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Wednesday, November 28, 2007
Austin Bay :: Townhall.com Columnist
Al-Qaida's Emerging Defeat
by Austin Bay
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


The postwar relationship between Iraq and the United States is now a broader public topic. This week, the White House and the Iraqi government announced that state-to-state discussions are taking place with the goal of reaching detailed agreements that will govern Iraq and America's long-term political, economic and military ties. Iraqis have asked for "an enduring relationship with America."

I use the term "broader public topic" because this matter has been a subject of constant discussion since April 2003, with little of that discussion hush-hush.

When I reported in May 2004 for duty in Iraq, the first document dropped on my desk was a draft of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1546. After reading it with great interest, I discussed it with one of the very smart young majors in the Multi-National Corps-Iraq plans section. The very smart young major was already in the polymathic process of analyzing requirements and aligning "capabilities with tasks" (who will do what) in order to support the resolutions stipulation that Iraq hold "direct democratic elections ... in no case later than 31 January 2005."

Resolution 1546 was officially passed on June 8, 2004. If you're a wire-service editor, eight months is an eon -- but if you're trying to politically reinvent Mesopotamia, it's a millisecond. The January 2005 Iraqi election succeeded, giving terrorists and tyrants a disturbing "purple finger" -- the very public ink stains marking the fingers of Iraqi voters.

That election was an incremental success, but one of many. This week's publicized call for a more "normalized" U.S.-Iraq relationship is another indication that the incremental successes are accumulating. Every increment can become a decrement, but war is a dynamic process -- and from a historical perspective the dynamic direction in Iraq has favored the United States -- in other words, the big trend suggests an emerging success.

I know, that runs counter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's April 2007 declaration that the United States "lost" in Iraq, but it was Reid's choice to make himself a sad historical footnote.

This emerging success required lots of money and unfortunately involved lots of blood. I had another document on my Baghdad desk, Musab al-Zarqawi's February 2004 letter to al-Qaida's leaders, in which he lamented al-Qaida's looming defeat.

He also described his counter-strategy: a Shia-Sunni sectarian war. That's war's hideous dynamic, effort met by effort -- with death, pain and suffering in each terrible collision. Zarqawi's murderers did their best to incite a sectarian debacle. Oh, they got headlines, they enlisted a motley array of criminal allies, they set Iraq's democratic timetable back 12 to 24 months -- but they failed.

The evidence that al-Qaida has suffered a major strategic information defeat in Iraq continues to mount. StrategyPage.com noted on Oct. 27, 2005, that "the Moslem media is less and less willing to be an apologist for al-Qaida, at least when it comes to killing Moslem civilians" and that the Iraqi media in particular "really has it in for al-Qaida." On Oct. 1, 2006, StrategyPage.com argued that "dead Iraqis were killing al-Qaida. ... Westerners, unless they observe Arab media closely, and have contacts inside the Arab world, will not have noted this sharp drop in al-Qaida's fortunes."

Within the last three months, the "trend" (made of incremental successes) has become "fact."

Is this victory in Iraq? No. But it suggests we've won a major battle with potentially global significance. What the Pentagon calls "the governmental (political participation and structure building), information (intel, media and political perception) and economic (economic development, infrastructure creation) lines of operation" will ultimately secure victory in Iraq, and these operations will take another six to eight years of effort.

As for the "security line of operation" (military), the U.S.-Iraqi "postwar relationships" discussion indicates both are preparing for "strategic overwatch," where U.S. "quick reaction" forces are positioned to help Iraq deter external (e.g., Iranian) threats. Strategic overwatch may be a couple of years away, say mid-to-late 2009. Achieving that would constitute a limited victory.

Could these positive trends reverse? Yes. Al-Qaida and Saddamist enemies will continue to test the will of Free Iraq and the United States. Harry Reid and his faction could quit and declare defeat. But I doubt that they will -- I very much doubt they will. ***

In responding to my column of Nov. 13, Tom Ricks at The Washington Post asked me to note his Oct. 15, 2007, article on al-Qaida's information warfare defeat. And a fine report it is.

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About The Author

Austin Bay Austin Bay is author of three novels. His third novel, The Wrong Side of Brightness, was published by Putnam/Jove in June 2003. He has also co-authored four non-fiction books, to include A Quick and Dirty Guide to War: Third Edition (with James Dunnigan, Morrow, 1996).
 
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©Creators Syndicate
It's an uphill battle
but I think Al-qaida is planning their version of the Tet Offensive. The timing will be such as to influence the election - or at least to try. The most important thing they could hope to accomplish is to swing enough votes to the left to change the outcome of an election. It would be a dire warning to all future presidents. So, Patraeus, stay on your toes, and keep kicking butt.

Ridiculous
In 2002, Al Qaeda payed a price many times over the one they inflicted on us.

It would have been even greater were it not for the incompentence of Rumsfeld with regard to Tora Bora.

Any real leader would have fired him within a week of that incident.

How this guy, Austin Bay, tries to make Al Qaeda look like more than it is by claiming that we haven't won yet, now at the end of 2007, is beyond absurd.

Blake
Writes: "How this guy, Austin Bay, tries to make Al Qaeda look like more than it is by claiming that we haven't won yet, now at the end of 2007, is beyond absurd."

Blake, the only absurd thing here is your sentence itself. You're as wrong to declare victory as Sen. Reid was to declare the opposite.

We're at the same stage in Iraq as were the Allies after the North African landings in WWII. In order to ensure the war effort was not overcome by euphoria, Churchill noted: "This is not the end; this is not the beginning of the end; it merely represents the end of the beginning". In other words, there is still a LOT that needs be done in Iraq to secure final victory.

But, the progress of both the American military and the Iraqi people have made over the past few months gives us indication the corner might well have been turned and we're on the proper path. What we need to to now is stay the course.

Boutte
writes: ".....in a country where you still cannot travel safely by road from the airport to the center of the capital!"

You ARE talking about Washington, D.C., are you not? How do we "secure" our own capital, you clown?

Giuliani Wants US to Promote Democracy


Rudy think we need to promote nation building?

NPR-Republican Rudy Giuliani said Monday the reputation of the United States has suffered globally not so much because of arrogant actions but for lack of salesmanship about benefits of democracy.

If he is elected president, he said, he would seek ambassadors who would work hard to sell U.S. strengths to foreigners, not just explain those distant nations to Washington.

Giuliani, who is making a late push in the first primary state, also rekindled a dispute with rival Mitt Romney, accusing the former governor of neighboring Massachusetts of presiding over a crime surge while in office.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/giuliani-wants-us- to-promote-democracy


Boutte, ApolloSpeaks
Give up, guys. The MSM has already given up on Iraq, and you should too.

Disappointingly dishonest
1."I know, that runs counter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's April 2007 declaration that the United States "lost" in Iraq, but it was Reid's choice to make himself a sad historical footnote. "

You know that the Reid quote referred to by military means alone I expected at least a hint of honesty from you Austin

2. "Iraqis have asked for "an enduring relationship with America."

With the US maintaining well over 100,000 military troops and another more than 100,000 mercenaries in Iraq, Iraqis have little choice. Let's have a vote by parliament? Oh here is parliament? Let's pull back our troops. To say the Iraqis asked is plain BS. They are an occupied country until we remove the occupying forces

Austin
By the by have you noticed that the administration is now talking with Syria (we even begged them to come to Maryland) and Iran? Wonder why we are not staying that course either?

alwyr is right!! Excellent point!

Somehow the libs just cannot put things into PERSPECTIVE!!!!


Not to be off topic, but since 3/03 when out troops liberated Iraq from Saddam, and 3500 of our troops have been killed... 26,000 innocent civilians have been killed by ILLEGAL ALIENS, right HERE ON OUT OWN AMERICAN SOIL!

Point being, lets keep this in perspective. Okay, liberals?



Geraldo is now on FOX talking about

how SAFE it is now to walk in a neighborhood in Baghdad that was, just a year ago, too dangerous to show you face...

Not only is it SAFE, it's a thriving neighborhood with shops and life is going on...



Okay, now lets hear the doom and gloom liberal take on this? I have no doubt, it's going to be a hoot.



Motley array of criminal allies
Bay writes, incisively: "Zarqawi's murderers did their best to incite a sectarian debacle. Oh, they got headlines, they enlisted a motley array of criminal allies, they set Iraq's democratic timetable back 12 to 24 months -- but they failed."

What Bay does not mention is that this "motley array of criminal allies" includes the US Press Corps.

May God have mercy on their souls.

Badly planned, eh?
This article, which puts the entire 4-year war in perspective, puts the lie to the Democrats' claim that the war was badly planned.

There has been, in fact, an intelligently-guided progression toward a consistent goal throughout the Iraqi campaign. The charge that the war was unplanned is simply and completely false.

Democrats declare the US defeated if a war lasts longer than 3 weeks (and declare the war 'needless chest-pounding if it doesn't.) I guess this has something to do with growing up watching TV, and expecting every episode to have exactly one conflict and get wrapped up neatly in 42.5 minutes (one hour minus commercial time.)

You'll have to train yourselves to resist the mind-numbing mantra from the western press, and understand the truth. Say this with me, 10 times every morning: "Iraq was not a mistake. Iraq was not a mistake. Iraq was not a mistake."

It wasn't. It was thoughtful strategy, it was never expected to take only 3 weeks, and it's working.

Anne
"Okay, now lets hear the doom and gloom liberal take on this? I have no doubt, it's going to be a hoot."

Where do we go from here? This is the Biden plan of dividing the people now where do we go and how do we get there?

More and More Al Qaida looks like it completely tricked George Bush and his folks. While the United States was sinking all its treasure into a completely mishandled invasion and occupation of Iraq, Al Qaeda was forging new alliances and securing large portions of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Al Qaeda, given a reprieve when the US effectively withdrew from Afghanistan to invade Iraq, steadily began expanding into a global operation and building a stronghold in Pakistan tribal areas. Now it is more and more clear that the Bush regime allowed the formation of a vast (over 3,000) alliance against the United States from the Indian Ocean to the Med

Who's calling whom a liar?
HalD calls Austin Bay a liar: "You know that the Reid quote referred to by military means alone..."

Hmmm... you didn't notice how Bay's article proves that the US plan was NEVER "by military means alone," Hal?

Do you suppose Sen. Reid was DELIBERATELY mischaracterizing the Administration's strategy? Hmmmm?

Austin Bay is spot on. Harry Reid is the liar. Categorize yourself, HalD.


Al Sadr's ceasefire also lowers violence
Defenders of Bush Iraq strategy point to the high percentage of foreign jihadists fighting in Iraq(Saudi, Libyan, Jordanian, etc), and further claim that these foreign fighters number in the few thousands at most(3 to 5 thousand).

But then they claim the total number of insurgents and terrorists in Iraq to be in the tens of thousands(roughly 30 to 50 thousand).

It follows that the overwhelming numbers of insurgents must be Iraqis themselves...the folks on whose behalf we are waging this war.

Shia leader al-Sadr has called for a TEMPORARY cease-fire. His following is very large, often unruly. This has not been sufficiently reported in the media. Much of the reduction in violence is due to Shia militia temporary cessation of violence, as well as to the surge and Iraqi sunnis redirecting their hostility away from our troops and toward Al Qaida's contingent in Iraq.

Al-Sadr is vehemently anti-U.S.; Al-Hakim, another Shia leader, is closely aligned with Iran. I think they have struck behind the scenes deals with the Maliki government.

I think the Shias have decided to "lay low", hoping that we will largely withdraw, at which time they will simply assert their dominance over Iraq...which is appropriate since they are the majority.

I just don't see a pluralistic society envisioned by Bush developing there...but if one is to develop, efforts at reconciliation will only be hindered by our large military presence.

Iraqis must work these matters out for themselves.

inkling_revival
I did see that which is why my comment was that he knew the Reid quote was "off" yet he took the cheap shot. That was lazy and dishonest. Do you ever mix facts with your name calling? ever?

"Do you suppose Sen. Reid was DELIBERATELY mischaracterizing the Administration's strategy? Hmmmm?"

Actually no if that were the case he wouldn't have clarified his remarks before leaving the room.

You're the liar, HalD
Harry Reid incorrectly and deliberately announced in public that the US military venture was a failure. He was deliberately mischaracterizing the US action as "military alone" which it never was. He KNEW it never was, because as Senate Majority leader, he's privy to strategic information. He's smart enough to know that calling the military action a failure in front of TV cameras will get "Iraq" and "failure" into the news without further comment.

Your attempts to whitewash this devious, vicious, false, and evil act of a Democrat Senator are hardly surprising -- it's the only thing Democrats do well -- but to pretend to yourself that you're being "honest," and that those blowing the whistle on you are "lying"...

Well, all I can say is, you're as evil as he is.

Stop calling the porcelain black, Mr. Kettle.

desu typical liberal
All catchphrases and no substance. Its ironic they come onto the internet and call people cowards. I am certain they wouldn't dare do it in person.

Hey clueless: You know I have never built a car but GUESS WHAT I can buy one! I am not a doctor but I can pay one to do medical work for me! I haven't played professional baseball but I pay those guys to play for me too.

Is your stupidity obvious yet?

Its an all volunteer force so MOVE ON. I have enrolled in Selective Service(like many others on TH) so if there is a draft I will serve.

Keep parroting the same idiotic lines though, it really makes you look smart and nuanced.

Other people doing things you couldn't ever bring yourself to do that allows you to post such utter nonsense in the first place. Guess that stings a bit huh?

Go back to DU or KOS, troll.

Oh, I DO have to see this...
Come on, MLD, post the statistics showing 14,000 MURDERS in Baghdad during a specific period in which there were 145 murders in Washington, DC. I really do want to examine your sources for that.

Wow, look at the subject change
Austin Bay writes an incisive column exposing the lie of US defeat, and the lie of an unplanned war, and the lie of an invigorated al Qaeda.

So, now we're getting a deluge of posts from the Left, filled with hate and invective ... on any subject other than what Bay wrote. "Chickenhawk." "Misquoted Harry Reid." "Dead civilians."

They'll talk about anything other than how the US' Iraq strategy is working, al Qaeda is running, 25 million people are going to prosper, and there's likely to be a model of a prosperous, free republic in the Muslim world.

Truth is to Democrats as garlic is to vampires.

Anne, what's your source?
Anne posted: "since 3/03 when out troops liberated Iraq from Saddam, and 3500 of our troops have been killed... 26,000 innocent civilians have been killed by ILLEGAL ALIENS, right HERE ON OUR OWN AMERICAN SOIL!"

Anne, do you have a source for that statistic? It seems high to me, but if it's accurate, I can use it. I'd like to check it out.

Thanks.

Jerebaub
I concur that Al=Sadr's cease fire in August has greatly contributed to the reduction in violence.

However, your characterization that Al Sadr is anti-American needs clarification.

He is anti-American occupation of Iraq.

The usual character assassination
desu bases his attempt to change the subject on the claim that conservatives are cowards.

He apparently missed the fact that the author of this particular column served in Iraq. And the fact that conservatives seem to outnumber liberals in the military by at least 2 to 1.

Not that facts actually mean anything to desu. He's one of the Servants of Hell's... ooops, the Democrat party's designated posters this morning, and it's his job to recite DNC talking points to obscure the fact that the Iraq strategy was brilliant, properly executed from the beginning, and is working.

Don't let him change the subject. Bay's piece rings true. The plan has been to win a political victory from day 1, it was never expected to succeed in just 6 months, all wars require adjustments to enemy strategy, and it's working.

Not changing the subject
The author of this piece apparently had some think-tank desk job and has written books about how war is "cool" and "romantic."

You guys frame the issue in terms of personal courage, which is what Chickenhawks always do. Neo con media is full of rhetoric amounting to an argument that those in favor of the war are personally strong, resolute, staying the course. Those opposed to the war are running away, coddling the terrorists, and appeasing nazi germany. Anyone who talks like that is using their support of the war as a statement of personal courage, and therefore needs to enlist to earn respect for his opinion.

inkling_revival
"Harry Reid incorrectly and deliberately announced in public that the US military venture was a failure. He was deliberately mischaracterizing the US action as "military alone" which it never was."

He said we cannot win by military means alone and IF we tried we would lose. That is what he said

I wager you are one of the "true believers" who thinks Rush didn't call troops against Bush's Iraq war "phony" and didn't compare a wounded soldier to a suicide bomber? Think about it while I go to a meeting.

al Sadr, merely anti-US?
Are you SURE about that, utahnotmormon?

See, reporters for the New York Times, that bastion of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy, call Mukhtada al Sadr the "the most vocal supporter of Iranian-style theocracy in Iraq," and reports that he fled Iraq "for sanctuary in Iran, which has been a major source of arms and finance for the Mahdi Army."

Seems like he might have something on his mind other than merely getting the US out of the coutry, eh, utah?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E7D81F3C F932A15754C0A9659C8B63
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/25/world/middleeast/25cnd-Ir aq.html

Taking down the lies, one by one
MLD trots out the usual lies. Ok, for the 8,362,185,493rd time:

Lie 1: "We never went to iraq to fight Al Queda"

There were at least 5 reasons listed by the Bush admin for the war in Iraq. One of them was Iraq's complicity with international terrorism.

Lie 2: "...in fact, there was no Al Queda in iraq before we invaded."

There's been a steady trickle of pre-invasion Iraqi government documents translated into English that prove definitively that Iraq was both cooperative and favorable to al Qaeda and other terrorists, and that Hussein promised not to disturb al Qaeda while training in Iraq.

Lie 3: "We never went to bring Democracy."

Among the reasons discussed, pre-2003, for deposing Hussein, was the effect that creating a free, prosperous republic on either side of Iran would have on both Iran and on the entire middle east.

Lie 4: "We never went to free the Iraqi people."

Among the reasons given for deposing Hussein was the fact that he had brutalized his own people, and used WMDs against them.

Lie 5: "We went because ... Saddam was a very dangerous man sitting atop a very dangerous pile of weapons - both of those claims false."

Finally, you get one of the reasons right. And everybody in the world agreed, including all the idiots running for President in the D primaries. The claims were true, but I'm out of space. Bye.

The list grows
Yesterday I posted the following on the Limbaugh thread.

"It's a real hoot for those of us who have always known that the US would win this war if we just didn't quit to watch idiots...try to spin victory into defeat or make some (lame) excuse for why it is some other force besides the US Military that is winning this war.

So far the ridiculous excuses/alternative explanations include that (1) so many people have left Iraq that there is no one left to kill, (2) it was the same sectarian militias that the left claimed were engaged in civil war that drove al Qaeda out of Iraq (even though, according to the left, al Qaeda was never in Iraq), (3) it's really Iran that has brokered peace between these sectarian militias, and (4)the old reliable whine that Bush didn't run a perfect war so victory isn't important, only the soldiers and civilians who died because of Bush's mistakes mean anything."

Today I see I need to add a number 5 to the list.

5. The reduction in violence is largely the result of a "temporary ceasfire" declared by sectarian terrorist leader Muqtada Al-Sadr.

The implication here is, of course, that the violence will resume in significant scale when Al-Sadr declares an end to the ceasefire. Please note that this argument makes no consideration of the possibility (or probability) that Al-Sadr has called for this ceasefire because our military will kick his @ss if he keeps fighting. Nor does it explain how a "ceasefire" can be declared unilaterally.

My apologies to jerabaub, who is not an idiot. Bear in mind that jerabaub had not made his point about Al-Sadr at the time I chose the word "idiot". My point remains that many who opposed this war and advocated withdrawal will continue to reach, grasp, and fumble to explain away (or deny) our impending success.

We are winning!!!! Yaaaaaaay!! Yippeeeee
What are we winning? Are we winning enforcing UN resolutions, by the use of our military? Are we winning the oil? Are we winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqis? Are we winning holding private mercenaries above reasonable law and then giving them a billion dollar contract to work for Homeland Security, within our own borders? Are we winning at creating the biggest most over bearing government ever known in this country? Are we winning by ruining the dollar? Are we winning the public trust? Are we winning by making the president a virtual dictator? Are we winning by letting the poppy crops become more profitable than ever in Afghanistan? Are we winning the war on drugs, when our borders are wide open? Are we winning the illegal immigration problem? Are we winning as republicans, when our front runners are Mitt and Rudy? Are we winning when foriegn muslim governments are buying our banks? Are we winning the control of our ports? Are we winning the mortgage crisis? Are we winning the deficit, when we borror billions and billions from Communist China, to fund our wars? Are we winning when we spend far more than what we have? Are we winning our liberties back, because we are more secure?

What are we winning?

attn: desu
Since you do not have a link to your email or blog on your comments, I must address you here:

Your comments have been deleted due to a violation of the TH rules.

Rule 2.) No use of foul or sexual language, no attempts to circumvent our language filters (for example, f*ck would be a violation of our moderation rules).


NIce call, wiseone
I've been re-reading Coulter's book "Treason," in which she describes the Left's silly and dishonest attempts to explain that Ronald Reagan did not win the Cold War, the Soviet Union was an empty frame ready to topple anyway. She quotes at length -- and I mean, dozens of quotations -- what liberals actually said about the Cold War DURING the Reagan administration. The lies are SO pathetic, and SO obvious.

And now another Republican president is going to win another important war -- and they're going to do the same, scam game again.

If liberals didn't absolutely control the press, TV news, and book publishing in America, and lie continually about what they've done, the public disgust for liberalism would be so deep that liberals would be as scarce as neo-Nazis.

Chris
Why not restore my comments with the offending words deleted? In addition I posted **** as this whereas you only censored one letter which is much more obscene.

Your attempts to silence me and my comments are pathetic, especially since you guys whine so much about the fairness doctrine and rail about the evil libs trying to silence you.

Chris
Why not restore my comments with the offending words deleted? In addition I posted **** as this whereas you only censored one letter which is much more obscene.

Your attempts to silence me and my comments are pathetic, especially since you guys whine so much about the fairness doctrine and rail about the evil libs trying to silence you.

Just like
Just like you guys are afraid to wear the uniform of a solider, you fake macho keyboard warriors are afraid of honest debate. You are cowards of the worst kind. That's why the Chickenhawk argument is so devastating - you know it's true. Keep repeating the things you hear every day on talk radio, brainwashed sheep.

The Limbaugh Doctrine
For JD's Handsome son

I agree. So does Rush. His over-riding advice for a Middle East foreign policy/strategy is to point out that "peace follows victory."

Wiseone = pound foolish
Talk radio = mind suck for people who need someone else to feed them their opinions. Sshhh...drink your morning coffee....feeling angry yet? What's on talk radio? Sit back and listen to your heroes on the far right tell you all about those evil traitorous libs. Turn off your mind, you won't need it, just sit back and let them keep spooning it in...

Simply beyond belief
MLD has to be a Marxist plant reciting propaganda lines. No intelligent adult could POSSIBLY believe the incredible nonsense he posted this time:

" Under Saddam, the streets of baghdad were much safer. In the USSR, street crime was almost non-existent -"

Under Saddam, more than 400,000 Iraqi citizens somehow found their way into mass graves, and there may have been many more that we don't know about. I've seen estimates as high as 8 million, though I'm not sure that figure is believable. Other, more responsible observers place the estimate at 2 million. But the 400,000 figure is solid.

In the USSR, possibly as many as 70 MILLION Soviet citizens lost their lives for disagreeing with the government, or failing to meet their quota, or trying to escape to the West, or ticking off the local Commissar, or some such.

Oh, yes, we do want to emulate those two nations in their ability to fight crime. They were such cozy, safe places to live.

Simply friggin' unbelievable...

Generic labeling
Wiseone declares:

> sectarian terrorist leader Muqtada Al-Sadr.<

The characterization of Al-Sadr as a terrorist leader is propoganda-driven as it is a hard position to defend.

It's true that the Mahdi Army has clashed repeatedly with US forces just as the Sunni insurgents in Anbar who we now call allies.
It's also true that elements of the Mahdi Army have exacted revenge killings against Sunnis who previously murdered and tortured Shiites under Saddam, including Al-Sadr's father.

However, there is no evidence that Al-Sadr has ever ordered suicide bombings aimed at civilians, or encouraged any type of terrorist campaign.

Until we learn to use the term terrorist in an informed and mature manner, the War on Terror will remain a term whose definition can be warped in order to fit any number of agendas that don't necessarily relate to terrorism.


Wiseman
Who knows why al-Sadr called for a temporary ceasefire.

Maybe he thought he had more to gain politically by doing so, or maybe he did not want to fight our troops. But given the popularity of al-Sadr among the majority Shia population in Iraq, I am not sure we should be itching for a fight against him, either.

There is no doubt that his ceasefire declaration has helped to reduce the violence, along with the surge and the change of heart of Sunnis(but some of those same Sunnis who had been killing our troops a year ago now fear a precipitous withdrawal by us would only result in the majority Shia population exacting revenge upon them).

So we have to nursemaid this society indefinitely? And at what cost to us, and for what benefit?

I have become increasingly opposed to the Bush Iraq venture because we lingered. Had we just deposed Saddam and let matters take their course, I don't see how it would have been worse than what we have sacrificed in our soldiers' deaths, their horrific, lifelong injuries, and the hundreds of billions(soon to be trillions) of U.S. taxpayer dollars devoted to this mission that could have been better spent on medical research, refurbishing our decaying infrastructure(roads, bridges, electrical grid, subway, sewer and water systems), research on alternative fuels, just to name a few.

We are like a guest who has longsince outlived his invite from the host(Yes, Shias mostly did rejoice in toppling Saddam, while many sunnis dreaded what would happen once Shias got in control).

But the Shias do not want anything like our current troop level to continue. They want us out. Maliki makes noises about some longterm U.S./Iraqi military alliance, but given his previous screwball remarks, I am not sure I would bet the farm on that horse.

Hal
still sticking up for your heroes Dingy and Murtha I see. Pathetic!!!

Max Power
MLD may have a point. When the government can put a gun to the back of your head and tell you to behave or I kill you and put your family in a gulag.

I bet people got very cooperative and law abiding.

North Korea has clean streets! Of course if you are not authorized to be on them or litter, off to jail you go were you may or may not survive.


Iraq and terrorism
MLD demonstrates his ability to sleep through five years of modern history, with "I've yet to see any definitve proof that Iraq was involved with international terrorism - you sure don't provide any."

You didn't ask for it. Sophia asked me yesterday, you could hear the crickets chirping after I provided her with more than she bargained for.

Here, try this first. Presented at Stanford University in 2004, updated in 2006: http://husseinandterror.com

Just for fun, here's a quote from an indictment filed in 1998 by the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION against bin Laden:

"Al Qaeda also forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in the Sudan and with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezballah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States. In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq." (see http://powerlineblog.com/archives/012223.php)

And you might like to check out the following, some of which include pointers to actual, translated Iraqi government documents:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031201-123723-4738r.htm
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/163648.php
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004782.htm
(original doc in arabic at http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents-docex/Iraq/CMPC -2003-001488.pdf)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/08/uttm/main552868.s html

The last in that list, by the way, reports a US FEDERAL COURT that examined the evidence and ruled that Hussein's Iraqi government was sufficiently culpable in the 9/11 ATTACK (yep) to warrant reparations for the victims out of frozen Iraqi government assets.


Bill Clinton Opposed War
Bill Clinton Flatly Asserts He Opposed War at Start

Does Bill think Hillary made a mistake with her vote for the Iraq war?

NYT-During a campaign swing for his wife, former President Bill Clinton said flatly yesterday that he opposed the war in Iraq “from the beginning” — a statement that is more absolute than his comments before the invasion in March 2003.

Before the invasion, Mr. Clinton did not precisely declare that he opposed the war. A week before military action began, however, he did say that he preferred to give weapons inspections more time and that an invasion was not necessary to topple Saddam Hussein.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/bill-clinton-flatl y-asserts-he-opposed-war-at-start




Proof from the 9/11 commission
Regarding connections between Iraq and terrorist organizations, particularly al Qaeda:

From the 9/11 commission report:



"To protect his own ties with Iraq, Turbani(The Islamist leader of Sudan) reportedly brokered an agreement that Bin Laden would stop supporting activities against Saddam. Bin Laden apparently honored his pledge, at least for a time, although he continued to aid a group of Islamist extremists operating in part of Iraq (Kurdistan outside Baghdad's control. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces. In 2001, with Bin Ladin's help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy."

-p. 61



"There is also evidence that around this time Bin Ladin sent out a number of feelers to the Iraqi regime, offering some cooperation."
-p. 66



"In March 1998, after Bin Ladin's public fatwa against the United States, two Al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin's Egyptian deputy Zawahiri who had ties of his own to the Iraqis."

-p. 66



"Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq."
-p. 66

ApolloSpeaks Ut oh
"...We are in the process of strengthening a powerful Theo-Islamic-Fascist organization that is so extreme in its ideology that it regards the mullahs as too liberal. And while this foolery is going on the mullahs are sharpening their knives and grinning from ear to ear. "

We agree. Iraq will be a loyal ally of Iran and part of an unholy anti US alliance from Pakistan to Lebanon....You have done a fine job Georgie....

Max Power
I'm always amazed when people remark how a country like Cuba, N Korea the old USSR was so much better, because they have virtually no crime and people so well behaved. Do people like MLD really think we should copy those countries methods of achieving this?

As much as our methods our not perfect. I think I would rather keep ours, THANK YOU.

Victroy/Defeat In Iraq is Irrevelant.
only brainwashed repubs/cons would put what is happening in Iraq currently as "victory or defeat". I would think that at this point 4 years down this road of non-ending bloodshed, it would be an embarrassment for the repubs/cons to be talking about "victory" over a clearly inferior opponent who long ago should have been vanquished.

"victory or defeat" in Iraq as they put it is irrevelant to the security of the U.S. as neither will do absolutely nothing to stop
a furture 9-11-01 like attack on the domestic
U.S. or make it "safer" as they are wont to say.

"fighting them over there so we dont have to fight them over here" is a empty platitude by
bushites. the cia and fbi have both testified
recently before congress that al qaida has sleeper cells, within the U.S. as we speak.

let the repubs/cons warble on about "victory in Iraq". Democrats see the situation in Iraq a massive foreign policy blunder by Prez Bush that is a problem to be corrected, by stabilizing the Iraqi government then turning responsibilities for security and fighting the insurgency over to the Iraq military and police force, which the repub/cons have zero faith in their ability to do so. After all, It is the iraqis country. if they so desire "democracy" let them fight and die for it.

clinton is a politician
he lied like all politicians lie.

here is what bush said in 2004

Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires — a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we’re talking about chasing down terrorists, we’re talking about getting a court order before we do so. It’s important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.

we now know that wasn't true, he was wiretapping through att and verizon without a court order at that very moment.


let us never forget
that during the first 4 years of this war, democrats and liberals and even John Mccain stood up and said "this is not going right and changes should be made"

many conservatives including many on this thread accused anyone critical of rumsfeld or bush of being traitors and undermining the morale of the troops.
they blamed the media and liberals for refusing to see the "good things" that were happening.

we now know that democrats and liberals and john mccain were correct.

if some conservatives had showed courage during the early years instead of knee jerk absolute unquestioning support for failed policies, there would have been less american deaths.

the hyper partisan nature of the republican party which never questioned bush and rumsfeld on their strategy and results cost brave american military members their lives.

wrapping yourself in the flag so you can't see reality is not american.

without the rest of the country standing against this irrational behavior and electing a democrat congress, rumsfeld would still be in charge.




max power
i can probably find you the article.

an employee from att who was the tech on the project said all thier lines went into a room that was hooked up by the government.

he said the every single phone and computer on the att network went into that room so essentially the government was wiretapping every single person with att as a carrier.

beyond that we now know that bush had in fact authorized wiretaps at least on foreigners without fisa approval because he admitted it.

i will try to find my source. he was on c-span a couple weeks ago testifying.

Hal unhinged
All the good news coming out of Iraq is clearly getting to Hal. He states

"We agree. Iraq will be a loyal ally of Iran and part of an unholy anti US alliance from Pakistan to Lebanon....You have done a fine job Georgie...."

Apparently Hal believes that Iraq was pro US before the invasion. Pakistan is clearly aligned with Iran as they work with us to fight the extremists. Lebanon also was apparently in our hip pocket while dominated by Syria, but now look out, they are allied with Iran against the US... Hal must be smoking the good stuff today because this is loony even for him.

max power
here is a summary of what he said.

Earlier today we flagged that Mark Klein, who uncovered a secret surveillance room run by the NSA while employed as a San Francisco-based technician for AT&T, is in Washington to lobby against granting retroactive legal immunity to telecommunications companies. In an interview this afternoon, Klein explained why he traveled all the way from San Francisco to lobby Senators about the issue: if the immunity provision passes, Americans may never know how extensive the surveillance program was -- or how deeply their privacy may have been invaded.

"The president has not presented this truthfully," said Klein, a 62-year old retiree. "He said it was about a few people making calls to the Mideast. But I know this physical equipment. It copies everything. There's no selection of anything, at all -- the splitter copies entire data streams from the internet, phone conversations, e-mail, web-browsing. Everything."

What Klein unearthed -- you can read it here -- points to a nearly unbounded surveillance program. Its very location in San Francisco suggests that the program was "massively domestic" in its focus, he said. "If they really meant what they say about only wanting international stuff, you wouldn't want it in San Francisco or Atlanta. You'd want to be closer to the border where the lines come in from the ocean so you pick up international calls. You only do it in San Francisco if you want domestic stuff. The location of this stuff contradicts their story."

here is the actual pdf on his statment .

http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/etc/kl eindoc.pdf

For jerabaub
I disagree.

If we had just deposed Saddam and left we would have left behind the same kind of power vacuum in Iraq that led to the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan and, subsequently, a terrorist haven for al Qaeda.

During our occupation of Iraq al Qaeda tried (and failed) to take advantage of the power void in Somalia. They were foiled by armies of mainland Africa.

Al-Sadr has been correctly identified by a previous poster as anti-US and pro-Iran. During a previous US military operation aimed at rooting terrorist and sectarian violence in Baghdad it go so hot for Al-Sadr he fled to Iran. I have little doubt that Al-Sadr's "ceasefire" is inspired by the knowledge that his brand of violence will no longer wash with US forces or other Iraqis, and all of this is a result of the surge.

apoplectic
"Apparently Hal believes that Iraq was pro US before the invasion."

No it wasd not but it was anti Iranian a MAJOR difference

"Pakistan is clearly aligned with Iran as they work with us to fight the extremists."

No they are not they are increasingly aligned with Al Q and its allies... Pakistan has nukes by the way and is far more a danger to us than Iran because Al Q has a chance to get Pakistani nukes

"Lebanon also was apparently in our hip pocket while dominated by Syria, but now look out, they are allied with Iran against the US... Hal must be smoking the good stuff today because this is loony even for him. "

Hezbollah is funded by Iran there is no other real government in Lebanon

These are serious points for discussion. Iran is FAR from being a major threat

Max Power
Hey Max, that is a great quote (on Clinton) since the NYT has just come out with an article on Clinton saying he flatly opposed the war...Yes, the libs will find a way to spin that like Hitlary did with-"we have the best military in the world, when you increase troops, then great things happen" Not exact but my translation is that THESURGE ISWORKING!! Caps and spacing intended.

Now, go on and choke, all you left-minded thinkers and get used to the word VICTORY!!!

Hal
Please explain to those of us supporting the war, how Iraq will become an ally of Iran? I am an inquiring mind and I just don't seem to follow your logic.

desu and uniform
desu writes: Wednesday, November, 28, 2007 10:14 AM
Just like
Just like you guys are afraid to wear the uniform of a solider, you fake macho keyboard warriors are afraid of honest debate


Uhhh several of us on here are wearing uniforms. I have one on now. Many others have already served. Wnat proof just email me or go to

profiles.yahoo.com/tinsldr2 but that pic is about 4 years old now, and was stateside.

wiseone
are you aware that most of the cities in southern iraq are now being run by clerics using sharia law.

the 3 most powerful people in iraq are al-hakim , al-sistani and al-sadr.
all clerics with long term ties to iran (by the way al-maliki) has ties to iran as well.


iraq is going to end up as a theocracy more aligned with iran than us.


Not facts
>Al-Sadr has been correctly identified by a previous poster as anti-US and pro-Iran. During a previous US military operation aimed at rooting terrorist and sectarian violence in Baghdad it go so hot for Al-Sadr he fled to Iran.<

Al-Sadr is more an Iraqi nationalist than his Shiite opposition in the SIC and DAWA parties, whose militia wing, the Badr, was actually trained by the Iranians, and whose leaders; Al-Hakim spent his exile years in Tehran, and Ayatollah Al-Sistani himself an Iranian, are the Shiite faction closest to Iran.

The claim was made that Al-Sadr was in Iran, a claim never proven(and denied), and mysteriously dropped when he made a public appearance in Iraq.

Again, Al-Sadr is anti-American occupation. He, as much as anyone, was overjoyed to see Saddam ousted.
Look at it this way. Conservative Americans are outraged, understandably, at the invasion of millions of Mexicans into this country. Yet, they are quick to label Iraqis who are opposed to a military occupation of their nation as terrorists.

The Sadrists are a huge group in Iraq, a group that will need to be accounted for in any discussion of the future of Iraq.


For MLD
"So Ann Coulter's best selling book was published where? And FOX news - bigger than CNN, DOES not exist? and the WSJ is not BIGGER than the Ny Times? You fools on the right repeat the same nonsense so often you can't keep track of your own lies, distortions and outright absurdities.."

Ann Coulters best-sellers, all of them, were published by Regnery Publishing, a (relatively) tiny publishing company that has published a highly disproportionate number of best-sellers because it is willing to publish conservative authors.

The best source to explain this is Coulter herself. In her second best-seller, "Slander", chapter 6, entitled "Samizdat Media" she writes

"Not all books by conservatives are bestsellers, but conservative books are vastly more popular with book consumers than they are with book publishers."

Coulter goes on to itemize a dozen "surprise" bestsellers by conservatives that became bestsellers despite getting no propmotion from the liberal printed press (which includes virtually every major daily in the country except the Washington Times) and no coveted reviews in the "New York Times".

She also explains how liberal authors like Naomi Wolf routinely get advances of half a million or more for books that end up barely making the best-seller lists or not making it at all despite being wildly hyped by these same newspapers, while conservative authors who are happy to be published at all somehow produce best-seller after best-seller.

She also explains how liberal-leaning publishers, which includes virtually all of the giant publishers, at first tried to justify their refusal to publish conservatives by saying they wouldn't sell and then, after the success of conservative books, contended that profits weren't that important.

And Coulter ought to know. She wrote for years without getting published before she broke through with "High Crimes and Misdemeanors".

Max Power
"Apollo
This wave of victory that Iran is riding, contradicts what Hal is saying in that Iran is NO threat whatsoever.

So which is it? Is Iran turning into this victorious Islamic super-power, or are they no threat?"

Ah I never said Iran was no threat. I did say that by far the greater threat is unstabile NUCLEAR Pakistan being threatened by Al Q and its allies from western Pakistan and eastern Afghanistan

religiouslib
"iraq is going to end up as a theocracy more aligned with iran than us."

Are you suggesting this should become #6 on my list?

But, HalD
Why is Iran going to be an ally of Iraq???? BTW, we are also kicking asss in Afghanistan,too...why is that the left keep searching for the doom and gloom and never see any sunshine even when it blinds you?

Wiseone
O.K.

There I was, at long last, seeming to agree with my confused friends on the right that it was noble to have removed Saddam, when you just had to bring up the troubling issue of regime instability in Afghanistan in facilitating Taliban control of that nation, and its fostering of Al Qaida.

But under Saddam, Iraq was stable...compared to now.

Our invasion in removing Saddam led to instability there, the very instability you so abhor in creating the conditions in Afghanistan that resulted in seizure by radical Islamists.

Our invasion in Iraq resulted in rise of militias, lack of governmental writ in much of the nation, general anarchy, largescale displacement of populations, including massive numbers of Iraqi refugees fleeing to Syria and Jordan, and greatly benefited Iran.

Given that the Taliban exploited the instability in Afghanistan, why would you support a Bush doctrine that created instability in Iraq?

Indeed, perhaps you ought to question your commitment to the Bush-Neocon agenda, in all its majestic intellectual bankruptness and contradictions.

And insofar as Afghanistan is concerned, given the historic high levels of opium cultivation, the rising tide of Taliban activity there, and the inability of the Karzai government to deal with either development, it does not necessarily bode well for us, the "good guys".

A narco-dominated Afghan economy is not exactly a spectacular success for the west.

Utahnotmormon
Agree with you on al-Sadr. He is an Iraqi nationalist, not a puppet of Iranian mullahs, as is for instance al-Hakim, and to a slightly lesser extent, al-Maliki.

As long as we maintain a robust presence in Iraq, al-Sadr, being an Iraqi nationalist, will benefit.

MLD
How many book reviews do you see in the WSJ?

Does the NY Post issue a "Best-seller" list?

Why don't you address the point, since you're the one who raised it?

The big publishing houses turned down many books that became bestsellers while advancing and promoting authors who wrote bomb after bomb.

And Ann Coulter and other conservative authors like Bill Gertz have to go to Regnery Publishing to their books out despite the fact they are (apparently) in far greater demand than liberals like Naomi Wolf, Frank Rich, and Bill Clinton, whose self-serving screed was described as "unreadable" after he got a $10 million advance.

Max Power
"So do we wait until they are a major threat?"

Ideally no but we must go after the worst threat first and contain the lesser threat. That is where Bush screwed up invading Iraq he attacked the lesser threat.

"Also, do you support attacking Pakistan? What do think we should do about them."

I wish I knew. The simple fact is we need more military to unravel this mess. We should be offering Pakistan the world to give up their nukes and nuke facilities. We should have plans and I expect we do that has us attack Pakistan and occupy the nuclear facilities. I suspect the forces are not available. When a third world country goes bad it can go bad very quickly

"I agree that they are too friendly with AQ, BTW... "

In their defense, they are on the back of the tiger

Hey Max
I'm feeling ignored, harumph!! Hal will not answer my question!!
Deny, deny because it was a willy-nilly ignorant statement that cannot be backed up with facts. I understand, that is a tactic used regularly by the monkeys who love tbe superior and spew. Any minute now Hal will tell us he's going for a run, to lunch or something...

jerabaub
"But under Saddam, Iraq was stable...compared to now."

You are correct. I would add the proviso that even though Iraq has been unstable for the last 4-1/2 years, it has hardly been a place from which Iraq could launch another 9/11 against the US. But your statement as made is correct.

So if you want to argue that we should not have gone at all that would be a valid point.

My counter-argument is this. Self-interest. It has been in our self-interest to fight al-Qaeda in Iraq with our military rather than hunkering down in our own country and hope our intelligence agencies could detect every attempt at another 9/11 before it happened.

And thus far the strategy has worked. There have been no al Qaeda attacks against us since went on offense. Spain, on the other hand, got hit a second time even though they withdrew from Iraq after the first attack.

The pattern that is emerging seems to indicate that the only thing terrorists and would-be terrorists respect is superior force.

What to do?
>Also, do you support attacking Pakistan? What do think we should do about them.<

The CIA budget is around 40 billion a year. The intelligence budgets of the joint militaries is likely in the same ballpark if not larger.

What are we getting for our money? It seems NewsMax has almost daily a story about the strenghth of Al Qaeda and a former CIA chief like Woolsely claiming they're preparing for a strike against the US any day. I'm perplexed that, even given the hostile terrain and lack of cooperation with elements of Taliban and Al Qaeda sympathizers within Pakistan's ISI, we are unable to pinpoint the braintrust of the Al Qaeda network.

This should be the #1 priority of our vast intelligence network, yet we seem to be paralyzed by an apparent lack of will. If this administration truly is fighting a global war on terror, we need to use the billions we spend on intelligence to locate the Al Qaeda braintrust and eliminate it.

Will this cause problems with our relationship with Pakistan? A better question might be, will allowing Al Qaeda to continue to grow and expand its worldwide operations cause us more problems in the future?

Hal
"No it wasd not but it was anti Iranian a MAJOR difference"

I suppose their Iranian "alliance" is the reason they are discussing a long term U.S military presence in Iraq right now. Clearly Iran wants U.S troops on its border.

"No they are not they are increasingly aligned with Al Q and its allies... Pakistan has nukes by the way and is far more a danger to us than Iran because Al Q has a chance to get Pakistani nukes"

The Pakistani gov't is killing Al Q, if you call that an alliance you're a bit nutty. Yep, they have nukes but as long as the gov't is supported by us, and their military, Al Q has no chance of getting their nukes. The Pakistan military is and has been for decades the true power in Pakistan.



"Hezbollah is funded by Iran there is no other real government in Lebanon"

Untrue. Lebanon has a real democratic gov't and is far more pro US now than when it was run by Syrian cronies. Hezbollah has always there. They didn't just arrive on the scene you know.

"These are serious points for discussion. Iran is FAR from being a major threat"

Then why all this moaning about this made up "unholy alliance"?

intelligence? planning?
There has been, in fact, an intelligently-guided progression toward a consistent goal throughout the Iraqi campaign. The charge that the war was unplanned is simply and completely false.


You're partially right. The plan was always to drive on Baghdad and overthrow the regime of Saddam Hussein. That was carried of brilliantly, as the president acknowledged in his "Mission Accomplished" speech if May 1, 2003. The Iraqi government, the Iraqi army, and Saddam Hussein himself were all swept away. Then in a miasma of incompetence the country was allowed to collapse into anarchy.

We are currently fighting enemies that didn't exist 4.5 years ago. There may have been a few Al Qaeda operatives in Iraq, but Al Quaeda in Iraq did not exist as an organized armed force. They came into being to fight us. With their attacks on the heretical Shia, they pushed the country to the verge of all-out civil war. Now, with their brutality and fanaticism, they have have alienated their Sunni Arab allies, who are busy exterminating them:)

Once that's over, we can get back to the REAL issue. Who's going to control Iraq: the Shia who have most of the people, most of the oil, and at this point, most of Baghdad; the Kurds, who have the rest of the oil and de-facto independence, or the Sunni Arabs, who have only the conviction that they should run the country as they always have. And the US is not going to have 6 to 8 years to solve this. That would mean that Iraq would be an issue in the 2012 presidential election, and, possibly, even the 2016 election. Before then, President Paul or President Kucinich will have pulled the plug.

Attacks
>even though Iraq has been unstable for the last 4-1/2 years, it has hardly been a place from which Iraq could launch another 9/11 against the US.<

9/11 wasn't launched from another country, it was launched from within this country. It was successful because we failed to understand that Islamists training at our own facilities to steer, yet not land airplanes might be a red flag. It succeeded because airport security was lax due to pressure from the airlines. It was successful because Islamists with known connections to terrorist networks were allowed to obtain visas to enter this country.

U.S. The Worlds Police?
Sitting here reading this thread, it has a become
apparent to me that apparently many of the repubs/cons in here approve of President Bush
strategy of "pre-emptive military strikes" against countries he deems are "enemies" of the
U.S. another major component of this strategie is the "policing" of these countries that either have nuclear weapons or are trying to get the components to build them.

There are many problems with this strategy, principal enough that it would only work against
smaller countries who cannot defend themselves against the u.s. military. With what has happened in Iraq, with Prez Bush's war there, shows that results of such are dubious to say the least. Yet the bushites push on, now targeting Iran as the next possible recipient of such treatment.

The question looms:

How does the U.S., which has amassed more nuclear and conventional weapons of mass destruction, than any other country on the face of the earth, have the right to tell smaller countries what weapons they can and cannot have?

Max: a response.
Isnt it the bartenders responsibilty to quit serving the man liquor? I would think that if he didnt that would make the bar liable for any catastrophe.

If we play by your rules the u.s. can go into any
country they wish and tell them what weapons they can and cannot have. that simply doesnt work in countries small or large that can defend itself against the u.s. yes or no?

Personally, If I had the arsenal that the U.S. has, I wouldnt be getting all harried about
whether Iran has a nuclear weapon. If they would be so stupid as to use it against the U.S., then let them..Iran and its entire population would
be blown off the face of the earth within hours.

max power+
it is quite the problem with iran but here is my perspective.

first we both know that amadajein or whatever his name is, does not have as much power as the mullahs do.

we know the iranian people are not as anti-ameircan as the leaders but if we attack (even in a limited strike against suspected military targets) nationalism will bring all the iranian people together against us.

next, they would blow up a ship in the strait of hormuz, then they would start pouring over the border into iraq.

i would rather (and i know this is politically incorrect) have them have the bomb and we say ok, if you use it we will wipe you out in 10 minutes.

my logic is this, it is too late to stop them (unless we can get them to negotiate like n.korea but bush will not talk to them) so we might as well deal with it.

max power
i swear you and i could solve half the problems in this country if we had the power, we tend to balance each others perspective in a positive manner.


the problem of them handing off to a terrorist organization is a real one although you understand that every expert i have read has said the nuke in a briefcase is still science fiction.

see this is where intel and negotiation comes in.

i think that if we do attack the chances of them handing off or possibly higher.

you know we wont get all the material because they have buried it miles underground.

generally, i still say make them responsible for any act against the west and warn them if a something happens we will blow them up.

max max max....
you need to get out more often into the "real"
world.

I tell you the republican party is the bastion of
conservative white males hell bent on running not only the u.s. but the entire darn world and
you call it nonsense..

I tell you people of color around the world view the u.s. as a "racist imperialistic interloper"
you call that stupid...

I tell you leftist in the u.s. and abroad dont hate america, just a certain kind of american
(right wing conservatives) you dismiss it.

I tell you I could care less if Iran has a nuclear weapon because I dont think they are stupid enough to use it against the u.s. preceding total being anihilated..you say thats dumb..

you really need to get out of your box an talk more to people that dont think like you do.
you'd really be surprised that they agree with
me more than you.

religious lib
So, since the bartender was negligent, you feel no obligation to prevent the drunk from killing himself?

Pretty heartless for a "religious" lib, isn't it? Sounds like a lawyer's answer, not the answer of anything approaching a human being.

max..it aint garbage, its the truth
everyone of the post i write is the TRUTH ..that's why it gets all under your skin..
you just dont want to accept the TRUTH about
racist right wing conservative white males.
oh so they dont want to control the world?
you lack knowlege of world history.
thats why people who write these stupid articles like:

WHY THE LEFT HATES AMERICA?

are so defensive..

let me ask you this:

Was Iraq/Iran once one country and how did it come to be divided?

Problems
AQ only became a big player in name after the Rove propaganda machine rolled out the new spiel. They were an important part, but a small "sliver," as attested by all military experts. Even now the number of foreign fighters we have in detention are mostly Iraqis and then Saudies and Lybians. The danger is though, that AQ is doing very well in other parts of the world and we shouldn't believe these fake news reports about their demise. Its time we take our country back and to throw out the shoddy reporting by the RW fake news outlets. These billionaires, like Murdock and the Washington Times Moon, from other countries and tell us how to run the country is nuts.

max: couple of more questions
what was "The Scramble for Africa"?

once white europeans "discovered and colonized" america what exactly did they do to "native americans?

did africans volunteer, to be u.s. slaves?

apoplectic
"I suppose their Iranian "alliance" is the reason they are discussing a long term U.S military presence in Iraq right now. Clearly Iran wants U.S troops on its border."

The Iraqi government is only who? Is it Parliament? This as an occupied country wait if they get there "stuff" together and see what happens. It is not a long shot that a government of Iraq or Afghanistan will try and bring Bush and company to the Hague for crimes against humanity.

"The Pakistani gov't is killing Al Q, if you call that an alliance you're a bit nutty. Yep, they have nukes but as long as the gov't is supported by us, and their military, Al Q has no chance of getting their nukes. The Pakistan military is and has been for decades the true power in Pakistan."

And much of the military supports the fundamentalists and are hostile to the US. We pay off their leadership. Do not think for a minute we buy anything else like loyalty or effectiveness.

"Hezbollah is funded by Iran there is no other real government in Lebanon"

"Untrue. Lebanon has a real democratic gov't and is far more pro US now than when it was run by Syrian cronies."

Oh I guess you missed it the army is in control now

" Hezbollah has always there. They didn't just arrive on the scene you know."

I know I was there when they arrived

"These are serious points for discussion. Iran is FAR from being a major threat"

Then why all this moaning about this made up "unholy alliance"?"

Because we have a huge mess to clean up and we cannot do it alone and our greatest immediate threat is Pakistani instability



Taft
Amen

max: sure...
I'm real crazy..except I sit down and read history books, real history books..apparently you dont. eviidently you accept the "fictionalized" accounts of
the u.s. and european history you were taught in grade school

in your reality...

the u.s. is "truth, justice and the american way"...long live america, home of the brave and the pure."


Max Power
"This is so over the top, Hal you are so full of it your eyes are brown."

Actually no I am not will they get somewhere? Unlikely right away but those 30 plus folks we admitted died under interrogation are a problem and we did not abbrogate that agreement.

"I know I was there when they arrived"

Then why didn't you single-handedly stop them??"

Sorry I was but one military guy.... but I was there in the early 80's


The New World Order
"A One World Government and one-unit monetary system, under permanent non-elected hereditary oligarchists who self-select from among their numbers in the form of a feudal system as it was in the Middle Ages. In this One World entity, population will be limited by restrictions on the number of children per family, diseases, wars, famines, until 1 billion people who are useful to the ruling class, in areas which will be strictly and clearly defined, remain as the total world population.

There will be no middle class, only rulers and the servants. All laws will be uniform under a legal system of world courts practicing the same unified code of laws, backed up by a One World Government police force and a One World unified military to enforce laws in all former countries where no national boundaries shall exist. The system will be on the basis of a welfare state; those who are obedient and subservient to the One World Government will be rewarded with the means to live; those who are rebellious will simply be starved to death or be declared outlaws, thus a target for anyone who wishes to kill them. Privately owned firearms or weapons of any kind will be prohibited."

Max
Don't have time to go thru all abovr but sounds like you have had an "interesting" day LOL

Taft
The only fake news coming out is from your GREAT HEROS NEW YORK TIMES , remember if you have a leak we can fix it. I laugh so much when you TRAITORCRATS come on here and talk about the right wing media. Your DRIVE BY MEDIA has hurt our military stategy so much that is why I call You TRAITORCRATS. But as usual the groups that DEMS love so much, you know MOVEON.ORG and DAILY KOS and of course HALD and ROBERTS boss GOERGE SOROS are sencere in their reporting. They would never think of lying or putting this country into peril. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA .

yeah max, like hal said...
A REAL INTERESTING DAY...ROTFLMAO

hook, line, and sinker...lol

HALD
I agree I think we should get out of othere occupied countries also, GERMANY, ITALY, ENGLAND,TURKEY,SAUDI,S.KOREA,JAPAN,AUTRALIA,INDIA,PHILLPINES,SPAIN,NETHERLANDS,POLAND,BOSNIA,CUBA,HAITI,GEORGIA,FRANCE,PAKISTAN,AFGANISTAN,SUDAN, HELLGET OUT OF AFRICA,BELGIUM,GREECE,CRETE,ISRAEL,KUWAIT,OKINAWA,NEW GUENEA,HELL WHY DONT WE JUST PULL UP STAKES IN EVERY COUNTRY AND BRING OUR BOYS HOME FOR XMAS now. F#CK the rest of the world because who cares about them. BUT MOST OF ALL I THINK WE SHOULD FIRST THROW THE U.N. OUT ON THEIR ARSES. That way you TRAITORCRATS will not have excuses on why the rest of the WORLD hates us.

chuck
"The only fake news coming out is from your GREAT HEROS NEW YORK TIMES ,..."

The NYT is a newspaper of record your news comes mainly from entertainers like Rush et al.

Max Power
No apology necessary and I am sure you know the feeling is mutual LOL

HALD
SO I guess your Boss GEORGE SOROS and MOVEON.ORG and DAILY KOS are not your beloved entertainers in the night also. You know Goerge Soros the one who goes into countries and deflates their economy so bad that they have to run him out.

Hal
"The Iraqi government is only who? Is it Parliament? This as an occupied country wait if they get there "stuff" together and see what happens. It is not a long shot that a government of Iraq or Afghanistan will try and bring Bush and company to the Hague for crimes against humanity."

So first you claim they are allied with Iran and now you proclaim to not know who they are.

"And much of the military supports the fundamentalists and are hostile to the US. We pay off their leadership. Do not think for a minute we buy anything else like loyalty or effectiveness."

The Pakistani military supports Musharref as do we. It's not about loyalty to us. We didn't put Musharref in power, they did.

"Oh I guess you missed it the army is in control now"

Temporarily.

Pakistan is a big concern but it is not new or of our making. The Pakistani military has been playing a dangerous game with radicals for decades now. We may have forced the issue, but at some point it was going to be an issue anyway. The military was forced to choose sides, either with the radicals or against them. They chose against.






Hey Max..If hillary Clinton can do it...
you know, take over the U.S. by coup d' etah (it's been predicted in th) and turn it into a
communist/socialist country, why not can the
repubs/cons have a FASCIST NEW WORLD ORDER PLOT?

LMAO

that was too much fun...

War On Terror?
I don't know about "winning" as such. We can't stay there forever. Or can we? Do we have a vested interest in stopping attacks on our allies in the region, or is that really their responsibility?

I don't know. Overall, I think I agree with Gore Vidal when he said there was no such thing as "a war on terror". Terror is a tactic, it's not a person,place or thing. Anyone can decide at ANY moment to engage in terrorism. Vidal said launching a "war on terror" was like saying one was launching "a war on bad manners". It's something individuals choose to do.

I certainly don't think it's something that can be fought with a conventional military solution. Soldiers need a defined enemy to kill. What's more, people willing to be terrorists for any number of things aren't trapped in any one specific local.

There are Muslims with a terroristic potential in every country in the world, even this one. Just like we have Christian extremist right here in the U.S. willing to blow up abortion clinics, we no doubt also have homegrown Muslim extremist willing to engage in terrorism for their faith too. What about those two American Muslims who were shooting people like snipers in Virginia I believe?

You can't fight local terrorist with a millitary solution. I think the best route to containing this is probably covert operations both here and abroad.

Sadly, if someone is willing to die in the process of something, there's really little anyone can do to guarantee that another attack won't happen here or anywhere else. No one has even figured out a way to completely stop armed robbery or shop lifting. Like all crimes, all we can really do is try to deter it, foil it, minimize its impact etc.

chuck
"BUT MOST OF ALL I THINK WE SHOULD FIRST THROW THE U.N. OUT ON THEIR ARSES. That way you TRAITORCRATS will not have excuses on why the rest of the WORLD hates us. "

Look I don't know if you are 12 or not but we are in most of those countries under treaty not force of Arms right now we are in Iraq under force of arms. Germany didn't join NATO for quite a few years

chuck
"SO I guess your Boss GEORGE SOROS and MOVEON.ORG and DAILY KOS are not your beloved entertainers in the night also. You know Goerge Soros the one who goes into countries and deflates their economy so bad that they have to run him out. "

I am my own boss Chuck.

apoplectic
"So first you claim they are allied with Iran and now you proclaim to not know who they are."

come on they exchange government business

"The Pakistani military supports Musharref as do we. It's not about loyalty to us. We didn't put Musharref in power, they did."

Musharref resigned the military today their aligence is now to a new man.

"Oh I guess you missed it the army is in control now"

Temporarily."

Keep your fingers crossed as to outcome...

"Pakistan is a big concern but it is not new or of our making. The Pakistani military has been playing a dangerous game with radicals for decades now. We may have forced the issue, but at some point it was going to be an issue anyway. The military was forced to choose sides, either with the radicals or against them. They chose against."

I do not have the time or space to give you a reality check but it is our fauilt and goes back to when the Russians left Afghanistan and continues right up to now. You are wrong the military choices daily and they chose down to the small unit level. Did you see 100 men surrendered in Pakistan's NW to allies of Al Q?


Hal
"Look I don't know if you are 12 or not but we are in most of those countries under treaty not force of Arms right now we are in Iraq under force of arms."

More nonsense. The democratically elected gov't of Iraq has not asked us to leave. We are no more there under force of arms than we are in Germany under force of arms. Where do you get this garbage?

hal d writes:
"The NYT is a newspaper of record"

HAHAHAHAHAA!!! OmiGOD!!! HAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!

Paper of record! AAAAHHAAHAHAHA!! BWAAHHHAHAHA!

That was great! Hahah! Paper of record! HAHAHAA!

Oh, I can't breathe! Hahahhaaaahaha HAAAHAAHAHA

coolbeans
You may want to look up the term. Yous ignorance is showing...

apoplectic
"More nonsense. The democratically elected gov't of Iraq has not asked us to leave. We are no more there under force of arms than we are in Germany under force of arms. Where do you get this garbage? "

With over 100,000 soldiers and another 100,000 mercenaries in country they will do what we say and have acknowledged that. We were and are in Germany under treaty with the approval of the entire German government and as part of the NATO alliance. The occupation ended and the alliance began over many years. We invaded Iraq and did not leave. We control access and security. In no fashion is Iraq free. It looks to be getting free but as yet it certainly is not.

Hal
"Musharref resigned the military today their aligence is now to a new man."

Oh please, because he resigned as head of the military you think they suddenly don't have any allegiance to him?

"I do not have the time or space to give you a reality check but it is our fauilt and goes back to when the Russians left Afghanistan and continues right up to now. You are wrong the military choices daily and they chose down to the small unit level. Did you see 100 men surrendered in Pakistan's NW to allies of Al Q?"

Well I wonder what the other 100 men are going to do? You use one small insignificant piece of data to make an absurd overarching conclusion. Is it really your contention that the Pakistani military is deciding to do whatever they want at the small unit level? It's a fractured command of 10,000 mini generals all making their own decisions? You would first need some foundation in reality to give anyone a reality check and please don't start in with the "we were funding Bin Laden during the soviet war in afghanistan" BS, if that was going to be your history lesson.




fighting al gaida
it would seem that like any war there is an ongoing change in strategy on how it should be fought. Many thought that the removal of the blood thirsty dictator saddam would be enough for this country to want to make a unified country. What many didn't understand was the depth of the tribal infighting and hatred that would result. But the muslims have successfully framed the argument that we were fighting to destroy the only thing they value, which is their pathetic blood cult which passes for a religion. But it would seem that finally even the iraqi's have come to realize this isn't the case and they are finally tiring of the continual bombings, the murders and the maimings that have gone on. Perhaps with more training the will get a police force or army that will weed out the jihadists coming from outside the country who keep stirring things up. Maybe then they will decide that some cooperation will work better than incessant tribal warfare. We can only hope. But it seems that the only currency that has any value in the region is continued hatred. In the final analysis however only the iraqi's can finally save themselves. But if we can assist them in killing off al qaida perhaps that will make things go easier

Left Angle
Now, here's the way it should really be done...You want to drink and you go to the bar... You pay for drinks until you cannot stand up and the b'tender knows this, but you paid, so he is gonna give you that drink. You're falling down drunk and proceed to leave, and assumably drive. It was your responsibility to know when to stop. Not the bartender's. You bumped into a friend who sees you're lit. He tells you he will take you home. Nice friend, got your back. Next nite you do the same thing, but no friend, and oops, you get caught. Yeah, in Europe at least they get that right, they just plain throw your assss in jail...and it ain't the bartender's fault.

You lefties will always try to blame someone else. In the meantime, go back under your rock, because those who believe in the true security of this Country know that it may require taking out another who has the nukeswhich threaten us. Holy cow, if I hadn't seen it...

hal d
I'm am acquainted with the term, you insufferable idiot.

I am also aware that you, like little pinch, are a despicable liar and a shameless shill for the stalinist dem party.

BTW, liar... Where are those hidden bases? Still waiting for your answer, turd.


apoplectic
"Oh please, because he resigned as head of the military you think they suddenly don't have any allegiance to him?"

Not right now but a month from now....

"Well I wonder what the other 100 men are going to do? ,,,,"we were funding Bin Laden during the soviet war in afghanistan" BS, if that was going to be your history lesson. "

Not at all. Most of the troops alligence is not to "Pakistan" it is to "home". Think of the US in 1861" Even though the South supported slavery and the wealthy some troops still supported them. But the PAkistan Army is nowhere close to the institution you think it is. I could list hundreds of similar stories that give a picture to the whole. I do not see this as a left right thing I see this as a wake up thing


coolbeans
"I'm am acquainted with the term, you insufferable idiot."

Well why did you pretend you didn't? You lied then or you are lying now?

"I am also aware that you, like little pinch, are a despicable liar and a shameless shill for the stalinist dem party.

BTW, liar... Where are those hidden bases? Still waiting for your answer, turd. "

Ahhh poor fella sorry I upset you. And I gave the ref once not again. Want to change the subjest? I can see why

Squabbling around the bird feeder
That's what these comments always remind me of. Austin Bay is uniquely well informed, particularly in comparison with anybody here. It's kind of odd to dismiss what he has to say on purely partisan grounds, particularly when the reporting from the MSM has been so dismal and wrong in the past.

Al Qaeda did more than any number of Americans could do to destroy its influence with Muslim societies, by behaving like mobsters rather than real Muslims. The locals finally decided that they would be better off with the Americans than these thugs who were killing their own tribal leaders. The word is starting to spread among Muslims that these guys aren't looking out for their interests.

Read "The Looming Tower" and "Imperial Grunts." America's proven anti-insurgent strategy is to defend locals from insurgents, provide them with things to make their lives better, like roads, clean water, hospitals, schools, etc. It's being proven again in Iraq.

But that doesn't mean that Al Qaeda will give up or that we don't have to worry about the Iranians who are funding demagogues like Muqtada al Sadr.

What's sad is that so many Americans are opposed to helping these people purely on the grounds that "If Bush is for it, it must be evil."

Turning our backs on the emerging terrorist regimes will not make them go away. They'll be there whether we have a Dem president or another Republican. So far, I've heard the Democrat candidates claim they can deal with terrorism, but none have gone into any specifics.

coolbeans says:
""The NYT is a newspaper of record"

HAHAHAHAHAA!!! OmiGOD!!! HAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!"

It's the best newspaper in America. I love it when Warpublicans smear the Times - yet offer nothing as an alternative (Ann Jew Hating KKKoulter looked towards Drudge as HER news source).

Come on Beans - which paper is a more reliable news source than the Times?
Anyone?

Max says:
"The Israelis had every right to bomb it, they knew the threat of a nuclear weapon floating around the region was a threat to their existence."

So even though Israel has developed nukes, bombed Iraq in the 80s, invaded their neighbor (twice), recently dropped bombs on Syria and routinely breaks international law, they still - in your eyes, have the right to unilaterally met out justice as they see fit? And any or all who oppose them or use similar tactics are criminals and terrorists? AND no Arab nation must EVER develop the same weapons that every European nation AND Israel enjoys - even though only America has actually used similar weapons? And even if America sells weapons to Iran, they have the right to decide - at any future date, that Iran is now a rouge state. And even though America did business with and sold weapons to Iraq, they have the right - an any time they see fit, to invade and occupy Iraq? But if Iraq supports the enemies of Israel and America - even after America enforced UN sponsored sanctions on iraq - that have been said to have killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, then iraq is still a "supporter of terrorism?" and a roge state? And even if Saddam was a terror and a brute and killed tens of thousands of his country men - when we kill as many or more via "liberation" we're still always right?
And you wonder why the world, Dennis Prager aside, thinks America the most dangerous nation on earth?
When I read guys like you, I sure don't...

CHUCK
I'm wondering if YOU are old enough TO POST ON THIS THREAD!!!!!! You are OBVIOUSLY a NOT IN ANY condition to share your THOUGHTS (!??!??!) with ADULTS!!!!!

I'm going to send HAL over to your HOUSE to TELL YOU PARENTS what you are DOING WITH THEIR computer/!!!!!!!!!


I just noticed
That a pact (I don't know the details) was just signed between the U.S. and 6,000 Sunnis.

Well, it looks like 5-plus years and over 100,000 deaths and disfigurements later, we are giving Iraq back to the people who had it in the first place.

Ignore them
Chuck, don't pay any attention to HalD, Touj or MNYDog -- they all are mentally disturbed. Go USA, keep kicking Al Qaida butt. The surge is working!

Free Ramos and Compean
Death to Palestinians

libphobic
new name? Did you get tossed yet again?

Robert
"who were those idiots that you speak of?"

Wolf, Perle, Cheney,,,,

Hope all is well

Touj
The people meaning the Sunnis? I don't think so...I think we may be looking more for a status quo within the country...You know a balance thing...Together with SA... Strengthen the Sunnis...get the Shia nervous...thereby forcing consessions from them...Leveraging Iran at the same time by makeing them worry about what we may be promising to the Syrians etc. It is all soooo very complicated and fragile. Shifting constantly. I will be amazed if we can pull it off. BUT I WILL be hoping we can! will YOU?

Good point
>Many thought that the removal of the blood thirsty dictator saddam would be enough for this country to want to make a unified country. <

No Middle East expert thought that. Take the Kurds. They had established an autonomous region free from Arab meddling, and wanted no part of a unified Iraq, except on their own twerms, which meant separate goverment, separate security, separate economy, even separate flag and language.
And who thought the Shia, after having been murdered and oppressed for decades by Sunnis, would suddenly embrace them as fellow Iraqis?

Who?

The ones(mainly Cheney and Wolfowitz) who bought Ahmed Chalabi's kool-aid. Experts like Peter Galbraith were voices in the wind.

utahnotmormon
The Iraqi Kurds would be more than happy to be part of Iraq if they could be autonomous (read Freedom within country). You are confusing the (Iranian Kurds and the Turkish Kurds) with the Iraqi Kurds. They all will probably fight a civil war with each other as the Iraqi Kurds just wanting to be left alone to prosper (with all the Oil of course!) apart from the "Kurdish" state leaning Kurds. But then again that could change next week!

Ron
"You are confusing the (Iranian Kurds and the Turkish Kurds) with the Iraqi Kurds."

Your experience or backgrround for this call is what?

HalD
Following their story with great interest for years...only one personal friend in the middle (Iraqi) and Statfor updates daily...Maybe not enough...to prove...but at least enough to suggest a reasonable alternative perception...

PS: You have me STILL thinking of war Memorials...Hmmmm

Ron
"Following their story with great interest for years...only one personal friend in the middle (Iraqi) and Statfor updates daily...Maybe not enough...to prove...but at least enough to suggest a reasonable alternative perception..."

OK thanks that is fair. I have always seen the Iraqi Kurds as feeding the Turkish and Iranian Kurds to fight on. But my Kurdish classmate disappeared years ago sadly

"PS: You have me STILL thinking of war Memorials...Hmmmm "

Lost me?

HalD
Are you really going to make me admit to reading your posts on Huffington...in TH??...and risk banishment of all ron's in one fell swoop?(I think there are four by the way...REALLY all different but much the same...No BS really 4 different. -RonM

Ron
I'm not confused. The only reason there isn't an independent Kurdistan is lack of US support. The lack of US support is based on our relationship with Turkey more than any sense of Iraqi unity.

Kurds distrust Arabs, Turks and Persians, and for good reason. Increasingly, they don't trust the US either, which has left them hanging in the wind in the past.

I have faith that our country will eventually do the right thing and support an independent Kurdistan. That likely won't happen under this administration.

Ron
LMAO no sorry I understand. I must be off now and gone for a few days. Be well.

Hal Donahue
Until recently...you are correct...They had the money!...Now they want to Keep it! Turkish and Iranian Kurds have nothing but what the USA gives them to conduct proxy operations (No judgement at this time!) Sorry to hear of your friend...How is he CALLED?

Robert
I understand and have been there once or twice myself. Be well and my best to the ladies. I really must go

Good!
Glad Al CIA-eda is finally getting beaten down!

Now bring the troops home.

Pancho
Sorry...No harm by confusion meant...
Yes, on point one ... and
yes on point two (AT this time!)...BUT...
The US CAN NOT commit to supporting a "Radical" (forgive me) Turkish element that is destabilizing Turkey (Our Ally? definately our dependent) Likewise can not ADMIT to supporting an Iranian Turkish element and has NO CHOICE but to support the Iraqi Turkish element...which is puppy dog loyal right now...(Puppy treats are so useful!)

Hogwash
What hilarious hogwash.

Sunni cooperation with Coalition Forces has not translated into broad Sunni Arab support for the Iraqi government or widespread willingness to work with the Shiites.

This was from the beginning a Sunni insurgency, and the only reason that foreign fighters were in Iraq was because the Sunni’s tolerated them for tactical convenience.

We removed that convenience by bribing them with a lot of money, which we are still handing out, which they are using to buy a lot of weapons so that they can defend themselves from the Shiites.

In short, we are arming forces opposed to the government we created.

It’s a short term solution that will have long-term consequences. But Bush is just trying to run out the clock, so it suits his needs.

Blake
Maybe so...time will tell...but...what do you say...
of all friendships that are made along the way...
Deceptions? Sincere?
Such ties in ME are those which WILL perceiver

What a lovely poem
I didn't know bribing people with a lot of money, which they use to buy guns, was an act of trust of "friendship".

But one thing these groups we are bribing have remained consistent on from day one -- they do not support the current "Iraqi" government.


Google Ron Paul, You will like him!
If you want a change in a failed foreign policy that we can no longer afford, check out Dr. ROn Paul for President. You will be pleasantly surprised, as many Americans who now passionately support him and his cause.. Freedom and liberty for all! And, he is a doctor, not a lawyer. See how he voted and you cannot help but like this guy. He gerts more donations from our Military than any other candidate, so what does that tell you??? God Bless America and Ron Paul.

You and what army?
OUT OF IRAQ AND INTO IRAN! Free Patraeus from Iraq and send him to Tehran.

The only way we're going to get to Tehran is the same way we got to Tokyo and Richmond. It would require a much bigger army than we have now. That would require a draft and higher taxes. Since it would likely disrupt the world's oil supply, it might also require gasoline rationing. I don't mean the odd-even day business we had in the 70's, but REAL rationing with coupons. Then there is what Lord Nelson called the "butcher's bill." It can be done, but let's understand the cost.
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