Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, May 01, 2008
Andrew Tallman :: Townhall.com Columnist
What About Mercy and Forgiveness? Religious Objections to Capital Punishment
by Andrew Tallman
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


In the last two columns, I showed how the Bible consistently affirms capital punishment from Genesis to Revelation, including the teachings of Jesus. Nonetheless, many sincere Christians doubt this, and it is only fitting to consider their objections.

Religious Objection 1: We should forgive people, not execute them.

Since forgiveness is the core of Christianity, people often say we are obligated to extend forgiveness to the murderer. After all, in Matthew 6:12 Jesus taught us to pray, “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.” And He added the emphasis in verses 14-15, “For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.” Such mandatory forgiveness hardly seems best expressed through execution.

One way to respond is by examining precisely what a justice system based on this interpretation of Jesus’ teachings would look like. If it is true that executing someone is unchristian, it’s hard to see which punishment wouldn’t have to go. Though Life in Prison without the Possibility of Parole (LIPWPP) is more lenient than execution, life imprisonment still seems to be unforgiving. It’s difficult to imagine a murderer sitting in jail after 40 years pondering the awe-inspiring forgiveness of his captors. Much shorter imprisonment would be more forgiving, but no imprisonment at all would be the zenith of forgiveness. Even community service, probation and fines are less than fully forgiving. Thus, not merely execution, but all possible expressions of a justice system are incompatible with the forgiveness people claim Jesus is advocating. LIPWPP advocates are showing the shallowness, not the depth, of their commitment to the principle of forgiveness.

I’m sure some would object that I’m being ludicrous here, but I would remind them of the clarity of the text. Its seemingly universal scope is not limited to merely capital crimes or execution. Moreover, Christian doctrine holds that we can be forgiven for any and all sins. Therefore, if the duty of the government is to forgive as much as God forgives us individually, we must not punish even a pickpocket or parking violator lest we forfeit our own forgiveness.

Now if someone seriously advocated anarchy for this reason, I would at least applaud his consistency. But one needn’t embrace such radical stupidity to honor Jesus’ doctrines. The problem is, obviously, not with what He taught, but with how His teaching gets misapplied.

Jesus was not trying to establish forgiveness as the guiding principle of government. He knew this was impossible. Forgiveness is an individual matter, and doesn’t even factor into governmental matters. Likewise, punishment, which is entirely a government domain, is not something individual citizens are tasked with doing. Jesus was instructing individuals, not writing a constitution. Judging a state’s laws by their forgiveness is like judging a fish for how well he rides a bicycle.

Religious Objection 2: We should show mercy and not execute people.

At the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5:7 Jesus says, “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy” (Matthew 5:7). Later, when challenged by the Pharisees for His associations with sinners, Jesus says, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are ill. But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners” (Matthew 9:12-13). Surely we can offer enough mercy to the murderer to grant him life in prison instead of execution.

Before dealing directly with this argument, consider what it inadvertently acknowledges: capital punishment is perfectly just. In urging a punishment reduction, mercy advocates are conceding that execution is the appropriate starting point. Reducing an excessive penalty to something proper is only remedying an injustice, not an expression of mercy. Mercy is someone doing less than he is justified in doing. Lowering the penalty for theft from hand amputation to imprisonment is just averting an injustice. Making it merely a fine would be an act of mercy. Thus, moving a murderer from death row to LIPWPP is only an act of mercy insofar as death row was the correct place for him for his crime. I mention this because many people who urge mercy also complain that capital punishment is barbaric, unfair, excessive or unconstitutional. Capital punishment could be inherently wrong, or it could be right but unmerciful. It cannot be both.   

Still, shouldn’t we try to be more merciful? Well … more merciful than whom? I ask because I just spent two columns establishing that God the Father and God the Son both affirm capital punishment for murder. In fact, God specifically says He is offended by people being too lenient to murderers and thus failing to expiate the bloodguilt which the murderer brought upon the land (Numbers 35:31-33; see Part 7). Are we really to put ourselves in the position of claiming that we can and should be more merciful than God Himself? The arrogance of this insult to His character is astonishing.

The truth is that we already are fairly merciful to murderers. We allow them much greater mercy than they afforded their victims in that we give them time and counseling to come to repentance. We are merciful in that we kill them in the least painful way, far less painfully than they generally kill their victims. And we are merciful in that we prevent them from polluting their own souls with subsequent evils, as both Augustine and Aquinas taught. I’m actually quite proud of how merciful we are already, much to the chagrin of certain bloodthirsty sorts who think our appeals process is too slow and say charming things like, “Hangin’s too good fer ’em.” If our practice offends those who love justice without mercy as well as those who love mercy without justice, it’s likely we’ve found a healthy way to thread the needle through both values.

In my next column, we’ll continue our discussion of religious objections to capital punishment such as encouraging salvation, playing God by taking life and whether execution is loving.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Andrew Tallman is host of The Andrew Tallman Show on AM 1360 KPXQ from 5-7PM weekdays in Phoenix, AZ.

Be the first to read Andrew Tallman's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

mercy and forgiveness
both wen out with collateral damage. and guantanamo

to support death in any form
is to negate the inherent right to life.

humans are fallible, God is not.

a majority of protestant denominations and the catholic church all consider the death penalty immoral.

remember there is biblical support for slavery also does that mean slavery is moral.

those who support the death penalty, are courting eternal damnation.

Very good, its sound doctrine
The forgiveness of sins repented for, do not change the law that any man who takes a life, pays with his own.


Ge 9:6 -
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

response to religiouslib
On the first point "to support the death in any form is to negate the right to life" Everyone will die...no matter what the state does. I think that phrase is essentially vacuous. If you mean "take away some years of one's life" exactly what do you think prison is?

"humans are fallible, God it not" in which case no human government should every punish anyone because they might make a mistake. And don't say "they can correct the error". If government locks someone up for 20 years unjustly they cannot give those years back.


death penalty
i think im correct when i say the pope has said that there might very well be4 times when the death penalty could be morally applied. chck it out. if you really car what the pope says. ioi mean hes just the pope

developer
true on giving years back but they are financially compensated.

when you mistakenly take a life, then what is the compensation.

does God just shrug his shoulders and say "well they are trying to get it right".

12% of inmates on death row in 1999 were found to be innocent after dna testing.

that means 22 individuals were sentenced to death falsely.

that is a scary number to me.

oops
i meant to say 12% in illinois were found innocent.

Good points religiouslib...
In a previous article Tallman recommended that capital punishment be limited to only those situations where we are sure the convict is guilty - not just beyond a reasonable doubt. Timothy McVeigh is the example he gives.

Please note, though, this is a very different argument from the one you gave earlier. Also in this article he is just addressing the issue from a religious/Christian standpoint.

religious lib, is an enemy of the Gospel
Teaching false doctrines

If the Death Penalty was Immoral, Jesus Christ would never have submitted Himself to it.
And even if there was any part of it God is against, Jesus never once said a word against it, but said He came to die by Capitol Punishment.

John 12:
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a kernel of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Says it all
"and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."

Nothing immoral about the Death Penalty, except to abuse the Power of State and send innocent people to death.


One thing that would help prevent an abuse, is stop making the Office of District Attorney a Political Office.
Inviting some dishonest man to run for office on the convictions he gained.


talent scout
i respect your knowledge of the bible.

now i could surely make the case through the use of scripture that slavery is acceptable unto the lord.

there are at least 22 examples of pro-slavery verses.

but as Christians we came to the conclusion that slavery was immoral in the eyes of God.

unless of course you still believe slavery is moral.

the same is true of capital punishment.

just like slavery we will look back one day and ask how Christians could believe in such a thing.


weakest section so far
Given that the previous parts have been of a fairly high quality, and that merch and forgiveness are not big factors on the death penalty for me, I expected more from this argument.

I suppose that one way one could try to apply mercy and forgiveness to such cases would be to simply abandon punishment. But a more natural way to apply it would be to limit punishment to what is needed for deterence and preventive purposes. There is no reason why forgiving someone requires one to ignore the fact that he might transgress again.

Tallman is right that the mercy argument presupposes the failure of the excessive argument. But there is nothing wrong on those grounds of arguing that the death penalty is excessive, and if you don't find that convincing then you should find the death penalty to violate our sense of mercy.

I do notice that if one accepts this argument, then one should recognize that the people who celebrate the suffering of the murderers or wish worse onto them are clearly violating christian principles. After all the distinction here is between forgiveness by the state and by individuals. The fact that it does not apply to the state does not clear the need for the christian to apply it as an individual.

Of course one of the advantages of not being christian is that one does not have this demand on one to forgive things that may not deserve forgiving.

Religious Lib
What about the inherent right to life for the victims of all these d*mn murderers?

Do you not give a d*mn about them?

What shall you say to the family of the latest victim of the murderer who just got released from prison, and who celebrated by going out and ending someone else's life?

What exactly do you recommend we do to prevent all these d*mn recidivists from murdering again and again and again and again and again?

You make me sick.

Glad you do
religiouslib writes: 12:19 AM
talent scout
i respect your knowledge of the bible.

now i could surely make the case through the use of scripture that slavery is acceptable unto the lord.
---------
ts:
No you cannot.
Anyone can see the Bible recognized slavery existed.
But it also recognized adultery existed.

Here is a link that goes into the subject in depth.
The Bible, Slavery, and America's Founders
Stephen McDowell
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=120

--------


religiouslib writes:
there are at least 22 examples of pro-slavery verses.
------
ts:
Read and study the link above.
----------
religiouslib writes:
but as Christians we came to the conclusion that slavery was immoral in the eyes of God.
--------
ts:
God has never changed has He.
He alwasy was against Slavery.

--------
religiouslib writes:
unless of course you still believe slavery is moral.
------
ts:
Oh for sure, I got hundreds of them
-----------
religiouslib writes:

the same is true of capital punishment.
--------
ts:
You are ignorant of Bible teaching and need to be very quiet about it until you learn from it.

---------
religiouslib writes:
just like slavery we will look back one day and ask how Christians could believe in such a thing.
---------
ts:
No we won't.
Death Penalty if from God, and He never changes.

Slavery from a real Bible Teacher

The problem today is so many try and teach the Bible and do not know what they are talking about.
They were NOT called of God to teach it, but by their mothers or fathers.
People like religious lib



Excerpt:

The Bible and Slavery
The Bible teaches that slavery, in one form or another (including spiritual, mental, and physical), is always the fruit of disobedience to God and His law/word. (This is not to say that the enslavement of any one person, or group of people, is due to their sin, for many have been enslaved unjustly, like Joseph and numerous Christians throughout history.) Personal and civil liberty is the result of applying the truth of the Scriptures. As a person or nation more fully applies the principles of Christianity, there will be increasing freedom in every realm of life. Sanctification for a person, or nation, is a gradual process. The fruit of changed thinking and action, which comes from rooting sin out of our lives, may take time to see. This certainly applies historically in removing slavery from the Christian world.

Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Even if a man is enslaved unjustly, no man can take the Liberty that comes from God away from him, God's Truth.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=120

The God of the New Testament
Is the SAME God of the Old.
God pronounced the Death Sentence on Adam, the first man and son of God.
It took 900 years to happen, but it came.
Same thing today for all who sin, the Death Penalty is on them, even if they do not die for 70 more years.
Life can only be found in accepting the gift of life through Jesus Christ.


The Law was a Curse on the Israelite over their disobedience to God.

Just as the Apostle Paul says here:

Ga 3:19 -
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The Law condemned sin, and there were sins unto death.
Adultery, murder, witchcraft and several others were Capitol Crimes, the Bible calls sin.

1John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

There is STILL a death sentence on Capitol Crimes, and is Lawful and JUST in Criminal Law


Jesus Christ never done away with the Law of Moses, but He did bring Righteousness to it.


Mt 5:18 -
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.




Sorry ahead of time if this is doubled
I believe that mercy and forgiveness can ONLY be shown by the family of the victim.

It is the STATE that mandates punishment both as a deterrent to future acts (by this perp and others) and as a way to say "I'm sorry."

The death penalty in capital cases is because the perp violated the RULES OF MAN - not just the rules of God. We live in an orderly society and observe LAWS. If someone breaks those laws, he has injuried the STATE also.

Not only did you kill someone in the victim's family, but you killed someone who is a CITIZEN, or in these times at least a resident.

Jesus deserved death?
talent scout writes:
"If the Death Penalty was Immoral, Jesus Christ would never have submitted Himself to it."

So, since it is only moral to use the death penalty on people who have committed some crime, and Jesus was sinless, how was that moral to submit Him to it?? Or are we now saying that capital punishment is acceptable even against those who do no wrong?

Just because Jesus died by capital punishment doesn't mean that that is a reason to support it. If anything, it would be a reason NOT to. After all, it is the way God was killed when He was on Earth, if there was no capital punishment, He wouldn't have been.

"Jesus never once said a word against it, but said He came to die by Capitol Punishment" No, he said "for this cause come I into the world." What cause? To save men from their sins.

Don't uphold good principles with bad arguments. It causes people to reject the principle because of the argument.

Judicial killing
If you want a scriptural basis for judicial execution there are plently of other verses to visit once you have finished Leviticus. The deaths of between 2,000,000 and 32,000,000 people are attributed to god in the Old Testament; the Judeo-christian god leads by example. All good christians should be stoning adulterers, gays, unruly children and brides who are not virgins.

If you don't need scripture to be right, then why not view criminals as people who have gone wrong and need repair? You don't send to the scrapyard your new Aston Martin DB9 because of a failure of one part. Why do that to human beings?

Stuart

A Great Deterrent
That capital punishment is commanded of us in the Bible has already been shown. The Genesis 9:6 passage that talent scout quoted adds "for in the image of God made he man." The meaning is (that by being in the image of God) we represent God here on earth and thereby have the authority of God to execute murderers.

Capital punishment is a great deterrent to murder. The Bible points out the only time it isn’t.

“Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.” Ecclesiastes 8:11

Ezra 7:26
”And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death….”

With the coming of DNA, time on death row should be greatly reduced.

Gary Gordon




God's Plan
Libertybob writes: 6:23 AM
Jesus deserved death?
----------
talent scout writes:
"If the Death Penalty was Immoral, Jesus Christ would never have submitted Himself to it."


Libertybob writes:
So, since it is only moral to use the death penalty on people who have committed some crime, and Jesus was sinless, how was that moral to submit Him to it?? Or are we now saying that capital punishment is acceptable even against those who do no wrong?
--------
ts:
I say nothing
The Bible says the Law itself is good.
The problem comes from immoral men who abuse the Law.
The death sentence is Just, when applied properly.
The men had one purpose to crucify Jesus Christ, and God quite another.
God is not limited by the will or the deeds of men, He is above it all.

The Lord knew He was going to be Crucified before Pilate ever gave the sentence of death, because God planned to use the death of the Cross for the Sacrifice for sin of all men.

Jesus looked death right in its face and walked willingly toward it, submitting Himself to the Will of the Father as the Sacrifice for the Sins of the world.
God can take evil and turn it into a blessing.
Without this sacrifice, there is no forgiveness of sin, and no promise of life.

Now there is, through Jesus Christ.
As Paul said:
"Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift"



Libertybob writes:
Just because Jesus died by capital punishment doesn't mean that that is a reason to support it. If anything, it would be a reason NOT to. After all, it is the way God was killed when He was on Earth, if there was no capital punishment, He wouldn't have been.
--------
ts:

What nonsense.
God Himself has issued the death sentence on sin and this entire world.
You saying God is unjust in making that Judgment?
You best back up and take a long hard look at this question, and let the Bible teach you.

God Himself Enacted the Law of Moses to bring swift justice on evil doers, on sinners.
He has not changed in any of His Judgments on sin.

By the time Jesus came the Law of God had been warped so bad by the rulers in Israel, the Lord put a curse on Lawyers themselves.
And they had best learn who the real Law giver is, and its true purpose to bring Justice, not a profession to provide income.

----------

I said:
"Jesus never once said a word against it, but said He came to die by Capitol Punishment"

Libertybob writes:
No, he said "for this cause come I into the world." What cause? To save men from their sins.
---------
Yes
Through the death of the Cross.
Its so blatant only a deluded mind would argue it.

The cause Jesus spoke of IS the DEATH OF THE CROSS.
That is God's plan.
Like Jesus said here:

John 12:
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a kernel of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
The Death of the Cross is what God used to Glorify Jesus Christ by Raising Him from the dead and making Him Lord over all.

You are ignorant sir, Mr. Liberty bob
as you say:
Don't uphold good principles with bad arguments. It causes people to reject the principle because of the argument.
--------
ts:
You are the man

The Law of God demands Justice
Any person who takes another man's life through an evil deed of murder, has the sentence of death from God on his own head.

There was no Criminal or Civil Laws in Israel UNTIL God gave the Law through Moses.

The purpose of the Law was manifold and has never changed.
The Israelites had Angered God due to their disobedience, and for that cause, to take immediate Justice on Sin, God gave the Law to Moses, and it commanded the rulers in Israel to apply the death sentence on Capitol Crimes.
This has never changed, and never will.
Not God's plan anyway.

Moses had to set up a Justice System after receiving the Law, and this Justice System is the very basis of Judeo Christian Law the American Judicial System is based in.

The death sentence was never questioned in America until reprobates and hypocrites got enough numbers into the Justice System, to ignore God and the Laws of the Land.

Thinking to over rule the Law Giver and true Judge Himself.
Its why today we have more crime than this nation ever seen in past history.
There is no justice and all of society suffers from having ding bats in the law profession(mostly politicians).
Men who are ignorant of God and self-righteous.


On Capital Punishment
I have heard people say that one reason for Christians (Catholics in particular) should oppose Capital Punishment is that its inconsistent application, even here, indicates that there is more "respect for life" in, say, France or Wisconsin (which don't have it) than in Virginia or Texas (which actually use it.)

I counter this assertion by noting that most places and politicians that don't like capital punishment show their lack of respect for life by supporting abortion, Embryonic Stem Cell research, and euthanasia.

I could go either way on Capital Punishment, myself. I don't mind if it's applied to mass murderers (like Tim McVeigh), Serial Killers (like John Allen Muhammad), Child killers (like John Couey and Richard Allen Davis), those who commit particularly heinous murders (like John King, Lawrence Brewer, Tookie Williams, and Mumia Abu Jamal) and traitors (like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg), particularly when there is no doubt as to their guilt (except the extraordinarily unreasonable doubts that crop up in the minds of some liberals). Even in these cases the gravity of the offense and any possible mitigation should be considered.

What I find truely disgusting is the people who fight tooth and nail to support abortion while fighting almost as vigorously to keep a cold-blooded murderer alive and possibly returned to the streets. When the life of one hardened criminal is worth far more than the lives of 1,000 un-born children, THAT is disrespect to the sanctity of life.

religiouslib,
You have it exactly backwards.

To support the death penalty for murder and like crimes is to assert in the most unmistakable way the incalculable value of a human life.

To advocate anything less than that a murder should pay for violating the utter sanctity of an innocent life with anything less than his own life is to devalue that innocent life.

Advocating against the death penalty does not show enlightenment or civilization or any other such virtue. It only shows the inability to distinguish between innocence and guilt, between the victim and the criminal, between defense and attack.

In a sane society those who make the deliberate choice to kill know full well the penalty to come. They choose their death when they raise their hand against that innocent life in the first place.


Mother of 4
And here I was, ready to go off on a tangent explaining why capital punnishement is not only necessary, but moral. Yet after reading your post I find I can not improve on it in the slightest. Well done.

Points to think about.
As said above, the people who deserve compassion are the victims. "Victims" include those who already have been wronged and those who WILL BE wronged if the perpetrator is allowed to continue his lawless behavior without supervision. There is no justice to the victim if the criminal does not suffer a penalty roughly equal to the crime, and there is no justice to innocents if the criminal is released when the likelihood of recidivism is high.

What percentage of our prison population is made up of those who have already been incarcerated for one or more crimes? Some types of criminals should never be allowed another opportunity to offend.

"Forgiveness" does NOT mean that you give an offender the opportunity to re-offend. "I forgive you for what you did to me me, but innocent people must be protected from you." That is forgiveness, and that is just.

When Christ was talking about turning the other cheek, he was talking about revenge, not self-defense, and about leaving punishment to God and to the civil authorities chosen by the people. He did not mean that you should allow someone to murder you and others. He did NOT say to let the offender strike your grandchild also!

Some people, by their actions, ***throw away*** the rights and priviledges that responsible people must be allowed to enjoy. With every God-given right there is the inherent responsibility to use it wisely, and there must be consequences for being irresponsible.

"Do unto others" means also that if you murder someone, you consent to be put to death.

Parents pass up so many opportunities to teach their children well. If Little Johnny fails to observe the rules of bike safety, don't spank the child; chain up his bike! And if you say you'll chain it up for a week, then six days is not enough.

I wish that I had been aware of all this at 25. I would have been a better parent. I'm one heck of a grandmother though!

Death of the Cross of Jesus Christ
Planned of God from the Foundation of the world.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

In the Wisdom of God, Jesus Christ was Crucified, by intent, for purpose He had to reveal Himself to this world.


To give Life, through death of the Cross
The Crucifixion.

Matthew 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; ...
--------
None of this was possible without the sentence of death for sin, which death sentence is from God Himself.

Taking the curse of the Law on sinners, and changing it into a blessing and path to eternal life.

Death Sentence is on all men, even if Justice lingers, it will come to one and all.

The escape from the 2nd death is provided for through Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Its been provided for, use it or lose it.

Death is coming either way, the death of this fleshly body.

Justice will be served no matter what men do to try and avoid it.

Ac 17:31 -
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Heb 9:27 -
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


To call the death sentence unjust, is the same thing as calling God Himself Unjust.

Only a fool or an unlearned person would dare

wow
never quite seen so many emotional responses on a subject..

the idea that the bible supports capital punishment is the same to me as those who claimed that the bible suppported slavery.

for example:

Slaves, obey your human masters in all things, not only when they are watching you because you want to gain their approval; but do it with a sincere heart because of your reverence for the Lord.
(Colossians 3:22 Today's English Version)

Slaves are to submit themselves to their masters and please them in all things. They must not talk back to them or steal from them. Instead, they must show that they are always good and faithful, so as to bring credit to the teaching about God our Savior in all they do. (Titus 2:9-10 Today's English Version)


more importantly to me is the fact that a majority of protestant churches and the catholic church have all declared capital punishment immoral.

now you can use all the bible verses you want to support capital punishment but just like slavery it is not part of Gods plan for us.


For the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, following Jesus leads to a commitment to restorative justice. This commitment means addressing the hurt of each person whose life has been touched by violent crime. Restorative justice makes the community safer for all.

It is because of this church's ministry with and to people affected by violent crime that we oppose the death penalty. Executions focus on the convicted murderer, providing very little for the victim's family or anyone else whose life has been touched by the crime. Capital punishment focuses on retribution, sometimes reflecting a spirit of vengeance. Executions do not restore broken society and can actually work counter to restoration.


an excerpt on morality of death penalty
First, forgiving someone is not the opposite of finding them guilty. Rather, saying “I forgive you” implies that the “you” in question has done something that needs forgiving. Miroslav Volf puts it this way: “To forgive is to name the wrongdoing and condemn it.” Guilt is implicit in the pardon.

Accepting forgiveness requires that we accept the truth that we have done wrong. So it is not the case that justice and mercy are opposed, that justice tells the truth while mercy pretends a fantasy. God forgives us not by setting justice aside but by justly naming and condemning our sin.

Second, justice is not necessarily “getting what you deserve.” This idea has crept perversely into our readings of Scripture, but it is Greco-Roman rather than biblical in origin.


more of the excerpt and the link
Get-what-you-deserve justice includes two things: a goal of orderly equilibrium where everyone is in the place they deserve, and a strategy of maintaining balance by responding in kind. This Greco-Roman idea conflicts with the Christian conviction that our very existence is an undeserved gift from our creating God. And this strategy is incompatible with our Christian conviction that salvation is available because God refused to respond in kind (Romans 6:23). If creation and redemption are just acts of a just God, then the notion of justice as “just desserts” is incompatible with our faith.

Let’s contrast the Greco-Roman and the biblical ideas of justice when it comes to punishment. The get-what-you-deserve approach to justice translates into a system of retributive punishment that tries to do two things: let the punishment fit the crime and let the punishment fix the crime. A punishment fits the crime by having severity or pain equal to the original injustice: “He got what he had coming.” And if a punishment is fitting, it fixes the crime simply by being carried out. A convict who has completed his jail term says, “I’ve paid my debt,” implying that the moral order of society has been restored and justice has been done.

But Christianity has a God-making-all-things-right approach to justice. This translates into a restorative system that tries to do three things: redress the harm done to the victims of the crime, address the alienation between victim and offender by effecting resolution or even reconciliation, and restore the offender to society so that both are healed. Both the goal and the method are thoroughly relational. (For description and examples of restorative justice, see the website http://www.restorativejustice.org run by Prison Fellowship International, the organization founded by Chuck Colson.)



here is the link


http://www.covchurch.org/companion/articles/2007-march-trut h-passion-and-the-death-penalty

Practicality
I have to admit that my own thoughts on the death penalty have evolved based upon the manner in which society reacts to capital punishment. I am personally in favor of removing violent criminals from any chance to murder my family or friends. The most effective way to do this appears to be capital punishment.

If I could invariably be correct in all cases and afford the cost (as a community), I would be in favor of the death penalty. Today California spends upward of 24 million dollars for the appeal process of blatantly criminal murderers. The money spent on that ONE criminal could pay for the college education of every child in my city, or something of equivalent value to society. I would rather put someone on a forced-labor farm for life and spend tax dollars on productive members of society vice the scum murderers.

Christ's regeneration for the murderer is one of the mysteries I cannot fully comprehend.

it is not Christian
Death is not a punishment to which reflective moral response is possible. A moral response to the certainty of death at sunrise is possible. But waiting to be executed is not the criminal’s punishment; death is. Death terminates the possibility of moral reform. We can believe that an executed prisoner responds as a moral agent after death only if we assume, as many Christians do, that there is conscious life for the individual after death. Such an assumption, however, is not only religious in nature, but is peculiar to certain religions and not others. A government committed to the separation of church and state cannot operate on such an assumption. Therefore, insofar as the state is concerned, death terminates conscious life and cannot be considered a punishment prompting the offender to respond as a moral agent. The death penalty therefore lacks an essential ingredient of just punishment.

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=248

fivo
we rarely agree but i will give you credit for a thoughtful post.

i maintain we can lock up the most vile among us for life without possiblity of parole.

i have no problem with hard labor and life imprisonment, i just don't think killing people for killing other people is a Christian act.

On the subjects of capital punishment..
and abortion. Some misinformed individuals think that one is the same as the other. Not true. But how do they differ in terms of being evil?
Well, one of these is intrinsically evil, whereas the other is not! Would anybody like to guess which is which?

Oh for the love of God!!!
I am so sick of hearing about 22 out of THOUSANDS of guilty-as-sin miscreants!!! WHEN will somebody get the raw data and run the numbers on the much larger body of innocent law abiding people MURDERED BY KILLERS FREED TO KILL AGAIN?!!! It happens all the time and they never talk about that!!

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Quite amazing
How religious lib thinks.

He evidently is unaware of the world we live in that men do really die.

This fact of nature came from someone, and if it was not God, who does he think it came from?

If God has never passed the death sentence, no one would ever die.

Death is a fact of life and part of the very Laws of Nature.
Created by the Creator.

This is exactly what both Jesus Christ and David was talking about in living in the shadow of death.
This world
Death happens due to God's Judgment, its the very procedrual law for the death penalty instituted by the Man of God Moses.

Whats more, religious lib is going to die as he/she is already sentenced to death by the law of nature, given from God.

Those who murder another, just speed up the sentence is all.

bob,
Thank you.

Being in the process of obtaining a Conceal Carry permit leads a responsible person to think deeply and seriously about the value of human life and the ethics of coping with the predators among us.

Thief on the Cross
One was forgiven
One was not
Both died for their crimes under the law and judgment of that day.
And the thief himself said"

"I die JUSTLY"

And Jesus Agreed, but forgave the man, yet did nothing to stop the judgment against his crime.
Nothing has changed with the Lord, nor shall it ever change.

The world has reprobates too, men who teach false doctrines and lies, of which the Bible says to beware of.
I will point out one right here to beware of, religiouslib.


ReligiousLib
"a majority of protestant denominations and the catholic church all consider the death penalty immoral."
But God decreed Israel to impose the death penalty for acts like idolatry, homosexual intercourse, and sexual intercourse between stepmother and stepson. Thus, those churches would be claiming that God is immoral- a contradiction.

talent scout
why can't you have a discussion without personal insults and condemnations.

greater biblical scholars than you and i and men and women of deep religious faith have searched and prayed over this issue.

i have offered many opinions in the preceding posts.

just because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation does not mean they are false prohpets.

none of us will know the full truth until we stand before the Father and to imply otherwise is a greater sin than a mere disagreement on the death penalty.

Crusade
"
i think im correct when i say the pope has said that there might very well be4 times when the death penalty could be morally applied. chck it out. if you really car what the pope says. ioi mean hes just the pope"
A previous pope supported a Crusade against Muslim civilization.

A previous pope supported the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre.

Two Things
(a) "What percentage of our prison population is made up of those who have already been incarcerated for one or more crimes? Some types of criminals should never be allowed another opportunity to offend."

Yesterday in Toronto a man "known to police" i.e. one released yet again ("currently out on bail for violent crimes" is the way the cops, who refuse to name him, put it) cut the throat of a random, innocent woman in a parkign lot and then murdered her husband when the husband came to her aid. Everyone agrees that it was a random, senseless crime. How would forgiving this pond scum and turning him loose one more time assist either the dead man and his wife, or their children? Or the wives, husbands and children of his next totally random, senseless victim?

(b) Pope John Paul II met with the man imprisoned for trying to assassinate him, and forgave him. His Holiness, nevertheless, left the prison alone.

Gone Wrong
"If you don't need scripture to be right, then why not view criminals as people who have gone wrong and need repair? You don't send to the scrapyard your new Aston Martin DB9 because of a failure of one part. Why do that to human beings?"
Because of the risk of harm that might come from those people.

A Childish Conception of God
Those who believe that God is Mr. Sugar-Sweet Nice-Guy who merely shakes the naughty finger at anyone who is in any way harsh about anything have a childish understanding of God. They're not calling upon The LORD. They're calling on Santa Claus -- in the modern conception where coal in the stocking isn't even a remote possibility.

God ordained death as the punishment for sin when Adam fell in Eden.

God proclaimed death as the penalty for the severest crimes when he proclaimed his LAW through Moses.

Christ established that he did not come to do away with the LAW but to fulfill it.

God revealed through the Revelation that there will be a final judgment and that those who reject Christ will not be forgiven nor even granted mercy but rather will be "cast into the outer darkness" -- a death of the soul itself.

God granted us free will to choose good or to choose evil in our deeds. But with freedom comes responsibility. Choose evil and you choose the price that goes with it. Deny the accountability for one's choices and you are denying freedom itself. Moreover, you are setting the evildoers equal to the righteous which should be anathema to all Christians.

Children pray, "Jesus *make* me good." Adults pray, "Jesus, *help* me to be righteous," knowing that the responsibility for their actions is their own.

The line is drawn between us
“In disquisitions of every kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend.” —Alexander Hamilton

religiouslib

I stand against you because I am for the Bible, which you twist.

There is no reasoning with you as you have shut your mind to the truth of the Bible.
The only thing left for me to do is to name you for what you are.
A false teacher.
Now you can think that is just name calling, and I do not care, cause I am actually being as honest on how I see you as I can get.

You are completely dishonest and here teaching lies against the bible.

There is no nice way to put it, any more than when Jesus Himself called the Pharisees hypocrites.
They were called hypocrites cause they are hypocrites, not to name call.
Same for you, you are a liar, and called liar cause you are one.

db77
so you think these are appropriate?

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. (Leviticus 20:10-12)

If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. (Deuteronomy 22:22)



If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death, the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. (Leviticus 21:9)

Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)


Nature is not immoral
God's Laws are found in Nature itself.
Nature can be very cruel, unforgiving for every creature who does not learn to respect these unimpeachable laws, laws that cannot be amended or abolished by any man.

The death penalty is found in nature, cause God placed it there, and it cannot be abolished or explained away as if it does not exist.

Been a death sentence on all mankind since the Garden of Eden.
Then since the days of Noah on all Flesh.
God said all flesh would die, and that is just the way it is.

Now only a fool and a liar would call God and Nature Immoral.

Natural Law rules this world, and can only be avoided for a very short time.
Justice will not be denied on all sin.

Jesus believed in the Death Penalty

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

ReligiousLib
God determines what is appropriate by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

dbz77
exactly my point.

God decides not man, and supporting the statist point of view puts you in contradiction.

Putting religiouslib in context

As if Jesus is speaking to him and not the pharisees.
I am going to replace Pharisee, hypocrite in the following scriptures and allow Jesus to speak directly to religiouslib.


Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then came to Jesus ,"religiouslib" which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye"religiouslib" also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Verse 5 will be edited for clarity by placing religiouslib as the one talking to Jesus.

But ye say 'religiouslib", the death penalty is immoral;so it does not matter if one Honor's his Mother and Father, he cannot be put to death for that, its immoral.So forget it


6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

To dismiss the death penalty is to make the Commandments of God to none effect.
And is exactly what has happened in America today.
"Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition."

let him die the death.
This is from Jesus Christ
In full support of the death sentence

Matthew 15:
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

ReligiousLib
If God decides, then the death penalty is moral due to divine fiat.

If man decides, then the morality of the death penalty is dependent on the whims of those who have the power to decide right or wrong.

Execution of Judgment
Against crime was Given to men to exercise.
All through the Bible the prophets cry out that there is no Judgments being made in righteousness, to execute the Laws of God.
There is no power on this earth that was not ordained of God.
And government was ordained by God Himself to execute His Judgments against evil doers according to the Law.


Romans 13:1-6
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.


"pay ye tribute(taxes) also: for they are God's ministers (of Justice against evil doers)

If you can *ASSURE* me with complete
faith that a horrendous murderer will NEVER, EVER see the light of day with your PWPP, I MIGHT be okay with it. But the truth is you CAN NOT. Some day, down the line, some well meaning but misinformed IDIOT may let that murderer OUT.

It has happened too many times in AMERICAN history to be discounted. In Massachusettes, the governor pardoned a murderer who - predictably murdered again.

I saw something once that states my postition best:
If you let this person go, then you should feel free to take him into your home and abide with him there - as you feel no need for defense from him.

If, on the other hand, you believe the person to be a heinous murderer, you MUST approve the death penalty for him because you cannot abide the THOUGHT of him ever being released out into society.

for he beareth not the sword in vain
The sword is made for war, for vengeance, and government was given the sword of Justice, to execute on evil doers.
Under the Law, and the due process of law.

The real world, and not the utopia of mens imaginations like religeouslib.
1 Timothy 1:5-11
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

What humanists call Progressive
God calls it Backsliding
This is the age of deceit, and that is not good news.

Mankind is not progressing forward, he is sliding backwards.

The world has no new morality for today, it has the old immorality of the past.


2 Timothy 3:
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

And this world is fast approaching its darkest hours

Ro 11:25 -
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The fullness of the Gentiles is the fulness of iniquity, and its here and gaining "progress" according to the wise of this world.

.

2 Peter 2:3-6
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


The death sentence will never be abolished, it waits patiently
One escape is all there is, Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6:
7 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:



Outstanding Article!
Tallman brings objective and well-reasoned arguments to the capital punishment debate.

On a side note, while I generally dismiss "slipery slope" theories, eliminating capital punishment would provide ammunition for the anti-prison crowd, increasingly vocal as of late. Tallman correctly reveals the possible applications of anti-death penalty theories towards LIPWPP. The criminal justice system faces significant challenges from the myopic left.

Religous lib
the victim being the person who was murdered cannot forgive the murderer. There can be no restoration between these two. One is dead by the hands of the other. healing for that person is impossible. His family can choose to forgive, which without God's grace would be impossible. Forgiveness doesn't mean punishment should not be merited out according to the offense. And just because you choose to forgive some offense does not mean the offender has changed, he may still be a murderer at heart.

Jesus supported the entire Law of Moses.
Jesus DID support the death penalty and one only need do some study in Jewish history. He was a devout Jew and followed Jewish Law, even keeping the law of resting on the Sabbath in death (he rested on Saturday which is the Sabbath, and rose on Sunday morning). There's no doubt Jesus supported the death penalty since it was part of the law of Moses and Jesus said he did NOT come to abolish the Law of Moses.

As far as Jesus preventing the adulterous woman from being stoned to death, this was a mob scene ready to rush to judgment, not a state execution. And when Jesus hung on the cross he never denounced the punishment of the thieves hanging next to him. Jesus was crucified without having had committed a crime, but the other 2 did.

Also, you might want to read Revelation when Jesus comes back as the Lion of Judah (no longer the suffering servant he came the first time as) to slay the nations, and many, many people not written in the Book of Life will die. Then there’s Isaiah where Jesus comes back as the Lion of Judah and kills all of Gaza and he’s drenched in blood from doing so. And Peter in the garden carried a sword, the one he cut the guard’s ear off with. Why would Peter be carrying a sword, if not to protect himself?

Also, to this day if an animal kills a human being, the animal is put to death, this law originated in the bible where God set this rule.

Anyone who thinks Jesus does not support the death penalty has watched too many Hollywood movies where Jesus is depicted as a hippie with blue-eyes and long hair wearing sandals and waving a peace sign. PLEASE do some research specifically on Jewish Law. Jesus was a JEW not a hippie. Study Jewish law and you will know what Jesus believed. He is called the Word of God, and the Word is the entire Old Testament in which the law of Moses is.

Better yet, Talent scout...
what is happening is this: man is either ascending or descending.
It is either Serviam or Non-Serviam.
Not my will but Thy Will be done, LORD!

MoniQue
Didn't the Jewish law call for an eye for an eye.....etc. But didn't Jesus, in His new Covenant, teach to turn the other cheek? Love your enemies; do good to your enemies....??

Where To Read The Entire Series
Just for the sake of clarity, this column is actually Part 9 in a series of 11. For whatever reason, Townhall never did publish Part 7 (which lays out the Old Testament case) or Part 8 (which lays out the New Testament case). If you want to read them all, you can do so at my articles blog:
http://andrewtallmanshowarticles.blogspot.com/ (Links are on the right side)
or at Crosswalk.com:
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11574674/
(Links are at the bottom)
I hope this helps those of you who have been following the series. I'm sorry for the inconvenience. Thank you for all your insightful comments both in these posts and to my email.

Sincerely,
Andrew

Two different subjects
The Roman writes: 5:35 PM

Didn't the Jewish law call for an eye for an eye.....etc. But didn't Jesus, in His new Covenant, teach to turn the other cheek? Love your enemies; do good to your enemies....??
---------
ts:
Were addressed
To love an enemy does not cancel out the Law.
You cannot take one Statement of the Lord and apply it to just anything one can find in the Bible.
Not does turning the other cheek cancel out the law.
This speaks more to personal reactions, and NOTHING as to Law.

If one could take one scripture and applyu it just to just any subject, I can show where all of us are to hang ourselves to be like Judas.

Bible says Judas hanged himself.
Another place Jesus said go and do likewise.

To learn how to study the scriptures is essential to understand it.

Take one subject at a time and find every scripture in the book that mentions that subject, then and only then can one begin to learn of the wisdom of it all.
Look up all the scriptures that address the subject of Law, Judgment, Justice
Its an eye opener.
2Ti 2:15 -
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Very important part of the above:
"rightly dividing the word of truth."

Give'em The Gas Pipe
When the murderer is dead, there is no chance that some liberal judge will decide that the dirtbag should be eligible for parole.

Remember Rose Bird, Joseph Grodin and Cruz Reynoso? The were the liberal judges on the California Supreme Court that commuted Charles Manson's death sentence thereby making him eligible for parole.

Fortunately, the people of California, in a spasm of common sense, recalled all three of these judicial activists.


ts
The bible also says to kill homosexuals, witches, those who work on the sabbath, adulterers and non-jews/christians.

Are these acts also acceptable to you?

DA
God defines right and wrong by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

dbz77
God defines right and wrong by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.---

That is not answering the question. That is skirting the issue. If god tells you to fly a jet into a building, does that make it right?


The deterrence effect
From the amnestyusa website:

"A September 2000 New York Times survey found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty.

FBI data shows that 11 of the 12 states without capital punishment in 2006 had homicide rates below the national average."


Not only is the death penalty obviously not a successful deterrent, there is something else going on in states that have it. Is it paranoia?

http://www.amnestyusa.org/facts-and-figures/the-death-penal ty-and-deterrence/page.do?id=1101085&n1=3&n2=28&n3=99

Stuart

DA
"
That is not answering the question. That is skirting the issue. If god tells you to fly a jet into a building, does that make it right?"
Of course.

Morality is morality, no matter if we agree with it.

Deterrence
There are a lot of comments that the death penalty is not a deterrence to crime. However, a police friend of mine said they had a chart on the wall of their ready room that showed the number of crimes (total) each day. He said it was easy to tell when a criminal died. The crime rate would start off low and increase faster and faster each day until a criminal was excuted, shot by a police officer, or shot by a homeowner. Then it would go almost to zero to start over. It made no difference if there was an execution or the criminal was shot. But it did convince him and the other police officers that death was a big deterrent to crime of all categories.

Hi 45caliber
Re: Deterence

That is very interesting. So it looks like judicial execution could have a short-term deterrent effect on all types of crime and that might be expected from human nature. The long-term trend of higher murder rates in hanging states remains.

I would have thought that since most murders are domestic and carried out in a blind of 'rage' or when the brain has be hijacked by the reptilian part, there is little deterent effect likely - most of the time murderers do not have the presence of mind to stop to consider the implications of their actions.

Would there be enough detail here to determine if it is capital crimes that decrease after an execution? Most crimes do not attract the death penalty and you can't count shooting a home invader as the death penalty as such. If homicide does not drop, then the deterent effect claimed of the death penalty on capital crimes is actually not there.

Stuart

Stu:
They only kept records of total crimes a day. That includes things like assault, robbery, etc. It did not include speeding tickets, etc. That is about all I can tell you. I think it might be interesting to see other police departments do the same thing. This was done in Little Rock, AR.

capital punishment
I believe in capital punishment for the most severe cases--those that have been truly proven. I live in Pa. we have capital punishment--some of the mose horendous crimes that could be done to people have been prosecuted here. The prisons are over loaded--the newspaper says mr criminal has found the Lord--horray--then let him enjoy the trip. Our real problem is we hire these governors-who do not accomplish their job descriptions and carry out the punishment.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.