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Wednesday, August 27, 2008
Austin Bay :: Townhall.com Columnist
Tsar Wars Versus Star Wars
by Austin Bay
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As the Russo-Georgian War's August gunfire slips into a murky September ceasefire, the Pentagon reports that the Russians "are still not living up to the terms of the ceasefire agreement."

So, what does Russia want?

The question intentionally echoes, "So what did Stalin want?" -- which historian John Lewis Gaddis asked then answered in his award-winning book "The Cold War: A New History." Gaddis argued Joseph Stalin wanted "security for himself, his regime, his country and his ideology, in precisely that order."

These goals would also resonate in an "Old History" of Russia -- call it Tsar Wars, with Ivan the Terrible as the featured personality.

Personalizing Russia 2008 as Vladimir Putin strikes me as a stretch. Putin runs an oligarchy, not a totalitarian dictatorship, but Putin is clearly at the nucleus of the oligarchy, with ex-KGB pals, friendly billionaires and useful mafiya in close orbits. But dub the pals and billionaires "new royalty," and Putin might be an emerging "pop Tsar" -- a savvy 21st century autocrat leveraging Russian nationalist demands. Orchestrating a domestically popular military ventures fits this frame.

Gaddis titled the first chapter of his new history "The Return of Fear." Ivan the Terrible and Stalin subscribed to Machiavelli's advice in "The Prince": It "is much safer to be feared than loved." The Russo-Georgia War does not revive the Cold War. However, reviving fear is most certainly a Russian aim.

NATO and the European Union didn't quail when Russia insisted that Kosovo's unilateral independence was a "redline issue" for the Kremlin. Georgia President Mikheil Saakashvili certainly didn't fear Russian power when troubles began in early August -- violent troubles in South Ossetia that may have been a Russian trap.

The Kremlin says toppling Saakashvili is a goal. For now, Saakashvili remains in power, and he has secured a global reputation for pugnacity. Russian troops, however, remain in Georgian ports -- thus pugnacity remains in peril.

Over time, fear can erode. In August 1968, 40 years ago, Russian tanks rolled into Czechoslovakia to crush Alexander Dubcek's "Prague Spring" democratic movement. The Soviet empire chained Eastern Europeans for another 21 years -- a generation. A generation of frightened Georgians may serve Russia's interests.

Fear, however, can stiffen opposition. Ukraine, for example, has harshly criticized Russia's invasion and publicly supported Georgia. Poland's decision to deploy American ground-based interceptor (GBI) anti-ballistic missiles has been in the works for years. The GBIs are designed to thwart a "shot from the ayatollah direction" (e.g., Iran), not Russia. But after the Russian offensive, Poland also received Patriot PAC-3 missiles, which can counter shorter-range Russian missile systems. Tsar Wars met Star Wars, and at least in Poland and in the near term, Star Wars won, despite a Russian threat to attack Poland with nuclear weapons.

As for politically discrediting the European Union and NATO, Moscow may have had some success. "Fractured" describes the EU's political response to the Russian offensive. Core EU countries -- meaning those in Western Europe who rely on Russian oil and gas -- are once again reluctant defenders of democracy.

Kremlin recognition on Aug. 26 of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states certainly damns nine years of EU and NATO diplomacy regarding Kosovo. In a column two weeks ago, I suggested Moscow would "invoke its interpretation of The Kosovo Precedent," and Moscow has done it.

Russians argue that Kosovo's spring 2008 unilateral declaration of independence from Serbia gives separatism resulting from invasion to protect an ethnic minority a political imprimatur. If protecting Kosovar Albanians elicits a NATO attack, in South Ossetia and other regions on Russia's border, Russia's "version of Kosovo" holds sway.

That may not be everything Russia wants -- but at the moment it is a diplomatic point Russia has made with bullets.

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About The Author

Austin Bay Austin Bay is author of three novels. His third novel, The Wrong Side of Brightness, was published by Putnam/Jove in June 2003. He has also co-authored four non-fiction books, to include A Quick and Dirty Guide to War: Third Edition (with James Dunnigan, Morrow, 1996).
 
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Russia started this
"Virtually everyone is wrong. Georgia didn't start it on August 7, nor on any other date. The South Ossetian militia started it on August 6 when its fighters fired on Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian villages with weapons banned by the agreement hammered out between the two sides in 1994. At the same time, the Russian military sent its invasion force bearing down on Georgia from the north side of the Caucasus Mountains on the Russian side of the border through the Roki tunnel and into Georgia. This happened before Saakashvili sent additional troops to South Ossetia and allegedly started the war."

Read the rest of the story here:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-abo ut-1.php

Virtually everyone, Lestat?
If, 'virtually everyone' is wrong why do you not point out the way or ways in which lil'ol Georgia is wrong?
Rob.

The tunnel
...is the only way of the russkies into Georgia, NATO and surely the georgians knew the russians had amassed a large army north of the border; how many tanks would have been needed to defend the damn thing, two, three? How hard would have been to blow up the tunnel?

The behavior of the georgians in permitting the most stoppable invasion in modern times to take place is bizarre.

As for the SDI (ok, GBI)rockets being set up in Poland, how difficult is it to "guess" that they are being installed quietly elsewhere and that the russians are worried that some fine day they will be told by an american president, Check mate. All their nukes worthless.

Is it possible that they are biting back as a cornered rat would? All that angry russian bear propaganda is par of MSM's Let's Surrender Now line theyve been singing for seemingly forever. So is the new russian prosperity crap. The average russian lives in abject poverty and would give all they have to get out of there.



Meddlesome America
Why should we care about "who started" the Russia X Georgia conflict?
It's really none of our business, as Kosovo wasn't either.
The placing of missiles in Poland is yet another stupid mistake, do we go to all-out war with Russia if they decide to bomb our missile installations in Poland ?
What if Hugo Chavez, close buddies with Russia and Iran, decides to invita the Russians to place their missiles in Venezuela ?
"Same difference"...see?

We need to have grown-ups in charge.
I don't think it is fair to say Russians are lining up to leave.

In fact, reports in the newspapers suggest Putin's decision on Georgia was very popular not only with Russians, but with south Ossetians.

I suspect Putin is far more popular in Russia than Bush is in America.

I do agree that Russia's brutal reaction, although hardly unprovoked, did result in more support among former Soviet states for the installation of U.S. missile batteries...and that has to be viewed by Russian leadership as a negative consequence.

I can only hope that for a change we have adults in charge of American foreign policy, recognizing that Russia is probably going to remain a somewhat authoritarian regime who means to have influence with its immediate neighbors, yet also understanding the utter stupidity of needlessly alienating Russia when there are so many critical issues we need to be working them them on.

Egon, Russia can play hardball not only by installing missiles in Venezuela and Cuba, but also in prohibiting its territory, and central Caucasus territories, from being used to equip and stock NATO forces in Afghanistan(U.S. forces get their supplies via Pakistan, I believe).

Russia can cut off supplies of natural gas and oil to its neighbors and to Europe.

Additionally, the Russians could send even more advanced anti-aircraft missiles to Iran, Syria, as well as forming a military alliance with China dedicated to defeating us, as well as providing even more scientific expertise to Iran's nuclear program.

Do we really want to go down this road?

I agree with you we need to reject this neocon insanity of seeing how many enemies in the world we can make.

Tim
Agreed.

There is this grotesque, arrogant, meddlesome mindset among many neocons that presumes it has the right to embroil our nation in messianic adventurism abroad(spreading democracy), even it results in jeoparding and sacrificing the lives of our military on matters having nothing to do with our national security.

This is not conservatism at all.

It is liberal humanitarianism combined with brute force.

Lestat
I read this last night


http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-abo ut-1.php

Looked as sincere as anything else I have read, so I gave it a plus for Georgia.

On the other hand I have read reports by Ossetians that tell a different story of what occured.

There has been fighting between Georgian troops and S.O. irregulars for some time now, yet all of this fighting is occuring with-in South Ossetia as far as I can tell.

What is wrong with allowing the South Ossetians self determination?
Why not remove both Georgia and Russia out of the picture and give the right for their own course to the people who actually live there?

Like one of the Russian Generals is reported to have said.
"the military fight is over, now the propaganda wars follow"

No matter how sincere the report you read above appears, and it does appear to be sincere, there are just as many like it on the other side of this issue.


NWO v Old World Order
Kosovo, it was the birthplace of the Serbian nation back in 1389.

And there will never be any order if the Laws of International bodies are applied differently from one nation to another.

What Law gave the President a right to recognize Kosovo as an independent State and taking it away from its ancient historical founding of the Serbian Nation and cannot now be applied to South Ossetia and Abkhazia?


What sort of order is this?
The one a US President rules over like King Tut?

Then find fault with the people who are not going to bow down to this New World Order that is directed from Washington DC by a select group of men who have anointed themselves as neo-conservatives and the rulers over the entire world.

I want to know when America got the right to elect the leader of the world as if he is the king of the world to force the world into his New World Order?

Some of us right here in America are going to fight anyone who wants a NWO too, even if it makes some very strange bedfellows and alliances to fight these arrogant idiots.

What International Law
Was applied in granting Kosovo Independence that cannot be applied to South Ossetia?
To Abkhazia?

To have any sort of mutual co-operation from the nations of the world the same principles of law must be equal.

I have been looking for some law the International Community has agreed upon and all Nations Ratified agreeing in principle the United States of America has the right to take Kosovo away from the Serbian people and give it to the Albanians who had moved there.

With this principle, the American Southwest is soon to be Mexico, and this is NOT HYPE.
Same thing is happening here, foreign citizens are moving into America and allowed to work and make claims California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and Southern Colorado (my home) as belonging to Mexico, and I am not kidding.

Then by what International Principle of Law gives the President the right to force the Jews to give up land to the Arabs and create a new State, giving them 23 States.(I believe this is right)

If there is such a principle in International Law that gives the President this power, why is it not applicable to South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

Dividing Jerusalem?
Who does this man GW Bush think he is?

By Aaron Klein
© 2008 WorldNetDaily


Condoleezza Rice

JERUSALEM – Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, completing a visit to the region today, has been pressing Israel to sign a document by the end of the year that would divide Jerusalem by offering the Palestinians a state in Israel's capital city as well as in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, according to top diplomatic sources involved in the talks.

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73428

Zechariah 2
4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:

5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her

8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

GW Bush is going to get to know the Lord in a way he has never known, if he thinks he is going to get by with this policy.


Territorial integrity of Russia
A little of geography realities.

Are we going not to recognize territorial integrity of Russia ? Do we, americans, have a foreign policy, based on expectation that Russia will soon loose large chunks of its land, e.g. to China ?

Otherwise all the attempts to consider a nuclear power (Russia) with
***the largest territory in the world***
as second rank country, be it evil or benevolent, are doomed to failure. (I actually think it is evil towards USA and Georgia, but that is not the point.) By georgaphy, for better or for worse, Georgia is doomed (or blesssed) to be the neighbor of Russia, and not of the USA.

Oh
Tim writes:- 1:07 PM EST
Subject: talent scout
The United States does not make Foreign Policy based on the particular Biblical Interpretations of certain people.
===
ts:
Darn, my bad
==
Tim writes:
That's as bad as appeasing the Neoconservative Agenda ,in Georgia.
===
ts:
Then I guess its my bad side coming out, in your eyes, thats fine.

Tell you something about Jerusalem though, believe it or do not believe, liek it do not like it, God decides the Policy of Jerusalem.
Watch

George and Condi do not make policy
For Jerusalem.

Shows something about how arrogant they have become though, thinking they do.

I do not care who believes the bible, like it or not God has His own policies and George is not a decider for any of it.


No it doesn't
Tim writes: talent scout
That depends on who's doing the interpretation,of who , are The Real Chosen People.The Christians ,who went and now go with Jesus or The Jews,who rejected Jesus.
===
ts:
Like I already said
Believe it or do not believe it.
Meaning I am not trying to tell you what to believe, I simply say watch.
God sets the Policy of Jerusalem.

GW Bush does not and will not, watch and see.
Does not matter who interprets what.
The Judgment is made and that is clear, God said He is in charge.
I do not see Him moving over for GW Bush and Condi Rice.
Now, I know you are going to tell me blah blah blah, ok. Go for it.
Yet it means nothing anyway what you come to preach to me.
I am not telling you to accept this or not, I really do not care if you do, or don't.
Seriously.
===


Tim writes:
The United States doesn't make Foreign Policy based on individuals' interpretation of The Bible.
=='ts:
What are you mumbling on and on about something as dumb as this anyway?

I never said anything of the sort for such a stupid admonition.

Its stupido, ok.
I said what I said, watch.
If you do not want to watch, ok with me too.
So shut up with this stupid comments, ok?

Blow it out your barracks bag
Tim my boy, blah blah blah and shut up

Poor baby
Did not like me mentioning the bible.
I do not care what you like little boy.

Shut up Timmy

Getting funny now
Ok Tim
Have it your way and cry waaaaaaaaaaa, waaaaaaa all you like.
Its ok, you will be doing better tomorrow.

Tim: Whoa, I saw that one coming...

ts gets wound up and then get's ballistic.

Be careful, he'll soon be demanding an apology from you... HA HA HA


You're dealing with a nutcase who claims to have had some connection with the KGB... :-)


Much to ts's displeasure, I've been

saying... based on sources overseas, that S. Ossetia was an EXCUSE for Russia to invade and send a message to, not only Georgia, but all the former Soviet states, NOT to get enamored with western democracy, and do NOT get to friendly with the West.

Watch for Poland or the Ukraine to be next!


IF PUSH COMES TO SHOVE
I would hope Reagan's dream of star wars was actually accomplished and held in classification all these years to be used incase of nuclear strike attempt.

Tim: Naw... I polished him off a few

days ago.. a few times! :-)

Problem is, he doesn't know when he's been put in his place.. He just keeps coming back.. and baaaack..... and baaaaaaack! Ugh!

And, when he goes ballistic, he tells posters to "shut up!"


Ironic thing, he claims to be a Christian, yet he is so rude and down right nasty. Gives Christians a bad name! :-(



Tim, no talent and the "neocon" haters
A REAL Reagan Conservative is not a Flat(ulent)Earth Isolationist. A Real REagan Conservative recognizes threats to Liberty and meets them head on like Reagan Met the Evil Empire.
Isolationism hasn't been a viable foreign policy since Lucy Lindy landed in Paris.
You lie if you say Real Conservatives are Isolationist. Reagan was not.
Carping about Foreign Wars and Interventionism and "Neo-Cons" (what the hell IS a "neo-con" anyway other than a cant word for Jew hating conspiracy theory tin-foil beanieists?) doesn't advance a cogent argument in any way.
M.L.King and Lincoln were right. This world cannot long endure half slave and half free. A threat to Liberty ANYWHERE is a threat to it EVERYWHERE AND TO MINE!! I WANT Democracies being imposed, planted, nurished and defended EVERYWHERE and I want everyone and anyone who tries to phook with them blown to hell! Be they Sandnazis or Russian Nazis. Kill them all, kill them now, kill them on their own front porch in front of their wives, kids, and dogs.

The only cogent point here is that Kosovo is no different from South Ossetia. My position is that it is "the right of the people to alter or abolish" their form of Government at will, and to the degree the PEOPLE of South Ossetia want to tell Georgia effYou, I'm all for them doing so. As I would be in favor of the Kurds telling that to Turkey or Irag, or Virginia telling the Fed Government, or the Women of Iran telling the Ragheads to stuff it.
To the degree the Russkies are pulling a Hitler con job, I want their little Red heads blown off.
The Big Mick

Truth comes out, Georgia started this
Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

Published: August 21 2008 19:21 | Last updated: August 21 2008 19:21

Georgia did not believe Russia would respond to its offensive in South Ossetia and was completely unprepared for the counter-attack, the deputy defence minister has admitted.

Batu Kutelia told the Financial Times that Georgia had made the decision to seize the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali despite the fact that its forces did not have enough anti-tank and air defences to protect themselves against the possibility of serious resistance.



Wreckage of a Georgian tank in Tskhinvali, South Ossetia, last week. Substantial foreign aid will be needed to rebuild the country’s defensive capability, according to Batu Kutelia

EDITOR’S CHOICE
Saakashvili interview transcript - Aug-24Saakashvili blames crisis on Russia - Aug-24US ready to put Russia nuclear deal on ice - Aug-24West presses Moscow on withdrawal - Aug-24Analysis: Russia’s reversal - Aug-22Russia claims it has met pull-out terms - Aug-22“Unfortunately, we attached a low priority to this,” he said, sitting at a desk with the flags of Georgia and Nato (to which Georgia does not belong) crossed behind him. “We did not prepare for this kind of eventuality.”

The Georgian military felt there was only a low probability of a massive Russian counter-attack, despite the bloody way in which Russia destroyed Chechnya, on the other side of the Caucasus mountains, in two wars during the 1990s and the fact that separatists in South Ossetia and Abkhazia had Russian backing.

Georgian forces were unprepared when the Russian counter-strike came, Mr Kutelia said. “I didn’t think it likely that a member of the UN Security Council and the OSCE would react like this,” Mr Kutelia said.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0d8beefe-6fad-11dd-986f-0000779fd 18c,dwp_uuid=66e078d0-66ca-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html?ncli ck_check=1

I told ya Saakashvilli was stupid
Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

Published: August 21 2008 19:21

Georgia did not believe Russia would respond to its offensive in South Ossetia and was completely unprepared for the counter-attack, the deputy defence minister has admitted.
====
ts:
What a moron Saakashvilli is, everyone should know the Russians are dangereous people to mess with.

We have another moron intent in starting WW III in the White House too from the appearance of things

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