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Tuesday, October 14, 2008
Armstrong Williams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Obama vs. Economics 101
by Armstrong Williams
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Every four years or so, American voters go to the polls to choose political leaders who enact public policies that shape and direct our nation’s economy. Yet, the vast majority of Americans lack an analytical framework required to adequately evaluate the true impact that these policy decisions will have. While Americans may understand how much money they will get up front from tax relief or government assistance, the broader impact of the policies come from the way they influence certain types of economic behavior in the future.

These secondary effects will have a much more fundamental impact on jobs, income and wealth creation than the immediate impact of the policies promised by politicians. To clarify things, perhaps we should look at a few of these proposed policies from the prospective of a student in Economics 101.

Taxing the Rich is a Free Ride for Middle Class Taxpayers

Senator Obama has promised voters that the government can raise money for social programs by increasing taxes on the rich. He defines rich as anyone making over $250,000 per year. While a person earning that amount does make more than 95 percent of other income earners, taxing them disproportionately might not necessarily create a larger government pot. Consider, for example, that most of the people in the top income class own businesses and derive their income from the sale of goods and services at a profit. If the Government decides to tax their profits at a higher rate, they will earn less income, and there will be less incentive for them to g o into business.

Creating disincentives for business means that fewer businesses will hire employees, making jobs scarcer and reducing income among those who are able to find work. Fewer people working means people will spend less money, resulting in a decrease in taxes collected on the consumption of goods and services. Furthermore, people who earn less will save less, meaning less money available to financial institutions to fund middle-class investments like home purchases and business investments in capital used to expand companies and create more jobs.

Trade Restrictions to Keep Jobs in America

Renegotiating Nafta and other trade treaties or giving tax breaks to businesses that do not “ship” jobs abroad may appear to keep jobs in the US. However trade restrictions do not occur in a vacuum. Our trading partners respond/retaliate when we raise or lower trade restrictions. When our in trading partners impose additional trade barriers to US imports, this reduces US exports. This results in lost US jobs. Trade restrictions also increase the price consumers pay for goods made in the US that could have been imported at a lower price from our trading partners abroad. There is universally accepted concept in economics called comparative advantage, which says that every country can produce some goods relatively more efficiently than others and that both sides benefit from free trade. Free trade therefore is a “win-win” for all trading partners. It is supported empirically and historically. I hope we do not have to relearn the lessons of the damage created by trade barriers imposed during the Great Depression.

Government Created Jobs Will Put America Back To Work

When politicians tell voters that the government will create jobs through infrastructure programs they do not realize that these programs may crowd out jobs in the private sector. The money for these infrastructure projects has to come from somewhere to pay for those government jobs. When the government raises taxes to pay for “new” government-sponsored jobs it takes that money from private businesses or consumers, thus reducing jobs in the private sector. Thus, usually, government spending does not result in a net increase in total jobs in the economy. Maintaining and upgrading our decaying infrastructure is important as an investment in our economy. It should not be a jobs creation program but an investment program.

As most of us know, the government is not noted for its efficient use of taxpayer money. Compare the US Post Office to Federal Express and UPS. Look at the $500 toilet seats purchased by the Pentagon and the infamous Alaskan bridge to nowhere. Construction projects usually cost more than in the private sector because of pork barrel requirements such as living wage requirements, union requirements, complex bidding procedures and the latest lobbyists’ pet requirement. Under the best of circumstances, the government does not spend money as efficiently as the private sector or consumers. Consequently, it is generally more efficient to let consumers and private businesses spend their hard earned money where they see fit rather than have the government spend it for them.

Universal Health Care Should Be a Government Responsibility

No matter what kind of health care program we have, so called “universal coverage” won’t really happen. Universal coverage actually means in practice that the government rations health care. Under this system, those who need it most often can’t get enough of it, and those who need it least get too much.

Currently, health care constitutes 15 percent of our GDP, and its’ growth outpaces income. Other developed economies with so-called universal health coverage spend far less. Health care costs amount to about 10 percent of GDP in Canada and Germany, and 8 percent in the UK. What is it that these countries consistently do that we don’t? Simply put, they r ation health care. They do not call it rationing; but patients experience long waiting times in order to receive certain medical treatments, and some are declared ineligible for certain medical procedures.

That may not sound attractive but we all face this reality in one way or another. That means your 80 year old father with a heart condition will not receive life saving bypass surgery in the UK unless he can pay the full cost out of pocket. He would receive it in the US under most insurance plans currently in place. This begs the question of whether having marginal health insurance for everyone is worth signing over to the government the right to say who lives and who dies. In other words who gets to play God almighty with an individual's life or death crisis?

Furthermore, and perhaps more compellingly, creating a “single-payer” system such as a government-administered health care system may create, in effect, a regulated monopoly, much like, for example, the old AT&T telephone monopoly. Under the old AT&T system, the government permitted AT&T to maintain their monopoly control over the telephone system. Anyone over thirty-five can remember a time when it took almost a month to get phone service installed, and long distance calls cost a fortune. Now that the monopoly system has been dismantled, long distance phone calls are practically free, and your phone gets turned on the minute you purchase the service. What a difference competition made in terms of fostering innovation and consumer choice. Without competition in the telecommunications industry, we would not have the single greatest driver of global wealth in the world today – the Internet.

These are only an example of the possible results of some of the policies that have been proposed by Senator Obama viewed through the lens of economics. Of course, you will find economists who disagree with this analysis, and you may even consider the results of these policies as described to be a positive. But just the same, it’s important to consider the lasting effects of the choice you’re making before checking the ballot box next month.

Conclusion

These are some of the policies that have been proposed by Obama. The economic analysis of these policies does not mean that they are bad. It shows that these policies have economic impacts beyond the first order conditions. For example, higher taxes on the rich may reduce overall income, tax revenue and jobs but may also reduce the income gap between the rich and the poor. If you believe that the benefit of the reduction of the income gap outweighs the other consequences, then you may be in favor of that policy. That weighing of income inequality has been made by a number of societies during our life time –Soviet Union, China, Eastern Europe and Cuba. These societies, with the exception of Cuba, decided in the end, that the cost of income equality did not outweigh the benefits of a capitalist economy.

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About The Author
Armstrong Williams is a widely-syndicated columnist, CEO of the Graham Williams Group, and hosts the Armstrong Williams Show. He is the author of Beyond Blame.
 
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Very good
explanation...and the conclusion is obvious...do we want a more "equal" society at the cost of our freedom? After spending time in China on a mission trip, my answer is no. I saw very little in the way of "hope" on the faces of the people, and the collapse of socialism demonstrates that the loss of those freedoms will only be tolerated for so long.

Oops...sorry
for the double post!

There's no such thing as a free lunch
my 15 year old took Economics 101 from the Duke University TIP and it changed his political outlook. He has a far better understanding of the real world and is less susceptible to the utopian promises of the feel-good left than I was at his age.

At first he found some of the concepts difficult, until he related them to the primary principals of economics:

(1) look to the long term, not just immediate impact; and

(2) There's no such thing as a free lunch

Instead of trying to outbid Obama's government goodies, McCain needs to return to this fundamental message. Despite mainstream media, Hollywood and academic propaganda to the contrary, a majority of Americans understand this

America - let's enjoy it while it lasts.
Excellent article. Is there any way to force-feed it into the thinking of our not-so-smart "elites" that are ruining this country?

Say what?!
Bbbbbbut Obama promises that all that Dr. Williams said isn't so, and we all know that Barak knows best. We know that Dr. Williams is writing about the realities of economics and what produces jobs and prosperity, but in the long run, I won't feel good. Think about our self-esteem, Dr. Williams!

Does this mean that we won't get all the free stuff Barak is promising? We want free stuff, and that's all that matters.


Always ask, and then what happens?
This is eerily similar to Dr. Sowell's "Thinking Beyond Stage One", the subtitle of "Applied Economics", and should be required reading for anyone in politics, as well an anyone that votes!

Forget About It
Nearly 40% of U.S. households currently pay no Federal income tax, and around half that many get cash credits back from the IRS. If Obama's policies go into place we will be over 50%, at which point the majority will happily skate along on its free ride until the results that Williams cites above - economic contraction, job losses, etc., start to kick in.

Obama has been very clear that his economic policies are about fairness, not maximizing Federal revenue (see response to ABC debate question about the effects of raising capital gains rates). Most people don't understand the economic impact of his proposals or don't care to. I'd love to think that Williams' message will reach the masses, but at this point he's preaching to the choir.

Rectal-Cranial-Inversion
This is the affliction that makes liberals believe that Corporations create poverty, and Government creates Wealth.

Here's a simple challenge for our lib friends.

Please name ONE country that has ever Taxed it's way to prosperity.

We'll wait with bated breath as you furiously search wikipedia for an answer.


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bfred
Correct. Not only will the masses not hear this message, they do not wish to hear it. There is also no guarantee that they would believe or understand it either. Obama is counting on a lot of people that are stupid or uninformed. It is quite funny considering that a lot of his supporters consider themselves intelligent. I wonder why that is?

Health care rationing
Contrary to Prof. Sowell, health care is rationed whether or not any government is involved. The sheer fact that there are medical problems and conditions that are not covered by a health insurance plan means that some types of treatment are being rationed, and not by governnment. The whole concept of managed care limits access to some forms of health care to control costs--in other words, it is an exercise in rationing. The health care your physician might believe is necessary is rationed as well. Have any of you folks heard of "utilization review?" An employee without medical training sits in front of a computer and, when your doctor contacts the insurance carrier to see if it will cover some treatment or diagnostic modality, queries the computer. Out comes the fact that no, the insurance policy in question, doesn't cover that. Rationing, once again.

What's so ironic is that most Americans don't really mind rationing at all--they accept it without complaint when it is done by the private sector every day. But conservatives know they can yell "rationing!" and as long as they make it a part of some nasty government scheme, the faithful will respond with a knee-jerk.

gestell
You are not quite right about rationing. You can still pay cash, get a loan, ect.. And I have one question to anbody who will answer. How do we pay for it. Even if you taxed every worker in this country at a "Progresive rate", there would not be enough money to pay all the entitlements Obama is promising, let alone all the ones that are all ready there. And last where in the constitution does it allow the Fed. Gov. to run health care.
Kirk

Poop
Okay i'm still young and am going to vote for the first time so i just want some answers. first of all if cutting taxes on the wealthy to 30% was so successful then why (in real dollars) have we lost revenue and purchasing power has gone down for most americans. Second we all know that Obama doesn't want universal health care but all he wants to do is make the health care industry whip itself into shape by making them put more emphasis on the service they provide ( like making technology innovations and requiring health plans to disclose what percentage of premiums actually goes to patient care as opposed to administrtive costs) and end up lowering premiums by thousands of dollars and allowing extra dollars to be saved or allow more people to afford health care and therby making up what profits would be lost in that particular industry. Yet i don't see how you guys like the idea of killing employer based coverage and puting more people at the mercy of the health care industry, i mean can't the private sector do some of the bad things thta government can do if left unchecked in a laizzez faire economy.

Losing their religion…
When I attack Marxists and cultural Marxists it’s not personal. I don’t have wealth to protect from them. Over my 30 year career I was always at the bottom of the food chain. I averaged $21,000 per year. I was always working my a** off, on the bottom rung of the ladder. I’m just trying to defend Christianity that unified the US and people were outraged about moral things, and passed laws based on biblical morality…

If you rich people don’t start doing a better job of defending your way of life, it’s disappearing. Right now about 50% are reeds blowing in the wind of post-Christian Marxist rabble rousers like Obama. They no longer are outraged by moral reasons. They are outraged that you have too much money and that others have too little money. This is even worse than the ghetto lottery trial lawyers, which at least are required to prove in court someone was damaged by you. Now they hate CEO’s simply because they earned too much money, and will pass federal laws to take the money and give it to the poor…

I have never been in the military or in law enforcement, but if you don’t start doing a better job of defending your way of life, it’s disappearing. Right now about 50% of the reeds blowing in the wind are post-Christian cultural Marxists. They no longer are outraged by moral reasons. They are outraged that ‘the man’ has too much power and that others, they call victim groups, have too little power. Any use of power and authority that was legitimate under Christianity is now spit on. If you try to impose anything on anybody you are the oppressor and they are the victim. They insist nobody has the right to tell anybody what to do or say, causing all this ACLU lawlessness. They are outraged simply because you use force, in the military, the death penalty, the gun in your truck, the gun defending your home, the strap, and the back of your hand. Love is all you need, has resulted in over 100 street gangs in every city and town…


bfred
The masses will read it, if you send this article out to people you know.

Kirk:
Well, obama says that he'll conclude the war in Iraq and use what we spend there for "free" health insurance. So 50 Million people with free health insurance (at $5000 per year) is equal to $250 Billion. Which is about 1/3 of what we have and will spend in Iraq, and thus that's equal to 3 years of free health insurance - what happens after that? Do we go back to "non-free" health insurance? Oh wait - Obama doesn't care because in 4 years we'll have another president and then it's the new guy's problem.

Vote obama!
..and live a consequence-free and a true Peter Pan existence. Not being held accountable for one's choices in life, and wonderful laws that remove consequences are what obama votes want i a candidate.

A must listen-to video:

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=194983

These are interviews of black folks in Harlem done by a reporter sent by Howard Stern.
Unbelievable!

Kyle
""first of all if cutting taxes on the wealthy to 30% was so successful then why (in real dollars) have we lost revenue and purchasing power has gone down for most american""

This is due to Inflation caused by energy and food prices (and health care) going up exponentially, and has very little to do with tax rates. It's been proven that when you lower the tax rates, more wealth is generated and tax revenues go UP.


""Second we all know that Obama doesn't want universal health care but all he wants to do is make the health care industry whip itself into shape......""

Call it what you will, It's still basically putting the Government in charge of Health care. Do you want the people who work for the DMV making decisions about your gall bladder surgery? They can't even take a picture that makes you look human!

Continued......

McSocialism the new slave state
"live a consequence-free and a true Peter Pan existence."

Isn't that the Bush, Paulson, McCain, bailout the rich doctrine.

Get a clew.

The rich are smarter than the rest of us, the smartest thing they ever did was invent the Government and the Republican Democratic two Party system.

Enjoy your tax break and you inflation.

Kyle part 2


""Yet i don't see how you guys like the idea of killing employer based coverage and puting more people at the mercy of the health care industry,""

This is simply a mischaracterization of McCain's plan.

He isn't taking away your employer paid health coverage. If your employer buys your insurance, you'll keep that coverage.

He is talking about giving a $5000 refundable tax credit to help pay for health coverage if you don't have it now. I used to work in the industry, $5000/yr will buy you a Lot of coverage.

And the bit about McCain taxing employer health benefits, You get $5000 whether your boss buys your insurance or not, so if he does, then you use that $5,000 to cover your tax on benefits, and you'll probably still have cash left over to spend on a new iPod.


I personally believe that WE can spend our money Much better than the Government kyle.

How about you?

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Gestell
You are right. Prof Williams, not Sowell, mentions this in the column you may not have completely read. The problem, as he correctly explains, is that everything is rationed in the world. Scarce resources come up against infinite wants and desires. How rationing occurs is the science of economics. But, hey, lets put some bureaucrats in charge of all rationing. It has worked so well in other countries.

And there's more
I've also examined Obama's economic ideas and find them lacking. Here is a link to the blog.

http://inyourrightmind.blogtownhall.com/2008/10/04/obamas_f inancial_follies.thtml

Uber....
It's the congress is who spends tax money and approves all spending bills. The last time I checked, congress was Democrat majority.

The bailout, like tax increases, was viagra to the Democrats.

Heaven forbid that "rich" people are friends with Repubs! Yeah, let's get those people who risk their money on the market, and those employers too, while we're at it! Yeah, they take risks, hire people, pay them and such, but let's get more of their money! Lenin, Marx, Castro, and the tin-pot idiot president of a banana republic in South American agree with you.

The Clinton administration had more multi-millionaires per square foot than any in history.

By the way, uber dumb, it's spelled "clue". Your public education has failed you judging from your amazingly ignornant posting.

Now go back to your joint.


Obama vs. Economics 101
Your first paragraph.

"if the government decides to tax their profits at a higher rate, they will earn less income and there will be less incentive for them to go into business".

Or, if the government decides to tax their profits at a higher rate, prices for goods and services will increase and therefore business drops and inventories rise.

It's the same stupid Obama mentality that he wants to levy a windfall profits tax on oil companies.

HIGHER TAXES, HIGHER PRICES.

JIMMY
HOMOSASSA, FL

Economics 101
Great article. When Obama talks about regulation, McCain should jump all over him. The cell phone, text messaging, the internet, and all the gadgets that Obama kids are in love with, are the result of deregulation. Is Obama suggesting that we bring back "MaBell?"

One other point:
Why should I work 70 hours per week as an economist and get taxed at a very high marginal rate, when I can work 30 hours per week at less than half my wage and pay almost nothing in taxes. Plus I would only be working about 35 weeks per year, get free health care, and my kids would qualify for free money to attend college.

My point is simple: why should I work hard when I can make just as much barely working?

if I'm not working hard, where is Obama going to get the money he needs to help hardworking Americans?




Health care
Williams rehash the tired and specious argument against national health care: France, Canada, etc... ration health care. So do we. We just don't call it rationing. That's how insurance companies make money.

Liberals
Crave the days of the ruling class. They pray on the ignorant under the guise of compassion. They are power hungry, evil, and pathetic. Most people that lean left were just nerds in High School that feel if they vote for Obama, they'll be part of the "in crowd" and get to hang out some day with Leo and Clooney. What losers... Think for yourself for once...

Mike
"" Think for yourself for once...""

If they did that, they wouldn't be liberals anymore Mike.

Besides, far too many who post here are not only ignorant, they're Proud of their ignorance.


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Economics 500
A big problem with conservatives is that they're unaware that there are courses beyond Economics 101 and they never bother to study them. Now, the pinacle of economic theory is to with the Nobel Prize in Economics. This year's winner of course being Paul Krugman who is squarely in the Obama camp.

How conservatives can bring our economy to its knees and then worry about others harming it boggles the mind. Anyone with any decency would sit down, shut up, and let someone else try.

Now let's correct Jackpine. Not even Arthur Laffer believes that cutting taxes increases government revenue. Here, read for yourself:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00 .html


Yes, the Europeans (and the rest of the industrialized world) "ration" health care. That way people don't get drugs and procedures they don't need (as they do here). You can't argue with the scoreboard. These "socialists" have better health than us by every measurable standard. They spend their money on health care rather than advertizing drugs and buying off politicians.

Thank God the majority of Americans appear to be no longer under your delusional spell.

Kyle, congratulations!!!!
Voting for the first time is awesome!

I was raised by parents who were about as politically divergent from one another one as you can get, so when I came to the voting booth the first time, I was really truly a moderate. I'd seen both sides of every issue since I was four because my parents actually liked to argue politics with one another and my brother loved to play devil's advocate.

But, here's the thing. At some point, you have to educate yourself on what's REALLY going on. You can't just vote on your perceptions. Look at the history of tax cuts versus economic growth over the last 30 years. Most times taxes are raised on higher income folks who are the ones creating most of the jobs in this country (what is called small business, which is generally between $200,000 and 1 mill), the economy has contracted. When taxes are lowered, the economy booms. The Bush tax cuts softened the recession that should have slammed us after 911. Unfortunately, we don't control our own energy and that has driven a LOT of this new recession. Increased world oil prices made fuel price increased inevitable, which raised the cost of operating a home and business, food costs, etc. Then the loss of refineries that the envirommentalists won't let us rebuild has exascerbated the problem. In reality, the economy was growing until about two years ago when the Dems took control of Congress. That's reality versus perception and the political economic spin that you hear on CNN.

Cam
You're wrong!!!!

Maybe you should speak to some doctors who have practiced in those European countries. My cousin (an imminent researcher in neurology) did an exchange program in France 10 years ago. He got there and he had a waiting list in the 100s. More than 50 percent of the people he saw were terminal by the time he saw them, but they owuld have been treatable had he seem them here because -- ta-da -- they wouldn't have been on a waiting list for years. And, no, they don't have better health than we do. Check out their life expectancy and their death rates from what we in this country consider to be highly treatable diseases. Especially check out the countries where you can't buy health care yourself, but must go through the government system. The fact that I live in Alaska and Canadians come to Fairbanks for health care coverage should tell you something.

Oh, yeah, we're talking about Cam. It tells the rest of us, those of us who can think beyond Obama talking points, something. It probably doesn't actually tell Cam anything, because -- well, he's Cam.

OBAMANOMICS 101_____for "CAM"
*
___2 Lawyers who: Never had a job, never ran a budget, and think that if we inflate our tires the law of supply and demand will be erased !

___2 Lawyers who never did anything for this country except go to Washington to pontificate in grand sweeping speeches about how great they are.

___2 Lawyers who: Never had a job, never ran a budget, feign economic savvy, START THE WHOLE HOUSING MESS BY DEMANDING THAT PEOPLE WHO CANT AFFORD A MORTGAGE HAVE A "RIGHT" TO A HOME, LIKE RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WHO EARNED IT, and then tell us that PAYING HIGHER TAXES IS PATRIOTIC !

___________OBAMANOMICS 101:

"TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION"! Wait a minute is that how this whole republic called the USA got started. The "Boston Tea Party". And now we've come full circle. What a shame for our children.

"Hey CAM" Paul Krugman is a Fruitcup and the last Worthless Nobel Prize was given to AL "tin foil hat" GORE !

ENOUGH SAID

Obama is a sleep
sen.Obama need to face reality, first of all the people who really pays capital gains taxes are the few parents who child exceed in something and remove them from the ranks of poverty. Sen. Obama do not put them right back on surviving week by week because you want more people on welfare. Small businesses may be able to borrow operating capital, how can they pay it back if Sen. Obama tax anything they save. the minority business owner will be hit the worst not the Wall Street CEO. Reality time remember the streets you walked to register people to vote. You ate at the businesses you are now planning to bankurpt and there will be no bailout for them.Wake up Obama you are completely ignorant or you really do not care about the middle class. Prior to your book deal was you not a member of the middle class.

No. Just, no.
I used to live in my car. Not for long, but it was long enough.
I bothered to take responsibility for my actions and my future. I educated myself (didn't have the resources to attend college) and worked hard (sometimes 2 jobs while I did it). I bettered myself without handouts from strangers or the government.
NOW, this hoity-toidy liberal comes in and says my success should be "spread around" so others can be successful, too?

Tell me, you ignorant Socialists; why should others get a free ride off my hard work and success? No matter what you THINK, they shouldn't. How 'bout they get up off their butts and do what I, and so many others, did? Why can't THEY go to the effort to better themselves on their own? Those who don't get NO sympathy from me.

You "Redistributionists" make me physically ill.

It's my hard work, and MY money. Free loaders aren't welcome to it.

Silly Pinko Public Utilities
"No Just No" --

If your house caught fire tonight, I take it you wouldn't want my tax dollars paying some socialist fire department to come and save your sorry self.

Kevin
*
Hey man when your done smoking crack, please explain to us how you figure city services that taxpayers fund, you know pay for, is somehow a socialist program and takin part of my pay check and redistributing it to others is not.

OK, put the bowl down and Think ?

Times up, your an idiot !

Troglodyte
If you'll notice, nowhere did I say that taking part of your pay check is not a socialist program.

Instead, I'm demonstrating that parts of our system of taxation with representation are predicated upon the notion of social responsibility.

Gestell
The problem with your position is that insurance plans are readily available that DO NOT involve rationing. They are more expensive. That means that the consumer of health insurance services may VOLUNTARILY decide to take a less expensive plan that provides specified care for the specified price but is not FORCED into that situation by government. There is an enormous difference between having choices in the marketplace that recognizes the scarcity of resources and given no choice but to accept care that is rationed (to a FAR greater degree than even HMOs do) by the state.

Fruitcup
*
Exactly, you demonstrate nothing, with the exception of ignorance disguised as your ideas.
Social responsibility like Federal taxes are:
--V O L U N T A R Y as well mandated monopolies;
that is until OBAMAS elected and we all have to live in YOUR world. That WONT be Voluntary!

Cam
Everyone in the economics field knew that Krugman would eventually win the Nobel. This is because the Nobel committee has an enormous and inescapable bias and is fond of rewarding theories that are 40 years out of date and often already refuted (as in this case, where Krugman was cited for his international trade theory that doesn't survive the basic observation that, in reality, international trade is not primarily between countries but between INDIVIDUALS - or private companies - who happen to be located in different countries).

Paul Krugman has no qualms about completely abandoning basic economic principles in his columns to bash all things Republican. This is why it is no surprise that he is an Obama supporter and why only a very, very few people in the field actually take him at all seriously any more.

ACORN+OBAMA plot Nov "5th" YOUTUBE
*
Obama and A C O R N in person ploting Nov 4Th and worse; Nov5th! Something everyone should view before election day !
Obama is a Liar and a Theif; in his own Words.
And where is CNN,NBC,ABC,CBS etc,etc, busy electing him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG29uP3mvUc

http://www.roadsassy.com/2008/10/11/caught-on-tapeobama-pro mising-acorn-that-
they-will-help-shape-his-policies-in-the-white-house/

Kyle's false premises 1
"why have we lost revenue and purchasing power has gone down for most americans."

We haven't. More compensation is paid in the form of benefits rather than wages, due to tax laws and greater demand for benefits. Total compensation (in real dollars) has steadily grown every year.

"Second we all know that Obama doesn't want universal health care but all he wants to do is make the health care industry whip itself into shape by making them put more emphasis on the service they provide..."

The concepts he has presented result in a health insurance system that is private in name only. We actually know better.

"...like making technology innovations..."

Making that happen by governmental fiat is an impossibility.

"...and requiring health plans to disclose what percentage of premiums actually goes to patient care as opposed to administrtive costs..."

The main driver of administrative costs is the host of governmental regulations and paperwork that has been imposed (conveniently unmentioned when discussing the small amount associated with Medicare costs because the expense is dumped on doctors).

Kyle's false premises 2
"...lowering premiums by thousands of dollars and allowing extra dollars to be saved or allow more people to afford health care and therby making up what profits would be lost in that particular industry."

The statement is pure economic fantasy.

"Yet i don't see how you guys like the idea of killing employer based coverage and puting more people at the mercy of the health care industry..."

Private direct health insurance worked more effectively (even for the poor) than the state system that actually makes private care of the poor for a minimal fee (to cover expenses) ILLEGAL. It was the wage controls imposed by government during World War II that induced employers to begin offering other forms of compensation (health insurance) and that additional separation between insurer and insured has only served to force prices higher still.

"i mean can't the private sector do some of the bad things thta government can do if left unchecked in a laizzez faire economy."

No. The market is not perfect but basic competition prevents private actors from making the massive blunders that government makes on a regular basis.

YOUTUBE and now; OBAMA the L I A R
*
Obama and A C O R N in person ploting Nov 4Th and worse; Nov5th! Something everyone should view before election day !
Obama is a Liar and a Theif; in his own Words.
And where is CNN,NBC,ABC,CBS etc,etc, busy electing him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG29uP3mvUc

http://www.roadsassy.com/2008/10/11/caught-on-tapeobama-pro mising-acorn-that-
they-will-help-shape-his-policies-in-the-white-house/

Cam Location: CA Reply # 28
"Nobel Prize in Economics. This year's winner of course being Paul Krugman who is squarely in the Obama camp."

Nobel Prize established by Alfred Nobel, the man who invented dynamite.

Nobel Peace Prize - Awarded to Yassir Arafat, the terrorist leader who suspended his use of dynamite in school buses full of children.

If Arafat was alive today would he be "squarely in the Obama camp"?

Perhaps his "Minister of Peace"?

Paying for Health Care
If individuals do not pay a portion of their health care, they don't care how much it costs. A $20.00 aspirin in the hospital is not challenged because either the insurance or the government is picking up the bill. If you had to pay $2.00 of the $20.00 aspirin, much screeming and hollering would cause the cost of the aspirin to go down very quickly.
If people only have $5000.00 to put towards health insurance, most health insurance would only cost $5000.00.

Carl Location: VA Reply # 45
Unbelievable.

Recently I was hospitalized for two weeks after surgery; got a bill for $125,000.

$33,000 for drugs, mostly pain meds

I

Sol Hospital Bill
Sol, Was this a bill to you or paid by insurance. I have found that the insurance companies negotiate a SIGNIFICANT discount on what they actually pay compared to the billed amount. This is why many people (especially small businesses with only a couple of employees) cannot afford to provide health coverage.

Ted
You can keep blaming the media, my dysgraphic friend. An Illinois vote for McTard-Palin is already a moot point.

Hospital bill
I was was walking my dog, run over by a car, "hit and run".

A govt. program, "Victims of Violent Crimes" picked up the tab.

I don't think the govt. is proficient at negotiating discounts. Hospitals like to "stick it" to whomever they can, especially govt. agencies run by dimwits.

Ever hear of the "$5,000 hammer" or "$10,000 toilet seat" the govt. pays for?

Health Care Rationing
We have health care rationing in the USA TODAY. The rationing is done (1) by health insurance companies which have a financial interest in denying you care; and (2) by denying care to the 45 million Americans who do not have health insurance. ((2A) If an individual has a pre-existing medical condition, such as diabetes or epilepsy, then the purchase of health insurance on the open market is impossible). This means: the wealthy can always purchase the health care they need. Everyone else is subject to profit-driven big business rules. It's a debating trick to imply that Universal Health Care will introduce rationing into a system where there is none now.

"$5,000 hammer" or "$10,000 toilet seat"
Yes I've heart of the "$5,000 hammer" or "$10,000 toilet seat". My (late) father was an accountant at GAO (Government Accounting Office) and it was his group that discovered "$5,000 hammer" or "$10,000 toilet seat" during the first Reagan administration. What happened was that the Reagan administration had given a "cost-plus" defense contract on a no-bid basis to a major contributor to the Reagan campaign. The PRIVATE INDUSTRY submitted "$5,000 hammer" or "$10,000 toilet seat" as part of the "cost" of producing the defense product (I believe it was an airplane but it's been a few years). The government, under Reagan's direction, was to just pay the bill. The GAO audited the company in question because of the unexpectedly high cost of the cost-plus contract and discovered "$5,000 hammer" or "$10,000 toilet seat". The information was released to the public via a government report but nothing was done about recouping the costs. This could have been avoided by setting up different rules for re-imbursing the private company for producing the defense product .... or even by having private companies bid for the government contract, instead of the government just handing the contract (and money) over to the Reagan campaign contributor.

Kevin
*
Alas, I am a witness for the prosecution as I have seen the planet healer at work in my own city, and cant wait till he leaves my good neighbors, while they still have a pot. Whether by force or spontaneous combustion he needs to disperse along with other political sewage that washes up on our shores from time to time and stinks our fair land even worse.
They said Californey is the place he ot to be cause the land of fruits and nuts, ain't what it used to beeeeeee.
Peace, my clueless Pen Pal.....

Georgia Socialist 1
That we have health care rationing in the US today doesn't change the fact that HMOs (which are VOLUNTARILY joined by individuals seeking to pay less) do a better job of meeting patient needs than do socialized medicine systems. Further, the statement that health insurance companies which have a financial interest in denying you care" is pure bovine fecal matter. To the contrary, the competitive forces that remaion despite governmental intervention result in better health outcomes than can be found under socialized care. If you get a major illness, you'd better pray you are in the US.

The "45 million" Americans are not "denied" care. First of all, you should know that the Census Bureau performs two surveys of health care. One indicates that 85% of AMericans are covered (leaving 48 million uninsured). The other, which the Cnesus Bureau concedes is more accurate, yileds a figure of 92% insured - leaving about 24 million uninsured. More than 15 million people of the "uninsured" are eligible for Medicare/Medicaid but have simply not enrolled. Another third of the uninsured earn more than 300% of the poverty line. And something like a third are relatively young people (many of whom choose to delay coverage).

Georgia Socialist 2
The statement that ‘[i]f an individual has a pre-existing medical condition, such as diabetes or epilepsy, then the purchase of health insurance on the open market is impossible” is utterly and completely false (as I know from personal experience). Moreover, anyone who already has insurance can change insurers without difficulty, so, really, the only people who are damaged by the higher expenses related to pre-existing conditions are those who chose not to pay for the coverage of health risks (which is what insurance does) until AFTER a health event occurred and then wanted to force everyone else to pay for that decision.

Affordable health insurance is easily obtainable on line literally RIGHT NOW at rates that people who are not “wealthy” by any definition can easily afford. Your assessment of the health care system in this country is completely dishonest…

…kind of like the pretense that governmental waste was somehow unique (or even more prevalent) during the Reagan administration when (obviously) such waste has been endemic since AT LEAST the Civil War and the decisions are made primarily by procurement officers while Congress controls the purse strings.

Fire your fact checker. He does a terrible job.

response from Kevin to "No. Just no"
If you actually took the time to read the post, you'd know I was talking about Obama wanting to redistribute more of the money that I EARNED to individuals (not services) who HAVE NOT earned it.

I was not talking about tax money used to pay for essential services such as fire and police (again, if you had read the entire post, you would have seen this). I WAS referring to those who think the Government and successful people OWE them anything.

Hand-outs, welfare, income redistribution (whatever you want to call it) eliminates the desire to better yourself for many in this country. There are some who, indeed, need real help or are without the means to make a better life. This number, however, is NOT as high as Obama's Army of Social Liberalism would have you believe.

I have a much better life because I took the personal responsibility for my life. That others expect a free ride in the back seat of someone else is disgraceful.

About that hammer and that toilet seat..
In brief, the "toilet seat" wasn't exactly a plastic ring. It was a newly engineered human waste-control system: useful, not to say essential, when your vehicle is not an airplane but rather a self-contained research lab located in low earth orbit. And the hammer wasn't something you pick up at Home Depot. Every molecule in the tool had a pedigree -- that is, a documented paper trail for every step in its manufacture -- going all the way back to the mines the ores came from. The hammer was made of an alloy of bronze and beryllium, the latter of which is an extremely toxic metal that has the advantage of not producing sparks when it hits another metal -- another useful property when you're working in a 90% oxygen atmosphere. (For those who decided that chemistry and physics were just too hard, I'll make it simple: oxygen + spark = kaboom. Bigtime.)

All in all, Antonio Gramsci (he of the "long march through the institutions" of American education, entertainment, and the press) must be giggling himself silly in his grave at the unprecedented, towering success of the last 40 years' leftist campaign to produce a U.S. population of marching -- no, make that "slouching" -- morons.

The pro from dover: wrong on that facts



"It's the congress is who spends tax money and approves all spending bills. The last time I checked, congress was Democrat majority."

That must be a good feeling to be able to say at least that, when John McSocialist keeps coming up with Bigger and Bigger Government programs. When Bush and Paulson go begging for money to expand the government. It must help you sleep better at night knowing that at least you have one talking point.... Democrats, control congress even if that control is slim and even if the Republican leadership is lock step behind them, and even if the only way to get more votes form republicans is to.... and this is the kicker..... ad PORK to the bill.

But at least you can still say that Republicans aren't vegetarians.

"The bailout, like tax increases, was viagra to the Democrats."

What does that say about John McSocialist.

"Heaven forbid that "rich" people are friends with Repubs! Yeah, let's get those people who risk their money on the market, and those employers too, while we're at it!"

Yeah it's called consequences... something conservatives seem to not understand.

Talk about Moral Relativism...







more facts wrong
"Yeah, they take risks, hire people, pay them and such, but let's get more of their money!"

Perhaps you want to give a tax break on Gang Revenue.... they hire people too...

"Lenin, Marx, Castro, and the tin-pot idiot president of a banana republic in South American agree with you."

The only banana republic I see is the USA.... you conservatives have been electing liberals to sell your country to the highest bider for the last thirty years... China, Europe, Japan, United Arab Emirates

The fact that Bush didn't sell our ports to the Arabs..... well it was a small victory in a sea of treason.

"The Clinton administration had more multi-millionaires per square foot than any in history."

I thought you like rich people?

"By the way, uber dumb, it's spelled "clue". Your public education has failed you judging from your amazingly ignornant posting."

I can't spell, I know that, just like you have no good argument... you know that.
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