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Thursday, October 11, 2007
Amy Ridenour :: Townhall.com Columnist
SCHIP, Graeme Frost, and the Bloggers
by Amy Ridenour
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Do people on the dole have a reasonable expectation of privacy vis-à-vis their financial affairs?

No.

That question, though not always my answer, is coming up frequently as defenders of the Democratic Party's $35 billion SCHIP expansion proposal condemn bloggers and talk show hosts, including Rush Limbaugh, who have examined the statement penned by aides to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, and delivered as the official Democratic Party rebuttal to President Bush's weekly radio address by 12-year-old Graeme Frost, that the State Childrens Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) is for "families like mine."

The questioners' question: If Graeme Frost's family isn't all that low-income, then maybe the SCHIP program doesn't need to be expanded by $35 billion to cover millions of extra families with even higher incomes than the Frosts apparently have.

Rather than address the core question, some say it is inappropriate even to consider the Frost family's circumstances, even if the people doing the considering are helping the Frosts raise their kids. This assumption reverses a thousand years of philanthropic practice.

Throughout history, charity has typically been given out voluntarily and to people whose circumstances were directly known to the donor. Donors usually knew, or could learn, if a recipient genuinely couldn't meet his own needs. As population growth and industrialization led to fewer people living in small towns, charity grew more impersonal. Then the growth of the welfare state made “charity” mandatory. And finally, hastened along by certain wrong-headed Supreme Court decisions, helped by activism by welfare advocacy lobbyists, an assumption developed that people who receive handouts are due privacy along with the help.

The obligation to be self-sufficient when possible had been reversed: Now the self-sufficient are obligated to assist those who are not, and it is considered bad form for the donor to question if the charity is misplaced.

There's more involved in the Frost case, of course, namely the fact that the family itself put its financial condition in the public square by agreeing to serve as the public face of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi's $35 billion public health expansion. Once you let your son go on a national broadcast to ask Americans to consider your financial situation, you ought not be surprised if a few of your fellow Americans do just that. Nor should you be surprised if some of them conclude that in some ways your life seems more prosperous their own, and they don't expect other people to pay for their health insurance, so why do you?

And maybe some of these people will note that Graeme Frost's argument -- that his family needed help -- was irrelevant to the issue at hand anyway, because the present SCHIP debate on Capitol Hill is between those who want to expand SCHIP by $5 billion dollars (President Bush) and those who want to expand it by $35 billion (mostly Democrats and Senators Grassley and Hatch). All other things equal, the Frost family gets taxpayer-financed health insurance either way.

What's regrettable about the SCHIP debate is not that the Frost family received national attention after seeking it out, but that so many important parts of the debate are being glossed over. Nothing in the Reid-cum-Frost radio presentation, for instance, mentioned that the Reid-Pelosi $35 billion SCHIP expansion plan is underfunded.

The big-spending expansion proponents urge Congress to adopt a 61 cents per pack cigarette tax increase to pay for expansion. But as Michelle C. Bucci and William W. Beach of the Heritage Foundation have pointed out, there aren't enough smokers to pay the SCHIP expansion tab. Bucci and Beach say new tobacco tax funds may be sufficient for no more than two years' worth of the expansion, and certainly not much more. What will Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi do then? Start running public service announcements asking people to take up smoking, because the Frost family needs help?

Reid and Pelosi aren't telling the full truth about the price tag of their big baby, either. As the Wall Street Journal has reported, $35 billion is the price tag for extra spending for just five years. As the Journal put it, "come 2012 Congress will either have to pass new spending or kick kids off the rolls. The chances of the latter happening are approximately zero..."

Another inconvenient truth left out of the Reid-Frost presentation is the bitter little fact that whatever funding a tobacco tax increase provides will be highly regressive -- even as the SCHIP expansion makes that program less regressive. As David Hogberg in his paper "SCHIP Expansion: Socialized Medicine on the Installment Plan" for the National Center for Public Policy Research pointed out, if the expansion plan is adopted, "it is not inconceivable that a parent with one child with an income of $13,690 will be funding benefits for two children in a family of four with an income of $82,600."

12-year-old Graeme Frost probably doesn't know the SCHIP expansion he's fronting for would tax the poor to fund the middle class. What's Harry Reid's excuse?

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About The Author
That's why this bill
Has NEVER been about helping kids. It's about control. It's always about control. It's about the federal gov't coming up with new and creative ways to manage the public's behavior.

And the public takes "hook, line, and sinker" as "helping children."

amazing
so people who are on the social roles are not equal citizens as you and me? they are not covered under privacy laws like you and me? how astonishingly stupid.
you have a national platform by writing this article. does that mean you are fair game to whatever whim a person who doesn't agree with can seek against you?
attack the messenger?
if you live in new york city, chicago, L.A., newark, philidelpia, after you pay taxes, provide basic needs for a family of 4 or even 3, there is not much money left for savings let alone a major illness or accident.
it seems that only the people who have good health insurance make over 150k a year are against this program.
it was the greatest liberal of all time, JESUS CHRIST, who said to take care of the sick , feeble, people in need, the homeless. and in a counrty with as much wealth as this, this article is absolutely shameful.


Hmmm
So the only people that have good health care make more than $150k per year? Huh?

Something tells me that isn't at all accurate.

The point of the column is that extending social programs like this one to people that really don't need it, is a political game designed to give the gov't even more control over our lives. It's not designed to help underpriviledged kids. If it was, families falling into the upper end of the middle class wouldn't be eligible.

And yes Jesus Christ did want us to take care of the sick, feeble, and people in need. That's why faith based charities are so successful and do so much good. Charity vs. gov't coercion. Private charity does pretty well and I get to decide what to do with my money.

Thanks elong!
The whole point of Christianity is that every person is responsible for his or her actions. I might not know "John Smith" in St. Paul, MN, who needs help; but I know "Bill Jones" in Greenwood, MS, who needs help and I will help him.

These are my choices! I am not being forced to help some one I don't even know. Or even worse, forced to help some one who I know doesn't need or deserve the help.

If "selmo" wants to give ALL his money away, that is fine by me. But don't tell me that I HAVE to help anybody.

Give my regards to the Dodo
The Republican party is in a solid 30% minority on this issue, so keep hammering the Frost family, and enjoy the trip to political extinction.

Jay
I don't think anyone is "hammering" the Frost family. The fact that the dems are using this kid as a political football in order to expand governmental control of our lives is what is being hammered here.

Subsidizing risk
The issue at stake here is whether or not there should means testing for subsidies. The state of Maryland effectively subsidized the Frosts commercial real estate investment. If they’re meant to be representative recipients of the program, then it’s a program that subsidizes middle class risk. And maybe that’s not a program that taxpayers really want to fund.

Using the 12 year old child as a distraction is inexcusable. On both sides.

-- Patrick Stpehens
http://www.psjs.net

elong
People who make 150k a year can afford the deductables. People who make 150k a year , for the most part, aren't going bankrupt to pay medical bills.
50% of all bancruptcies are because of medical bills which are overwhelming.So i guess,reading some of these comments, that losing ones home and filing for bancruptcy, and destroying a persons savings is o.k. as long as the free market system is not comprimised.

I don't think that selmo is telling anyone to give all their money away. but helping the poor and needy is the thing which makes america the greatest country in the world. why is it conservatives can involk jesus' name when it suits them, but when someone has an opinion contrary to yours, Jesus' rules don't apply.
The schip program is a great program and was hailed a sucess even by g.w.b.. Yet, for the president to say that the program is too expensive and still want 190billion to fund his war is really repulsive.

If faith based charities are doing so well, why are we having this discussion?
The grey ghost says that Christianity is about being responsible for yourself. YOu don't have to help anyone. you should want to help. Keep your money in your pocketand if the time comes where you need help, I hope people don't have that same attitude towards you.It may say that somewhere in the Bible , yet the whole New Testimate is about charity, forgiveness, and caring about your fellow humans.
Malkin going to the Frosts home, posting their addressand where the father works isn't hammering the family. They have recieved death threats for god's sake

The government caused the problem
The government caused the problem with health care in America by over socializing medicine to the extent it is not completive, and we want to exacerbate the problem? Kids have health care. The needy already have health care. The U.S. is not a socialist state ( see http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl ). No one is entitled to be given a house, car, food or health care, etc. If we want these things, we have to earn them. The government does not earn money. Perhaps some of us should take a civics class and learn about America. We all have to labor for what we want. For those who need help there are the charities and state programs. We need to fix the health care issue but we cannot fix it unless we know how it is broken. For the answer, please see http://www.InteliOrg.com/

rightiswrong
I was referring to this particular column. If the family is getting threats, that's just evil.

I don't think selmo is telling anyone to give their money away. He's advocating having more stolen from us than there already is.

Stealing my money and giving it to someone else isn't Christian, it's coersion. I give to charity every chance I get. It's my choice. That's the point here.

The Schip program is a good program for the families that it was originally intended for. The Dems reached too far on this one. Sorry. they did. It's about control.

Is there no shame TH?
First of all, the Frost family is not on the "dole". It's interesting how the right will sanctimoniously - yea, even reverently - accept anything anyone says, so long as it aligns with their ideology. But cross them with dissenting views and it doesn't matter if it's a soldier or General, victim of Parkinson's or a 12year old kid suffering from catastrophic injury, they will bury them with slime and smear tactics. Vicious, hypocritical bunch, Righwingers.

And who decides what income is low enough to qualify for help? The fact that these kids have scholarships to the schools they go to - Gemma having to go to a particular school for her BRAIN INJURY - has no bearing on their ability to shoulder their healthcare costs.

And really, what self-respecting American is going to purposely deny healthcare to kids? Oh, yeah----Republicans, the "family values party". The Compassionate Conservatives. What a surprise.

the Frosts have made crappy
financial decisions and are wrong to expect the government to bail them out. What makes conservatives like the author of this article different from the liberals is that conservatives would rather struggle and be faced with terrible health care choices than to have no choice at all, which is what would happen under socialized medicine. Living in a free society means having the freedom to go into debt trying to pay for the cost of health care and having the choice to quit your job and take a job you hate because it offers health insurance or to sell your house and move into a homeless shelter to pay for medical costs. People who live in societies that have socialized medicine don’t have these kinds of choices; they have to take the health care the government gives them.


And Selmo
Elong is absolutely right -- it's about charity (voluntary giving) versus government coercion. And Selmo, you admonish others to use spellchecker: OK, it's on the 'social rolls' not 'social roles', and it's 'Philadelphia' not philidelpia, and it's 'country' not 'counrty'. Le'Chaim.


talisman says
Talisman says: "And who decides what income is low enough to qualify for help"? No, talisman, the proper question is: who decides what income is high enough not to qualify for help? Because SCHIP isn't about the kids, it's about liberals hypocritically and shamelessly using children as pawns for their own ends. Now there's something Jesus would condemn. Le'Chaim.

Let 'em eat ...
elong: "I don't think selmo is telling anyone to give their money away. He's advocating having more stolen from us than there already is.

Stealing my money and giving it to someone else isn't Christian, it's coersion. I give to charity every chance I get. It's my choice. That's the point here."

I don't think *stealing* means what you think it means.

St. Pehens: "The state of Maryland effectively subsidized the Frosts commercial real estate investment."

I don't think *subsidize* means what you think it means. There is no connection between their commercial real estate investment and SCHIPS.

Perhaps it would be best if the Frost family liquified their assets in order to pay the costs related to the catastrophic
event that led to this. It's likely they would have been bankrupted even if they had had insurance prior to the event given the propensity of carriers to use their vast resources to the end of finding ways not to pay for care.

Especially after care. I can see the carrier paying for trauma treatment then abandoning the family to their own devices to provide for rehab after that. Being the good liberals that they are (Malkin said so!) I can't imagine them letting these kids develop without intensive therapy for their injuries which
would leave them functioning below the capacity they will achieve with therapy.

Oh, jeez, it just occured to me why Republics like Ms. Ridenour and, of course, Our Dear Leader, might want to allow folks to grow up with untreated brain damage: they're more likely to vote
for Republics. D'oh!






talisman, same old
Again Talisman shows his compassion, by demanding that we fund another program expansion.

I wonder if he realizes that private charitable organizations actually exist? No, I expect he thinks the government does it better. That is a sad commentary.

I would like to do my impression of Talisman, demonstrating his great compassion...."Hey YOU...yea thats right YOU...that guy is hungry over there...Give him some Money!"

selmo
"it seems that only the people who have good health insurance make over 150k a year are against this program." Nope, I make well under half that, have a diabetic uninsured wife, and am against the EXPANSION.

As for the privacy crap, are you really suggesting that people should receive government aid without financial disclosure?

libphobic
Okay, your brain is in the freezer - go get it and thaw it out because you're not making sense (not surprisingly). How is an ad about SCHIP that features a boy with special healthcare needs hypocritical? That's what SCHIP is about as it would happen. Now if you want real hypocrisy go down and take another look at that yellow ribbon stuck to your bumper.

Besides, rightwingers do a lot of handwringing about how needy these kids are, and yet how many of you spoke out when the Fed bailed out Wall Street last month? Oh, THAT'S right - in wingnuttia-think, only the rich deserve welfare because THEY trickle their pennies down to the rest of us.

The mortality rate of life is 100%
The Constitution assures equality of opportunity, not of outcome.


That having been said, now that we've determined that government-paid (read: taxpayer-funded) health insurance and care is suddenly a new heretofor undiscovered "right", I want a refund of all the money I paid to insure and care for my kid when she was growing up.


That oughtta oput me in a brand new Porsche 911, maybe even a Turbo Carrera.

Are there no workhouses?????
Man the jaw dropping attacks against this family are just too horrible to answer in one sitting. Now you ignorant sheeple are swiftboating children who, through no fault of their own, suffered terrible injuries in an accident????? Have you all gone insane????? But in typical conservative sheeple fashion, it's always the victim's fault. What a shock--even middle class families are hurting and need some help! I bet all of these pundits have really great healthcare coverage so why do you morons listen to them.

Forget Schip--you sheeple are just plain cruel period. Hey, liberals pay taxes too and my money is going to pay for an occuption in Iraq I absolutely detest! How come no one is whining about the waste of their money in Iraq?! We come we have money to occupy Iraq without a murmer of protest but everyone howls about helping AMERICAN CHILDREN!

What next--are you going to take Tiny Tim's tax payer subsidized crutch and chop it up for kindling? Scrooge was a liberal wimp in comparision to today's evil conservatives. Are there no workhouses? But then again, conservatives would probably close down the workhouses too!!!!

RIGHT?
Can someone please point out in any of the founding fathers writings where they even referance heaalthcare. Seems like some want to call everything they need or desire. Here's a new one we all have a "right" to good nutrition to I think the Gov't should pay everybodies food bills.

Hum Bug S-CHIP is just another way of covering up the real intent "Control". I am 69 and on medicaree. For which I pare $146 dollars a month. My wife is 62 and totally disabled due to mental illness. She never knows what day it is or even the month. I have to manage her medications. She is also physically disabled and has limited walking ability. Well between us we earn unnder 29,000. She collects on my earnings. . Guess what there is NO I repeat NO health care program for her. I am not advocating for one either. But I get upset when some youg couple making 80,000 a year can get help

Privacy
This post is abhorrent, and most importantly, unconstitutional. Every citizen in this country has the right to privacy, whether they need help from the government or not.

And in case you're wondering whether you're one of those people get government help, do you need the government's help to keep roads intact so that you can drive to work? Do you need the government's help when someone has broken into your car and you want to press charges? When you're old and living on a lousy pension and you get cancer, will you need government help via Medicare? I guess then, according to Ms. Ridenour, she and any other jackass have the right to hide in the bushes outside your house, interview your neighbors, and generally make your life a living hell. Who knew? Where I grew up, people who hid in your shrubbery lying in wait for you were trespassers up to no good and were shot. But I guess if I lose my job and need to pay the rent until I find another one, I'll just have to submit. How utterly retarded.


to no bs artist
No bs artist: Wingnuts only believe in spending huge gobs of money for killing brown people and destroying countries, such as Iraq. The thought of spending money to help people makes them froth at the mouth, just as Jesus would do, I'm sure. Jesus was famously and "every man, woman and child for himself" kind of guy.

SCHIP, Graeme Frost, and the Bloggers
If the children's injuries were related to an auto accident, the auto insurance (which is mandatory in Maryland) should have picked up some of the tab. Most policies that I am aware of include medical care associated with accident claims. That said, I think the father is a parasite and deserves whatever opprobrium commenters on this site wish to dish out.

I'm no theologian, but...
Why do the liberals keep twisting Jesus' words and works? Show me the passage where He said that people should be forced to help others.

Making a story have legs
Although what Graehme Frost has gone through is not funny, the debate on this issue is somewhat amusing for what it reveals about the blindness of ideology.

Frost was chosen to give the speech because he is a child who likely would be dead if the SCHIP program did not exist and cover his family. Of course using a child to put a face to such issues is somewhat exploitive as when Bush surrounded himself with snowflake children to put limits on stem-cell research (even though discarded stem-cells are so plentiful that research does not actually limit the supply for implantation purposes).

Frost would naturally have been a very small one day story. After all who listens to the democrats weekly rebuttal, I certainly didn't hear of him after his speech.

But the right has oddly decided it is good politics to true to argue that it would have been better off if Graehme did not get the help he needs.

That is a tough sell to begin with, but the right has managed to make this into a much bigger story by ignoring a simple truth. If one is going to try to make the case that it would be better if a 12 year old boy had died because of his car accident, one should try to tell an honest story of the situation. And so with every attack, "the family isn't in need they own a fancy house" it has turned out that the family in fact has done just what is admirable, actually they bought a cheap house in a run down neighborhood and helped with the rejuvination of that neighborhood.

The result is that the right has transformed the Frosts into the story that keeps on giving for the left. Instead of a one day small story about the kind of family that SCHIP was designed to help, it has become a multiple day story about an admirable family that is precisely the kind has made the SCHIP program so popular.

I expect liberals have never been so fond of the right blogosphere as they are this week (while also being a bit repulsed by it).

wrong impression
I was on my way out of the house when I posted my last comment, and realize that it gives the wrong impression. Let me explain:

14All scoffs that Jesus was "famously and "every man, woman and child for himself" kind of guy."

No, Jesus told us to help others. He did not tell us to take money out of someone else's pocket and use it to help others.

Doodle Bean "blathers" about Christians talking about charity, then wanting not to fund government take-away programs.

That's true, Doodle Bean. I absolutely do not want another government-run program to take any more of my family's money. I do, however, believe in private charity. This week alone I volunteered 14 hours and donated a couple hundred dollars of my family's money. Why? Because Jesus said to help others. How much have you contributed to your community this week? This month? This year?

See, liberals believe that it makes them good people to help with MY money, while conservatives believe it makes them better person to help others with their own resources. Do you see the difference?

Right to Privacy
Amy;

your comment:

Do people on the dole have a reasonable expectation of privacy vis-à-vis their financial affairs? No.

is crap. Americans have a right to privacy. I am a retired veteran, receiving the monthly government pension that I earned through 22 years service of keeping dolts like yourself safe. This does not entitle you, or any other lunatic to take away my right to privacy.

So f&%k yourself.

Private Charities v. Government
Shiela, your volunteerism is admirable. But no charitable organization has the billions of dollars it will take to ensure that all American children have access to comprehensive health care. So if you are arguing that government should not play a role in subsidizing children's health care, you are arguing that millions of children should go without access to the health care they need, because there will always be a significant number of families who cannot afford health care for their children. Perhaps you feel that the reason so many children lack health insurance is due to the bad behavior of their parents. Even if this were true, why should innocent children suffer for the sins of their parents over which they have no control?

If the Frosts had not received SCHIP at the time of the accident, they would have received care at the emergency room despite being uninsured, been billed for the service (for the 5 months the kids were in the hospital, likely hundreds of thousands of dollars), been forced to spend down their assets by selling their home and business to qualify for Medicaid, and would likely have declared bankruptcy. Their care would have been covered by the government (payed for by "us") anyway. Only in this scenario, they would have been completely destitute, having lost everything in order to get their kids the care they needed.

Some conservatives have argued that, essentially, this family deserved to lose everything because they didn't make the right choices. Do conservatives really expect families to sell all of their assets, work multiple jobs away from their children and be forced into bankruptcy so that their kids can get access to basic and life saving medical care? This is why the public overwhelmingly supports expanding SCHIP to cover more kids from middle income families.

oil companies good, injured children bad
Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You give a tenth of your spices-mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.
Matthew 23:23


Hack job
M. Malkin ran quite a little show on this poor 12 year boy, and it was shameful. The boy is rich because he goes to a private school? No cares to check and see if he goes free on a scholarship, which he in fat does. No one care to point out that his rich house cost $55,000 in a once run down neighborhood. No wonder the republican party may well loose to the Clintons. I don't understand why anyone would go to the Malkins and Limbaughs when they are proven wrong all the time.

False Witness
I would like to see your proof that this Father and Mother live an unruly life, that they are not willing to work, that they live an undisciplined life, doing no work at all and act like busybodies.

I don't remember hearing THEY were nosing around in anybodies business.


It revolts me.
There is no incentive for hard work and sacrifice to be sure your children have a better life in the liberal agenda.

Dear Gid, where did the Kennedy Democrats go?




TAFT
Gee! If people are so evil and greedy that they won't cough up money to help children who need it, why on earth would those greedy pigs give away tuition to a private school when a perfectly good socialized educational plan is available?

Yet they do.

You're making our point. Help is there for people who look for it.


This just grates on me!
My husband closed up his small business and took a corporate job for health insurance reasons.

Why in the world should I pay for the tragedy of the Frost family? We gave up a lifestyle in order to be responsible.

My house isn't worth near what the Frost's is, and I don't care what they paid for it. We both drive 10+ year old cars, they have shiny new transportation in their driveway.

Why didn't they choose to be responsible? Why would she accept a jpob that didn't offer insurance? Why doesn't he get a real job, like we did?

And why shouldn't they have to live with the consequences of their decisions, like we do?

PM
Are you asking if a father has a responsibility to his children and society to sell an asset (in this case a vintage automobile) in order to raise funds to support his own children before asking me to empty my wallet for their care? Yes!

Are you asking me if I expect a parent to work extra hours or get a second job to provide for his or her own children before asking me to pay for their healthcare? Yes, yes!

People, young or old, do not have the right to take my money to buy their health insurance. Unfortunately, children throughout the millenia have paid the price for their parents' foolishness - from poor Paris Hilton to the poor Frost children. It can take different forms, but the suffering and ill consequences are still there. We cannot protect them all, even by force.

Misplaced Outrage
My goodness, where is your outrage at the oil company subsidies, military contractor ripoffs, the missing 8 billion dollars in Iraq?
These people have you right where they want you and are laughing all the way to the bank.

typical Leftist misdirection
Leftists, please stop with the straw man arguments and actually deal with the facts. The Frosts (voluntarily) were put up as an example of why the SCHIP expansion was needed and yet, they qualified for the current plan. When you put up an example you should expect people to research it. This is not being a "busybody" or “invading someone’s privacy” or “attacking the messenger”. They are attempting to make an informed decision based on the information that was put forward (The Frost’s financial situation) to decide if the SCHIP program should be expanded. Since the Frosts were covered by the current program, and their situation does not seem all that dire (to those of us who believe in self-reliance), using them as an argument to expand the program was poor. If anything, their situation shows exactly why the program should not be expanded.

If you ask me to look at your situation as an example, don’t scream “invasion of privacy” when I do.

HEY selmo, whatever happned to ...
separation of church and state? It thought you couldn't pass laws based on one's faith? Unless of course it supports you want government to do. Then, you'll throw people's Christian faith, which I think you probably don't share, right back in their faces in an attempt to shame them into doing what you want. THAT is a side note that is a problem with the Dem's here. Using a kid who was hurt in an awful accident to guilt and shame people into supporting a government program that is not Consitutional.

How about this: "SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOBUTIT. YOUR TYPE REEEAALLY MAKES ME PUKE."

Redtravelmaster
Thank you for your 22 years of service. I have a brother who has been in the navy for 21 years, and is planning to retire next year. Another brother has been in the air force now for over 15 years.

How does a pension based on your years of service to the country equate to being on the dole? I don't understand your hostility, since they are unrelated to one another. Your pension you have rightfully earned; being on the dole is having your hand out for that which you have not earned.

JMN, false witness...
HUH? Sure, people looking into the Frost's situation are already being demonized for looking for some facts. Now you want them to look even deeper. You guys ... (me shaking my head in disgust) are nothing if not pitiful.

Memo the the coservatards here
your LOSING THE DEBATE. Look at the numbers tards. YOUR LOSING THE DEBATE TARDS!YOUR LOSING THE DEBATE TARDS! YOUR LOSING THE DEBATE TARDS! YOUR LOSING THE DEBATE TARDS! YOUR LOSING THE DEBATE TARDS! YOUR LOSING THE DEBATE TARDS!
HELLO!! YOUR LOSING THE DEBATE TARDS!

Dmac
Whether or not we are losing the debate, at least we are trying to debate. Your posts makes you look like a 2nd-grader who hasn't yet learned that the word you are striving for is "you're." It is a contraction meaning "you are," as in You are losing the debate.

One Solution to Pay For It
Stop the war one month early. Done. "The cost of military operations in 2006 is $35 billion higher than what Congress had estimated a few months ago that the Defense Department would need this year." - LA Times

I wonder how many people on this board fully understand the problem, and the amount of money needed to resolve it in comparison to other auto-stamped programs. As mentioned by others, both sides of the aisle pay taxes, and not all of us are happy to be spending $100,000/minute on a war. How many billions are unaccounted for in this war? Find it, fine those responsible if necessary, and make better use of it.

Also, note that the family in question earns $45,000 per year, purchased their house for about $50,000 some time ago, and have 4 children. Yeah, they're living it big, eh? It would be more expensive for everyone and more dire to have them file bankruptcy.

Money spent by the government for war is the same green money that we can spend for anything else. The bleeding occurs near the major arteries.

nthemajority
This family has assets that can be sold to pay for their care. The mother of 4 can get either a second part-time job, or a full-time job that offers health care as a benefit. There is no reason for this family to declare bankruptcy; they have other options which don't involve stealing from me.

In addition, it has been written that the grandparents have significant financial resources. Aren't people supposed to look to their families first? Are the grandparents helping out with the medical expenses? I paid many bills for my in-laws for a decade before their deaths because they couldn't afford to pay the bills themselves. I wasn't always happy about it, but they were family and our responsibility - not yours!

Our founding fathers ......
..... were also against getting mixed up in foreign entanglements which they knew no good would come from! So what the hell are we doing occupying Iraq???? Talking about wasting the taxpayer's money!!!!

Here's the real skinny--CONSERVATIVES TO KIDS--DROP DEAD!

Frog and Burkaless
No,I was just pointing out that someone used a bible quote, to describe the Frost family. I wasn't asking them to investigate, just to not make things up.

Pity a : sympathetic sorrow for one suffering, distressed, or unhappy:

I am doing just fine Frog, save your pity for people that are suffering, distressed (parents with 2 brain damaged children) or unhappy.

No Burka For Me

We are small business owner and we purchase our own insurance. From our experience these policies are over priced and it is a fight just to get them to apply payments we made to doctors etc. to our deductable (5,000.00 per person). The premiums go up every year 100.00 to 120.00 per month and we have never collected one dime in 5 years. They also have low lifetime limits that from my experience with a son with a TBI they probably would have reached very quickly. After they reached their limit they would be uninsurable. My son's accident happened when he was 11, he is now 30 and can't get insurance.

These are facts, not somebody doing a google search and telling people the cost of insurance in their state.

Keep carrying their water, they love to laugh on the way to the bank.




selmo
You are so all wet I don't know where to begin
First of all, no one is forcing you to pay for Amy Ridenour's article or her health care. She takes responsibility for her own life, so no one has a right to demand disclosure from her.

Second, the great philanthropist that you quote, Jesus Christ, wanted charity and kindness to be VOLUNTARY. When it is coerced, it loses all meaning. No where did Jesus tell government to seize the incomes of people and redistribute the fruits of their labor according to government’s own discretion. That makes about as much sense as the Islamists holding a gun to someone's head and saying "Swear allegiance to Allah or die." It’s not true allegiance if you don’t have a choice, and it’s not charity if you don’t have a choice either!

Gather around the campfire sheeple ...
and let me tell you a little story about healthcare ok? I work in a hospital billing office and one part is dedicated to something very unpleasant called CREDIT AND COLLECTION. (That's bill collectors to y'all). Since you're all so noble about paying your own way without any help from Uncle Sam just remember that the Hospital is a business too (I'd like to eat and pay my bills thank you very much) and we want to get paid for helping you or your family get better. However, if you don't have any insurance, government or private, you're going to get a bill in the mail and like any other bill it has to be paid, right?! And if you don't pay it, you're going to get some unpleasant letters and phone calls from us to you demanding you cough up or else!!!! Then we turn you beat sheeple over to our legal department so we can then go to court and shear you dumb sheeple for all you're worth. Didn't survive the surgery? Aw, gee, that's too bad, but we still want our money anyhow and is no excuse for non-payment so we'll just go after your grieving family and whatever estate you may have left them. Quite frankly by the time we're done bleeding you dry you sheeple will be on your knees begging for some kind of government relief! All of a sudden socialized medicine or Hillarycare or some kind of universal health care is going to sound awfully good in comparison to having your wages garnished and having liens on your property. Get it now sheeple?! Health care ain't for wimps and beats so you'd better have enough to cover any potential health care disaster or ELSE!!!

M Sederoff
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," They replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is God's."


no bs artist
I agree that many will be on their knees begging for government relief. But it sounds like many posting here will proudly march to the homeless shelter.

Selmo
"it was the greatest liberal of all time, JESUS CHRIST, who said to take care of the sick , feeble, people in need, the homeless.
Jesus was conservative in my view. He preached that individuals should take of each other NOT gubbermints. Render unto Caesar what is Caesars. Render unto God what is Gods.

The entire subject is moot
The Frost children were covered under SCHIP as it already existed. They would still be covered under it if the Congress had merely re-authorized it without expanding it at all, or if Congress had been willing to accept the modest expansion of it that Bush proposed instead of trying to use it for purposes it was never intended to serve.

SCHIP was created in 1997 by the Republican Congress to close the gap between the poverty line and Medicaid. In other words, there were families with children who were below the poverty line but earned too much to qualify for free care under medicaid. SCHIP was created so the children of these families could have health care coverage without having their parents quit their jobs. In a way it was a co-partner to welfare reform, which the Republican Congress and Bob Dole had finally forced Clinton to sign.

Bush's proposal for a modest expansion of SCHIP was based on the original and legitimate purpose for SCHIP. The Democrat Congress' proposal was a blatant mutation of SCHIP passed for the abusive purpose of gaining control of an ever-larger portion of the health care industry.

As for Ridenour's question, whenever anyone becomes politically active and advocates for a cause their motivation is not only fair game, it is part of the public's obligation to perform "due diligence".

If we had an objective media this question wouldn't even come up.

And if you're going to let your 12-year-old son be used disingenuously by the Democrats for their political objectives you forfeit your right to cry "foul" when the rest of us ask you to provide your credentials.

Re Graeme Frost & Family
I do not have first-hand knowledge of this, but TV last night---I think it was either CNN or MSNBC---reported that the right wing has posted the Frost family's home address and telephone number on the Internet, inviting a blitz of harassment. Is someone here defending that? Michelle Malkin, who spits venom like a cobra, makes excuses for herself online today, saying that "anything is fair game", even attacking a child. She invites the public to make sport of her own child if she uses him/her to make a political point. But I wonder if she would welcome having her child's address and phone number posted on the Internet?

Another thing is that facts about the Frost family's economic situation appear to have been distorted by some on the right (Malkin and Limbaugh are named). Paul Krugman's column in today's New York Times says, for example, that the Frosts bought their house many years ago when its neighborhood was derelict, and that Mr Frost's business was dissolved in 1999. I do not know the facts of that situation. But I do know that taking the statements of vicious partisans who have the journalistic ethics of the National Enquirer and confusing them with Holy Writ is stupid.

Gotta love those strawmen
It's hugely amusing to see the usual moonbats squeal like stuck pigs because yet another bit of Commiecrat agitprop was shown up to be not what they claimed it was.

If the Frost family (specifically the parents) choose to allow their child to be used as a government handout poster boy, then they give up the right to not be looked at closely by those who wonder what their real motivations are.

(And you can bet your gluteus maximus that if the roles were reversed, and it was some family being put up by the Repubs to promote some plan of theirs, the same people whining about "violation of privacy" would be digging through their trash, etc, ad nauseam, to find something to beat them over the head with.)

As it is, we find out the Frosts own their own home, as well as a number of rental properties, three cars, kids are in private schools, etc. Both parents are college educated, although daddy doesn't work because he's an "artist". Even with all this, the kid still qualifies for this SCHIP program anyway, which makes their whining a moot point to start with.

Sorry, moonbats. Your Commiecrat pals chose poorly on whom to put up to make propaganda points.

lilly
Obviously, posting the address on the internet is not proper. Unfortunately, however, the information is available to anyone with enough of an interest to look it up.

You are incorrect about the father's business. He bought the warehouse in 1999 for approximately $160,000.

Auto Insurance ...
Graeme Frost was hurt in an automobile accident. The government should give the poor car insurance, too.

Fifty years fighting communism and NOW we decide it is better red than dead.

some ignoramus said
"Do conservatives really expect families to sell all of their assets, work multiple jobs away from their children and be forced into bankruptcy so that their kids can get access to basic and life saving medical care? "

Of course. I expect families to get educated and skilled, make prudent choices and take care of their own. Sometimes the responsible have to sell their assets. Sometimes they have to go back to school. Sometimes they have to start over. Sometimes they have to work two jobs. (OH!! the HUMANITY!!!)

Instead, at least half of this country's population believes it is better to steal from their neighbors and their children's future to avoid the consequences of their irresponsible stupidity.

What this means (for the deliberately stupid) is that losers make everyone else pay for their behavior.

Anybody here encourage their children to act irresponsibly because somebody else will always pick up after them?

Grow up, lilly
lilly writes: "I do not have first-hand knowledge of this..." Then go post in the gossip columns.

lilly writes: "Is someone here defending that? (posting families address)" Are you accusing someone here of doing that?

lilly writes: "Michelle Malkin... saying that 'anything is fair game', even attacking a child." I missed the part where Michelle attacked the child: could you point it out, please?

lilly writes: "I do not know the facts of that situation" That won't stop her from commenting, of course.

Bottom line
The Frost family (who are considerably more well-to-do than my family) didn't need the EXPANSION that caused the veto, so they're a BS example.

bottom line
middle class and low income people need extra help. gas prices are up 50% in 6 years, food costs are up 21% in 6 years, health care costs are up 30%, and wages are stagnant.
this was a true bi partisan bill with almost half of the republican senators voting for it. before the veto threat, president bush praised the schip program.
" do people on the dole have a reasonable right to privacy" all americans have the right of privacy. period.
190 billion for bombs for iraq. no extra money for american childrens health care.
the right attacking this family, the 9/11 widows, al gore, the multiple retired generals and combat vets who speak out against the war, cindy sheehan, any one who has a differing view of our C-student of a president ...........you are all insane on the right. reason has no place in your thoughts. by the way the frosts have 4 kids. michelle malkin and senator mitch mcdick spread the false talking points you all spew.

Selmo Prefers Institutionalized Beggars
Selmo says, "190 billion for bombs for iraq. no extra money for american childrens health care."

That is correct. It is the Governments mission to Provide security and Promote welfare, not the other way around. Thus, no money for health care.

Since there is no money for health care, gas, housing, cars, food or whatever, I suggest you spend more time trying to find ways to make them all affordable and acheivable instead of turning the poor into a bunch of beggars. Of course, Liberals love beggars, it makes them feel needed and superior and guarantees a beggar class for their pleasure and entertainment.

Thank you Ms. Ridenour
for arguing againstthe S-CHIP proposal on its merits. Your defense of bloggers who questioned the Frosts, however, is misguided. Nobody is suggesting that questions should not be asked. What people were upset about is the fact that Malkin and many others made up the answers to those questions out of whole cloth.
I hope conservatives continue to argue against programs like this one intended to alleviate the strains on lower and middle income families. The american people will see whose side your really on, even if many of you cannot.
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