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Wednesday, November 14, 2007
Andrew Tallman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Here's How to Have a Great Wife
by Andrew Tallman
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


“He who finds a wife finds a good thing, and obtains favor from the Lord,” and he who nourishes a wife preserves a good thing and maintains the favor of the Lord.

God allowed you to find your wife because He believed you would take good care of His precious daughter. This is why you obtain the dual blessings of having her and pleasing Him. But what happens when you don’t take good care of your wife? A man who neglects his wife makes her miserable and then she makes him miserable. As the saying goes, “When mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.” But she isn’t the only unhappy one. I believe you also anger God by betraying His confidence in trusting you with her. After all, what father is happy when his son-in-law fails to keep his darling content?

I’ve been to many weddings, and I have yet to see a woman stand at the altar promising to “love, honor, and obey so long as you both shall live” while thinking to herself, “I despise this man, and I expect this marriage to make me miserable.” Not likely. She stands there with hope, anticipation, love, admiration, and the expectation of great joy in her heart. Unfortunately, if you fail to meet her needs and fulfill her hopes, she will not stay that way. The best way to ruin a good woman is to marry her and then fail to give her what she expected to receive.

Oh, sure, perhaps she exerts a tremendous effort and manages to stay sweet and wonderful in spite of you neglecting her. Even the Bible teaches her to love you into being a better man. But to expect or demand this from her is naively optimistic and, quite frankly, unfair. There is a much better way: the Biblical way.

When we quote Ephesians 5, men often emphasize the wife’s duty to submit. Okay, fine. But the husband’s duty is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church, His Bride. In thinking about the relationship between Christ and the Church, who has the greater challenge? Who does more? Who is primarily responsible for the ultimate success of the relationship? Your obligation to represent the love of Jesus in your marriage is a monumentally greater task than your wife’s obligation to represent the submission of the Church.

So, what does it take to have a great wife? Simple. Be a great lord. And what does it take to be a great lord? Equally simple. Know the needs and desires of your wife and meet them. If you don’t, she will become just the sort of wife you don’t want: nagging, withholding, bitter, and frustrated. God gave you a beautiful flower. He does not expect a dead thorn bush in return. You’d have done better to remain single than to so ruin the beautiful human rose He entrusted to you.

That’s the simple part. It may be unpleasant to ponder, but it’s simple. Your job is to nurture, cherish, love, honor, serve, provide for, lead, impress, and protect your wife. And if you never stop doing this, the chance that she will be a great wife is very good. Yes, she retains free will and may fail on her part, but, when you do your part, it becomes much easier for her to do hers.

So how is this to be accomplished? This is where things get dicey. Willard Harley wrote a very helpful book called “His Needs, Her Needs,” in which he outlines the top needs of women. They include affection, conversation, honesty and openness, financial support, and family commitment. This is all true. Gary Chapman wrote another helpful book called “The Five Love Languages,” in which he talks about giving love through gifts, quality time, words of encouragement, physical touch, and acts of service. This is also true. Gary Smalley has written books. James Dobson has written books. Ellen Kreidman has written books. And all the books in the world are helpful and at the same time not. Here’s why.

Women aren’t a formula.

Every woman is different. Every woman is complex. Every woman is mysterious. And just about the worst thing you can do is think that she can be solved like some math equation. Men, by contrast, are not all that complex. This is why men and women don’t understand each other. Women often refuse to believe men are so simple. Men often can’t grasp that women are so complicated.

Yet God is represented in both of these. He is at once both absurdly simple and astoundingly complex. He is straightforward and mysterious. In other words, God made it so that women could learn about Him by understanding men and that men could learn about Him by understanding women. That’s why marriage is such a rich theological gift.

And your part, husbands, is the harder one. Though the task is simple (to make her feel loved and precious beyond comparison), the method is not simple. Although I can confidently tell her what to do in general to make you happy (see my previous article), I cannot tell you the same about your wife. You have to figure that out for yourself, and, even if you figure her out today, it may be a new puzzle tomorrow or the next day.

That’s okay. That’s one side of God’s nature you’re experiencing. If it frustrates you, you’re really just admitting you’re frustrated with God. But if you take it as the greatest challenge with the neatest reward, then you’ve suddenly discovered something far more interesting than fantasy football ever can be.

But if I can’t give you a formula, why did I bother writing this? Because if I can merely get you to recognize the nature of the challenge and stop thinking that there is a four-step plan you can follow to nurture a great wife, I’ve already helped you immensely.

Let me conclude with a personal example. Most women like surprises. My wife hates them. Most women like to be given sweets such as chocolate. My wife likes it once but then gets angry because she worries it will make her fat. Most women like to be given lavish gifts that show their value. My wife considers that a waste of our carefully managed budget. Most women like to celebrate anniversaries. My wife couldn’t care less. So what do I do?

Well, I could ignore everything I know about her by surprising her with an expensive chocolate extravaganza on our anniversary. Then I could pride myself for having followed a set of rules that would apply for most women as I sit back to enjoy the fruits of my stupidity. Or I could let her purchase season 10 of Little House on the Prairie on DVD for herself at Target on sale two months before our anniversary. Guess which one I did? And she was quite satisfied with that. We must give our wives what they truly want, not what we think they want … just like God.

So, what’s the lesson? Learn what YOUR wife needs from you to feel loved, and then give it to her. Pay attention. Really pay attention. Try some experiments, and see how it turns out. If you find something that works, try it some more. Never stop trying to impress her with the things you will do to make her feel loved. But also never forget that she’s a woman, not a formula…just like God.

And if you follow this simple (and completely unsimple) advice, I suspect you’ll find yourself married to a great wife. At the very least, she’ll appreciate you trying so hard to understand and satisfy her … just like God.

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About The Author

Andrew Tallman is host of The Andrew Tallman Show on AM 1360 KPXQ from 5-7PM weekdays in Phoenix, AZ.

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Wouldn't it be easier to just be gay?
Women are impossible to figure out. I think that's why God's design is one-man-with-one-woman-for-one-lifetime. A man with more than one wife is kind of nuts (including men who divorce their wife to marry someone else), and a man who thinks he can figure his wife out in THIS lifetime is delusional.

My life would be SO much easier if my "wife" were a man. If my "wife" were another man, he would more easily gratify my sexual appetites without me having to "put him in the mood" and I wouldn't have to be aware that my "wife" is a complicated bundle of feminine emotions and feminine thought processes (maybe THAT's why some men are gay; easy sex/no emotional complications).

I may never be able to figure out my wife in this lifetime, but, overall, I'm sure enjoying the attempt!

Maybe God intended it to be that way...

Bravo
The best part of this essay, which I began reading with that sinking feeling I got when some misguided Mormon gave me a copy of "Fascinating Womanhood" once, is the part that says that women are not mathematical formulae and that treating your wife like some Stepford Woman of your Imagination is precisely the wrong thing to do. I had a man once who was devoted to me and whom my family like (to this day) -- but he could not learn not to cling to me and not to follow me from room to room, talking without ceasing, when all I wanted in the world was to be left alone to work.

Remember, you married her for who she IS, not who you WISH she would be. (P.S. to women, same goes for us. Forget the religious words you are chanting in your mind: "Aisle Altar Hymn." You won't.)

For phileo
If God intended for homosexuality in humans, He would have made them hermaphroditic.

Perhaps that was also His subtle warning against cloning to keep going.

I like to be surprised . . .
In the sense that I expected this article to be a little too, well, "religious" for my taste, that it might concentrate too much on "obey" (which personally is a word that should either be used for both parties, or not at all; thankfully at my Catholic wedding it was not used at all) and the submission of women.

Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised by this piece and it is 100% correct, boys, so take it seriously. I like the way this author uses the teachings of "love" from the Bible to show how a couple should honor and respect one another.

Good job! Let's hope this pep talk works!

I agree with this article 100%
While reading this article it felt like Mr. Tallman had peeked inside my head.

When I was growing up my father often told me. "Never try to understand women, it will make you crazy. Just love 'em, and spoil 'em and do your best to make them happy, they will return the favor."

He was a wise man, because my wife and I celebrated 23 years years in june. :o)

I still don't have her figured out, in fact I stopped trying a long time ago, But I love her, and spoil her, and try my best to make sre she's happy, and yes she returns the favor. :o)

No, this article is NOT correct
as the author should be advised. As in all things, those who complain about faults in others are usually guilty of it themselves. Listen to the author and to some of the male posters: "Women are so complicated," "Women can't gratify my sexual appetites which makes me believe I'd have a better time with a man," and "So, what does it take to have a great wife? Simple. Be a great lord." Well, any man with half a brain should be able to figure out why men, in general, are having so much trouble with women.

Still can't figure it out? I thought YOU were the "logical" sex. Well, logically, this is your problem. All the problems you are having with women, all the flaws in your arguments about "making" women easier to understand, all the unrest and turmoil and unhappiness in your relationships have to do with one thing: Inequality. All men do is whine and moan and nag others for answers about what to do with women, when the answer is perfectly clear: Women are unhappy with you because you think you are her "lord," you think you are entitled to her "obedience," you think your job is to control her. Slavery is slavery, and it does not matter if someone is a "willing" slave like you expect a woman to be in marriage or someone forced into slavery, inequality in any relationship is slavery and will ALWAYS end in self-destruction.

...continued
It is MEN who are the complicated ones, it is MEN who are the paradoxes of emotional complication. MEN are the ones who first recognized the eternal truth that all of mankind is created equal under God, and even went on to found a nation upon this principle, but then promptly returned home to fortify institutions of forced slavery upon their wives and fellow man. It is MEN who are being double-minded on this issue: do you believe that we are all equal under God or not? If you do believe it, then stop thinking you are the least bit superior to your wives and to women. Stop thinking only she is to obey, only she is to submit to you unless you are willing to concede that YOU are equally required to obey HER, and submit to HER. If you do not believe we are equal, then I don't want to hear you moan and complain when women begin to infringe upon YOUR rights and free agency. If you do not believe men and women are equal, then I don't want to hear you moan and wail about your trouble with women. Your self-destructive inequality is the problem 100% of the time, period.

So, for all of you unenlightened men out there, the moral to my post is that you CANNOT give proper love, proper affection, proper care and companionship to your wife without first considering her 100% equal to yourself. And to rebut the author, yes there is a very OBVIOUS FORMULA to women, to men, and to all relationships. Here it is: Matthew 22:36-40

The formula is: Love God more than yourself, and love EVERYONE ELSE EQUAL to yourself. Not just because it's a good thing to do, but because everyone, in actuality, IS EQUAL to you, whether you want to believe it or not.

...continued
It is MEN who are the complicated ones, it is MEN who are the paradoxes of emotional complication. MEN are the ones who first recognized the eternal truth that all of mankind is created equal under God, and even went on to found a nation upon this principle, but then promptly returned home to fortify institutions of forced slavery upon their wives and fellow man. It is MEN who are being double-minded on this issue: do you believe that we are all equal under God or not? If you do believe it, then stop thinking you are the least bit superior to your wives and to women. Stop thinking only she is to obey, only she is to submit to you unless you are willing to concede that YOU are equally required to obey HER, and submit to HER. If you do not believe we are equal, then I don't want to hear you moan and complain when women begin to infringe upon YOUR rights and free agency. If you do not believe men and women are equal, then I don't want to hear you moan and wail about your trouble with women. Your self-destructive inequality is the problem 100% of the time, period.

So, for all of you unenlightened men out there, the moral to my post is that you CANNOT give proper love, proper affection, proper care and companionship to your wife without first considering her 100% equal to yourself. And to rebut the author, yes there is a very OBVIOUS FORMULA to women, to men, and to all relationships. Here it is: Matthew 22:36-40

The formula is: Love God more than yourself, and love EVERYONE ELSE EQUAL to yourself. Not just because it's a good thing to do, but because everyone, in actuality, IS EQUAL to you, whether you want to believe it or not.

Thanks for the rant, Turelie
This article was not meant for you. This article was written to that low-life husband of yours. By the time I got to "any man with half a brain should be able to figure out ..." I knew your man has less than half a brain.

Now, you could help him out by reminding him (gently, as I am sure you are capable of) of his deficiency. Because he has less than half a brain, he is unable to read what is going on in yours, so tell him once in a while, and check to make sure he got it. Then let him show his love for you in his way. And he will let you show your love in yours.

For the simple part of all this, men really dislike angry women. Nothing makes us more resistant to what is right than to come home to be scolded by the one we swore to love. Stop doing it.

To all you other men with only half brains, like me, read this, copy it, keep it close, and DO IT. Mr Tallman is right on.

30 years and going.

What's so angry
about the philosophy of Jesus? Yes, those are Jesus's own words in the scripture, in case you didn't know. It is men, including the author, who are trying desperately to figure out why they have trouble with women, and I issued a challenge for them to figure it out before I answered. SO sorry a comment like "half a brain" could completely demolish your fragile ego. I am glad you posted back, so that others can see how emotionally out of control men who espouse inequality really are. I present a logical argument, one which you cannot counter, so you resort to outrage and personal insults (Nice).

Wipe the spittle off your computer screen, and present a logical counter argument, not an emotionally unstable rant.

Wish It Were True
Tallman has what is probably good advice, but not for all situations. I have a good friend whose marriage was a disaster. He tried everything on the list from Tallman. Really tried. For 10 years.

Then he learned that his wife had a big secret, involving her life before him. As a result, she was never going to love him in heart, body, and soul. She married my buddy, a really great guy, for his money and the lifestyle. She was a taker in every sense of the word.

He gave up, quit trying, and she divorced him.

Think he is ready to try again?

Not until women learn to be honest, and quit playing games with guys.

Tallman's suggestions may work in some cases, but not all.

I can't begin to say how many sad cases I have seen over the years, women who take, take, take, and lie, lie, lie, manipulate, then laugh about it to their friends.

As one buddy puts it, She Used me, Abused me, then Accused me.

We are all over 50 now, my buddies and me, straight, most all are divorced and the rest are still single. Where women are concerned, our trust-o-meters are plumb wore out.

Defeat...
leaks from the demonicRAT party, like stink from a pig.

Here's How To Have A Great Wife
Madame Brillon advised Ben Franklin that "the wisest of men let their wisdom go to wreck on the rocks of femininity."

And so has it been...

The only indispensable reason for marriage in 21st century is to have children. If the expectations of men and women regarding marriage were reduced accordingly, mutual happiness would be possible. Marriage should be a contractual relationship to have, raise and protect children, with Vows committed to writing.

Love does not lie, it is not deceitful. Simply - it does not last. If a couple is unusually fortunate, they will still find pleasure in each other's company after their children leave. Good Luck.

now you tell me
Wish I had read this a few years ago.

Turelie
While the whole concept of 100% equality sounds good and wonderful it is impossible in practice. There will always be a dominant person in the relationship depending on the circumstances of a particular situation.

Mutual respect is the foundation, but that does not translate into equality. The bottom line is that God has created us as individuals and while we have many things in common we are also unique.

It's not about women as slaves, it's about men as servant leaders. Once you get that, it makes a lot more sense.

Turelie

Marriage is NEVER a 50/50 deal, and having been in that state for nearly 29 years I know what I'm talking about. That doesn't mean we aren't equal as people. It's just that all the things we bring to the marriage every day come in different packages, and that is simply because we're two different people. We're on the same page for the things that really matter. One learns not to sweat the small stuff-no easy thing for picky people like me.

It all balances out, more or less; we're not perfect, and the love is by no means an adolescent pink-cloud fantasy, but it's solid. It really is about each loving the other enough to put him/her first and accepting and working with our differences rather than being frustrated by them.

Turelie
I sense from you some of the things I've worked through myself, and heard from others over the years. Please don't be put off by the relevance of Andrew Tallman's advice for many people. It really doesn't diminish you when other people work out Biblical principles in their own lives in a way different from what seems best to you.

I can recommend considering Philippians 2:5-6, in which Paul tells us, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped."

In terms of spiritual accountability, and being made in the image of God, you ARE the equal of men. This isn't something you have to grasp, through effort or arrangement, any more than Jesus, who WAS in very nature God, had to grasp his equality with the Father. There is no need to make everyone in the world work out the reality of our moral and spiritual equality, through any particular set of rules in marriage.

Tallman himself points out that generic advice on relating to one's wife isn't universally applicable. I imagine he'd be the first to agree that one couple's idea of equality, team leadership, and sharing won't necessarily be the same as another's. The point, though, is that it be the shared idea of the couple -- and each member of the couple see the other as worth the effort to understand and accommodate.

A lot of men, and plenty of women, don't really know, in their guts, that we ARE all equal before God in the sense of spiritual relation to Him, and moral accountability. Those people aren't your problem. GOD knows you are equal. It's just a fact. God will validate and justify your position far better than anything we humans can try to do, if you'll leave it to Him.

Texn
I can't begin to say how many sad cases I have seen over the years, women who take, take, take, and lie, lie, lie, manipulate, then laugh about it to their friends.

***

Methinks you have been running around with the
wrong crowd, or just as likely, were attracted
to the wrong thing when you were looking for
someone to marry. I think that it is obvious
to everyone that not all women are like that - by a long shot. How did you and your friends manage to find so many of the bad ones. Think
about that.

As Christ loved the Church
He was the SPIRITUAL head, and he died for it. That's what it means.

Why do men die before their wives?
Why do men die before their wives? CAUSE THEY WANT TO!!! Haha

I married the best woman in the world 20 years ago, she must be the best because she puts up with me. :)

Women ARE impossible to figure out so why try? Just enjoy them for who they are and find joy in the suprises.

I love the authors advice about not conforming to standards. I made my wife a deal when we were dating. She gets nothing for Valentines day and mothers day etc but gets suprised with flowers and stuff throughout the year when i want to suprise her. For many women they wouldnt like that but my wife prefers it.

From what she writes I can't imagine being married to Turelie but who knows there is someone out there for everyone.

Understanding Christian marriage
I'm a woman, BTW, as it seems to be relevant in this discussion. My husband, BJ, is watching over my shoulder as I type, but I type of my own free-will.

It's nice to see a man writing an article that tells his own gender to treat their wives well. The Bible says it, but most people ignore it and that's to our detriment. However ...

In reality, the Bible says a marriage is made up of three persons -- husband, wife and God. If both humans have their eyes focused on Jesus rather than on themselves, there's unlikely to be major problems in the marriage. Two Christ-like individuals linked in marriage and following God's will are going to end up in the same place because God willed it. That's the function of marriage. As we grow closer to God, we will grow closer to each other.

That's the ideal. It's not always the reality. So, the Bible gives us a bit of instruction. The human part of marriage is not a 50/50 deal. It's a 51/49 partnership with wives being subordinate. That's a small margin which means we have a voice in the debate, a seat at the table, and a vote on the committee, but ultimately the husband has the final decision. Without rules for compromise in a 1:1 relationship, marriages fail because human beings operating outside God's will refuse to compromise. That's not slavery. Slaves have NO choice. Wives have plenty. We just have to know when to give up our "rights" to protect the marriage. And, this only works if both parties are seeking God's will. There can be tyranny either way if we start thinking we humans are in charge.

Turelie
At the risk of hurting your feelings, I've got to say I read an underlying need to dominate men in your posts. Perhaps you have swallowed the feminist idea that men just want to enslave women and we have to fight against it. As a post-feminist I reject that sort of nonsense. Men and women were created as compliments for one another. That's why we so often don't understand each other, because we're not really supposed to. The areas of strength that I have and my husband does not mean that he often doesn't see what I see and know how to handle it in the same way. After 23 years of marriage, he's learned that it's occassionally a good idea to take the path I suggest because I have skills he doesn't have. Likewise, there are times when his skills are better than mine. A part of the fun (and difficulty) of the last 23 years has been trying to come to an understanding of one another. We've been partially successful, which gives us a reason to continue our exploration of each other's psyches for another few decades ... or until Christ comes back, whichever comes first.

Huh
Gee, I want to support a wife (while she either works an easy job for her own money or just sits on her butt at home) and then come home and entertain her and find out what she wants this time.

I knew there was a reason I didn't marry. I can't for the life of me understand these men who think that women are WORTH that. Honestly. Women are just people, not goddesses. If you are stuck in the worship-women mode, maybe you should rethink things. This ways of thinking is what has caused American Women at present to not only be the most pampered group on earth, but also the group whining the most about wanting more.

Texn Engineer
If you think women have a monopoly on taking without return I'll introduce you to my father-in-law sometime and you'll change your mind. Three wives and a succession of mistresses will attest that he takes, takes, takes, takes, takes and then blames them when they can't take it anymore. "Here, have a diamond necklace; now you're okay with me cheating on you, of course. What? You're not? Well, if you weren't frigid, I wouldn't be with that hot little number who is about to become my next wife and then my next ex." Yeah, he's never satisfied with what he's got and he ceases to be satisfied with what he gets.

I think that for every woman out there that's a taker, there's a man to match her. Unfortunately, takers aren't attracted to other takers because, well, they can't take from them. That's sad. Our experience is that the only cure for it is a relationshp with Jesus Christ. It certainly broke the generational curse of infidelity in my husband's family because selfish will was surrendered to God's will and that makes all the difference.

Being "equal"
With regard to the feminist who wants to be "equal": I have noticed some marriages in which the wife - spouting "equality" - gets the husband to do her chores at home. I'm in favor of that IF the wife is also making half the money and fulfilling half of typical men's roles (are you up on the roof cleaning out the eaves troughs?).

What "equality" mostly means is that the wife continues to use the husband for money, protection and all the rest of the traditional stuff while simultaneously guilt-tripping him into doing a lot of her traditional stuff.

I'll tell ya, these "traditional" and religious men are very easily duped by women. Many don't notice until they are cleaned out in the divorce.

JG speaks wisely
Years ago in America, men had the advantage in the marriage - but the pendulum has definitely swung the other way.

That said - this column is well worth reading for those guys willing to make the commitment.

Equality
is not 50/50. It is negotiation, in whatever fashion suits you and your wife best, that results in both people thinking they got the best of the bargain.

I think that old Flip Wilson line is the one that everyone ought to tape up over his or her mirror during courtship and foreverafter during marriage: WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET. Do not marry a man who drives a beer truck and expect to turn him into a lawyer. Do not marry a woman who rides motocross and expect to turn her into June Cleaver. If his clothes do not match when he is dating you, they will not match when he is married to you. If that matters to you, marry someone else.

And the old rule Granny taught us still holds a lot of value: WATCH HOW HE TREATS HIS MOTHER. And I would add, watch how she treats/talks about her father, or her boss, or the sports figure she idolizes.

I have not married because I have never found a man who did not want to change me -- save for one, and his father drove me off by predicting what I would be like when I grew old. And I have now found out that everything he cursed me with has boomeranged and hit him right in the goolies, which serves him right.

Short answer: if you are not satisfied with what you SEE, then do not marry her thinking that is not what you GET. And do not curse others lest the curse return to you in spades.

Well I'm one wife Pt1
Who has stayed in a marriage through overspending on video games and all other nonsense while my paycheck was "Barely enough to pay my share of the bills", It was demanded that I use Birth control even at the expense of my own health and my needs were ignored. And yes while all this was going on I was expected to do all the housework, minor repairs(fixing plumbing under sinks, carpet cleaning, installing my own dishwasher, electric outlets, refrigerator and front loader washers-heavy MFers, helps if you spray a soapy substance on the floors- and dryer). I actually ripped my right big toenail completely off installing the washer.. All the while my hubby plays World of Warcraft.

I think men nowadays are having so much trouble for the same reason woman are. Everyone is more interested in entertaining themselves at the expense of others than they are in making a relationship work. If anything is more than a little bit hard they give up. I am the type of person when a thing needs to get done it just has to be done. If you screw up along the way you correct it.


Wifey pt2


Lets say your changing your oil at night and instead of unscrewing the bolt for the oil you unscrew the one for the freon(*blushes uncontrollably* it was dark dammit). Well you wait for the rush of gas outta the hole to stop put the bolt back in and go further back and do the one for the oil to get that job finished up then you go to the store for 2 cans of coolant and the little snap on adapter hose and you recharge your air conditioner coolant. Right. well thats what I did.

In the same way if you marry someone not fully knowing what you are getting or think you know but things are hidden from you/don't come to light till after the marriage. You can't change them, male or female, but you have to get out there and engage the other person to keep life in the relationship. Unless you marry a dumb a** like me. Then you can be as big an a**hole as you want and they will stick with it till you figure it out. Going on 14 years of marriage and now, after finding out he is ill(6 different diseases), my husband has realized that he has a wife and 6 kids and he should probably be doing stuff with us. I know its going to take him a while to know us but I'm willing to stick it out. I will say this I am not as complicated as the article would have him believe I pretty much tell it straight and mean what I say.

Unfortunately for him I already know the fusebox like the back of my hand and how the wiring is situated in my house and all those other things like mawing the lawn and changing the blades for both the lawn tractor and the push mower.. HE gets laundry duty and bathroom chores. And yes I stay home and expect him to help.

Wifey pt1 trying again.
Who has stayed in a marriage through overspending on video games and all other nonsense while my paycheck was "Barely enough to pay my share of the bills", It was demanded that I use Birth control even at the expense of my own health and my needs were ignored. And yes while all this was going on I was expected to do all the housework, minor repairs(fixing plumbing under sinks, carpet cleaning, installing my own dishwasher, electric outlets, refrigerator and front loader washers-heavy MFers, helps if you spray a soapy substance on the floors- and dryer). I actually ripped my right big toenail completely off installing the washer.. All the while my hubby plays World of Warcraft.

I think men nowadays are having so much trouble for the same reason woman are. Everyone is more interested in entertaining themselves at the expense of others than they are in making a relationship work. If anything is more than a little bit hard they give up. I am the type of person when a thing needs to get done it just has to be done. If you screw up along the way you correct it.


OK now it post
Sorry about the duplicate. I had refreshed several times and it didn't show.

Mike
I whole heartedly disagree with you on your statement that love doesn't last. My wife and I have been married 31 years and I love her more now than I did the day we married. We became friends before we became lovers. We both know no one is perfect and we don't expect either to be. She has honored me with three children that I love very much and if anything happened to her there would be a very huge void in my life. I will love her till the day I die and beyond. I was truly blessed the day I met her.

Seal the border before we seal our fate!
Hunter/Tancredo "08" "The Dream Team!!"

I can’t resist comment

If a man wants a good marriage he must recognize the true depravity of his situation. If thinking a 50/50 equality will work, he is dead in the water. The young man will tend to challenge his wife. If she says, can you get me xyz at the store, he will rebel by commenting, do we really need that today, can’t it wait till Saturday. If he survives his young years and is married at 75, instead of questining instruction he asks honey is there anything I can get you today. Now he demonstrates the wisdom of his years and the true depravity of his situation. Lol.

Here is my advice to couples contemplating marriage. The man should make all the important decisions the women the minor ones.

The man should decide what the family policy on the IMF should be, family policy on amount to lower the discount rate when mortgage companies become illiquid, family policy on ENDA, Family policy on NAFTA, family policy on tariffs and trade with China, etc.. These policies are absolute and therefore need not be discussed with the wife, better yet never mentioned.

The women should be in charge of all the minor issues, how many children to have, what car to buy, house to buy, vacation to take, church to attend, movie to see, restaurant to frequent, etc. Again these are absolute and discussion merely is a challenge to proper authority and results in bad outcomes, (reread 1st paragraph).

If each party respects the proper dominion of the other they will have a wonderful marriage.

On being a good 'lord'
My 19 years (so far) of marriage have shown me a couple of things about being a good head of the household, aka 'lord' per this column.

1) Good lords do not rule arbitrarily. Every authority has an authority over him, he doesn't just demand whatever he pleases, he doesn't make up the rules to suit himself. This is also true of an NCO, by the way: if he obeys the lawful orders and regulations from higher, his soldiers generally consent to follow him without resentment.
As long as both spouses agree on the ultimate authority, things can go quite smoothly.

2) Good lords do not rule for their own glory. The point of being head of the household is that your authority is not to serve your pride but rather your family's good. This requires self-sacrifice. Again, this is also a military leadership trait: "My two basic responsibilities... accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers".

3) Good lords don't micromanage. If you think authority means forcing your family to submit every decision, every action, for your approval--you've probably got a pride problem. Your family will resent the fact that you insist every tiny thing be done YOUR way. Again, there is a military corollary: allow those you lead to exercise their initiative; it helps them develop and creates a better team.

4) Good lords are good servants. Remember what Christ said about anyone who would be a leader in the church? That that person must be a servant. If your family sees you serving them lovingly and unselfishly, the notion that they are to regard you as the head of the family won't seem so unreasonable.




On my own leadership in the family
Michelle and I make decisions together, and we negotiate. I have twice, in our entire married life, made the final decision based on my authority, rather than working out a decision acceptable to both of us. I did this only because the decision was vital, because there was no 'middle way', because we absolutely could not agree and because I was utterly certain the consequences of the alternative choice would be disastrous. Someone had to make a decision, we couldn't remain at loggerheads to fight and delay -- and Michelle accepted that under the circumstances it was my place to have the final say. I didn't like it much, frankly, but it was necessary.

Otherwise, I've found that leadership in the family doesn't mean forcing decisions on others. It simply means taking the lead -- in establishing and teaching family bible study, in insisting that we go to church even when everybody feels kind of 'blah' and doesn't really want to go. It means monitoring the old cash flow and saying 'Hey, let's sit down and look at the finances before we buy this'. It means being the one to take responsibility for mess-ups.

When we talk about being the 'lord' we generallly think of resolving contention by coercing others to adopt a course of action. In a family with the same understading of how things *ought* to be, this is usually the *least* common circumstance.

Well, those are my thoughts. Feel free to tear into them!


To JG
"I have noticed some marriages in which the wife - spouting "equality" - gets the husband to do her chores at home. I'm in favor of that IF the wife is also making half the money and fulfilling half of typical men's roles (are you up on the roof cleaning out the eaves troughs?)."

Well, that is certainly one way of looking at the matter. It's one I would have agreed with at the beginning of my marriage.

Now I agree with the husband (me) cheerfully picking up the dishtowel and drying the dishes when the wife seems a bit overwhelmed.
I could also see the husband later suggesting to the wife that if she had the older children help out a bit more instead of watching TV, she wouldn't be so harried. I could even see myself showing one of the girls how to properly mop the floor (actually, I HAVE seen myself do this!) in order to assist in the implementation of that suggested course of action.
This, too, is leadership.

And the payoff? Well, I don't really need one. But when I'm having to go in (again) to train on the weekend, Michelle finds the time to get out and mow part of the yard, etc.

As long as you've married a loving, considerate person, you *can't* outgive them.

.
I'm forty and never married, although for quite a time I did want to be. Now I'm not so sure-- I like my job, my freedom, my life in general, and the fact that I'm not giving half my income to someone who hates me or asking some judge for permission to see my kids.

Not reality
Tallil2long writes:

"I have twice, in our entire married life, made the final decision based on my authority, rather than working out a decision acceptable to both of us."

-------------

You have no authority. Your wife was simply a good master and let you have your way once in a while.

Here's the deal today: If she wanted to take it to the mat, and especially if she was married almost 20 years, a family law attorney could simply bring about orders in court that would MAKE YOU fork over money, assets and kids to her. Period.

Once again: You have no authority. If you work your butt off to provide her with a life of ease, if you do pretty much everything she says, she may give you some slack and pseudo-authority. If she feels like it.

To JG
"You have no authority. Your wife was simply a good master and let you have your way once in a while."

As you like.

"If you work your butt off to provide her with a life of ease, if you do pretty much everything she says, she may give you some slack and pseudo-authority. If she feels like it."

Obviously you don't know us. Michelle is undoubtedly the hardest-working woman I've ever met.

"If she wanted to take it to the mat, and especially if she was married almost 20 years, a family law attorney could simply bring about orders in court that would MAKE YOU fork over money, assets and kids to her. Period."

If we regarded our marriage as some sort of hostile zero-sum competition, sure. We don't. We've made our lives *together* and that's the way we like it.

Your view of marriage is, I think, a pitiable one. This is unfortunate, but is a product of the 'me' society we have made.

Think About It
was the recommendation above. Sure, we think about it, at least I do and did. How did we all pick such mean, spiteful, deceitful women?

Good question! Anybody have any ideas how to spot such women? The women in question all looked good, acted nice at first, and seemed normal in every way.

If anyone has an accurate testing system for honesty, integrity, and fidelity, you can sell it for billions.

And to the person above who wrote about her father-in-law as a run-around, well that is absolutely true that it works both ways.


Texn Engneer
"Good question! Anybody have any ideas how to spot such women? The women in question all looked good, acted nice at first, and seemed normal in every way."

Well, what worked for me was being best friends with the woman for two years. I don't know that I would claim this as an infallible approach, of course.

whatever
People whose kids behave, whose wives love and respect them, who have a hugely successful career or anything else positive assume it is a result of their actions. The truth is some people work hard and do what is right and things don't work out that way. People who fail at several things or one very important thing often blame luck or fate. The amount of blame or credit is often just impossible to determine. Do your best, try as hard as you can, accept what you cannot change. Don't let people who cannot possiby know your full situation bother you if you have done that.

Texn Engneer
How to spot such women?

Do you have a good relationship with your mother? A sister? Would you listen to her if she gave you advice?

I've had male friends who've married golddiggers, and in almost every case, the women in the man's life saw right through the golddigger in the first thirty minutes.

None of us is actually that hard to figure out, male or female. But people getting themselves into bad relationships -- male or female -- rarely listen to warnings. Granted, warnings can sometimes be delivered in an irritating manner. But I'd say that most of the time, we don't want to hear them.

Warnings from others who have our interests at heart aren't infallible, but their track record is pretty good. Just something to consider.

Boone
Amen, Brother!!!!



Hunter/Tancredo "08" "The Dream Team!!"

Turelie
As I have not read all the posts, this may have been answered by another poster. I believe that when Mr. Tallman was referring to being the "lord" of your wife (notice the little 'l' in lord), he wasn't talking about ruling over her. He was referring to the love we are to have for her, our bride, as Christ loved us, His bride.

To be sure, Scripture teaches that before God, we are all equal. I have no higher standing before God than my wife. But in the marriage relationship, each individual has a well defined role. Without going to deeply into it, let me say it this way: The person with the responsibiltiy is always given the authority. For example, a parent is responsible for his/her child, so they are given the authority of decision making for the child. My boss is responsible for the maintenance department, so he sets my priorities. Likewise in the marriage relationship, God has placed the responsibility the family on the husband, so the husband has the authority to make decisions for the family. Of course, stupid is the man who does not use the wise council of his wife on matters where she has been gifted, but it is still his responsibility.

I hope this hasn't clouded the issue even more. God's plan for families almost seems to run counter to the way things operate today.

As I read through the posts ...
Aurorawatcher has stated what I wish I would have in my previous post. I agree with everything she states. Amazingly, my wife and I have been married 23 years (7months and 1 day!) as well.

Thank you...
...Mr. Tallman, for a great article. I'm proud to say, I have found my eternal soulmate. He is, without a doubt, my other half. And I agree with AudiR10, he married me in spite of my faults, as I did with him. I thank God every day for finding him. It wasn't easy, but it sure is worth it!

The most wonderful, most beautiful
Emmy and I knew each other for a total of exactly 55 years and 13 days.

I was sitting by her hospital bed one day when she said, “This must be awful boring for you.” I responded, “It ain’t boring, you’re my Sweetie.”

I was there at the very end. Today, Nov. 15, is her second birthday in Heaven. Her headstone tells the story of her life, it states:

“Now the Angels have a Role Model.”
--------

At an US Army surplus store I paid $13 for a new US Army Uniform (I was on active duty). Emmy had borrowed a dress from a girlfriend at work.

On June 2, 1951, the large church was being decorated by 10 or 12 men, some high on ladders, for a wedding later that day. As we approached the Altar, the pastor yelled, “Hey you guys, quit hammering for a few minutes, doesn’t hurt to use this stuff twice.”

The Wedding took 5 minutes, the Marriage lasted 55 years.

We traveled extensively, but we never got to visit the Earthly Holy Land together. But we will be in the Heavenly Holy Land together, in the very near future.

It's all about sex
In the final analysis of it, if we strip out all the other variables, marriage comes down to sex. I'm not talking about just mere copulation. I mean a true, intimate marriage relationship between equal partners. If it isn't, then couples are merely roommates or siblings. Too many wives either use their power over the sexual relationship as a manipulative tool or simply let their own sexual desires (or lack thereof) take precedence over their mate's while randomly choosing to "allow" him to have sex because, if she must, it's "her duty." I'm not excusing bad behavior, but I do wonder why women don't understand how neglecting the sexual needs of otherwise decent men can drive them to all sorts of anti-social acts like anger, pornography, adultery, depression, and even suicide. Imagine if men could not eat without a wife's permission? What kind of control--and responsibility--would that give to her? And how long would a man suffer starvation before getting out of such a situation?



jim
What a beautiful story you have - thank you for sharing it. And I am sure your reunion with your Emmy one day will be full of joy!

To all the others who have shared a glimpse into their marriages to try and show how God intended the male-female relationship within marriage to look, THANK YOU. My husband and I have been married just over a year and a half, and it is more challenging, satisfying, and delightful than I ever imagined. As a side note, we were also best friends before romance sparked, and that friendship is the absolute bedrock of our relationship. The core of it all is each of our relationships with Jesus Christ. Although it can be hard for me to reign in my stubborn, opinionated self at times, my husband is the head of our home and carries the responsibility and authority (thanks, Tallil2Long) for our family.

Tallil2long
Excellent summary of the good "lord" there. I've got one who fits the description perfectly.

And I agree 100% on the pitiful nature of a "marriage" that is conducted as if the husband and wife were natural enemies who'd been forcibly chained to each other instead of understanding that marriage is a joint partnership where each partner's weakness are covered by the other's strengths and whose strengths are reinforced by the other's talents.

Anything my DH and I do together comes out 500% better than what either of us could do on our own. Even more, the doing of projects becomes pure joy.

To answer Texn Engneer's question, I recommend (to both sexes), choosing your mate with your head instead of just your hormones. Give the decision the same concentrated thought that you'd give your choice of college or career path. Unfortunately many men seem to give their choice of girlfriend less thought than they'd give to the choice of a new car and many women give their choice of boyfriend less thought than they'd give their choice of living room curtains.

Observe how the person in questions treats his/her parents, friends, boss, subordinates, waitresses, etc.

Additionally, the practice of chastity during courtship enhances a person's ability to due such clear thinking because, even if you discount the spiritual binding caused by the act of intercourse, science has shown that the hormones and pheromones involved in the sex act have a bonding effect on both partners regardless of whether or not they intended such bonding to occur.

Sorry guys, NONE of you
are correctly understanding the philosophy of Jesus. This is my argument (based upon the First and Second Great Laws of Christ - laws so great ALL OTHER LAWS hang upon it) that any relationship based in equality WILL ENDURE. All relationships based in inequality WILL SELF-DESTRUCT, and that is the reason there is so much trouble in the male-female relationship. Trouble starts when one person begins to put themselves over another. This is true in ANY relationship, from siblings to business partners to marriages.

So far, all the replies to my argument have been:
1) I'm an "angry woman."
2) My "husband" has "half a brain."
3) I am a "feminist."
4) Jesus really didn't mean what He said.
5) One-way submission from a wife to husband in marriage really isn't slavery, because it is done in a "nice" way.

Sorry, NONE of your arguments so far even stand a chance against Jesus's philosophical genius. I never said women aren't ever the causes of relationship failure, I said INEQUALITY is the cause of relationship failure. When you start thinking logically about this and stop trying to attack ME, then you will begin to realize the truth of it.

equality in marriage
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
--Genesis 2:24

Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband; and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
--I Corinthians 7:2-4

i have been married for 25 wonderful years.
marriage IMO has to be 50-50 for it to work.

the other thing i have learned is that in an argument, telling a woman she is wrong is not the way to win.

FROG - yes, your argument is clouded
Think about what it is that you are saying:

"The person with the responsibiltiy is always given the authority. For example, a parent is responsible for his/her child, so they are given the authority of decision making for the child."

You are equating parent/child relationships with husband/wife relationships, which are two different things. A child will eventually become an adult, like his parents, which means that the parental authority over the child is a temporary arrangement, ending when the child becomes an adult, where the child makes his own decisions from then on. The husband/wife relationship is eternal, and so you are saying that the authority a man has over his wife is never-ending and she never will never have any authority to make decisions for herself or her family. This is slavery. Slavery is one-way submission, even if it is done in nice, loving way. You are also unknowingly making a case for the destruction of marriage, because a woman who is unmarried and makes decisions for herself is free, and therefore superior, to a woman who enters marriage and is henceforth required to submit to another.

If single women have more liberty than married women, more liberty being superior to less liberty, then the marriage institution will fail indefinitely.

religiouslib - you are wrong too
Not because a woman says so, but because GOD says so. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Who is the author of the Corinthian scripture you posted? Paul.

When two philosophies conflict, reason and logic dictates that you go with the superior philosophy.

Jesus Christ:
A SINLESS, PERFECT man, and also the Son of God.

Paul the Apostle:
A SINFUL, IMPERFECT man, just like the rest of us.

The teachings and Philosophy of Jesus Christ will always win in my mind.

After 46 years
After 46 years of marriage I'd like to impart a few words of wisdom...Marriage should be a lasting friendship because, even without words, we understand how someone feels..the best kind of husband is the kind you can sit on a porch swing with, never say a word, then walk away feeling like it was the best conversation you've ever had.....Those words I learned from my mom. She and my dad were married for 67 years. Hey, it really works.

Do we want marriage to fail?
Of course NOT. But inequality is the reason if it ever does. A marriage in which the partners are perfectly equal is superior to a marriage where one partner is required to submit to another. There is no getting around this. Therefore, there must be something about marriage that we are missing.

Did God say, here Adam, here's your wife, now go and rule over her? Well, the scriptures say that God DID give Adam a position of leadership over his wife, to "rule" over her. What does this mean? Does God ever issue us a commandment of unrighteousness? NO, God cannot. Therefore, God gave Adam (and all husbands) a charge to rule, or in other words LEAD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS over his wife. Here's the kicker. Who is the judge over whether or not he is leading in righteousness? SHE is. She is the judge over his decisions, and will accordingly go along with them or veto them based upon his righteousness. So in effect, God placed checks and balances upon the male-female relationship, where she is to submit to him in leadership, and he is to submit to her righteous judgment in the execution of that leadership. This is the only way the marriage can be equal...they both submit to each other. The problem with the Apostle Paul is that he did not understand this arrangement, he occasionally portrayed it as equal but in the same breath would require one-way submission for wives. Why do you think the church collapsed into ruin after the Savior died? Because the people began to follow incorrect and incomplete teachings that were not of God.

Turelie
Actually, my reply to you didn't make any of those points.

Please don't go away feeling rebuked and misunderstood. I believe that if you will ask God to show you how ALL His words are consistent -- words about our moral and spiritual equality, as well as admonitions for married people -- He will answer you.

He may not provide that answer through advice books and columns. That's OK. If you can be at peace with what other people report as working for them, and not feel the need to argue with it even if you don't think it's "The Rule" for everyone, I think you will know that you have your answer.

Remember, equality is not something we have to grasp -- certainly not by arguing everyone else into seeing equality exactly the same way. We just have it. God will vindicate it, for each person in his or her own life. In my experience, if we are upset over other people not seeing things as we do, that's when we are not leaving our vindication to God, and instead are trying to "grasp" what we already have -- looking for validation from flawed humans who can never give it to us.

Texn Engneer
I don't have any fool proof advice on how to find a good woman, but here's my suggestion. First, get your life in order and learn to be the type of person that someone can love and respect for a lifetime. For me, that meant committing my life to a standard that I knew I could never achieve, but that I needed to work at least try. My life was going nowhere until I gave it Jesus Christ.

Then, AFTER you've worked out the kinks in your life, look for a woman who is like minded in her pursuit of something greater than self. My wife and I were friends for many years and even dated in high school. We wound up meeting up with each other a few years out of high school after each of us had separately accepted Christ. Was it a consequence that we met again after high school? After 23 years of marriage, I like to think it was the providence of God.

who wrote genesis turelie
"they shall be one flesh"

but on a practical level if

a)if you can find a woman who submits to you as master, more power to you but that can cause problems in the marriage and personally, i like a woman who is my equal.

b)if you are the master and the wife is simply your servant what happens if you die.
does your wife now have to find another man to submit to or should she take over both duties.


dyerje
Yes, your reply falls under #4, that you think Jesus really didn't mean what He said. You wrote, "A lot of men, and plenty of women, don't really know, in their guts, that we ARE all equal before God in the sense of spiritual relation to Him, and moral accountability."

My question to YOU is, DO YOU believe all are equal under God? If you don't know, then you don't think Jesus really meant it when he said WE ARE EQUAL. And it also means you do not subscribe to American philosophy, which is based upon the principle that "all men are created equal" under God.

You keep portraying equality as something that "we cannot grasp." Nonsense. Equality is equality, and there is NOTHING God ever hides from us, there is NOTHING he wishes to keep us from understanding, from "grasping." He wants us to know all things, who we are, where we came from, and where we are going. Your Philippian scripture only shows that Paul, for whatever reason, could not grasp the relationship with Jesus to God. I do. It is in fact, very clear. Our relationship with God, like Jesus's, is a child to parent relationship. Children grow up to become like their parents, and therefore, children of God grow up to become Gods themselves. What is a God? A PERFECT and ETERNAL parent, and only EQUALITY in relationships will get us there. Simple enough.



Turelie ...
Have you ever heard of an analogy? They are similar but not exactly alike. The analogy of the parent/child and employee/boss was merely to show that authority is in the hands of the person responsible. If you don't like the fact the God placed the man as head of the family, with all the responsibilities to care and nurture that family, take it up with Him.

In over 23 years of marriage, I have never once had to say to my wife, "It doesn't matter what you think or feel, I'm doing this the way I feel is right." Never! But both of us know and agree that should a time come, it's my call.

I'm not sure where you get your Biblical interpretations from, but in your 1:43pm post, you couldn't be more wrong about the judging her husbands righteousness. So you think the author of most of the New Testament was wrong in his theology? If the Bible isn't 100% accurate, who, then, gets to determine which parts are right and which parts aren't? I think you have an authority problem that you need to check against the truth of scripture. If you won't/don't accept the truth of the Bible, nothing I can say will help. God Bless you in your quest for truth.

My 1st post but been reading TH since 13
aurorawatcher: "It's a 51/49 partnership with wives being subordinate. That's a small margin which means we have a voice in the debate, a seat at the table, and a vote on the committee, but ultimately the husband has the final decision."


frog: "The person with the responsibiltiy is always given the authority. For example, a parent is responsible for his/her child, so they are given the authority of decision making for the child. My boss is responsible for the maintenance department, so he sets my priorities. Likewise in the marriage relationship, God has placed the responsibility the family on the husband, so the husband has the authority to make decisions for the family."


So ultimately your voice, vote, and seat in the debate gets written over once he's voiced his opinion, put in his vote, and sat on his seat. What you wrote makes marriage unappealing to a 19 yr. old girl like me. And what frog wrote above also makes marriage unappealing as well. As a child (and, yes, even when I went into my teens, which I'll officially be out of next year) I accepted my parents decisions in family meetings because I knew that I was a child and that they were the adults. But in the context of what frog has written above marriage would seem to put me back in the position of a child again. Not that I'm against marriage or am saying that I don't or would ever want to get married myself, but, if marriage is like what aurorawatcher and frog states, then I would prefer not to get married.



Equality? Not part of Marriage
Equality is a legal principle that guides the law in protecting us civilly from the cruelty and selfishness of our fellows.

It has nothing to do with love and marriage.

There is no possible way to define equality in terms of the marital relationship. Equal in what? Hours of labor? Odiousness of tasks? Number of personal concessions? Use of electricity? Free time? Control of the remote?

How in the world is any couple going to work all these negotiations out, and, in the process, how are the two of them ever going to feel loved or respected by the other when both must try to negotiate their own best deal?

I don't get it.

C.S. Lewis said, in his brilliant book That Hideous Strength, that between lovers, there can be no equality, and that (feminist outrage alert) obedience is an erotic necessity.

The single biggest mistake people make is running rough shod over the the sexual relationship. When a man and woman say to each other "I am assuming you consider your body available for random sampling and not reserved exclusively for your future spouse" they are saying "your body will never be seen as unique, set apart, and treasured as the great privilege of my life."

For the couple who waits, though, after marriage, the sexual relationship becomes a daily feast, celebrated in their conversation, their working for each other, their prayers, their silent looks, and many times a week, through their private joyful joining.

I'm just saying that when sex is protected for marriage, and cultivated as the continual celebration of a lifelong commitment, the question of equality becomes a pathetic irrelevance.

You might as well stand up during a beautiful concert and say "why don't the violins get to play as loud as the horns?" The only reply is "Why in the world are you here?"




Turelie ...
I think your confusing God's concept of equaulity with your own concept of fairness. I've seen many young couples balk at God's plan for marriage because God's plans didn't meet their preconceived ideas about how marriage is supposed to work.

God clearly defines each role throughout scripture and doesn't contradict himself. It only appears contradictory to those who don't like what He's trying to teach them. I don't particularly care for the fact that God made me the priest of my home. Being the youngest of thirteen children did not put me in the best place to learn how to lead as I grew up. But I couldn't just to God, "I don't care what you say. I'm giving the leadership role over to my wife." I mean, I could say and do that but I'm still going to be held accountable for the spiritual growth of my wife and children.

Just because I don't like it, or you don't like it, doesn't mean that God won't hold us accountable for it.

Frog - yes, and your analogy is false
There are analogies and there are false analogies. Yours is demonstrably false. You cannot compare a relationship whose sole purpose is to change (parent/child) to a relationship whose sole purpose is to stay the same (marriage).

I charge that it is YOU that has issues with authority. Whose authority? YOUR WIFE'S authority to judge whether or not your leadership, your decisions, are RIGHTEOUS, as required of her by God. You both have authority, yours is to lead, and hers is to execute. This is an equal relationship, a government with checks and balances. Suddenly when your wife is placed in an equal position of authority over you, you become angry and start accusing me of having "issues with authority." When truth (or light) makes itself known unto you, you are blinded by it instead of it making all things clearer, as it has for me.

Yes, I believe the author of most of the New Testament was wrong in his theology, inasmuch as it contradicted the teachings of Christ. That is why the church disintegrated into destruction and chaos. I am a member of the only Christian religion on Earth whose doctrine is based upon the fact that the Christian church apostasized from Christ's teachings, and therefore the God's authority was removed from the men on the Earth, requiring a future Restoration of the Gospel. See? It is true that all things based in inequality fail (the church under Paul's teachings of inequality). When something fails, the truth must be restored by God (Christ's teachings of equality).

Sorry for the mispellings...
I'm not much of a proofreader. My English aint' always good but I can usually spell okay.

in poor defense of Turelie
I've also noticed that a lot of people have been doing a lot of tsk! tsk! tstk! towards Turelie for being slightly against the grain compared to most posts. Though she does seem to have some kind of bitterness about men she does make some very good points. And Turelie, if you're reading this I'm only suggesting your bitterness about men because I've seen a couple of posts about your previous relationship with your ex-finance and his dad. I maybe completely wrong in my lightly-held supposition.


I don't Turelie ever wrote that the author of most of the New Testament was wrong in his theology. I think she said that some people's interpretation of it was incorrect. And when it comes to the Bible it always comes down to interpretation (someone's has to be right). I was brought up Christian but I've left my parents denomination and I don't particularly belong to one. Still looking.


P.S. I may be completely wrong in that she may have written what FROG accuses her of. I'm just going by (so-fallible, sorry) memory.

Totally Mistaken
Those who claim that Biblical submission of a wife to her husband and the husband's position as the head of the household creates a master-servant relationship are deeply confused.

I am not and have never been in the military, but the only possibly analogous relationship I can think of is that between a commissioned officer and his sergeant.

Marriage is a partnership and no form of exploitation enters into it. Both partners must give to each other with sacrificial love and devote their energy to the well-being of the relationship. To even begin to worry about power balances and determining percentages of equality is to deny the fundamental nature of the relationship.

My husband respects my brain as I respect his character. He has a vision for our LIFE in capital letter terms in all the sweep of years and accomplishments that lie ahead of us. I have my hands on the details of daily life that must go on regardless of what else is happening. There is mutual love, mutual trust, mutual effort put towards our mutual future.

Many times my husband's decision as head of the household is that I should make a particular decision. But when he decided recently that in his carefully considered and well-thought-through opinion the company he worked for was likely to go under and that our best option was for him to form a partnership in a business of our own I owed him the support of believing that his decision was indeed carefully considered and that he had the welfare of our family firmly in mind when he made it.

Both the submission of a wife and the authority of a husband require trust and commitment -- the trust that the other partner has your best welfare as his/her primary goal and the commitment to put the family above selfish indulgence of personal desires.


Postscript
I am the devoted wife of a man devoted to me for 36 years. I believe in, and daily live in, obedience to my husband, together obedient to the leadership of Christ.

I can say from all these years together that obedience has absolutely nothing to do with subservience or being dominated. It has everything to do with giving oneself unreservedly to one's beloved, and growing and developing in ways that would have not been possible without entrusting yourself to another.

I've been able to flourish as a writer, an artist, a professional, and as a leader/caregiver in my family--all because of my husband's sacrificial love, which I would not know so fully if I didn't entrust myself completely to him.

He claims my love made him want to be a wise, loving man. I know his love made me want to be a joyful, obedient wife.

Only Christ can do that. Forget equality. It's a poison pill.

Frog again
No, it is YOU who are confusing Christ's teachings of total equality: Love thy neighbor as thyself, meaning consider all equal to yourself (and who is your closest neighbor? Your Spouse) with your OWN concept of equality: Place your wife a little bit beneath yourself and require her to love you more than she loves herself. Your confusion is the same as is stated in this line from "Animal Farm": "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Your faulty logic is the same as the logic of our Founding Fathers: "All men are equal, unless you are a woman, poor, or black." Question: When did the United States become a Superpower? WHEN WE ALL DECIDED WE WERE TRULY EQUAL. Only then did God grant to us His blessings of prosperity.

What Christ did NOT say was, Men, consider your neighbors equal to yourselves, and women, consider your husbands more than you consider yourselves, because that would destroy the law of equality. God clearly defines equality and YOU are the one who doesn't like what He is trying to teach you. Yes, you are in a righteous leadership position over your wife, and she is in a position to righteously judge your leadership as it affects her and her children. God cannot take away our free agency, God cannot require us to give up our free agency, because in doing so, all things end in death and destruction. God does not establish relationships that will fail. God only establishes that which will bring us eternal life. Only Liberty and Equality can create eternal life, for men AND women, and everything else ends in bondage and death.

Problem
I don't have this problem in my house. In my house I am the king and ultimate ruler and I have decreed that whatever my wife says goes!!!


Hunter/Tancredo "08" "The Dream team!!"

More Love Stories

jim writes: Thursday, November, 15, 2007 12:39 PM

KristinJ writes: Thursday, November, 15, 2007 1:01 PM

Thank you KristinJ,
-------------------
As soon as I read the column, I immediately wrote my little love story to my Sweetie, expecting that most posted comments would be love stories.

Imagine my surprise to find more complaints, or at least not love stories, by most posters.

Please, please, remember a couple of the many “Gems” I have written about my Sweetie.

-------------------

The eye can see and the heart can love what the word cannot describe.
-------------------

… 50th birthday, I had given her 50 tiny pieces of gold, and 50 small emeralds, in a glass vial, with a chain to put around her neck
-------------------

As if I needed an excuse to grab hold, and embrace my Sweetie. When I squeeze my Sweetie I always hear bells and chimes,
-------------------

… she does serve very useful, and really delightfully curvy functions.
-------------------

I remember all the time we spent on frivolous things like eating and sleeping, when we could have been hugging and kissing.
-------------------

… idea of giving Emmy a necklace with exactly 70 stones, for her 70th birthday.
-------------------

… you should see the enchanting, delectable, heavenly view I see at most every meal!
-------------------

… taking such good care of her. That made me proud, I tried, I'm glad it was obvious to others.
-------------------

Mine said, “Darling Emmy, You've always been the greatest, and always will be. Happy 70th and love forever,
-------------------

… would have helped Emmy hold down her skirt, but I was too busy leading the applause. You are in second place, Marilyn.
-------------------

… won my Sweetie, and no diploma or peace treaty would ever be worth as much as that Marriage License!
-------------------

Turelie 1
You have misunderstood me. Word meanings are at work here.

The Philippians passage that speaks of Jesus not needing to "grasp" his equality with God doesn't mean Jesus didn't need to UNDERSTAND his equality with God (or that Paul didn't). It means Jesus didn't need to labor to make others accept or acknowledge his equality with God. He didn't need to reach out for it or insist on it -- adopt a grasping attitude about it. He didn't require a universal acknowledgment in the terms humans always desire: agreement, the fading away of disagreement, perfect consonance of everything around us with our view of things -- or even with the truth. Jesus WAS the Truth, and almost no one accepted or acknowledged that while he was on the earth -- yet he still accomplished the purpose for which he was sent.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." He said it once. He then went on to exemplify humility before all, including those who didn't agree that he and the Father were one. He knew that the Father would vindicate him in the truth of that equality; he didn't need to worry because others didn't see it yet.

I'm absolutely certain that I am equal to everyone else on the planet. I know, in fact, that that's true even when others don't agree. I don't need them to agree first.

Turelie, I'm not sure that YOU understand you are equal. You don't need men to agree with you on your interpretation of scripture, to be equal to men. And granted, there are men who are disdainful and high-handed, and always qualify references to the spiritual equality of men and women with checklists of man-made rules. I haven't seen that in the posters here, but they do exist, of course.

Turelie 2
But nothing anyone else thinks or does has the power to interfere with your standing before God. Trust Him on this: He says you are equal. You are. It isn't necessary for all disagreements with your concept of that equality to disappear, before it will be true. It already is. Let God deal with other people's hearts and minds on this.

jellofan88
Yes, your defense is very poor indeed. I obviously do not need your defending, as Christ's truth of equality is unchanging. I don't know what would make you believe I have an "ex-finance" or why I would ever post anything personal about myself. That is more your style, not mine.

I am posting because I have a sound, logical argument that no one else dares to take head-on. I keep hoping for someone to engage with me in this argument, to tell me how Christ is wrong, how He never meant for women to be equal in marriage, that oppression is wrong in all relationships except in marriage. Let me ask you this - Is oppression and dominance ever wrong in society, one person over another? Is it ever wrong from brother to brother? Is it wrong from business partner to business partner? The obvious answer is yes, it is ALWAYS wrong, and because it is wrong, it eventually DESTROYS the relationship.

I keep reading the most asinine rebuttals: that somehow women were created to be oppressed, that "oh, I've been obeying my husband for 30 years and I couldn't be happier," that I am "bitter" about an "ex-financee," that husband/wife relationships are akin to military command with one in the superior role and one in the inferior role. I already destroyed that argument. Military relationships/roles are changing relationships, where the inferior can become the superior, whereas marriage roles DO NOT change. My argument stands: An UNCHANGING relationship will fail if it incorporates superior and inferior roles to ANY DEGREE.

jim
It's my birthday today, and I hope that you are recalling all the wonderful times you had with Emmy.

I have to go find some Kleenex now....

Obviously the Muslims are on to somethin

g..... Seems like if you could just keep the Turelies out of it, there would be a lot more peace.

OK,ok, before you make hash out of me just think about it. I mean those guys are simply doing what the entire human race did prior to the 20th century.

Well at least before the Magna Carta and the US Constitution. Anyway us guys had it a lot easier before all the nonsense started. And it was simpler for the gals too. Just do as your told and shut up. Now if you get poisoned or don't wake up in the morning for whatever reason it probably means you were a little too crass with the little lady.

That's your problem. And if she doesn't cut your throat then it would be her problem. You see how really simple it is. What's the big deal. Life is too short to constantly worry about whether you are doing right by her. I mean cultures that don't give women special rights that only men should have don't have nearly as much high blood pressure or nervous breakdowns as we do.

KISS.. Keep It Simple Stupid. The ocean is full of fish.

Oh my, I am going to catch h&ll from AudiR10 and the rest of the gang, just for telling the truth. Don't ever tell a woman the truth.


Sorry, Turelie
You lost me when you deny portions of the Bible you disagree with. I'm no theologian or historian of the church so I don't know what church you belong to, but, if it floats your boat, great. My skepticism has me wondering if your handle was mispelled. Should it be "Truelie"?

Jellofan88: I have a daughter your age, she's turning 19 this weekend. I'm sorry if what I've posted has given you a negative view of marriage. That was never my intention. Read Mother of 4's 3:05 post and gratefulheart's 3:08 post. They state the case for Biblical marriage far more eloquently and accurately then I ever could. Always pray for discernment. There are many that will try to lead with their own perceived wisdom. Test it all against scripture and you'll get it right.

dyerje
You still are not getting the point of equality. Why did Christ keep repeating this principle of equality??????? Love thy neighbor as thyself, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....BECAUSE HE WANTED EVERYONE TO ACCEPT IT. The only time a Superpower nation has ever been born upon the face of the Earth, was WHEN EVERYONE DECIDED WE WERE NOT ABOVE OR BELOW ONE ANOTHER, BUT THAT WE WERE ALL EQUALS.

What has been the problem with governments since the beginning of time? Inequality. The leaders thought it was their right to oppress their followers, and for the most part, they thought they were entitled to do so by Divine decree. Tyranny reigned, and all nations fell under this philosophy, NONE of them lasted, NOT A SINGLE ONE. Therefore it can be stated, when a nation falls, who is destroyed? Just the leaders? Just the people? NO, the leaders AND the people. Inequality affects the masters AND the servants, the servants who gave up their agency and equality are destroyed right along with those who usurped agency and equality.

What is the biggest problem of society today? Some people believe in inequality and act upon those who believe in equality. All laws are based in equality. When someone commits a crime upon you, that is because he believes in inequality, that his will is superior to YOUR will. That's why other people's opinions of equality MUST matter to a civilized society, or all will be destroyed. Those who believe in inequality will dominate those who believe in equality. Perfect example? Terrorists.

So then, what is the biggest problem in marriage today? INEQUALITY.

dyerje, you can't use Phillipians
because Turelie doesn't accept the teachings of Paul. See her post to me at 2:54. Apparenly you need to have a red letter bible and use only the words of Christ.

eastlake joe
You were lucky, you won the lottery. I envy you, but that doesn't make lotteries a prudent investment strategy.

Thanx for the concern FROG
FROG,

You needn't worry about your post giving me a negative impression of marriage. I don't believe I do have a negative impression. But as I've written before, if marriage is like what you and aurorawatcher have written (as I posted in my very first post), then I'd prefer not to marry. As of yet, I haven't found it to be completely so. I appreciate your concern though. Thanx.

Seems as though Turelie...

....is still with us. Maybe she should explain to her boss at work that they are both equal and should receive the same pay and same attentions. Or maybe her platoon Sargent would like to know that his Privates are just the same as he. Well, before God and the Constitution they are, but not in this man's Army nor in your boss's Company.

There are leaders and followers and maybe Turelie is a leader. Most women like that are smart enough to marry a man who is a follower. There are plenty of both kinds so have at it woman. Equality is as equality does. And it takes an equal to know the difference. If you feel unequal, find someone who is not your equal but less than yourself. You will never find someone who is your equal.

Plain talk may embarrass, but it is understood.




FROG - you had it coming
My point exactly, your definition of marriage, INEQUALITY, repels women (jellofan88) from marriage because of its falsehood and inferiority. All things based in inequality are inferior to things based in equality, you can't argue that, and if you do, you are arguing against Christ's teachings. Here's a test: Give your daughter YOUR false definition of marriage and put it up against MY true definition of marriage and see which one she likes better: the unequal one where she is eternally subordinate or the equal one where she is an eternal and full and equal partner to her husband.

Why are you so blind as to not believe the words of Christ Himself? In the scripture I have been posting repeatedly, Christ clearly and mercifully gives us a way to determine WHETHER LAWS AND PROPHETS ARE TRUE....see, even Christ did not require us to be blind followers, but to JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS INDEED, FROM GOD. We as Christians have the EXACT SAME OBLIGATION to judge righteously and authorize the actions of our leaders as wives do in their homes.

How did He tell us to determine whether a law or a prophet is true? IF THE FIRST AND SECOND GREAT COMMANDMENT CAN HANG UPON IT. (Verse 40) The first and second great commandment is that God is over us, and everyone else is equal to ourselves. If a law or a prophet's teachings conflict with this, then such thing is NOT a law and NOT a prophet. Therefore, any teachings (laws) in the Bible that contradict Equality are false by Christ's own words.

Turelie, the only thing asinine ...
is your insistence that we are saying that women were created to be opresses. Where the heck did THAT come from?

This is the last time I'll try to explain. Yes, I love my wife as I love myself. In fact, I deny what I want so that I can give my wife what she needs. Do expect some type of medal or special day named after me. NO! I do it out of obedience to Christ. We look out for each others best interests and complement the others weaknesses with our strenghts. So when I want to buy that new 42" flat panel to watch sports in 1080p, my wife is sensible and says it's not in the budget. When my wife would like to borrow some cash to take a trip to Hawaii, I have to tell her that Destin, FL, will have to do unless she's willing to sacrifice a vacation this year and roll the savings into next. Dave Ramsey wouldn't want us going back into debt.

Marriage is like a Tango. When the two are together as one, it is a thing of beauty. But I guess that's another bad analogy because in dancing, the man leads.

BTW
It is really interesting to see that some (supposed) conservatives react in the exact same way to truth as do liberals. Visceral hatred, ranting and raving, personal attacks, insults and name-calling, knee-jerk discreditation, sarcasm, etc. etc. etc. Anything but argue the facts!!! Anything but engage in logical debate!!! I really thought I would get some good insight here, but so far, no luck. =(

Turelie
Your argument is flawed because you base it on a book that you do not believe to be a unified book aurthored by the creator of the universe.

(2 Peter 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Whatever you believe, it must conform to the entire word of God. If it does not, your belief is false.

(2 Peter 1:21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Whatever Jesus says must agree with the rest of the scriptures, for they are inspired of God and God does not lie.

Whatever you -think- Jesus means may need preeminence over any other scripture, but what he -actually- means is always in complete harmony with all scripture. If the harmony is broken, your understanding is broken.

The very implication that correctly understood scriptures may not be in agreement is offensive.
God Almighty does not suffer from schizophrenia, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the scriptures they wrote, all agree, eternally.

The words of Jesus are equally True to the rest of scripture, they are NOT exalted above the rest, there is no true, truer, truest in the Bible, just Truth. Paul wrote what the Holy Ghost moved him to write, Revelation was given to John by the Alpha and Omega, and they are exactly as True as the words attributed to Jesus by the inspired writers of the Gospels.

(2 Timothy 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The belief that all scripture is not equally reliable is a -rejection- of this scripture. It is fatal to sound doctrine, and will eventually put you beyond the reach of scriptural reproof, correction or instruction.

You will never understand the Bible until you understand it as Gods Word.

aurowatchers 1st post was spot on.

onceamarine
I just read your last two posts, and burst out laughing! I've been following the interchange with Turelie and FROG, mostly because when it comes to my marriage, I like it simple. I don't believe I'm equal to my husband. If I were, we would have the same plumbing, temperament, and a taste for Everquest. I'm not better than he is, just different. Maybe we are equal in heart and mind, but never in body and sense.

Feel free to tell it like it is, for a real woman can handle it!

FROG
Yes, well it looks like you have a great marriage, and that's the point I was making all along. Thank you for the dance analogy, that is correct, but it is not complete. I will add to it with the same philosophy I have been presenting all along: There is NO dancing unless SHE SAYS SO. Yes, you lead, and she dances with you, until you do something she doesn't want or like, and then the dance ends, it's HER decision. You are put in a position to propose where to go, and she is likewise in a position to accept or reject that proposal. That's the way it has always been, that's the way it always will be, equal partners. She does not have to dance just because YOU SAY SO (which is the misrepresentation of marriage most posters have been making). She is the one to authorize that action and THAT is what makes her a FULL and EQUAL partner to YOU, and THAT is what makes a marriage endure eternally. That's all I'm saying. Tango away.

HOW TO HAVE A GREAT WIFE
Just one question: How old are you?

YLG

...A woman after my own heart. Shucks you already have someone, lucky him. Yes, plain spoken is not always my line, But I do appreciate when a woman thinks I'm funny instead of wanting to shoot me.

Now dad always said, I should have been shot along time ago. But God leaves some of us here longer than others just to give them/us a fair chance at learning what He wants us to learn, whatever that is. Thanks for the reply. What's your number.??.


Frigglesnitz.......

Howdy doo, ma'am. Good to see you on this excellent column although you'd never guess it from my one liners. I'm full of it today. Must be the weather.


YLG
I am the one laughing at you. If you do not believe you are equal to your husband, then you are breaking the law of Christ, yes, the second great law upon which all other laws hang. Your logic is appalling. How can you think that just because you have different "plumbing" than your husband that he is superior (or inferior) to you? Is there a "superior" or "inferior" version of plumbing? If there is, who decides?

Have I ever written that equality means sameness? No, I have only written that equality means equal power, equal purpose, equal agency, equal value. Just because someone is bigger and stronger does not mean he is superior to you. Haven't you ever seen that show Ninja Warrior? The big, strong guys can't do what the smaller, nimble guys can do. But according to your philosophy, if a man is bigger or stronger to you, then you are inferior (not equal in body or "sense," whatever that means). Well then, is man who happens to be bigger and stronger than your own husband superior to him? Of course not. Saying that men are superior to women because they are stronger is like saying women are superior to men because they live longer. Is a woman smarter than you superior to you? The equality in marriage I am describing is the exact same equality we espoused as citizens of this nation. We all have equal liberty and are equally children of God. Some people are of the philosophy that we are not equal in liberty/agency once we join in marriage. I am here destroying that philosophy with Christ's own words, and still have not read a single credible argument against it.

Okay, Turelie, here's a scenario...
The company I work for is packing up and moving half way across the country. I've prayed about it and have determined that God's plan is for us to move to the new state. Leaving friends and family, we are to go somewhere where we know virtually no one but a handful of co-workers. My wife says she doesn't want to make the move and insists on staying where we are. I should just get a new job. If we both dig our heals in and don't budge, whose decision is final?

Because I have to log off shortly and leave this wonderful discussion, I'll fill you in. This situation almost happened a dozen or so years ago. My wife, after numerous discussions and going to the Lord in prayer, yielded her will to mine and we moved. She now acknowledges it was the best thing in the world, not only for our children, as we live in a very family friendly town, but for our relationship as well. We were both still young and put too much confidence in the wisdom of family and friends rather than leaning on each other. The separation of 2000 miles, though very difficult at times, was the best thing for us. God knew, He imparted it to me, and thankfully, my wife was obedient to Christ through the teachings of Scripture, and He has blessed us both of for out obedience to the Holy Spirit.

Be well and God Bless.

Oh yeah, Onceamarine, I love your "state it like it is" approach. I had a couple of laugh out loud moments myself!

Tekel ...
thanks for the scriptural reference and refutation of Turelie's belief in only the parts of the Bible she likes. Talk about cherry picking ...

FROG
My bad. No using Philippians. Got it.

If Paul is off-limits, that makes it hard to point out that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23) Nothing in there about pessimism or despair because of other people's imperfections, real or imagined.

:-)

Turelie
Read again: I said we are different. I am equal to him as per your definition. You don't know my philosophy, so don't start putting words in my mouth. However, I seem to be the one here with a sense of humor.

Don't misunderstand me: you do have good, valid points. But it is my firm belief that God has a great sense of humor, as evident from our tussle here. I have found my soulmate, and I know in my heart Jesus approves of my marriage, regardless of what you think about my beliefs or philosophy.

Tekel
Sorry, but what you wrote did not convince me. Why? Because Truth endures, it does not self-destruct. What happened to the church after Christ died? It self-destructed. Therefore, it could not be true. Paul's teachings contradicted Simon Peter, the prophet's, and factions began to break away and ultimately war against one another. Certain rulers began to see this as a problem and tried to reinstate clouded doctrine as truth and enforce it by the sword, but to no avail. The entire world fell into darkness, that's why it was called "The DARK ages." The truth fell way to lies and obscurity, light fell to darkness, function fell to dysfunction (not that it was all that functional in the first place, as indicated by the way Christ was received and ultimately killed).

So what happened? Acts of inequality. At what point can we see where doctrines of inequality began to be practiced in the church? Hmm, right about the time Paul started damaging the marriage relationship by introducing inequality. When did the church fall? Hmm, right about the time the people began practicing inequality in their marriage as they read about it in Paul's epistles. This was no coincidence. There was an apostasy of truth, and it needed to be restored. The church would NOT have fallen if the people would have DONE THEIR DUTY and RIGHTEOUSLY JUDGED the doctrines being taught, as they compared them to Christ's Great Laws. Yes, this would have required the people to reject some of the doctrines of Paul the Apostle, but it would have been the right thing to do. Either reject false doctrines or suffer destruction and death. The people chose destruction and death.

onceamarine
Unfortunately, my number is no longer listed ;-)

I think Turelie needs a good laugh. Maybe she should start reading Robert's resume. It always makes me laugh....

Turelie
I'm curious about how you interpret these words of Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:17-19):

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This passage affirms the abiding validity of the Law given to Moses, which includes elements of husbandly authority in marriage (and a mistress' authority over a maid, among other things). Even if you don't accept the comments cited by Tekel on the nature of scripture (from Peter and Paul), do you really assert that Jesus intended for us to disregard the Law?

One more Love story
Speaking of a one track mind, is it me and my love stories, or most of the rest of the TH posters and their difficult reasoning trying to find the joy that I had for 55 years.

Starting as long as 30 to 40 years ago, my Sweetie and I wrote voluminous Journals about our travels, and other aspects of our lives. Thousands of pages in our journals, thousands on the internet, 5 books, and on and on.

But among the world’s records we hold (guess!!), another record that we loved, is our Wedding Anniversaries. From our Marriage Day, we celebrated our Wedding Anniversaries at a restaurant we had never patronized before. Since I had hosted a thousand business lunches and dinners, the fact that I had discovered a wonderful place to eat, did not change that regulation.

Anniversaries (including Wedding Day) have been celebrated in 55 restaurants in Athens, Greece; Cruise Ships (3); Dallas (2); Ft. Worth; Greimerath, Germany; Las Vegas (4); Los Angeles area (18); Mauna Kea Beach Hotel in Hawaii (the best!!); Lowes Hotel, Monte Carlo (the worst!!); Palm Springs area (16); Park Ridge, Ill (Wedding day); Phoenix; San Diego (2); San Francisco; Santa Barbara; Strasbourg, France.

FROG
Yes, your scenario is typical of the difficult decisions in marriage. My question is, why aren't you BOTH praying to God together to receive an answer to this important question? If you have received an answer and the answer is yes, then it is only a matter of time before she gets her answer as well, and she will go with you knowing it is the will of God. God does not give answers to one person in a marriage, and expect the other to blindly follow. If she has questions, she must ask God. I suspect what's troubling you is if she refuses to ask God, because she knows the answer is that you should move, and doesn't want to know the truth. You should pray for her that she will receive the correct answer, and she will. But even if she refuses to ask the question, in all righteousness you cannot force her to do what you want her to do. God does not force us to do what He wants us to do. Force never works. Force is Satanic in nature. Truth endures. The truth will be made known to her eventually, and your relationship will be strengthened as a result. This is where the principle of Faith comes in. Like most faith building experiences, they can be trying at times. But if you truly want to do right by God and right by your wife, it will turn out well in the end.

jim
Instead of restaurants, we go to state parks. You can't IMAGINE the fun we have outdoors!!;-)

We got to go to Kilauea for my birthday one year, and had dinner in Volcano, Hawaii. The restaurant is owned by the chef, who used to be the make-up artist on "Magnum, PI". Surprisingly, the food was good, even if a little pricey for the area.

Andrew Tallman is genius (not)
WOW this is so chocked full of cliche and BS.

You are talking about the Christian HEAD SHIP RULE, where the man is the leader and the woman WILL submit to the man. The man however must love the wife like Jesus loves all of us.

Great blaa blaa blaa. The fact is most woman, especially conservative woman, Republicans are "independent" and don't want to be led.

The FACT is Andrew you are so FAR from the lord. You are NO better than the murder on death ROW. GET OFF YOU HIGH HORSE.

Your wife? If you don’t give her what she wants:

>"she will become just the sort of wife you
>don’t want: nagging, withholding, bitter, and
>frustrated. You’d have done better to remain
>single than to so ruin the beautiful human rose
>He entrusted to you."

Has you wife be withholding?

Really, dude I'm looking at your picture and have to be honest, you don't look very masculine. Does your wife have low self esteem? Do you really think YOU'RE THE MAN!

Does your wife sit around waiting for chocolate and attention from you to make her day. Woman want men to be men not wussies. Men want woman to woman and strong and independent is fine with me and most men, who are men enough to understand that.

I would rather an independent woman than a doormat. I find your article either childishly naive or offensively retarded and condescending to woman.

FROG
Oh sorry, I kind of skimmed your second paragraph because you said you were logging off shortly. Okay, so this scenario happened, and it DID turn out well in the end, because she loves you and trusted you, and even obeyed you. That is fine and it worked out well because it was the right thing to do, but I suspect she did not similarly receive a definitive answer from God because she was afraid to ask in the first place. Sometimes we are that way, we know sometimes God asks of us difficult things and so we rationalize that putting off asking Him or refusing an answer will buy us time. I suspect that instead of really asking God, she put it off for a while just to see if a local job would suddenly materialize and therefore moving would not be necessary. I am guilty of this myself, of course.

The question is, what if the situation were reversed? What if a wife received an answer that her family was to move, and the husband loved the area so much that he wasn't even willing to ask God the question? Does his will override hers, just because he is the appointed leader? No, they have the same charge in each scenario, to get confirmation by God to know what to do. If one person refuses, force cannot be implemented, which force is inequality, and is destructive. God's will will eventually be made manifest if the person who knows God's will remains faithful that his wife will receive it.

In your case, your will did not override your wife's will. She still had to authorize the action, even if she did so based on trust and obedience and not upon personal revelation. But it would have been BETTER if she had based it upon spiritual confirmation so she could know that moving was right from the beginning, and not coming to terms with it after months of initial sorrow or regret about the decision.

jim
God has greatly blessed you. Believe me, your memories are being read and cherished.

I do want to engage civilly and kindly with Turelie though. I want her to know that disagreement with her concept of how equality ought to be enforced on this earth doesn't constitute a bludgeon to her worth among us. I've never been exactly where she is (I always accepted 2 Timothy 3:16, for example, and Paul's letters as covered by it), but I do recognize some of the landscape.

If we can keep both the Submission Police and the Equality Police out of marriage, we do a lifetime's good work, I think. That seems, actually, to be the thrust of Tallman's original column. :-)

dyerje
The answer to your question is in the scripture's very first sentence.

A perfect man had not come to the Earth yet to set a perfect example for mankind, therefore, the Law of Moses was temporary, and preparatory. Temporary until what? Until Christ could come to the Earth and fulfil that law, which means (in the dictionary) "To acheive something, to satisfy something, to Complete something." The Law of Moses is INCOMPLETE, TEMPORARY, and Christ was sent to fulfil, or complete it, and make it permanent. The law of Moses is the same law, but incomplete. What was the purpose of the law of Moses? To prepare everyone for the Complete law, the gospel of Jesus Christ (equality). Just like I am saying Paul the Apostle's doctrine is INCOMPLETE.

Jesus came to the Earth with the message of eternal liberty and equality and thereby fulfilled or completed all other inferior laws, and after He died then Paul began to revert back to the incomplete doctrines of inequality, which action preceded the downfall of the entire church. You can't obey incomplete laws after you've been given the complete ones, because then the complete, or fulness, of the law IS the law, and not the old, incomplete one. So that be said, this scripture reaffirms the incompleteness of the Law of Moses, which means that God does NOT want us to be masters of our wives any longer, because if this was the law, then why did Jesus need to come to "Fulfil," or Complete it?

Therefore, the incomplete, inferior law before Christ is: "The husband is the authority in marriage."
The complete, superior law from Christ on is: "All are created equal under God." This means that in order to be equal, if the husband has authority in marriage, then so does the wife also have equal authority in marriage. I have already established how this could be so.

YLG
I wouldn't have an unlisted phone number in my possession. Wouldn't be caught dead with it. I probably would be dead if your husband found me with a certain unlisted phone number. Thanks for saving my life. First thing a Texan learns is to stay away from unlisted numbers. We shoot anyone who doesn't learn the lesson soon enough to avoid being shot.

Yes, your friend, Turelie, certainly needs a good laugh, but from my long experience, there is none that will do her. Some people, I don't know if it's a life long problem, can't laugh about, only at. Should we feel sorry for her. Maybe, but why.??. I feel sorry for a cat that's run over or a child with polio, but some animals are easier to like than some people. Sorry..


But enough of that.
YLG writes: Thursday, November, 15, 2007 5:09 PM
jim
Instead of restaurants, we go to state parks. You can't IMAGINE the fun we have outdoors!!;-)
=============

Well, since we have traveled in our RV in at least 45 states and 9 Canadian Provinces, you can be sure we had a lot of fun in dozens of state and National Parks.

And on top of that, we have driven 87,000 miles, and spent 605 nights in 406 spots in over 380 towns, cities, and other locations, in about 28 European Countries in our RV. So just imagine who has had to most outdoor fun? Except for the Vatican. Oh well, can’t win them all, each and every one, but one.

Often when we started out in the morning we had no idea where we were going to be that night, many times we didn’t even know the country where we would sleep

Cruise ships and ferry boats, with us aboard, have touched at perhaps 124 different points on 5 continents, on about 40 countries or major islands.

So speaking of fun!!!!!!

dyerje
Yes, I appreciate your engaging civilly and kindly with me. It is also interesting how everyone in here has made the assumption that I am a "she."

There is no such thing as the "Equality Police." There are only those who abide in equality in its true and eternal form, and then there are those who are trying to falsely redefine equality. I take it that your disdain of "Equality Policemen" stems from the fact that you yourself have been confused by the false definition. Equality is never wrong, never bad, never false, and it never dies. It is an eternal blessing from God to all His children. It is only us mortals that mess it up. If you think that Equality is bad, that is only because you are buying into the false definition of equality as "sameness." I don't blame you, it is not hard to do especially when we have "Sameness Police" destroying our country. Do "Sameness Policemen" really believe in true equality? No, because they impose by force their will upon others. This is the essence of inequality, imposing your own will upon someone else.

That is the issue I have with this article, and with the apostate Christian definition of marriage. If someone is imposing their will upon you, even in the name of God, it is inequality, and therefore false, even in marriage. Christ could not and would not impose His will upon anyone, neither can God, and neither should man. We are all sovereign children of God, with our own agency, and endowed with equality. Denying either of these only brings death and destruction. Perfect equality should reside in marriage, or it is not a true marriage. That is the glaring problem with Tallman's article.

As for Mr. Tallman.
....he doesn't deserve the kind of remarks made by Mr. Jet Pain in the azkazoo. ""You are NO better than the murder on death ROW."" Wow, what brains it takes to write something as stupid as this. I wonder if he's on his third or fourth Bourbon on the rocks; rocks in his head.

Nor do I give Tallman especially high marks since after all these are more political columns than religious ones. Sunday services whether held during the week or not, still pretty much belong in church. It is after all a pretty fine sermon. And I don't care whether Mr Jet pilot pain in the azkazoo likes it or not. Quite frankly, my dear.


Jim

In how many Mexican states have you traveled.??. Most people are unaware there are 32 states in Mexico plus the federal district (DF)(Mexico City) which has 10% of the Mexican population just in that one small city, nor are they aware that the official name of the country is The Mexican United States.
(originally until the 1930's, The United States of Mexico)

I presume you have also traveled in Central and South American countries. Sounds like you have had a lot of opportunities to get around this old world.


Turelie
What did Jesus say about marriage? Show me your references before you say I don't understand His teachings on marriage.

Jesus said things that were recorded in the Gospels, but He also gave His apostles teachings which were recorded in their writings. They are every bit as much God's Scriptures as the red letters. That's fortunate, because except for Matthew 19:8, where He addresses divorce, Jesus didn't have much to say about marriage.

Biblical passages directly addressing marriage are mainly found in the epistles.

1 Corinthians 7:29
Ephesians 5:22-28
Colossians 3:18-19
Titus 2:4-5
1 Peter 3:1-7
1 Timothy 3:12

In these you will see a clear pattern of instruction. Wives are to be submitted to their husbands (not as doormats, but as helpmates) and husbands are to love their wives as Jesus loved the Church (in other words, be willing to die for her).

You can make all sorts of claims based upon what YOU believe, but please don't say that Jesus taught something if you can't back it up with Biblical proof.

To Frog
thanks for the kind words of advice, "First, get your life in order and learn to be the type of person that someone can love and respect for a lifetime."

Thought I had those bases covered: Engineering degree from a large and respected university, solid career with a Fortune 100 company, no debt, no criminal record, lot of good friends, clean-lifestyle, with no bad habits (overweight, drugs, smoking, alcoholism, extra-marital affairs). Church-going life-long Christian in a mainstream denomination, good dancer, a guy who tried hard to walk the walk. Treat ladies like ladies, with gentleness and respect and humor. The other guys had similar credentials.

Even with all that, the lesson I learned (and so did my buddies), is that you never know. In fact, some of us concluded that we may have been easy targets for the gold-digger types.

Congrats to all the guys who are winners in the lady-wife-lottery. You are far luckier than you know. Buy her some roses, and be thankful that there is someone in your life who is thrilled to receive roses from you.

And to the poster above who judges guys by how they treat their mothers/sisters, be careful there. Not all guys have mothers that are June Cleaver types (that's a reference to the almost-perfect mom in Leave It To Beaver, in case anybody does not know).

Turelie 1
Obviously there are quite a number of ways in which we differ on this. The following things are worth noting -- I know they won't convince you today, but here they are:

1. Regarding Paul "reverting" to the inequality of the Law. This is an odd claim, since Paul is the one who explicates why and how we are NO LONGER under the Law. (Various passages in Romans 2 through 7, most of Galatians.) Far from reverting to legalism, Paul's letters have been the foundation of the church's understanding of grace, as superseding the Law without repudiating it. The discussion is much too long to go into here, but one can't read the actual words of Paul and also characterize him as someone who is reverting to the Law, as against the grace introduced by Jesus.

2. You ask rhetorically why Jesus needed to come to fulfill, or complete, the Law, implying that this need was due to the Law being an instrument of inequality.

Jesus himself never repudiates the Law as a flawed instrument. In fact, on one of the rare occasions when he expressed an opinion on a provision of the Law, he implied that the Law was a way to protect women in marriage, by specifying how a husband is bound to behave in the matter of divorce, rather than leaving men to abandon their wives without any obligations before God and the community. (See Matthew 19.)

But Paul provides the answer to your question in his discussion of the Law and grace -- see especially Romans 2-3. The author of Hebrews addresses the question directly, especially in chapters 7-9.

The incompleteness of the Law was that it identified sin and provided for punishment, but it could not save us from punishment, or change our spirits to make us into a "new creation." The Law told us what the just punishment was for sin, and provided for atoning sacrifice, but it was an endless cycle that never changed our hearts or gave us the mind of Christ. It rebuked and condemned us; but it could not save us.

Turelie 2
The Law also set up a hierarchy, an earthly priesthood, literally between God and His people. Hebrews is very clear that Jesus is now our High Priest, and we no longer require the intervention of an earthly hierarchy (or the system of animal sacrifices) to interact with God.

But only one prohibition of the Mosaic Law is specifically revoked in the New Testament: the prohibition on eating with the Gentiles or eating their (formerly "unclean") food. (Acts 11:1-10)

And Jesus' most famous encounter with enforcement of the Law -- the woman caught in adultery -- encapsulates exactly the distinction Paul makes in Romans and Galatians. Jesus doesn't say the woman is not guilty under the Law. In fact, he tells her to go and sin no more. What he does do is intervene to prevent the PUNISHMENT of the Law from being executed for her sin. (John 8:3-11) That brief scene -- that IS the message of Jesus, in a nutshell.

Bottom line: there are reasons why the Law required fulfillment, that are NOT the reason you suggest -- and they are explained in the New Testament (as well as presaged in the Old Testament prophets).

Turelie, you are a dear sister with a hard-working mind and an admirable aspiration to value. Only God can convince you of the truth of anything.

I do urge you to place your reliance on HIS unchanging qualities, rather than on any arrangements we humans can make on earth. That very much includes exhorting each other to specific recognitions of equality. The best news of all is that God, with whom we are NOT equal, has treated us as if we were much better than "equal." It's not our inequality with Him that matters, but His unchanging goodness.

Roles vs equality…

In Christian marriage there is a distinction to be made between our equal standing before the Lord as the redeemed and our proper roles as believers. In Galatians the apostle leaves no doubt that in Christ there are no distinctions between men; in the gospel all barriers are removed that separate us; all without distinction are invited to come, and He has promised to accept all who do come…


‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus’ [Galatians 3:28].


The same apostle writes in Ephesians that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church. He is the authority over his wife as Christ is head over the church…


‘Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything’ [Ephesians 5:22-24].


Will we let our liberty in Christ be used as an occasion for sin to neglect our proper roles as husbands and wives? God forbid!

Our roles are given in Titus 2 under the heading of sound doctrine that we might as the church of the living God ‘adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.’

The admonition to all Christians given in Colossians 3 must be brought home to the marriage relationship…’bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.’

The power to live with another person who struggles with there own sins and selfish desire to please self rather than to deny self comes from understanding the gospel message from the heart. Consider what you have been forgiven. Will you withhold mercy from another that Christ has accepted?

Texn Engneer
If you are referring to me regarding the "how men treat their mothers" comment, you misread what I said.

If you have a trustworthy mother or sister, you very often have a highly reliable Golddigger Detector.

Family members -- especially mothers -- often accurately identify bad matches for their loved ones early on. This works both ways: for both sons and daughters.

Taking a woman around to meet your other middle-aged male friends, on the other hand, will not usually yield the same kind of insight.

Texn Engneer

I find your self description to be probable and partially perhaps explains some of the problem.

You appear to be an easy mark for a lot of today's young women who are not Christians. Neither of you recognize that until it's too late. Many women want a guy who is a little bad, keeps them on their toes.

These same women are commonly good dressers, chic and well educated. Just the ones you'd expect to find with your education and circumstances. But you are not really what they imagined they would find or at least not what they seemed to want. In different words, you are too good for the women you would naturally find and expect to be like you.

Heaven help you to look for and understand when you meet the right kind of woman.

As an engineer from Texas but a lot more years than you, I may know what I am talking about.


onceamarine
"Unlisted phone numbers"?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

As far as liking animals more than people, I firmly believe Jesus wants us to love our neighbor. He never said anything about liking them, though....

Just how many Texans are on this column!?!?

Analogous relationship
Jesus gave an analogy -- His Church is like a bride. The Church is called the Bride of Christ. In Ephesians 5:24, wives are exhorted to "submit to your husbands as the church is submitted to Christ."

Yes, all Christians stand equal before the Lord in terms of salvation and judgment. However, we should guard against ever thinking we're equal to God. We're not. The Church submits to Christ and that's where Jesus' analogy comes in to focus. In marriage, the bride submits to the husband because God has set him over us, just as Christ was set over the Church. In a truly Christian marriage that is not meant to be a problem, but a good and worthy thing. It's what makes marriages function best. But, it only works if both parties are submitted to God. Things are bound to be out of balance if either spouse wants their own way rather than Jesus'.

James 4:7-10 says "Therefore, submit to God. But resist the Devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners, and purify your hearts, double-minded people! Be miserable and mourn and weep. Your laughter must change to mourning and your joy to sorrow. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you."

There you have it. Submit to God and that whole submit-to-your-spouse thing ceases to be onerous.

Some men on this thread
Some of you really don't understand Biblical submission. I can tell this when you're whining that your wife doesn't do anything and she wants help with her "chores."

Wow! How self-centered!

I work 44 hours a week at a paid position. My husband works about 40 with an occasional on-call weekend. I also earn money as a writer. We have two children and a house, pets, and an active youth ministry. Since all four of us use the house, it is no more my job than anyone else's to clean it. I do my share. My husband does his. We both nag the kids to do theirs. My job is an important part of what supports our lifestyle. It's not a hobby. It's a job. My husand knows this. We cooperate with one another to make our lives run smoothly.

Submission in a marriage does NOT mean the wife runs around after her full-time job doing all the cooking and cleaning while you sit there and watch sports on TV. If you live in the house, you make the mess too and should help with cleaning it up. I know a lot of men who believe their job is somehow more important than their wife's job, but usually when you ask them whether they could afford to do without her income -- well, no. If the wife stays at home, then the house is her job, but if she works outside of the home, chores should be divided reasonably.

Anyone not understanding that, I suggest you read Proverbs 31. Biblical women can be submissive without being doormats. I have never read anywhere in Scripture where the wife is to be a devalued slave. She is to be a respected partner. The partnership is only slightly weighted toward the husband because this mirrors Christ's relationship with His Bride, the Church.

Turelie - your 4:45 post
What the blank are you babbling about? Clearly you've never read the New Testament or you wouldn't be making unsupported statements like Paul's teachings contradicted Peter's.

Show us the references!

Whichever
aurorawatcher writes: Thursday, November, 15, 2007 3:45 AM

"We've been partially successful, which gives us a reason to continue our exploration of each other's psyches for another few decades ... or until Christ comes back, whichever comes first."

Thank God for the former and pray for the latter!

God Bless.

Onceamarine
I don't know whether to address you as Sir or Gunny. Either way, you have my undying respect, and heartfelt thanks for your service. And I do believe you are close to the mark with your assessment.

The group of guys I grew up with (the buddies I refer to) were taught by our elders (uncles, dads, older male cousins and siblings) to reserve the rough stuff for the athletic fields, and always be gentle with women. The ultimate compliment was "he is strong enough to be gentle." I find that in California, though, that gentleness is mis-interpreted as wimpiness.

In any event, I appreciate all the comments on this post, and, being much older, wiser, and somewhat sadder now, look forward to the day my trust-o-meter begins to work again.

On the other hand, there is some truth to the saying that if you want to make God laugh, make plans!

And, to dyerje, no offense meant, ma'am. Just making the point that not everyone has loving, well-meaning experienced women in their lives who are willing and able to provide that kind of input. Sometimes, if there are any around at all, they just smile and say everything will work out just fine.

aurorawatcher
*sigh* - yes, you certainly are "blank." Read up on the history yourself.

aurorawatcher
Jesus did not say much about marriage, not because He didn't have anything to say, but because the people didn't and wouldn't understand what marriage really is, just as you yourself do not understand what it is. If you did, you'd understand the scripture you just quoted. You think this scripture has to do with divorce, but reread it and you'll find that Jesus is referring to the ETERNAL nature of marriage rather than divorce - "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives, but from the beginning it was not so." Here is a PERFECT example of what I am saying about Jesus's teachings, so thanks for pointing it out. BECAUSE OF THE HARDNESS OF PEOPLE'S HEARTS, or because of their sinful nature, prophets like Moses had to "suffer" or succumb to the demands by people to institute laws that are against the laws of God. What are the laws of God? FOR THE LAST TIME, GOD'S GREATEST LAWS ARE TO PUT GOD OVER OURSELVES IN LOVE, AND TO PUT EVERYONE ELSE EQUAL TO OURSELVES IN LOVE.

You can say the same thing about the entire Law of Moses, as you can about America. Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered you to enshrine "An Eye for an Eye," but from the beginning, it was NOT SO. The founding fathers, because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered the Constitution to allow slavery, but from the beginning, IT WAS NOT SO.

aurorawatcher continued
The listed epistles are only correct inasmuch as they COINCIDE with God's laws, as the scriptures so clearly demonstrate a penchant for people, even prophets and apostles, TO INSTITUTE FALSE LAW AGAINST THE LAW OF GOD. No, wives are NOT to be "submitted to their husbands," they are BOTH to be submitted to EACH OTHER EQUALLY UNDER GOD. There's no other way a marriage can be eternal, but in equality. Also, just to enlighten you a bit, you have wrongly translated "Helpmates" from the biblical "Helpmeet." Do you even know what "Helpmeet" means? In Hebrew, the word is K'enegdo, which means "A Power Equal To."

aurorawatcher
Your posts keep demonstrating your weak argument. Somehow "Biblical" equality is different than true equality? How can this be? Either one is true and the other is false, or they are both false. They cannot both be true. Consider this, you were given the choice of a superior, dominant role in a relationship or an inferior, submissive role in a relationship, which would you choose? You have many more problems than I can address if you choose the latter. The superior choice is obviously the former. Therefore, the roles are NOT EQUAL. Why is this such a difficult principle to understand? The roles are equal only when one choice is not superior to the other, but are equal. Please come up with a more coherent argument next time.

Also, here's another false statement you made. "However, we should guard against ever thinking we're equal to God. We're not." Why are you afraid of thinking we are in a parent-child relationship with God? It's the truth. We are equal to God in the same way Parents are equal to their children. Are they equal now? No, not yet, but we can BECOME equal to them once we learn everything we need to know from them. All children have the capacity to become AS their parents, just as all of God's children has the capacity to become like their Heavenly parents.

aurorawatcher
Your "Analogous relationship" post is also wrong. I am getting tired of rebutting false arguments. If Christ is the bridegroom and the Church is the bride, then they have BOTH submitted themselves to one another. This reinforces MY argument, not yours. How did He submit to us, the church? He willingly submitted Himself to pay for our sins, our sicknesses, our infirmities. This was God's will, and also our will, because if He did not accomplish the Atonement then we would remain forever in our sins. He submits many, many times a day to us in the act of forgiving us for our repeated mistakes. We will His forgiveness, and He grants it to us. How do we reciprocate this submission so that this relationship can remain equal, stable, eternal? We give Him our will, and try to do the best we can by following His commandments. What is His greatest commandment? To love God over us, and everyone else equal to us.

Why Is This So Complicated?
Why is this so complicated? It's simple. I have been married 55 years. Here's how it goes: 1) Find somebody who is trying hard to do something you think is worthwhile. 2) Help him or her do it. 3) This works both ways. Period.

Short on references
I'm seeing a lot of God wants this and that, but not much Scripture, especially from Turelie. Where's the support?

The problem I have with the advice
in this article is not that it is untrue. It is that it can very, very easily get completely out of balance if a woman is manipulative (and I have known my share). Once that happens, we might as well hand her a t-shirt that reads "it's all about me" because everything in this article will be used to fuel an entitlement mentality.

My own failed marriage is a testament to this imbalance.

Don't get me wrong: I have read the New Testment cover to cover many times and I understand the biblical role of the husband and how he should lay down his life for his wife. I don't disagree with it, and have sought to live it. But like almost everything in the Bible, it requires balance and must be put in the proper context.

When ANYBODY subscribes to the lie that it is their "job" to make another individual happy, it is a recipe for disaster. It results in an entitlement mentality in which one party is a professional giver, the other party is a professional taker, and the bible is erroneously employed to justify the imbalance.

Marriage requires two people who both give 100%. Not 50/50, and certainly not 90/10. The fallicy here is that a man is ultimately responsible for the happiness of their wife.

He is not and nowhere does the Bible teach that I am responsible for my spouse's happiness. I have a responsibility to meet their needs, not to kill myself trying to satisfy their wants.

The psycho-babble term for this "when mama is happy, papa is happy" baloney is "co-dependence." I never liked the term, but it applies more often than we'd like to think in an age where Paris Hilton is often the role model for women rather than the profile we're given in Proverbs 31.

Errors of Paul?
Turelie writes: Thursday, November, 15, 2007 9:02 PM

"The listed epistles are only correct inasmuch as they COINCIDE with God's laws,..."

So do they, or don't they, and can you support your implication of Pauline errors? Specifics?

A rule I had forgotten
When I mentioned our rules at 4:52 PM, I forgot the most important one, “If my Sweetie wants, I will buy it.” I am lucky that the only really, for real, actual, ridiculous item she ever wanted was me.

She loved to get a beautiful reminder of the places we visited. That’s why we ended up with a couple of hundred fantastic reminders and collectibles. The last time a jeweler looked at the ring and bracelet we paid $200 for in Florence in 1970, he said $8,000.

There are a couple of hundred items, such as dishes, copper and brass items such as trays, pots, kettles, scales, and of course the 50 items in my cane collection.

Not everything cost money. Many of the things we have and enjoy, most likely will not be found in any other home in this, or any other neighborhood. How many of you have a link of anchor chain from the Island of Saipan?

We walked up Mt. Vesuvius and picked up a large piece of lava to take home with us. We wanted to place it right next to the piece of lava from Hawaii. There are two ten-inch pieces of the Berlin Wall along with the hammer that did it, and on and on. I have video of me hammering, and hammering to break the Wall.

And it only takes 4 or 5,000 pages to describe all this in our Journals, our 5 books, and our Internet site.

But I must repeat one Gem that I wrote for my Beautiful Sweetie, that tells it all.

The eye can see and the heart c