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Tuesday, December 18, 2007
Ashley Herzog :: Townhall.com Columnist
Abstinence isn't the problem
by Ashley Herzog
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The sex-positive crowd is at it again. Energized by the news that the teen pregnancy rate went up three percent in 2005, they’ve gone to work blaming abstinence-only programs in schools. Abstinence programs are ineffective, they say—and they must be de-funded and replaced with contraception-based education.

They might be jumping the gun, since 18- and 19-year-olds accounted for most of the increase. The pregnancy rate among girls age 10 to 17 continued to decline, as it has every year since 1991. Still, there is no doubt that abstinence opponents will use the increase to push its version of sex education in schools.

Parents and educators should think carefully before taking their advice. As a researcher for Dr. Miriam Grossman, who is currently writing her second book about sexual health education, I’ve become familiar with the demands of the abstinence opponents. When it comes to sex ed, they have a very specific agenda in mind—and you can bet it won’t simply inform students about contraception. Instead, they’re itching to implement programs that actively encourage kids to have sex.

Consider the CDC-funded “Programs that Work,” which were introduced to schools a few years ago. Rather than simply teaching students about condoms, these sex ed programs actually required ninth- and tenth-graders to go out and buy them. The curricula included school-sponsored field trips to family planning clinics and drugstores to compare condom brands—preferably with a partner. As the program advised, “Go to the store together. Buy lots of different brands and colors. Plan a special day when you can experiment.” I wonder if they got extra credit for actually using the condoms on school grounds.

Abstinence opponents like to say that they’re not encouraging teens to have sex, they simply want them to be fully informed. Last year, a school-sponsored speaker at Boulder High School in Colorado promptly put an end to that myth. During a panel discussion on teen sexuality, the speaker explained to the students—some as young as 14—that he was “different” from their other teachers because “I am going to encourage you to have sex and encourage you to use drugs appropriately.”

SIECUS, the group that issues guidelines for comprehensive sex ed programs, recommends a list of X-rated Web sites that teens should visit for sexual health information. (You don’t have to take my word on these sites being X-rated; just go to Scarleteen.com or gURL.com and browse through some of the pages.) Needless to say, abstinence is not high on their agenda.

SIECUS also advises students to visit Positive.org, which includes a “Just Say Yes” campaign—creating doubts about their claim that they aren’t actively encouraging sexual activity.

Others are more open about their plans to eliminate any discussion of abstinence from the classroom. According to Cornell law professor Gary Simson, promoting abstinence violates the separation of church and state because “it teaches that this one belief is the only proper one.”

Even if you’re repulsed by this agenda, you’re probably wondering which sex ed approach actually works. The studies are inconclusive. Most have shown that the drop in teen pregnancy rates since the 90s can be attributed to a combination of more teens choosing abstinence and responsible contraceptive use by those who are sexually active. Personally, since ultimate responsibility rests with the parents, I agree with experts who believe they should have a choice between a comprehensive program and an abstinence-only program. In both classrooms, children need to be fully aware that sex at a young age can carry serious consequences—not only physical, but also emotional and moral.

However, there is absolutely no evidence that eliminating all discussion of abstinence and encouraging teens to have sex will benefit anyone. Educators who are thinking about implementing contraception-based education should be cautious when selecting sex-positive groups to design the curriculum—and be wary of their claim that they just want to “teach all the facts.”

A better indication of what they have in mind is the incident at Chlemsford High School in Massachusetts, where the administration invited a sex-positive “AIDS educator” to give a mandatory presentation.

“I can’t believe how many people came here to listen to someone talk about sex, instead of staying home and having it yourself,” the “educator,” Suzi Landophi, told the teens.

Landophi invited students to demonstrate their “orgasm faces” for a camera and to lick condoms with her onstage. When discussing anal sex, she remarked that one would be “in deep sh-t.” Her program included asking a female student to blow up a condom and place it on a male student’s head. According to a lawsuit against the school district, Landophi made “eighteen references to orgasms, six references to male genitals, and eight references to female genitals,” and “used profane, lewd, and lascivious language to describe body parts and excretory functions.”

The next time you hear the sex-positive crowd reciting canards about “science, not values” and “teaching kids the facts,” remember that this is what they’re talking about.

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About The Author
Ashley Herzog is a Townhall columnist and the author of Feminism vs. Women.

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Stop and Think
I have an old friend who taught comprehensive sex education in the Tennessee public schools. She is a registered nurse with a Master's degree in public health. She also served as a Christian missionary abroad for 25 years with her husband, a missionary surgeon, is the mother of four children, and has been devout and active in her church as long as I have known her, which is 56 years. Does she sound like a person who would encourage kids to have sex?

Another townhall article in the last couple of days says that women have abortions to make a political point and that Planned Parenthood buries extracted embryos in the yard behind the clinic.

I am continually amazed that people take seriously some of the nonsense that appears on townhall. It seems that no statement is too far-fetched to be presented as fact to those who apparently will believe anything if it comes from a conservative source.

Lilly Knows People
"I am continually amazed that people take seriously some of the nonsense that appears on townhall. It seems that no statement is too far-fetched to be presented as fact to those who apparently will believe anything if it comes from a conservative source."

Well, Lilly, I would presume then that you have some references that contradict the comments made by these columnists?

Other than, of course, your wonderful friend of 56 years. I'm sure your single data point is quite valid; excepting, maybe, for the "singleness" of it. Anything can be proved if all that was necessary was just the one friend of a friend.

So I'd like to request that you kindly provide us with more comprehensive statistics ... if possible.

Abstinence
Abstinence-only sex education teaches that failure is an accomplishment. What kind of backwards values is that? I mean, no one ever says,"When I grow up, I wanna be a virgin."

And I can tell you that all this abstinence stuff goes out the window by the end of the teen years. I am thirty years old, and EVERY woman my age has had sex. EVERY woman I know who is in their twenties has had sex. Teaching abstinence is teaching people something that they would, at most, practice for a maximum of four to five years.

dbz77
Au contraire. I went to Catholic school and was taught by a large number of women who indeed said *When I grow up, I want to be a virgin.*

Our government here in Kanukistan is running a hard sell campaign to get Grade 8 Girls to have the shot that supposedly will immunize them against some of the more prevalent sexually transmitted diseases. They are NOT selling these shots as such, though; they are claiming that *when you get old, like 40, it will keep you from getting cancer.*

If I had daughters I would be pointing out to them that in fact these shots are not guaranteed to protect thm against anything, and the way to protect themselves against sexually transmitted diseases that could render them sterile as well as infecting all the guys they boink and all the girls those guys boink, is to keep their panties on and shake their heads briskly left, right, left, right, when invited to take them off for the recreation of classmates. I would also take her with me to the drop in shelter and let her see teenaged pregnancy up close and personal. Scared Straight works on many different levels.

How to promote abstinence:
For centuries and beyond, young unmarried couples were NEVER alone together - they had this crazy, archaic tradition of chaperones. Maybe it seems silly, but apparently, they had the formula. Facts of life in our culture - unknown to much of the world before this century - are financially dependent single parent families, rampant and deadly STD's, and a huge increase in teen pregnancies.

And we consider ourselves enlightened?


Does anyone know how much Planned Parenhood makes providing abortions? Think they don't have an agenda to increase their profit margin? And we let them access our children to teach "sex ed". Makes as much sense as letting the fox in the hen house.

dbz, just because...
...EVERY woman you know has had sex, doesn't mean that every woman is incapable of controlling her urges.

Babies, not knowing any better, need diapers because they cannot control their bodily functions. Fortunately, after a few years, children learn when it is appropriate to do these functions. We learn to wait until we can go to a restroom. The sex drive is also an urge that can be controlled. It's what separates us from the animals. To assume that people cannot learn to control their urges is to say that they are no better than animals, who must satisfy their mating urges at every whim.

Just because you and the people you know are incapable of self-control doesn't mean the rest of us are so base.

Naivity
You need to continue working on that degree in journalism, sweety. You obviously have some way to go. No one - NO ONE - has advocated not stressing or encouraging abstinence, even in the most liberal comprehensive sex ed courses as you seem to believe.

The difference between those "sex positive" people who advocate comprehensive sex ed and people like you is that the former are not naive enough to believe that just telling kids not to have sex works.


Concerning responses to certain comment
LeishaC and AudiR10, loved your response to dbz77. You are both so right!!

Give it a rest people!
For 14 consecutive years since 1991, our teen pregnancy rate has declined. Fourteen years of uninterrupted success at combatting a problem that can be as devastating to young lives as nearly any other problem. I would say that is pretty good news and a great track record of success.

For the first time in 2006, we've seen a 3% uptick in the pregnancy rate. And predictably, those on the far left and far right cannot wait to blame each other and reignite the wars between abstinence-only sex education and more conventional education regarding the use of condoms and other methods of birth control.

These two philosophies are not mutually exclusive. They are compatible and complementary. If we want to continue reducing the U.S. rate of teen pregnancy, which is still higher than in many other industrialized nations, we need more of both types of sex education. Neither one will accomplish alone what they can accomplish together.

Ashley, I'm sure you are a very earnest young lady but please unlearn the first rule of TH commentary. A few examples of leftist loons adopting extreme positions does not mean that everyone on the left is that way, just as a few abortion clinic bombers do not mean that every conservative is a homicidal maniac.



Your Body is not your Property
Corinthians 6:19

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians6.h tm


19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own [PROPERTY]?
.

I interpret this with an analogy with those who say they own a piece of property, with a house on it, and they live in BUT in reality they have a mortgage and whoever holds that mortgage title[God] really owns the house[their body].

Thus in reality we are not the Masters of our Body. God owns it. God really owns your body. Think about this a minute. I do not own myself. A profound change in ones thinking would occur if accepted as fact.

If you are of a secular persuasion a lot of your actions do affects others. Your actions are not mutually exclusive but dependent and actively affecting Society some directly and indirectly i.e. abortion, disease carrier(HIV), alcoholism etc.

YOU REALLY DO NOT OWN YOUR BODY.

Abstinence Education
Way to nail it,Ashley. I think it is high time we reference these groups by their true agendas. They are teen sex advocacy groups trying to hide behind a facade of "giving all the information". I too have attended more than one of Planned Parenthood's so-called "comprehensive " sex ed courses and reviewed numerous contraceptive sex ed curricula. They are not only uneccessarily explicit they are also medically inaccurate in that in almost ALL their curricula they put abstinence(in the few times it is even mentioned) and condom use on the same level in offering equal protection. This is dangerous and misleading information for teens. Keep writing and speaking up for your generation, Ashely

Paul
If our body is not our property, then we are nothing more than slaves. That is where that kind of thinking leads.

Furthermore, if our bodies were not our properties, then why is rape wrong? Are you going to tell women that they were not really raped, since it was not their body anyway?

dbz.....
...tis better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

dbz...
...tis better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

LeishaC
I never claimed that women were unable to control their urge to spread their legs,. If they had no such ability, we would not have the problem of adult male virginity.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.social-phobia/br owse_thread/thread/f64b5d385a5ca3dd/575a3a0a02c8a931?hl=en& lnk=st&q=insubject%3Aadult+insubject%3Amale+insubject%3Avir ginity#575a3a0a02c8a931

Furthermore, all the women past their teens that I know of live healthy lives. None of them are suffering from having sex or having had sex. Their sex lives do not interfere with other parts of their lives. And none of them, I repeat, NONE of them, wishes that they were still virgins.

While I can understand why immature teenagers should refrain from having sex, all those reasons become irrelevant once people leave their teens.


LeishaC
I guess Paul should have not opened his mouth.

After all, he wrote that we were nothing more than slaves. I am sure people like Paul would fit right in with the CSA, militarist Japan, Nazi Germany, the USSR, Cuba, China, and North Korea.

Fred
Have you ever wondered why promoters of abstinence never talk about their OWN history of abstinence? Could it be that they would have to reveal that they were considered too pathetic to get any?

Recreational Sex
Sex is now defined in our society as a sort of recreational activity, like playing baseball, football soccer, eating, drinking.

I contend sex is for one primary purpose---creation of another human being.

Ignoring that fact you suffer the consequences, ie unwanted pregnancies, abortion, HIV, STD's, heartbreak, used bodies etc.

My earlier post that "We do not own our very own body" says God owns the mortgage(you) and if you do not make the payments (avoidance of sex outside of marriage) he will foreclose sooner or later as will Society and the probability that Society will foreclose (divorce, disease, heartbreak) before God, our real owner.

You will pay a "dear price" for recreational sex. This is a GIVEN.

dbz
How many people do you know? Certainly you would agree that you don't know everyone. And, are you absolutely sure that no one you do know has sexual regrets? Paul is correct. You may not be a Christian and believe like Paul and I, but your unbelief doesn't change the truth. Paul didn't say we were slaves, you did. The bottom line is, sex within God's plan brings joy and true satifaction. Sex outside God's plan brings unwanted consequences and any satisfaction is an illusion.

I am a teacher and I counsel girls on a daily basis who have been destroyed by poor sexual decisions too early. I regret my own sexual decisions, even though I did wait until 21 to have sex. Perhaps dbz, you should read the book "The Thrill of the Chaste" by Dawn Eden if you are so convinced that your way is the right one.

dbz
why is adult male virginity a problem?

Paul- The Price of Adult Virginity
and what price for becoming an adult virgin?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.social-phobia/br owse_thread/thread/f64b5d385a5ca3dd/575a3a0a02c8a931?hl=en& lnk=st&q=insubject%3Aadult+insubject%3Amale+insubject%3Avir ginity#575a3a0a02c8a931

I can tell you the price. Feelings of shame, rage, resentment, inadequacy, isolation, alienation, despair, depression, and suicide. Being viewed as a failure, a loser, and as less of a man than other men by others. THAT is a price that is too high to pay.

LeishaC
Click here to read messages from adult male virgins.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.social-phobia/br owse_thread/thread/f64b5d385a5ca3dd/575a3a0a02c8a931?hl=en& lnk=st&q=insubject%3Aadult+insubject%3Amale+insubject%3Avir ginity#575a3a0a02c8a931

I wonder what adult male virgins could possibly know about adult male virginity?

Of course, some of them, instead of trying to fix what is wrong with them so that they can get a wife or girlfriend to have sex with, start advocating abstinence in an attempt to make themselves feel better.

Ken and Audi
KEN: you and I think alike. I have two daughters and I'm almost dreading puberty in this day and age. I'm 36 and in my Catholic school, they would show us ABC After School Specials about Drugs, Alcohol and Teen Pregnancy. I guess I was wired NOT to do those things because the very thought of becoming addicted to something, or getting pregnant while still being nothing more than a child frightened me enough NOT to do any of those things.

That's why I also like AUDI's idea of taking his daughter to a shelter with pregnant teens. I think Scaring Straight is a good idea, if nothing else seems to get through their thick skulls.

Now, don't pigeon hole me - I was NOT a virgin when I got married, but neither was I a loose woman who laid it all out for anybody. I was in 2 "committed" adult relationships in my 20s before I met my husband.

That's why I like what KEN said - it's about abstinence, but it's also about "comprehensive" sex education, and that does not mean licking condoms, talking about orgasms, or visiting porn sites. I mean, just plain old straight talk about sex, the consequences of it, and "safe" sex (as in birth control and protecting against STDs), but also about emotional issues, etc.

Part 2 and Paul
The moderate view is the more healthy one, IMHO. I mean, yes, we have urges and we can generally control them. But most adults also know that, based on our own personal sexual drive, not having sex for a while can make you a little, well, horny. And saying prayers AIN'T going to cut it, at least not for the majority of people. If anyone thinks that priests aren't "flogging the bishop" or nuns aren't "taking care of themselves" then they are naive.

Teaching our children about sex in a healthy way means understanding (and remembering) that teens have probably higher sex drives than adults do since they are just hitting puberty, that these things are NEW to them, and then teaching our teens healthy ways to deal with that. For me that would be acknowledging that there's nothing wrong with masturbation and waiting to have sex until you are emotionally capable of handling it and all the consequences that flow from it. If you don't believe in pre-marital sex, you can enforce that belief at home if it's not taught in the school.

But to expect your hormone driven teens to not even masturbate is to deny that they are at all human. Again, it doesn't mean they have to go at it like bunnies, but it does mean that we acknowledge that there are these feelings and healthy, safe ways of dealing with those feelings. Otherwise, you breed nothing but potential psychopaths that wind up sitting atop a clock tower with a sniper rifle picking people off one by one.

Paul - your idea that we only have sex to procreate means that we are nothing more than animals, since only animals have sex to procreate. Human beings also do it as an expression of love.

dbz, that's ridiculous
...all of those feelings run far deeper than whether someone has sex or not. Someone with all of those feelings obviously has more than a few issues. Why can't he first work on finding friends, and then asking a girl out on a date, and not just a chase to lose his virginity?

You can't honestly believe that if one of these adult male virgins has sex, then his life will be all good, can you? Didn't you see the Steve Carell movie? Even he realized his pathetic life was not about sex at all.

All of those feelings you mentioned -- shame, rage, resentment, inadequacy, isolation, alienation, despair, depression, and suicide -- are also symptoms suffered by people who make sexual decisions too early or for the wrong reasons. They also have more issues than just their sex lives.


LeishaC
"Perhaps dbz, you should read the book "The Thrill of the Chaste" by Dawn Eden if you are so convinced that your way is the right one."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.social-phobia/br owse_thread/thread/f64b5d385a5ca3dd/575a3a0a02c8a931?hl=en& lnk=st&q=insubject%3Aadult+insubject%3Amale+insubject%3Avir ginity#575a3a0a02c8a931

The link above will take you to Usenet posts which show just how thrilling chastity is.

LeishaC
"Why can't he first work on finding friends, and then asking a girl out on a date, and not just a chase to lose his virginity?"
Why that particular order?

Not everyone drinks before eating. Sometimes, thirst is stronger than hunger, and so people would drink before eating. Other times, hunger is stronger than thirst, and so they eat before drinking.

For some people, fixing the lack of a sex life is the top priority, for others, fixing the lack of employment is a top priority. For others, fixing cancer is a top priority.

And some people just happen to be very thirsty.

dbz...
...because that's now normal people with healthy personal identities form relationships. First you learn to develop friendships with people of both sexes. Most people learn to do this in childhood. Then, one learns to develop healthy relationships with members of the opposite sex, usually in adolescence or young adulthood. Once a certain level of maturity has been achieved, most people find someone they hope to spend the rest of their lives with, then get married and have fabulous sex. This is the plan that works. Any other plan is most often a recipe for disaster, although I will allow for exceptions that prove the rule.

Sex is not a drive necessary for life, so your hunger/thirst analogy is illogical. Are you perhaps one of these adult male virgins suffering for life because you haven't found an equally pathetic woman to have sex with? If you are miserable now, having sex won't make you happy. What do you expect that having sex, in and of itself, will give you? And what sort of woman do you expect to be a party to this?

ladykrystyna

"Paul - your idea that we only have sex to procreate means that we are nothing more than animals, since only animals have sex to procreate. Human beings also do it as an expression of love."

Animals are not rational, Man is rational. Only the remotest parallels exist i.e. eyes, nose but saying animals copulate only to procreate is just not right as they cannot tell you. A bad analogy--so be it.

Human sex's only purpose is to procreate and it must be open to procreation i.e. no contraceptives.
No greater love exists than this. It does not mean you will definitely have a baby but you must be open to it. It is the ultimate experience of sex. Impede this completely NATURAL act in any way and you necessarily impede the fullest expression of love.

With sex there should be no degrees attached, but if there are, then the degree of love is really lessened accordingly. You want the whole thing or just part. If you want part I say its wrong as its cheating not only society but yourself. A President may have been born. You cheated him/her also to never even having a crack at life. There have been many so called mistakes but parents would never send them back once born. Mother nature will not let you have a baby everytime you have sex. There is plenty of open non fertile space for starved wanting sex of the best kind. Not having sex when you always want it only makes the next time better.


Paul, I disagree...
...to a point. I believe that consensual sex between husband and wife is also designed for their mutual pleasure, not just for procreation. The Bible says that the "marriage bed is undefiled," which means that husbands and wives may give pleasure to each other however they want to. I don't believe God would make sex such a wondrous thing, and expect married couples to abstain from enjoying each other if they don't want to create more children. We can agree to disagree on this, because I understand your point, but I wanted to post my thoughts.

please, no generalizations
For all of you who say we can't control our urges, or need a release, or that abstinence only works for a few years... I was a virgin until I married, at 26. My two sisters are both virgins, at 21 and 25. I have several other close female friends in their early thirties who are unmarried and still virgins, and numerous other friends, male and female, who were virgins until marriage. The common thread between all of us is that we take our Christian faith seriously, and made a committment to live according to certain values - we've all had invitations and opportunities, but had drawn that line for ourselves many years ago.

When you go through self-defense training, the whole point is to practice the actions beforehand so if you're ever in that situation your body knows how to respond - you've already committed in your head to fighting back, so you don't need to make that decision on the spot when adrenaline is rushing and every second counts. Abstinence education is exactly the same - you make the commitment firm well before you're faced with a situation where hormones are raging and it's difficult enough to think, let alone rationally about the consequences of your decision (short term and long term, direct and indirect).

Sex is something that should be treated with great respect, and seen as having tremendous value. Giving it away easily or often certainly does not do this, and instead cheapens the act. I'm so very glad I was able to wait to experience it only with my husband, in the security and sanctity of our marriage.

oh brother...here we go
Well, it's apparent, again, that TH will have someone write about sex ed courses as too sex liberal and assert that they describe abstinence only as all or nothing.
Is there NO middle ground for anyone?
What I've witnessed is that SOME abstinence only programs are ineffective and don't address VERY REAL issues the right way at all. Such as in the case of gay children or how GIRLS are supposed to respond to say, young adult males and the threat of rejection.
Leisha C, in her way, described exactly what happens to gay teens, which puts them in danger in all manner of ways that heterosexuals refuse to address.
I disagree with a too liberal approach to sex ed, and exposing children to graphic images and demonstrations.
I'm still frustrated at the lack of realistic approaches to the NEEDS of teens and the adults who are too fearful or ignorant to do it properly, whether it's their educators or parents or both.
Religious based programs make females and gay children suffer the most, and more liberal education doesn't focus enough on accountability.
And by the looks of the posts on this thread...progress won't come soon enough.
I'm wondering if the guy who knocked up Spears will be charged with a crime...another way adults fail in the protection of their kids.

Amen, KristinJ
I only wish I had had the strength of my convictions at your age. Although I was raised to know that sex outside of marriage was wrong, what nobody told me about was the heartache that it would cause. I spent my 20s and early 30s pursuing every pleasure known to man and wound up lonely and empty. Then, as God began to reclaim my heart, He sent me to the book of Hosea, where I learned that my lifestyle would allow me to "chase after my lovers, but never catch them." I now work with high school girls to equip them to handle situations in which they will find themselves so they are able to choose chastity, like Kristin.

It makes no sense to say on one hand, "Don't have sex," and then on the other hand, to say, "But if you do, use a condom." Kids see the hypocrisy there. What most sex ed programs fail to take into consideration is the emotional component of sex that teens are not ready to handle.

If we would take sex ed as seriously as we did the recent anti-smoking campaign, we might get somewhere. Where kids used to think smoking was cool, most kids now think of it as nasty. That switch was made in just a few years, thanks to anti-smoking zealots, why couldn't good abstinence-based sex ed do the same?

Because adults would also have to clean up their own acts and quit having random sex, and I don't know if that will ever happen.

The real solution
If the idea is to cut down on teen pregnancies then the solution is to start treating Out of Wedlock pregnancy as the STD that it is. How many times has it been said "but it's HIS responsibility to use a condom". Well, that excuse doesn't work for AIDS, it doesn't work for Herpes, it shouldn't work for pregnancy.

A long time ago, I remember going to cross the street. The light was with me and 'right' was on my side. My grandmother grabbed the back of my coat and stopped me because i hadn't looked both ways first. But I protested that *I* had the light. Then she explained what it meant to be Dead Right.

If young girls are taught to treat Out of Wedlock pregnancy like a STD that will solve most of the problem.

And that shelter tour sounds like a great idea.

KristinJ
"
For all of you who say we can't control our urges, or need a release, or that abstinence only works for a few years... I was a virgin until I married, at 26. My two sisters are both virgins, at 21 and 25. I have several other close female friends in their early thirties who are unmarried and still virgins, and numerous other friends, male and female, who were virgins until marriage. The common thread between all of us is that we take our Christian faith seriously, and made a committment to live according to certain values - we've all had invitations and opportunities, but had drawn that line for ourselves many years ago. "
I am sure that you fit right in. And I can understand your friend's motivations to fit in.

For ME to fit in with those around me, I have to do things differently. For me, being labeled by others an outcast, a weirdo, a failure, a loser, less of a man than other men is an unacceptable price.

dbz77 wrote:
"And I can tell you that all this abstinence stuff goes out the window by the end of the teen years. I am thirty years old, and EVERY woman my age has had sex. EVERY woman I know who is in their twenties has had sex."

You are "projecting". You don't have a clue how many there are that think enough of their future husbands to remain pure. It's the same for guys. Your attitde apparently is "everybody's doing it". That's where you're wrong.

The Social Conservative View of Sex...
LeishaC writes: "If we would take sex ed as seriously as we did the recent anti-smoking campaign, we might get somewhere. Where kids used to think smoking was cool, most kids now think of it as nasty. That switch was made in just a few years, thanks to anti-smoking zealots, why couldn't good abstinence-based sex ed do the same? Because adults would also have to clean up their own acts and quit having random sex, and I don't know if that will ever happen."

I think your problem is that you all think sex is "nasty." I suppose that encourages you all to remain virgins as adults, but normal (i.e. not born-again)adults will find you freaks. If I met a virgin man my age, I would run, run, run!

Mary C.

Paul: I have never suffered from your "consequences" - pregnancies, HIV, STD's - because as a teenager I educated myself about birth control and STD prevention, all long before I engaged in sex. Not all teenagers would have taken the initiative I did, so comprehensive birth control education is good.

No more dangerous trait
"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility."

- Teddy Roosevelt, Abilene, KS, May 2, 1903

Dbz77
Where I am, everyone else HAS done it.

Those other people my age who keep themselves pure for their husbands, no doubt because it is a custom and tradition where they are from, I never met them.

One of MY commitments is to avoid being labeled by those I know, by those people whom I respect, as a failure, a loser, a weirdo, a freak, less of a man than other men. And I know the things I must do to avoid such a label.

dbz (one of) 77 (sheep)
I'm teaching my son that what others think about you is not nearly as important as being in the right place/at the right time/doing what you're supposed to be doing. If everyone else is doing something wrong and they make fun of you for not doing it; it's o.k. for you not to go along with the crowd.

That's called leadership. Trust me, one day the very people who are making fun of you will likely be employed by you.

dbz77 is obviously a product of the self-esteem-culture promoted in the government school system and in the MTV/VH1 culture. "Being right is not nearly as important as being liked." dbz77 is obviously a very immature and insecure young man.

I pity him; I pity his parents; I pity anyone who is in his circle of acquaintance. He is probably very "high maintenence" on an emotional level.


Tweaky
And what determines right, except public opinion?

hi kristenj
Again, that's fine if you're a heterosexual, that's also fine if you meet someone who isn't commitment shy or impatient.
You're only describing half the equation of possibility for a portion of the human population.
I don't totally disagree with you. But legal marriage ISN'T an option for gay children. They have no hope of it, except in one state here or another country.
And some young people are confronted over a lifetime with other adults who aren't mature enough for marriage EVER.
You were VERY lucky. Sure, there is SOME personal skill involved in caring for yourself as an individual, but until the option of marriage is possible for gay children with another gay person, or the trends change and people REALLY care about the proper steps and time it all takes to find the right person, what you say will only work about the percentage of times it actually does now anyway.

oh
oh, and before anyone takes my head about the issue of gay sexuality and gay teens and the option of marrying.
Answer me this: how badly would you want your hetero child to marry a gay person?
I'm so sure you want your son to marry a lesbian, or daughter to marry a gay man.
A jolt of sex with a straight person does NOT cure homosexuality.
That fact hopefully will make you understand that gay people ARE meant for each other and there are plenty of straight folks to go around for each other and make babies without gay people in the mix sleeping with you if only to get married.
Not a good idea...really, not a good a idea.
But the usual organizations sure push that homosexuality can be cured or changed and that YOUR kids are eligible for the job to do it.

So, it's really impossible and frankly stupid to keep gay people from each other and gay children lonely and ignorant so that they end up on the wrong end of unnecessary problems because so many heteros don't get that being gay or straight is the same. Can't and shouldn't be messed with.

hi tweaky
I can't argue with you either. I remember those times from teenhood to well into adulthood, those that tried to get me to experiment with drugs. I don't, never will nor even tried any of it.
I knew what the ramifications were and didn't trust people who were so interested in me getting high.
Well, why and for what purpose? And I've noticed that the very people who DO use, even casually...are insufferably IMMATURE. Their intolerance for life's bumps and bruises and inconveniences is glaring.
I needed all my faculty and intelligence and maturity to grow with me, as do most people.
And none of it can withstand damage for such a stupid reason.
Interesting posts, but I can't get with personal attacks on anyone.
Good luck to everyone, especially if you're mentoring or rearing teens.

Stupid things I read.....
....on this thread:

"Our government here in Kanukistan is running a hard sell campaign to get Grade 8 Girls to have the shot that supposedly will immunize them against some of the more prevalent sexually transmitted diseases."

I had no idea such a miracle shot existed. And you think this is a BAD thing?

"Babies, not knowing any better, need diapers because they cannot control their bodily functions. Fortunately, after a few years, children learn when it is appropriate to do these functions. We learn to wait until we can go to a restroom."

Do babies STOP doing these instinctual bodily functions until they learn to control them?

"...in reality we are not the Masters of our Body. God owns it. God really owns your body. Think about this a minute. I do not own myself. A profound change in ones thinking would occur if accepted as fact."

"YOU REALLY DO NOT OWN YOUR BODY."

Where do I begin with this tripe? This comment is the same as Huckabee claiming "You can't have religion with freedom. Just as you can not have freedom without religion." I don't call having to live my life according to someone else's rules(especially a "divine creator" who "owns" my body) being free. I call that being a slave.

I could go on, but reading such idiocy has given me a headache.

dbzz77
I won't slam you. But since you put the question out there in this last post, I'll try and answer it.
Albert Einstein once said that the problems of our day can't be solved by the consciousness that created them.
For example, racism, sexism, anti Semitism and homophobia HAVE created exponential problems for society at large, not just the citizens on the wrong end of those social restrictions.
Public opinion, majority opinion or religious opinion haven't always been right.
What should help us come to ethical and moral conclusions are RESULTS. The results of equality, the results of fair consideration under the law have had good results, while arbitrary discrimination based on prejudice and animus has not.
At the Constitution and Bill of Rights foundation is a variation on treating a person the way you'd want to be treated. Which should satisfy the most religious among us because it IS a fundamental directive for them also.
There are distinct results from a person assaulting or betraying another, whereas there are not simply because of a person's gender, sexual orientation or color.
At any rate, the mistakes of the past will be repeated because of fear based political tactics, not information based ones.
Abortion, and other gender specific issues tend to be higly sensitive and emotional ones, and the majority of the public WILL react with emotion, if not logic.
And logical conclusions based on results is what should carry the day. Or at least, that's what should be aimed for.

former rep...never a dem
Hello...yes, there IS a vaccination against HPV, aka the human papilloma virus. It's a sexually transmitted disease that has remarkable dormancy, but it also causes cervical cancer.
This vaccination is most effective when administered to girls who are premenstrual. Which is about ten to twelve years old.
However, there was considerable hysteria around it's adminstration and the common belief seemed to be a gateway to early sexual activity.
Which is really, REALLY ridiculous. This is about PREPARING a girl's body to protect itself, which is what ALL vaccinations are about.
But since this country is loopy about sex anyway, such misinformation from mostly religious, abstinance only advocates is typical.
BTW, this vaccine was discovered because of all the research around HIV. If there had been no interest in the cure or treatment of AIDS, such a miracle might have taken much longer to know.
Girls who will grow into sexually active young women WILL have their ability to bear children protected. Yeah, and why would that be a problem?!

du
Apparently, it is a problem for sexually active young women to keep their ability to have children protected, because some people, who are very bitter and very angry about their lack of a sex life, pretend that sex is evil in a futile attempt to make themselves feel better. But these young women having sex and having successful lives, breaks the illusion of abstinence advocates.

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