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Monday, April 07, 2008
Amanda Carpenter :: Townhall.com Columnist
Democrats Tie War to Bad Economy
by Amanda Carpenter
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Democrats are tying Iraq war spending to a flagging U.S. economy in hopes of securing more tax dollars for domestic agenda items in the run-up to scheduled testimony from senior Iraq officials.

“We cannot lose sight of the Iraq war’s impact on America’s economy,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D.-Calif.) told reporters last week.

She said the war was causing “economic pain” at home and cited rising costs of healthcare, education, gasoline and groceries. “Consumer prices for staples such as milk, bread and eggs rose by the largest amount in 17 years,” Pelosi said.

Democratic Caucus Chairman Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.), the number 4 Democrat in the House, suggested Iraqis were receiving better domestic service at the U.S. taxpayers’ expense than Americans living in the U.S.

“Look at what President Bush has done,” Emanuel said alongside Pelosi on April 3. “This is the president of the United States that, while he has expanded hospitals in Iraq -- 20 hospitals in Iraq, 80 new clinics -- he's vetoed a children's health care bill for 10 million children, and his own budget proposes $178 billion cuts in Medicare and Medicaid. While we are building 6,700 schools in Iraq and training 60,000 teachers in Iraq, the president's budget here at home cuts funding for education and teacher training programs and reading programs, and in fact does not fully fund the Leave No Child Behind program.”

Army General David H. Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker will testify before House and Senate Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committees Tuesday and Wednesday. After their testimony concludes, the House will take up a supplemental war spending bill to continue funding the war, which the Democrats may be willing to hold up in order to tack on additional domestic spending items.

House Majority Leader Rep. Steny Hoyer (D.-Conn.) told House Republican Whip Rep. Roy Blunt in an exchange on the House floor that Democrats were exploring ways to load up the war bill.

“There are obviously needs in addition to Iraq that are being discussed and I would tell my friend that those discussions are ongoing,” Hoyer said to Blunt.

Hoyer explained: “A decision on what may or may not be added in addition to the supplemental that may be necessary for Iraq, there may be other things. That decision has not been made at this point in time. But I do want to let the gentleman know that that is under discussion. As the gentleman will recall, last year when be-- when we passed the supplemental, there were domestic priorities that were also addressed, in particular, Katrina, as the gentleman will recall, and some other members as well. That's under discussion.”

The House Appropriations Committee plans to vote on the war supplemental on April 16.

Senate Republican Whip Sen. Jon Kyl (R.-Ariz.) senses Senate Democrats will pursue similar measures in his chamber.

“I really resent it,” he said in a conference call Monday. “I use that word purposefully. In a sense, it’s blackmail against our troops as a hostage to the Democrats’ desire to spend more money on their favorite projects.”

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About The Author
Amanda Carpenter is the author of “The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy's Dossier on Hillary Clinton,” published in October 2006.
 
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Pelosi is a menace
To say the war has adversely affected the cost of education, groceries, and insurance is absurd and irresponsible. The rising cost of all these items are directly related to Federal Gov't meddling in things that they shouldn't be meddling in.

What is she talking about?

Healthcare? Gov't mandates do a fine job in driving costs.

Education? The more the Feds dump into the student loan fund, the higher the cost of tuition goes up. Presidents, Provosts, and Chancellors universally acknowlege this.

Groceries? Anyone ever hear of ethanol and the subsidies attached to it? I don't have to say any more.

I'll give 'em gasoline to an extent due to some uncertainty in the Middle East.

There is plenty of blame to go around as well. Dems, Repubs, there all trying to buy votes and in the meantime are doing a fine job in screwing things up.

Relying on Ignorance
Somehow the war supplemental which runs about $100B breaks the bank on a $3T budget. I know that this is their new spiel and it is ridiculous. If they would do real oversight and weed out waste, fraud, and outdated programs instead of redoing stories the press has mined fully, they would find savings to use to fund their pet projects.
btw, the much ballyhooed rise in groceries was $47 per family last year. I am on Social Security, but I don't need help from Washington to handle that $4/mo. Thanks.

Ignorance Indeed
Somehow I cannot find anything that says otherwise: the economy is hurting, and the war is not helping. Try a Google search with "us economy war iraq" and see what you get. See what our own government is saying, even with all of Bush's attempts to keep bad reports from getting to the public.

I have yet to find a researched paper or government document that tells a tale of anything other than economic downturn from this war. Or do you really want to look elsewhere for the universally accepted economic problems?

"The U.S. Department of Agriculture reports that grocery costs for the average family rose 4.8 percent in 2007." "The worst case of food inflation in nearly 20 years has more Americans giving up restaurant meals to eat at home." "Nationwide, a family of four on a moderate-cost shopping plan now spends an average of $904 each month for groceries, an $80 increase from two years ago, according to the USDA"

$960 / year, $47 / year. Ahh, what's the difference. Pass the Cheetos and turn up Fox News. Don't listen to 80% of the US public and all of the reports coming from the US Gov't, they obviously don't have the facts that TH is hiding.

Can you believe those darn Democrats? Spewing facts again just to look smart.

inthemajority
please tie grocery costs to the war, as opposed to bad legislation including subsidies on ethanol that have driven up the price of corn which has had a significant ripple effect on other commodities including beef, chicken, soy, and wheat.

tie the cost of education to the war as opposed to bad legislation that encourages colleges and universities to raise the cost of tuition thanks to a student loan program that telegraphs how much colleges and universities can get away with charging.

Iraq War Affecting Economic Downturn

Poll:Iraq War Affecting Economic Downturn, Say 9 In 10


WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/poll-iraq-war-affe cting-economic-downturn-say-9-in-10

Why????
Why don't the demorats mention the cost of the illegal alien social services, education, medication, nutrition, encarceration, etc. to the massive strain on the economy?

General Petraeus is doing all he can and so are our troops. Support them always..

War And The Economy
The congress has been in Democrat control for a year and one half.They promised to make changes.They would end the war.They promised wonders.

What has happened? The economy continues to get worse.Much worse since they got control.They are making it worse with all the freebies.

Congress has an even lower popularity rating than the hated GW Bush.Name one constructive thing they have done.

If they wanted to end the war,they could.They have used that mantra for five years to beat Bush over the head..Bring the soldiers home.What is the hold-up?

All this just shows..they are no better at running the country than Republicans.They are just better at bit@hing and moaning.

Pelosi has a point
Of course, someone like Carpenter hasn't got clue-one as to economics in the first place. We pay for our empire with massive borrowing and printing of money, which dilutes the value of the dollar, which makes everything more expensive.

Please, TH columnists: learn SOMETHING about economics!

Gee, you think?
Let's see...

We are currently flushing $341.1 million dollars EVERY DAY down the toilet of Iraq.

You think maybe -- just maybe?! -- it's effecting our economy?!

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

Or, about $520 Billion total....

http://zfacts.com/p/447.html

Robert
I hesitate to seem to take you seriously.You are the 'hoot'.

You didn't say why congress has done nothing constructive since they won the election.You have an answer to everything else.Answer that.

Why haven't they ended the war as promised?Surely the 'man who knows all' can answer that.


Rowly on Congress
They haven't voted to stop funding the war because they haven't had a large enough majority. But it really doesn't. Regardless of who wins the WH, its' occupant will be forced to continue a significant investment in Iraq for years to come. Events in Basra reveal how far the ISF has to go.

bryce
I was,in a round-about way trying to answer another poster without naming him.He hates the president and blames him for everything that has happened in the last 7+ years.

I was just trying to say the war will be with us until their government is stable.No matter who is president or in congress.

I had some other posts on Rich Lowery's column that explains where I was coming from.

Robert
You know I knew the answers already.I wanted to see you answer them. You did good. I am so proud of you. This is the most lucid of all your posts. You answered almost ALL correctly.You get a gold star.

Now say 'goodnight,Robert'....goodnight, Robert.


Jobs for "the poor"
Maybe some of "the poor" should get their lazy arses off the sofa and go get a job in a defense plant. Just look at the war as an employer of last resort for the terminally unemployed...

The source of the hemorrhage...
--
...isn't spending in the Sandbox and elsewhere, fighting the Islamic Jihadis' War Against Civilization (this whole "War on Terror" schtick is totally F.O.S.) but rather the growth in entitlement spending associated with social welfare programs beloved of both the Democrat and Republican Parties.

Think of a patient with a severed dorsalis pedis artery spurting away in a lacerated foot. Now look a bit further up the body and on the opposite side you'll see a completely transected femoral artery at the groin, hosing out the red stuff.

Now, which one d'you think is going to bleed this patient to death?

The war in Iraq (and spending elsewhere in the effort to contain and/or defuse the ticking time bomb that Islam has always been) is a little squirter down in the distalmost part of the extremity.

It's that gusher high on the thigh that's the certain sure cause of all economic problems in this malignantly government-raddled nation of ours.

But the "Liberals" don't want to talk about entitlement spending.

Without "Government as Santa Claus" for all their identity-politick'd special interest groups, what the puck do they have as the basis for their platform?

Or even an excuse to go on breathing?



----------------
"The state is the great fiction by which everybody seeks to live at the expense of everybody else."

-- Frédéric Bastiat

Rowly
On our continued presence we absolutely agree. We have an obligation to the Iraqi people.

What ended the Great Depression?
Was it the massive government projects during the 30's? Nope, those projects helped people with jobs, but everyone was still poor. America was in the Depression until WWII spending got them out of it.

"Of course, someone like Carpenter hasn't got clue-one as to economics in the first place. We pay for our empire with massive borrowing and printing of money, which dilutes the value of the dollar, which makes everything more expensive.

Please, TH columnists: learn SOMETHING about economics!"

Inflation and the falling dollar happens mostly when the FEDERAL RESERVE screws with monetary policy. Bush doesn't set monetary policy. . . and it doesn't have anything to do with war spending.

Since when is it bad to have our government pay American contractors? Wait a minute, you mean that money being spent is going back into OUR economy?

You mean you aren't going to take another opportunity to point out that the war was just to benefit No Bid Cronies of the White House? What exactly are your qualifications on the economy sir or ma'am?

Amanda is dead right and you are just spouting off at the mouth. Pelosi doesn't know anything about how the war spending has affected the economy. YOU just said here it adds to the deficit. So how is adding to the deficit taking ANY money out of the CURRENT economy. The falling dollar helps exports like American cars.

I bet you think that Medicare being broke by 2019 means that we should expand Medicare to cover everyone. Medicare is 500 Billion Dollars a year. Isn't that a better use of dollars according to you? Let the government waste it on entitlement programs it can't afford. This figure doesn't include the additional 12 - 20 million people that they want to give benefits to by granting them citizenship.

War spending is not affecting this economy in a negative way.

OH, SJDoc
says that $100 Billion a day doesn't mean a thing.

Really?

That's funny, I thought conservatives were supposed to be fiscally conservative. Well, if $100 billion a day doesn't mean a thing, then why weren't we already spending that money on our own country. I see, rescuing the fair maiden in distress, the Iraq people, so pure, so good at heart are much more important than our own people are a much higher cause. Wait until they start flooding this country escaping the Shiite terror we caused by removing the stabilizing force.

But you can't blame the cons, becuase they are too stooopid to have forseen, what every liberal (who wasn't in a position to be intimidated by idiot patriotism and the influence of advertising and bribery - in other words, the politicians who were forced by war fever to vote in favor of the illegal war) KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING --- that there was no possible way to win a war of occupation.

I love it, now it's nothing to waste $100 off-budget, per day. Just nothing, a trifle for another overspending REPUBLICAN deficit administration.

Bryce says
We have an obligation to the Iraqi people.

Is that a greater obligation than we have to our own people in this country. You lying hypocrites.

What obligation ? Because we invaded their country and destroyed it? People should be hanging by their necks for that. But that is not an obligation.

ex-Wyomingite
Good one: "Where's the oil?" And you consider yourself intelligent enough to open you dung-hole?

Do you think Dick Cheney has not benefited?

Do you not understand that Dick Cheney is now a member in full standing in OPEC? He is now therefore interested in LOWERING oil production levels so that prices GO UP. Duh. And what have prices done? (Tricky question, you might have to think about that one.)

But, he got the oil. Don't worry about that.

How can you cons look at yourselves in the mirror with the damage your stupidity has caused everyone staring back at you?

trughes - You can bleed to death...
--
...from a severed dorsalis pedis artery, sure. Ask anybody who's ever had a patient with hemophilia, or one on antiplatelet or anticoagulant therapy.

What I'd said is that the "bleed" induced by the War Against the Wogs is trivial compared to the exsanguination being inflicted by the politicians buying votes with "charitable" entitlement programs.

Savvy "bread and circuses," putzie?

But says trughes:

"That's funny, I thought conservatives were supposed to be fiscally conservative. Well, if $100 billion a day doesn't mean a thing, then why weren't we already spending that money on our own country."


Surely, you've mistaken Republicans for conservatives.

They're not. They never have been. Hell, they gave us the first "Peactime Billion-Dollar Congress" (the 51st), in which they exacerbated the Bland-Allison Act by passing the Sherman Silver Purchase Act, accellerating the issue of "greenback" fiat currency while dictating silver coinage at an exchange rate with gold that deliberately overvalued silver (mining and refining operations had resulted in greatly increased silver production, and a fall in the real - not statutory, but real spot market - price of silver such that speculators effectively looted the U.S. Treasury's gold reserves by flooding it with cheap silver presented for Congress-mandated purchase).

The Republican policies were deliberately inflationary, and spending in that Congress was rife with "entitlement" programs for selected GOP constituencies.

It led to the Silver Panic, the most horrendous depression in the entire 19th Century history of these United States.

And it was all Republican.

-- More --

trughes - Just because "Liberals" suck..
--
...the proverbial dead dog's gangrenous pud doesn't mean that the Republicans are some sort of prize-winning entry in the Eukanuba National Championship.

They were screwing the proverbial pooch long before they shuffled off the "Whig" monicker, and they continue to leave a trail of whimpering, spraddle-legged puppies everywhere they go.

Its just that since 1896, the Democrats have gone over into full flaming "populist" mode.

Or are they disguising their rank, arrogant, lawless socialist bastardliness as "progressive" or "Liberal" this week?

The Republicans have always been the Stupid Party.

The Democrats simply turned themselves into the Evil Party.

Stupid is bad. Evil is worse. You want to argue about that?

Hm, maybe so. After all, you *did* say:

"...why weren't we already spending that [$100 billion a day expended on whacking the towel-heads] on our own country..."

...as if spending money "on our own country" were either (a) something that the government exists to do, or (b) something that would actually benefit the American national economy.

Which means you're both a political idiot (and want "Government as Santa Claus") and an economic illiterate (who doesn't recognize that government spending in that economy does potentially and not uncommonly even more devastating damage to the private - i.e., *productive* - sector of society than does government extortion at gunpoint).

If you don't like word "extortion," feel free to substitute "taxation."

Same thing.

-- Want more? --

SJ Doc -- Want more? --
Pour it on--I'm enjoying this (and agreeing, too)!

War?
The money spent on the war in a tear in a salty sea. I am more concerned about the 3,000,000,000,000 being spent than the 3.3% of that total being spent on the war. If anything, more should be spent on the war, to end the thing as quickly as possible; that would be cheaper in the long run.

The government is too big and unwieldy. Each American's share (ca. $31,000 per person, or about $129,000 per average sized family)of the debt is more than many of them will this year. Another $10,000 per person ($41,000 per average sized family) to cover the budget for the year. Add consumer debt to the total, the house of cards proves to be even bigger.

Who is paying for this behemoth, this financial leviathan? The economy must be a lot better than the Liberals would like us to believe, if it can support this kind of debt spending. How long can it last?

War
stimulates the economy. Im sure you libs knew that though.

Half of you come into any article on TH already knowing your going to choose the anti Rep/Conservative/Christian point of view (cough knight cough), not matter what it is. Life must get boring when its so predictable.

Just a thought
I bet we spend more for illegal immigrants and welfare programs in one year than for every year of this war combined. Good luck measuring how far the effects of illegal immigrants stretch...

Of course those are liberal causes, anyone who attacks them is an unsympathetic jerk.

There is a better correlation
There is a better correlation to a bad economy than the war. The economy is inversely correlated to the number of Democrats in Congress. Look at 1991-1993; the Democrats had a lock on the House of Representatives and the country was in recession, not a little slowdown like is going on now. Look at 2000; the Senate was 50/50, and Tom Daschle was king in the Senate. Look at 2006 and later; Pelosi and Reid are running the Congressional show.

But what is really interesting is that those who think now is a bad economy don't remember Jimmy Carter. That fool, along with the Democrat enablers in Congress, gave us unemployment double to triple what it is today, high fuel prices (inflation-adjusted to be about the same costs as today), and my first mortgage at 16-1/2 percent. And the Democrats think they are good for the economy?

Robert how old are you?
You comment on the bad economy of the last six years; you cannot remember the economic downturn of 2000 thanks to the excesses of the CLINTON administration which took the stock market down and unemployment headed up, the attack in 2001 which took the stock market down even further and unemployment.

Your contributions and intellect say that you are about 14 and educated to fourth-grade level.

Read my prior post--Dems and Libs caused the bad economy.

Political waste of funds
I do not hear any comments about the raises our negative politicians have taken, time off they have taken, expenses they have spent on campaigning for seven years, the $38,000.00 dollars per person for security while they campaign. Explain some of this to us your employers Nancy Polosi....I think whatever the cost for our military to keep us safe is well worth every cent....I also think your negativity is endangering our troops, our country and prolonging their mission.....You and yours are the biggest cheerleaders for the terrorists and a much bigger challenge than Iraq for our troops.....I also heard this week Senator John McCain has not requested any security, Thank you Senator for saving us money at a time of need, and also Thank you for your service.....God Bless our troops, theirs in charge, and God Bless America.

Political waste of funds.
I forgot to mention, the $38,000.00 for security was per person, per day.....Thank you Hillary, and Obama, not to mention your overpaid salary in the Senate.

The title is so apt
People:
Everyone should tie the current conflicts to the bad economy. All military spending consumes resources, and doesn't produce a thing. In 2003 the Heritage Foundation I believe, did a study that if the war lasted longer than 4 years it would cause the US to go into a hard recession.
That is what has happened and it should surprise no one. The only way out of this long term mess is to cut spending for all items. That includes military spending. Economics will work to send us the resources we desire if we pay for them.

Liberal Trolls
Most of the people who post on these conservative threads,do so to toss ideas back and forth.Sometimes,just for the fun of it.

There are about a half-dozen trolls who post, also.They probably say they are 'slumming'.They are regulars who answer a post,just to put in their two-cents worth.

Nobody invites them,they just show up for sheer contrariness.If you are smart,you will ignore them.You cannot win an argument with them,because they are not sincere in their arguments.

All they care about is getting someone to respond.Then they start attacking everything you say.They will contradict you.Even if it is half-truths or outright lies.

It is a waste of time to engage them.They are dishonest and their posts are mostly to ridicule.I will not be tempted by either of them again.If you are smart,you will avoid them,also.

Let them stay on kos and huff-puff, with the rest of the lefties.


Military Spending
We would not have an Economy or much of anything else if we did not have our military..... Some of the Brave military, MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER, GRANDFATHER, UNCLES, BROTHERS, HUSBAND, AND NOW MY GRANDSON, have made this country safe and free so you could speak about this so called mess. Be thankful to them you do not live in a third world country.....Our only cost is money, the military are sacrificing their lives, and time from their families. Also remember this is a voluntared sacrifice.

World War II
World War II was much more expensive than the occupation of Iraq.

And yet, it ended the Great Depression.

ELONG

.....One of the disadvantages of longevity is that you have seen it all ...over and over again until you accept the inevitabily that nothing is ever going to really change ...it is like being stuck in the movie Ground Hog Day ....

.....For as long as I can remember the standard solution for failing schools has been smaller class size, more money and higher pay for teachers ...it doesn't work ...nothing improves and yet it is tried over and over again ...the one constant in all this is the universal ignorance of the voters who get duped by the politicians by the same old tired lies and misreprestations .....as Yogi said, "it's deja vu all over again" .....COLOSSUS

IS SEEMS OBVIOUS TO ME

.....And I know that Jeremiah and Barak would agree with me, the reason the economy is in the tank is "White Racism" ...with whitey to kick around as the universal scapegoat we don't need explanations ...it just is ...when your pop corn doesn't pop? ...yep! you guessed it ..."White Racism" .....COLOSSUS


SJ Doc
You are wrong. At times the government does "spend money" on our country. You say no, well, you're wrong. Police protection. Court System. Public transportation. Hospitals all used to be publically owned (oh, until the highly successful privitization era.)

What Roosefelt did was build infrastructure that we are still using today. Who build the Hoover dam (that big waste of time, I suppose, you'd say.) ??? Would a private company have done that? The answer is no.

If you don't answer me and tell me you are wrong about the money spent on the Hoover dam, your are both a coward and a liar.

Right now this country has both Socialized medicine and Single payer and they both work better than privatized rip-off. They are called respectively, the Veterans administration and Medicare. By the way, have you availed yourself of either of those systems? If you have, consider yourself a commie, by the standards of most of the posters here.

Who's going to build a maglev, like the chinese and the germans are building? Do ya think its going to be a private company, cutting corners so the execs make their numbers. No.

That's what we should be spending our money on: technology and infrastructure that will pay benefits in the future. Investments. Not huge rip-offs, like the war machine.


Illegals cost MUCH more
One other point that seems to always get buried. You know, that dirty little secret Congress just won't deal with! Illegal Immigration costs $284 Billion annually. Why isn't Congress targeting that cash cow?

Note!
Democrats voted for the war and for appropriation bills.

Where did this new Idea come from?
Did Fox news do a story on illegal immigration?

What would it cost, exactly, if the entire industries of Agriculture and services, either ground to a halt, or had to pay $5.00 MORE per hour to convince city dwellers to come on out to the country, migrate from field to field (or stay in nice hotels, while they did their own bed sheets, take your pick.)

Do you people realize that there is actually an economic incentive to hire people that work their a**es off and don't demand much in return?

Has Fox/Pravda News thought of that?

If it weren't making a lot of money for a lot of people it wouldn't be happening. Just tell me would you be willing to pay $5.00 for an apple.

What do you think that would cost?

And THAT'S NOT WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, ANYWAY!!!! This article is talking about the cost of the war. (even though, they are related, because the military is offering citizenship in exchange for military service. That's why you see so many Hispanic names among the slaughtered.

You cons always try to deflect the argument.

And you are cowardly and run away when you beliefs are challenged with facts.

How much is too much ?
The problem is not that we are spending millions in Iraq. The problem is that money is not available to shore up the failing social domestic programs.

If you think this economy is bad imagine that a few years ago the tax rates that were reduced would still be at the pre-Bush levels and probably higher if left to the Democrats. You would have even less money in your pocket then you now have.

Congress needs more money for earmarks in order to buy votes and pay off campaign contributors.

Sooner or later the Democrats, a.k.a. liberals, will be back in power. It is the normal cycle of politics. When that happens do you think that your taxes will go up or down. If you believe the campaign sound bites it will only be the rich who will pay more taxes. Has anyone ever been hired by a poor person ?

How much money should a person be allowed to keep? What percentage of their income should a person be required to pay in taxes? If salaries for CEOs are obscene then tell me what would not be obscene?

Has anyone ever done a study of the net worth of people who enter Congress on a year by year basis?

Tibby


trughes - Malignant government spending
--
Yep; trughes is an economic ignoramus. He says:

"At times the government does "spend money" on our country. You say no, well, you're wrong. Police protection. Court System. Public transportation. Hospitals all used to be publically owned (oh, until the highly successful privitization era.)"


Look, putzie, I didn't say that the government *DOESN'T* spend money (nominally) "on our own country."

What I said was that such spending (a) is not something that the U.S. government exists to do, and (b) is not something that could actually benefit the American national economy.

From the moment the Whigs vomited up the pork-barrel "American System" of Henry Clay (vampiring money from taxpayers and shoveling it into the pockets of politically connected businessmen), government spending has had a distorting and destructive effect on the American economy. It works like so:

Politicians and/or bureaucrats decide that the "emergency" (there's always an "emergency") requires that money stolen by fraud or force from the productive (i.e., "private") sector of America be used to secure some "public good."

Bridges or bombers or battleships; "Police protection" or a "Court System," "Public transportation" or "Hospitals," whatever.

Some sort of excuse to justify the politicians' fuddy-duddy jobs (don'tcha just love *Blazing Saddles*?).

-- More --

trughes - Spending sword cuts 2 ways
-- More --

Now, whether that government spending is allocated with complete honesty (*CHOKE!* Sputter! Snigger! Guffaw! Like that's ever gonna happen!) or steered into the paws of "pay-to-play" politically connected businesses, the effect of this spending is fundamentally twofold:

(1) It draws materiel and manpower from the American economy, increasing the scarcity (and therefore the cost) of such in all private sector operations without immediately deliverable marginal profits in excess of government's ability to bid up the prices of those goods and services diverted to whatever-the-puck government is spending upon.

In other words, ignoramus, because government is bleeding the whole friggin' productive sector of the U.S. economy, it can pay prices for everything useful in that economy *WAY* to hellangone above the prices that any actor in that economy could possibly afford. This serves to starve productive private enterprises - starting with the most marginal - of the resources they need to function, and thereby incrementally destroys the aggregate productivity of that economy.

Kinda like a cancer.

(2) The government "...spending that money on our own country" (as trughes advocates) creates an expectation that said government will *CONTINUE* spending money in the ways thus established.

For "Police protection" or a "Court System," "Public transportation" or "Hospitals," et-interminable-cetera.

This causes the establishment and growth of issue-oriented "special interest groups" which develop in response to government's highly artificial (but nonetheless tangible and devastatingly effective) demand for goods and services.

-- More --



trughes - Cancerous gov't spending
-- More --

Again, the analogy of the cancer is apt. The growth of almost all malignant solid tumors is accompanied by the proliferation of (admittedly chaotic and poorly functional) stromal and vascular tissues. When you excise (cut out) such a cancer, the blood supply evoked by the really big ones can be so extensive that failure to maintain hemostasis can see the patient bleeding to death, and even with good control of the hemorrhage, the blood lost within the tumor's big, screwed-up vascular bed can cause the patient to develop hypovolemic shock.

So, too, with government spending.

Whole industries rise up to feed upon government spending. People come from hundreds of miles away to work on these government projects. Some train for years, acquiring special skills that are relatively worthless except in these government-funded "emergency" programs.

Because there's no real economic demand for any of these programs (and by "demand" in the economic sense is meant the aggregate end-consumer decision to spend his money, under his own control and upon his own decision, to secure for himself *these* goods and/or *these* services to the exclusion of achieving other ends), what this government "...spending that money on our own country" achieves is nothing more than an unsustainable elaborate house-of-cards *DEATHTRAP* for the hopes and lives of hundreds, even thousands of Americans.

The government "...spending that money on our own country" acts to create what is known in economics as "malinvestment."

And all malinvestment gets liquidated eventually.

As Talleyrand once said:

"You can do anything with bayonets...except sit on them."

Government spending is the ultimate bayonet.

-- More --

trughes - Nonviable malinvestment
-- More --

But even worse than the failure of industries and the impoverishment of whole populations sprung up to feed upon government "...spending that money on our own country" is the development of politically active special interest groups organized and (Christ help us!) successful in lobbying for the continuation of such spending even when the putative need for that spending is completly gone and it is blatantly obvious that further spending (or action) in these areas is either utterly useless or manifestly destructive.

Jeez, just look at "public education."

Imbecilically, trughes cites the Boulder Canyon Project (the "Hoover dam") as an example of (federal) government spending, claiming that it was exemplary of "What Roosefelt did," revealing that he doesn't know dick about the history of the Black Canyon Dam, which was the result of long-term planning by the states participating in the Colorado River Project, facilitated and finalized by way of the 1922 Hoover Compact (which is why the dam was renamed in his honor).

When this thing was put together, Roosevelt was down with Guillain-Barré syndrome, achieving the permanent paralysis in which he was to live out the rest of his life.

Construction began in 1931 (once the participating states had put together the financing), while FDR was sucking up to Tammany Hall as governor of New York State.

At best, Roosevelt merely accelerated the building of the Hoover Dam for its propaganda value during Roosevelt's NRA-exacerbated phase of the Great Depression.


As further proof of his imbecility, trughes says:

"That's what we should be spending our money on: technology and infrastructure that will pay benefits in the future. Investments. Not huge rip-offs, like the war machine."

-- More! --




trughes - Ah, the ''knowledge problem''!
-- More --

There's the arrogance of socialism for you, folks. Says trughes:

"That's what we should be spending our money on: technology and infrastructure that will pay benefits in the future. Investments. Not huge rip-offs, like the war machine."


Which rests upon the *WONDERFULLY* imbecilic presumption that any government sphincter-in-office can have any glimmer of an idea what "Investments" really are.

In the mouth of a "Liberal," the word "investment" means "We're gonna rip you off until we've bled you to death, and then we're gonna spend your money like a horde of drunken sailors hitting the whorehouses in Olongapo City!"

Because government spending not only does not take into account any sort of constraining cost/benefit analysis (hell, it's an "emergency," isn't it?) but also acts directly and indirectly to distort the signals of market pricing, there is no way that an officer of government (elected or appointed) can stumble over the potential value of "Investments" except by blind chance.

To the politically-minded, "demand" is not demand as is defined by the principles of econmics but is instead synonymous with "politically expedient."

And political expedience is *WORSE* than blind chance when it comes to making a decision about whether an investment is viable.

Even an imbecile (still listing, trughes?) should be able to understand that private sector investments foreclosed by such diversions of capital, materiel, and manpower - real investments that would certainly have produced greater material advantage for more people *AND* turned profits capable of funding further investments, which government "Investments" *NEVER DO* - are genuine losses inflicted upon the American people by the arrogant idiots who advocate government "...spending that money on our own country."

-- 30 --








ThackerAgency = econ illiterate
WW2 spending didn't get us out of the depression, bucko. And the continued spending on the Grand War to Murder Muslims does contribute to the poor economy.

Please PLEASE PLEASE learn something about economics. Heck--read Hazlitt's One Lesson.

Solo
Have you read Bastiat's "That Which Is Seen And That Which Is Not"?

Read it.

Then you'll understand why your invocation of the Broken Window Fallacy (which you didn't even know you invoked) is a load of crap.

Learn. Economics.

Don't blame me because you're an economic illiterate, either. Not my fault. Not my problem.

Knight
Don't blame me because your opinions are cut and paste from your anti-Christian websites. How many times have you been caught plagiarizing? Your a walking fallacy.

I have a question
US Comptroller General David Walker recently announced that the Iraqis now have a budget surplus. No hard figures have been released but all experts agree it will be in the billions of dollars.

My question is obvious. If we are experiencing huge budget and the Iraqis are experiencing budget surpluses, and the point of this whole excercise is an independant Iraq, why are we still paying their bills?

Solo610 - Bastiat ''anti-Christian''?
--
Says Solo610:

"Don't blame me because your opinions are cut and paste from your anti-Christian websites."


Imbecile, have you ever read *anything* written by Frédéric Bastiat?

Migawd! The cement-headedness of the "social conservative."




----------
"We hold from God the gift which includes all others. This gift is life — physical, intellectual, and moral life.

"But life cannot maintain itself alone. The Creator of life has entrusted us with the responsibility of preserving, developing, and perfecting it. In order that we may accomplish this, He has provided us with a collection of marvelous faculties. And He has put us in the midst of a variety of natural resources. By the application of our faculties to these natural resources we convert them into products, and use them. This process is necessary in order that life may run its appointed course.

"Life, faculties, production — in other words, individuality, liberty, property — this is man. And in spite of the cunning of artful political leaders, these three gifts from God precede all human legislation, and are superior to it. Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place."

-- Frédéric Bastiat, *The Law*
(see: http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html)




And Solo shows his ignorance
You see what happens when you spout off about things which you haven't got a clue, Solo? You get pwnt hardcore.

Bastiat wasn't anti-christian, you tool. How about you actually do some research so you don't look like a total moron next time, ok?

And you'd best back your claim about me plagiarizing, or else you're a child molester. Remember that, bucko? Remember how I can make any wild accusation I want when you make wild accusations?

So try me, Solo. Watch how many wild accusations I make about you.

SJ and Knight
SJ

What knight and I are talking about goes way back, im not talking about Frédéric Bastiat. I know you got really excited about the chance to slam a conservative, sorry that didn't work out for you, jackass.

Knight

Bucko? Pwnt hardcore?
Thats rich. Knight thinks he pwned some noobs. Haha.
Leave the world of war craft language out, it makes us dismiss you as a total loser before we have finished reading whatever you just got through cut and pasting.

Solo610 - You're a conservative?
--
Whines Solo610:

"I know you got really excited about the chance to slam a conservative...."


Not at all. What kind of putative "conservative" knows precisely dick about Frédéric Bastiat?

Answer: not an American conservative (which is to say a "constitutionalist"). Bastiat was one of the first economists, and as a politician elected to the French National Assembly, he was one of the first and most eloquent opponents of socialism ever to encounter that peculiar malignancy.

Now, a "social conservative" - a religious conservative or "Christian conservative" - might be sufficiently illiterate to fail of such knowledge.

After all, the religious conservative's line of thought runs like so:

"If these [the contents of the Library at Alexandria] agree with the One Book, they are unnecessary. If they disagree, they are pernicious. In either case, therefore, let them be burned."

Of course, that's a quote from Caliph Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (640 AD), and his "One Book" was the Qu'uran.

But it works out to precisely the same purpose.

Ah, the odor of sanctity.

--

Nice try, Solo
But we were talking about Bastiat, so your attempt at deflection falls flat. So sorry--it won't work, jackass.

Now then, jackass: read Bastiat's work and then apologize for using the Broken Window Fallacy.

Jackass. Child molester.

SJ+Knight+Everyone else
SJ

You are clearly one of those who loves the sound of his own voice. Please, continue to impress yourself.

Knight

Deflection? I was merely pointing out your "leet" language skills. Whats wrong with that?

Everyone Else

For a few laughs you might try googling variations of Baawa. For those of you who don't know Baawa stands for Bad A$$ Atheist With Attitude. They are a tree house club who are all over conservative boards spewing the same trash knight here spews. They meet up on their board to congratulate each other on how they stuck it to some Christian out there, sometimes they meet up in World of Warcraft. Knight is a level 52 character. These guys are a real bunch of winners.


Nice try, Solo
No one's believing you.

Just admit that you were in way over your intellectual level. And stop trying to deflect the attention from that--everyone can see through it. It's a silly little game, kid. Stop playing it.

No one?
Im just putting the information out there son.

Way over my intellectual level?
I guess so, i can't possibly know everything THE WIKIPEDIA GRANDMASTER himself cuts and pastes to this site. Keep up the good work little one.

Solo610 - Gotta read aloud?
--
Says Solo610:

"You are clearly one of those who loves the sound of his own voice."


Jeez, kid, even my 7-year-old grandson can read silently. And you imagine that you're hearing *MY* voice when you mispronounce what I write?

If you find the substance of my off-the-cuff posts here disagreeable, then refute it.

If you find the directions to Bastiat useful or pleasing (and you really ought to), say "Thank you."

As for the atheist leanings you perceive, get over it. As long as your purposes are non-coercive (meaning no government support for *ANY RELIGION WHATSOEVER*) you've got nothing to worry about.

As Leonard Read used to say, "Anything That's Peaceful" (http://tinyurl.com/6e2c6o).




--
"Our time, as did Galileo’s, witnesses an enormous intolerance toward ideas which challenge the prevailing faith, that faith today being collectivism – world–wide. Americans during the past three or four decades have swung overwhelmingly toward the myths implicit in statism; but, more than this, they have become actually antagonistic to, and afraid of identification with, free market, private property, limited government principles. Indeed, such is the impact of the collectivistic myth, they shy away from any idea or person or institution which the political welfarists and planners choose to label as 'rightists.' I have labored full time in this controversy for more than thirty years and, having a good memory, these shifts are as clear to me as if they had occurred in the last few moments, or I’d just viewed a time–lapse movie of these events. Were I unaware that such actions and reactions are inevitable in the scheme of things – particularly when observing such behavior by businessmen as well as by teachers, clergymen, and labor officials – I would be unable to believe my eyes."

-- Leonard Reed

SJ
Actually i pictured you standing there reading out loud, with a smile of self satisfaction on your face.

I find your information about Bastiat useless, as in i do not care. I was never discussing him. This thing with knight goes way back, and is about things that you do not have a clue about. I can appreciate you trying to force your way into the discussion. Adults, however, know when they are and are not being spoken to.

Solo610 - Force? I'm initiating force?
--
Gripes Solo610:

"I can appreciate you trying to force your way into the discussion. Adults, however, know when they are and are not being spoken to.'


And people who post on open Web threads know that *ANYTHING* they post - at *ANY* time - is de facto an invitation for others to comment upon.

You want a private tete-a-tete, take it to e-mail.

Otherwise, suck it up and stop sniveling.


As for your finding of "...information about Bastiat useless," do you really want to get into the whole "pearls before swine" schtick?




--
"I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind — that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overborne by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking."

-- H.L. Mencken

Nice try, Solo
Everyone knows that you're a child molester.

Remember: you make a grand claim without backing about me, and I make one about you. Deal?

Knight

Remember: you make a grand claim without backing about me, and I make one about you. Deal?"

No. My claim is true, im not worried about what you say.

SJ
Let it go. I understand the bathroom wall nature of the Internet and discussion boards, please spare me your lectures.


"If there were no God, there would be no atheists." - Where All Roads Lead, 1922

G.K. Chesterton


"A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere -- 'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous." – C.S. Lewis


Solo610 - Humorless squid, ain'tcha?
--
I trotted off in search of counterquotes from Big Name Atheists and - remembering George H. Smith - Googled his name.

After I got done viewing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h81tGuWCdmY

...I cracked up, said to hell with it, and (knowing that the only way to convert a True Believer is to shoot him squarely between the eyes and hope that by chance you hit him in some sort of vital part of his anatomy), figured I might as well go after some Church of the SubGenius Slack.

So breathe a sigh of relief, Solo610.

The Stark Fist of Removal has yet again been withheld, and you may continue living in your miasma of Boring-ness until J. R. "Bob" Dobbs again turns his regard upon you and asks whether you've paid your $30.00.

And remember, even with the devaluation of the dollar, the Church has *NOT* raised that fee!





--------
"I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

-- J. R. "Bob" Dobbs

SJ
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." - Chapter 5, What's Wrong With The World, 1910

"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man." - Introduction to the Book of Job, 1907

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. — Heywood Broun

An atheist is a man who believes himself an accident. — Francis Thompson

How to trap an atheist: Serve him a fine meal, then ask him if he believes there is a cook. — Source Unknown

The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank. — Dante Gabriel Rossetti

Do you really think this serves a purpose? That is going back and forth with quotes/counter quotes?


Solo610 - Nah, I'm enjoing it.
--
Says Solo610 about vomiting quotations supportive of religious belief because he's completely dead-from-the-neck-up about economics:

"Do you really think this serves a purpose?"


No, but WGAS? This is plainly the best anybody can get out of you, and as long as you're playing sneak-'n-slime, I'm perfectly content to let you go on jerking off.


------------
"Relax in the safety of your own delusions."

-- J. R. "Bob" Dobbs

No Solo--your claim is a lie
Of course: if your claim is true, my claim is true.

See how that works, Solo? So you should be very worried about the police finding out about your activities.

SJDoc
Are you on your meds?

What about highways? Have you gone completely insane? Are you saying the government does nothing but waste? Try getting a bunch of captialists to pay for intercontinental freeway.

What about the court system? Do you think captitalists could enforce their own agreement by packing heat to their signing meetings?

Plus, you are a liar, because to say this:

"private sector investments foreclosed by such diversions of capital, materiel, and manpower - real investments that would certainly have produced greater material advantage for more people *AND* turned profits capable of funding further investments, which government "Investments" *NEVER DO* "

suggests that you don't believe CEO ever pull out their salaries and those of all their grateful subordinate executives (let's just call them the feudal lords) to build homes in ASPEN, buy necessary pied-a-terres, or buy other companies. NONE OF WHICH REPRESENT TRUE INVESTMENT. They simply steal the money from the stockholders and the stockholders take it in the rear because they cannot control the feudal domains without their own private army.

But really, you, from your mountain cabin, which you built with your own hands, not using any of the filthy government monopoly called US Dollars, on land which you and your family for generations has homesteaded without a deed (offering you legal protection) have never used a road or the oooops, ouch, it seems your using the internet, which is sort of supplied to your use by the government.

OOOh, that must hurt.

You insane stinking pig. You stand against everything America is about, WE THE PEOPLE. Not me and my pile of money.



SJDoc
Re-reading your spittle I see you refer to:

For "Police protection" or a "Court System," "Public transportation" or "Hospitals," et-interminable-cetera.

You say:
"Because there's no real economic demand for any of these programs... " You go on to some assinine definition of demand as only the money with which a consumer walks into a mall ready to buy a new pair of pants and you say, therefore, this spending becomes a death trap.

And you are advocating doing away with police protection and the court system?


Just answer that!!!! Are you advocating doing away with the police protection, and the court systems????? If you don't answer that you are a coward and and a liar. I will remind you of that cowardice everytime you post.

SJDoc
Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

trughes
That people are unwilling to pay something the government forces on them says that they don't actually want it. And anyone who forces them to pay for it is a thief.

For once we agree knight
I don't want to pay for illegal immigrants (expenses like health care etc), or a public school education system i don't support. Lets say we agree the government get off their butt and actually do something about the illegal immigration problem. What about public schools? Im sure that you would not support a public school system centered around Christianity. If such a thing existed im sure you would demand your right to send your kid where you saw fit, and maybe get some of the tax money you are pouring in to public schools back so you can pay for your kid's private education.

Sounds like win/win to me.

I don't want any of it, Solo
I want a totally private system. I refuse to support any government offerings, no matter what. Government is based upon the initiation of force, and that is immoral. So it's simply not a case of not supporting a public school based on xianity, but supporting a public school, period.

Hell must have froze over
I agree with you completely.

I asked a simple question:
Are you advocating having NO police protection and no judicial system?

Is that question too complicated for you? I am not talking about Christian Schools.

I repeat: Do you lunatics propose that we do away with all legal and police protections? I also mentioned the construction of roads.

Who do you propose will mop up the blood?

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