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Sunday, December 09, 2007
Austin Hill :: Townhall.com Columnist
Romney In a Mess, Not of His Making
by Austin Hill
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It finally happened. Presidential hopeful Mitt Romney delivered his “religion speech” last Thursday, and by all accounts, it was a success. Of course, the lasting results of his message remain to be seen. But it’s done. It happened. Time to move-on.

I’ve got lots more to say about the fact that Romney was compelled to deliver this speech, even against the better judgment of some of his advisors. But before I go further, let me make something very clear: I am not endorsing, nor opposing Romney’s presidential bid. I have been watching Romney fairly closely since he became governor of Massachusetts in early 2003, and I find him to be an impressive leader. But if there was a primary election in my home state of Arizona tomorrow, I honestly don’t know who I’d vote for, and I am certainly not writing today as a partisan Romney supporter.

That said, I am intrigued, and troubled, that Romney felt that he “needed” to do this.

Let’s start by considering Romney’s apparent intent with the speech. For this, it’s best to review this official statement by Romney spokesman Kevin Madden, issued just prior to Thursday: “This speech is an opportunity for Governor Romney to share his views on religious liberty, the grand tradition religious tolerance has played in the progress of our nation and how the governor’s own faith would inform his presidency if he were elected.”

Okay, fair enough. The “grand tradition” that “religious tolerance has played in the progress of our nation” is something we should all revisit from time to time. By why must Romney be the candidate that is stuck with this task?

The reason is simple: there has been a growing drumbeat over the past few months from pundits, supporters and would-be supporters, saying that Romney needed to speak publicly about his Mormon faith. Many have made the comparison between what they have believed that Romney needed to do, and what John F. Kennedy did do during his presidential campaign in 1960, when he addressed our nation about his Catholicism. In short, Romney is being singled-outl, simply because he's a Mormon, and he's making the best of it that he can.

Earlier in the campaign cycle, when questions would arise about his Mormonism, Romney seemed to make a practice of saying, essentially, “I’m not here to talk about my church or my faith, I’m here to talk about our country and about being president.” That seemed to work for a while. But eventually his polling numbers began to stall, particularly in certain sections of the southern U.S. At that point, Romney seemed to adopt an “I’m just like you” approach with religious conservative audiences, making references to himself as being “born again.” And this made matters worse, especially with conservative evangelicals.

And let’s keep in mind that, while all this has been unfolding with Romney, former Baptist minister and Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee has emerged from relative obscurity, to being tied with Romney in the all-important primary state of Iowa. Despite the fact that Romney is objectively a more well-funded and more viable candidate, and by most accounts is a more “truly conservative” Republican, the Baptist credentials seem to trump political philosophy and public policy - - especially when compared to those of a “Mormon.”

And this gets to why I find the entire scenario troubling: I simply do not believe that, in this instance, the theological views of the current crop of presidential candidates should matter in how they are viewed as a prospective president.

Don’t get me wrong: I understand very well that the theological divide between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and historic Protestant and Catholic Christianity is significant. This is one of the reasons why the Romney/Kennedy analogy makes no sense - - it’s a lot easier to connect Catholicism and, say, Evangelicalism, than it is to connect Mormonism with either of the other two.

But Romney is not campaigning to be our nation’s theologian-in-chief. And personally, I don’t look to a President or a would-be President for theological wisdom, anyway. I do, however, look for a would-be President to possess leadership capabilities, a solid grasp of the constitutional duties entailed in the presidency, and a well-defined moral compass. And Romney seems to possess all of these, in good measure.

But despite all the furor over Romney, he’s not the problem. The real problem is that far too many Americans apparently don’t grasp that “values” can transcend theological belief systems, and that some values are universal.

Thus is the case with Romney and me. I don’t embrace his theology, and I never will. But his values, so far as I can know them, seem to be consistent with mine, and I would not be uncomfortable in the least to call him President.

As our nation continues to become more culturally and religiously pluralistic, Americans will increasingly be required to think more critically, and more rationally, with respect to these kinds of “faith and values” dilemmas.

In the meantime, Governor Romney is doing the best he can in an awkward situation, a situation brought about by other people’s short-sidedness.

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About The Author
Austin Hill is a Talk Show Host At Boise, Idaho's 580 KIDO Radio, and a frequent Guest Host on the Fox Newstalk Radio Network. He is the Author of "White House Confidential: The Little Book Of Weird Presidential History," And Co-Author of the forthcoming title "The Virtues Of Capitalism: A Moral Case For Free Markets" (Northfield/Moody Press, 2010).
 
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I disagreed with giving "the speech."
But having heard it I think he did an excellent job of it.
In my opinion he hit all the right notes and made all the correct points. And as Mr. Hill, and many others have pointed out, WE'RE NOT voting for a Theologian in Chief.

Being a member of the LDS Church myself I know that the First Presidency of my church IS NOT going to try to influence any decisions a President Romney might have to make.
Neither would President Romney try to influence any decisions the First Presidency might make regarding the affairs of the LDS church.

Romney wasnt "forced" to give his speech
"Austin wrote: :I’ve got lots more to say about the fact that Romney was compelled to deliver this speech""
--------------------------------------
"Compelled"????

Austin you are pathetic. You sound like a typical left wing PC cry baby who wants to convince the nation mitt is a poor misunderstood persecuted minority/victim.

You obviously don't believe in personal responsibilty for one's actions.

Put away the kleenex,sonny: nobody "forced" mitt to do anything; including the following:

1. make his pompous and intolerably unctuous "religion in America" speech :

2. hire illegals to work the tennis courts of his sanctuary mansion, or

3. tie his dog to the cartop, or

4. ban his in laws from their own daughter's wedding

5. Appoint a liberal judge who lets criminals go. or,

6. Force the citizens of massachusetts to buy expensive health insurancee whether they want it or not, and whether they can afford it or not-so he can lie and say he "fixed" the health care problems of Massahcusetts.

7 Lie about being pro life,

8. Lie about being pro gay rights.

and so on...

No! its all somebody else's fault isnt it?

I know: maybe Rudy or Huck made him do it...or maybe it was the Angel Moroni.

Get outta here and post your lugubrious blather on the democratic underground, with all the professional victims and nose blowing net nannies.




...values can transcend
There you see Austin, previous proster just branded you as a ‘lugubrious blathering democrat’! ha ha… just like Sean and Rush used to brand any caller who disagrees with them as a democratic seminar caller!!! Because they are the sole ‘keepers’ of the conservative movement, and hence if you begin to ‘think’ anything other than their ‘so called’ value system (however rational it might me your view) it is a blasphemy and hence you ought to be a democrat, period!
Anyway, I like your final conclusion that values can transcend any belief systems (although as a Calvinist I think human values are ‘filthy rags’ just as Apostle Paul bluntly stated, nevertheless) I am amazed by your intellect to come to this conclusion which shakes the very foundations of the conservative movement, because it includes Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims and even Atheist as perfect contributors and promoters of certain values which were solely thought to be owned by us Christians, a that must be rejected Austin, at any cost in order for conservatism to survive… hence get ready for the impeachment proceedings against you from the conservative party!

In the meantime, true believes stay amazed seeing the mighty hand of our Sovereign God slowly but steadily humiliating everyone who misrepresents the sweet Gospel of His only son Jesus Christ for their politics, career, listener-rating advantage, hope they have read the following admonishment for leaders who lead the rest to sin:

Mathew 18:6 “…it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea” – Jesus Christ.

What gall, a conservative?
Whats next? Ted Kennedy included as a conservative?

http://massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/


How Gov. Mitt Romney started same-sex “marriage” in Massachusetts - despite what he says now!
Same-sex "marriage" is still NOT legal in Massachusetts, and was NOT created by the Supreme Judicial Court's Goodridge ruling.

Timeline documents Mitt Romney's role in creating same-sex "marriages."

In fact, it was Governor Mitt Romney who was ultimately responsible for same-sex "marriages" taking place. The Supreme Judicial Court only issued an opinion and advised the Legislature to act (which it never did). Even the Court acknowledged that it had no power to change the law.

Governor Romney created these "marriages" through an unconstitutional and illegal directive to his Department of Public Health (to print new "marriage" licenses), and through his legal counsel threatened to fire any Town Clerk or Justice of the Peace who failed to implement the (non-existent) "new law". He was not required by any constitutional mandate to do these things. On the contrary, his actions clearly violated his oath to uphold the laws of Massachusetts.


Here we go again
Cornpone and Tamil: Once again I have read even more bigotry. And yes it is bigotry.

Cornpone you are just as bad as the "lugubriouos blather" that you accused Austin of. Every point you made is a hlaf true or a flat out lie. For example Romney did not hire illegal aliens. He hired a company who happened to employ illegal aliens which if you live in America is pretty likely to happen unfortunately. Nor did he tie his dog to the top of a roof. It was in a dog carrier. I know the visual isn't as pretty but it is not much different than the flatbed trucks with cages on the back that animal control uses. And he never lied about being pro-life. He has been upfront about it the whole time. He has always been pro-life the only change has been on how he feels laws should govern on the issue of abortion.

Tamil you seem to know the Bible well but not well enough to to know that Mathew 18:6 was speaking about those who offend little children and not leaders who lead others to sin. That is what the first half of verse 6 says. The part that you failed to quote. And name one moral value that is different from Mormons and other Christians. Conservatism is not the same as being a Christian and visa versa. Jimmy Carter was a baptist and he was as liberal as they get. Harry Reid is a Mormon and he's a lib too. Yet the 16 LDS members of congress as a whole rank higher on most conservative studies than any other religion.

So lets all quit the bigotry and nonsense such as tying a dog to a car and start talking about more important issues.

talent scout
You are sadly misinformed, or lying, and no one believes you. Try that nonsense somewhere else.

Romney/Huck 1
I was just making a comparison in my mind as to logically why I preferred Romney over Huck. I went down the list of important issues and compared the two.

On abortion, both are acceptable to me. Romney is a recent convert but and effect spokesman and adroit leader. Retoric aside he is likely to find ways to restrict abortions. He is more likely to appoint judges who will be good on abortion as well as other issues that I care about.

On Iraq/Foreign Policy, I would give a distinct edge to Romney. I like the way he throughly studies and gathers opinions and makes decisions. He is more likely to develop a comprehensive workable plan. He will try to be fair to both sides in the Middle East. He will show no mercy or compassion to terrorists. The Drumond case and Huck's comments on Gitmo etc. give me the impression that he is soft and maybe clueless. He Governs more by emotion than comprehensive logic.

On the Economny, Romney is far superior in background and understands the global economy. He knows how to maximize benefits for Americans better than any other candidate. Huck has a Divinity degree. He would make a great Pastor in Chief. He is clues on economics and dangerous. He reminds me of Jimmie Carter.

On Taxes, I would definitely give Romney the edge. Huck has a tax happy record.

On Health care, Romney wrote the book on this issue for Republicans. Huck is a big government compassionate conservative.

@tamil selvi
Tamil Selvi wrote: "Anyway, I like your final conclusion that values can transcend any belief systems (...I am amazed by your intellect to come to this conclusion which shakes the very foundations of the conservative movement, because it includes Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims and even Atheist as perfect contributors and promoters of certain values which were solely thought to be owned by us Christians,... "
-------------------------------------------
Tamil, it does seem those who misrepresent the gospel or misprepresnt themselves as Christians are those who value good works as much as salvation by grace-

Good works however absolitely do *not" transcend the difference between Christianity and other religions. And yes they shall be humiliated-perhaps in Iowa, :)

Tamil, you know very well that Christianity is salvation by grace which leads to eternal life-in sharp contradistinction to the other "faiths" which are not actually "faiths" at all-but basically salvation by works religions. salvation by works is not *faith*-its *self* righteousness-not *His* righteousness.


But, of course if you are comfortable ignoring that, I would agree that ignoring their inability to save for the expediency of forming temporal political alliances can be useful for achieving temporal political goals.


Regrettably that seems to be the most important consideration for you.

(read epehesians 2: 8 9, and Titus 3:5,6 )








Here we go again
Your teacher is YOU jonny1921 thats why you do not see what I see, if Holy Spirit be your teacher he would have taken you a few verse above in context, where our Savior says:

[Matthew 18:3] “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.”

That’s why we are called as believers because we don’t ask for reasons, but BECOME like little children when we are born-again, hence the following verses mean all believers and people who misguide these believers (watch verse 7 in particular):

[verse] 6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!”

And further Christ reinforces how dreadful damaging a leader can be hence admonishes to run away from such leaders at any cost, as follows:

[verse] 8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.”

[end of context]

Well, I guess that should put your refute to rest… BTW, who gave you the idea that I was critical of Romney, actually I was critical of Huck in that post!!!

Romney on abortion
Johnny, 1921- ok, i agree lets forget the dog. I should have not mentioned that, as it conveniently gave you something unimportant to argue about.

a much more revealing window into mitt's character (or lack of) that you conspicuously ignored was the fact that romney wouldnt even allow his inlaws to attend their own daughters wedding to him becasue they were not mormons. Thats how I would spell *bigotry*.

re abortion:

Romney has flip flopped back and forth on abortion for years.

As a 1994 U.S. Senate candidate, he said he had believed for nearly a quarter century that abortion should be "safe and legal."

Yet by 2001, the Salt Lake City Tribune quoted him as saying, "I do not wish to be labeled pro-choice."

A year later, running for governor in Massachusetts, Romney was definitely Pro-choice and promised he would not touch any abortion law. During a candidate's debate, he was so firmly Pro-choice, he renounced an endorsement from Massachusetts' Citizens for Life.

But, last year in South Carolina, a modern day miracle occurred. Romney declared, "I am firmly Pro-life...I was always for life."

Yeah, right, if you buy that you will probably also buy his "I am a lifelong hunnter lie, and his bogus federal mandatory universal health care fraud.

BTW: it was the Clinton attack machine in Arkansas that spread the lies bout this Republican Governor of unquestioned integrity.
This negative strategy of Mitt the flip is going to backfire on him. Romney who is the last person race who needs a negative image. The dirt won't stick to Mike-instead it will stick to Mitt.



OPEN CHALLENGE
It's only natural curiosity, due to the secretive and highly organized structure of Romney's faith that people wonder about how his religious views will inform his decisons. Also, I CHALLENGE ANYONE with this QUESTION-Are there ANY ancient cities or peoples referred to in the Book of Mormon that can be archeologicaly documented, as ALL of the Bible's cities and people groups are? It's an honest question.

Between the secretive nature, and the WHOLLY unverifiable aspects, on even the BASIC claims(apart from the miraculous claims), of this religion-A person who holds Mormonism to be true will continue to be viewed as unpallatable to the majority of literate, curious people, evangelical and otherwise.
Go to YouTube.com- and see the documentary "DNA & The Book of Mormon" which interviews MORMON scientists,and the "Bible & the Book of Mormon" which looks at land claims and other archeological evidence. Whether you agree or disagree the questions raised in these documentaries do not bode well for Mormonism with the advent of easily accessable information via the internet.
You cannot fault people for having a natural curiosity on what people believe when they are seeking the highest office in the land. Article VI of the constitution protects their right to run, not their right to avoid scrutiny by the voter. The voter can take the candidates views on ANYTHING, into account when determining for whom they will vote. This is the right of the voter in a free society and perfectly legitimate. (PS I Like Romney as a person, I just do not like the secretive, and seemingly deceptive foundations of his religion- of which, maybe he is not even aware.)And if he wins I will probably, Most likely will vote for him.

You must be a Mormon
PC writes: 3:33 AM
talent scout
You are sadly misinformed, or lying, and no one believes you. Try that nonsense somewhere else.
------
My post is the facts, something Mormons just cannot handle.
So no, I am going nowhere and in fact sense you said that, I will be here like white on rice, just for you.

MORE:
How Gov. Mitt Romney started same-sex “marriage” in Massachusetts - despite what he says now.


given that the court is not changing any laws, the SJC gave the Legislature 180 days to "take such action as it may deem appropriate."

"We vacate the summary judgment for the department. We remand this case to the Superior Court for entry of judgment consistent with this opinion. Entry of judgment shall be stayed for 180 days to permit the Legislature to take such action as it may deem appropriate in light of this opinion."

What happened then?

The Legislature did nothing. It took no action. So after the 180 days Gov. Romney took action on his own!

Gov. Romney's Legal Counsel issued a directive to the Justices of the Peace that they must perform same-sex marriages when requested or "face personal liability" or be fired. (At least one Justice of the Peace, Linda Gray Kelley, was forced to resign for religious reasons.)

See Associated Press article, "Justices of the peace warned not to discriminate against same sex couples" April 25, 2004.

I HOPE all honest citizens will read this link

http://massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/

Mormons won't for sure.

Romney/Huck 2
On crime, overall Romney is pretty good on crime. Huck set records for releasing criminals. I can understand him getting sucked into the DuMond Case. It is all of his other releases that reinforces the idea that Huck is dangerous on Crime. For me this is a big issue.

On the marriage amendment, both are good but this is a signature issue for Romney. It is also the key core value of his religion.

On gay marriage, Romney stood in the for front of this battle in MA. He is respectful of gays but stellar on gay marriage. I think Huck is against gay marriage but for civil unions, but I may be wrong. The courts will eventually turn civil unions into some type of defacto marriage.

On campaign skills, both are good in different ways. Romney has better organization skills. So far in the cattle call debates I would give a slight edge to Huck. However, I have seen video of Romney in head to head debates and he is awesome in that format. It will take a machine to beat Hillary or Obama. Running a campaign in AR is different than running one in nationally.

On positioning, Romney is a businessman who is learning quickly how to be a very good politician. He was a Bishop/Stake President. In the general election I think his religion is less of an issue than in the primaries and can be dealt with. Huck is a Baptist pastor. His current positioning as "the Christian Candidate" who gets "Divine Intervention" is very problematic. Huck is wearing his religion on his sleeve or worse he is claiming it is his "identity". That is reinforced by the way he makes decisions, such as releasing prisoners, raising taxes, smoking bans, immigrations etc.


Romney/Huck 3
On immigration, our best wedge issue, I would take Romney hands down, quickly. Huck is repositioning now in Dec 2007 because he has to, like McCain. Huck is worse than Bush on immigration and this is a major issue for me. His heart is not in stopping illegal immigration, he has clearly been an open borders advocate.

On the War on Terror, Romney has the organization skills to reorganize the CIA, Homeland Security, the Military and other agencies that will keep this country and it's people secure. Huck is a Pastor in Chief who knows nothing about reorganizing the government and making it work better. This is a big issue for me.

Maybe I am approaching this to logically. But Romney is a superior candidate.

agree to disagree - no b*thole lickin
take Romney or leave him - but don't expect Mormons to bow to teh Nicene Creed and the mob which follows that incomprehensible politically inspired hogwash....

SALT LAKE CITY — When it comes to the big theological questions about God, Mormons and evangelical Christians will have to agree to disagree, a Mormon church authority said Wednesday.
"They're locked into the Nicene Creed . . . We're locked into the restoration and the experiences of Joseph Smith," said Elder M. Russell Ballard, a senior leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "And that will undoubtedly be an issue until God himself comes."

In the meantime, Mormons will keep talking about their faith, hoping to bridge the gap by sharing their beliefs, he said.

A member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Mormonism's second-highest leadership body, Ballard was responding to an Associated Press story about the theological split between Mormons and Christian conservatives that has followed church member Mitt Romney's Republican presidential campaign.

Romney was scheduled Thursday morning to talk about his faith and the role of religion in politics.

In keeping with the church's position on political neutrality, Ballard did not discuss Romney specifically or comment on his campaign.

Some evangelicals dismiss Mormonism as a cult, citing as proof the faith's beliefs about the nature of God, the Trinity and dismissing its central text, the Book of Mormon, as invalid.

@cornpone harry
I agree fully with you, that salvation is by faith and “faith alone”; good works are just manifestations of our regeneration and definitely they play NO role in our salvation. At the same time, in the voice of prophet Isaiah [64:6] “all our righteousness are like filthy rags” and this fact is reinforced several times in several contexts in the New Testament as well, hence I never take the so call human “moral” (good works) claim as anything but “filthy rags” hence why are we fighting for who has the “better filthy rags” hence vote for him! This is insane and unchristian, because the day we find someone is more righteous than the other then we loose our compass from Christ; that’s why I hate anyone claims to be Christian and yet claims to be morally superior than anyone else. Being a Christian is to believe that our righteousness is imputed by Christ because of His atonement on the cross, hence it is a great abomination to our faith to claim morality is our own creation.

Actually the part I was alluding to the fact that “Values come from all belief-systems” is a satire to discredit anyone who claims he is morally superior than the other, AND discrediting morality itself… I apologize for misleading; unfortunately it looks like my English is not that refined.

Here is the real Romney
Romney's staff held training sessions for Town Clerks, warning them to "implement" the Court decision and "uphold the law" -- although the training document admits that the marriage statutes have not been changed.


Romney directed his Department of Public Health to change the state marriage license to read "Party A" and Party "B", replacing "Husband" and "Wife". None of this was required by any law passed by the legislature or even ordered by the court.

See Romney's Massachusetts Marriage license.

Note here that Romney wasn't ordered by the court or anyone else to do anything at all. On the contrary, commentators across the country, from Professor Hadley Arkes to Pat Buchanan to the Family Research Council (and even Ron Crews of Mass. Family Institute) advised Romney to ignore the ruling. And Romney could legally ignore it because the Massachusetts Constitution expressly forbids the Judiciary making laws or ordering another branch to do something.

There is strong precedent for ignoring such a court decision

President Abraham Lincoln refused to enforce the 1857 Dred Scott decision, which had declared that a slave was the property of the master, even if they were both physically in a free state. Lincoln said in his Inaugural Address of 1861 that if he did so, the people would have ceased to be their own rulers:

"If the policy of the Government upon vital questions affecting the whole people is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court, the instant they are made...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned their Government into the hands of the eminent tribunal."

Abraham Lincoln refused to enforce the court ruling, and he is universally applauded for his refusal.

http://massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/



Open Challenge answer
Go to

FARMS - Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies

Studies on the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and ... Subscribe to The FARMS Review. Subscribe to BYU Studies. Donate to the Institute. Book of Mormon ...

http://www.farmsresearch.com/

They address in great detail the issues that you are concerned about. The site can be searched and new material is constantly added. The address many anti Mormon articles point by point.

Captain of the Titanic
i have a query:
Does it matter who gets elected head/Cpatain of the Titanic?
How much can one man do?
Even the mighty Reagan couldn't progress a conservative platform/agenda

timoteotk
DNA?,,, HMMMMM

Lets assume that some future race is trying to determine that ancient INDIANS were the real inhabitants of this LAND before the Europeons came...

What are the chances of them getting a pure INDIAN DNA in the future let alone now?

Lets assume you THINK you know who to look for in this DNA. How do YOU know that it is pure INDIAN?

It's clear that if our INDIAN history was not known by us then by doing DNA testing the INDIANS would never have existed. You could then claim (thru DNA) that the INDIANS never existed.

You could say that the white man was the first one here and because of the #'s and the DNA the INDIANS were NEVER here... (easy to claim based on our present DNA)

As to your archeological lack of evidence... You don't WHO was that built WHAT.

The more you THINK you know, it's clear the less you do. (you know the type)

As to the Mormon church being secretive and deceptive foundations. Me thinks this says a lot more about YOU and what YOU need to think of the MORMON church in order to feel SAFE, than it reflects anything upon the mormons theology.

Please look at some other fellow citizens who are secure enough with themselves that they don't FEEL the INSPIRITION to try and tear down another to bolster themselves. Whoever and whatever YOU ARE, this reflects poorly upon YOU.

Of course you (just like MITT) may not even be AWARE of what you don't know.
Rather ironic ehhhh what a hoot

talent scout is misinformed
I've post this before because of talent scout's drive-by's, but might as well keep doing it for the new readers. See:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/front_page/efm_releases_ two_important_doc.php

if you want what really happened with gay marriage in Mass. during Romney's term as governor.

Bottom line: Romney did everything he could within the law to defeat gay marriage right up to his last day in office.

DNA
There are several good articles on the DNA issues at

http://www.farmsresearch.com/

That addresses most of the better anti Mormon attacks using DNA and arch evidence.

It also is a very interesting site.

Pastor in Chief
Huckabee has declared that he is the "Christian Candidate", that his religion is his "identity" and that his campaign is getting "Divine Intervention".

Huck is running as Pastor in Chief.

If you examine his record in AR you find that he was soft on crime, pro illegal immigration, tax happy, tried to legislate his religion, had ethics violations, and basically governed as a pastor.

Further, he is ill equipped to deal with terrorism, foreign policy, government reform and has no economic training. He has a divinity degree.

He appears to be a decent pastor. He was a lousy governor. He would make a great Pastor in Chief. He is less prepared to be President than Jimmie Carter.

Huh.
If one reads the biographies of all the former Presidents of the US, none of them come off as being particularly religious. Most were of the Protestant faith and seemed to give lip-service to the idea, and appear at a church once in a while.

Even those I could personally observe during my lifetime, none seemed particularly religious -- not even Carter.

Well, yes, they allowed themselves to be obsevered praying, when they wanted something -- like most of us do. And many of them ended their speeches with "God bless America." That's about it, so I don't get what everybody is upset about.

Tamil Selvi
I do not listen to Hannity but do listen to Rush when I can. Your comment concerning seminar callers is akin to the claim that Rush considers anyone in the military that disagrees with him on the war to be a 'phony soldier'. Both statements are not grounded in fact. In addition you characterize conservatives as somehow being at odds with the worlds major religions. This is at odds with reality and possibly a result of your own views being twisted by certain religious beliefs. I am sure there is a passage in the Bible that covers this but I think the best statement is to say 'people who live in glass houses....

Romney & “Jihad”
WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/jihad




talent scout
"Whats next? Ted Kennedy included as a conservative?"

Those of us who were born to WWII vets, will always remeber the fact that during WWII, Joe Kennedy was a pro-Nazi/Hitler (as was his family). Ted will always be a dedicated Nazi.

So Value and Beliefs
are not connected. I never knew that.

But Why Not ?
If Hill would substitute JFK for Romney and alter some words to fit the substitution, would the result be the same -- a bad idea for Romney? The only result from making the speach is a political result. Did Romney ease the minds of some that he is not a religious radical and not upset those who already leaned in his direction? That's all that it was. As to whether Huckabee should do the same, that's up to him and whether it would make a difference. I fault GW Bush for allowing his "reborning" from creeping into his decisions, e.g., he looked into Putins eyes and then befriended him. That and other similar gestures and decisions showed me that his values were not sufficiently conservative or smart. Harriet Meirs because she is a friend and good woman. ______ fill in the blank - he is a good man. It is politics and reason and better judgment (for us) doesn't matter. Getting elected and staying elected is all that matters, isn't it?

Arkansas vs Mass
1)Fighting War on Islamic Extremists
Probable tie between between them

2) Low taxes
Gov Romney lowered taxes in a Big tax state several times. Gov Huckabee raised taxes. Edge clearly to Romney. as an aside Gov Huckabee supports the fair tax to replace income tax, but that is just one tax and not feasible in the short term. I look at his record on this one.

3)Secure Border
If I hire a painter and the painter hires an illegal helper I don't ask to see a greencard. if later find out that the helper is illegal I fire the painter. Gov Romney has a slight and very slight edge over Huckabee. Hunter or Tancredo are better on this issue but not in serious contention.

4) Small Gov
Romney gets a C- but Huckabee gets a D. Huckabee wants to ban smoking and social issues that Government has no place in. Romney C- is from his health care mostly but it was in a very liberal state. The only better candidate on this issue is Rep Paul but he wants to cut way to far back and he is s wrong on almost all other issues.

5) Sound economic policy. Gov Romney clearly beats Gov Hucakbee here. Business expreience and success outside governement count.

Those would be my top 5 choices. Both are moral men. Gov Romney has excellent marriage record (his not the gay marriage thing). I pick those top 5 issues because they effect me and the country.
Gay marriage ? who cares i am not gay let them do what they want. Nutty religion? Who cares I am not joining either of their churches they both have parts I think are nutty.

Talent Scout gets it HALF right
talent scout writes: Sunday, December, 09, 2007 2:44 AM
What gall, a conservative?
"Whats next? Ted Kennedy included as a conservative?"


In spite of Talent Scouts rant, AND despite what the lies of the link he provided state, even though the legislature failed to enact the law ordered by the court, Governor Romney had no choice but to order the state to issue marriage licenses to gays because as the Chief Executive of the state, Governonr Romney HAD TO OBEY AN ORDER OF THE COURT, even though he disagreed with it.

Governors of states ARE NOT immune from citations of Contempt of Court. So if he had not ordered the allowance of gay marriages, Romney could have been hauled into court for failing to follow a lawful, though questionably constitutionally legal, order of a court.
There is NOTHING illegal, or unconstitutional, about what he did.

Tinsldr2: EXACTLY RIGHT ON ALL 5 POINTS!
.


Wrong again, Talent Scout
talent scout writes: Sunday, December, 09, 2007 4:25 AM
You must be a Mormon
PC writes: 3:33 AM
talent scout
You are sadly misinformed, or lying, and no one believes you. Try that nonsense somewhere else.
------
My post is the facts, something Mormons just cannot handle.
So no, I am going nowhere and in fact sense you said that, I will be here like white on rice, just for you.


I HOPE all honest citizens will read this link

http://massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/

Mormons won't for sure.
---end of TS rant---

Wrong again TS, I'm a Mormon and I read the link, and replied to your blathering based on the link, which is filled with HALF TRUTHS and outright lies if you look at the REAL facts of the case.

And for future reference, since you're obviously illiterate and stated, "and in fact sense you said that," the word you wanted here is SINCE, not sense.
SENSE is something you obviously have none of, judging by your rantings.

for talent scout
talent scout writes: "In fact, it was Governor Mitt Romney who was ultimately responsible for same-sex "marriages" taking place. The Supreme Judicial Court only issued an opinion and advised the Legislature to act (which it never did). "

Do you understand the concept of judicial review??? The Massachusetts Supreme Court had ruled that it was UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to grant marriage licenses only to heterosexual couples and not to gay couples. And they told the other branches of government to start complying with their ruling within six more months. Once a Supreme Court rules that something violates the Constitution, all other elected officials have no choice but to stop doing that.

A surprising number of social conservatives have gotten it into their head that rulings by a Supreme Court (state or Federal) are just something that the other two branches of government can take or leave, implement or ignore. That's just not true. The case Marbury v. Madison, way back in 1820, established the Supreme Court as the final arbiter of what actions by the other two branches of government are constitutional and which are not.

So Ok Anne
The soldier is right again. What else is new, Sparks?

for timoteotk
timoteotk writes: "Also, I CHALLENGE ANYONE with this QUESTION-Are there ANY ancient cities or peoples referred to in the Book of Mormon that can be archeologicaly documented, as ALL of the Bible's cities and people groups are?"

Not all. Some. Not all.

No archaeologists have ever found Noah's Ark.

No archaeologists have found any historical record kept by the Egyptians of the Hebrew slaves being freed en masse by Moses or anyone else, nor any record of the killing of the first born of Egypt.

Archaeologists have never agreed on exactly the course taken by the Israelites as they supposedly wandered through the desert afterward either. Again, there are no artifacts to mark their course.


Savage99: ;-)
.

for talent scout
talent scout writes: "President Abraham Lincoln refused to enforce the 1857 Dred Scott decision, which had declared that a slave was the property of the master, even if they were both physically in a free state."

This is a half truth. The Republicans like Lincoln did NOT just ignore the Dred Scott decision on principle. They could not just say that because they found it immoral they could just ignore it; the principle of judicial review had been established 40 years earlier.

Rather, they searched around for a legalistic loophole that would allow them to ignore the ruling. They argued that the Supreme Court did not have standing to hear the case in the first place because Dred Scott was not a citizen of the state of Missouri at the time. Both the Supremes and the Democratic Party disagreed with that legalistic interpretation.

If the Supreme Court in the state where you live, or the Federal Supreme Court, ever declares one of your actions to be unconstitutional, you had better stop doing that. Otherwise you are leaving yourself open to prosecution and prison.

Johnny1921 and Tamil
Re: the verse in Matthew: you're both right. The King James Version translates the word used as "offend" and other versions translate it as "sin" or "cause to stumble."

Offend
1 Strong's Number: 4624 Greek: skandalizo
from skandalon (OFFENSE, No. 1), signifies "to put a snare or stumblingblock in the way," always metaphorically in the NT, in the same ways as the noun, which see. It is used 14 times in Matthew, 8 in Mark, twice in Luke, twice in John; elsewhere in 1Cr 8:13 (twice); 2Cr 11:29. It is absent in the most authentic mss. in Rom 14:21. The RV renders it by the verb "to stumble," or "cause to stumble," in every place save the following, where it uses the verb "to offend," Mat 13:57; 15:12, 26:31,33; Mar 6:3; 14:27,29. Notes: (1) In Jam 2:10; 3:2 (twice), AV, ptaio, "to stumble," is translated "offend;" see FALL, STUMBLE. (2) In Act 25:8, AV, hamartano, "to sin," is translated "have I offended;" see SIN.

BG
Re "Huck has a divinity degree": Actually, he didn't even get a degree---he dropped out of divinity school to take a job as assistant to a televangelist then went on to become a televangelist himself. Check his online bios for details.

Baptists are dangerous
Can anyone tell me the last time a group of Mormons showed up at a convention of Baptists with the sole purpose of insulting Baptist beliefs and attempting to physically engage Baptists in order to have them arrested for assault?

Yet, twice a year during LDS general conference, Baptists and other evangelical clowns descend on Salt Lake City with the sole purpose of insulting LDS beliefs, and their methods include attempts to physically confront conference attendees in hopes of creating altercations that will the media will headline as Mormons kicking the crap out of defenseless and outnumbered evangelicals.

Here's better idea for cowardly Baptists that want a physical confrontation with Mormons. Have Liberty University or any other evangelical university schedule BYU for a football game.

Of course, since football is America's game and Baptists and evangelicals hate America, that likely will never happen.

Evangelicals and Romney
Evangelicals as a whole will only vote for their kind. They won't vote for a Catholic even if that Catholic is devout and they won't vote for Romney regardless of his pro-life politicians. As a voting block, evangelicals are what they are in their faith - exclusive. This is not Christian and not biblical.
Evangelicals won't admit their Catholic bias or their bias against those of other faiths even when other people of faith agree with evangelicals on the social issues. They'll find some reason to be against them or ignore them. And BTW, my Christian brothers and sisters...can you try and get it right on contraception. You are not pro-life if you agree that contraception is ok!

To anti-socialist
Half-truth is a form of lie. You mention what Democrats did to help the Nazis, but you omit that George W Bush's grandfather and great-grandfather both had dealings that involved financial support and arms provision to Nazi Germany. All of this has been widely explained both online and in published hard-copy materials. Did you actually not know, or just choose to remain silent on the subject?

Those interested may wish to google "George Prescott Bush". Google "Samuel Bush". Google "Bush nazi arms".

FAMILY VALUES

.....I would like to see the results of an independent study that would compare Mormons against Baptists as to which group had the most divorces, abortions, unwed mothers and committed the most crimes ...

.....I think the results of such a study would reveal which of the two religions deserves to be called the Faith of Family Values ...

.....Lilly ...One of my Italian ancestors was involved in the plot to asassinate Julius Caesar ...is my family tree diseased? .....COLOSSUS

His religion aside
all I know when I review his record is a good man who has lived a good and successful life. His record clearly demonstrates his value of family. His record clearly shows a man who has lived a life free of scandal. His record shows he is a clear fact gathering thinker. His record shows in monetary terms he has been very very sucessful. His record shows a life of values. What more does anyone want?

TRIVIA
Remember when President LBJ was criticized for the time he picked up one of the beagles by their ears?

There is little comparison between JFK and Mitt Romney on their religions. Kennedy was not particularly religious and invoked "separation of church and state". Mitt Romney is a practicing member of the LDS church.

Before Mitt and Ann were married, Ann knew what she was getting into. She accepted marriage to Mitt Romney when she could have just said no and moved on with her life. It has been a longstanding rule that only LDS Church members in good standing are allowed into temples, even for a daughter's wedding.

I think a part of the reason that Mormons are resented is that they, as a group, are highly talented and have at least some college education and are predominantly middle class. By contrast, many Evangelicals are literate but not middle class, with a certain percentage not aspiring to be, with too many believing that "money is the root of all evil".

The Osmond clan has no Southern Evangelical counterpart.




Romney's religion...
is not a factor for me as I am not looking for Preacher OTUSA. He will no more push Mormonism on America than JFK pushed Catholicism on us. It is just an excuse to be against him, especially by the so-called Evangelicals.

He has said that he will represent all Americans giving favor to no one group, religion, or special interest. JFK did the same thing.

I am much more skeptical of Huckabee and do not think his record as Governor of Ark. or his Preacher status qualifies him for the Presidency. I think some people just have Preacheritis.

I am a Christian and do not plan to vote for him in the primaries. I will go Hunter/Tancredo there and hope for the best. Huckabee can't beat the Dems because his record on illegals and taxes will keep true Conservatives from supporting him.

Romney Pro-Gay and Pro-Abortion
Austin, Romney is not conservative and people are gradually learning the truth about his record that you conveniently don't mention in your article.

Romney illlegally imposed "gay marriage" in Massachusetts to fulfill a campaign promise to the homosexual Log Cabin Republicans as recetnly reported in the NY Times not to oppose gay marriage. Romney illegally ordered Justices of the Peace to perform same sex cermonies without any accompanying legislation. Romney violated the oldest functioning constitution in teh World that John Adams wrote. This alone disqualifies him from the presidency or any other public office.

Secondly, his claim that he is "pro-life" is bogus. On his way out the door as governor, he signed a Healthcare bill that includes abotion on demand with a $50 copay that will increase the number of dead babies in the Cradle of Liberty.

The placebo "conservatives" who are shilling for Romney like Hewitt, Bennett, Hannity, Seculow, know this but are intentionally ignoring it. This is malpractice and all will be exposed for the massive fraud they conspired on in due time. When Romney goes down, they will to.

The "religion" speech is a smokescreen used to divert attention away from the fact that Mitt is really Hillary in a Reagan constume. Mitt did what Hillary has been unable to do- establish a govt run healthcare plan that includes abortion on demand and gay marriage. His 15 minutes are almost up. Thankfully.

Nonsense in Romney's speech
Mr. Hill claims that “by all accounts,” Romney’s speech “...was a success.” All I can say is that he must live in a narrow information universe. For example, I’ve heard some interesting commentary about Romney’s assertion that “Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom.” It certainly does call to mind those very religious—but unfree—societies in the Middle East and those free—but not particularly religious—societies in western Europe.

Romney Pro-Gay and Pro-Abortion
Austin, Romney is not conservative and people are gradually learning the truth about his record that you conveniently don't mention in your article.

Romney illlegally imposed "gay marriage" in Massachusetts to fulfill a campaign promise to the homosexual Log Cabin Republicans as recetnly reported in the NY Times not to oppose gay marriage. Romney illegally ordered Justices of the Peace to perform same sex cermonies without any accompanying legislation. Romney violated the oldest functioning constitution in teh World that John Adams wrote. This alone disqualifies him from the presidency or any other public office.

Secondly, his claim that he is "pro-life" is bogus. On his way out the door as governor, he signed a Healthcare bill that includes abotion on demand with a $50 copay that will increase the number of dead babies in the Cradle of Liberty.

The placebo "conservatives" who are shilling for Romney like Hewitt, Bennett, Hannity, Seculow, know this but are intentionally ignoring it. This is malpractice and all will be exposed for the massive fraud they conspired on in due time. When Romney goes down, they will to.

The "religion" speech is a smokescreen used to divert attention away from the fact that Mitt is really Hillary in a Reagan constume. Mitt did what Hillary has been unable to do- establish a govt run healthcare plan that includes abortion on demand and gay marriage. His 15 minutes are almost up. Thankfully.

Conservatives' worst nightmare?
"Mitt did what Hillary has been unable to do- establish a govt run healthcare plan that includes abortion on demand and gay marriage."

So how does that work---you go in for one of those socialized checkups and the doctor forces you to marry someone of your own gender?

Sorry for the confusion
No it means Romney established a govt run HC plan that included abortion as a "healthcare benefit" http://www.mass.gov/Qhic/docs/cc_benefits1220_pt234.pdf

and separately did what Hillary and the Dems have not been able to do in establishing "gay marriage."

Knock Knock
Knock Knock. Hi my name is Joe Smith and I' like to tell you about the religion I am starting

I will be changing over 1400 verses,and adding around 30 New Verses in your Christian and neighbor's Jewish Bible's.

I have 60 wives and you can too.

Now I can change this at anytime i.e. a little more or a little less.

You too can become a god just like me. Even everyone in your family.

Well Mr. Smith , I think it best if you would leave now.

cults
Aren't most religions cults?

Flip Flop Flap
A "flip-flop" requires moving from postion A to position B (the flip) and then returning to position A (the flop).

If Romney was "always pro-choice" and then changed to "pro-life" then he has flipped. Another word for this is "convert." And converts often make the best missionaries. Thus, we should all be cheering for Romney's conversion to the pro-life side and noting his actions since that conversion. As he says, he has consistently acted on the side of life since his conversion.

HERE WE GO AGAIN....REAGAN
DO ALL YOU SO CALLED CONSERVATIVES REMEMBER THAT GUY CALLED R. REAGAN..GOV.(PRO ABORTION) AND LATER PRES. OF THE U.S.!?!? well he was pro abortion and made it possible for many abortions in calif. to occur! in fact as gov. he opened the flood gates! but he changed his mind! but today most GOP'ers practically worship him!i lived in calif. when reagan was gov. so iam not talking rumor! yet today ..all this talk about romney changing his mind....he's so bad! well those so called conservatives who cant get off that spin are very double standard "folks"!gay marriage: really do your homework...completely
you can quote names and sound so informed..but you are carriers of 1/2 trues..to say mitt caused gay marrige he fought it ..even went to washington d.c.and gave a very forceful speech against gay marriage! this was witnessed by many ! now paul earlier said on this website..congress is where it is going to be !!!headed towards democrat complete rule ..as much as i dont like huckster..iam more concerned about
the scary trend we are starting to see..congress can over rule a pres.i dont care who the pres. is! why cant some writer write about this..and lets get some input on this even more important subject? side note: i heard obama speak yesterday
we may not be facing hillarywitch!and you know how people can get carried away with"CHANGE"!
HE'S SHALLOW.BUT VERY AFFECTIVE SPEAKER...SCARY SORTA! elvis!

Romney made his bed
he made a chose to to give a speech declairing his right to be a mormon canidate.
He could have chose to adress america's right to be free from foriegn energy, foreign envasion over spending and over taxation.
Mit Romeny believes his mormonism is more important than all those issues. That is his rite but it is mine to with hold my vote

oops chose means choice
just woke up.
TH author is trying to play a smypathy card for Mitt.
Mitt is a big boy and thought long an hard about running.
I wonder if he will give the same speech before the UN if people inother countries dislike his Mormonism.

Problem for Mitt is,
if nominated, the MSM will go nuts on religion and the Reps., who are in the minority in national reg. to begin with, will be on the defensive the entire election.

In 1996, the MSM did nothing but play on Dole's age and how "mean" he was. He was one of the funniest men who ever served in office, was a bonafide war hero, and a successful disabled person, but all the MSM wanted was re-electing Clinton.

If Mitt gets to run for pres., he'll need to give the religion speech almost daily and the Dems. will bomb around with their elite noses in the air exuding palpable "tolerance" all the while jabbering about how the LDS are slightly off MS religion, which Dem.'s today practically know nothing about one way or the other.

Romney's confession
How can the Mormon's deny the Trinity considering the following statement in their own Book of Mormon authored by Joseph Smith?

Mormon 7:7 in the Book of Mormon:

"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choir above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end."

Otis Page Arroyo Grande, CA 93420

Evangelicals' power games
I wonder how much of the evangelicals' bigotry regarding Mitt Romney is in actual fact an ugly manipulation of power. For the last decade or so few in the American conservative camp have dared to stand up to the evangelical camp, and the evangelicals have become flush with the use and abuse of that power. And I've never heard an evangelical complain about Harry Reid's liberalism stemming from his "non-Christian" Mormon roots, nor have I heard public regret that Orrin Hatch -- a staunch defender of conservatism -- wasn't good enough for the powerful Senate Judiciary Committe because of his membership in a "cult." But this election season, for the first time in many years, the evangelical camp followers are not falling on their knees before their Bible-thumping betters: Until the Huckster's recent rise none of the Republican front runners were the evangelical's pick and choice. And of course, if someone's only offering you half a loaf (and not offering to hand feed it to you in bite-sized pieces) then you's better make threats about boycotting this election, giving Hillary the presidency -- that'll teach the camp followers not to spurn our affections! This isn't about evangelicals maintaining the purity of their own religious isolation (who in their right minds thinks President Mitt Romney is going to distribute Books of Mormon through the FBI, CIA, or IRS), it's about evangelicals maintaining their stranglehold on the Republican party.

Otis - it is easy
There are a number of scriptures that refer to God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost as one. There are a number of other scriptures that show God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost as separate beings. Note his baptism where the voice of God was heard and the Holy Ghost was manifested in the sign of a dove. (Was Christ practicing ventriloquism and realeasing doves like a magician?). Note his resurrection where he told Mary not to touch him because he had to first go to his Father. (Did Christ mean that he had to go to himself?) Note the MANY scriptures where Christ prayed to the Father. (Was he praying to himself?) How about when he asked his Father to forgive those who nailed him to a cross. (Was he just talking to himself?)

God, his SON Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one metaphorically. They are one in mission and purpose. They work as a unified team. They are one in their love for mankind. But they have separate bodies.

This is not a difficult concept.

Mitt's problem is not the Trinity
Mitt's problem is running for national office as a Rep. while a practicing LDS.

If there is confusion, decension, and bile on TH, what will the Daily Krap and moviealong.littledoggies look like if Mitt is nominated?

The Reps. need to be united, not aruing theology.

@Kodiak
I remember in one of the Values Conference not too long ago, where a bunch of its participants were gloating on seeing the large number turnout; with glee one woman even screaming: “we can choose whoever we want to whatever power we want… we have the power and we are the majority”! Rove must be scratching his head as how to put this sleeping-giant to sleep again which he woke-up earlier! ha ha… The Scripture percept ‘you will reap what you sow’ is in full display here; Rove thought that he can coax a major chunk of a pretty much otherwise dormant population into a ‘goat-like’ on-demand (ditto-head) voting block, without realizing that he is being used by his Master (the one with horns and a tail! lol) whose prime goal is not to help his slave Rove’s dream come true but to bring his ‘own’ dream come true! i.e, distract the believers from the Gospel of his adversary, the Christ! Hilarious.

Now that the majority (as that woman claimed) is awake and executing in full force the desires of their one-tailed Master, who can stop them from greed, gluttony and power; these goats are not preaching the Gospel as Christ commanded but are spending all their energy to convert the entire population into a “Moral Majority”! Probably they think they don’t need Christ anymore to save the fallen, well, their morality will open the pearly-gates automatically, you know!

So learn to live with this fact, …and I think you should join them instead with gratitude! lol

@Jodi
I thought the difference was that Johnny1921 thought that Matthew passage was confined just to children… he is not disputing that it is a ‘sin’ or ‘offence’ to mislead, rather he kinda alludes that I am deliberately misquoting that passage to substantiate a ‘misleading-leader’, I think!

Anyway, thanks for that Strong’s Concordance analysis.

Tamil Selvi writes: Sunday, 2:18am
""...values can transcend
There you see Austin, previous proster just branded you as a ‘lugubrious blathering democrat’! ha ha… just like Sean and Rush used to brand any caller who disagrees with them as a democratic seminar caller!!! Because they are the sole ‘keepers’ of the conservative movement, and hence if you begin to ‘think’ anything other than their ‘so called’ value system (however rational it might me your view) it is a blasphemy and hence you ought to be a democrat, period!
==--==--==--==--==--== partial only ==--==--==--
Mathew 18:6 “…it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea” – Jesus Christ.
=================================================

Yes, she's talking about you corn pone harry.

What really caught my eye was the last part.

Jesus according to Mathew was a definite believer in capital punishment. Well there are many in the capitol(sic) who should be punished. A mill stone around the neck and in the water sounds good to me.


A Spicy but Sage Observation
John Konop writes: Sunday, December, 09, 2007 7:37 AM
Romney & “Jihad”
WATCH VIDEO
---
A Spicy but Sage Observation:
A good or great leader first of all is principled. Has developed and lives by moral, ethical, social, a sound philosophy; scientific knowledgeable process and procedures, from logical guidelines, in proven and acceptable timely actions.

Leaders adapt with changing conditions according to principled. ethical social and moral standards according to dominant values of merit.

JIHAD EXTREMISTS OR INSANE FANATICS HAVE DEMONSTRATED THE RESULT OF THEIR CRAFT AND METHODS, AS HAVE WE. WE NEED A LEADER WHO WILL ACT IN WISDOM IN A TIMELY FLEXIBLE MANNER WHILE EXERCISING RESTRAINT AND SELF CONTROL.

The MSM brand everyone who makes a revision of their view, after learning that there is a better way, but they are not put in the same straitjacket are they? How quaint!

True leaders are principled learners, and have the vision to see the connections between cause and effect, the needs, talents, capability and character of people, which necessitates learning, adapting and change of perspective form moment to moment and day to day. Some things remain stable and unchanging. These are the universal self-evident truths, standards, laws and values of eternal infinite merit, the unchanging laws which determine our very existence.

Leaders must be masters of themselves, ethical, moral, and seasoned by experience, knowledge, wisdom and understanding, yet they need to have compassion and enduring love for those for whom they administer, as they serve the needs of all who fall under their care. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Mitt Romney is the man who has demonstrated flexibility acumen and ability to work with his team to make it happen. His money has not made the difference, he character and leadership have.

See how the Mormons are?
They operate EXACTLY like the Liberals.
Come to attack the person instead of the issues.
Mormon Dad is typical of this.
------

Marines' Dad writes: 8:27 AM
Talent Scout gets it HALF right

------
talent scout writes: 2:44 AM
What gall, a conservative?
"Whats next? Ted Kennedy included as a conservative?"
-------

Marines' Dad writes:
In spite of Talent Scouts rant, AND despite what the lies of the link he provided state, even though the legislature failed to enact the law ordered by the court, Governor Romney had no choice but to order the state to issue marriage licenses to gays because as the Chief Executive of the state, Governonr Romney HAD TO OBEY AN ORDER OF THE COURT, even though he disagreed with it.
------
ts:
I dispassionately put up the facts that the Conservatives who live in Massachusetts say.
You are so very wrong, the facts are Romney went for the gold star in above and beyond thje call of duty to insure the sodomites were helped.
This is basic stuff here.
As is your standard whine and accusations.

-----------




Marines' Dad writes:
Governors of states ARE NOT immune from citations of Contempt of Court. So if he had not ordered the allowance of gay marriages, Romney could have been hauled into court for failing to follow a lawful, though questionably constitutionally legal, order of a court.
There is NOTHING illegal, or unconstitutional, about what he did.
------
ts:
Showing us all not only what a wimp he is, but no leader who will stand his ground against the illegal operations of a court.
Definitely is NOT a Conservative, but a liberal running as one.



Like Lincoln did and showed himself a leader.
He was NOT obligated to support a thing without a law made.
NO LAW had been passed from the MASS. Legislators.

Romney Takes the High Road
It is somewhat puzzling that there are those in the Republican party that feel Huckabee is running the more "positive" campaign. He is definitely not. His lack of criticism on the "religious" questions about Mitt's religion are the evidence.

One of the basic traits that has made me as strong a supporter of Mitt is his focus on the issues and the positive side of his campaign. His speech on Faith is further proof that he is the right person for the job of President.

Has Huckabee, McCain, Thompson, Giuliani, Hunter or any other Republican candidate (or Democratic candidate for that matter) talked about the things that make us great and their views of those ideals? Why did it have to the the LDS candidate that "grounded" everyone in the values? As I have heard, Mitt wanted to make this speech but was advised against it. Who else is really showing the "political courage" needed to lead this country.

Romneys Religious Speech.
It appears that folks are trying to use religion to destroy a Presidental candadate. So let's be fair now and insist that ALL presidental candidates explain their religious beliefs or lack of any belief. Other then the god of power they seek or the god of gold to line their pockets most current candidates are fakes at publically expressing some belief..Lets put all of them in the spot light. Or maybe I will suggest Roy Beck to chart them. Oh, I do not support Mr. Romney. But fair is fair..
Patriot

@TruLib
Conservatives and Christian-believers are not synonymous, in fact there is no statistical-correlation between the two. After Huck’s surge, many conservative hosts are shattered by this rude awakening and are slowly showing their true color; like on Friday Laura Ingraham candidly said that Romney’s talk will not afftect the evangicals but might lure some McCain and other competitor’s camp to switch to Romney! And went on to say that her conservative views too are more on values, lower taxes, security and so on, rather than the core Christian fundamentals! Dennis resonated the same! Compare these hosts’ non-stop using of this phrase Judaeo-Christian values, until Huck’s surge… now these evenagicals have somehow become none other than bigots for rejecting Romeny!

There is no such a thing called Judaeo-Christian values, there is Judaeo-value may be, and there are Christian values; for example, “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is judaeo value. On the other hand, “father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing” is a Christian value. Hence I see no mathamatics that can conjoin these two diverging lines, except the conjobs of the con-hosts!

I would not what you walking my dog.
talent scout writes:
Sunday, December, 09, 2007 2:26 PM
See how the Mormons are?
---

A spicy Recommendation:
talen scout,
Mitt Romney did not kept the law he would be in contempt of the court. It you do not understand that then I would not what you walking my dog.

Unfortunately laws are not always crafted by moral, ethical individuals. And we lose ground and the power to change the law because we lose the opportunity to persuade. You just happen to be blind to this be cause of your prejudice against Mormons. That I cannot accept. This is all about Mormonism, and not about mitt, and I suggest and recommend that you learn the facts, rather then running of your liberal opinion with figments, which are all false.

They say, “It takes a thief to catch a thief.” Do you know why? Because a thief believes that everyone is a thief, just like them.

Lay off the cr@p or you take the rap. God will repay. Some people can learn no other way. Do not say I did not warn you. Take care. I pray that you will always be under God’s loving care.

lilly
"Half-truth is a form of lie."

Obviously then, all your postings are nothing but lies.

& you are not even half true

talent scout writes: "President Abraham Lincoln refused to enforce the 1857 Dred Scott decision, which had declared that a slave was the property of the master, even if they were both physically in a free state."
-----


SteveL writes: 9:07 AM
for talent scout
This is a half truth. The Republicans like Lincoln did NOT just ignore the Dred Scott decision on principle. They could not just say that because they found it immoral they could just ignore it; the principle of judicial review had been established 40 years earlier.
-------

ts:
Every case that goes to court is reviewed.
No court can make law, not legally.
Nor can they legally tell the Legiislators they have to pass a law they like.

Not even the Supreme Court.
That is the job of Congress alone.
Check it out, its in the Constitution in clear language.
-------------

SteveL writes:
Rather, they searched around for a legalistic loophole that would allow them to ignore the ruling. They argued that the Supreme Court did not have standing to hear the case in the first place because Dred Scott was not a citizen of the state of Missouri at the time. Both the Supremes and the Democratic Party disagreed with that legalistic interpretation.
--------
ts:
The issue is law, not democrat or republican.
Judge Tanney dreamed one up and the people decided that issue, although it took a war.
Same thing happens when tyrants try and rule from the bench.
-------
SteveL writes:
If the Supreme Court in the state where you live, or the Federal Supreme Court, ever declares one of your actions to be unconstitutional, you had better stop doing that. Otherwise you are leaving yourself open to prosecution and prison.
-------
ts;
Typical Marxist
My Rights do not come from the Court house.
They are God given, just like breathing air is.
When the court oversteps its lawful duties then they become tyrants.
Not Judges.

Spiceman writes:
I would not what you walking my dog.
-------------------


talent scout writes:
Sunday, December, 09, 2007 2:26 PM
See how the Mormons are?
---

A spicy Recommendation:
------
ts:
Lacking spice he comments to defend Mormon accusations
--------
Spiceman writes:
talent scout,
Mitt Romney did not kept the law he would be in contempt of the court. It you do not understand that then I would not what you walking my dog.
---------
ts:
THERE WAS NO LAW!
--------
Spiceman writes:
Unfortunately laws are not always crafted by moral, ethical individuals. And we lose ground and the power to change the law because we lose the opportunity to persuade. You just happen to be blind to this be cause of your prejudice against Mormons. That I cannot accept. This is all about Mormonism, and not about mitt, and I suggest and recommend that you learn the facts, rather then running of your liberal opinion with figments, which are all false.
--------
ts:
THERE WAS NO LAW
----------
Spiceman writes:
They say, “It takes a thief to catch a thief.” Do you know why? Because a thief believes that everyone is a thief, just like them.
------
ts:
So everyone who catches thieves are thieves?
Nah.
-----------
Spiceman writes:
Lay off the cr@p or you take the rap.

------
ts:
Same to ya.
I take no orders from you.
Go play with your dog, you are useless here
----

Spiceman writes:

God will repay. Some people can learn no other way. Do not say I did not warn you. Take care. I pray that you will always be under God’s loving care.
------
ts:
I love the Judgment of God
His ROD and HIS Staff, they comfort me.
God is on the side of the righteous, not the criminals or liars.
Ps 23:4 -
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Romney, and Mormon's
I will freely admit I know almost nothing about the Mormon Religion. I do know that one time when I was visiting Salt Lake City, I went inside a beautiful building to look around, and I was roughly ushered out of the place. It was a Temple of some kind. At the Tabernacle, I have heard organ and choir concerts.

And I have heard than many people do not like Mormons, and I would be happy if none of them ever again knocked on my door, or stopped me on the street.

I have known many Mormons as neighbors, fellow employees and even customers, and I must admit I have no complaints. As a matter of fact, not one of them, neighbor, employee or whoever, who I knew was a Mormon would I consider anything but a great person, a great citizen and a wonderful person.

Oh my, does that look like I am going to vote for him? I haven’t the slightest idea, may favorite is Newt, without a doubt.

Poor Romney, he justs want to be
PRESIDENT
And all the "nasty people" are being mean to him in wanting to know who he is and what he really stands for.
-------

patriot 100 writes: Sunday, December, 09, 2007 2:33 PM
Romneys Religious Speech.
It appears that folks are trying to use religion to destroy a Presidental candadate.
-------
ts:
There is no unfair questions, period.
What concerns one may not concern another, so what.
Just the way it is.
And Romney has placed himself into the public arena seeking the highest office of the land,
And I want to know who he is.
Poor baby is being looked at by mean people is not going to convince anyone he is above being examined.
In everything about the man.
Many of us are sick of liberals running as republicans.


talent scout
You want to dig into Mitt's ideology? Fine. That is a good thing to do when someone is running for president. What is meaningless to me is Mitt's opinion on where the Angel Maroni gave Joseph Smith the golden plates. No, I am not a Morman, nor do I believe their doctrines. But unless I have a legitimate fear that those doctrines will become government policy, his opinions in that regard are meaningless.

In truth, most of congress is NON morman. As such there are more than enough checks and balances on that score.

As for me, if my choice is between Mitt and whatever democrat wins the nomination in 08...it is a no-brainer. I choose Mitt. The alternative it to vote for another "Buchanan" type who is destined to get soundly thumped.

For Those Who Do Not Respect Law
Romney asks state high court to force vote on gay marriage

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/200 6/11/24/romney_asks_court_to_force_gay_marriage_question_on to_2008_ballot/

talent scout, you may not have known, but this is how it is reported. Tolerance for the gay lifestyle is not the issue, but the traditionalize gay marriage is off limits.

The Boston.com Local News writes:
'The governor, a vocal opponent of gay marriage and a possible presidential candidate in 2008, was incensed after the Legislature recessed a constitutional convention on Nov. 9 without taking a vote on the amendment. The move was widely seen as a way to kill the measure.'

'About 170,000 people signed a petition to have the amendment placed on the ballot. Romney accused lawmakers of shirking their constitutional duty and claimed the constitution does not give them the option of avoiding a vote on a qualified initiative petition.'

'"The Legislature took an oath to uphold the constitution," said Eric Fehrnstrom, a spokesman for Romney, who was visiting two of his sons in southern California on Friday.

"This is no longer just about gay marriage," Fehrnstrom said. "It's about the right of the people to participate in their own government."'

NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY

==WANTED FOR LIFE MOTHERS AND FATHERS FOR CHILDREN==

Spiceman writes:
talent scout, you may not have known, but this is how it is reported. Tolerance for the gay lifestyle is not the issue, but the traditionalize gay marriage is off limits.
-------
.
He is trying to have it both ways, typical politician.
.

There was no law when the Governor went out of his way to act as if there was a law.


Then here is the proof he wants this both ways.

quote:

Governor Romney (opening statement):

We have a high degree of respect and tolerance for people whose lifestyle and choices and orientation is as they may choose.


Q: Governor, does it concern you at all the under this amendment there would still be four years' worth of gay marriages that would exist in Massachusetts? It doesn't address the ones that have already taken place. There would still be legally married gay couples.

A: You know, I think the Family Institute is wise not to try and dissolve marriages that will have occurred. And I think that would be a confusing factor that would muddy the issue even further. I think it's a wise course to have the amendment take its effect from its passage forward and not try and change things that have passed.


Q: Governor, we've had a year a gay marriage now. Do you see any evidence that this undercuts the institution of marriage and has hurt our society in any way?

A:..... Interestingly, the Supreme Judicial Court I believe signaled that pretty clearly in their original decision, giving to the legislature a period of time to enact statutes that would avoid those legal confusions. The legislature has not done so.

http://massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/press_conf_0 61605.html
---------
Without a law, he just accepts the court has already made one.
This is as anti-Constitutional as it gets in both the USC, and the Mass. Constitution

About Freedom To Participate & Vote
About Freedom To Participate & Vote

The Devil Wins by dividing, and you are helping him. United we stand on the foundation planted by Christ. That foundation is the source of all truth, and we cannot use any form of deception or intent to do so.

You know as well as I do that Mitt Romney is the most qualified and this nation could not do better. Mike Huckabee does not have enough base in the other states, and unless the MSM is going to push him for free, not a prayer will make him win, unless it is God's will. Hopefully if that is the case, I will be glad to support him. But knowing his few qualifications compared to Mitt and the corruption I am not convinced Mike Huckabee can deal with that.

That is where I stand at this moment. You do no know all the truth about Mormons and that is a shame. You are loyal and that is a godly trait.

I disagree with you, on your opinions, not on the morals, or family values. I do differ in the concept of free agency. If we are denied free choice, people to not learn to develop a conscience to discern good or evil. For that reason Adam and Eve were free to choose, and to learn from the consequences and have the opportunity to learn from their fallen state to overcome evil and choose the good.

It is important that you not take to personal the criticism of your views. We all make mistakes and we all know that. So lets be a little more humble and respectful. Is that too much to ask?

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
(New Testament | Romans 12:16 - 18)

***WE ARE NOT HERE TO WIN, WE ARE HERE TO BE FAITHFUL***

==WANTED FOR LIFE MOTHERS AND FATHERS FOR CHILDREN==

As an agnostic
I found Mitt Romney's faith speech one of the most profoundly patriotic ones in a long time. Also, his depth of knowledge on this subject was very impressive and his ability to connect history, personal beliefs and current struggles with in religion was brilliant.

But mostly in the speech, Mitt told us who he is; that he deeply loves America and that he will defend the founding beliefs that created this great country. He has my vote in CA and in the general election.

Also, Mitt's behavior thru out his campaign & his speech reminded my what I like about religion.

Mike Huckabee, of late, reminds me what I don't like about religion.

Good Points
However, none that I raised.
-------

bob writes: 4:18 PM
talent scout
You want to dig into Mitt's ideology?
----
ts:
Actually I am not one who has even talked about Romney's personal take on his religion.
What has happened is all the Mormons on board making claims and attacks at persons over their religion, I responded.
----------




bob writes:
Fine. That is a good thing to do when someone is running for president. What is meaningless to me is Mitt's opinion on where the Angel Maroni gave Joseph Smith the golden plates. No, I am not a Morman, nor do I believe their doctrines. But unless I have a legitimate fear that those doctrines will become government policy, his opinions in that regard are meaningless.
-----
ts:
I agree to a point.
If it matters to a voter, that is his right to decide if and why he himself rejects Romney.
Not up to me to tell him what he can decide is important to him.
Nor any one else's.
----------
bob writes:
In truth, most of congress is NON morman. As such there are more than enough checks and balances on that score.
------
ts:
I have lost all confidence in this Congress.
I do not see it as a body that represnts the people any longer and has been hi-jacked by special interests who have the money to lobby them.
American public is ignored in the immigration issue.
Exceptions, Hunter/Tancredo/Paul
-------
bob writes:
As for me, if my choice is between Mitt and whatever democrat wins the nomination in 08...it is a no-brainer. I choose Mitt. The alternative it to vote for another "Buchanan" type who is destined to get soundly thumped.
----
ts:
To elect another RINO will be the final straw for a Republican Government in this country, as I see it.
He will get no opposition from the "republicans" in Congress, Senate when he wants his liberal policies enacted.
Darn sure not from the democrats.
Might as well elect Hilliary

Your opinion only, I have my own
Spiceman writes:

That is where I stand at this moment. You do no know all the truth about Mormons and that is a shame. You are loyal and that is a godly trait.
-----
ts:
I am perfect in knowledge about the Mormon faith, and is why I reject it.
-----------
Spiceman writes:
I disagree with you, on your opinions, not on the morals, or family values. I do differ in the concept of free agency. If we are denied free choice, people to not learn to develop a conscience to discern good or evil. For that reason Adam and Eve were free to choose, and to learn from the consequences and have the opportunity to learn from their fallen state to overcome evil and choose the good.
-------
ts:
Geez man, get real.
This is pure nonsense
quote Spiceman:
"I do differ in the concept of free agency."

I know, you think I must accept what you say.
Not going to happen.
--------
Spiceman writes:
It is important that you not take to personal the criticism of your views. We all make mistakes and we all know that. So lets be a little more humble and respectful. Is that too much to ask?
------
ts:
Ha ha
My views do not get criticized.
I am personally attacked, not that I care, I do not.
Meaningless drivel.
-------
Spiceman writes:
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
(New Testament | Romans 12:16 - 18)
--------
ts:
So Jesus should have just agreed with the masses, the Sanhedrin, and the Romans huh.
All could have agreed that Jesus is not the Son of God.

No, TS....

You may or not be right about Romney being a little too liberal, but don't ever directly compare any of the repubs with Shrillary. It is not the same thing.

Not even Huckster, who is probably the most liberal and a Demo in repub clothing, would be as bad as Ms Shrillary. Not one of them, and believe you me there are several whom I don't like or worse yet trust.



It Is Just A Matter Of Time Now
As a Member of The Church that bears his name,

The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints,

I am grateful to have be able to share and I hope and pray that God and the Spirit of Christ his Son will radiate love, compassion, patience and understanding, during this Christmas season FOR EVERONE.

**** GOD BLESS AMERICA, GOD BLESS EVERYONE ****

==WANTED FOR LIFE MOTHERS AND FATHERS FOR CHILDREN==

**** PEACE ON EARTH GOOD WILL TO ALL MEN ****

TS, reject the faith, not...........

.......the man if you will. Romney neither is responsible nor accountable for the LDS. You will recall, I am neither LDS nor would ever be, but you make to much ado about his personal faith.

I doubt, but could be wrong, that you simply invented your faith or that your parents did not play a major role in your thoughts today.

My mama always said if you can't say something good, say nothing at all.

Well I don't always remember that part of the golden rule, but you and I should, especially since after a while it sounds like propaganda when you start repeating yourself.

Now tell us who you are for more often than you tell us who you are against, and tell us why you are for that person more often than you tell us why you are against another.

I think possibly Jesus would have seconded that.


Romney is like Hilliary
onceamarine writes: 5:21 PM
No, TS....

You may or not be right about Romney being a little too liberal, but don't ever directly compare any of the repubs with Shrillary. It is not the same thing.
------
ts:
Well we both know that is subjective don't we.
And I get to decide for myself from the information given.
I have decided.
He is a liberal dressed up as a conservative, simply over his family morals.
I want a complete conservative and neither Romney, Rudy or Huckabee fit the bill.
----------
onceamarine writes:
Not even Huckster, who is probably the most liberal and a Demo in repub clothing, would be as bad as Ms Shrillary. Not one of them, and believe you me there are several whom I don't like or worse yet trust.
------
ts:
I agree about Huckabee being a RINO too.
I think he would be MORE of a disaster than Hilliary.
At least the republicans might just fight with Hilliary, they will not the RINO's.

Romney and healthcare is like saying Hilliary and Helath care, very comparable.
Romney and Hilliary on the marriage issue, alike.

Very comparable huh
Both elected in the liberal northeast.
Very comparable huh


The beauty of it all
onceamarine writes: 5:33 PM
TS, reject the faith, not...........

.......the man if you will.
--
ts:
Actually I reject both, and do so by free will based in my own views and beliefs.
--




onceamarine :
Romney neither is responsible nor accountable for the LDS. You will recall, I am neither LDS nor would ever be, but you make to much ado about his personal faith.
--
ts:
Well do not read what I post about if it bothers you.
Ok by me.
As for Romney, he is running for President, my President and one I do not want in office.
So you go ahead and post as you like, so will I.
When you understand this, then you will not be wasting time posting such as this to me.
--
onceamarine :
I doubt, but could be wrong, that you simply invented your faith or that your parents did not play a major role in your thoughts today.
--
ts:
Its wrong
But sure is full of condescension for you to say it.
Way too arrogant to care what you think of me.
Friend

--
onceamarine :
My mama always said if you can't say something good, say nothing at all.
--
ts:
Too bad you are not listening to her now
-------

onceamarine :
Well I don't always remember that part of the golden rule, but you and I should, especially since after a while it sounds like propaganda when you start repeating yourself.
-------
ts:
Golden Rule?

Who among us thinks everyone running for President is not be examined?
If you want Romney vote for him, I will not.
I decide this for me.
And just like you have the same right to an opinion and to voice it here.
--


onceamarine :
Now tell us who you are for more often than you tell us who you are against, and tell us why you are for that person more often than you tell us why you are against another.
--
ts:
Hunter/Tancredo/or Paul
This thread is about Romney.
Not many articles here for who I will vote for, if any.

---
onceamarine :

I think possibly Jesus would have seconded that.
--
ts:
I will ask Him.

jim
Newt is my favorite too. I would have voted for him in a heartbeat.

But I don't mind Romney. If he gets the nomination, I will not have any trouble voting for him.

TS, you are turning, if not already,,,,

.....into a cranky old man, but as you say, why waste time with someone you don't respect as regards their views. I wrote you out of respect, not with any intentional condescension. Boy are you touchy.

What's with the handle. Thought you were looking for talent, not disparagement.


Anyone who thinks
there are no Judeo-Christian values must be unaware of the Old Testament's continutity into the New. Christ was a Jew in the tradition of the Old Testament. He did not found Christianity as a separate religion and did not write any of the New Testament. Christianity among gentiles came from Saul of Tarsus, or St. Paul.

There are three types of law:
Statutory-bills passed by legislative bodies and signed into law by an executive
administrative law--edict by fiat by an executive, such as declaring martial law or closing all businesses for a weather emergency
case law--decided by courts and IT IS LAW, in the US; ergo, Roe v Wade is the law regarding abortion because the Sup. Ct. declared it so

If you disobey case law, it is the same as disobeying any staturtory law.

That "rights" are God-given is a Romanctic theory, as God has never said so.


Help me out here--
I will not get into religion arguments since I believe that any American can choose his or her own religion. And if your religion serves you well, then by all means stick with it.
Since as I have stated before, My wife and I are of Viking ancestry and worship ;the gods of Valhalla. We have many Christian friends and never argue. But my main point is, and I need some help on this one: We are Hunter and Tancredo suporters. So can anyone here give us their opinions why these two men haven't gotten the excellent ratings that huckster and others have gotten. Yes were are also very right wing and can't find anyone else that that is up in the polls that is nearly a good as Hunter and Tancredo. Help us out!!!

2008: knock , knock!
listener:whos there?
visitor:"christian leader"!
listener:what do you want?
visitor: sell you something!
listener:what?
visitor:fertilizer!
listener:what kind of fertilizer?
visitor:clinton-huckabee type.
listener:what's your name?
visitor: mike huckabee.
listener: your fertilizer makes what grow?
visitor:taxes, more taxes,paroled criminals ,
including rapists,illegal immigrants!
listener:didnt i see you on tv the other day?
visitor: maybe.
listener: i know, you were debating those guys!
visitor:yep!
listener:you say you are "christian leader"!
does that mean the other guys aren't
"christian"?
visitor:"g-o-l-l-y"(gomer pyle sound)why do you
ask such tough questions?
listener:do they follow your lead since your
"christian"?
visitor:can i tell a one line funny instead of an
answer?
listener: no thanks!
visitor:g-o-l-l-y!(gomer pyle sound) er, ah,uhh
listener:if they dont sell the type of fertilizer
then i guess they are not "christian"?!
visitor:no comment!gulp!
visitor: closes the door!
elvis


not really
hey talent, you must have a lot of time on your hands? you big rascal, riling up all of these fellow saints..oops i meant mormons of mine!
you really know some things about the mormons, but when you say you have perfect knowledge.of the mormon church..PERFECT KNOWEDGE? only god has perfect knowledge of anything! sooo you come off sounding a little arrogant..equal to god! guess what, you dont know nearly as much as you
think you do! but you believe in god and study the scriptures...i appreciate that.
one more thing...from ol dream boat(i laughed at that label)you must secretly love romney..you must hire a spy to reveal what kind of tooth paste he uses, when he shaves,the last time he supressed a burp! hate to ruin your weekend: but romney is going to go all the way..will not be easy but he told me last night..i think i will just crank it up a notch..to win,just to upset ol talent scout! hope you have someone to share your holidays with..if not..just get ahold of some romney posters..and hug'em all thru the holidays! smile. elvis

Mormon beliefs
I am Mormon. I probably won't vote for Romney. I am not sure that I like his policies. I do like Huckabee a little. I don't like the other Republican candidates because non of them are really very conservative.

However, I cannot believe that there are still morons out there that think that we believe that Satan is the son of God or Jesus' brother. The only place you hear that tripe is from so called evangelical sources who have a reason to hate the Mormons. Face it, if we are right, the evangelical preachers will have to go find real work and stop preaching for filthy lucre. I'm tired of hearing that 13 million of us don't REALLY know what we TRULY believe, but that some Protestant hack has the down and dirty from some Judas. You guys are like Curly and Larry. You just follow the Moe's with no thought of your own.

And this book "Kingdom of the Cults" has been show over and over again to be a collection of fairy tales. Yet, morons still shell out hard earned money to buy it.

As for the Book of Mormon being a collection of Grimm's Fairy Tales, well, I've read both the Grimm collection and the Book of Mormon. Nowhere do I find the Brothers Grimm bearing witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, yet it's all over the Book of Mormon (more than the Bible, even). You just show that you are either willingly ill informed or you are a liar when you say such things.

Vikings and Fertilizers

..gee, now you got me laughing, both of you.

Elvis, keep it up, the good humor.

Vikings, hoist your sails and draw your swords. Let's fight and maybe live until another day.

Answer: my answer is they don't have personality in public. I have sent my largest donation ever to Hunter, but unless something changes, he'll continue in the house of representatives. Same is true of Tancredo, Paul and Thompson.

Great ideas and true American loyalty, but no moxie in the public forum, where it counts. In any case, they have drawn a lot of attention to the illegal migration problem, and that counts for something.

The Truth: we are stuck with Repubs who must be chosen among them to see who gets the indelicate chore of going after the Demos, aka, Shrillary.


svara

.....As to helping you out, I can't, but I will tell you where I am coming from at this date.

The big three are; Rudy G., Mitt R. and Mike H. I made my choice months ago. I don't like Rudy, and I don't trust Mike. I do like the cut of his jib in the case of Romney.

We could do a lot worse and very little better. I am talking about winners.

There's Klintstone, Obama bin Laden, Giuliani, Huckster and Romney. While you are deciding who you don't want, try deciding whose left that you do want, not in the primaries but in the national election.


correction

whose left should read who's left or who is left.

"Romney and the mess"
This PERSON IS A BORN LEADER.He will be able to confront other challenges with reasonable results.

This PERSON IS PRESIDENTIAL in his demeanor.He will present himself very well upon the world stage.

This PERSON IS ARTICULATE,SKILLFUL AND DEPENDABLE.He won't be fearful of any situation that comes his way.

WE HAVE OURSELVES A WINNING CANDIDATE-MITT ROMNEY

SVARA, it's the media gods.
__ The MSM will dig, and promote, speculation to increase their ratings. The religious key gives them kindling to throw on a fire, and everybody runs to the fire. Which ever republican candidate can create the hottest fire, they will be in the headlines. Whichever democrat speaks of quelling the fire, they too, will be number 1 in the billing. It is why the left, and MSM, are such a good combination. They both gain with turmoil in America. One reports, the other slides by as the calming voice. It's a joke to watch, has the left has never calmed American turmoil, but they both profit greatly from it. The American people are the ones who have always faced, and conquered the turmoil.

You are turning into a mother hen
onceamarine writes: 6:25 PM
TS, you are turning, if not already,,,,
------
ts:
I like people who can really say whats on their mind and not be a coward about it.
-------
onceamarine writes:
.....into a cranky old man, but as you say, why waste time with someone you don't respect as regards their views.
-----
ts:
Exactly
I don't
Just responding to your questions directed to me.
You are a petty sort aren't ya.
-------



onceamarine writes:

I wrote you out of respect, not with any intentional condescension. Boy are you touchy.
-------
ts:
I responded in respect
And with my honest opinion.
If you cannot deal with my honesty, do not ask me anything.
-------
onceamarine writes:
What's with the handle. Thought you were looking for talent, not disparagement.
------
ts:
And yet I am supposed to believe you post with respect right?
You do not like my honest opinion about Romney and now take offense at me, be my guest.

May as well get off your high horse with me, anyway.
You hold nothing and no position that matters to me, just one more opinion.
I will continue fighting to keep Romney out of office anyway.

Romney

I would be worried about Romney if nutcases like Crackpot Harry decided to support him, but I'm glad to see the resident goofball is still bashing him.




FUNNY VIDEO FROM TOM TANCREDO
Check out this youtube video Tom Tancredo posted today. It's hilarious making fun of the Univision Republican Debate tonight. He's urging people to boycott the Spanish language Presidential debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5GUCQAdlxg&feature=user

Enjoy!

I guess the Founders were all Romantics
renny writes:

That "rights" are God-given is a Romanctic theory, as God has never said so.
-------

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America


WHEN in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth,

THE SEPARATE AND EQUAL STATION TO WHICH THE LAWS OF NATURE AND OF NATURES GOD ..ENTITLE ..THEM



a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,

THAT THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UNALIENABLE RIGHTS.....

Such an old fashioned idea in todays America I guess, its now called "romantic".

am I a religious bigot

Huckabee clearly believes that his devotion to God and Christ demands that he support open-borders anarchy policies and massive tax increases to fund expansion of the Welfare State.

If I do not support those things, does that make me an anti-Christian bigot?

Wow, don't be so crabby
onceamarine writes: 7:32 PM


I made my choice months ago. I don't like Rudy, and I don't trust Mike.
-----
ts
Instead of telling us who you do not like, tell us who you do and why.
My mother once said not to say anything if you cannot say something good.



-------
onceamarine writes:
There's Klintstone, Obama bin Laden, Giuliani, Huckster and Romney.
---
ts:
Thats crabby

Appreciated info---
To onceamarine and Expound Truth: I have thought for quite a while that the MSM was to blame, and I know that Tancredo and Hunter tell the truth (in my opinion) too much to satisfy the left leaning MSM. I watch Lou Dobbs often and know that he is having an impact as a potential independent. I will not vote for shillary, obi, or a huckster type. Last time in 2004 I wrote in Tom and have sent donations to him. I just wish that he and Hunter can weather the storm and just maybe one of them can be victorious. I appreciate your feedback, onceamiarine and Expound Truth.

Not the problem
onceamarine writes: 2007 7:14 PM


Answer: my answer is they don't have personality in public. I have sent my largest donation ever to Hunter, but unless something changes, he'll continue in the house of representatives. Same is true of Tancredo, Paul and Thompson

-------
ts:
The problem is the people who run the press, the media in this country keep them out.
Instead of printing any story about some of these men that is factual and not slanted, they paint them with their views.
Then to not have the money men who buy the politicians off like Romney, Rudy, these men depend on the Americans who can see through the bs.
And that seems to be the minority today

CHECK OUT YOUTUBE SPOOF OF THE DEBATE
Check out this youtube video Tom Tancredo posted today. It's hilarious making fun of the Univision Republican Debate tonight. He's urging people to boycott the Spanish language Presidential debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5GUCQAdlxg&feature=user

Enjoy!

Tancredo you tube

Very funny and well made, beyond what I would have expected.

When they have 5 million Americans in Mexico, maybe they'll do the same. Don't hold your breath, there are only about 500,000 at last count, and it would be bad politics in Mexico to even consider that.

As to whether God says in the bible that He gives us our rights, it is understood by the other things that are said. At the same time the Declaration of Independence is man made, speaks of a creator(sic), which one do you want, Valhalla, etc., and as a man made and thought document does not authorize, as in author, the statement by God that all rights are given by Him. We know that He giveth and He taketh away, at least that is man's perception of God's reign in heaven.

Maybe we should ask Him. He tells some of us sometimes a tiny piece of the Great Puzzle of life.


Mitt Can't Win
Romney presents yet another difficult situation for the GOP: His candidacy would split the evangelical vote between those who are willing to vote for someone with whom they are barely comfortable, and those who simply will not vote for a Mormon.

Regardless of who the GOP nominee is, the 2008 election will be very close. Too close, in fact, for the GOP to afford losing a significant portion of the evangelical vote. Let's face the fact: Romney's religion simply isn't good enough for a portion of the GOP's base.

That certainly doesn't make many evangelicals look very good -- in fact, it makes them look bigoted -- and it doesn't bode well for the GOP's chances if Mitt's the nominee.

Yes, TS, it is......

.......crabby as in crapola, but the MSM is still calling the shots for people who are the majority, so you can be realistic and look at what they leave us or you can take up arms or you can do what our ancestors did and leave the country.

None are good choices. I vote for a slow death instead of a rapid one with the likes of the "she wolf socialist". That gives us some time to develop a countering policy of how to present candidates.

Don't we have any big money people on the right who can finance a new way to speak to the public. Look at CNN. Ted Turner was one man. Where is our one man.


King Lib: I have to go... but this would

be a great debate some other time.

Of course, the libs don't have a leg to stand on, but I think you do have something to debate... especially since our buddie Rudy was the mayor of the biggest "sanctary city" in history.





We could have fun with our disagreements

ELLLLvis
-----

elvis writes: 7:11 PM
not really
hey talent, you must have a lot of time on your hands? you big rascal, riling up all of these fellow saints..oops i meant mormons of mine!

------
ts:
You fellas do stick together
-------

elvis writes:
you really know some things about the mormons, but when you say you have perfect knowledge.of the mormon church..PERFECT KNOWEDGE? only god has perfect knowledge of anything!
----
ts:
Right
That is who gave me the knowledge
--------

elvis writes:

sooo you come off sounding a little arrogant..equal to god!
-----
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Not robbery, its accepting what He has given in His Promise to be joint heirs with Christ.


continued...


Otis
writes: "How can the Mormon's deny the Trinity considering the following statement in their own Book of Mormon authored by Joseph Smith?

Mormon 7:7 in the Book of Mormon:

"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choir above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end."

Good question Otis! It has nothing whatever to do with politics or running for the presidency, but the answer is very simple: Just as the United States has only one Supreme Court comprised of nine justices, we have one God comprised of three personages, God The Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Ghost. These three are one in that they are in total accord and agreement in all things. An evidence of this would be Christ praying to his father in behalf of the Apostles "that they may be ONE even as Thou and I are one". Obviously he was not suggesting that they should turn into one single being.

The Trinity was a greek concept that did not become church doctrine until the Council of Nicea, more than four hundred years later.

Values transcend theology?
For some people, sure. But a lot of people take theology very seriously indeed, and that is why Romney had to address the question.

Hill wrote: "I understand very well that the theological divide between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and historic Protestant and Catholic Christianity is significant. This is one of the reasons why the Romney/Kennedy analogy makes no sense - - it’s a lot easier to connect Catholicism and, say, Evangelicalism, than it is to connect Mormonism with either of the other two."

If you think so, then you understand neither Catholicism nor Evangelicalism. For certain Catholics, Evangelicals are schismatics and heretics, and for certain Evangelicals, Catholics must leave their "unscriptural" denomination if they are to be born again. Because of this, the attempt to establish common ground between Evangelicals and Catholics, published in 1994 as "Evangelicals and Catholics Together," was highly contraversial.

Kennedy had a very specific objection to overcome: was his loyalty to Rome greater than his loyalty to his oath of office? Romney's problem is similar to Kennedy's primarily because lots of people know very little about LDS theology, so they don't know whether there are real conflicts of interest between LDS and Romney's oath of office. There aren't; but lots of folks don't know that.

Romney has the additional problem, though, that a lot of Evangelicals regard him as a cultist. Historically, they have a point. For those people, Romney needs very badly to present himself in the light of the best tradition of American religious liberty.

That's why Romney needed to make the speech.

(Unrelated to this thread, please read my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

I agree with Tancredo_--
I just heard the interview Tancredo gave on why he didn't attend the spanish language debate.
I fully agree with him. The candidates should only address Americans in the english language.
Not pander to certain socio-ethnic groups. Me, my wife and many other Americans have a basic ability speak the languages of our grandparents, but our grandparents were proud to be here and to do their best to learn to communicate in english. We, like them do not expect to be pandered to. We are of skandinavian and western russian background, and have friends of Czech, German, Swedish, and Dutch etc. They expect to be addressed in english and not pandered to .
If we are being insensitive to other special interest groups, then so be it.....Americans first and forever....

My friend
Ellllvis writes:

guess what, you dont know nearly as much as you
think you do! but you believe in god and study the scriptures...i appreciate that.
-----
ts:
An acute over looked fact is, in making such statements, elvis, you do not know anything about me, or what I know.
I just may have stood in the Presence of the Lord and you would never know it.
-------




elvis writes:
one more thing...from ol dream boat(i laughed at that label)you must secretly love romney..you must hire a spy to reveal what kind of tooth paste he uses, when he shaves,the last time he supressed a burp!
---
ts:
Nope, honestly do not like the man



elvis writes:

hate to ruin your weekend: but romney is going to go all the way..will not be easy but he told me last night..i think i will just crank it up a notch..to win,just to upset ol talent scout!
--
ts:
The poor boy, his delusions never end, just grow worse with time.
-------




elvis writes:
hope you have someone to share your holidays with..if not..just get ahold of some romney posters..and hug'em all thru the holidays! smile. elvis
--
ts:
I have a large family who all would use Romney posters for kindling.
My gift to all Romney fans is to vote Hunter/ Tancredo, even paul is sooo much better than this rino

Marine's Dad writes
"Being a member of the LDS Church myself I know that the First Presidency of my church IS NOT going to try to influence any decisions a President Romney might have to make."

I was thinking the same thing myself. I know this to be true.

Mr. Hill, great article. I read one of your articles in the East Valley Tribune recently. If you are from one of the communities of the Valley of the Sun I hope you're a Sun Devil fan, and I hope you share my sentiments regarding the upcoming Holiday bowl. GO ASU!!!! Let's make steaks out of those Longhorns.

Hey Talent Scout...
"elvis writes:

sooo you come off sounding a little arrogant..equal to god!"

to which you reply...
-----
"Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Not robbery, its accepting what He has given in His Promise to be joint heirs with Christ."

Hmmm! looks like you just argued in FAVOR of the MORMON POSITION re: the potential to become like God!

Romney
Although Mitt is not my first choice,I would pull the lever for him if he is the eventual nominee. If Mitt wants to get the media off his back about his religion,he could always convert to Islam. No way would they question him about that!!

Romney and gay marriage
macfan1950 writes: Sunday, December, 09, 2007 5:23 AM
talent scout is misinformed
I've post this before because of talent scout's drive-by's, but might as well keep doing it for the new readers. See:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/front_page/efm_releases_ two_important_doc.php


I checked this out, very good site! It puts the lie to the claim that Romney had anything to do with promoting gay marriage. He did his best to prevent it! It was the far left legislatures refusal to act on a bill that forced the issue.

No no, big difference
wally writes: Sunday, December, 09, 2007 9:38 PM
Hey Talent Scout...

"Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Not robbery, its accepting what He has given in His Promise to be joint heirs with Christ."
-------


wally writes: 9:38 PM
Hey Talent Scout..

Hmmm! looks like you just argued in FAVOR of the MORMON POSITION re: the potential to become like God!
---

Christians believe we become part of the Body Of Christ, and all take on His attibutes.
Made ONE with HIM, not separate as gods.
John 17

Mormons believe they become individual gods equal to the Body of Christ, owning their own planets etc.

St John 17:



.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified F35 through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


clyde, I am definately reading
your posts.

I have a minor problem with Commonwealth Care in MA. (Universal healthcare, as in liberal wet dream.)

Romney also has spoken in a very scornful tones of Reagan, the prolife movement, the passing of traditional marriage legislation in his state,

and he also has in the past made it clear that he thinks the homosexuals cannot be excluded from working for the Boy Scouts. Gun control, another subject in itself.

Well, you can vote for him if you like, but you are falling for an (R). And that is all you are falling for.

Your talk show hosts are not going to come to your rescue; they are not willing to risk very much in this election, put it that way.

just videos of Mitt Romney
http://www.youtube.com/user/romneyrecord

Enjoy!

But, if you are payed by Townhall, by all means, do not look.

paid by townhall
Paid by Townhall?

Cover your eyes!

http://www.youtube.com/user/romneyrecord

Romney
aDNA: The key word here is IF. That remains to be seen. IF it is Mitt v Hillary, in my eyes there is no choice. Mitt,nor ANY of the others are perfect. My first choice,and the one I'll pull the lever for on primary day will be Hunter.

No wally, macfan has avoided the issue
That site may have some facts on it, but it does not address the problem.

Q: Governor, we've had a year a gay marriage now. Do you see any evidence that this undercuts the institution of marriage and has hurt our society in any way? Is there any evidence…

A: Well, there are two things that I think are already apparent. One is that there is the legal confusion that was foretold.
There's a whole series of legal implications of marriage that have not been resolved.

Interestingly, the Supreme Judicial Court I believe signaled that pretty clearly in their original decision, giving to the legislature a period of time to enact statutes that would avoid those legal confusions. The legislature has not done so.
-----
But he went ahead and forced the State to act as if there was a law anyway.

http://massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/press_conf_0 61605.html

it's about the Supreme Court, baby!
Maybe Romney will get some nice guys and gals from Massachusetts to be our Supreme Court Justices. That'd be good.

sarcasm

http://www.youtube.com/user/romneyrecord

Romney
aDNA: Besides,I could give a rats rear about talk show hosts, TV commentators,or whatever. I will look at these candidates through my own eyes. Thanks for advice,however.

No Thank You!
Dear Hill - Romney's speech actually lost him my vote. I realize that we are not electing a theologian in chief, but it is also true that a president's belief system will impact his decisions as president. Romney is a Mormon first and a presidential candidate second - this order will not change should he be elected president (read what Mormon's believe about putting their church first above all else). While other candidates have religious beliefs, their churches do not require them to put their congregations/church first above all else. For Romney to state that his church will not have any influence in his decision making when he is president, is like saying Joe Lieberman's religion does not have any influence in his decisions regarding the middle east - PLEASE! We should at least be honest about what we believe and how it impacts our decision making process. I believe the pacifist view of the mormon church will influence how Romney responds to his duties as the commander in chief's. Romney's speech made me think about the role of his church were he to be elected president and for me, I'd rather deal with Hackabee's liberal social agenda than be governed under the leadership of the Mormon Faith. His moral values may appear to be similar to yours, but try eating at a restaurant in Salt lake city and you will realize that unless a mormon sponsors you, you are not viewed as worthy enough/equal enough to sit at their table - mmmmmmmm. Romeny will still be under the authority of his church and that is what he meant by "being true to the faith of his fathers" - his faith is him!!! LETS SAY NO TO THE MORMON CHURCH LEADING OUR COUNTRY!

aDNA is a very dangerous......

......person. You lie, lie, lie, lie.

You are a liar, an inveterate liar and trouble maker. But no problem, you are not religious to even any minuscule degree, and therefor have no fear of the hereafter. Just keep lying and you will be with Satan in the hereafter.

What a jerk.

Call a SPADE A SPADE.





Sarah

I understand your comment, but

Christianity, not the church, God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, require you to put Them, the Trinity, first.

So what do you say.??.

Unless you are uncomfortable with your church and it's doctrine, you must put your church ahead of anything else. Mormons believe in the Trinity, so I believe them to be Christians. If someone has taught you differently, it was only their opinion subject to total fallacy.


O wow.
So you do not like videos of Mitt Romney.

http://www.youtube.com/user/romneyrecord


Hawk,
Do you really think if Mitt Romney is elected, he will consult you about the justices he will appoint? And the policy he will take in the Middle East?

I am speaking to you as a person, not a hooked man.

Morman Bishop as Commander in Chief
The issue is not what I believe - the issue is how Mitt Romney's membership to the Morman Church, a powerful religious institution like the Vatican, will impact his decision making process when he is president. He was a Bishop in this religious institution - how does that affect his presidency? According to Mitt - it does not affect his presidential decisions at all - huh?

Sarah
You can look at both Huck and Romney's record as Governor and see exactly how their religions effect they way they govern.

Huck is a liberal on most issues except abortion. He is really running as Pastor in Cheif.

Romney on the other hand was very independent of the LDS culture and doctrine in his early positions and more conservative in his last few years. He is running as Mitt Romney, an individual. He currently shares most values with most Evangelicals/Mormons.

Ooo, "he currenly shares most values
with most evangelicals/mormans."

ah ah. Stress on the word "currently".


snicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEOJNw4lmlI