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Thursday, December 20, 2007
Andrew Tallman :: Townhall.com Columnist
What if Mormonism Was the Issue?
by Andrew Tallman
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Charles Krauthammer writes, “The Constitutional injunction against religious tests is meant to make citizens understand that such tests are profoundly un-American.” Well, Chuck, I’m growing tired of you and others telling me what I may or may not consider in my voting decision.

I care about a candidate’s religion. It’s not the only thing I care about, but, still, I care about it. And I’m about fed up with people telling me I’m a bigot and un-American because I happen to have a different idea of what matters in my decision for whom to vote than they do. How about this: I won’t say you’re un-American for ignoring religion if you stop saying I’m un-American for considering it.

I care that Mike Huckabee is an ordained Baptist. I happen to think Baptists are wrong about a lot, but I still care that he is. I care that Hillary Clinton is a full-fledged non-Wesleyan United Methodist. That tells me a lot about her. I care that Barack Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ. I care that Rudy Giuliani is a Catholic, mostly because of the fact that he is so disconnected from the core doctrines of his own faith. This tells me a lot about him. Yes, he is rebellious, but he’s also stubborn like a mule. Rudy would never have had to give the JFK speech because it would be preposterous to think he cares what the Pope thinks about his political views.

And, as it happens, I care that Mitt Romney is a Mormon.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. I could still vote for him. Though I’m a non-denominational Evangelical Christian (since you asked), I’m not of the camp who thinks that Latter Day Saints are members of some Satanic cult in league with the Freemasons and the Bilderbergers.

But what if I thought they were?

If I did in fact believe that a candidate’s religion were evil, would you really be so audacious as to tell me that I’m not allowed to consider that when I enter the voting booth? For all the conservative lip-service given to protecting religion from government, that sure sounds to me like you’re saying I’m not allowed to bring my religious views to the ballot box with me.

I would not vote for a Scientologist. They make good movies, especially when John Woo is directing, but I don’t want them running NASA. I would not vote for a Christian Scientist. I love their newspaper, but I don’t want them overseeing the FDA. I would not vote for a Muslim. At this moment in world history, I’m having a hard time really believing that Islam is compatible with the notions of freedom from government coercion that we cherish in this country. Most Muslims and I agree deeply about private morality, but I don’t share their belief that God only cares what the society looks like and not whether freedom is allowed as part of the process of getting there. And perhaps most obviously, I don’t want to vote for an atheist. I was one, and I am no longer. I do not want to deliberately put someone in the White House (or any other marble hall) who does not consider himself accountable to any god at all.

Allow me to clarify myself. By saying, “I would not vote for” them, I’m actually saying I would prefer not to have to. This is not a strict pass/fail grading system. These are merely strong considerations for me because they pertain to character and judgment, and other factors could certainly counterbalance them. Still, these are strong preferences.

So do these views make me a bigot? If so, then bigot I am, but I’m hard pressed to draw the further hasty generalization that all bigotry is bad. My Webster’s says that a bigot is someone “obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.” That sounds like an apt description of Martin Luther, Saint Paul, any Pope and even my Savior, quite frankly. It certainly doesn’t mean a racist, which is the similarity implied by the tone of the word use.

Also, lest you mis-stereotype me, I’m probably the most tolerant and open-minded evangelical you’ll meet in your life. I’ll talk with anyone. I’ll be friends with anyone. And I don’t feel threatened by a wildly pluralistic society such as we enjoy in America.

But that’s not the point. When I go into a voting booth, I’m not picking a friend or a conversation partner. I’m picking a leader. I want leaders that I would trust my money and my children with … since I sort of am. And that means that I consider a person’s religious views. Because religion matters, and it matters to me. Why is that so wrong?

“But, Andrew, don’t you know that the Constitution prohibits a religious test for elected office in the United States?” Of course I do. But do you realize that there is a vast difference between officially requiring such a test and me privately considering the results of such a test? You seem to think that simply because it is illegal to require a religious test for office that it should also be illegal to consider a candidate’s religion. Should it also be illegal to ask about it or for him to describe it to us?

“Well, I didn’t say these things should be illegal. I merely meant that you’re being un-American and neglecting the great principles of the Constitution by using them yourself.” Really? Are you sure that you want to take a position which states there is no difference at all between what we do officially through the Constitutional and what we do in our own private judgment?

Swearing is protected speech. Does this mean I’m un-American if I consider a candidate’s predilection to profanity in my vote? Blasphemy is protected speech. May I not consider a candidate’s irreverent references to God in my vote? Pornography is protected press. May I not consider whether someone is a pornographer or porn consumer in my vote? The Constitution only requires that someone be 35 to be President. May I not, therefore, consider youth or elderliness as a factor in my vote?

As I understand democracy, I am free to vote how I think best. Perhaps I’ll vote based on age. Perhaps I’ll vote based on gender. Perhaps I’ll vote based on policies, past record, education, party affiliation, or height. Some of these factors are better than others to consider, but just because I agree that we should not have a State religion, this doesn’t mean I should become religion-blind in my judgments about leadership capacity. Precisely because I believe religion (or even its lack) is central to who a person is, I not only will consider it, but I expect lots of other people to consider it as well. The ones who ignore it can only achieve consistency in their views by believing that religion can and should be walled off from every important area of a man’s life. I’m probably more troubled by such aberrant theology than I am by the non-believer. They would have us believe that God exists but shouldn’t matter. Even the atheist is not so foolish.

I’ve no doubt that this column will be misunderstood by many. They will think this is an attack on Mitt Romney and Mormons more generally. They’ll probably accuse me of opening the door for anti-Semitism. And I’m sure they’ll be saying that I want to make every religion other than mine illegal.

They will be wrong.

Let me repeat. I can easily see myself voting for Mitt Romney. In fact, I spend a fair amount of time convincing those who object to his Mormonism that they should not. Not because religion doesn’t matter, but because they’re wrong in thinking this particular religion is wrong enough to disqualify him. I know too many Mormons to be overly worried about a Mormon President, even though I also have many questions about this very secretive faith.

If I do vote for Mitt, I will do so in part because of his commitment to religion, even one other than my own. But that’s the point. I am considering his religion in my decision, and I am very frustrated by hearing so many conservatives tell me and others who disagree with me in my assessment of Mormonism that we are all a bunch of unpatriotic bigots because we happen to think that what a man believes and practices with regard to God is important stuff.

Truth be told, your bigotry on this point against me is at least as distasteful as my bigotry in considering religion, if either is bigotry at all.

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About The Author

Andrew Tallman is host of The Andrew Tallman Show on AM 1360 KPXQ from 5-7PM weekdays in Phoenix, AZ.

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Andew Tallman threads the needle.
You are absolutly correct about a few things: First, this will probably misunderstood by most who read it; Second, you are right that in one way religion does matter.

If in your personal judgement a persons religion is so strange as to bring the question of the persons sanity into view. Well what can one say? The problem with this issue is: who gets to decide what is withing the spectrum of "Normal".

Many people (some are bigots) are saying that Mormonism fails the Normal test. When Larry O'Donnell goes wiggers on McLaughlin calling all Mormons crazy, racist, liars. Well, I think that is easily labelled bigotry. Anyway, this is a slippery slope. I guess its fine to debate the religion of a candidate but it always gets ugly. I'd hoped we could rise above that. Maybe not?

Great article
The question of Mormonism and bigotry is interesting in the context of how you evaluated other religions.

In essence, the question should be: How would policy be shaped based of the faith of the individual running for office.

In this case I can't think of a single policy that would be impacted by Romney's faith. Sure, he might encourage policies that are beneficial for faith based organizations. But that isn't unique to the Mormon church. All churches would benefit from it.

If you want proof of this fact just check his record in Mass. Can you point to any legislation that he supported which promoted exclusively the LDS church? Or check out the records of the other Congressmen and Senators who are Mormon. What have they supported that most conservative Christians also wouldn't appreciate?

The point is you can disagree with theology. However, the real question that needs to be addressed is how does that theology influence political decisions.

Mormon Missionaries Debating A Georgia P

Good Comments
I am a member of the mormon faith. I agree that it does matter. I won't vote for Romney soley because he is mormon. I won't not vote for Huck because he is a Baptist.

There is too much at stake for all of to not endorse the most quailified candidate based upon religion. We need strong leadership in his country and someone needs to stand up and give it to us.

The mormon bashing is getting a little old. You have to ask yourself how many posts you see were mormons bash evangelicals. It is not in our nature to bash others all the time.

Keep up the good work. I want all the far and balanced reporting I can get

I will vote for Mitt
If he is the nominee, he has my vote. He is a decent man who would be a credible alternative to any Democrat. I don't see him as a standard-bearer for his Church. In fact, I doubt he really knows what his Church teaches (most Mormons don't).

He would make a good president. I just hope his Mormon base touts the merits of his policies and not the "virtues" of his religion. He's a Republican candidate; he's a good man; he's a Mormon. If he becomes President, maybe the rigors of the Office will drive him to become a Christian. One can hope...

"What if Mormonism Was The Issue?"
This was an outstanding Op Ed piece by a very intelligent fellow, Andrew Tallman. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I can say he is right on in all but one assertion--that is that Mormonism is a very secretive faith. I would aver that this religion is the most open and honest of all religions. That which goes on in temples is explained to millions of people yearly when hoards of people are invited to tour the insides of Mormon temples about to be dedicated. Briefly, it has to do with an eternal principle made simple by the words,"families are forever." Mormons do family history work of living and dead and believe the Bible tells them to seal the living with the dead in families which go clear back to Adam and Eve. They believe that the hereafter will be a bright, positive place for the righteous who will live in family units under the leadership of the Savior of mankind. Anyone can learn about what Latter-day Saints believe and first and foremost it is in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, our Savior and redeemer. If Tallman or anyone else wants to know more, that information should come from the church not from one of its detractors. This church has more than 50,000 missionaries laboring throughout the world. Just hook up with two of them (they teach in pairs) and you will find out what it's all about. You will be amazed at the simplicity and beauty of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No, it is not a secretive faith, but is open to all the world to come, see, and partake if they want to. Don White, Windermere, FL

Great article
I agree that each voter should be evaluating each candidate on all levels, including their religion (or lack thereof).

I think it is great that, for example, Romney was "forced" to give a speech explaining how his faith would inform his actions as president. We need that kind of up-front discussion from each candidate. Nobody should be allowed to hide behind some cooked-up argument that it's somehow off-limits or un-american.

Bigotry and spite
I am not a Mormon, nor a Roman Catholic.I would surely prefer to vote for a person who was not pretending to be a Mormon, rather than a person who was only pretending to be a Roman Catholic. Consider how much our politicians pretend, Larry Craig apparently pretending to be heterosexual, the Clintons pretending to have an intact marriage, no doubt some unbelievers pretending to be believers, whatever they think will get them elected. I am sure that there must be some Mormons who are not nice. I leave it to members of that church to describe them. I never met any. Every coworker, neighbor or client I ever knew who was Mormon was sober, upright, cheerful, hard-working, and singularly lacking in spite. I realize that Mrs. Clinton would think I was jabbing at her, but, well, there you have it, don't you?

I (a Mormon) agree with Tallman & BJsGue
This is a good article and does not evidence bigotry.

Except in referring to Freemasonry as a "Satanic cult." I know little about the Freemasons, except that such notable great Americans as Washington, Franklin, and Paul Revere were Freemasons.

To me that is evidence that linking Freemasonry with Satan is entirely unmerited. I believe "by their fruits ye shall know them," and these great men brought forth excellent works. Indeed, 3 John 1:11 says in part: "He that doeth good is of God."

I also read that Freemasons of the Founding Fathers' time referred to God as "The Great Architect," which is congruent with the title "The Creator."

Theology vs. Faith in Action
Judging a man's character by what you think you know about the particular religion he belongs to is prejudicial thinking. Now, there's two kinds of prejudice:

1.) There is the necessary kind of prejudice that helps animals (humans included) survive instead of just blundering into the same threatening situation time after time. This is why we figure we shouldn't go poking our fingers into a strange snake's face - they bite.

2.) There is also the unnecessary prejudice that assaults human dignity. That sort of prejudice is when we are lazy enough to settle for stereotypes instead of judging a man's character by his actions.

When people wag fingers at the Theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to dismiss Mitt Romney's bid for the presidency, they are guilty of the latter kind of prejudice - the kind that assaults human dignity. Mitt's actions speak for themselves. There is no evidence of Malice or even Threat from his personal faith. There haven't been any odd policy choices that could be attributed to being a member of the LDS Church.

Reason dictates that with the Evidence we have of Mitt Romney's own actions we should turn our Skepticism to claims that "He shouldn't be president, because he's a Mormon." The burden of proof is laid at the feet of those who claim he is somehow insufficiently qualified due to his religion - and it is a heavy burden.

Those who would skip past all that and simply decry him for his LDS beliefs are guilty of the kind of prejudice that assaults human dignity. It is a free country, and they can certainly vote with their prejudice. Likewise, the rest of us can see their words and deeds laid bare before us and judge those words and deeds to be wrong.

I won't vote for Romney
So long as Romney and Mormons insist that Mormonism is simply another Christian denomination and the traditional, orthodox Christian faith should welcome them as fellow believers in Christ, I will not vote for him. Such a position is simply not true and it is either ignorant or dishonest to call Christians bigots for not accepting Mormons as fellow Christians when they define Jesus and Christianity in a thoroughly unorthodox manner. Supporting Romney would only further normalize Mormanism in the eyes of the public as simply being another denomination within the Christian tradition when it is clearly not. Romney is free to believe the Mormon position, but Christians are also free to reject him for helping to push the Mormon view that they are "just Christians" like everyone else.

Evangelical Christians
and Mormons.

I've known lots of each.

Given a choice, I'd rather hang with the Mormons.

Join the 21st Century
>Supporting Romney would only further normalize Mormanism in the eyes of the public<

Mormonism is already normalized in the eyes of the public, except for a small percentage of Evangelical blowhards, mostly jealous because the LDS Church is growing while the others are sgrinking.

I'm Your Guy
I've been labeled a bigot for two days in Medved's forum because I had the audacity to say that I won't vote for Mitt Romney and Mormonism is the issue.

I hope that your much more eloquent explanation will change some minds, but I doubt it.

My reasoning is simple. Mormonism teaches that the entire history of my faith is invalid or part of a "great apostasy." Giants like Aquinas, Augustine and Jerome were then either evil or stupid.

Someone who professes to be devoted to these ideas, to me, has serious judgement issues. So given the choices in this particular primary, Mormonism to me is a disqualifier. That doesn't make me a bigot.

If Mitt gets to the general election, however I will certainly vote for him over Hilary or Obama. But for now I'd rather go with the lapsed Catholic or the Baptist Preacher.

HM


Voting for Pastor
AnimalFarm1984 writes:

"Such a position is simply not true and it is either ignorant or dishonest to call Christians bigots for not accepting Mormons as fellow Christians when they define Jesus and Christianity in a thoroughly unorthodox manner. Supporting Romney would only further normalize Mormanism in the eyes of the public as simply being another denomination within the Christian tradition when it is clearly not."

I gather from this then that voting against Mitt Romney is, rather than a civic duty to select the person who best serves as Chief of the Executive Branch, an exercise in doing everything in your power to silence and marginalize a religious minority with whom you disagree on a Theological Basis?

Sorry, but that's EXACTLY what the Article VI was trying to prevent from ever becoming law. I'm grateful to God that enough Americans abhorred your view that we don't live in a nation where only members of the Anglican Communion are considered fit for public office.

God only knows what sort of abuse such a slippery slope would demand you heap upon law-abiding and benevolent Jews and Moslems. Certainly, don't ever let one of those "dirty Moslems" on your local school board or town council. After all, they misrepresent what Jesus stands for and you wouldn't want to legitimize their "perverted" faith by letting "one of their kind" have a position of responsibility in government.

If it wasn't for the Civil Rights Acts you'd be obligated not to hire "their kind" for any sort of employment either. After all, you'd just be "normalizing" them.

Or we could turn the logic around - why sully a perfectly good religion by make Politicians (widely reviled as a corrupt, worldly, and immoral bunch) be their most prominent public figures? Corrupt Catholic and Protestant politicians give their respective Faiths a bad name, after all.

Mormons as Christians
Mr Animal Farm.
Mormons do not want to be considered as evangelicals or as orthodox christians.

The definition of a Christian is when someone accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. This is the central belief of Mormon idealogy.

I saw an interesting article today in US News and World Report. Evangelicals are trying to become more orthodox by going back to traditional christians ceremonys such as taking communion.

Can't we just all accept one another for who we are and the values that we have.

I'm Your Guy!
Thanks Andrew Tallman for more eloquently making this point. You see I've been getting labeled a bigot by LDS members for two days on Medved's Blog because in this primary, I won't vote for Mitt Romney and Mormonism IS the issue.

Mormonism's "great apostasy" is a complete rejection of my entire belief system. Intellectual Giants like Jerome, Augustine, and Aquinas are then either seen as evil or stupid.

Sorry but when there are other choices, I'd rather not vote for the guy who believes this.

In the general election, if Mitt makes it, I will obviously think differently, but for now I'll stick with either the Preacher or the Cafeteria Catholic.

and guess what...I'm not a bigot.

HM

animalfarm
I see you don't like the mormons as traditional christians...

Fine,,, in your eyes view them as ultratraditional christians.

I highly doubt they would want to be known as the same as you, any more than you want to be known as them.


sorry for the double post....
I'm on a train, at first it didn't take, I thought I had to write it again, but then it did.

whatever!


As a Catholic ...
... the last thing I need is another prominent public figure claiming to be Catholic while violating major social and sacramental teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. From a purely religious perspective Rudy is just adding to the problem of people concluding that the Catholic Church's prohibitions against Abortion and Divorce aren't something to be taken seriously. After all, if the Catholics don't believe in it, why should we?

If we're going to apply a religious test, Rudy should receive 0.00% of the Roman Catholic vote just because of his disgraceful, unrepentant transgressions against the teaching of the Holy See while still claiming to be Catholic for political advantage. The Baptists wouldn't be getting any support from the Catholics either, since they denounce the apostolic traditions and blasphemy against the person of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist with their heretical refusals towards transubstantiation.

But I'm not going to apply a test of religious affiliation. I'm going to judge each man by his words and deeds and compare them to my own moral concerns - respect for human life, respect for human dignity, respect for human freedom, etc.

Thank you!
While the title of your article is suspect, I want to thank you for making a point. Religion is and issue on which each person may decide - whether or not it is important to them to follow or whether or not a candidates religion makes them confortable or queasy, for example. However, the constant national discussion of each candidate's religion and beliefs is something that I do not like. I do believe that there are many people in the national spotlight who WANT positive attention on their own religioni or negative attention on someone else's religion. I hope that we can change it to reporting on what each candidate's religion is, then let each individual choose what to do with it. Let's not all smear each other's beliefs, please.

Be reasonable
Huh? "Evangelicals are trying to become more orthodox by going back to traditional christians ceremonys such as taking communion."

When did we stop?

You Be Reasonable
As a Christian, I can accept people for who they are and their values but I will not be silent when it comes to false religions. Maybe it's not a cult but it is not Christian.

Being a reasonable voter
john v writes:
> As a Christian, I can accept people for who they are and their values but I will not be silent when it comes to false religions. Maybe it's not a cult but it is not Christian. <

No one is asking you to be silent. You can preach the virtue of your faith or the deficiency of another until your heart is content. Asking those questions and engaging in those arguments is at the heart Theology.

However, discrediting someone's ability to do a job based on your Theological disagreements is completely different than opposing their taking the position due to policy differences or disagreements over over ethical judgments related to the service.

You can disagree on Theology and still share fundamental moral values and have the same policy goals for the United States.

Be Reasonable
"The definition of a Christian is when someone accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior"

You are simply playing with words here. You know darn well that Mormons mean something entirely different by the terms "Jesus Christ" and "personal Savior" and that those differences actually contradict and reject the traditional definition of these words within Christianity. You want to redefine Christianity on your terms, and then be upset when people don't accept your redefinition. To me this is either very dishonest or extremely ignorant of what Christianity has always held.

When Romney appealed to the shared belief as followers of Jesus it is he who appealed to me on the grounds that we share the same faith. With this I strongly disagree and if he is going to push the Mormon agenda that seeks to lay claim to a shared faith then I will reject his claim, and I won’t vote for him. He is simply playing politics with my deeply held beliefs. It’s bad enough having Mormon missionaries show up on my door to tell me that all of Christianity was an abomination until Joseph Smith came along to set the record straight. I don’t need a president that will promote this ridiculous notion every time he claims as a Mormon we share a common faith in “Jesus” when he knows darn well that the “Jesus” and “Christianity” of Joseph Smith is entirely different from the one which is truly shared among the wide variety of Christian denominations that really do respect the orthodox position of the Church.

King Liberal
Separation of church and state means the government or its representatives can exclude Romney from running because he is a Mormon. The Freedom of Religion guarantee in the constitution means I, as an individual citizen, am perfectly free to judge someone based upon their religion. If we followed your suggestion that the constitution does not permit this then you would be the one imposing a religious test by the government, the test that we all be a Pluralist or Secularist.

If that were true
Be Reasonable writes: 6:50 PM

The definition of a Christian is when someone accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. This is the central belief of Mormon idealog.

-----

Yet the Mormons teach this satanic doctrine.
And if there is any bigotry it comes from this doctrine of devils.

Here is your "latter" day "saints" doctrine.
1 Timothy 4:
1- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

quote the LDS Official Site:
---
The Restoration of Truth
The Great Apostasy
Apostasy Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members, and other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles?.

The Apostles were killed and the priesthood authority—including the keys to direct and receive revelation? for the Church—was taken from the earth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3).

Because the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority and revelation, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel? as established by Jesus Christ was lost, resulting in a period called the Great Apostasy?.
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-resto ration-of-truth/the-great-apostasy

john v
Don't back down JohnV ("Maybe it's not a cult but it is not Christian.")

Mormonism, to put it simply, is a cult of Christianity because they do not ascribe to the Deity of Jesus Christ--that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, the God-Man.

they often change and twist the meaning of Words in an attempt to appear more mainstream than they really are.

But "Christian" churches all hold this one truth as central and irrefutable. The Lutherans, the Baptists, the Presbys, even the Catholics.

That Jesus is The Christ,God himself--The ONLY God, is the watershed point-- the commonality of Christian faith. Deny that, and you can call yourself something, but not Christian.

Religion is NOT a personal matter
King Liberal writes:
> Religion is a personal matter. <

Well, it is a personal decision. The candidate's person, however, is a political matter. A person's religious beliefs (or a lack thereof) can shape his or her moral reasoning. This, however, will be shown by the person's words and deeds more reliably than comparing their proclaimed religious affiliation against some Cliff Notes.

> When you apply for a job nobody asks you if you're a Christian. <

That's not true. When you apply for a job at an organization with a religious mission you most certainly can (and should) be asked if you are an adherent of that religion. The Parish secretary of a Roman Catholic Parish should be a Catholic in good standing within that Parish.

But no, no one asks you if you are a Christian before letting you drive a school bus, perform an audit, or take responsibility for the lives of our soldiers in the U.S. Armed Forces.

> Unity is something you cons are sorely lacking right now. <

Lord help us, I hope we certainly DON'T have unity in the primary season. If we just gave in to the myths of "consensus" and didn't put our candidates through the wringer in the primary we'd be just as bad as the Group-Think Left.

Silly
King Liberal writes: 7:24 PM


Charles Krauthammer is right. And this excerise in eviserating each other over religious beliefs is only going to be your downfall in 08. Unity is the key to sucess.

-------

I can choose not to vote for a candidate if he says he is a liberal, let alone if he is Mormon.

What is really bad when you have a liberal Mormon running as a conservative like Romney.


I'm a Mormon
I'm a Mormon and I totally agree with this column. I have no problem whatsoever with someone not voting for Romney because he's a Mormon. I think it's stupid and short-sighted, but people have every right to do so. I didn't even support Romney until fairly recently, when I was able to learn more about each candidate. When Romney declared for the presidency, I didn't know much about him other than that he ran the Olympics. I won't vote for someone just because he's Mormon (Harry Reid for example), and I definitely would think twice before voting for people whose values do not coincide with my own. In my voting life, I'd say that by far the candidates that I've voted for have been protestant or evangelical Christians, and I have voted for them without hesitation because they are closely aligned with my values. The more I've come to learn about Romney, the more I've come to support his candidacy for president; I'm still not 100% decided though. I think I kind of liked Tancredo better. :) I definitely do not like Huckabee, because despite the fact that he's an evangelical Christian, he's still wrong on just about every issue, at least from my conservative viewpoint. I'm not a single-issue voter, and just because Huckabee is pro-life is not enough to get my vote when he's wrong on practically everything else.

The only problem I have with the recent talk about Romney and Mormonism is that virtually every time it's brought up, most or nearly all of the "information" about Mormonism is twisted, false or even slanderous. You call my religion secretive. Call me up anytime and I'll be happy to talk to you at length about what we believe.

Mormonism
For the umpteenth time to the umpteenth person. Of course individuals can vote for whomsoever they like based on whatever criteria is important to them. What Pulitzer Prize Winner Dr. Krauthmammer (or "Chuck" as you call him) was objecting to was politicians in the political process using religious tests ("Christian Leader---vote for me") to solicit votes and galvanize a base.

Irrational and wrong.
Just as we should be color-blind and judge a person by their character, we should also be faith-blind. Anything else is bigotry.

All faiths, whether you agree with them or not, are equal under the law. To single out a few for exclusion is discrimination. Sorry, it does not matter how weird you think they are, it is counter to the constitution.

Deciding who to vote for
Is not up to the law, but the voter to decide, understand?
Voter Booth is not a Court Room
You are not the Judge either way, get it?
-------

Lori writes: 8:10 PM


All faiths, whether you agree with them or not, are equal under the law.
--
Showing she does not know the difference in law and right to decide who to vote for.
All can decide to not vote for a candidate if they do not like the way he combs his hair, legal too.


Stupid, but legal.
No law against stupidity.
If there was, everyone would be in prison.
I will not vote for Romney for two reasons.
He is a liberal and a Mormon.




Merry Christmas, talent scout,&America
Yes,

Fred Thompson is Ronald Reagan, minus Sandra Day O'Conner and amnesty.

He will take it slow, but Hillary will be demolished by this man.

Plus, you get Zach Wamp :)

http://www.fred08.com/FredCast/FredCastSummary.aspx#

And Jeri Thompson, for first lady :o

http://www.fred08.com/FredCast/FredCastSummary.aspx#


And great political ads, 2! :D

http://www.fred08.com/FredCast/FredCastSummary.aspx#



Have yourself a Hunt for Red Christmas,

love, paulina xox

Ps, when asked what the problem with education is, he said the NEA!
Just looking at him stops global warming!

An interesting article.....
Yet I"ll admit, I'm a skeptic. Were people right to embrace Know-Nothingism, since afterall many of them believed Catholicism was evil?

What if I spent considerable amount of type lambasting Huckabee as a baptist heretic, and that he should be excluded from political office because of this, I somehow have an inlincation that Huckabee supporters would be up in arms, and waving Article VI around like crazy. And rightly so.

Until I can be convinced that people would not object to a religious test being applied against them (and being rejected upon account of that religious test), I'll concede, a lot of this I view as little more than special pleading.

Kmtierny
I beleive the religious test allows that anyone can run.

(Case in point, Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney, and heck, a Muslim can, and has, run in our country.)

Not to split hairs, but folks can then, actually, VOTE for anyone they like.

Hope that helps!

sorry kmtierny,
I misread your meaning and I appologize.

I began supporting Tancredo/Hunter
aDNA writes: 8:36 PM
Merry Christmas, talent scout,&America
Yes,

Fred Thompson is Ronald Reagan, minus Sandra Day O'Conner and amnesty.


------
Tancredo dropping out leaves Hunter/Thompson/Paul
I will support any of these men over Romney, Rudy or Huck.
Even if Huck is the only one who believes a lot like I do.

I cannot support his illegal alien rights and his tax raises in Arkansas.
Merry Christimas

Yes I've Said This Before
After you travel through these blogs for a while you realize that there are "professional" bloggers that move from thread to thread spouting trash with the intention of creating hate and anger. Rush calls them "seminar callers". Well these are "seminar bloggers" who are likely paid to stir up conservative discord.

Remember and realize that many of the big mouths on these blogs are only here to stir up religious hatred between otherwise good people. We need to knock off the religious intolerance already. We are playing into the hands of the libs. Scan the words of these anti-s whether pro-Christian or pro-Mormon they are only spreading hate and intolerance. Think about it, we all know good evangelicals’ and Mormons, would they talk like this. Of course not!

Remember, if someone is spouting divisive rhetoric he/she is probably a lib trying to drive us apart so the path will open to ram Hillary or Obama down our throats.

Lori you are Irrational and Wrong
To say all faiths are equal and we should treat all equally is absurd. If a follower of Radicalized Islam was running or a Arian Racist Christian Cult were running for president, you would certainly judge that person by the religion they follow. In fact, if a Reformed Ladder Day Saint (such as Warren Jeffs) were running, everyone would rightly judge that person based on their religious beliefs.

Acceptable Religions
This column points out what I believe to be the issue for some voters with Romney's Mormon faith.

As Talman makes clear, for him there are religions that pass the acceptable test: Most Protestant sects, Catholicism, Mormonism - I'm sure he'd include Judaism. Then there are unacceptable religions: Scientology, Christian Science, etc., which are too wacky to take seriously. [Islam and atheism fall into the unacceptable category for different reasons.]

The question for a lot of people is whether Talman is right or whether the LDS Church falls into the Scientology group. I personally agree with Talman, but I think this issue is why there are so many questions about Romney's faith.

Romney's religious beliefs are his core
values. He believes in the worth of the individual (a core belief and a strong LDS belief). He believes in the santity of marriage and family (Again core and religious beliefs are the same.)
He believes in the rule of law and respect for the law of the land and its leaders, including President Bush. (Render unto Ceasar, etc. Be fair and honest are Christian and core beliefs.)

He believes in keeping all ten of the commandments as his core and religious beliefs. The first one has to do with worship of God and follows through to how he treats people - evenly and fairly. So, once again is daily behavior shows consistency between what he was taught as a boy in church and what his parents taught him about honor and fair play. etc. etc.

Somebody finally shows some guts...p1
Tallman, thanks for your collumn. In the wake of conservative commentators throwing the term "bigot" around like candy, it's nice to see somebody with a brass pair. I almost get the feeling that conservative pundits are giddy over the prospect of having the chance to use the term for once. ME TOO, they say.

First things first: I don't support Romney or Huckabee. As a libertarian, I think Rudy best combines electability with fiscal responsibility and leadership. My greatest qualms in voting for Romney have to do with his flip-flopping. However, I don't like the idea of a Mormon in the White House; in the hands of the media, such a phenomenon would do much to further legitimize the LDS as simply a denomination of Christianity.

Somebody finally shows some guts...p2
I knew some Mormon guys back in college. They were really nice people- no doubt about it. The religion, however, is entirely different at its core. I think the most telling moment for me came when I posed the following to a mormon: "So do you or don't you believe that in becoming like Christ, you eventually get to rule your own world?" He responded, "Well, wouldn't you rather rule than serve?"

As much distance as that puts between Christianity and Mormonism, I'd vote with no reservation for a mormon if it wasn't for the following: the tactics of the church. Remember those guys I was talking about? The LDS church sends groups of young mormons to try to win converts. This is why mormons will contend that they're open about their faith. However, most of these young mormons don't have full knowledge of mormon doctrine. Worse, they're instructed to provide only "milk" and not "meat". That is to say, they should only provide simpler points that by and by agree with Christianity. The stranger points are only provided later on. Hence, many are drawn in without fully knowing what they're getting into, and I fear that a mormon president would only increase people's openness to those who are either unwilling or unable to provide the full truth at point blank.

Here's a decent link for more info: http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

Prior to Constantine
Biblical Christianity competed with the pagan culture regarding 'truth' claims. (I use the term Biblical to distinguish from non-Biblical or extra-Biblical.)

To some degree also the Jewish Culture. But Biblical Christian's competition with the Jewish culture was unique in that Biblical Christianity originated within a Jewish context. Judaism was forced to out rightly rejected Biblical Christian claims of truth particularly about the Christ. Why? They simply did not believe them. But the Jewish culture was the dominant culture in relationship to the emerging Christian (Biblical) Church. The pagan culture was not put in the same position to reject Christ as Judaism had, not having to be directly confronted with the claims of Christ as the Jews were.

After Constantine 'Christianity' became the dominant culture and this dominance afforded peace to the Church to refine it's doctrines. These doctines have proved to be consistent with the Bible, e.g., the Trinity and Diety of Christ. Judaism had already established its position of rejecting Biblical claims about Christ, so the only thing left for them was the sporadic persecution (wrongly) that would arise from the dominant Christian culture.

Now the pagans were put in a sensitive position. How were they to deal with Biblical claims they rejected and could not embrace? They could either outright reject them as the Jews did and face the same marginalization Jews were experiencing or they could outwardly conform to the culture while inwardly rejecting its claims. Marginalization for the pagans would have been much more difficult not having a culture like the Jewish one to retreat to.

In the above post
I should have taken more care in using of the word 'pagan.' Pagan would be anyone outside the Christian context and Its teachings. Jews used the word 'heathen' or 'gentile' for those outside Judiaism. The problem with both words is that they can be and usually are used pejoratively. I want it to be used discriptively in the above post. I would rather dialog then cause unfair offense.

Romney uses LDS tactics, it matters
because the same secretive twisting of words that he learned as a missionary for the LDS now is employed while running for president.

As late as 2005, he was pro-abort, pro-homosexual, BUT now he's pro-life and against homosexual marriage.

He is untrustworthy. And yes, the LDS is secretive. They have secret ceremonies where Christian denominations are denounced, and they consider the practice of paying a pastor to be evil, in spite of the fact that their head guy in Utah lives very well on the church's dime.

The religion was born of sexual sin and desire, and though it has largely outlived much of that origin, its church members deliberately continue to disagree on real fundamentals with Christianity.

As others have said prior, IF Romney was a true conservative (instead of a johnny-come-lately to the conservatives side), THEN I could consider him in spite of his religion, BUT since he is willing to try to fool us into thinking that his made-up religion is imperceptibly different from my own, THEN I can't trust him.

So it matters what his faith is, as it dictates to him his moral code - the one that says it is okay to obfuscate his own real beliefs in order to be elected.

No thanks!
Warren

As a Mormon,a 30-year excommunicant,
I approve this opinion. Jesus is almost verboten since 9/11 because of Christianity's core belief, that He is the ONLY way to heaven. Whether or not he visits the halls of government depends on the people elected.

Well and eloquently said
I will not vote for a Mormon because I have been a Mormon and I am seriously uncomfortable with their attitude toward women in general and unmarried women in particular. This is sheer self-interest on my part, and I believe that it is necessary to vote in ones own self interest when it comes to philosophical and societal views.

I am much more inclined not to vote for Rudy due to his visible contempt for Catholicism, which I take extremely seriously. I am praying for his conversion as well as for Mr. Romneys, because I am sure Rudy has not gone to confession lately or read the part about not being an occasion of sin to others due to his scandalous lifestyle.

I was not anti-Black when I moved to Atlanta, but by the time I had been relentlessly hammered by Blacks who told me that nothing I could ever do would make me anything but a racist due to the colour of my skin, I gave up and became a racist (until I left town). The constant shrieks of BIGOT! are making me incline toward the same POV regarding the LDS faith. If you have the name, why not have the game? You cannot be tolerant in a vaccuum.

So if you want to convince me that I ought to tolerate your religion, stop screaming BIGOT at me.

Secretive?
The article was generally a good one, even though I don't agree with every part. I laughed out loud at the 'very secretive faith' line. It is so funny that this accusation keeps being made against the LDS church. In fact people actually believe that it is so secretive that most of the members don't even know what the beliefs of the church are. Having been a member for 50 plus years, serving as a missionary, seminary teacher, sunday school teacher, primary teacher, Young Womens President, Stake Seminary Supervisor, etc. etc. etc. let me assure you that we are a very well educated people about our faith. There are no deep dark doctrines that are being held back. The leaders are not paid. They are volunteers. They are taken from among the ordinary people. The Prophet and Apostles are called for life from among the ordinary people. All other callings are temporary and we all have the opportunity to serve in many different capacities as called by God. If there were secrets, they wouldn't stay secret for long.

And one other thing - We have NO desire to be considered traditional Christians which to us are creedal Christians adhering to a manmade creed where a committee tried to decide how to interpret the scriptures in the 4th century. We believe that they interpreted many things wrong, and that there were those participating who were shouted down by the more politically strong. I am a Christian. I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior and the only begotten son of our Heavenly Father. He died for me, atoned for my sins, and was resurrected. Through him I can be cleansed from my sins. He taught the way to live and I try to live those teachings.

HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF
Before 1960, anti-Catholicism was a Main Street, USA belief, not a leftist and liberal intellectual belief as it is today. By that time, the Pope was John the 23rd and Vatican II was soon to some to come. JFK diffused the issue because he was not especially devout and he promised to uphold "separation of church and state". More importantly, JFK ran on ideas with appeal to conservatives, namely, lower taxes, strong military, and giving for your country. He carried some Southern states.

Mitt Romney lives and breathes the LDS church. He is no true blue conservative.

The time will come when all of this will be academic. It is only a matter of time before there will be a serious Presidential contender who will be an avowed agnostic or atheist. When this happens, the MSM will promote that person's candidacy BIG TIME and will label him or her "sophisticated". Others will say, "It's high time". Hollywood, of course, will work non-stop to put that person into the White House.


Would Mr. Tallman vote for a Jew?
Mr. Tallman talked about Mormons, Muslims, Scientologists and atheists, but he cleverly left out Jews.

Evangelical Christians are upset with Mormonism because they say Mormonism teaches that their own faith is false.

Well, so does Judaism.

At least Romney said he accepts Christ as his Savior.

Jews don't. Which means they think that Christianity is false. That means they fail the Christian evangelicals' litmus test for high office too.

I guess Jews shouldn't bother becoming conservatives or joining the Republican Party. With Christian evangelicals now in charge, Jews would be just as unwelcome as Mormons.

Little by little, the GOP is devolving into a party of middle-aged, mostly white, married Christians (without Mormons). In other words, a splinter party without broad national appeal.

Keep this up and you might even lose Utah as a loyal Republican state. That would be truly remarkable.

SteveL
Because the Jews don't claim to be Christian.

I don't get it SteveL
Mormons base their religion on every other faith being false and an abomination. Then you have the nerve so say that Christians denouncing Mormonism is dividing the GOP.

This kind of thinking is what leads to people saying Mormonism is secretive. Well, It has to be becasue you want it to be accepted by the wor

Good article
I enjoyed seeing a reasonable discussion of what religion means to voters. Of course it can be considered. It is values and policy that matter in an election. Nothing Mitt has proposed should scare fellow Republicans about a coming Mormon theocracy. You can buy alchohol in Utah for crying out loud. The laws there are not much different than in parts of the South. There are some faiths where at the very least a good hard questioning would be in line prior to my feelign comfortable with them, because of practices that raise the question of how they would govern. (Islam is the prime example - for obvious reasons).

Hercules Mulligan made the comment that "Mormonism's "great apostasy" is a complete rejection of my entire belief system. Intellectual Giants like Jerome, Augustine, and Aquinas are then either seen as evil or stupid."

As a Mormon there is no disrespect taught or intended toward the people you cited. I have heard their names, along with Luther, Wesley, and other reformers spoken highly of by LDS leaders. They were not "evil or stupid", but good men who in many cases did a great service to the world. The "great apostacy" refers to the death of the apostles and the resultant loss of priesthood keys to act in the name of God. We are grateful for the good people who kept Christianity alive through the centuries.

Oops
Obviously the last word was meant to be "world".

Add a thought to the secretive part: They moved out to the middle of nowhere in Utah to be free from persecution and to develop Mormonism separate from most everyone but the 'Lamanites'.

Could Not Vote for an Atheist
"I don't want to vote for an atheist. I was
one, and I am no longer. I do not want to deliberately put someone in
the White House (or any other marble hall) who does not consider
himself accountable to any god at all."

Reply: I am sorry, but I thought an elected leader in a democracy was accountable to the people who elected him?
I guess the one thing I love about losing my faith and embracing a secular view of life is that now I don't have to hate others due to sectarian differences. There are no heretics or apostates in my worldview.
Heinz

Are Mormons Christian?
For the Christian, Christ has existed eternally. As part of the Trinity, Christ is God but is a separate person from God the father (not a separate being). Christ was conceived miraculously by a creative act - not a procreative act - on the part of the Holy Spirit: Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Jesus. Finally, Jesus atoned for the sin of mankind on the cross.

What about the Mormon Christ? In a sermon preached by Joseph Smith on June 16, 1844 he clearly stated that Jesus is one of three gods. The LDS teaches as a primary doctrine that Jesus and Satan were spirit-brothers in the pre-existence. And, according to many, many LDS scholars, apostles and prophets (including Brigham Young), God had physical sexual intercourse with Mary to produce the body Jesus inhabited, but Mary was still a virgin to mortal man. Finally, the LDS Church says that Jesus atoned for sins primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane. While current doctrine says that the atonement was also finished at the Cross, historically their doctrine has been that the full atonement was in the Garden. So we have the LDS Christ being: 1. one of three gods, 2. the literal spirit-brother of Satan, 3. conceived through sexual intercourse, and 4. atoned for sin in the Garden of Gethsemane.

The law of non-contradition says that both these systems cannot be true. LDS is not Christian.

Mitt's Church is 1st Century Christian
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”


One Baptist blogger stated “99 percent of the members of his Baptist church believe in the Mormon (and Early Christian) view of the Trinity. It is the preachers who insist on the Nicene Creed definition.” It seems to me the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).

to Fuzzy
You are normally a reasonable commenter here. Surely you know that the Mormon move to present day Utah was motivated by far more than pressing issues than secrecy. The Church was chased out of Ohio, Missouri, and finally Illinois by relentless persecution by armed mobs, an extermination order allowing killing of Mormons in Missouri, and a US president (Van Buren)who was more worried about reelection that upholding the rights of citizens to worship free from persecution. Utah was a place my ancestors could set up that no one else would want to take.

Hi Hambones
Agreed. But doesn't change the image.

I dare say, it enhances it.

This is a lie
Either by Bot or the person Bot is quoting.

"One Baptist blogger stated “99 percent of the members of his Baptist church believe in the Mormon (and Early Christian) view of the Trinity. It is the preachers who insist on the Nicene Creed definition.” It seems to me the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood)."

As for this:

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination.

Go to Mazeministry.com to see the comparisons between the original Book of Mormon from 1830 and the current edition.

They acknowledge but deny the Trinity
The strongest statement in any religious book, including Holy Scripture, specifying the constituency of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is in Chapter Mormon 7 verse 7 of the Book of Mormon!

Yet, Mormons do not recognize the Trinity and Christ's diety! Should Romney?
Mormon 7:7 in the Book of Mormon:

"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choir above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end."


Bot is wrong
How many times is Bot going to post this same tired lie in all the Townhall articles that mention Mormonism? Hitler said if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it. Perhaps that is Bot's goal.

The only "early Christian" church Mormonism resembles is gnosticism, which is heretical by every definition. Mormonism has not resemblance to the New Testament Christianity. If you really want to see early Christian view of the Trinity, you have to look beyond the Gnostics. No Christian has ever believed in more than one God.

Amen
Good article Andrew; one of the best I've read.

1st Century Christian?
Since we're getting into this...

In the first Century, there were no "gospels." All of the Gospels were written AFTER the death of the original 12 apostles.

St. Pauls letters, the Acts, and maybe the Book of Peter, existed in the First Century. Mormons say that they believe that the Bible is the Divinely revealed word of God. The final Canon of the Bible, which coincidentally is the same one in the King James version that Mormons subscribe to, was only established AFTER Jerome's translation into Latin (the Vulgate) and declared from the Council of Hippo around the year 400.

Since God did not write the Bible himself (with pen on parchment) someone had to do it and decide what was valid and what was not (not all "gospels" ended up in the final canon). This was done at least 300 years AFTER the beginning of the so called "great apostasy." If this apostasy really happened, the Bible itself in its current version would be a product of it.

The total rejection of the Historical Church charactarized by the "great apostasy" from the first century to the time of Joseph Smith is therefore ludicrous. If there was no apostasy then no "restoration" was necessary.

Mormons can't have it both ways.

Come on Herc..
Are you reading what I (and others) are saying. The books of the Bible were written by inspired prophets and apostles. The fact that it was compiled into the present form by "apostates" (to use the word you like so much) does not mean that the writings contained therin are less valuable to us. There is no having it both ways here. There were plenty of well intentioned people who did great work in saving the scripture that we have.

Vote for a Mormon?
The "no religious test shall ever be required" clause is often misinterpreted. It actually means that the government can't prevent someone from running or holding office based on their religious affiliation or views. A Nazi, KKK clansman or Islamic extremist can legally run for President. Individual voters are free to use their own judgment when deciding who to support. To respectfully question how a candidate’s religious views have or will influence his decisions is not necessarily religious intolerance.

Mormons claim that theirs is the “one true church”. Church missionaries spend two years repeating Joseph Smith’s claim that God himself had declared all other churches to be false, all an “abomination” before God and those who profess those creeds are “corrupt”. Mormons perform proxy baptisms for the dead to make them posthumous Mormons. Mormons do not permit non-Mormon to be present at temple wedding ceremonies (including the ceremonies of their own children); forcing couples to make the people they love who love wait outside with broken hearts. Prior to 1990, the LDS temple endowment ceremony included a portrayal of a Protestant minister as a minion of Satan. Romney recently stated that he would not have a Muslim serve in his cabinet. Yet Romney and other Mormons want us to accept this new found tolerance for all other religions?


What I wouldn't give for
Evangelical's or anyone else to QUIT telling me that I believe. I am sick to death of wandering around this site with people giving voice to beliefs of me and my Church that HAVE NEVER nor WILL EVER be my beliefs.

Further I am worn with accusations that we don't discuss and then those making the accusation sticking their hands over their eyes and their fingers in their ears and singing "lalalalal" as the LDS try for the zillionth time to tell what and who we are and always have been.

But demographics and time are on my side. I wonder what you all will do when you need the LDS vote, and many not have it because of your game playing and your bigotry? WE are growing. You folsk are not. That my dears, is your demographic nightmare.

Sorry Chipper......
You're not being honest.("As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I can say he is right on in all but one assertion--that is that Mormonism is a very secretive faith.")

My daughter was with a Mormon friend (soccer carpool) and her mother couldn't get my daughter home and her daughter to a mid-week class at their Mormon church on time so she took my daughter along. My daughter was not allowed to sit in on the class but was treated like a leper and forced to sit alone out in the hall for the duration. She was mortified by this treatment and still speaks painfully of it to this day.

I could give other examples but this one was enough to make me wonder what was going on in that place that was so secret my daughter had to be kept from it. Had the roles been reversed the Mormon girl would not have been barred from my daughters church classes.

caaedmon and mahatma
It has always been my understanding that the "corrupt professors of religion"
spoken of by Joseph Smith referred to some pastors, not the individual believers.
When you can become wealthier by getting more donors, or bigger donations out of
the churchgoer's that you already have there is a potentially corrupting temptation
that some fall into. I don't doubt that most ministers are honest, decent people
for whom earthly wealth is the farthest thing from their minds, but we have all
seen examples of preachers who let money cloud their judgment. I am glad that I
have never had to worry about a lesson on tithing being given because the bishop
needed to make the payment on his BMW.

Mahatma-mama - I am very sorry about your daughter's experience. I can't think of
any class she should have been excluded from. Sounds like a big error in judgment
on someone's part. I hope it was just a miscommunication, but it sure sounds like
someone goofed up bigtime. We generally try to encourage non-Mormons to participate
whenever possible.

Thank You, Andrew Tallman
You make your points well. Good level-headed view of things. Again, Thank you. You have given myself, and others I share this with, important things to think about.

public v. personal
1. The constitution was written to inform the government what and how it is to act. the constitution does not tell me how to vote. Any American may run for office. I may or may not vote for him/her for any reason of my choosing.

2. One's stated religion/denomination/faith is of less importance in the performance of his job than whether he is faithful to that religion. This is key. A person who is not faithful to his stated faith will be unfaithful in other issues as well. And a person who is not faithful in the promises made to his wife and family will be unfaithful to the rest of us. So if Mr Romney is a faithful Mormon I will have no problem looking at his other issues and vote. But if one is unfaithful to his church (as Mr. G is) why should I trust his other positions?

Exclusion
Well, frankly, you shouldn't be taking anyone else's kid to your church's religious services or religious education classes without their explicit consent.

Mahatma-mama >> It may very well be that your daughter was left out of the class because no one got your permission for her to attend and didn't want to take advantage of the trust you showed her friend's family and be accused of "indoctrinating" your child against your wishes.

That's the kind of thing you should be ~ very ~ careful about and always receive clear, explicit permission before doing.

Trying to make folks see
The biogotry comes in when you have pre-conceived ideas about a religion, and when the opportunity arises to ask questions, you do so without even pretending to hear the answer. That is what s happening to Mitt. People keep saying Mormons believe this and that, when the statements are mischaracterized or flat out wrong. Questioning someone's religion is fine. Every LDS convert had to do that to make the conversion. But quesitoning while claiming you already know the answer is bigotry. And for the last time, Latter Day Saints are not secretive. You could fake your way all the way to the temple if you wanted and find out all the huge secrets. And as a temple going Latter Day Saint, I can assure you that without true faith in the restored Gospel, the temple ordinance would mean nothing to you.

Definitions of evil
There is a big difference between "Imperfect, sinful Human"-type Evil and "Malicious and Predatory"-type Evil. Considering the Kingdom has not arrived, every church suffers from the "Imperfect, sinful Human" strain of Evil in various ways. Saying, "I believe their religion is Evil, so I won't vote for them," really isn't helpful. Everyone's religion is "Evil," by the most broad definition.

You need a more clear definition of Evil, and you need to be honest about it. "Everyone who disagrees with me on Theological Points A, B, and C," definitions of Evil really aren't useful and should not inform the voting of Christians.

If you have to look for Evil in a religion, you look to the words and deeds the religion teachers its adherents to practice. Malicious and Predatory acts of Evil are what you guard against. Yes, if a religion teaches you to kill babies and saw the heads off of non-believers with dull knives your religion is Evil and people ought not to vote for you.

If your religion just has some differences of opinion on meta-physics and history that do not lead us to conflicts of fundamental beliefs over human dignity and freedom then I ought not to hold our Theological disagreements against you when voting.

Remember well the words of the Gospel According to Luke, Chapter 10 - wherein Jesus speaks of the Good Samaritan. Though his religious beliefs and way of life would make him an outcast his deeds towards God's children please the Lord and Christ calls him your neighbor, whom you should love as yourself.

It's about the Golden Rule
Doctrinal differences aside, the most important question is: Do LDS follow the TEACHINGS of Christ, a.k.a. the Golden Rule found in every religion and even in secular philosophy? That's the only question that matters in relation to voting (or not voting) for Romney. And to all those who continue to spew the hateful screed in these comments: can you answer yes to that question? I guess Christ will decide. (John 5:22)."

Subtle adjustment
Thank you Mr. Tallman for an impeccably reasoned position of fairness in judgment. If these are your sincere beliefs, and I have no reason to doubt that they are, then anyone calling you a bigot is truly mistaken, and probably bigoted themselves. My only rather minor quibble is that it is a logical sleight-of-hand for you to say that people call you a bigot because you believe differently. This implies a moral equivalence between all differences of opinion. One could only rightly label another bigoted because of the CONTENT of the beliefs, NOT because of their difference. This quibble aired, however, I find your overall point excellent, timely, and solid: while a state religious test for candidacy is constitutional heresy, personal consideration of religion (and preferably that based on factually accurate cause-and-effect analysis of the policy results of a given set of beliefs) can and should be encouraged.

Happy stretchedThin
I don't think anyone here has called Mr. Tallman a bigot. His was a rare discussion of the issues that didn't slide into sensationalism and character assasination (believers of a faith are dupes, liars, evil, etc.), unlike many other columns that have shown up on Townhall.

christian..who cares!
wasn't jimmy swaggert(the preacher)who was sleeping with prostitutes--christian? wasnt jimmy bakker..another preacher who swindled millions from his congregation..christian?the evil spirits in the new testament..knew christ
as the son of god..they knew it!probably most of the murders,rapists,etc. believe in the "jesus
story" so what! accepting christ..is just lip service if you dont strive to live his commandments,including the ten commanments!how many times do you find the word christians in the new testament..compared to saints which was a way of idenifying those who belonged to the saviors church!?what if a person believed that christ was the son of god, bled in the "garden"
which is really where he took upon himself all the sin of the world,didnt steal,lie,murder,cheat
repented of his wrong doings,forgave others,plus died on the cross,resurrected from the grave,performed all those miracles..but didnt want to be called a christian..but preferred to be called a BELIEVER-IST! THAT PERSON HAS A NICE TERNITY WAITING..in my opinion! so please save your labels..i dont want to be called a christian
like swaggert,bakker,etc!who cares! but call me in time for dinner! as for the election.....mitt is it! elvis

Are Mormons Christian? A mormons view
C.S. Lewis wrote in Mere Christianity that problems arise when words become labels. He uses the example of the word "Gentleman" it use to be a word that simply meant a man who owned land, since then it has become a valued statement meaning he is good honourable etc he further sates that once that occurs the word loses it value it is no longer able to be used in rational discussion since it has lost its objectivity. In the pure sense of the word one can prove he is a gentleman by producing a land deed,one can not prove some one is a gentleman based on the valued satement use, it becomes a matter of opinion. I think the same thing has happened to the word "christian" it has become a word that may have lost its objectivity and has been used by some for ill purposes to inflame division. I have no doubt that there exists doctrinal differences between mormons and evangilicals. I do not think there would be a mormon who would disagree. I do not disagree with an evanglicals right to define the word Christian, in fact I would appreciate it to help come to a better understanding, I do not disagree with an evangilicals right to declare that they believe they are correct.

Are Mormons Christian? A mormons view2
I think most mormons disagree with some evangilicals who do not allow mormons to define what they believe a Christian to be. I have a deep belief and very cherished relationship with Christ, I believe that He would accept me as one of His, I also happen to believe that evanglicals are Christians according to my definition. I can also accept that some evangilicals would not define me as Christian according to their definition. I do however take umbridge with some who declare me to be a liar for not accepting their definition. I can no more deny that I am a Christian then an evanglical could deny being a Christian, to do so would require me to turn my back on Christ. I would not ask an evangelical o do this, nor would I expect him to, nor would I call him/her decietfull and false for refusing to do so. No true discussion can ensue when labels and stereotypes are used. I would suggest that to open a discussion it would be a appropriate to for evangilicals to define what they believe defines the word christian ,Then when a mormon or anyone else agrees with your definition or disagrees with your definition accept it as their belief, i am not asking for you to personally accept it just that you accept it as there belief. Much like I believe the LDS church to be the only true church I also accept that you belief that it is not. For the record my defition of a Christian is someone who believes Jesus Christ is The Son of God and Redeemer of mankind and strives to follow his teachings.

those doing the "you're not Christian"
labeling of others due to "Theological disagreements" (as the wise mlund put it), are themselves indulging in unChristian behavior. This is DIVISIVE, and as Jesus said "if ye are not one ye are not mine." (I'm not referring here to honest, civil disagreements about selecting the best nominee for POTUS.)

Labeling as "NOT Christian" *anyone* of whatever faith, who believes in and attempts to follow the Commandments of God the Father & Jesus Christ (who are one "in purpose") strikes me as seriously HYPOCRITICAL (not to mention deliberately inciting discord among Christians). As Jesus said in His "Sermon on the Mount," Matthew 5:25 "Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge."

GOD is THE JUDGE of men's hearts (as well as deeds), and HE is the one we will all face ultimately after this earth life.

Jesus Christ (God) IS WHO HE IS.

His 'true nature' is NOT DETERMINED BY the results of umpteen billion arguments, between simple men, trying to define the exact nature of God according to some "creed;" and describing *who is and who is not* "Christian." God alone KNOWS His "sheep"--those who are His true *followers.*

According to the way I read Jesus' teachings, those who say they believe in Jesus Christ as God, and live in accordance with "the Golden Rule," cited by tetemais at 1:48 p.m.--ARE "Christian." I would never even *think* of stating that they are not, as many do on these threads.

mormons view continued
I think most mormons disagree with some evangilicals who do not allow mormons to define what they believe a Christian to be. I have a deep belief and very cherished relationship with Christ, I believe that He would accept me as one of His, I also happen to believe that evanglicals are Christians according to my definition. I can also accept that some evangilicals would not define me as Christian according to their definition. I do however take umbridge with some who declare me to be a liar for not accepting their definition. I can no more deny that I am a Christian then an evanglical could deny being a Christian, to do so would require me to turn my back on Christ. I would not ask an evangelical o do this, nor would I expect him to, nor would I call him/her decietfull and false for refusing to do so. No true discussion can ensue when labels and stereotypes are used. I would suggest that to open a discussion it would be a appropriate to for evangilicals to define what they believe defines the word christian ,Then when a mormon or anyone else agrees with your definition or disagrees with your definition accept it as their belief, i am not asking for you to personally accept it just that you accept it as there belief. Much like I believe the LDS church to be the only true church I also accept that you belief that it is not. For the record my defition of a Christian is someone who believes Jesus Christ is The Son of God and Redeemer of mankind and strives to follow his teachings.

For CruiseMissle
FYI: The "head guy" who lives so well on the church's dime? His name is Gordon B. Hinckley. His lifestyle is anything but lavish. If you knew anything about his character, you wouldn't have made such a accusatory statement. He lives in a condo of no grand proportions, and eats simply. The church is paying very little to sustain him.

The millions of dollars the church collects in tithing goes mainly to pay for operation and maintenance of church meetinghouses, temples, and humanitarian aid. Not one major disaster has occured worldwide in the last fifteen years that the LDS church has not spent thousands of dollars towards relieving.

The word 'Christian'
Is used only 3 times in the New Testament, Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, & 1 Pet. 4:16. The name began as a ridicule from the surrounding culture toward the newly forming Church. The 'ian' attached to Christ signified a miniature Christ or little Christ. Much like addressing a child, 'Angelina' or 'Josephina', etc. In the three above texts the context is learning, persuading and suffering.

Most traditional 'Christianity' would equate Orthodoxy with the word Christian.

But 'Orthodoxy' (Right thinking) is probably a more appropriate word to use in the debate surrounding the 'right' belief system. Anyone can learn, persuade and suffer. The question is, 'is the belief system correct or right?' according to Orthodoxy.

Christ words, John 4:24 "God is spirit, and the people who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and truth.”

The word 'truth' He speaks of here has to do with an accurate or right understanding of who God is. In Hebrew the equivalent word for truth (amed) means reliable. In either the OT or the NT Worship is always based on a reliable understanding of God? When Amen (derived from the Hebrew Amed) is used, it is an acknowledgement of the reliability and rightness of what is said.

Mahatma-Mama writes:
"My daughter was not allowed to sit in on the class but was treated like a leper and forced to sit alone out in the hall for the duration. She was mortified by this treatment and still speaks painfully of it to this day."

I can understand how painful this could be to a young girl and am sympathetic to your feelings about it. You are quite right, but you may be blaming the wrong people.

I think the mother erred in taking her daughter to the meeting instead of bringing your daughter home or at least calling you to ask whether it would be alright for your daughter to go along. I can easily imagine myself in a similar situation, and would feel that it would be betraying a trust to invite your child into a religious meeting at variance with your religion without your permission.

Otis, I'm sure your intentions are good
but you are simply misinformed re: "Yet, Mormons do not recognize the Trinity and Christ's diety!"

If you define "Trinity" as consisting of three, Mormons do indeed believe in "Trinity". They believe that "The Godhead" consists of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Where they apparently differ from you is that they don't believe that Jesus Christ prayed to himself or was refering to himself when when he spoke of "my Father, who is in heaven..."

Not only do they recognize Christs diety, they believe that the Jehovah spoken of in the Old Testament was in fact the very same being who took an earthly body and became known as Jesus of Nazareth and ultimately Jesus Christ. They also believe that it was He whom St. Stephan saw "standing on the right hand of God", His Father!

Sorry mlund and others...
The mother called and received my permission to take my daughter along. You can make whatever excuses you like but the facts are the facts.

Very well reasoned article.
I didn't see a single thing in it with which I strongly disagree but I am much more interested in what a persons values are than how he/she defines God.

I would have no problem voting for a Christian Scientist or a Scientologist or a Jehovah's Witness if I were convinced that they would not try to inject their religious mandates into the way they governed. I would not want someone who tried to ban psychiatry (Scientologist) or certain medical practices (Christian Scientist and Jehovah's Witness) nor would I vote for a Mormon who wanted to ban smoking or alcoholic beverages (strongly discouraged in Mormon doctrine) nor a Baptist who wanted to ban dancing. I believe in freedom of choice.

It is instructive that Mike Huckabee wants to ban smoking but Mitt Romney, who's religion prohibits smoking, does not.

Mahatma-Mama
"Sorry mlund and others...
The mother called and received my permission to take my daughter along. You can make whatever excuses you like but the facts are the facts."

No excuse! If the mother had your permission, whoever had your daughter stay out in the hall was WAY off base owes you an appology!

re: Mahatma-mama
Again, the problem I have here is you keep saying, "to take my daughter along," and not, "To have my child join in their LDS religious instruction class."

If I "take someone's child along" to my church where my child's Roman Catholic Catechism class is being taught, I hope I'm going to make it ~ explicitly ~ clear before I toss my neighbor's kid in with the other Catechumens.

Excellent Article
Voting is an opportunity to exercise biases. Why leave the big ones out ?

I have to agree
I have to agree with your comments. I am both a Mormon and a Mitt Romney supporter. But I admit that I don't think I could vote for either an athiest or a Muslim for the same reasons you stated.

I would have no trouble voting for someone of another Christian faith or for someone of the Jewish faith. As long as they were trying to live the doctrines of their faith.

While a state religion test is totally wrong, basing my vote on my values and morals is what the whole election is about. After all it is MY Vote.

I want someone I can trust. Trust that what they tell us is the truth. Trust their morals and values are close to my own. That they will honestly try to do what is best for this country. That they would be willing to ask God to help them in doing so.

I take exception to only one thing; That the mormons are a secretive faith. We have 50,000 missionaires all over the world teaching anyone willing to listen what we believe. There are 13 million of us scattered across the world willing to discuss our church. We welcome anyone into our churches. Twice a year the leaders of our church speak of our beliefs in General Conference that anyone with Satelite tv can listen to. I guess I have a different definition of the word secretive.

If you really think Mormons are Secretive I would suggest you have never taken the chance to get to know us better.

Duana Blakey

It Seems Romney Tells Lies
At this very moment Chris Matthews has Romney's strategist on and the guy is admitting that Romney lies like a sailor (with polite excuses for it of course). 1) Romney says he marched with Martin Luther King: not true. 2) Romney says he has been a lifelong hunter: not true. 3) Romney says he has the endorsement of the NRA: not true. The strategist admits this is all BS and lies but defends lying on the basis of "having to deal with the press all day long". Now this is scary. Much scarier than whether Romney is a Mormon.

i don't know....
lilly writes:

I have trouble with what you posted because Mitt never claimed to have marched but that his dad marched...I think you might want to double check your facts. I know that there is some dispute on the actual marches he marched in but it seems much ado about nothing. With the the valid issues each person has this one seems a litte weak.

Yes, but No
Mr. Tallman,

I am a Mormon. You make some good points in your article. While I would not agree that Mormons are "secretive," I do agree that one ought to consider a candidate's religious affiliation as ONE part of their analysis. I appreciate that you, unlike many others, choose to respect Mormons as human beings. Where you lost me was when you began to make unqualified statements about who you would not vote for: "I would not vote for Christian Scientst"; "I would not vote for a Muslim" and so forth. What concerns me is your assumption that a person who is a member of a particular belief system can be easily identified as possessing all the personal traits identified with the belief system. In other words, just because I am a Mormon does not mean that I posses all the positive (and negative) traits that you personally perceive Mormons to have. The fact is, people are not monolithic, and neither are religions for that matter. There are a wide range of beliefs and interpretations within every faith community, both among theological gatekeepers and the average "person in the pew." My personal approach is to examine each candidate on their individual merits, including how they approach their religion. For instance, I am more inclined to respect someone like Mitt Romney who tries to make it to church every week rather than someone like Fred Thompson, who only goes when he feels like it. But this has nothing to do with Fred Thompson being a member of the Church of Christ. In fact, if Fred Thompson were a regular church goer, I'd be just as impressed with that aspect of his character as I am Mitt Romney's. So, to sum it up, I'd say it's better to evaluate a candidate on individual characteristics rather than on what religion they embrace.


Silly Lilly
Who do you think you're fooling? You don't like Romney because you are a socialist Democrat and you know Romney could win. You probably would favor a "straw man" cantidate like the Huckster because your party could beat him easier.

You say Romney lies but your post is itself very disingenuous.

Romney did NOT say that he, himself marched with Martin Luther King and later explained that he was not there to "physically" see it but that he was aware of his father being there.

You strain at a gnat, as usual.

Hercules Mulligan
I understand your reticence to vote for a Mormon, but I feel it is flawed logic.

I am a baptized Methodist. Yet after studying some of the tenets of the mainstream Christian faith, there are valid issues to challenge it. For example, I am Christian like Thomas Jefferson who also rejected the trinity doctrine. I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. In my King James version, there is not one use of the word trinity. It is not to be found in the Latin Vulgate, nor Greek. It is a man made doctrine mainly stemming from a debate about the substance of God and Jesus Christ held at the council of Nicea and imposed by a unanimous vote of a dictator-tyrant Constantine. There is much to find on this doing some real research. Now if I use your logic, I am allowing a mainstream endorsement ot this tenet by voting for Guliani, Huckabee, or Thompson.

To base ones vote primarily on religion means that Jimmy Carter was the better choice than Ronald Regan. I disagree with that. Carter is a great humanitarian who does much good with Habitat for Humanity, who I have also performed service with.

Huckabee is a fine Christian, but in pardoning murderers and parolees his compassion and faith have caused him to overextend them into his job. This is the thing so many claim they fear about a Mormon, yet Romney's record less indicates a willingness to do this.

McCain had to have faith sustain him as a POW, yet I suspect the wounds are too deep to allow him to bring open in public.

Bottom line is that we have many good candidates, all of which (including Paul) are better than across the isle. My first choice going in was Newt Gingrich who also has baggage. As Republicans, we must focus on the best of each candidate's record. I will not vote for a Baptist, a Mormon, nor a Catholic. I will vote for the most conservative Republican I can find. Our party is leaving me as Zel Millers did him. Back to fiscal conservatism we must go or we will perish as a country.

Do Mormons Believe in Jesus Christ?
Some say that Mormons are not Christians. You decide:

http://www.allaboutmormons.com/ENG_Video46.php

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