.00 each). Like anything else, the price will continue to drop as production ramps up. But, beyond price, the bulbs last twice as long as incandescents and consume less than one-fourth the energy. What is the agenda with these guys? It makes me skeptical of everything else they say.

Snow Covers GW Fanatics
Excellent post, AudiR10!

As a former Vermonter with family still living up there I heartily agree with your observations--it is true that this is one of the worst winters ever for the northern parts of the USA.

But I'm sure these real-life experiences will be tossed out because they don't fit into the GW fantics' worldview of imminent disaster.

It's the 21st Century but we still have "the-sky is-falling" folks with us.

"Green" energy
What boneheads like "Beastie Boy" can't grasp is (aside from math, obviously) is that all these so-called "green" or "alternative" energy "solutions" are not viable.

There is not enough of it, for one thing. When you compare the amount of energy one can get from "green" energy sources, whether it's measured in horsepower, BTUs, newtons, volts, amperes, etc, it's nowhere near enough to replace oil, natural gas and coal and still maintain our civilization, let alone the economy.

There is also the "inconvenient" fact that it frequently takes more energy to convert "bio(fill in the blank) into a usable form than you can get from it to start with.

Then there is wind and solar. Well, the wind does not blow all the time, nor does the Sun all the time on a given piece of real estate. And if you built enough of these to even make a dent in the country's energy needs, the same people who are screaming now about "globull warming" would start in on how all those horrible man-made machines are making too much noise, cause cancer (women and minorities hit hardest, of course), or threaten the "endangered" (insert the name of some obscure critter no one ever heard of before here).

i don't think mankind is doomed.
Given that Hillary or Obama would impose far more draconian measures on dealing with what they believe to be global warming than John McCain, I cannot understand the hostility of some here to McCain on that issue.

The democrats would be far worse, far more radical.

I have some problems with McCain, but criticing him on the basis that he will not damage our economy or industry as much Hillary or Obama in dealing with global warming, makes absolutely no sense.

If he were as radical as Hillary, would that cause some here to come around to his defense?

Ridiculous.

I believe technologies are available, or soon will be, that not only will result in extracting huge amounts of oil from areas deemed to be unavailable 20 years ago, but that technologies will also greatly eviscerate the problems with greenhouse gasses and pollutants given off by industry and transportation.

"Conventional wisdom", endorsed today by some scientists, predicting earth's demise unless radical measures are adopted to deal with global warming, is similar to "conventional wisdom"
endorsed by some scientists a few centuries back, predicting the sun revolved around the earth.

I think the hysteria is hyped.


ModMark
Well, I must confess that I am a conservative. To me that means just what the term "conservative" implies: "CONSERVE." I haven't bought in to the global warming scaremongering, but I am in favor of doing our best to conserve our resourses and stop the wanton pollution of the planet.

I believe that climate change is real --
Author makes the above statement. How DUMB. Of course it is real. Weather patterns change by the hour, day and year.

Our economy won't be able to AFFORD even McCain's insane babble.

More snow/ice cover this year . . . some evidence cooling has been occurring.

What dope have these environmental whackos and politicos been smoking? How much of a prostitute to pseudoscience can one be?

Beastie boy and hemp
Well, at least your hemp-burning explains your hallucinatory "facts" and non-existent "logic." The government is the source of our energy problems - it shouldn't be involved at all. It shouldn't be subsidizing oil or so-called "green" energy. They should rise or fall on their own merits. And that would be the Ron Paul position.

P.S. Trade some weed for a brain cell: if Bush wanted Iraqi oil he would have blasted Iraq back to the Stone Age and had the military go in and take it utterly unopposed.

"Green" energy con't
Nor can you compare what has been done somewhere else, like Australia, to the US. Sure, small fuel-efficient cars are all the rage there. But that's because they've been pay far higher gas prices there (and in Europe, where the same thing holds true) than we have. It's simple economics; given the price of gas, you buy the car you can afford to operate given the prevailing price of fuel.

Indeed, if people like BeastieBoy or JohnInOrgon were bothering to pay attention to anything other than their usual BDS-derived memes, they would notice the same thing happening here. Look at how many of the new cars on the road are these little fuel-sipping econo-boxes.

The truth is that the ONLY viable "alternative" energy source out there is nuclear. But we all know how the Lefties would respond to THAT idea. And there are still plenty of oil and gas reserves to be had here at home. Only problem is, BeastieBoy and his ilk have decreed we can't go for them. Why? Because they are in places like ANWR, or off the east and west coasts, or in places the previous administration (the Clintons) declared off-limits. Oh sure, they can still drill in the Gulf of Mexico (as long as it's not too close to Floriduh). But there's nobody of ni**ers and white trash living down there, so who cares? Certainly not our "blue-state" friends.

No, the reality is that they want our economy and culture set back about 100 years, because WE DESERVE IT, never mind how many millions would die worldwide as a result.


Um
Turns out that those cute swirly florescent light bulbs might also cause cancer, but what's a little cancer next to saving the planet? That's actually all florescents, not just the cute new ones.

Modmark
Whatever technologies are most productive, efficient, and cost effective.

Perhaps that will be crude oil, with advanced recovery methods, or perhaps electric.

Whichever is most cost effective and efficient.

Or maybe something completely different, not even on the horizon at the moment.

Who knows?

I don't place much stock in corn-based ethanal. I think that has been hyped, and used as a political tool to garner votes in Iowa and other states. Bush administration, and democrats, are both pushing this fuel. I don't see any future in it.

Brazilian ethanol, derived from sugarcane, is far more efficient than corn-based.

Plus there are problems with transporting ethanol, and also conventional means of extinguishing fires from ethanol(using water)do not work, from what I understand.

Ever notice
the bigger the holes you blow in the globull warming theory, the more shrill and strident it's disciples become? You'd think they'd be celebrating the report that last year was so cold it erased 100 years of warming, but no - whichever way they have to twist things, no matter how idiotic - it's always our fault and it can't be stopped.

Typical lib elitists, glean all those "facts" that agree with your lunacy and ignore, dismiss, and discredit those that don't. Really thoughtful and mature, huh? And so scientific!

Let's see, what should I take to church this AM - big Dodge pickup or old Cadillac? Maybe the truck as I have some of those useless flourescent bulbs to dispose of that burned out and I can't throw in the dumpster because these idiots who are forcing them down my throat never considered the law of unintended consequences and how in hell we're going to deal with all the mercury in the dam things.

Just like more people in the future, riding in tiny little tin cans for cars are going to be dying at increased rates because mandated fuel standards forced manufacturers to remove the protection and safety of more metal surrounding them.

You wait - they're trying to take away my guns so I won't be able to stop them from taking away my big truck, big car and big motorcycle.

God is making them look like bigger and bigger fools with each passing day. All we can do as humans is try out their stupid policies on Mars first. If restricting industry and SUV's there reverses the retreat of that planets icecap, we know it will work here on earth.

LAST ICE AGE ENDED 10,000 YEARS AGO

.....If the Earth follows natural climatic cycles, established over millions of years, then we are in the middle of a warming cycle and the next ice age should begin in about 10 to 15,000 years ...of course all of todays charatans and politicians will be gone by then so they really don't care about much besides their next election ...

.....Maybe it's just me but I think that an ice age would be a lot bigger problem than a few degree warmer temperature ...when it comes ...Manhattan will be pushed into the Atlantic by a mile high sheet of ice ...I want to see puny man and his pes brained theories stop that .....COLOSSUS

Gotta love it...
And I wonder how much energy it takes to pump that cold water from Lake Ontario. Or more specifically, is there a net energy advantage to doing that as opposed to simply running an a/c system and/or chilling the water locally?

One thing we DO know is that it still takes more energy to produce hydrogen in a usable form than you can get out of it in your car or whatever.


Doom and Gloom...
Doom and Gloom...There's gold in them thar hills.

If one takes a walk through the comtemporary literature during the past couple of decades, one will find dozens of 'crises' that have put us on a path of certain destruction. Some may point out that the arguments already have been made, but the point is still valid. First, let's just take a look at health:

HIV was supposed to wipe out most of the earth's population by 2050.
SARS was the new pandemic. They even stopped flights to Asia.
West Nile Virus was called a plague.
And now, Avian (bird) Flu is the one that is on the verge of decimating the planet.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Next, technology...

Atomic weapons made us scurry with duck and covers in grade school.
Cell phones caused brain tumors.
Y2K was certainly going to cause planes to fall out of the sky.

Now we have global climate change. That is because the ice age of the 1970s didn't pan out. Then it bacame hard to sell global warming in light of this fact, and now we have changed the crisis to something that 'better fit the facts'.

Now I am not saying the earth is not warming up, it most likely is. But correlation is not causation. Given the historical reality that the earth warmed up and cooled off, giving us several ice ages even before man walked erect, it is reasonable to believe that it will happen again.

So everyone take a deep breath....take a walk over to the library and just do a perusal of the covers of Time magazine over the last 50 years, and see if you still think we have another 'Crisis'. And if you think we do, what makes THIS one, the one that is real?

Earth, Mars, and other
solar system temperatures are dependent on the sun's radiation.

There is a theory among cosmologists and geologists that the earth was once entirely covered by ice, as there are glacial markings on equatorial rocks. What could have caused such an aberration? No one knows.

I'll guess and say lowered radiation by the sun for some indeterminate period, our position in the galaxy, which is constantly moving and does have such interstellar variations as space dust and debris, and or some blockage of the sun's rays, such as the catastrophe theories of creation.

Regardless, from each of our three or six or ten ice ages, the earth managed to warm and without help from SUV exhaust or coal-fired power plants in China.

The earth has its own processes, many of which we have probably not yer identified, and of those we have, gadzillions are still misunderstood. The MGW ado is a perfect example of the latter.

BRIAN R

.....I know you live in Kalifornia so I feel your pain ...your State is a looney magnet where people go to Court over whether solar panels have the right of way over trees on your neighbors land ...

.....But if I am in a leaky lifeboat in the North Sea (The Republican Party) ...I don't think that the best solution is to sink the boat ...

.....I don't follow your logic that it is better to let the Democrats ruin the Country so that they will be blamed for it ...the final result is that the Country gets ruined ...

.....If Obammy/Hillary is in the White House with Democrat majorities in both Houses then the Republicans in Congress will have no power to stop anything ....At least with McCain and enough Republicans in Congress ...the rank and file can put pressure on their Representatives to prevail upon Mccain to veto harmful Legislation ...McCain is half a loaf ...but the alternative is starvation ...

.....I don't want to sink the boat ...I want to repair the leaks .....COLOSSUS

Stipulate the dogma = lose the game
The basic problem w/ McCain's position, while perhaps more reasonable in its inception, is that it still stipulates that generating CO2 is bad per se & government action that amounts to artifical cost increases/taxes, & rationing, are necessary to avert some sort of disaster.

It's the slippery slope problem, comparable to the Endangered Species Act. The public was told the ESA would prevent poaching and hunting of a set number of popular photogenic animals. The fine print was then construed into an open-ended mandate to take the use of (but usually not title to) private property, & to shut down entire industries. Quite often it was used as a proxy to advance the agendas of earth-worshippers (stop logging) & green commies (destroy the institution of private real property).

A "climate change" doctrine that in any way leads to government rationing or licensing of the right to emit carbon dioxide (a naturally occuring gas that is harmless in small amounts, even essential to life up to a point) would be an Endangered Species Act on 'roids in terms of giving the green commie ruling elite, the Gaiaists, & the neoluddites control of our lives & a pipeline into our pockets. Even if it started very small, it would grow quickly once its basic presumptions are stipulated.

The "carbon credits trading" schemes are not truly free market because the rulers will arbitrarily decide who has the right to emit how much, & how many "carbon credits" are awarded or needed by whom. It's a market in whims and abstractions.

A conservative position on climate change would NOT be a dogmatic denial across the board that it is possible. Rather, it refrain from doing anything in its name that could not be PROVEN to help more than it would hurt, & would encourage energy that emits less or none in porportion to the perceived demonstrable hazard.

@ModMark
"And it does pleases me so to see a conservative who thinks instead of following the party line."

One more sophist quote from one of the biggest sophists in this thread. Mark, post after post you come up with the most glittering jewels of idiocy and you never seem to notice that we are snickering at you.

You do realize that the GOP "party line" is that AGW is real and it can be stopped by imposing a carbon credit system don't you? This is the same "party line" as the Dems are pushing and, if you read your own drivel, that YOU are pushing.

There is ZERO, ZIP, nada evidence for C02 induced AGW. C02 increases FOLLOW warming. This is a scientific fact.

AGW is an Emperor's New Science. You and the rest of the lemmings are predictably falling in line leaving a few thoughtful Americans to point out that you're standing there in your underwear.

By the way, there are several new studies out indicating that we are moving into a global cooling cycle (due to decreased output from Mr. Sun). Will you advocate for increased C02 production by man in order to reverse this trend?

Man Made Global warming
Man-Made Global warming is a crock! Since both the Dems & Repubs support this line of bulls*t,
maybe I'll sit this one out. Let the Dems win, sink the ship, we can blame them and maybe come up with a third party that can kick these 2 corrupt parties out once and for all.
I know, I know - wishful thinking!

Austin Hill writes:
"And by now, it’s like [sic] that most thoughtful Americans have at a minimum been introduced to the idea that the earth’s average temperature is on the rise, and that this is a bad thing, and that this bad thing is brought about by human activity."

I think this paragraph needs editing (in caps):

"And by now, it’s likely that most thoughtful Americans have at a minimum been introduced to the idea that the earth’s average temperature is THOUGHT TO BE on the rise,

BUT GIVEN THAT MEASUREMENT SYSTEMS FOR TRACKING WARMING ARE OFTEN FAULTY, THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE,

and that this is POSSIBLY a bad thing

ALTHOUGH IT COULD BE A VERY GOOD THING GIVEN THAT THE EARTH WAS WARMER IN THE RECENT PAST AND SAID WARMING INTRODUCED THE WORLD TO MODERN CIVILIZATION,

and that this SUPPOSEDLY bad thing is brought about by human activity,

ALTHOUGH PROBABLY NOT GIVEN THAT THE SUN IS WHAT IS CAUSING THE WARMING, NOT C02.

YLG
Your 10:26 post is excellent - factual, logical and reasonable.

What really gets my goat is this human arrogance that what we have today in the "optimal" or "perfect" climate.

Who says? Maybe the "perfect" climate IS a couple of degrees warmer.

And then there is the human arrogance that believes we could actually positively affect the climate while avoiding negative, unintended consequences. Judging by the political bent of AGW's leading proponents, their track record ain't so good on this score.

man-made
I thought I was taught long a go in science classes that animals use oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, and it seems to me I have read of some scientists concluding that global warming has more than a little to do with the increase in animal populations on earth, coupled with the loss of larger forms of plants which use carbon dioxide and emit oxygen.
The population of humans on the planet has increased from around 1,650,000,000 at beginning of the 20th century to around 6,280,000,000 in 2005; now this is accompanied by massive increases in cattle and other forms of animal stock used for human food sources and the decreasing of atmospheric balancing larger plant life.
I say if we kill off Al Gore and the rest of the worthless humans like him and plant more tree farms (I think we could start with hemp farms for the beneficial fiber uses), out global warming problem will be solved (well absent those pesky volcanos errupting and screwing everything up).

Global Warming -- not so fast there

In case you missed it, the four major temperature tracking services all acknowledge a temperature DECREASE of ~0.65C over the past year. At one time this winter, 60% of the North American land mass was covered in snow and ice. This wipes out that pesky 0.6C rise over the last century that everyone has been in such a lather about. The climate changes, pretty much independently of what we do -- worldwide energy generation is on the order of 1/10,000 of effective solar input .. power engineers would call that negligible.

Alternative energy sources that are inherently low density, such as wind and photovoltaics, are not economically viable and cannot produce sufficient energy to supplant petrochemicals. The only high-density energy option that is economically viable is nuclear. Nitwit organizations such as ACORN and WWF (no, not the wrestlers, but the tactics are the same) are largely to blame for the ponderous regulation and the abuse of the court system to frustrate progress.

Time to get with the program, people. Civilization is a pretty good gig, and most of us would have no clue how to survive without it, including the luddites.

Primus54
Good morning!!

Thanks for your kind words. I am just tired of the constant "State of Fear" that runs us into the ground.

How about DDT? Acid rain? Mad-cow disease?

As for moi, the perfect temp is 82* F, which is 28* C. Sunny skies, with regular afternoon showers.....

That's what I had growing up in PR!!!

ModMark
I find much to agree with you in your 11:06 to YLG - in that there is much to gain by research and development of alternative energy sources. The fact is, eventually non-renewable energy will be depleted, yet human beings will still need energy.

But what I do not countenance is creating a non-existent bogeyman to force us into costly and premature decisions, monetarily AND politically.

This is why your posts are valueles Mark
You write: "Instead of worrying about the cause, look at the benefits."

This is insane. You are dismissing the reality of the situation (that solar output is what is affecting the global temp) and coming up with solutions based upon faulty science and then you claim it doesn't matter???

"Hey, who knows if the earth is flat but let's come up with a transportation system that takes this into account."

:rollseyes:

Let me boil it down for you Mark: The best energy we have on this planet is OIL. It is versatile, in abundant supply, its cheap, it is getting cleaner to use, it has little dangerous waste byproducts, and it is a well understood fuel source.

Pushing nukes, biofuels, solar, wind, hydrogen, etc. for transportation are fool's errands given that we have OIL.

The reason that the socialists oppose oil is because it makes freedom possible. It allows people to drive where they want to go, it allows people to buy plastic products that are inexpensive, it allows for all kinds of modern technology that we would never have without it.

The US has vast untapped oil reserves that, which, were we to announce tomorrow we were going to go after, the price of crude would drop by MORE than $30 a barrel and Venezuela and Iran would no longer have any power over us.

Let's use our technological prowess to find more oil and use it more efficiently. THAT is the solution.

Most of you are blithering idiots
Here's something that virtually EVERYONE overlooks: what is considerd a 'fact' at one point in time is frequently considered a fairy tale later.

A few simple examples:

1) It was a 'fact' that the world was the center of the universe and was flat.

2) In high school I was taught that it was a 'fact' that the smallest partices of matter were protons, neutron, and electrons. (Now there's quarks and strings.)

3) In the 1800's scientists at an 'august body' (I belive it was the Royal Society, but I'm not positive) listed 10 'facts' that science could never know. On that list was the compostion of the sun. Less than 10 years later helium was discovered - in the sun (it was even named for the sun).

There are numerous other examples (others please help me list the best ones) where 'facts' have changed.

By rushing in to correct problems based on 'facts' to quickly we have a VERY STRONG probablitily of making the situaton worse.
Classic example, there were numerous complaints about the polution and smell from the prevelent mode of transportation around the turn of the century. The proposed solution was for more automobiles and less horses. True that did reduce the amunt of horse poop on the streets and the associated stench from that, but overall which is worse - horse poop or auto emmissions?

Again, your help in listing a few more examples would be appraciated.

Maybe by this appraoch we can get the 'global warmers' to think... well, we can dream can't we?



Agree

I think Austin’s premise is that he supports McCain’s moderate view on global warming. It’s amazing how these threads morph.

I’m inclined to agree with the article. McCain’s position on this issue more or less reflects a moderate view. There’s probably a bit of truth in most of the postings…left and right. Pick out those bits and sew them together and you end up somewhere nearer the middle than either end.

Robert
THERE YOU ARE!!!

I thought you were trying to debate the finer points of grammar and syntax over at the Bellavia thread.

Hmmmm.....still not finding the "SpellCheck" button, I see....

al gore's belief
Since al gore is such a dedicated believer in saving the world, he'll certainly donate all the money he makes of of global warming to help make the world a better place - right?

ModMark
ModMark says: "The political benefits are great if we can drop our demand for oil even by 10%. We will not end this war against these Islamic crazies while we keep sending them a check every month for oil."

Oil is not forever. We need new sources of energy. Conservatives DO understand that Mark.

Now, I'm going to ask you to think "instead of following the party line". The quickest way the US can gain some energy independence is to get back in the oil business. Those other technologies are on the way, but right now we need oil, and we need refinery capacity.

It's not about driving SUV's; it's about heating and lighting our homes; about powering the industries that provide our necessities. Do you realize that we import 13% of our gasoline? We need to catch up on the current technology while we develop alternatives.

Those "Islamic crazies" are in a position to shut our country down if they take a notion to. How much alternative energy research do you suppose we could do while freezing in the dark?

Excellent Posts, Deep Thought 42
No need to call idiots idiots, though.

Minky--what makes you think oil is not forever? Some scientists think otherwise. Stop getting sucked into the hysteria.

it got your attention
That was the purpose of the heading. However, I think that as a generalization it was correct. Most people blindly take one side or the other without stepping back and looking at the whole situation in the context of history.

To do so is, to a large degree, idiotic - even if you end up being correct.

Global McCain or Obama...

I'm starting to think McCain will destroy the US economy just as quick as Obama.

So, why wouldn't I help Republicans by voting for Obama? The next 4 years will leave us all in disgust of Washington, so why not let Obama and the Democrats take the blame?

You know... I'll vote like a "Maverick".

So predictable - Robert
Yes - like a breakfast without orange juice, a day (or even a thread) without a glass of your Bush Derangement Syndrome would cause a rift in the space-time continuum.

And I just LOVE it when you lecture the "far right" and "far left" and, by inference, place yourself squarely in the "middle" where you can join the millions and millions of like-minded people, who, by and large, are just politically disinterested.

Even though I know you to be a leftist poser spewing faux conservatism, your "centrist" arguments cause me to ask if you can name the hundreds and hundreds of biographies written on the "Great Moderates" in US history?

As much as it would please me to see you in a permanent state of "Google-Loop", aka, circular reference, let me save you the time - you won't find any.

YLG writes: Robert...THERE YOU ARE!!!


Yeah, wobbie still has not found the "SpellCheck" button, and he's still absolutely obsess with my spelling error MONTHS AND MONTHS ago...

He shows ALL the signs of being OCPD, among many other mental disorders.....

Poor wretched little creature!



Bballdoc, to continue your analogy
If you want to fix the leaks on a boat, it's a good thing if you get to dry land first.

As a conservative, the choice I'm offered is akin to having to decide wheether I want to be boiled in oil or shot at the stake; neither's a pleasant prospect, and the end result is the same.

We've had FOUR elections in which the GOP candidate has been plugged as the "lesser of evils"! FOUR! Bush 1's relection, Dole, and Bush 2's administration. This is number FIVE!

Is that the best the GOP can do? "Hey, we're pretty bad, but the other guy's even worse".

Not much of a strategy, if you ask me.


McCain and climate change
"sort out the Believers” from the “non-believers.” Sounds like a phrase I hear in my Baptist church. Climate change is based on science. But the belief card sure gets played a lot. Either you do or you don't and each side has a list of scientists to trot out that espouses their belief. Same with the amount of oil yet to be discovered.

As for the oil argument, if as some of these readers believe, there is limitless supplies to be discovered in the US why did we invade Iraq? The UN inspector that was working Iraq said at the time there were no WMD's there. But no mind that we invaded. So that pretty well leaves oil as the explanation.

With a republican president and a compliant republican dominated congress that rubber stamped every thing he wanted to do, why didn't they toss out the environment regulations and go drill. Sure would have been cheaper and a lot of brave young men would still be alive and unmaimed.

Bush is an oil man. He probably knows there not much left to be discovered and went for the really rich sources.



DeepThought, here's the
list I typically use, "science" on which there was "consensus". These were all the scientific dogma of their day:


The Earth is flat.

The Sun and the Universe revolve around the Earth.

If trains ever exceed 20 MPH, the passengers will suffocate as the air in the cars won’t be able to keep up.

There are canals of water on Mars.

There’s air all the way from the Earth to the Moon.

The speed of sound is an impenetrable barrier.

There are dragons and sea monsters in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

The atom is the smallest particle.

Malaria is caused by bad air (hence the name).

And there are many others. Consensus is overrated.


LOL, chicaree
No one denies that climate changes; of COURSE it does. The climate is a dynamic system, not a static one.

The nonsense is that Man is the determinate factor in that change. It's ludicrous and hubristic beyond comprehension.

Ten thousand years ago, LA was covered under a massive sheet of permanent ice; woolly mammoths and sabre-toothed cats were common indigenous fauna here.

It's a good thing the climate changed. Our freeways are bad enough without having to deal with mammoths wandering all over the roadway; people would be getting pretty annoyed with sabre-tooths snatching their pets from the back yard.


other changes in 'facts'
Medical people (I won't call them doctors) used to 'cure' things like anemia by letting blood or leeches.

Eggs were good for you, then they were bad for you, then good again... I don't know whether they are now 'known' to be good or bad (perhaps the eggs have changed over time).

Republicans are fiscally conservative and want small government and individual freedom (with the inherent personal responsibility that implies).

and a whole lot more....

Be VERY careful of 'what everyone knows'.


ModMark
I just want to make sure I totally understand your arguments.

You want to reduce our demand for foreign oil by 10% so that the "Islamic crazies" won't have us over a barrel, but you don't believe that the best way to achieve that is by producing our own. On the other hand, even if we do drill like crazy in the US, they still have us over a barrel, right?

We're importing 13% of our gasoline, but I'm overplaing the refinery capacity issue. On the other hand we should streamline the process of building new refineries even though we don't need them, right?


Robert:
some posters have stated that you were an airline pilot---what airline was that?

Science consensus
There are canals of water on Mars.
There’s air all the way from the Earth to the Moon.
The speed of sound is an impenetrable barrier.

Yes and those were changed as more and more research clarified what was happening. with Climate Change which is thoroughly being researched, it is becoming clearer and clearer that the original theories were right but flawed. They were wrong about the speed at the earth responded to the heat being trapped. 21/2 decades of intensive research is sorting things out.



Not at all, chicaree
What is being "clarified" is that Man has virtually no influence on the climatological trends. They are massive and natural.

Last night on History Channel there was a show entitled "How the Earth Was Made", and it outlined the history of the earth over the 4.5 billion years since it began.

Many climatological and geological experts were featured, and what was startlingly clear from the presentation was that Man isn't even a gnat on an elephant's butt as far as climatological impact goes.

Here's an example: the Atlantic is still spreading, and the Americas and Europe are pulling apart at the rate of 1 inch per year. That will be over six feet in one person's lifetime. That is a MASSIVE shift of entire continents, and Man has no impact on that at all. But ultimately, it will lead to huge shifts in oceanic currents, including the Gulf Stream, and there's not one single thing we can do about it.

Ten thousand years ago, as I earlier wrote, NYC, LA, Seattle, all were covered under permanent sheets of ice a couple thousand feet thick. Ten thousand years is a mere blink of the eye in geological time.

We're in one of the most stable climatological periods in Earth's entire history.... but it's not permanent in any way.

Change is the norm, not the exception. That's what I mean when I say the whole AGW theory is hubristic.

Hell, the computer models don't even factor in precipitation........ simple RAIN!

Hey Brian: Well said, as usual...

Unfortunately, modmark and the rest are either incapable of, or refuse to see it...

Either way, they're going to believe the gloBULL warming hoax for ever!

BTW, my cousin called from upstate NY to let me know they got about 8" of gloBULL warming yesterday.... LOL




ModMark, I didn't
sidestep at all; I made it perfectly clear in my posts that man is having no impact at all on climatological change. It's a natural process.

How could you possibly call that "sidestepping"?

Let me quote my last post: "Man isn't even a gnat on an elephant's butt as far as climatological impact goes."

How much clearer could I possibly be?

You call what happened "20,000 years ago" (I wrote 10,000) irrelevant?

Yes, I guess it is if your agenda is to try to legitimize the AGW nonsense.

But I hate to tell you that the Earth's history is VERY relevant in assessing that assertion, particularly when that history shows the entire theory to be absurd.

You guys try to push this theory in SPITE of history; and I'll again bring to your attention that in geological terms, though you seem to think 10,000 or 20,000 years makes something irrelevant, when you put it in human terms that's like trying to make the point that the car that ran you over two seconds ago has no bearing on the condition of your life this second.

You don't have a science background, do you?



Heh heh, Anne
Yeah, I've been waiting for some of that warming, so I can go to the range. Pretty chilly here in LA recently, though not as chilly as it was 10,000 years ago.

Part of the hubris of the theory is also that change is somehow inherently BAD. That somehow we can superglue our climate to what it is NOW, which will somehow be better than THEN.

The whole idea is simply astounding in it's childishness and naivete.


Well, ModMark
You wrote: "I could care little about the science."


Yes, that's pretty obvious.

McCain
What I find astounding about McCain is that he is out preaching about making tax cuts permanent and deregulating business but has McCain/Lieberman bill on the floor of the Senate!

Just another pandering politician that talks out both sides of his mouth.

BrianR
This is one person who does care about the science especially when it used to bludgeon tax payers out of their paychecks.

Why is it no one cares about the science in regards to energy? The alternative pie-in-the-sky energy cannot do the job or fit the bill.

Oh I know now...it isn't about saving the planet or getting away from the terrorists it is about power and controlling the masses.

And the sheep will be sheared!
BIG business has already invested too much in this AGW HOAX to just write it off.
They will buy enough of our Congress to stuff it up our butts even while we protest the scam.

They are already throwing away tax money on it!

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/republicans-upset-with- carbon-offsets-2008-01-31.html

Only people too lazy to think for themselves are deceived by the AGW hoax!

Lolo, Sarge
Good points both.

Sarge, you're right about the politician-speak of "incentivize"; dead on the money.

It's just like here in California, where since we passed a proposition that requires all new taxes to be approved by a 60% vote, taxes are now called "fees", and levied by the political hacks willy-nilly.

Just like the Clintons stopped using the words "increase taxes" and substituted "increase our investment".

Also like McCain holds that "amnesty" isn't "amnesty" because the illegal aliens would have to pay a nominal fine.



How do you tell a politician's lying? His lips are moving.

Well, ModMark
I have to say that your assertion that geological history is irrelevant to the climate discussion leaves me speechless.

Pretty hard to address willful ignorance.

CincyKid
I addressed this when you posted it on another column yesterday.

SCOTUS is a bogus election issue which I analyzed in depth on my blog here: http://viewfromtheisland.blogtownhall.com/2008/01/29/the_e lection_and_the_supreme_court.thtml


ModMark
Here is an example of Progressive Government's attempt at alternate fuels.
http://businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20080228112444.as px

Liberals whine about dependence on foreign oil yet block attempts to drill for domestic oil.
Liberals whine about people in foreign lands not liking Americans.
Liberals whine about "Global Warming & Carbon Footprints".

Liberal solution? Ethanol.

Now we depend on corn imported from Mexico.
Now the Mexican people are angry because we have taken their food and driven prices up.
Burning ethanol produces just as much carbon per gallon as petroleum but gets much less mileage and therefore more carbon is produced.

SCIENCE?
You should take the time to learn enough about the substance you advocate as a substitute for gasoline.
Hydrogen requires more fossil fuel to produce than the energy it contains and it is a very dangerous substance.
Hindenberg disaster ring a bell?

BrianR
What about regular history?

History is riddles with weather dooms dayers and none of them have ever come to fruition.

So forgive me if I am more than a tad skeptical at Global Warming.

Algore & Followers Are Bunko Artists!
To all the global warming nuts, ModMark & Michigander especially: Law enforcement has a term for Algore & others like him who make pots of money off fools with big lies like global warming. It's called bunko & all you fools out there getting rid of your incandescent light bulbs (Michigander) & installing those MERCURY filled compact fluorescent bulbs in your homes are all dupes of the worst kind! Tell me Michigander, who going to pay the EPA the several thousand dollars it's going to cost for the NECESSARY clean up when you break one of those bulbs & get Mercury throughout your home?! It's not going to be the taxpayers sir, it's going to be YOU! This has already happened to several people, but the drive-by media is not going to report this because it doesn't fit the Algore global warming template they subscribe to! Just remember Michigander, Mercury is classified as a hazardous waste and you better not try cleaning up that broken bulb yourself unless you really want cancer! Think Algore will pay for your radiation treatments?! It's time to wake up & realize Algore & his followers are no different than con men & they should be treated as such! Always remember folks, GOD CREATED THIS WORLD & ONLY GOD CAN DESTROY IT! Humans give themselves too much credit! Try as hard as you can, you'll never destroy anything created by a higher power than yourself! It's well past time for stiff fines & imprisonment for Algore & all his ignorant global warming troops who want to dictate to the masses what they can & cannot do while raking in millions doing it!!!

Lolo
You sure you meant to address that to me?

I also scoff at the AGW theory.


LOL, ModMark
I'm with you on the nuclear plant.


BrianR
Yes I was being sarcastic. I know you don't buy into Global Warming dear.

What I am pointing out is that you don't necessarily
need all the scientific history. Sometimes just plain old regular history suffices.

A little common sense never hurts either. If man is like all living creatures and adapts to his environment and the earth is also living doesn't it adapt as well? Or is it the only single living thing to never do so?

Greens won't trust market forces.
In answer to Beaslty Boob I'd like to point out that as far back as 1994 Algore was trying to get us all into some contraption that would get over 50mpg highway. That means driving an inefficient and overpriced hybrid or a "Smart" Car. In the latter case it means driving 45mph with your knees on your chest in a 1,200 lb. flimsy pedal pusher that can't survive a collision with anything bigger than a go kart.

Then flash forward to the CFL fiasco. I am not bad mouthing them. I have some because they burn most of the day and give me the light of a 150 watt light but use 22 watts. That's a CHOICE I made for MYself. I do NOT want to make that choice for anyone else nore do I want a gun put to my head to buy these turds that can't even be disposed of except in hazmat containers.

I wonder HOW much cash the makers of these things poured into the hands of receptive and friendly congress critters to get us here?

-Ray


Gotcha, Lolo!
Exactly.


modmark
The very first problem with the idea of "fixing" the AGW "crisis" is that there is nothing in the constitution which empowers the govt. to do so.
Our elected officials have strayed so far outside the enumerated powers that the constitution is in danger of becoming re-written behind closed doors, or merely "inconvenient".

Exactly, Wrat
Yet another issue I ddressed on my blog in depth, here: http://viewfromtheisland.blogtownhall.com/2008/01/02/light _bulbs_and_dim_bulbs.thtml

but the bottom line is that we are having our power of choice and the ability to make our own buying decisions pre-empted by government poo-bahs who "know better" what's "good for us" than we know for ourselves.

Hey, if someone WANTS to use CFLs, great! More power to them. I hate the things because I find the quality of the light they emit ugly, spelled U-G-L-Y.

I don't want some government mandarin telling me I have to use them; that's up to me.

Now that these repugnant laws have been passed in my state (Leftifornia) and also on the national level -- thanks to RINO El Presidente Jorge Bush -- I'll be ordering my incandescents from out of the country over the internet.

Just like I do with my cigarettes; I order them from the Indian tribes' on-line stores and have them shipped to me, thereby avoiding the punitive state taxes here in Leftifornia and saving myself about ten bucks a carton.


Climate "Change"
It happens four times a year 'round these parts. Its known as winter, spring, summer and fall...

Cincy
Yes, that error on my part was pointed out in the comments at the time I posted my blog; I shouldn't have relied on my memory, I guess.

And Cincy, I have to laugh when you address the issue of Kennedy's age of 72 being "old", while you're using SCOTUS as an issue in support of McCain.

Does the irony of that totally escape you? How old is McCain?

Let me help you out: 72 when he'd get sworn in.


Then your closing argument is pathetic: "If that is the case, then there is just as good a chance of McCain appointing an orginalist to the Court as there ..."

A "chance"? We're supposed to vote for McCain based on a "chance"? I thought your whole point is that McCain's The Man, the guy who's going to save us from a SCOTUS gone madly Left.

Your premise is pathetic and absurd, as I was too polite to point out before. But since politeness doesn't seem to register in your febrile mind, there you have it.


Real inconvenient truth
Latest climate data shows a .75 degree celsius cooling in the last year. Unfortunately for global warming cultists that data comes from the very sources they so often quote. NOAA, NCAR etc. D**n thats inconvenient!

The chicken littles screaming about global warming today are the one's that were guaranteeing the end of the planet with a new ice age just 30 years ago. So here's the real facts, NOT ONE SCIENTIST ON THE PLANET TODAY HAS FIGURED OUT GLOBAL CLIMATE AND WHY IT WORKS THE WAY IT DOES! THE ONLY THING THEY KNOW IS THAT IT CHANGES!

You pseudo-intellectuals out there who thing you know something that even the supposedly "learned" climate scientists can't get a handle on are just flipping delusional. Anyone that claims to have the amswers to global climate change are the worst kind of charlatans.


PS, Cincy
To appoint truly constructionist Justices, McCain would have to appoint people like Alito, who according to McCain "wears his conservatism on his sleeve" (that wasn't a compliment when he said it) and who would be the kind of Justices who would overturn McCain-Feingold.

Fat frikkin' chance of THAT ever happening.


DUDE!
Your comment wasn't even that good the first time, ten minutes ago; it didn't improve simply because you reposted it.

But since you did, I'll repost my replies:

Yes, that error on my part was pointed out in the comments at the time I posted my blog; I shouldn't have relied on my memory, I guess.

And Cincy, I have to laugh when you address the issue of Kennedy's age of 72 being "old", while you're using SCOTUS as an issue in support of McCain.

Does the irony of that totally escape you? How old is McCain?

Let me help you out: 72 when he'd get sworn in.


Then your closing argument is pathetic: "If that is the case, then there is just as good a chance of McCain appointing an orginalist to the Court as there ..."

A "chance"? We're supposed to vote for McCain based on a "chance"? I thought your whole point is that McCain's The Man, the guy who's going to save us from a SCOTUS gone madly Left.

Your premise is pathetic and absurd, as I was too polite to point out before. But since politeness doesn't seem to register in your febrile mind, there you have it.

Further, To appoint truly constructionist Justices, McCain would have to appoint people like Alito, who according to McCain "wears his conservatism on his sleeve" (that wasn't a compliment when he said it) and who would be the kind of Justices who would overturn McCain-Feingold.

Fat frikkin' chance of THAT ever happening.


cin kid-
JM has attempted 4 times in the last 15 years to push extra-constitutional legislation through the congress; either as a signatory or by direct legislation.
The idea that he's less of a constitutional threat that HC or BO is naive at best when you can plainly see how many times he's ignored the enumerated powers.
HC has signed on to 1, and BO hasn't had the opportunity to yet.
Extra-constitutional tally so far;
JM=4.
HC=1.
BO=0.
Tell me again how JM will defend the Constitution- nay, tell yourself again, I don't believe it.

Hahahahahaha, Cincy!
YOU are the one who raised that age factor, bud!

Ad you complain about "misrepresenting" your argument after you take some quotes out of my rather long blog essay on the subject and totally misrepresent the context of THOSE comments?

Bud, you don't have a clue, do you?

Hahahahaha, Cincy!
Too funny. You couldn't teach me anything, bud, and I LOVE it when people like you start calling me "retard" and other such lovely names; it clearly shows they're out of intellectual ammo.

Let me explain for you, in simple terms, how the appointments are a crapshoot, and a truly conservative Prez -- which is NOT McCain -- has a better chance of appointing one who ends up truly constructionist.

It has to do with where the starting point is. A President is going to try to appoint Justices who reflect his own philosophy. That's the starting point. Obviously, it doesn't always work, just as O'Connor was a diappointment from Reagan.

But when the starting point is ALREADY to the left, as it will be with McCain, it's much more likely the Justice will end up even more leftist, if they're going to "evolve" their philosophy. I can't think of a single example of a Justice becoming more conservative as time passes; not one.

Further, as I wrote earlier, no way will McCain nominate the kind of justices who would throw out McCain-Feingold, which is the worst assault on the First Amendment in our nation's history. So, our starting point is already to the left of where it should be if we're looking for real constructionists and originalists.

"He wear his conservatism on his sleeve", McCain "insulting" Alito.

No backstroke, bud; that's your answer. Clear, concise, rational. As opposed to the mindless cheerleading you try to pass off as serious analysis.



Random Thoughts
(1) Biogenic Theory vs Abiogenic:
If fossils were responsible for the formation of hydrocarbons, how did T-Rex and his buds manage to bury themselves 30,000 feet below the earth's surface? Mikhail Lomonosov could only theorize based on what he knew at the time. And in his time, man was not mining much deeper than a few hundred feet.
(2) During the last 12 months the earth's average temperature has dropped almost as much as the global warming hysterics have claimed it has risen over the past century. Now if man, according to that colossal jewel of ignorance albore, is responsible for global warming isn't man responsible for the cooling, hmmm?
(3)Peak Oil
Man occupies approximately 5% of the world's surface, has explored virtually none of the ocean and less than a quarter of the land mass. Yet we are to take at face value an estimate with no scientific evidence just "We've got to quit using oil for the sake of the planet.
(4) Do as I say not as I do - albore
When the neo-communists stop driving their cars, quit building and living in 20,000 sq ft homes, fly in commercial aircraft, in other words, live as though they were in the 18th century for 40 years and by doing so are able to prove man is responsible for global warming then and only then will I join them.
(5) Don't you love this one
After all is said and done and the neo-communists have been decimated with facts and science here is the final respone: "So what if it's not real. What's it going to hurt?

Yes, weownthenight
Your last sentence is the absolute capper; that's the one that really cracks me up, every time.

"What can it hurt?"

Uh... the economy, our standard of living, our ability to make choices for ourselves, the costs of goods and services.... pretty much everything we take for granted as people living in an age of industrialism and mass production.

Well, Cincy
It's nice that you feel sorry for me. Doesn't make your posts any more sensical, though, sorry to say.

Your example of White is interesting, but invalid, because back when Kenedy was President, the political landscape was decidedly different from today. Today, JFK and his ideology would make him a pretty conservative Republican; as a matter of fact, MORE conservative than McCain. So, all you're doing is proving my point.

As to your disagreement with my premise that a President will try to appoint Justices that reflect his own views, the only thing I can say to you is either you're from another planet where the sentient life forms are in the habit of appointing their ideological foes to positions of authority, or you are absolutely ignorant of human nature. That was truly one of the single most bizarre statements I've ever read here.

Now, as to McCain-Feingold, I'd like to hear those "constitutional arguments" you say support it.

It's interesting that when challenged before the new Roberts court in Wisconsin Right To Life v. FEC, the Court threw out the challenged aspects of the law, ruling against the act and holding for Wisconsin RTL.

But please enlighten. I'll wait with baited breath, I'm sure.

ModMark
The plant's on backorder, but look for an estimated shipping date soon.

Pard, the idea is that climate is a dynamic system in a state of constant change. AGW theory is based on the premise that it's a static system in which Man is the determinative factor in change. The history -- even history as microscopically brief in geologic terms as 10,000 years -- clearly shows that Man isn't a factor at all, and the changes in climate the AGW hysterics squeal about are so minor as to not even be a blip on the scale of changes this planet regularly cycles through.

Cincy Kid: Well, actually Chief Justice

Warren Berger did... to a degree.

Toward the end of his tenure as Chief Justice, before he retired, he expressed concern about Roe and suggested that it was probably a big mistake...



It's simple people
After reading many post here I would like to sum up 2008 vote simply, this way...

McCain, Hillary, Obama = BIG government

Paul = small government

cincy...cake?
Hey, cincy you 2 dudes are getting me dizzy !
I always thought the nominee for s. court had to get through congress!? Well with a congress controlled by the demorats....hmmmmm? Do you 2 get the gist of what iam asking?
Cincy...What in he**(heck) heh heh heh
does that saying mean.......
cant have your cake and eat it? That has always sounded stupie to me? Why would i want a cake ..if i cant eat it!? Be cause iam on a diet?

Elvis

Another attempt to redefine conservatism
I am getting well fed up with TH columnists trying to twist and contort liberal policies in ways that they can use to claim these liberal policies are "conservative".

Hill writes:

"But fortunately, McCain casts a very different vision. ... “I believe that climate change is real…” ( it’s hard to disagree, so far as this statement goes); but from there asserts that good environmental policy and good economic policy are intertwined ..."

Notice how Hill completely avoids the question of whether gov't interference in the energy market is either good economic policy or good environmental policy. What amazes is he does this after previously noting that "...most of the temperature increase during this period occurred before 1940, while a majority of the carbon dioxide increase - - about 70% of it - - occurred after 1940."

Hill goes on quoting McCain:

"... the private sector can be incentivized to move away from fossil fuels."

Does Hill know what a "euphemism" is? The word "euphemism" is itself a euphemism. It comes from a word with Greek lineage that means "to lie". When Hill uses a euphemism like "incentivized", he is lying. What he really means is that big gov't is going to interfere with the market (again, or even more, depending how you look at it).

CO2 is NOT a pollutant. The so-called "evidence" that it is causing "climate change" is based almost entirely on the assumption that it causes "climate change". More "incentivi[zation]" by gov't just means more interference, more shortages, and higher prices.

Hill wants us to believe that McCain's intention to control the energy market is "incentiviz[ation]", not a monopoly. And he wants us to believe that it's a conservative policy because he calls it "incentiv[izing] intead of "control"

Another CINO gets published at TH.

No, Cincy
and for someone who claims to be so educated, you make the stupidest statements.

Listen, dolt (see? Now you've got ME doing it), I didn't at all discount White's conservative bent, and if you had an ounce of comprehension in your pea brain, you'd see that I clearly wrote that by TODAY'S STANDARDS JFK was a conservative and hence appointed someone else considered conservative by TODAY'S STANDARDS. And in his case, only sometimes, at that.

Now you can deny the nature of JFK's ideology all you want, but all it does is make you look even more foolish than before, if that's at all possible.

Other than that, your whole argument boils down to a simple "did not!" Very persuasive, and totally in conflict with common human nature, but hey; knock yourself out. You make about as much sense as Robert.

BTW, Mr PhD, still waiting for the "constitutional arguments" that support McCain-Feingold.

PhD.... Piled higher and Deeper, in your case, evidently.

LOL, ModMark
Make sure you get the right kind of uranium! U-235 won't do.

As to GW, the alarmists' position that the CO2 generated by Man is the determinative factor vastly oversimplifies the process. The earth itself simply SPEWS CO2 in vast amounts through the normal geothermal processes at work in and under the mantle.

Further, you have the "greenhouse gases" generated through normal biological processes on the surface: plants cycling O2 and CO2; animals producing methane through digestion; etc.

As CO2 levels increase, you get more abundant plant life, which in turn cycles it into oxygen through photosynthesis, etc., in a very complex interrelated chain.

These levels have been all over the map. The Carboniferous Period had vastly higher CO2 levels, and needless to say, not a human in sight, and none for the next 250 million years or so.

I don't think curbing SUV use is going to do a whole lot.

Hahahaha, Mark!
Oh, man, I can't stand those off-brands!

But, yep! It's the Senecas I get my smokes from; the price I quoted was for premium brand smokes.

I just love the idea alone that I'm beating Ah-nuld, Meathead, and the rest of those Sacramento fools out of ten bucks a carton in pure taxes.

Plus, of course, I like spending the money, too.

If they start selling the booze, too, I'm in!

Of course, I'm not sure how I'd get around the shipping restrictions on booze......

I'd need a friend in state, like......... you!



One-sided "balance"
"I['m] not a supporter of ethanol but, when the corn grows i[t] captures carbon."

When man cuts down trees and uses the lumber to build houses and furniture and uses the wood to make paper, that wood has "capture[d]" carbon when it was growing too. When man uses cotton and wool to make clothing, those fabrics "capture[d]" carbon when they were growing.

Every time man irrigates a desert, like California's central valley, he creates a new carbon sink. Every year the human population grows, taking even more carbon out of the atmosphere. And when people die they are buried, carbon and all.

So how come all this removal of carbon by man from the atmosphere, which was going on for centuries before the industrial revolution and the profligration of crude oil, never gave us anthropogenic global cooling?

And if the key to atmospheric temperature is CO2, who's going to keep track of all the pluses and minuses? The UN? Don't make me laugh.

Note the closing argument by Hill. McCain "wisely" makes it clear that the US will determine its own "environmental policy" (apparently under McCain our energy policy will be subordinate to environmentalism, not the other way around), not the UN.

Isn't this like having a "No Smoking" section in restaurant? Or a "No Peeing" section in a swimming pool? It's all the same atmosphere. What good will it do us to wreck our own economy worshipping at Al Gore's idol of AGW while the Chinese and Indians are spewing CO2 into the same atmosphere McCain pretends to protect?

AGW is a shamelessly political issue. And John McCain is an equally shameless politician. They fit together like a hand in a glove.

Hahahahahahaha, Cincy!
Too funny!

First, you are the one who started right in on the invective, and now you turn around and act like a victim.

You been taking lessons from Hillary?


Now you're "saving" your obviously non-existent pro-McCain-Feingold argument for "another thread"!

That was simply a hoot!

Cincinnati Kid
As a charter member of Townhall from when they first installed these comment threads, I believe I am in a unique position to judge the relative merits of the various debaters and am insightful in cutting through the words to get at the meat.

On that basis, I must say that if there were points given for writing the greatest number of words without really saying anything, you have it all over BrianR.

You remind me of a boxer who runs to the center of the ring - arms flailing in a constant stream of punches that land only the occasional side-swiping blow, but never lands the knock-out punch. To an observer - it looks flashy, but fails to achieve its objective.

BrianR on the other hand, continues to demonstrate that he knows how to inflict damage with the least effort.

It is like the Golden Glove champion of Peoria in a battle with Mohammad Ali in his prime...

You are WAY out of your league, Kid. But you are amusing to watch.

SENOR McCAIN
The Senator from Az. representing the Republican party nominee for the office of POTUS has a bit of a problem with Republican Speak and some of it has to do with the scam called Global Warming foisted upon this country by the likes of Algore and his silly scaremongers of course the UN (United Nitwits)has determined that this flim flam is so unique and unsubstantiated that they again are still willing to ride this conman's pony to the end of the rainbow and tax the world.

The kindly aged Senator has claimed, (I see'd with me on eyes) he has never disclosed what it was he witnessed but it must have been a humdinger or a Humvee'r. Personally if you have taken high school physics and been called a meathead, I am sure there would be enough data to ask and question the likes of Algore, the United Nitwits and the Senor from Az..I have this nagging distrust of all things RINO.

ModMark
PAY ATTENTION THIS TIME!
Your stupid remark about throwing a match into 15gal of gas?
Could you smell that gas?
Could you see that gas?
Would anyone other than a Liberal be stupid enough to throw a match into 15gal of gas?

Can you see hydrogen?
Does hydrogen soil the floor of a garage?
Would you get any warning in an underground parking garage before a spark from your wife's orlon sweater brought the building down on top of you?

Like I told you once before;
You should not advocate for/against substances you don't even know the nature of!

Aaaaaaaw, Cincy
Did "bogus" hurt your little feelings?

That, pard, isn't a personal insult. That's a comment on the nature of the argument you put forth.


As to your "argument" supporting McCain-Feingold, it would appear that your position, in spite of all your verbiage, isn't supported by SCOTUS in its Wisnconsin RTL ruling. As a matter of fact, they found AGAINST the exact argument you made. Here's the link: http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletype/archives/06-969_All. pdf

See for yourself. Evidently you're not quite the legal wizard you think you are.

Why don't you do all of us a favor and spare us from any more of your legal pontificating.


Heh heh heh, Primus
Cincy has spoken! You have made a spelling error. Therefore your entire post is worthless. Cincy has spoken!

Hahahahaha!

What a maroon.

Thanks, Primus.

THE CINNCINNATI KID

.....Don't forget that tomorrow, March 10TH, is National Appreciation Day for Abortion Providers ...

....This National day of recognition was created by executive order by Bill Clinton ...

.....I don't think you will see any parades or find the day marked on your calendar, unless you got the calendar from Planned Parenthood ...google it to get all the grisly details .....COLOSSUS

BrianR
I wrote myself a short note after my post to the "Kid", predicting his response.

I was dead on... predicting he'd tell us just how great a debater he is - in other words - more self-flagellation.

And our self-professed authority on all things doesn't seem to be aware that there are many "correct" ways to spell many of the names and root words in ME languages (is it Usama or Osama, for example). A cursory search will find different spellings for that false-prophet of Islam.

In the meantime, I see you destroyed him again with your SCOTUS link.

BTW, Kid. Since you like metaphors, I suggest you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Hahaha - a "maroon" is right. Sounds just like a liberal...

GOREBULL WARRING IS A HOAX
The reason that so much of this planet has had drought for so many centuries is that we’ve been in an ice age, and the water needed for normal condensation has been frozen into glaciers. Glaciers are frozen water needed as condensation for barren and frozen lands of this planet, causing drought and flooding. When glaciers melt, some water runs into the oceans. Some water thaws the ground below where the glacier was, and soaks into the ground. Some water evaporates into the upper atmosphere where it becomes normal rainfall for the whole world.

The heat of the sun, and the absence of cold from glaciers and sea ice will cause more water to be evaporated from the oceans, lakes, and rivers into the upper atmosphere than there presently is; and the winds will blow it evenly around the world, providing normal rainfall world-wide, even where there presently is drought, and barren and frozen land, preventing flooding.

The worldwide rainfall will cause long-dormant seeds in barren lands to sprout and grow into new plants; the best way to go green. The new plants will inhale carbon dioxide and exhale oxygen, which we breathe. There will be so many new plants, that we might have to increase the amount of carbon dioxide we generate, to provide enough for all of them

A glacier in Greenland is melting, returning the land to the way it was a millennium ago. Larger crop yields are already the result, and the codfish have returned. Put the UN there.

Snow fell before leaves, and a month before winter started. Parts of the country and the world have record low temperatures and record amounts of snow and ice. We’re entering another ice age. How soon will Greenland be frozen again and the codfish gone? We need global warming as soon as possible.

beastie boy
If algore had been elected in 2000, there wouldn't have been a 9/11. After 8 years of Clinton, the terrorists knew that Algore was one of them. That is why the Capitol was not attacked: The terrorists knew that half the people (the democ-rats) were theirs.

Absolutely, Primus
I've seen the Prophet's name spelled Mohammed, Muhammed, Mu'hammed, Muhammad, M'hammed, among others. And you're right: Usama, Osama, O'sama, U'sama.

It's all in trying to make a name written in Arabic translate phonetically to English, so it's open to a lot of different interpretations.

But it's pretty sad when the only thing a person can use to critique someone is a spelling issue, whether it's interpretive or simply a typo.

Lame-o.

BRIANR - ANALOGY

.....You wrote ...

"As a conservative, the choice I'm offered is akin to having to decide wheether I want to be boiled in oil or shot at the stake; neither's a pleasant prospect, and the end result is the same."

.....The analogy I see is a choice between being kneecapped with a SUPER HAWG .45 ...and getting a knee in the scrotum ...neither one is good but there is an obvious choice ...

.....Going back fifty eight years, we have had only one Conservative Republican in the White House ...IKE, NIXON, FORD, *REAGAN*, GHWB & GW ...one Conservative out of six ...not very good odds of coming up with another one anytime soon ...

..... All we can do is stay in the game and keep trying ...and in the meantime try to stem the tide of the barbarian hordes ...were bound to get lucky one of these days ...it took three straight RINO'S to get Reagan ...if we count GHWB, GW and McCain ...then the odds say that we are due for another Reagan after McCain .....COLOSSUS

Primus: I've WARNED numerous posters

NOT to take on BrianR...

My warnings were pretty pointed... "Be careful. BrianR knows what he's talking about. You're gonna lose!"

But do they listen? Noooo!

Do they lose? Yup! And usually BIG TIME!


Looks like Cincy Kid just hit the ever growing pile of losers! :-)



BrianR
Try Casius Clay.

Did I spell it right?

Gawd, Cincy!
You get lamer and lamer.

Did I write ANYWHERE that Wisconsin RTL was a comprehensive ruling on every aspect of McCain? No, I did not; I was quite specific in stating that it vacated certain aspects of the law in that specific ruling.

And to get back on topic -- if you're done flouting your ignorance of legal matters -- the thing that really delights me about that particular case is that McCain filed a brief in support of the FEC, and SCOTUS kicked him in the butt.

So, as I wrote at the start of the debate, I can be pretty confident that these are NOT the type of Justices McCain would consider nominating.

BrianR & Primus: Ok, you guys got it

NOW???

"It's called rational debate... " BrianR, you're just not playing by C-kid's rules, and apparently C-kid doesn't like it... Oooohhhhh!

But give him a break... he didn't know who he was up against... LOL






Bballdoc, Anne
LOL, Anne... thank you, ma'am.


Bballdoc... well, you have your analogy, and I have mine.

You're a party loyalist; I'm not.

Nothing wrong with that; I always urge everyone to consider carefully, then vote their conscience.

But the tack you and the other loyalists endorse won't lead to substantive improvement in the situation, IMO. It will lead to the Californiation of the country, which should send shivers down your spine.

This state's already a lost cause. Dead state walking. It's all over but the funeral.

Is that what you want for the entire country?




Reasonable?
Gee Austin, such when has McCain been open minded or reasonable? He sells out his own Party on a host of issues! Boring to name them all! He is on the climate change Al Gore chant. And of course, no Conservative in his ,or her right, mind will vote for this Liberal Halloween costumed Republican!

No, MyOp!
You spelled it wrong! It's "Cassius", not "Casius"!

To the doghouse for you! Your thoughts are meaningless! You are a worthless human being! You should be shot!


MyOp, those links
are ve-e-e-e-e-ery interesting.


ModMark
Hydrogen is not only FAR more dangerous than gasoline but it can't be used in present internal combustion engines because water would quickly contaminate oil in the crankcase.

We have fuels like butane, methane and natural gas, etc., that can be used in present engines.

modmark: The 6th time? And you STILL

don't get it???

Huh? Exactly WHAT PART don't you get?



@Cincy re: SCOTUS
Let me break it down for you Cincy: The current "tradition" in nominating SCOTUS candidates is WHO ARE THEY REPLACING? Have you not been paying attention?

The two most likely retirees are liberals and the next president, whomever he/she is will be driven to replace them with like candidates. That is, two libs.

If McCain is elected, and I am serious about this, look to see him nominate his Senate friend, Hillary Clinton, to the SCOTUS.

This will prove to all that he is still the true maverick that the press appointed him to be. He will prove that he is not beholden to the Right. It will be the consolation prize given to Hillary for not making it all the way to the presidency, and, if she is nominated, it will be repayment for not beating him up too much in the general.

Now, if Hillary is elected, she only serves for 4 years (at best). If McCain is elected, she serves on the SC for the rest of her pitiful life.

Hahahaha, Anne
Looks like you ticked off The Mighty Cincy!


Reminds me of the time
right after the fires out here in California when I got into a debate with another self-impressed legal "scholar", Akagi.

He ended up saying he wished I'd gotten burned up in the fires.

Truly a Kodak Moment.


Yuck.
Just the fact that there is no mention of: drilling for our own oil offshore in the Gulf of Mexico; and in Alaska; shale oil r & d; along with building modern refineries and other infrastructure improvements for energy demands such as nuclear -- no candidate at all mentions these obvious NEEDS of the nation, and that is ridiculous. The reality is that, for the forseeable future- 100+ years- our world will rely upon fossile fuels. Period. And nuclear power. But we don't do any of this. Now we don't even talk about it. All because of this fool's errand to try and affect the planet's enviroment. How vain; to think we could even do it in the first place. The planet is going to do what the planet does, regardless of us. Also- the sun is way more responsible for heating the earth than any of us. It's a bunch of over-hyped hooey.
I hate to say it, but if we would have all gotten behind Pres. Bush's ideas about energy production 8 years ago- namely Anwar and the Gulf drilling, as well as nuclear investment-- the markets would be totally different, and I'd wager that the American position would be much stronger. I know I made my support clear to anyone who would listen, rep.s and friends alike. But, no. The gutless and spineless Republican party - Sen.McCain, et.al.- chose to be influenced by our liberal Democratic friends and their deep pocketed enviro lobbyist pals. And don't rule out big corps like GE in the mix.
They love the whole light bulb b.s. everybody is falling for.

comments
People who don't get laid enough are comical.

Hahahaha, ModMark
I stand corrected.

BTW, I'm a very serious photographer, and if it's any consolation, I stuck with film exclusively until very recently, and I was -- and am -- a true Kodak devotee. It's the ONLY film I buy.

I still prefer film for many applications. The only upside to digital, IMO, is convenience and immediate results. It loses to film on any other basis.

I'm talking pro-level equipment, too, not those little point-and-shoot pocket cameras, so I get the best digital results possible.

ModMark
When I said hydrogen can't be used in PRESENT DAY autos I was not writing about prototypes on the drawing board for some time in the future.

Do you expect everyone in America to run out and buy all new vehicles so they can run on hydrogen?

Auto companies will build whatever there is a market for.
Hybreds are living proof there are people naive enough to buy anything ANYONE says is "Green"

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/ 200706/NAT20070613a.html

ModMark, re oil
You're leaving out of your equation oil tar sands and oil shale.

Absolutely immense reserves. The Athabasca fields in Canada are already in limited production, and we have the largest oil shale reserves in the world on the Eastern Slope of the Rockies; several trillion -- yes, TRILLION -- barrels in proven reserves. Enough to make us energy independant for generations. They're actually one of the largest proven oil reserves in the entire world.

The only obstacles to their development have been economic and political. The economic issue is essentially no longer an obstacle, as the current price of oil actually makes them viable; the Athabasca reserve of tar sands has proven that.

It's merely now an issue of politics.

Self-correction
of an error of magnitude.

I should have written "BILLION", not screamed out "TRILLION".

How embarrasing.....


RE-correcting myself
I just checked again, and my first post was correct; approximately 1.5 TRILLION barrels.


Okay... that's my story, and this time I'm sticking to it.........




BrianR: Don't mind modmark. He has cabin

fever since he's been buried under a RECORD NUMBER OF FEET of gloBULL warming... :-)








RE-correcting myself
I just checked again, and my first post was correct; approximately 1.5 - 2.6 TRILLION barrels.


Okay... that's my story, and this time I'm sticking to it.........




RE-correcting myself
I just checked again, and my first post was correct; approximately 1.5 - 2.6 TRILLION barrels.


Okay... that's my story, and this time I'm sticking to it.........




Well!
Sorry for the multiple posts. I didn't really think my comment was THAT important; I got that "couldn't access the page" screen.



LOL, Anne. Hate shoveling that "warming" residue; that's why I moved to, and stay in, Leftifornia.


Though when I moved here back in the 70s, it wasn't Leftifornia yet; we still had conservative state politicians in our future.

Now they're commemorated in pictures and other forgotten memorabilia buried in the archives.

Never thought I'd live to see the day........


One last post for the "Kid"
Sorry, "Kid" if I failed to play the game by your rules. But that just goes to further clarify my opinion that you sound like a liberal...

You're a McCainiac - I get it. You also claim to have been a Cincinnati GOP worker - very noble.

But if you were ever what I and many others call a "Reagan conservative", you have lost your way, for you have not only compromised several Conservative (not to be confused with "Republican") principles - you have turned into a whiny apologist reminiscent of the leftist trolls who prowl these halls.

You are also way too impressed with yourself - another trademark of the liberal elitists.

Indeed, other than being obviously better educated and having a grasp of spelling and grammar, your ego is right up there with "Robert", certainly not someone whom I'd wish to be compared.

Geeze BrianR: Looks like you're never

going to get rid of "The Whimpy Cincy."


Hahahahahaha, Cincy!
The day I REALLY consider you as "mighty" will be the day I admit I have Alzheimer's. That was irony, which obviously zinged right over your pointy little head.

And "assassinate (your) character"?

Dude...... there'd have to be something there to actually assassinate.

Let's see.... you have a PhD in PoliSci. According to your bio on your blog, you're a fireman. What happened? Why does that not compute? The quality of your "edumacation"? The fact that you're not really a fireman? You don't really have that PhD? What?

"Concede" the debate? You on crack? That's the most laughable thing you've written so far today.

Let me tell you something, schmuck. You do have a few brains, and we could have had a fun discussion. I do it all the time with folks here from all across the political spectrum. I'm doing it right now with Moderate Mark, and he and I have had lots of disagreements.

But you're an arrogant, self-impressed, pompous fool who starts right out on every discussion with put-downs and insults because you're obviously under the very mistaken impression that you're of a higher intellectual order than the rest of us peons here.

Time for your wake-up call. No one's impressed. Further, all you did was make yourself look like a jackass.

Don't believe me? Look at the comments here from other posters, and the number of them absolutely tripping all over themselves in support of your posts.


OOOOPS! There aren't any!

That should tell you something.

Primus, Anne
Anne, you crack me up.... and not the illegal substance, of course, to clarify for Cincy.


Primus, what makes you think he's "better edicated"? I don't buy that at all.

That's like conceding that Roberto actually knows how to really fly a full-sized airplane.

Defies belief.


Primus, apologies
You spelled "educated" correctly; I misspelled it in quoting you.


Someday, I'll get the hang of this English stuff.....

Or at least my keyboard.


Don't you guys want to save the World?
There will always be "useful idiots" who allow BIG business to USE them to sell some confidence scam.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A269381 4-7C12-4A21-B4FB-BC3BDA717658

HAY YEW GUYS!
Eye due da spellen korecting round hear!
Yew air jus sum pettie newsance.
Peeples mosly sea der oan spellen airers sune aftr posten.
If yew kan unnerstan da wurd ta korrect spellen den uther peeple kan to.

BrianR
Guess I was just throwing the "Kid" a little credit.

You've got to admit the spelling and grammar IS better than Robert's - so I'm assuming he's better educated than him - you know, beyond middle school.

Don;t know if you saw it on another thread, but "Robert" won't be around for a week. Something about a little trip to the Med for some R&R with Wonder Woman.

I'm thinking it is more likely that he's due for another shock treatment and will be incapacitated for several days thereafter.

MyOp, that was priceless!
What's so absolutely on the head is that just like you wrote, I invariably find "that" spelling error just AFTER I've hit the "Post Your Comments" icon.

And that after having read it a couple of times or more before clicking it to send.

Soooooooooooo funny!

Heh heh, Primus
No, I didn't see it; I've been hanging around here today. Also, since ole Roberto's such a bubblehead, I'm not sorry I missed it.

Of course, the great thing about "Wonder Woman" is that he can let the air out and fold her into the smallest of shaving kits or AWOL bags. Totally cool!

Of course, the down side is he has to make sure he can also squeeze in that jar of Vaseline.


BrianR
And set there looking at the error while the button is white and there is NOTHING you can do about it!

Yeah, MyOp!
An exercise in total frustration!

Cincinnati Kid writes:
"You seem like a pretty reasonable person, Primus. I would enjoy discussing some of these hot-button issues with you without the personal insults and attacks. There's probably more that we agree on than disagree."

Kid, I and many many people here at Townhall are very reasonable and love to debate without rancor and personal insults (and that includes BrianR).

Ever since Townhall began a strong advertising campaign to attract new readers, these threads have been invaded by all sorts of posters - many from the extreme left whose default positions are arrogance and ad-hom. attacks.

As a result, many of us are extra sensitive to that approach and simply don't countenance that nonsense without a counter-attack.

The truth is, you do have a pretty good grasp, and it might be true that we have more in common than not, but please, if many people here are telling you the same thing, perhaps it isn't "our" perceptions that are screwed up - consider the alternative.

While you won't convince me or some others to join you in your support of McCain or the GOP as it is now functioning - you probably would find the discourse in many other areas civil and fun.

If I were you, I'd issue a post basically saying, "Hey, time out friends, can we start over?"

I think you'd be amazed at the reaction.

ModMark.... yes, exactly
Don't get me wrong; the time will come when oil-based technology will pass. Most definitely. I agree with you.

We're only in the early stages of the technological development of the next generation. Hopefully, the current state of development will be surplanted before the oil runs out, and THAT'S my point; we have enough to carry us through to the next stage without totally disrupting our current technoligocal advancements and their attendant benefits.

I'm certainly NOT advocating that we stay dependant on a non-renewable resource forever. That would be luddism of the worst order.

The day of the stream-turned paddle-wheel is over; so will go the way of oil dependancy. But probably not in our lifetimes.

BrianR
As an interested observer of your exchange between yourself and cincy, I would say you clearly won the exchange. You can always tell the difference between a conservative and a committed ideologue: The former will concede a point in the pursuit of truth; the latter always assumes the snarky and condescending attitude, truth be dammed.

Basis for evaluation: I will always award points for intellectual honesty and logic and subtract them for intractable disregard for facts and reasonable truth with 'tude.

I think your analysis of the SCOTUS as an issue was right on and seriously deflates another McLain favoring boogeyman. There is one thing I'd like to point out: it wasn't three GOP moderates that gave us Reagan - it was one total dem a-hole named Carter.

As to the Dhimmis, I say let them have their shot - in propagandizing the public school systems and agitating for open borders, this is what they set up. Then let these little mindless turrd balls try to make it out there in the workers paradise, while the 'village' assumes control of their kids - that is if their brain dead foreign policy doesn't doom us beforehand.

ModMark
YOU seem to be the one lacking in courage, the way you keep running around parroting "The sky is Falling" like chicken little.

The greatest danger is the one people do not see or understand.
Hydrogen is invisible and odorless.
Like many other people you haven't a clue of how dangerous it is, mainly because of that.

Like I said before, there will always be naive people willing to eat any verbal crap Leftist put out and run around regurgitating it!

Try to grasp the fact;
It is not about scarcity of fuels.
It is not about the "Ecology"
IT'S ABOUT SCAMMING PEOPLE OUT OF MONEY!

During WW2 when gas was RATIONED there were cars converted to operate on natural gas, butane & methane.
If alternate fuel was the REAL purpose it could be easily met because anything that will decay can be used to generate a fuel gas.

Innocently or not, you are doing your share to "Hard Sell a Hoax".

Grubby, thanks for the observation and
I absolutely concur that Carter lead directly to Reagan.

This rift between the GOPer party loyalists and true conservatives is nothing new. We've been there, done that, and got the T-Shirts.

Reagan ran for Prez before he actually won the nomination, and was castigated for being "too conservative".

This is an ooooooold war. The party loyalists -- the "country-clubbers" and "Rockefeller" Repubs -- have had their hands around the neck of this party for a long time.

It usually takes a conservative revolt, historically triggered by some pretty significant GOP blunder, to finally lead to a rediscovery by the GOP that they can't -- simply CAN NOT -- win without the support of the true conservative faction, REGARDLESS of how much they try to portry things differently.

Carter's admin was a great example. It took HIS disastrous administration to give the party hacks -- and the rest of the country -- the kick in the head they needed to realize that true conservatism is the only answer to this country's problems.

Samne with the 1994 Gingrich Revolution predicated on the Contract With America. Clinton, flush with victory, ma the classic Dem rookie error of trying to overreach. The result? He lost BOTH houses of Congress, and his sails were permanently trimmed. Being the canny politician he is, he then triangulated and invented "post-partisanhip" in response, basically acknowledging that his power as a true player was finis, and that REAL power lay with Congress.

Which is exactly where we conservatives need to focus our monetary contributions and volunteer time.

Screw McCain and the RINOs. Let's do what we do best!

MyOpine
You have a recurring tendency to yell "Leftist!" regarding policy positions (global warming, waterboarding as torture) where the left & right are fairly in sync (except for the fringe elements).

John McCain believes man-made GW is a "dire" problem (his quote). John McCain spent a good deal of time on tonight's "60 Minutes" explaining how waterboarding IS, in fact, torture, and how the United States has been torturing these past years (comparing us to WWII waterboarding atrocities).

The truth is there is more similarity between the 2 political parties than differences & Chicken Littles like you who routinely run around the threads yelling "Leftists!" are not acknowledging that the republican party (in PRACTICE as opposed to THEORY) holds many of these same policy views as democrats. Global warming, the environment, what constitutes torture, some social issues, solving immigration...there is more similarity than difference in actuality. Instead of focusing on the preceived unity (how we can take our agreements & move forward, united), defeatists like you focus on percieived differences. You don't seem to even think in terms of "solution"....just exacerbating division.

ModMark, great post
First of all, truly classic line: "I have a request for my grandkids in my will, when the last drop of ME oil arrive in the US, please raise your middle finger toward mecca for grandpa."

God! That is great!


As to digital movies, I wouldn't be as concerned about that. I really don't at all like the visuals of that, and I'm thinking specifically of the Tom Cruise flick "Collateral", filmed exclusively in digital format. It really doesn't capture the whole "cinema" experience like film does. Not even HD.

Movies are still an art form, and total "realism" isn't going to be the accepted format for a very long time. I used to be an actor, as you may or may not know. Here's my imdb link: http://imdb.com/name/nm0048293/ My minor in college was Drama.

One of the key elements in theater is the "third wall", and digital/HD eliminates that "third wall" from the viewer psychologically. That's actually not a good thing dramatically because it's too involving for the audience. That's one of the reasons why experimental theater which required audience involement/participation has never really caught on, other than as an occasional fad or