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Wednesday, October 17, 2007
Austin Bay :: Townhall.com Columnist
Recognizing the Armenian Genocide
by Austin Bay
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It's an old phenomenon: When the dispossessed get clout, the past becomes a battleground. Often the stakes in the present are extraordinarily high.

An exemplary skirmish over very bad history is taking place in the U.S. Congress -- in this case, the World War I slaughter of Armenians by Ottoman Turkey.

Whether or not the Ottomans' mass deportation and murder of Armenians in 1915 and 1916 reaches the formulaic, industrial magnitude of the Nazis' genocide or Stalin's decimation of Ukraine is a debating point for lawyers and apologists. The Ottoman "Young Turk" government took a systematic approach that stinks of classic tribal "ethnic cleansing." The Ottomans disarmed Armenian soldiers and removed them from the ranks of the Turkish army. Suspect loyalty and connivance with the Orthodox Christian enemy, Russia, was the ostensible rationale.

After confiscating Armenian guns, Ottoman knives appeared. Mobs murdered Armenian intellectuals and leaders -- killing communicators silences a community. Then the deportations began, featuring long marches where starvation and sunstroke killed as many as the attacks of "thieves and raiders." One-and-a-half million Armenians (out of a population of approximately 2.5 million) died in this directed chaos. Darfur and the Congo are contemporary examples of this hideous technique.

WWI ended. After a bout of internal chaos and a war with Greece, republican Turkey emerged from the Ottoman wreckage. Its political architect, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, launched political and cultural revolutions, creating a secular Turkey and with it a possible Islamic bridge to modernity. Turkey adopted Latin script, a visual, literary break with the Ottoman Empire and caliphate. It's one reason al-Qaida fanatics despise Ataturk more than they do George Bush.

Modern Turks can make a case they aren't the Ottomans.

Diaspora Armenians, however, now have influence and a voice. The once dispossessed have earned it. Armenians have had extraordinary political and economic success in Western Europe and the United States.

Only the heartless would dismiss their desire to recognize the great wrong. Yet historical verification and vindication aren't the only goals -- the U.S. House resolution backed by Armenian-Americans demands punishment of the perpetrators.

The perpetrators, however, are long dead. The Turkish government thus sees the resolution as a political attack on Turkey.

At a less volatile moment one can imagine Congress passing the nonbinding resolution. I would support it, particularly if it promoted Turkish and Armenian reconciliation.

But find the less volatile moment. The Clinton administration judged the year 2000 as too volatile to pass the House resolution. President Clinton valued U.S.-Turkish relations, and the United States needed access to Turkish airbases to enforce the U.N.-mandated northern no-fly zone that helped protect Iraqi Kurds from Saddam. Clinton got then-House Speaker Dennis Hastert to kill the resolution.

Those Turkish bases now supply and support U.S. troops in Iraq. No matter one's opinion on Iraq, antagonizing Turkey when it provides air and logistical bases supporting U.S. troops actively deployed in a combat zone is foolish and craven. A Turkish decision to shut down these facilities would cut a major coalition supply line. U.S. troops in Iraq would face increased risks.

This is reason enough to delay passing the resolution. There are others. For two years, Turkey has threatened to invade northern Iraq in order to destroy Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) bases. The Iraqi government and Washington have both promised Turkey they will "act against the PKK." Turkey says it is tired of waiting -- and has an army on the Iraqi border prepped for action.

Cynics suggest Turkey has been waiting for an opportunity to slip U.S. calls for military restraint and launch a decisive attack to finish off the PKK. The resolution provides Ankara with just this opportunity. Conceivably, Washington could "trade" a deferred resolution for a Turkish promise to restrict its operations in Iraq to "hot pursuit" situations, special-forces actions and surveillance. Diplomats on both sides might structure such a transparent but useful give and take.

Note I said deferred resolution. 2015 may be as volatile as 2007. Historical horrors like the Armenian genocide really don't have anniversaries or centennials, or at least they shouldn't. They do deserve recognition and remembrance as instructive history, but recognition should not do damage to the present. 2015 -- a hundred years after the Armenian massacre -- strikes me as the perfect time to pass the resolution.

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About The Author

Austin Bay Austin Bay is author of three novels. His third novel, The Wrong Side of Brightness, was published by Putnam/Jove in June 2003. He has also co-authored four non-fiction books, to include A Quick and Dirty Guide to War: Third Edition (with James Dunnigan, Morrow, 1996).
 
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©Creators Syndicate
As you said, they are all dead
WHAT POSSIBLE GOOD could a resolution do?

But, if the Armenians MUST have one, then make sure it specifies OTTOMAN EMPIRE and not Turkey.
Perhaps a fine distinction, but could help avert a catastrophy.

I think it is similar to saying ALL White Americans are responsible for slavery. It is NOT true and damages White/Black relations. Why should I (if White) give an apology for something I did NOT do? Why should I (if Black) demand an apology for something I didn't experience? And, if you do think an apology is in order - How many times, or does EVERY Black deserve that apology? Even those recently arrived? Where does it end?

The Dems are showing
us, once again, that they have poor judgment at best, or, at worst, deep seated desires to damage America's efforts to insert itself into a region where at least two nations have nuclear designs and harbor terrorists.

Keep in mind, fearless leaders, that a weapon of mass destruction can also be biological. In this age of technological sophistication, we do not need rogue dictatorships harboring terrorists.

Suppose for example, that Iranian scientists created a virulent form of aids, one that could be transmitted by mosquitoes.

THe creation of democracy in the Middle EAst is a noble cause that anyone except a power-hungry, self-absorbed magalomaniac would support. How will history (and your grandchildren) judge your obstructionist actions.

And yet . . . Part I
Bush has no problem "aggravating" China by meeting with the Dali Lama. Sorry, I support both Bush's meeting with the Tibetan leader and the condemnation of the Armenian Genocide. The Turks are upset not because it offends Turkey, but because it implicates Islam.

Even AFTER Turkey was established, there was looting, murder, and "acts" of genocide. The ONLY reason these acts might not be considered genocide is because there wasn't enough time and not enough non-Turks to kill. In fact, in 1920, Alexander Millerand, president of the Supreme Allied Council stated "[t]he Turkish government not only failed in its duty to protect its non-Turkish citizens from the looting, violence and murders, but there are many indications that the Turkish government itself was responsible for directing and organizing the most cruel attacks against the populations, which it was supposed to protect. For these reasons, the Allied powers have decided to liberate from the Turkish yoke all the lands where the majority of the people were non-Turks."

The Treaty of Sevres established Greek authority over the Greek areas of Asia Minor. What did the Turks do? Invaded, killed and ran off all of the non-Turks they could. They have also occupied Constantinople, continuing the occupation began by the Muslims centuries earlier.


And yet . . . Part II
These attacks, after WWI, were little more than continuations of genocide. I know we like to attempt to separate pre- and post-WWI Anatolia, as if the Turks did nothing within the Ottoman Empire. However, the Young Turks were the same ones who engaged in these massacres and then became leaders and members of the "secular" government.

Turkey was founded on slaughter. We should recognize what happened for what it was. It is unfortunate that it comes now - this should have been done decades ago. But, then again, the US, too, had a diplomatic ship in the harbor at Smyrna, and did nothing but have the band play louder, to drown out the screams for help as the Greeks and Armenians huddle on the docks in the midst of a burning city. As did most of the Western nations.

Yes, we have reason to question Democratic involvement at this point. But that DOES NOT vitiate the "rightness" of this action. Just as the need for China to be involved in applying pressure to places like North Korea doesn't mean we shouldn't pressure them on Tibet, we shouldn't NOT engage in calling the Armenian genocide what it was for political expediency. Even if the Democrats are only doing it, themselves, for that reason.

the sinner,

Charles

We should also
talk about the horror that is Cyprus.

Oh, by the by, I'm not Greek or Armenian, just in case somebody wonders if this isn't just some "old family or racial grudge" that fires me up like this.

the sinner,

Charles

Well, gotta tell you
And I'll clear the air right now, I'm half Armenian.

Here's the problem with the basic premise of this column.

"At a less volatile moment one can imagine Congress passing the nonbinding resolution"

You know what? We've been hearing that for over 20 years! There's just NEVER a less volatile moment, and meanwhile, every single year, there are fewer and fewer of the survivors left. This stuff happened 90 years ago. It was THE event that encouraged Hitler to initiate the Holocaust. As he told Goebbels, when Goebbels expressed doubt about the Final Solution, "Who remembers the Armenians?"

Are we now going to prove HITLER right?

BTW
All you folks so worried about our relations with Middle Eastern countries.

We can solve almost all our problems in the ME very easily.

All we have to do is renounce Israel.

How's that fit your pistol?

An OLD Story revisited
Yesterday, many TH'ers exchanged messages about this same issue. Why this article follows today is rather peculiar, it was quite thoroughly covered in substantial detail by more than 200 of us.

I'm no fan of Pelosi/Murtha or their motivations for bringing this resolution up at this time but wish to point out to all of you that this has been the subject of past Congresses, and others going all the way back to a time closer to the actual event.

If you would all spend some time reading the following link, it amply demonstrates in rather exquisite detail those prior efforts. This link sets forth the actions in the year 2000. Once read, one can hardly spend more time thrashing over An Old Story Revisited:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&report=hr933&dbnam e=106&

Do yourself and the rest of TH, read this and lets get on with our lives.

Nothing and Everything
In a further effort to spell out the hopelessness of continuing on and on, decade after decade in this futile divisive exercise, let me now ask you to review the following from the United Nations, circa 1996. It may, at first blush, seem to have NOTHING to do with the issue but it actually has EVERYTHING to do with the finger pointing blame game which is never going to solve any past grievances, revive the dead or end the horrors of our human history.

http://www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/51/c3/ac351-9.htm

If you take the time to read this and the information in my prior posting, just above, you will have learned more than you knew or thought you knew and there are more lessons to learn going forward that we all need to concentrate on.

Gee, I'm beginning to feel like Rodney King.

BrianR........
.....I hope your Israel comment is tongue-in-cheek.
It's a democracy and aid in the ME. Get a grip.

Reparations
are a snare and a delusion. Sorry folks, i feel no guilt for the hundreds of thousands killed by carpet bombing in WWII. Horror yes, guilt, no. With hindsight, many of these dead had no strategic effect. Likewise, i feel no guilt for KKK lynchings, or Aushwitz, although of German extraction. I don't expect black Americans to feel guilt for the atrocities committed by the Mau Mau, nor Japanese to agonize over the rape of Nanking. Horrible generic crimes occur. We recognize them and take steps to lessen being involved in one. These are the real world things we can do. Reparations are pie in the sky idiocy. Who should pay? Who is entitled to receive damages? Decisions impossible.

Hundred Year Hindsight
Hindsight is wonderful if you are not talking about your own actions. However, the time and place does matter. The Turk war strategy was why they won. They knew people die in a war and it is to the end unless you want to fight it again.

I don't think David was aiming at Goliath's leg. There was no intent to 'just wound him' with the idea of making friends.

It would be interesting to get the history of what the Armenians were doing to the Ottomans just prior to their own defeat.




Superb Article!
Austin Bay eloquently recounts the history of the Armenian genocide and accurately states the strategic importance of Turkey to the U.S. (and NATO) today. Passing the resolution now is wrong on so many levels. It must wait until another time; perhaps a time of Armenian-Turkish reconciliation. Don't worry - they will never be forgotten and the issue is not finished. This is just not the right time.

Every time
I read the comment that this is a Democrat resolution, I think of MY Republican congressman (ED Royce) who co-authored the damned thing.

I found out yesterday his motivation was to pander to Armenian-Americans in his district. I wonder if these people are more Armenian than American. Maybe that's why they aren't bothered by its effect on our troops.

And The Purpose For Dems Doing This?
Even their Messiah, Billie Bob Bubba, said don't do it. Now, just to show she can, Pelosi is going for it irrespective of the outcome. Hate America is their motto. Pelosi, why not do a letter-to-Turkey like the Senate Dems to Limbaugh. That got much more public interest than the meaningless-to-Americans resolution. Why??? I demand instead the overthrow of Irish potatoes!

The reason
This was done at this moment is unfortunately clear.

The objective of the Democrats is to get Turkey sufficiently angry at us to close our airbase at Incirlik, thus depriving our forces in Iraq of their primary (and actually only safe) air-resupply refueling base in a position to allow our airlifters to reach the OpArea without having to go "the long way around" (i.e., via Diego Garcia) to avoid countries that are probably not on our side. The only other country in the area that gives AMC this capability is Israel, which they've been avoiding using for obvious (political) reasons. Kuwait, while handy as a pit stop coming in from DG, is on the wrong side of Iraq for flights from CONUS via Europe.

Making Ankara mad enough at us to throw us out of Incirlik would make operations in Iraq difficult enough that the Democrats could then do their usual "It's Too Hard For Us To Do!" throw-up-their-hands-and-quit act. Which is their endgame. (AKA Handing Iraq To Iran On A Silver Platter.)

If this resolution was so important, why didn't it come up the last two times the Democrats (a) controlled Congress and (b) had a President who kept busy running around the world "confronting injustice" (Jimmy Carter) and "making amends for past wrongs" (Bill Clinton)?


Their "reasoning" is as transparent as their cynicism.


cheers

eon

Shamefull
The Dems don't have the backbone or votes to cut off funds so they backdoor the war effort by attacking the supply line. They know that GWB represents the US to the rest of the world. By doing this they know full well that protests will erupt in Turkey and GWB will be made the scapegoat. Well what goes around comes around. Should Shrillary be elected then Republicans can pull the same stunts but I doubt they will. In the name of getting along they seem to take it on the chin turn the other cheek and move on.

In short...
This is another Democrat ploy to weaken President Bush's foreign policy, lose the war on terror and generally harm the interests and future of the United States.

What scares me more than anything else is these anti-American activists keep getting re-elected.

Revenge is Sweet
It is interesting to read through posts to this thread with "the past already happened so why seek revenge". In fact, my impression as a student of townhall, is that all conservatives are seeking revenge. It is impossible to read or listen to conservative material without encountering this scenario: "Liberals have controlled this country for far too long. They control the schools, colleges, universities, newspapers, movies, television, courts, science, medicine, and social institutions. We conservatives are a persecuted minority. Enough already! Now we are taking control. [At this point we may hear some fantasy of shooting liberals in the head or stringing them up as traitors.] Conservatives rule!"

Whether we are talking about Armenians lobbying Congress, or about Nazi-hunters still hunting a half-century after World War II ended, or about conservatives putting the screws to liberal college professors (as happens hourly on townhall), it's all about revenge: "I have been angry for a long time and now I have the power---so I am going to address my old grievance first by punishing and then by obliterating the instrument of my suffering".

Inquiring minds want to know
For the record, I have changed my mind on this issue. I now believe that the resolution in congress should not be passed.

"Real Politik" dictates that we not offend the sensibilities of the Turks, on whom we rely for transiting needed materiel for the war in Iraq.

It is true the Turks oppose our invasion of Iraq, and even refused to permit our military to cross into Iraq from Turkish territory.

But no matter. They are helpful to us now(I happen to think the Turks, along with virtually all muslim states in the area, were correct in opposing our invasion of Iraq, but, again, no matter).

I watched with interest last evening how Charles Krauthammer and William Kristol on the Fox News "allstars with Brit Hume", railed against condemning Turkey for its genocide of Christian Armenians. I had to wonder if these neocon supporters of Israel would have opposed condemnation of Turkey for genocide had the victims been Jewish refugees wanting to reach the holy land, instead of Christian Armenians?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Hustler
I don't know the answer to your question as to the activities of Armenians before they were slaughtered. However, the implication is that they deserved it. Apparently just as the Jews must have done something to earn the ire of the Nazis and the young girl around the corner deserved to be raped because, well, she dressed like a tramp.

As for the resolution, I will say this: I did not fully understand the angst of black Americans due to their forebears enslavement. Not until I married a young woman of Armenian decent and could talk to her grandparents, whose experiences as young children affected the rest of their lives, did I begin to understand. The experiences of parents and grandparents are passed on to their prodigy in small, sometimes imperceptable, ways. Unforutnately, negative experiences have a greater impact than we'd all wish for.

I understand the need for diplomacy and the strategic importance of good relations with Turkey. But how long will the slaughter of 50% to 75% of a people continue to be relegated to insignificance?

Bush the Turk
The Democrat congress recognizes only one enemy. Nothing else matters. Why not decide to stop all trade with China? The cultural revolution was only 40 years ago and killed millions. WE MUST SPEAK OUT! One comment blames the Armenien slaughter for encouraging Hitler. What about the success of Fascism in Mussolinni's Italy? Surely THAT was much more important. WE MUST SPEAK OUT! The hilarity, if you like gallows humor, is that these fools expect to win the next presidential election! There is no way they can force Bush out of Iraq and they will preside over the debacle. Unlike Vietnam, there won't be a Republican figurehead to blame and little yellow people quietly drowning in the China Sea and rotting in the Cambodian Jungle. This one will be on the internet for all to watch. A fool, blinded by lust for position and power, Grandma Pelosi had her husband buy her the speakership. No amount of money will wipe out the bloodstains, Lady MacDeath. She should pray for an early death so she won't have to watch.

Another Goebbels style "Big Lie"
There was no "Armenian genocide". The notion that there was has been cultivated by generations of Armenian immigrants to the US. The truth is that Bolsevist Armenians have perpetrated numerous genocides against ethnic Turks. See for example
http://www.azerigenocide.org/genocidecampaign.htm

Goebbels once stated something to the effect that if you tell a lie often enough, people will start to believe it and that is precisely what has happened in the case of the so-called "Armenian genocide". This "big lie" has gotten bigger and bigger with time until it has become accepted as though it had an actual factual basis.

As I've noted before in connection with this issue, Turkey logically should pass a reciprocal resolution condemning the US genocide in Sherman's march through Georgia.

As for our Congress, it has no right to enact *ANY* resolution that purports to determine the guilt of anybody, much less the guilt of a whole people. The bill of attainder clause is part of the fabric of the original Constitution dating from even before enactment of the Bill of Rights. The bill of attainder clause was meant to strangle at its birth any notion of a legislative right to determine guilt, whether by "non-binding resolution" or otherwise. Judgments of guilt are for the courts to determine - not Congress. By acceding to this arrogant and unconstitutional resolution, Americans will lose another valued right - the right to be free from legislative determinations of their guilt.

Sometimes it's amazing how easy it is for the American people to be suckered into the loss of rights that were purchased at the price of much blood.

Bill of Attainder?
That's practically a way of life for this Congress. The guilty party is always the same. BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH. It's an endless drumbeat in their hollow heads..... They would welcome the destruction of an American city with a nuke if only it could be used agaist their only enemy. BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH.

Last year
an Armenian journalist in Turkey (Hrant Dink),was assasinated outside of his office! Why? Because he used the word "genocide".
Would anyone make the same arguments if the tables were turned, and it was Germany denying the holocaust of the Jews? Would it be "irresponsible" of the U.S. to recognize the holocaust, because Germany was a key ally?

If Iran was an ally in the war on terror…would the U.S. be ok with going along with Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust denial, as long as Iran was kept happy?




House Resolution condemning Turkey
The House Resolution condemning Turkey for acts of the Ottoman Empire is a veiled attempt to cut off supplies to the troops in Iraq. Congress does not have the courage or the votes to cut the funds directly. However, anyone that helps pass this resolution will have the blood of American heroes on their hands. No amount of pork barrel projects or new VA hospitals will clean this blood away.


Charles Akins

Sasha
More information on Dink's treasonable activities prior to his death can be found at:

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/Loyalty.htm

tallarmeniantale.com is also generally a valuable resource for debunking the bogus "Armenian Genocide".

As for Dink's "assassination", he was killed by a 17-year-old dope addict who acted out of personal impulse.

Patrick
Yes, don’t you see–the Armenians are deceitful and treacherous. You can’t trust them. Sound familiar? Note that any similarly gross overgeneralisation about another group of people would be met with fierce denunciations from all sides.



Money in Them Thar Turkish Hills
An interesting side note on the Turkey-Armenia news appears in the New York Times 10-17: Former Louisiana Republican Representative Robert L (Bob) Livingston has been the main lobbyist for Turkey since leaving Capitol Hill in 1999. He has collected more than $12 million from Turkey for his firm, The Livingston Group. There's a nearly half-page article detailing his role in lobbying for Turkish interests. Most recently he has been influencing lawmakers' positions re Turkey/Armenia.

from National Review
M.Krikorian:

"Our policy toward modern Turkey should have nothing whatsoever to do with acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. But caving to Turkish pressure never to use “Armenian” and “genocide” in the same sentence is what has given the current resolution its impetus.

Critics are right that Congress has no business weighing in on historical controversies. But there is no controversy here .This isn’t even a matter of the polite fictions necessary to international diplomacy. Denying the Armenian Genocide is simply a lie, and a lie propagated at the behest of a foreign power. It’s unworthy of us."


Amen to that


BrianR
You mention above the Hitler "quote" that says "Who remembers the Armenians?"

Your being duped into believing that particular lie is just another example in the long succession of Armenian frauds that are designed to win them sympathy and to compare themselves with the Nazi genocide against the Jews.

The phony Hitler "quote" debunked:

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm

Who cares?
The past is the past, and as a nation this "genocide" is not even our past.

What matters is the present and the future, OUR future, and I for one think that the safety of our soldiers trumps this feel good resolution.

sasha
Anyone who promotes the lie of the "Armenian Genocide" falls into one of two categories:

a. deceitful and treacherous

b. someone who blindly follows those who are deceitful and treacherous.

The evidence that the "Armenian Genocide" has been promoted by deceitful and treacherous means is abundant. Only people who are not searching for the truth and who merely accept an official line without conducting proper research are likely to fall for such baloney.

For example, examine my response to BrianR above exposing the fraudulent "Hitler quote" and refute me - if you can.

Patrick ...
Others may fall for your refutations of the genocide. I've talked to a man who lived through the genocide. Although not with us now, I came to know him as a humble honest man who would never tell a lie. I believed him then and I believe him now. Not quite sure what dog you have in this fight, but I, for one, will never believe you.

Political expediency and right wing
The refusal understand the importance of this resolution on the genocide smacks of Chamberlain's appeasement and "peace in our time".

Partly because the world ignored the Armenian genocide, we had the Jewish holocaust.

What group gets to go next time in the name of political expediency and supply lines?

Confused and angry
For you Liberals on this thread: You keep harping on the meme that we should not lump all Muslims as our enemies. That we should court 'moderate Muslims' in our GWOT.

Then, with the old, do as I say, not as I do, you support making some sort of moral judgement and condemnation by our government calculated to anger and undermine the support we have from said 'moderate Muslim' country. That's right, Turkey is a moderate, secular (as opposed to a caliphate) democracy in the Middle East.

Not only do they support us in the GWOT by their moderate society, but they take an active role by providing THEIR base for our use as a direct supply line to OUR men and women fighting in Iraq.

To call Pelosi et al. misguided or naive is to give them a pass for their calculated and dispicable and traitorous actions that will endanger our troops.

No 'moral high-ground' can justify that.

third, fourth, and fifth generation of
I live in an area that is filled with Armenians. There must be more of them here than there are in Armenia. Now it’s OK with me that they have memories and history books, but if they have been here for nearly a hundred years, and this is the third, fourth, and fifth generation of Armenians, why are they still Armenian, and not Americans?

Many of them that I talk to were born in Armenia, and have moved here in recent years, nothing to do with history. They weren't even born then.

If they are so proud to be Armenians, why didn’t they stay there, or even more, if they no longer were in a land called Armenia, why didn’t they assimilate with the culture they found themselves in?

Too many people want to live in the USA, obeying all the tenets of their previous culture that they left. If you left, why bring it along? If you had nothing worth dieing for, what’s makes you so sure you have something worth living for.

This is like saying that I am responsible for the fact that Demo Edwards’, the criminal lawyer (not a lawyer who represented criminals, he is a criminal as a lawyer) family owned slaves a couple of hundred years ago. Not my fault, and not my fight.

Remember, a country has two things, and two things only — a border and a culture, if you violate either, out you go.

American Genocide Against Blacks
For years the very same House members have refused to condemn the extermination of 40-50 million babies-more than half being black-since Roe v Wade. The reason for the disproportionately large number of black babies exterminated is Planned Parenthood's Project Negro.

Many if not all these House members actually defend and support this genocide against blacks.

This Congress is one reason the US has sunk lower than Nazi Germany.

It's all ethnic politics
You people who think this is the result of a vast anti-war plot are giving the Democrats too much credit. The largest Armenian community in the US is in California. Pelosi owes them and she's delivering on their big issue. This sort of thing happens all the time. Schools in New York state are required to teach that the Irish potato famine was genocide. Certain ethnic groups have a lot of influence in key states and they get what they want, regardless of the larger consequences. Unfortunately, Turkey, unlike Britain, is very sensitive on this issue.

By the way I do believe they set out to exterminate the Armenians and should own up to it. However, right now good relations with the Turks is very important.

sjpatejak
Actually, pandering to her voting block over the obvious harm to our troops that is likely to result from p'ssing off Turkey is even more dispicable.

Yep, she really supports the troops. GAG ME!

Yes, krystalbird
That was irony.


Savage99
Nobody's talking about reparations. At all. Anywhere in the Armenian community.


Makes you say HMMMMMMM
Just as our Generals in Iraq send out a report that Al Qaida has been severely crippled, and were on the verge of defeat...Nancy Poloci and followers suddenly decide that they must have this resolution. With our government begging them not to, that it might cause an important supply line to our troops may be cut off,they say "Turkey needs us more than we need them." And proceed with this.
This is their way of insuring our defeat. That is their goal.If one thing doesn't work, they will try something else.

Patrick, take it from this Armenian
You're a moron.

You must live on a flat Earth, too.

You, and other history-deniers, are exactly why pogroms, Genocides, and Holocausts can continue in our world. You and your ilk are the kind of guys who put on the white sheets, and deny slavery.

Frankly, you disgust me.

I scrape stuff like you off the bottom of my shoe.




FROG
If your friend is not with us now and was indeed humble and honest, and the victim of genocide, then he can indeed seek justice from the Almighty God. And woe to the guilty. The same goes for all the others.

But my experience has been otherwise than yours. It started one April about 40 years ago when I read a letter in my hometown newspaper from an Armenian who demanded that the US launch a deliberate pre-emptive nuclear strike on Turkey. The reason: the "Armenian Genocide". The writer was openly advocating the annihilation of Turkey with atomic weapons over an event that even then was already more than 50 years in the past. That bespeaks a person who is neither humble nor honest. Nor, I might add, an American.

I researched the "Armenian genocide" and found that there is no credible evidence that it ever happened. That many people died there is no question. But millions of people have died in wars without it being genocide. 60 million died in World War II alone. As I've mentioned before, Sherman's march through Georgia would qualify as genocide, too, following Armenian logic.

Ever since, I have been cautious and watchful about the use of "Armenian genocide" ideology to make enemies between the US and Turkey using the "let's you and him fight" ploy. And now they're succeeding in poisoning relations between the US and Turkey.

Old News
I heard on Laura Ingraham's show this morning that the Pelosi gang after being barraged with negative feedback has backed off. Nice try Nancy, but you will have to find another way to deny our troops supplies.

Disbelief, email me at barrym@tds.net

BrianR
I see that when I called you on your bogus Goebbels / Hitler quote, that you were unable to prove the quote was ever made.

And THAT would be sufficient to prove that you are a moron, but for your new admission that you are Armenian, which you didn't disclose before. Rather than viewing you as a hapless sucker, it's now pretty clear what game you're playing.

Morons don't have culpability; liars like yourself do. So I guess I can't call you a moron in return.

Another lie from BrianR at 2:11 pm
BrianR's latest lie:

-
Nobody's talking about reparations. At all. Anywhere in the Armenian community.
-

The truth:

“There must be recognition, there must be restitution, there must be reparations for the Armenian Genocide.” -- Congressional Armenian Caucus Co-Chairman Rep. Frank Pallone (D-NJ)

source:

"PALLONE AND SCHUMER CALL FOR JUSTICE FOR ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AT TIME SQUARE RALLY"
Armenian National Committee of America
http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid= 758

Murtha: Armenian Genocide Vote to Fail
Thank God!

It looks like common sense may finally prevail after all:

Murtha: Armenian Genocide Vote to Fail
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SB5ID00&show_arti cle=1

Yeah, Patrick, you caught us!
Man, you're just too bright for me!

That million folks marched out into the desert to die?

They're really hiding out at DisneyWorld, scarfing down lahmejune and baklava, laughing at the silly Americans!

I don't know how we thought we'd get away with it, with such bright guys like you, hot on the scent.

And that fake Goebbels quote? You're right. It was a fabrication. Shirer and the Armenian community conspired to have him put it in his book "The Rise and Fall of the Thord Reich".

Busted again!


You frikkin' moron.


Jeez..... now I've gotta go find another curb so I can scrape my shoe again.




BTW, Patrick
Evidently you're illiterate, on top of everything else, becausae in my first post waaaaaay up at the top of the thread, the first thing I write is that I'm half Armenian.


Isn't it time for your sheet-fitting, Nazi-Boy?

What is a "Thord"?
BrianR really needs a proofreader before he publishes more detritus.

I remember when Shirer came out with his book - about 20 years AFTER WWII, I think. I don't remember him mentioning the phony Armenian quote, but if he did, it should be removed. I'm certainly not going to make BrianR happy by uselessly roaming through that more than 1,000 page tome in search of it.

There are thousands of fictitious quotes of various kinds wandering around. Too bad if Shirer got taken in by one.

Poor BrianR is unable to substantiate anything using facts, but must resort to the most reprehensible ad hom namecalling. Then again, that's typical for BrianR.

Yeas, Patrick
More history-denial on the part of racist dips**ts like you.

The rest of the Klan's waiting for you, so they can start the rally. Better hustle up, boy.


Patrick ...
Yes, death is a consequence of war. However Genocide is the systematic elimination of a particular group of people. Slaughtering up 75% of of a particular ethnic group does not sound to me like anyone was just trying to win a war.

As for credible evidence? There is none better than that of an eyewitness who is trustworthy. My wife's grandfather was not angry and harbored no malice. He only wanted the world to recognize the atrocities that he, his family, and his fellow Armenians endured. Recognition, he hoped, would help prevent other people groups from experiencing what he had.

I am in agreement about those who come to this country and don't assimilate. My paternal grandparents came from Czechoslovakia and Denmark and American citizenship was badge of honor they proudly wore. I grew up in So Cal and new many families from other parts of the world. From Armenians, to Mexicans, Philipinos, and Samoans, most were honored to call themselves Americans and thankful they were here.

The actual Shirer quote
can be found at:

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/articles/article10.h tml

Note that it doesn't support in any way the bogus "Armenian genocide" quote supposedly uttered by Hitler as propagated by BrianR, who apparently has now switched from claiming Goebbels said it, to claiming that Hitler said it.

Another BrianR fabrication exposed!

What Price for Hubris in Turkey?
The resolution should've been passed in Congress in 2000. It should've been passed at the end of World War I. It should've been passed every year since.

Turkey should've owned up to the Armenian genocide and made it a non-issue. The problem is that Turkey continues to deny their history. Were Turkey merely to recognize the facts of the Armenian genocide, even without admitting responsibility, then there would be no US resolution needed, now or ever.

Grow up Turkey.

LOL, Patrick!
You and your idiotic links! Hell, I can find all the links you want proclaiming the Earth is flat, too!

All you do is link to sites of your fellow idiotic and racist deniers. You're worse than pathetic, you clown.

Get the actual book, you frikkin moron. A book is a compilation of sheets of paper called "pages" that have printing on them that form words.

Now you'll know how to recognize one, as I'm sure it'll be a brand new experience for you.



FROG
It's too bad I never had the opportunity to meet your grandfather. I'm not doubting that he suffered mightily. And his motives in trying to prevent genocide are praiseworthy.

But the problem in my mind has always been how to keep the BrianR's of this world from exploiting human tragedies in order to produce more human suffering by turning one group of people against another group of people. He is precisely the sort of representative that the Armenian community could easily live without - yet it appears that he is the one who is actually representative.

And the prospect that the views of such a one might actually prevail should scare each and every decent American.

Here you go, Pat
You like links, you racist loser? Here are links, every single one of them from mainstream established organizations, not those racist extremist nutjobs you keep posting.



http://debatableland.typepad.com/the_debatable_land/2007/10 /who-remembers-t.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

http://www.agitprop.org.au/stopnato/19991013war.htm

http://www.jmu.edu/evision/archive/volume3/essays/Ott.html

http://facinghistorycampus.org/Campus/reslib.nsf/searchspec ial/61B60A0DC1615D3C85257181006C4509?Opendocument


Hitler would have LOVED you.


http://urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=7312


LOL, Patrick!
What would you know about "decent Americans"?


That was worth the price of admission all by itself!

BHL: WHAT? "The refusal understand the
importance of this resolution on the genocide smacks of Chamberlain's appeasement and "peace in our time"."

First of all, I'm not sure how to quote that since it should be "peace in our time." (The period goes INSIDE the quotation mark.)

Second of all, what IS their POINT?

And third, why NOW?


One of the dumbest resolutions the dumb dems have ever tried to pass.



Geeze, no wonder this dumbo dembo Congress has a DIAPPROVAL RATING of 89%. The aggregate IQ of the dumbo dems in Congress can't possibly be over 65!


Man, are we in deep trouble or what!!!!!










Actually, Anne, here's the thing
Bush himself has been promising for years to do this. Of course, we're not Mexican, so no surprise he's never acted on that promise.

But the bottom line is that whether or not one agrees with it, it's an internal order of US business, a resolution recognizing the Genocide, that has no impact on nor require action by Turkey. It's no different from Turkey taking the official positon -- which they do -- that the Genocide never happened. That doesn't require any action by us, it's simply a statement of their official position that it never happened.

So, by capitulating to THEIR demands, we are in fact doing what they accuse US of: letting our internal politics be determined by THEM.

If they're getting their knickers so tied up in a knot, maybe we should be, too.



If not now, when?
"At a less volatile moment one can imagine Congress passing the nonbinding resolution....But find the less volatile moment."

When? Turkey has been a reliable U.S. ally and will continue to be into the foreseeable future. The U.S. didn't condemn the Armenian genocide during the Cold War either, because since 1947 we needed Turkey as an ally against the Soviet Communist bloc. Then during the Clinton Administration, we needed Turkey to help with the enforcement of the no-fly zones on Iraq. And now we need Turkey yet again for support on the Iraq War. So we just never seem to find a good time to face up to the historical reality.

I don't know if we'll ever reach a point when we can tell Turkey that their ancestors committed genocide without risking the loss of Turkey as an ally.

The Turks have to be willing to meet us halfway on this. The Germans came to terms with the atrocities they committed during World War II, and the Japanese have started doing the same; and those were more recent than the Armenian genocide. It's Turkey's fault that their Constitution actually makes it illegal to "spread anti-Turkish sentiment," quite a flaw in a nation that claims to be democratic. It would be as if the German constitution made it illegal to acknowledge that the Holocaust of the Jews ever took place.

SteveL
What is this all-pervasive attitude that somebody has to say 'I'm sorry' or 'confess' their failures. In this case, the Ottoman empire is long gone...why is it so important for the Turks to take responsibility for what didn't happen on their watch?

What good will come of it?

How will saying mea culpa prevent any future genocides?

The Turks don't "have to be willing to meet us halfway on this' or anything else!

This is just beyond stupid. Beyond our business. Beyond effective. And, certainly, harmful to our alliance with the Turks.

All of you who think this is important enough to undermine the support we get from Turkey (that DIRECTLY effects our TROOPS in Iraq) are just being unrealistic (at best) and willfully stupid (at least).

I would have more respect for the Congress if they were taking on the Genocide currently happening in Darfur. But, of course, that wouldnt' have the side 'benefit' of harming our troops and undermining the war effort.

I'm with SteveL on this
Mrs Paddy, as I wrote in my post just above Steve's, there's nothing in this resolution that requires Turkey to do anything other than keep their noses out of OUR business. This is simply a resolution that recognizes that the Genocide took place -- which it did, and which Turkey continues to deny.

By your logic, since the Nazis are gone, the current German government can now deny the Holocaust took place, and everything would still be just hunky-dory.


While we're at it
Wht don't ALL countries just rewrite history to make themselves look better?

We can deny slavery ever existed in this country, or that the Indians suffered many broken treaties.

The UK can deny that they ever maintained the Raj.

France can deny the Reign of Terror. And on and on and on.

BrianR
I think Patric is a Turk, how else you will explain the rabid refusal to admit that actual genocide did happen, and there are numerous facts in history.
Patric is no better then Ahmadinejad

Yeah, sashal
He was amazing. Good comparison.

You know, whether or not this resolution passes, that's a poltical question, and will be resolved one way or another.

But I'll be damned if I'll stand by and allow someone to actually deny it ever happened and get away with it.

As you said, he EXACTLY typifies the Turk position.

Armenia Genocide
When will we learn that dealing with countries that do not address their past are not true friends to America. American foreign policy supported the Turkish Government helped them in many ways and now they hold us hostage.

We supported freedom fighters in Afghanistan and they turned against us. Country after country ends up asking us to get out unless we keep pouring money into their coffers. We liberated Iraqi people from a despot and now they not only kill their own but also our own soldiers.

Most Armenians want Turkey to admit to he genocide, nothing more. If the Turkish gov't was so nice let them open the borders between Armenia and Turkey. Let them allow Armenians in Turkey speak out freely without being killed.

America in the end will pay for ignoring genocide, past, present and future.

No "Armenian Genocide"

Poor BrianR and Sasha.

They lost the argument about the supposed "Armenian Genocide" and now they've lost their House resolution as well. Simply put, both BrianR and Sasha are losers, both on this page and in the halls of Congress.

I specifically identified several lies that were being promoted here by BrianR including his phony Goebbels/Hitler "quote".

It's important to confront serial liars like BrianR so that no one else gets fooled by them.

Hey Patrick
You cowardly POS.

I've seen your type a million times. I kicked your racist but all over the floor, you went crying off to your mama, and then like the brain-dead a-hole you are, come back after the column drops off the home page, figuring you can get in some "last word" and get away with it.

No sale, Nazi-boy. You're still a racist sheet-wearing brain-dead loser, your butt was kicked but good, and you ran off like the yellow-bellied coward you are.

BTW, schmuck
Now that it is off the home page, you can go ahead and talk to yourself all you want, since no one will be paying attention to this column anymore.

Including me. Talking with you makes me feel like some of your filth may have rubbed off on me.

I need to go take another shower.

KICKED my butt?
It's more like "kissed" my butt.

You lost on every single point you raised. More, you were established once again as a public liar.

But for once I do agree with you on one thing - please DO get a shower. Someone as unclean as you needs one. Desperately.

DEMS ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
AMAZING IS IT NOT JUST HOW TIMELY THE JACKASS PARTY CAN STIR UP INCONSQUENTIAL NONSENSE JUST TO AGGRAVATE AND MAINTAIN THEIR AGENDA OF DIVIDE AND CONQUER............. IF BOZO'S AND CLOWNS WERE BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN THE EVERYDAY SCOPE OF LIFE THE NYT AND THE JACKASS PARTY WOULD TAKE UP THEIR CAUSE, THIS MY FINE FOLK IS STICKING UP FOR THE LITLE GUY ACCORDING TO THEIR CREDO AND THOSE LONG PINOCCHIO NOSES ON THEIR FACES ARE JUST THE THING TO GO WITH THOSE PAINTED DOTS ON THE CHEEKS OF THEIR FACES.

PUT THESE IMAGES TOGEATHER WITH THE BRAINS, LOGIC AND COMMONSENSE THEY, THE LEFTIST DEMS, DISPLAY AND IT ALL COMES OUT AS DEVIOUS AND ULTERIOR.

There was a genocide
And there were massive attacks against Greeks. This happened both before and after WWI. There are a lot of eyewitnesses and firsthand accounts. I'm afraid Patrick's attempt to simply deny the genocide through untrustworthy links doesn't change the fact of what happened.

Nor does it change the fact that entire villages of Greeks, most of which had existed for thousands of years in Anatolia, were cleared out or exterminated. In fact, there were instances of entire villages, left without men due to Turkish extermination, committing suicide rather than subject themselves to what the Turks were doing with the women and children of other villages. Famous stories of the women and children leaping off of cliffs.

Much like Turkey denied the events of "Midnight Express," denied that Islam had anything to do with the torture and murder of Christian publishers (they insist it was "extreme nationalism"), etc., Turkey something of a tradition of re-writing history.

And for those who deny the atrocities that were committed in Turkey, I say "Smyrna."

the sinner,

Charles
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