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Sunday, October 21, 2007
Austin Hill :: Townhall.com Columnist
Does Suburban Middle-Class America Still "Support the Troops"?
by Austin Hill
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I awoke before sunrise last Sunday, and stepped outside my home.

And soon I was face-to-face with the United States Army.

No kidding.

The first part of this story is nothing unusual. I live in a middleclass suburb of Phoenix, Arizona, and at this time of the year I’m typically out before sunrise. Likewise, my morning routine of walking and jogging is extremely unspectacular.

In fact, my neighbors might dismissively say that I “walk the dog” everyday. That’s fine, although as I see it I am walking me, and my dog is just privileged enough to join me. But you get the idea.

So, as usual, I stumbled through a dark house, got the workout clothes on, got out the door, and did my stretching. And then I took-off, headed westbound to my nearby “neighborhood park.”

When I say “neighborhood park,” I mean a park that neither was built, nor is maintained, by the city. We have lots of these “parks” in the Phoenix suburbs, parks that were built by private home developers and are maintained by private community associations.

No sooner had I walked down the entry path into the park, when, what to my wondering eyes should appear, but a group of guys in Army uniforms.

Seriously. There were roughly 50 guys who appeared to be fully suited-up, complete with the rifle over the shoulder, apparently “training” in my neighborhood, the lone occupants of the park as the sun was rising.

And this is the unusual part of my story.

After stopping in stunned silence, I began walking laps around the perimeter of the park, to keep myself moving (my routine is supposed to be about exercise, after all), and to see if “the Army” would ask me to leave.

After four laps, I realized that these guys were paying absolutely no attention to me, and were entirely focused on their own exercises, not mine.

Then I got an idea - - I ran back to my house, grabbed a camera and my recently awakened son, and returned to the “training grounds.”

“Wow! Cooool,” my son exclaimed when we got within line of site of the soldiers.

I explained to him that we sometimes call these people “weekend warriors;” that they were likely Army National Guard reservists; and, in exchange for a part-time wage, they commit to doing drills one weekend a month, and make themselves available for active duty whenever called upon.

We watched as they went through their maneuvers, one of which involved about eight men at a time appearing as though they were moving in on a hostage crisis.

“They’re just practicing now” I told my son, “but they are trained to face a real, deadly threat at any time, for the sake of protecting you and me and the rest of the American people.”

After a few minutes, I approached a group of these guys standing around awaiting their turn to drill. “Gentlemen, thank you for your service,” I said to the group.

“Thanks for your support,” several of them replied.

Then one of them, in what seemed like a very rare moment of candor, spoke to me quietly.

“I wish your neighbors were as welcoming as you,” he said. “Has somebody been unwelcoming?” I asked.

“When we first got here, a guy came to us with some papers in his hand. He told us that this is private property, and the homeowner’s association prohibits us from being here. Later another guy came out and told us that we were scaring his children and he wanted us to leave immediately.”

“I’m very sorry,” I said with embarrassment. “You’re always welcome in my neighborhood, as far as I’m concerned.”

“Thank you, sir,” he replied.

He went back to work with his team, and I stood in amazement for a moment, before somberly walking back to my home. “How could anyone be so rude and unwelcoming to the United States military,” I wondered.

It is true that my neighborhood - - park and all - - consists of “private property.” And I haven’t researched this issue, but, legally speaking, I doubt that the military can arbitrarily supersede private property rights on a moment’s notice, just so reservists can train somewhere other than at the armory.

But delving into legal technicalities misses the point. While I was honored by the presence of the troops, others chose to be “scared,” or to complain about perceived private property rights violations.

This didn’t happen in San Francisco or on a university campus. It occurred in an American, suburban, middleclass ( and I might add “predominantly Republican”) neighborhood.

I believe that without the sacrifices of military members, I would have no private property rights. And my son knows that those who wear the uniform are good people.

How are things in your neighborhood?

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About The Author
Austin Hill is a Talk Show Host At Boise, Idaho's 580 KIDO Radio, and a frequent Guest Host on the Fox Newstalk Radio Network. He is the Author of "White House Confidential: The Little Book Of Weird Presidential History," And Co-Author of the forthcoming title "The Virtues Of Capitalism: A Moral Case For Free Markets" (Northfield/Moody Press, 2010).
 
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In this Suburban Middle-Class
neighborhood, we support our troops. Many of us have relatives currently serving, and many more have served.

I would be honored to have them train on my property, if it would be useful. And I'm sure most of my neighbors would feel the same. Any real American would.



Hey Austin
Tell your guardsmen that they are welcom to train on my property at any time and I'll even serve coffee and donuts. God bless them all.


HUNTER/TANCREDO "08"

They are welcome
here in Kansas....this is Dwight Eisenhower's home. Well, anywhere in Kansas except Lawrence probably...that's a hippie commie lib town.

Violation of 3rd amendment
Clear violation of third Amendment plus property right rules. Troops had no "right" to be there on private property.

Ok now I am in in the military and I would let soldiers train on property I owned before anyone goes off the deep end on me. But they had no Right to be there.

And I see Soldiers everyday when I wake up lol. Is it that unusual?

Interesting Article by Iraq Vet
New York Times 10-20-07 has an excellent article "Party Here, Sacrifices Over There" by Will Bardenwerper addressing a related issue, home attitudes toward the military in the ME. The author, returned from a 13-month tour (as an infantry officer) in Iraq, has now gratefully returned to his more pleasant life as a Princeton-educated financial analyst. He says that he is "struck by the disparity between the lives of the few who are fighting and the many who have been asked for nothing more than to continue shopping". He seems appalled by the casual and unconcerned attitude of those around him. (In my own words, many seem to see the war as a video game they can enjoy from the comfort of their family room; I haven't been to Iraq, but he has, and he is saying the same thing.)

Bardenwerper comes down hard on extended and repeat deployments: "The Army is badly damaged". He says it's misleading to say that retention numbers show a professional army glad to be doing what they do; he says that anticipating that stop-loss (having their tours extended) will be unavoidable, many re-up to cash in on the re-enlistment bonuses. He discusses some pros and cons of reinstating the draft.

They Didn't Leave When Asked To?
Just curious, if they were on Association property without the permission of the Homeowners' Association and were informed of this by some duly authorized person and then were asked to leave by a property owner, why did they continue to drill on that property? Granted that many Americans would gladly extend the use of their property to military trainees, there are such things as being courteous and following rules. For a military group to intrude without permission and then (if they did) ignore a polite request to leave suggests an imperious attitude as if to say, "We can do anything we want to because we are the military". This surely would be counterproductive. (Similar situations have arisen when the Navy planned target practice in a recreational boating area of Lake Michigan and when it turned the Caribbean island Vieques into a live-ammo war games area.)

Boy this is a tough one
Almost all the comments are correct. I suspect the commander of their unit may have gotten permission from the association. Not doubt they would have gladly said yes. I would have said exactly what the writer said, thank you and let the people bothered by them fight their own battle, but they do have a point, I don't think there is imminent domain by the day.

Having said that nobody supports our government in this military action and our troops more than I do. It has already been said, but I have 3 acres here, come to train, I will BBQ all you can eat when you have completed your mission.
.

Paul vs. Huckabee on Iraq


Who is right should continue a failed foreign policy “to safe face”?

WATCH


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/paul-vs-huckabee-o n-iraq



Military wife tells off neocon Kristol
DO WE NEED A DRAFT?
USATODAY-Veteran stress cases up sharply

The number of Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans seeking treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder from the Department of Veterans Affairs jumped by nearly 20,000 — almost 70% — in the 12 months ending June 30, VA records show.

More than 100,000 combat veterans sought help for mental illness since the start of the war in Afghanistan in 2001, about one in seven of those who have left active duty since then, according to VA records collected through June. Almost half of those were PTSD cases

READ MORE

Military wife tells off neocon Kristol

WATCH

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/do-we-need-a-draft





Hey Konop
If you like, tell your friends not to VOLUNTEER for the Military, it's a hard life. But if some want to preserve FREEDOM for their children and grandchildren, please encourage them, it's a worthwhile career. We loved it for 22 years, and we still support our troops. So if our VOLUNTEERS get "Afghanistan Stress" we'll support them too.

An American Patriot
You cannot be against our military and their missions and be an American Patriot.

Our military acts on the ideals and foundations of our nation rooted in freedom & democracy, for which they preserve, protect and defend.

If our nation believes "all men are created equal", that every human being deserves to be treated equal, that one's life should be given the opportunity for liberty and the pursuit of happiness, then offering the opportunity of freedom & democracy through our military force to other nations becomes one of the most noble and responsible goals of our nation.

To think or behave otherwise, is to NOT be an American Patriot.

Lilly and John Konop arn't so
strange bedfellows.
They both drag seeming unrelated articles into the comments from apparent different points of view or understandings of political persuations.
But, in the end, they are both comming from the same point of view.
If there are any real Paul supporters out there, don't you see where your argument resides? Look at your bedfellows, you'll hate yourself in the morning.

John Konop
Just curious, is the policy failed while it's still in progress with no "finish line" as of yet?

Or is it failed in the middle of its progress toward one end or the other of success?

How can you call something failed when it hasn't come to completion by which an assessment can be drawn?

You could say the same thing about someone receiving chemo for their cancer then since the situation gets much, much worse before it gets better. "Well, this is a failed treatment, look how awful this person appears; notice how bad their body appears..."

Then at some point the cancer either turns around and the person gets better or they die.

But you can't know that until it's complete.

So, I ask again, how have you come to a conclusion when the policy isn't complete because the mission hasn't reached its end?


You cannot know of something until it is over. Then, and only then, can you know something of what it was when you can clearly see its evolution and its end.

Negativity must not win.
I came across a couple of people I had asked if they knew any servicemen serving in active duty we could send Christmas packages to, and they responded no. They then answered very negatively "they should be brought home,we are spending all our money, and those people will never change". My response was, "please listen and watch what is really going on". Why is it people who have no loved ones involved are so negative? I am so thankful we have our dedicated troops, and their supporting families, and we do not have to count on these negative people to keep our and their freedoms. I also hope all our negative politicians do not get to run our country.

Thanks Dolly
You sound like a voter for Huckabee, Hunter or Romney. Thank you.

There's enough negativity born into most of us that we don't need politicians who come across negatively to make us more so.

I only get really negative when a politician I really hate comes out a winner.

By the way, I guess most of you have seen that Jindal is the new governor of Louisiana. Yep, the 36 year old Republican blew everybody out of the water. Seems like he got 53% of the vote yesterday while the Demoncrat got 18% in a heavily Demoncrat state.


Tinsldr2
I didn't see enough info in the article to determine if a violation occurred or not. The article only said that the park was not a city park. It said the "neigborhood maintained the park, it did not say who owned the park. Perhaps they did have permission from the real owners to drill there and some of the "neighbors" were just being like a small percentage of "neighbors" everywhere. They were being AH's.

scooternyc writes:
So, I ask again, how have you come to a conclusion when the policy isn't complete because the mission hasn't reached its end?

Ok that smacks of common sense, why you using it on libs? Plain fact is if one has all the numbers (not sure where to get them) I think many would be surprised the number that have NOT left the service, and many more have joined up since 2001 and what do you glean from that? I think we can gather that a great many young people think this country is worth paying the price, what ever it may be. So when this lib or that lib tells you that they know somebody that has done this or says that, its ok, the service persons have a right to their opinion, just that its not the majority. IMO And yes, they can use my house if they like, I support them and their mission!

HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com


Did it occur to anyone?

Did it occur to anyone that the commander of the unit had obtained permission from the homeowner's assocaition??

That the person with the hand full of papers was not aware or did not care whether permission was given.


Things are as they should be

Things are as they should be in my area.

When a funeral procession for a soldier made its way down the highway enroute from the funeral home to the cemetery, people pulled off to the side of the road and showed their respect.

I'm sure they were of different races, creeds, political parties; but they stopped to show respect.

Scooter says:
"You cannot be against our military and their missions and be an American Patriot. "

No, but you can be against this kind of blatant, facile, grade-school pandering and be an American citizen. The troops are at the whim of the president - who is a politician first and the head of his political party. You better remember your own words when there's a Democrat in office and you have troops flooding the Sudan (or somewhere) - because ALL of us remember the way REPUBLICANS acted towards the Bosnia excursion - and supportive it was not...

Negativity must not win
Dolly I've had similar conversations. I've even been accused of "being for the war" because I have no family members involved. That's when I launch into my pro victory/Soldiers' Angels talk...and ask them how many military members they're acquainted with. If you are still looking to send Christmas packages, try Soldiers' Angels or AnySoldier.com.

U folks are some of the DUMBest I ever..
Do any of you clowns own a telephone??? Hmmm?

The Schmuckmeyer waving the papers - Call your Homeowners Association - Query! If the soldiers do NOT have permission - ask the Assoc to take action.

Austin - Call the soldiers home base - probably the nearest armory. If in doubt, ask the man in charge. Query his Commanding Officer.

Is this soooo very difficult????

Konop
I think the misleading infformation on the number of vets seeking help is due to the fact of "decompression". My husband was in the military and served honorably in Desert Storm. He has been in several "skirmishes" across teh globe since 1980. Here's his assessment of the frequency of PTSD:
In WW II the time between getting your orders to leave the field of combat and returning to your own back yard was around 6 months. There was time to "decomprress". To become acclimated once again to the civilian life without people shooting at you or throwing grenades. Men spent the slow trip home talking about what had happened with others who had been through the same experience. ( a sort of "group therapy" if you will). By Korea in the '50s, that decompression time was down to about 3 months. Viet Nam brought it down to roughly a month, and by Desert Storm the boys got their orders and were home in a week or two. With no time to decompress, no one at home to truly understand the horrors of what had been seen and done, the men have no where to turn to speak to someone they can trust not to judge them harshly. Let's face it, killing another human being, even when you know they are going to kill you first if you don't take quick action, is psychologically harmful for 99.9% of the population. How can we citizens who have never experienced the heat of battle possibly understand what those troops are going through?
My husband was in abattlefield one day and at home a week later; freaking out over the fireworks of July 4th because they sounded too much like artillery. We need to get our collective heads out of our fourth point and give these men and women time to adjust to the "normalcy" of not being shot at or worrying that the parked car next to your house doesn't have IEDs in it.
All that being said, beer and BBQ on the house for anyone who protects me in the far reaches of this world.

Actually I really can spell...
It's Sunday and I'm half-way through my first cup of coffee. The gist of my 9:36 POV is in the post however, so please forgive a hard worker who slept in this morning. LOL

Sorry dogpile
The troops are not at the President's whims. They are all volunteer soldiers doing a job. Bosnia? Um, we're still there at another President's whims, aren't we? But you are trying to say we didn't support it? Why aren't you yelling that those troops should come home?

Anyway, the people who act like seeing soldiers is a trauma need to go learn some history again. Boo f-ing hoo, they're scared? How scared will they be if we didn't have them?

The 3rd Amendment
The 3rd Amendment is about the quartering of soldiers in a home without the consent of the owners. Basically it means that military troops do not have a right to take over private homes during peacetime; and since no one was trying to take over private homes (or property)I fail to see any violation of the Constitution here.

Further, why is it that everyone assumes that the Guard did not have permission from the homeowners association to be there? Just because homeowner A doesn't know about it, does not mean that the association did not approve it. I seriously doubt that the Guard just "invaded" this park without prior permission.

WHOSE neighborhood association?
Has anyone considered that many of those drilling Guardsmen may have been residents of that neighborhood? As such, they're as entitled to use the park for LEGAL activities as anyone else. Last time I checked, activities like those described are legal...at least as legal as picnics, parties, and ballgames. At least they had the courtesy to conduct their exercises at a time when few others would be impacted by it. I doubt many of the people who use Mr. Hill's neighborhood park even think to check with the neighborhood association beforehand. I side with Vic...some of the "neighbors" were just being like a small percentage of "neighbors" everywhere. They were being AH's.

Every neighborhood has people suffering from "Cranial Rectal Inversion" syndrome.

Hektor


WE have a "tiny" community plot
We're in Maryland, next to Ft. Meade, the majority of our neighbors are either Active Duty or Federal workers, we're an NSA ghetto (not like Columbia that claims to be one)

Com'on over! But for neighborhood practice, leave the "live" stuff in the Armory -- Thank-you!!!

One of the guys on the HOA Board is a retired First Sergeant, I'm sure we can whip together a community picnic in a few hours.

My Mom's neighborhood (NE Ohio), a little harder, but can do easy as well.

Here in Maryland a large number of our National Guard units are "over-there." Lots of yellow ribbons around, lots of prayers at services and events for them all.

Com'on over, we'd love to have you.

Mister NY Dog scribbles:
because ALL of us remember the way REPUBLICANS acted towards the Bosnia excursion - and supportive it was not...

That statement is like roberta roberta pull up, full of it. Sure I think the billarys are full of it, but any time you try to prevent genocide it is worth it. Even if he was wagging the dog!

If we can not have security FIRST, the rest won’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com




If we can not have security FIRST, the rest won’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Mister NY Dog
It won't who is in the White House, if the mission of our soldiers is that of freedom & democracy, which are precepts are founded on, then I don't care who's in the White House - I care more about humanity and that ALL humans have the opportunity at life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness through freedom & democracy.

It's not a partisan issue if you have an inherent goodness and humanity towards others.

It's only partisan if you discriminate others by what you think they deserve or don't deserve.

"matter"
"It won't 'matter' who's in the White House" - clarification for the omission.

king liberal
oh it is possibe to not support the war and yet support the troops unfortually most people who do not suppor the war are not doing it in a way that supports the troops. Most people are against this war in Iraq only because Bush started it.

oh and when a person tells troops training they are scaing children that is a support the troop issue as most children i know love to watch soliders only families that tell their kids soliders are bad would have children scared of soliders

Austin Hill
Unfortunately “Support the troops” has become a slogan to both gin up and bludgeon voters with to support political parties, rather than an actual dedication to provide soldiers and sailors with the best possible accommodations for their mission.

Anyone remember this quote? SPC Thomas Wilson: “We're digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that has already been shot up, dropped, busted-- picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles go into combat.
We do not have proper armament vehicles to carry with us North.”

And what about the 1161 Minnesota National Guardsmen, after being deployed longer than any other ground combat unit (22 months) who were denied full GI Bill benefits because their orders were drawn up for 729 days? To be eligible for full benefits you have to be deployed for 730 days?

Not to mention the Walter Reed fiasco, involuntarily extended orders, shortened rest time, truncated training schedules, inadequate planning, and negligent accountability and oversight.

It’s a shame, Austin, that a few spoiled dullards in a mainly Republican neighborhood don’t like the military mustering in a local park. But it is a travesty what this administration has foisted upon our troops as a matter of policy.

Every time some
left winger says you can't really be supporting the troops unless you enlist, or force your kids to do so, it makes me want to say to them "you can't really be in favor of welfare payments unless you take a vow of poverty and donate any funds above the poverty line to the govt for re-distribution.

campagnolo
The travesty is in your citizenship to a nation that has endorsed freedom & democracy to the extent that you enjoy and indulge in it all the while attempting to thwart and malign it.

You don't understand freedom & democracy so how could you possibly understand the war.

Rescind your citizenship and go live elsewhere.

chr3354
You are mistaken, it is NOT possible to support our troops and NOT support the war. You have a conflagration of understanding.

scooternyc
Your comments are totally out of line. You provide nothing in response to what I posted but ad hominem drivel. Don't tell me to live elsewhere. I served in the military for six years. Did you? Yeah...I thought so.

campagnolo
Either you are an American Patriot or you are not, sir.

If you are not, then you are a coward and have disgraced our nation and the military by coming onto this blog and making irresponsible statements against this war and those that fight it while you sleep so safely every night.

Your statements masquerade of your service, yet seek to manipulate the emotional instability of anyone who would indulge such rhetoric.

Either you understand being an American Patriot or you do not.

Either you understand the principles of our founding or you do not.

Either you understand this war or you do not.

Take your emotional baggage with you on your trip to Iran or wherever the h*ll you slink off to as the snake you are.

A Libertarian View
As a libertarian, I almost agree with Austin Hill. This is indeed a rare moment.

In early America, the militias (both state militias and the so-called "unorganized" militias) used public parks all the time to train. No one was offended. No one got hurt. I have no problems with free Americans keeping and bearing arms any time they please.

Today, however, anyone trying to start or join an "unorganized" militia will get arrested, though they have every right, under the Constitution, to do so.

As recently as the 1960's, it was not unusual for high school students (even in NYC) to take their rifles to school for use in the after-school shooting club. They would check their weapons at the office and pick them up after school for practice. Again, no history of these shooting clubs turning into all-out firefights.

Having said that, I have absolutely no support for the insane mission in the Middle East. I support the Second Amendment and militias, but I don't support the imperial nightmares of our masters in Washington.

In short, I trust the American people. I fear and loathe the American government in Washington.

Scooternyc
Apparently you have severe reading comprehension problems. My post is in defense of the troops and is critical of the undermining of their mission through politics. You are a ideologue. Your posts are completely beyond the pale. I feel sorry for you and your ability to see beyond your hatred.
I will not respond to any more of your lunatic ravings.

Feigned Military Service campanglo
You cannot possibly know ALL there is to know about this war, its strategy and all the nuances it requires - you can only conjecture and your conjecture is tainted by your inability to be well-adjusted emotionally in order to understand the conflict, it's long-term ramifications if success is not had and the tactics taken to create that achievement.


And your inept comparison of my service as to my ability to speak on the subject of being an American Patriot, is in opposition to the very foundations of our freedoms - once again, you reveal your cowardice as a former soldier - you're pathetic.


scooternyc
Okay, one more response.

My service was real, not feigned. I have the DD-214 to prove it. Of course you wouldn't know what that is...obnoxious coward.

Yes, and you campanglo
reveal the nature of your inability to filter your distaste for our military by making this statement, which reveals all:

"But it is a travesty what this administration has foisted upon our troops as a matter of policy."

This is your revelation of self as the coward you are; the pathetic individual who calls himself an American Patriot and then masquerades his inability to have integrated unresolved emotional issues by making such disgusting statements, the likes of which you have no detail of idea.



scooternyc

It is not becoming to question the service of one you never met.

You appear to think that your existence has made you wise and all knowing.

Packrat
Oh, I question not his service, I know by his statements that his service was feigned and ignoble - I have no doubt about that at all.

One does not call himself an American Patriot and then speak about the military as this coward has revealed.

Scooternyc
I don't mind debating issues with evidence and reason, but there is no sane way to argue with your ridiculous psycho-babble. I read your Bio on your blog. Deeply disturbing.

But hey, you paid good money for that Sally Struthers degree in Psycho-babble. Might as well use it, eh?


campagnolo
Yes, divert the conversation away from the revelation of your ignoble service and cowardice, but you cannot save yourself from yourself by deflecting attention to me.

To this end you do not understand what it is to be an American Patriot. That is the place from which I have spoken - that is what was written by myself on this thread, and that is what I have referred to in this exchange.

So chalk up your incompetence to all the other shortcomings you have, as well.

Just more of your emotional unresolved issues spitting themselves out on this thread for all the world to observe.

Supporting the troops, but not the war..
is like supporting your son or daughter in college, but hoping they fail.

The way I see it
Is that if these Guardsmen were drilling in this park, they most likely had obtained permission from at least one, if not more representative(s) of the Home Owners Association.
If the person/people who gave the permission did not inform the people living around the park, or for that matter, since Mr. Hill didn't know they'd be there, everyone else living in the neighborhood, those who don't want the troops drilling in the park have a beef with the HOA people who gave permission, not with the troops.

As for the troops "scaring our kids," The only circumstance in which I can imagine that troops drilling would scare children is if the parents of those children were telling them that the military is bad or evil. In my experience, most kids, especially boys, react like Mr. Hills son did upon seeing the troops drilling, fascinated.

Kids learn to play "war" naturally(I know we did when I was yong) in most cases and most parents not only don't object, but encourage it as naturally as they encouage kids to play cops and robbers.
Those who discourage either, IMO, are doing their children a dis-service because I see it as discouraging a natural instinct to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil.
My 6 year old grandson knows that his uncle is in the Marine Corps(and what he's doing) and he absolutely adores his uncle.
But he also knows why Jeff is gone(and the possibility that he might not come back alive), and sees nothing wrong with it since what Jeff is doing over there has been explained to him in a good light rather than an evil/bad one as I suspect some of Mr. Hills neighbors have probably done with their children.

Hektor
"At least they conducted their activities at an hour when few would be disturbed buy it." Excuse me? At dawn on a Sunday, in a covenanted residential neighborhood, with no previous announcement to residents, conducting military drilling and war-games? Many homeowners' associations prohibit even lawn-mowing before 9 on a Sunday morning. And so what if some of the soldiers were residents of the community---that does NOT give them the right to offend, disturb, or annoy their neighbors, any more than if they throw a drunken brawl at night or run an auto body shop out of their garage. I have lived in communities with homeowners' associations for the past 30 years and I know this to be true---you do not get to do any old thing you want to just because you live there, and you certainly don't get to invite others in to do it with you---even visitors to a swimming pool are limited by rules. This past year in my present community, the owner of a property was fined $200 because his renter and three outside friends sneaked into the swimming pool, illegally, very early on a Sunday morning and created a noisy disturbance.

When Democrats were in power and we used to hear plenty about the intrusions of government, the phrase "jack-booted thugs" came into being. The phrase is now appropriate when we think of civilian families being abruptly awakened at 6 AM on a Sunday by a uniformed army, with rifles, storming through their residential park: frightened children, alarmed residents. And since we are playing shrink this morning, let's point out that cheering such military behavior extends the cheerleader's sadism: "I identify with the military and just love it when they stomp around doing anything they want, scaring people---the military and I rule around here".

And let's not forget that, as per the report in the article, the army did not leav the premises when requested to do so.

We're spoiled, generally
That's the only explanation I can think of for Hill's neighbors' reaction to seeing Guardsmen training.

Even among those who support the war against Islamofascism, you're going to find people who don't want to be inconvenienced in any way.

We're spoiled. We've had it so good, for so long, that we forget the kind of effort, sacrifice, that it takes to keep things so good.

My father (b. 1938) has made the observation that during World War II, you saw rationing, scrap drives, Victory gardens. Everyone spared, saved, made whatever sacrifices he could, to contribute to winning the war. We don't see that now.

Now, sure, it hasn't been necessary to take those measures, so far, in fighting a non-state enemy. But those measures helped bring home, in a very real way, the fact that we were at war.

But now, we don't have to, and so, successive generations of Americans, mostly made up of people who have had their way for so long, get irritated when they see Guardsmen drilling.

As has been noted, America is not at war. The Marines are at war. America is at the mall.

Maybe we need another Depression, to focus the mind.

Hillary delenda est.

What parents should explain
Hey, King Liberal, is it any more or less appropriate for a parent to explain to his child what a soldier is, than to teach sex ed to successively younger grades of children in our public schools?

If they can handle the birds and the bees, as the Socialists would have us believe, I think they can get their minds around the concept of soldiering and the military.

Hillary delenda est

I couldn't have said it better myself
Elsinore660 writes: Sunday, October, 21, 2007 12:08 PM
Supporting the troops, but not the war..
is like supporting your son or daughter in college, but hoping they fail.


There is simply no way one can "Support the troops but not their mission," since the mission(Iraq or any other) is why we have the military to begin with.
Their MAIN MISSION is to serve and defend their country, even at the peril of sometimes putting their lives on the line to do so. They all volunteered for it. They all knew the risks, yet signed on the dotted line anyhow. So we owe it to them to give them unqualified 100% support for every phase of their service.

You can't have it both ways.

Man, that little flame out says it all
You two "patriots" are tearing eachothers throats out over who is more patriotic, or whose service is more meaningful. And you are both wrong.

The founding of this nation was specifically organized to prevent the abuse of the Commander-in-chief's powers. That was the greatest fear of those founding a democracy: knowing that in times of real war, the Commander must have near absolute power, but, if a false war were trumped up, then this nation would become a despotic state run by a tyrant.

This administration has divided this nation, look at you two, into enemy camps. You two are obviously not far from eachother's beliefs and yet you are about to kill eachother.

Now, let me tell you what should unite you: 9-11 is most probably a complete fraud, so the whole GWOT is also a complete fraud. If you don't think somethink like that could be arranged read "Legacy of Ashes" by Tim Weiner, which shows how, although completely incompetent, the C.I.A. through raw power, using bought media, actual C.I.A radio transmission towers, millions of dollars in bribes, siphoned off the Marshall plan, etc. has consistantly undermined democracy around the world and engineered war and civil unrest (the terrorism in Guatamala lead to 40 years of bloodbath) and has in fact created all of our modern enemies for their own benefit.

That is an example of patriotism gone bad.

The evidence against the official story of 9-11 is staggering. I can explain, but I am limitted to 2,000 characters. 9-11 was an inside job.

And yet we went to war. You two are arguing about who is more patriotic. And there is justifiable concern about soldiers marching in our streets.

Who was duly authorized?
Sorry, lilly, but there is no specific mention in Hill's article that indicates that anyone who complained to the Guardsman was a duly authorized representative of anything. There is only mention that one of the residents had papers in his hand. That doesn't indicate anything.

Hillary delenda est.

What's your point, whopulled7?
Your references to the CIA's misdeeds, and to conspiracies behind 9/11, mean that National Guardsmen shouldn't drill on private property, or that they should?

Hillary delenda est.

BTW, did the CIA educate Said al-Qutb? And I supposed they used a time machine to go back to Arabia in the eighteenth century and support Ibn Wahhab, too?

To Packrat: Re Private Property
If the military group had permission from the owners and if the parkland was owned by the homeowners' association governing the community (the article implies that situation since he refers to the park being "maintained by a private community association"), state condominium law in my state (I don't know about Arizona, where this took place) would require that the decision to give permission be voted by the full Board of Directors in an open meeting attended by any association members choosing to be there. This decision would have been reflected in the minutes of that meeting, which would have been provided to all members after the meeting, so that residents (including the author) would have known about this facility use in advance. "Permission" given privately by one board member receiving a phone call from somebody who knows somebody who knows one of the military guys, would be invalid. Ditto if one Director OK's an encampment of Gypsies or a pig roast on the community greenspace.

My impression from reading many townhall posts is that Libertarian conservatives are unhappy with living under the rule of civil law. So they must all have heart attacks if they buy into a community controlled by a homeowners' association, where you have to have a strong tolerance for rules: pets or no pets, number of pets, size of pets, hours you can dump garbage, hours you can use the swimming pool, number of guests in pool, number and type of vehicles you can park in front of your house, color of shutters, color you can paint your porch, etc---let alone bringing in an army at dawn, with rifles yet, to march and shout. Not to mention trampling grass and plants paid for by association dues. This issue isn't about supporting the troops: it's about supporting the right to private property.

scooternyc
You are the quintessential chickenhawk. All bluster and hubris...until the recruiter comes around...then you hide under your flag draped sheets in fear that you might actually have to serve your country with action rather than hyperbolic rhetoric.

I gave examples of the administration undermining the effectiveness of the mission. I believe they have let down the troops with their planning and execution of this conflict. I also stated I thought Autin's neighbors were shameful for their actions.

You can't even defend the examples. So you question my military service. What an ugly American you are.

Whopulled7: You are completely wrong. I am not claiming a higher level of patriotism. I am defending myself from a shameless and disgusting attack by a psycho-babbling dolt.







Support the 1%
Active Duty military comprise only 1% of the population (not counting all you wonderful vetrans out there)

Therefore, the troops constitute a REAL minority. In that light, the folks that objected to the training were simply displaying their bigotry. They probably never even saw a 'real' soldier before.

People fear what they don't understand.

That we have a sector of our population that doesn't understand should be a source of concern for all Americans.

Also, If exposing children to the military is such a traumatic experience (as expressed by someone on this thread) Do you likewise protect them from violence and overt sexual exploitation and glorification in the entertainment/advertising and video game arena?

I submit only a child that never watched TV or saw a movie, or was exposed to print media or video games would be safe from 'traumatic' exposure. Get Real.

These are the kind of parents that leave their children totally unprepared for the realities of life. What happens when Rover dies? Do you tell little one that he just 'went away?' Children can handle truth. Some adults, apparently, cannot.

Have you hugged your soldier today?

My last was to Campago and scooternyc
At the time I wrote there was nothing else going on except the patriotic peeing contest. To end the stupid argument, can you support troops and not support the war, just listen to any of the retired generals who have said the war is a failure. 1. you would have tough time calling them cowards or unpatriotic. 2. Military law prevents them from disagreeing while in the chain of command. They have therefore proven that patriots can be against the war. End of Debate.

Now, I will show you that 9-11 was indeed an inside job. I can already hear all of you saying: "Ignore that post, ignore that post!" and I can predict "tin-foil, must, repeat, tin-foil, tin-foil". BTW I have posted as Trughes, you might recognise my tenor. But that is my Windows and this is Linux.

To get to my proof (of course no positive statement can be proved, but only by disproving all possible alternative explanations, but you all know that, being versed in scientific theory) all I have to say is : a collapsing building should not have 95% of it's mass expelled outside the footprint as in the case of the two towers. Only explosive force could explain that violation of basic physics. Objects only move in the direction in which force is applied and in the official mythology gravity is the only force pulling the buildings down. If the bottom portion had strength to ricochet the falling portion outwards, then the bottom would necessarily have had the force to keep standing. Only the explosions that were reported over and over could explain those collapses.

Thank you and I close my case.

Final verse of OUR National Anthem
I wish we sang this verse instead of the usual first of four....

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Weird!
I think this story is so weird that I almost question the author's assertion that this was the National Guard and not a paramilitary terrorist organization that bizarrely is permitted to exist in parts of our country like Islamberg New York and Red House Virginia.

To plehi
The NYT article I cited expressed the author's dismay that middle-class civilian Americans are not really attuned to our troops in Iraq. The subject article of this thread expresses the author's dismay that his middle-class Arizona neighbors were not really attuned to our troops training to go to Iraq. Is that such a stretch? And all Democrats don't hate the troops. If I owned a piece of land where these guys needed to train, I would have no problem letting them use it, and would probably bake cookies and serve coffee for them afterwards. That's not the same as conducting unannounced war games at 6 AM on private property on a Sunday among surprised civilian residents, which showed somebody's poor grasp of the need for careful military-community relations.

Support!!!
As A Vet I will allways support the troops for they carry the brunt and sacrifice for America, something the Politiicans who don't know the first thing of sacrifice.They are the face of this Nation and are willing to give of there life for the most basic beliefs, and most of all the are not the priviledged like the politicians who make the decisions. They most of all deserve our support because the Government will forget as they did after Vietnam.Maybe if more Americans would sacrifice for the greater good we would not have such a pathetic government or Politicians who don't represent the future of this once proud Nation.God Bless our young troops and maybe we will learn from there Sacrifice for a better future !!!

To theBaron
The resident who complained appeared not to have had previous warning of the "attack" by the military, and the author himself makes it clear that he was surprised by the military presence. See my previous post about how homeowners' associations work. They are tightly governed by state law---in my state, anyway---I don't know about Arizona. The resident "with papers in his hand" apparently did not have one stating that his Board of Directors had voted in their majority to allow the event, and he had not been advised of such a decision. That's all that's needed for him to have a perfect right to complain. Thus he was not a military-hating terrorist-loving wimp, but just an American citizen defending his property rights.

Poser
I wonder if the homeowners would have been as upset if the circus came to their 'patch?'

Some Times
Like you I live in a predominantly Republican middle class neighborhood but it is not pure--we have a few Democrats. I have had words with them because they admit to being Socialist and I hate Socialist and thieves; they are the same. I have told them all, thank God for the secret ballot, if you vote for a candidate to take money from my pocket and give it to another citizen, by name, I will not be kind when I take my retribution. College grants, hotel bills, and home refurbishment for Katrina victims using my money is unconstitutional. Keep your hands out of my pockets, forced benevolence is not the American way.

Thank You
Beckie

God Bless you and your family and that was a very interesting post. Thanks jk

From The General
scooternyc

IRAQ GENERAL SANCHEZ CALLS IT A FAILED POLICY

WATCH

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/iraq-general-sanch ez-calls-it-a-failed-policy




What is right thing to do?
When we will care about what is right not about what people think? Does it occur to anyone that most people might be wrong on some issues at least sometimes?

The war in Iraq was a wrong thing to do to begin with. It does not matter what this or other group of people think about this now.

The right thing is to get out of there as soon as possible.

Private Property
I agree One Hundred percent with this lady! How dare anyone compromise on where our military practices. If it wasn't for our Military we would not have the freedoms we enjoy today! Maybe we should just let the bad guys win and then see what happens. I bet those people would surely change their stance. I believe in what the United States of America Stands for, but in order to have the rights and freedoms that we are so blessed with in this country. We need our Military might! God Bless each one of our troops!

Troops in the neighborhood
Two comments:
1) I would have mnore respect for those who support the troops and want them to come home to "save their lives" if these same people stood up for the American children in this country.

There are about about 800 children ages 0 to 13 years old murdered every year in this country or about the same number of American troops killed in Iraq. Who is crying for these children or printing their names in the newspaper? The murdered children did not volunteer to put themselves in harm's way for the good of the nation. The progressive, liberal, leftists do not care about the troops or the children.

There are also the same number of children 14 to 17 years old murdered in this country as our troops in Iraq. Have you noticed their names in the newspaper or on TV?

Go to http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/vagetab.htm

2) Only in the United States would a person walk up to a group of armed men and tell them to "move on because they are on private property". In most countries the citizens would be hiding under their beds.

Complainers had to be liberal Democrats
The attitude displayed by the whiners is conducive to typical liberal behavior. They say they support the troops. Yea , right.

Liberal Democrats hate the military
Even though that same miltary protects them day in and day out. The party of losers is invested in failure in Iraq. I support our troops by sending money to groups listed on the http://www.americasupportsyou.mil web site. My family contributes boxes of items listed as needed by our soldiers, to a local company sending packages to Iraq and Afghanistan.
What are you doing during this time of WAR?

NEOCONS DO NOT RESPECT THE TROOPS
bro,

I am no liberal but I do not think liberals hate the troops. I would say NEOCONS do not respect the troops!

Look how well they treated them in this war!

BTW if you add up support for Ron Paul and Dems against the war that is more than 50% of the troops!

The Other Iraq Surge

“People are saying now enough is enough,” said Lt. Col. Joyce Griggs, an intelligence officer who said she spent two months in Baghdad earlier this year, speaking for herself and not the Army. “If you’re a soldier, you’re going to do your job, do what you’re commanded to do. But that sentiment is wide and deep.”

READ MORE


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/the-other-iraq-sur ge


JO
"I believe in what the United States of America Stands for, but in order to have the rights and freedoms that we are so blessed with in this country. We need our Military might! God Bless each one of our troops! "

Have you protested the President's budget to your congress persons? Have you demanded that they be taken care of and rebuilt? I wager not....

Austin Hill
Austin Hill is "phony" journalist.
This article is intended to try and "correct" his many past screwups where he knocked the U.S. military.
He would not know how to follow a story if there was a chain attached to it.

Guests of Association Members
Maybe someone in the Guard unit was a member of the homeowners association and invited his or her "friends", the unit, to come and enjoy the park for the morning.

whopulled7
had me reading right up until:
Now, let me tell you what should unite you: 9-11 is most probably a complete fraud,



If we can not have security FIRST, the rest won’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com


my four terms of service
To read many of the Posts here today, it seems that whether you served in the military or not, makes all the difference in your patriotism.

Well, let’s see how many of you can match my four terms of service in three branches of the military, and my WW II injury.

While my older brothers were off fighting the war, I received a WW II injury. Paul won a Bronze Star Award for his heroic efforts in the Battle of the Bulge on Dec. 20, 1944, and Jesse’s US Navy Destroyer sunk two Jap ships at Iwo Jima four days later, and neither of them got a scratch.

Fertilizer came in 167 pound bags, and that bag, a ten gallon can of milk, and a bale of hay were rather heavy for the back of a 14 or 15 year old kid. And it still hurts.

These days I am in such physical condition that I can touch my knees without bending my elbows.

-------

NUMBER ONE: (3 months) At the age of 15 I was a member of the Ohio State Guard Band, in Akron. There were very few members in this band, most were elderly or retired professional musicians, so with their overage and my underage, at least a couple of us averaged a lawful age.

One night at Taps (bedtime bugle call), four musicians arrived back in camp, so drunk they could hardly walk. They picked up instruments — two trumpets, a trombone, and a bass horn — and played Taps.

No one ever heard Taps played like that before, soldiers sleeping in tents, cheered for an encore. The commanding officer, in his pajamas, came to congratulate these guys.

The next morning, sober, they tried and tried, even with the help of other excellent musicians, could not repeat the previous nights performance.

The four man jam-session spectacular, dramatic musical arrangement required a fifth — of liquor.

three branches of the military
NUMBER TWO: (3 months) In March 1946 I spent my 18th birthday as a member of the Merchant Marine, on a troopship, SS Marine Cardinal, in the harbor of Singapore, on my way from Manila, Philippines, to Calcutta, India.

NUMBER THREE: (18 months) Brother Johnny and I were in Basic Training together. He slept in the upper bunk, me in the lower.

For our graduation, after each group of shells were fired from the 105mm howitzer, the members of the crew were to rotate so each had a turn on each position. The Sergeant told us to go through the motions, but Johnny and I were always Number One and the Gunner.

The Colonel in charge, who could not imagine any gun crew doing so well, trained his field-glasses on us and soon discovered what was happening. The Colonel congratulated Johnny and I, but was very unhappy with the Sergeant.

NUMBER FOUR: (10 months) I better give at least one story of something good that resulted from being recalled to the Army for the Korean War. It doesn’t make war OK for the general public, but for me, two byproducts were outstanding.

I mentioned to my sister’s friend (her husband had been recalled to the Navy), “I have no one to kiss good-bye.” She said, “I should have thought of you.” That very day at lunch, her coworker, Emmy, said, “You girls need to get me a date.”

Pat gave me the phone number of her beautiful friend, and the rest is history, or better yet, herstory. For over 55 years that “phone” rang and rang and rang, and was “answered” each and every time.

The other byproduct of being called back to Army, was that I got very involved with IBM machines, my career for the rest of my payroll life. (1950)

Hey, I never said it amounted to anything, but I was there!!!

largecaliber
It doesn't work that way. If you live in a community subject to state condominium law, which usually covers communities with a homeowners' association, as an individual owner you cannot compromise the use of commonly-held property (parkland, greenspace, swimming pool, tennis courts, bike paths etc). You cannot, for example, invite forty friends to swim in your community pool: the number of guests is limited. You cannot invite a troop of Boy Scouts to camp overnight on your community-owned parkland. You can't give permission to the National Guard to train on your land even if you are president of the Board of Directors. Only a vote of the full board, held in an open meeting, can make that decision.

What are we seeing here? Are conservatives opposed to the rule of law?

$27,000 Oh-boy rollin'n dough!
John Konop writes: Sunday, October, 21, 2007 3:30 PM
"NEOCONS DO NOT RESPECT THE TROOPS"

"I feel that he's the most progressive candidate and he stands for change," Griggs said.

It appears the NEOCONS need to reform their ways. If they would consider just not respecting "progressives" (read that D.U.I.) in the military, they would be better off. My guess is the Lt. Col. Griggs cited, is in conformance with my experience.

"People have been saying all along that this whole surge would not work. They said it before it happened," Griggs, the Army officer, said. "I think the American public is getting less and less tolerant, and this report (from Petraeus) didn't help that at all."

If people cite political donations, and support for candidates, they need also expose the mind set of the persons they quote. You may quote my experience with officer and enlisted ranks. "Some people know too little about too much". I'm sorry that was Patton. This is my quote, "well educated morons".

greg wirth (aka scooternyc)
Okay Greg, I've read some of your other posts. So you are an atheist zionist Republican zealot ideologue who is obviously conflicted on many levels. Here is one of your posts I found on Tusconcitizen.com:

"This is disgusting! This man doesn't understand for a moment why Pat gave his life for this country..." "This man has recinded his patriotism.Besmirched the honor of Pat Tillman. Is pathetic and living amongst the bottom feeders of society. Someone said that Cindy has a dance partner, I'm sure they must be lovers by now. How sickening! "

People, Greg (aka scooternyc) was talking about Pat Tillman's brother, Kevin Tillman, who also served in the Army and wrote a scathing rebuke of the Army's actions to cover up the friendly fire incident that killed Pat.

Greg, you are one sick being. You even dishonor your prestigious alma mater, Western International University. Sally would be in tears.

Ugh.

lilly

as a past member of a neighborhood association, there were many times that the only persons present at the meeting were just enough for a quorum.

IF that was the case, and we are all engaging in supposition, then permission could have been legally given. just like for a carnival or a neighborhood picnic/block party.

Perhaps some of these neighborhoods would be more comfortable with sharia law.

Packrat
No, excuse me, you are wrong. I am not a lawyer but for thirty years I have lived in communities subject to state condominium law, always involved in actions of the homeowners' association and attentive to our legal consultants. Whether fifty members attend an open meeting or no members do, Board of Director members must ALL vote on such a matter, in this case the use of Association facilities by an outside party. Such an item is not subject to membership vote. However, minutes of the meeting must reflect the vote and be available to all owners. In some communities the minutes are posted online, sometimes mailed to the owners, sometimes posted in the management office. From Hill's article we know that residents were surprised by the military presence; if it had been voted by their Board, they would have been so informed.

Sometimes a single Board member permits something on his own say-so, or for Board members to confer informally by telephone. In my state, this is absolutely illegal and, when discovered, cancels out the permission or the vote.

"Quorum" is relevant when the election of new Board members is taking place. It is not relevant to the validity of an item voted by the Board in a meeting (members don't have to be present to legitimize a Board vote).

As I said before, I don't know what condo law is in Arizona, but the situation I describe has obtained in every state where I've lived in a place subject to state condo law.


Yo Hektor!!
Is "Cranial Rectal Inversion" a different name for "Cranial Rectilitis?" Just a wonderin'
An ole Korean War Vet

The wrong question
I think the real question is do the neocons support our troops, with more than words I mean.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/055258.php

"The 2,600 members of the Minnesota National Guard recently ended a 22-month tour of duty in Iraq, the longest deployment of any ground-combat unit in the Armed Forces. Many of its members returned home, looking forward to using education benefits under the GI bill."


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2432 462.ece

Another sourse

Neocon style troops support
Friday, May 18, 2007
Bush Rejects Troops Pay Increase

http://commissionerjackson.blogspot.com/

Love = bring them home
If all of those that profess love and support for our troops really acted as you felt then you would not be for sending them to a foreign land to defend Saudi oil interests.
Saddamm shouldn't haave invaded Kuwait but then it wasn't our business to set things right either. I wouldn't send my son to die for that cause so what gives me the right to send anothers.
I've asked this before without response. How many sons of Kuwait or Saudi Arabia are dying in this conflict?

val34 Asks?
Val34 rhetorically asks: " I've asked this before without response. How many sons of Kuwait or Saudi Arabia are dying in this conflict?" Actually, quite a few. Reports I have read indicate that many of the insurgents are from Saudi Arabia. Many of these are suicide bombers. I have not seen a breakout for the Kuwaitis who might be involved in fighting against our forces. Saudi nationals were also heavily involved in the 9/11 attacks. For some reason, the immigration from this source has been expanded not curtailed by the current administration.

All of you who speak of Love
Love is for all men. Get it? I don't care if you agree with the Iraq war. We are there. It was legal. We have men and women fighting and dying for the Iraqis. Love means doing the right thing for all men (the troops and the Iraqis).

But I guess, those of you with tunnel vision don't extend any love toward anyone outside of the US.

None of you who cry 'bring the troops home' have made any attempt to look at what the aftermath of that would be. We did that once, at the 'end' of Desert Storm (Gulf War I) when Bush HWB didn't have the authorization to push on to Baghdad.

A lot of Iraqis died then at the hands of Muslim extremists (Saddam was but one of them).

None of you look at what will be the result of what Colin Powell refered to as the pottery barn principle. We broke it...we bought it.

I guess it is okay with you 'bring-em-home types to leave a mess, let the Iranians become a super-state, and further destabalize the ME. Good plan, that.

And, of course, you have the moral high ground because you "love" the troops.

There is no moral high ground to that. It's just one of those things you throw out to make you feel better and pretend that you really give a sh!t.

It's all about the appearance of caring. Well, the guys/gals over in Iraq and Afghanistan are there, putting their lives on the line, and making a difference in the lives of people. But, of course, those people don't count because they aren't us. That is really sick, and sad.

Val question response
Val,
First I am in Iraq. Second tour here. Also spent six months in Kuwait in 94. I had a Saudi Officer at my house for dinner in 96 when we were both at Ft Gordon. Also had a Moslem from Malaysia and an Officer from El Savador at same dinner. I say that only to establish credentials on the point of view I have.

During the Kuwait conflict, Saudi and Kuwait forces fought along side of us. I do not know how many died but I assure you they were with us. Since the Kuwait military was not a force at the time we were there because they had been wipped out and many of them had died they supported the Saudi Forces. They took good care of us in Kuwait during the time between the wars and aloud us to maintain bases in Kuwait. The six months I was in Kuwait in 94, the Kuwaiti big wigs threw parties for us at their residences and treated us great when we were in town off duty. The UAE had troops in Kosovo and I think but am not sure Saudi did also. Kuwait military is now giving us support in this conflict.

I do not believe that we are defending Saudi Oil intrests. You do, but you have no proof of that statement.

Love of us does not equal bring us home. My wife and son wish I was with them and I would rather be home and be fishing but I have a job to do and they support me and my fellows in doing it.

For my views on why we need to be here see my blog or as always I can be emailed at tinsldr2@yahoo.com but put townhall in the subject column.

Tinsldr2
God bless you for your service!!!

bountyhunter 20
Thanks, it is a shame that some couch their "support for the troops" when what they really mean is support for the policy. Our armed forces or for better or worse simply the instrument for the policy. If the policy is bad then the conflict is. It has NOTHING to do with supporting our fighting men or not. They don't get to vote where they are sent and thank God they are willing to their duty no matter what.
But this doesn't change the fact that this was a fool's errand from the beggining and that tha American people were sold a bill of goods from '91 on. As to the argument that "we broke it we own it" it seems that we did MORE than we had to in overthrowing Saddamm and that the rest can rest with the participants.
Peace in the Middle East is not only not a vital interest of the U.S. but may unfortunitely be just the opposite! Saddamm was a powerful hedge against our enemies, and against our friends! GREAT! Because in the end there are no friends of the infidel there and any pipe dreams that there are will just in the end get more of our sons killed. BRING THEM HOME.

To JD's Son
Re your plan to conduct live fire exercises in Democratic neighborhoods and bayonet males of military age: Apparently you agree with Dave Stone, who on September 17 at 11:34 posted a suggestion that "All registered Democracts and all elected Democrat office holders be dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night and secured behind barbed wire fences...Military tribunals should be held to identify enemies of the people and any confirmed immediately shot...".

Both of you seem to have a problem with the United States being a two-party nation since you strategize to kill your political opponents just because they are your opponents. Sounds kind of like the Sunni and the Shia, don't you think?

Support the Mission
.

Soldiers on the grass, alas
Most civilians hate the military, especially civilians with no history of service. It was even true in England years ago. Recall Kipling's, "Oh, It's Tommy (Tommy Atkins, their GI Joe) this and Tommy that and it's Tommy go away; but it's 'Thank you Mr. Atkins when the band begins to play.'"

That "band" would have been playing war.

When 2,600 civilians died on 9/11, citizens ponied up enough to give two mil a share for Jersey girls and the other grieving families. A princely sum but could not it have been split with families of soldiers and marines killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? No, hardly. After all, they enlisted to go in harm's way, did they not?

But would they have so blithely enlisted had they been told their mission was to make Arabs understand and practice democracy? Or would they have said, "Let's turn tigers into vegetarians?"

Civilian hatred for the military is profound and generational. When designers of the WWII Memorial on the Mall asked for community input on the proposal, C-Span televised the forum, and I watched in disbelief as a Ms. Shapiro rose to object, saying it would spoil her vista.

"Besides," she went on, "what will they put in the building? Probably a bunch of tchotchkes!"
Her sweet voice still echoes in my mind.

One had the feeling she would not have objected to yet another Holocaust Memorial.

Before anyone gets the vapors over my unfeeling remark, may I add that I was in the 8th and 9th Air Forces and, while with the latter, ended WWII at Furstenfeldbruck airbase (outside Munich), visited Dachau days after it was liberated, then saw Buchenwald a month later.

My sympathies lay (then and now) with Americans I saw die than the poor souls in those camps, most of whom died of disease -- typhus, in particular -- no matter they were civilians.

But I don't hate civilians. I'm one myself now.

guinan24
I cannot imagine going to Dachau shortly after the liberation. I visited the site when we were in Germany a few years ago. I don't know, maybe it was just my imagination, but it still smelled like death there to me.

Thank you for your service.

tinsldr2
Well sure they fought along side us while we were soving there THEIR bacon! And they n fact may give us tactical support now. How could they not. But you see when it doesn't directly help them then they go take a powder. Same for the Saudis. You can't profess your faith while on their HOLY soil but you can defend them from their Arab brothers! Sorry not me or mine!
I can appreciate the outlook of the professional soldiers such as yourself and I more than see your life as a gift to your country but on the other hand I think you need to step back and see the larger picture although either way your duty is just that, your duty right or wrong. Thank you soldier.

support our troops:
http://www.weststyle.com/conservative/support_troops/

mrsPaddy
Just exactly what is the mission?

Another site
check out Grouchymedia.com

to loss of freedom
Marines' Dad writes: Sunday, October, 21, 2007 12:22 PM

"As for the troops "scaring our kids," The only circumstance in which I can imagine that troops drilling would scare children is if the parents of those children were telling them that the military is bad or evil. In my experience, most kids, especially boys, react like Mr. Hills son did upon seeing the troops drilling, fascinated.

My 6 year old grandson knows that his uncle is in the Marine Corps(and what he's doing) and he absolutely adores his uncle.
But he also knows why Jeff is gone(and the possibility that he might not come back alive),:"
******

So many, too many, of the comments in this thread are plainly stupid Bush-haters.

I am 76; thus I have been through several periods of war. When Pearl was attacked I was 10!

That's when we feared the soldiers, but not the American soldiers - the Nazi and Japanese soldiers.

So for all you enlightened haters, just think what this country would be if America had not seen the true danger then!

I was in the military during the Korean War; we had the same doom and gloom idiots screaming at Truman. We MUST bring the troops home!

One of my friends while in the service was a native Norwegian who lived through the German occupation; he was afraid of the soldiers; the German soldiers.

Marine Dad:

I support your position; not because we are war mongers, but because we learned from EXPERIENCE! If those who are so afraid of the American army ever get into the hands of the terrorist; then they can cry about their CIVIL LIBERTIES being taken away.

And, if the "haters and Ronaways" knew anything about history they must have gotten it from a comic book.

Finally, Lincoln once said that he did NOT read all the hateful articles written about him; he couldn’t change the course of history and reading them was fruitless.

To Marine Dad
Marines' Dad writes: Sunday, October, 21, 2007 12:22 PM


As for the troops "scaring our kids," The only circumstance in which I can imagine that troops drilling would scare children is if the parents of those children were telling them that the military is bad or evil. In my experience, most kids, especially boys, react like Mr. Hills son did upon seeing the troops drilling, fascinated.

My 6 year old grandson knows that his uncle is in the Marine Corps(and what he's doing) and he absolutely adores his uncle.
But he also knows why Jeff is gone(and the possibility that he might not come back alive),"
******

So many, too many of the comments in this thread are plainly stupid Bush-haters.

I am 76; thus I have been through several periods of war. When Pearl was attacked I was 10!

That's when we feared the soldiers, but not the American soldiers - the Nazi and Japanese soldiers.

So for all you enlightened haters, just think what this country would be if America had not seen the true danger.

I was in the military during the Korean War; we had the same doom and gloom idiots screaming at Truman. We MUST bring the troops home!

One of my friends while in the service was a native Norwegian who lived through the German occupation; he was afraid of the soldiers; the GERMAN soldiers.

Marine Dad:

I support your position; not because we are war mongers, but because we learned from EXPERIENCE! If those who are so afraid of the American army ever get into the hands of the terrorist; then they can cry about their CIVIL LIBERTIES being taken away.

And, if the "haters and Ronaways" knew anything about history they must have gotten it from a comic book.

Finally, Lincoln once said that he did NOT read all the hateful articles written about him; he couldn’t change the course of history and reading them was fruitless.

OOPS
What is the problem with this site???

These were the original goals (mission)
March 21, 2003 – Defense of the American people is primary among the goals and objectives of U.S. actions in Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said during a Pentagon press conference today.
Further goals are to eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and to liberate the Iraqi people.

To achieve these aims, the military coalition is focused of specific goals.

Rumsfeld said the first is to end the regime of Saddam Hussein "by striking with force on a scope and scale that makes clear to Iraqis that he and his regime are finished."

The coalition will identify, isolate and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. It will also eliminate Iraq's missiles and other delivery systems, the production capabilities and distribution networks, he said.

Coalition military forces will search for, capture or drive out terrorists who have found refuge in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

The coalition will also collect intelligence related to terrorist networks in Iraq and beyond and will collect intelligence on the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction activity. It will end sanctions and immediately deliver humanitarian relief to the displaced and the many needy Iraqi citizens.

The coalition will secure oil fields and resources, "which belong to the Iraqi people and which they will need to develop their country after decades of neglect," Rumsfeld said.

Finally, the coalition will create the conditions for Iraq's rapid transition to a representative government "that is not a threat to its neighbors." The coalition is committed to ensuring the territorial integrity of Iraq.

Still have part of the mission
left to complete. Don't care if you don't agree with it. The mission is still in progress.

To JD's Son
Dear man, you wrote a post advocating the murder of Democrats. It was pretty specific. It was you, not I, who called for killing your fellow Americans. I would say that your doing so is fairly "harsh, hateful, mean-spirited, and insensitive", to borrow your words. I have to believe that this last post is your attempt at humor.

It depends
I guess it depends what they were training for. The protectors of freedom can just as easily be agents of government tyranny which is why the founders opposed the creation of a standing army. Last thing the US needs is its own version of the Kempeitai.


The past
Tenore2:

The idiots won, because in many ways like Iraq, Korea had become a stalemate by mid-1951. A short review: DPRK invades the ROK, the forces of the UN led by the US responds and crossed the 38th (which was not in the UN mandate) and as the UN forces came close to the Ya Lu Jiang, the PRC entered the war throwing the US-led forces back behind the 38th. The US-led forces were able to advance back toward the 38th by early-mid 1951 where the lines stayed pretty much until the end of the war. Truman didn't seek re-election in 1952 because of public opposition to the war and Eisenhower was elected because he promised to end it--which he did.

And the US didn't see the danger at all. Japan gained Taiwan in 1895, defeated Russia in 1905, occupied Korea in 1910, invaded northern China in 1931 (creating the puppet state of Manchukuo) and was in full scale war in China after the Marko Polo Bridge (lu gou qiao) incident in 1937.

The US didn't move to do anything against Japan until it moved into French Indo-China. The story is similar in regards to the Nazis. If the US had seen the danger, 12-7 wouldn't have happened.

I wish they'd just change it
Mrs. Paddy:

With all due respect, it has to be one of the worst national anthems on the planet. Music stolen from an English drinking song and so badly composed as to be almost unsingable and when it is it pains the ear.

There are a number of great American patriotic songs--this isn't one of them.


soldiers in the park
As the mother of three sons serving their country, and a daughter who plans on enlisting upon graduation, it seems odd to me that anyone would complain about these soldiers training in their precious park on a weekend. In my opinion, every single person in that neighborhood should have grabbed their children and come out to the park, applauding these brave, unselfish, men and women. They should have shouted their support and waved flags proudly. Their children should see what a dedicated, proud American looks like - one who actually chooses to volunteer to protect this country so that these people can have their nice neighborhood and nice park. If my boys were not serving to protect this country, it would be only a matter of time before that war reaches our shore and our neighborhoods. One of my sons who served in Iraq as a helicopter pilot and went through more hell than any 24-year-old should have to in a lifetime let alone in 24 years, told me he would much rather keep this war over there because if we don't, it won't be long until those who have one goal in life - to die as a martyr - will be on our land. So whenever you see a soldier, stop and thank him/her. Tell them you are thinking of them and praying for them. Tell them how grateful you are for their unselfishness - that they are willing to do this job so your children don't have to fear a draft. Tell them they are appreciated. Remember they are on call 24/7. This is not a video game and if you have the opportunity to show your children what real soldiers are like and let them see a little bit of what they do, you should be grateful to show them the best role models they will ever have.

Some people will just amaze you
My son is a Marine in Iraq. We have a service flag in the window, the Marine banner on the flag pole and a yellow ribbon girding the tree in the front yard. Neighbors have asked when he was coming home and offered their prayers and support. Then there was the Homeowners Association rep (Ho-Asses, we call them) who asked me if I had filed a request to display the ribbon and how long it was going to be there as it "didn't constitute a sanctioned alteration to the landscaping." I seriously hope she takes my request back to the board regarding what they can do with themselves in addition to the horse they rode in on.

Mrs Paddy
The goals you stated were all irrelivant or non-existant and the Bush administration knew it at the time.

val34
Great come-back. I'm sure gonna take that to the bank. If you don't want to accept that there were stated goals, and that those goals have not yet been completed, that's okay. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Sorry if I am repeating others
I don't have time to read the other posts. I am
off to work. But there is something weird with
your story. I am not exactly questioning its
authenticity but...

Why would troops go through a neighborhood to
train? Don't they have their own area? Why
would they do their hup, hup, hup in a neighborhood before dawn. Most people are sleeping then.

Maybe some of the naysayers wondered if they were
authentic? You can buy an army lookalike uniform
anywhere.

And thanks for once again suggesting that the
vast majority of liberals are not patriotic. Right.
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