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Friday, August 17, 2007
Amanda Carpenter :: Townhall.com Columnist
NASA Blocked Climate Change Blogger from Data
by Amanda Carpenter
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Despite the fact that NASA tried to block him from accessing U.S. temperature data, persistent efforts by a climate change blogger forced the government to amend U.S. temperature data.

Because of the blogger’s efforts, NASA now recognizes 1934 as the hottest year in U.S. history, not 1998.

Steven McIntyre, a former mineral exploration executive and policy analyst for the governments of Ontario and Canada who blogs at ClimateAudit.org, wrote to NASA on August 4. He had found miscalculations in the NASA’s U.S. temperature recordings made after January 2000. “For Detroit Lakes, Minnesota,” McIntyre wrote “this introduced an error of 0.8 deg C.”

NASA responded on August 7 to tell McIntyre data was “changed correspondingly with an acknowledgement of your contribution.” Without any fanfare, the changes were made on the NASA website. The recalculations resulted in an overall decrease in U.S. temperatures since 2000 by 0.15 degrees centigrade. In a phone interview McIntyre said, “That doesn’t necessarily seem that much, but when the entire increase in temperature in the United States had been previously reported to be about half a degree, this .15 degree is not a small number when you are measuring half degree numbers.”

Now, the ten hottest years on record in the U.S., beginning with the hottest year, are: 1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938 and 1939. Before the revision, that list read: 1998, 1934, 2006, 1921, 1931, 1999, 1953, 2001, 1990 and 1938. The re-ranking completely knocked 2001 off the top 10 list.

This U.S. temperature revision could cause problems for former Vice President Al Gore. Assisted by Hansen, Gore asserted in his global warming film “An Inconvenient Truth” that nine of the ten hottest years in U.S. history occurred since 1995.

McIntyre said he began looking at the data because he questioned the reliability of NASA’s U.S. weather stations that recorded temperature data. He said, “Some of them were in places they weren’t supposed to be….one of them was in a parking lot and the trend for the station in a parking lot was way up and a nearby station that was in a proper location in a rural area was relatively flat.”

Chris Horner, author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming and Environmentalism, said McIntyre was able to catch the mistake because he “knew that our surface measuring stations are suspect.” Horner said the polling stations could be affected by things like the construction nearby asphalt parking lots, tar roofs, AC vents, chimneys, or even a grill restaurant.

McIntyre said, “Defenders of the weather station system argued that NASA had software that could fix that data…And, so I wrote to NASA in May and asked them for the source code for the adjustment software that they used to fix these stations and they refused to provide it.”

But, “the adjustments are not small,” McIntyre said. “The adjustments that they make are fully equal the total amount of warming in the United States the past century.”

According to McIntyre, when he began downloading data from NASA’s website to compare the adjusted and the raw data from the polling stations, “this led to a bit of a fight with NASA in May. As I started downloading the data in sequence they cut off my access to the data.”

“They blocked my IP address,” McIntyre said.

When contacted by phone to verify the computer block NASA spokeswoman Leslie McCarthy said, “This is the first I’ve heard of this.” McCarthy had not yet responded to the full transcript at the time of publication.

“After I was blocked and I explained myself they still didn’t want to let me have access to the data,” McIntyre lamented.

He continued: “They just said go look at the original data. And I said no, I want to see the data you used. I know what the original data looks like. I want to see the data that you used. But one of the nice things about having a blog that gets a million and half hits a month is that I then was able to publicize this block in real-time and they very quickly withdrew their position and allowed me to have access.”

When he got the data, McIntyre then compared the raw and adjusted data sets for all 1200 U.S. weather stations. “Probably 75 percent of the stations had jumps of at least a quarter degree in the year 2000,” he said.

Conservative media personalities like talk radio host Rush Limbaugh and blogger Michelle Malkin blasted the revision that was made quietly.

The Director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies James Hansen responded to the critics on the left-wing blog DailyKos. He said that U.S. temperature data change is inconsequential to overall global climate data.. He wrote a diary on their site on August 11 that said, “The effect on global temperature was of order one-thousandth of a degree, so the corrected and uncorrected curves [on global data] are indistinguishable.”

Jeff Kuerter, president of the George C. Marshall Institute, said NASA’s mistake cast doubt on all global climate data because the United States was considered the best at taking analyzing temperatures. “If the U.S. doesn’t get this right what might be happening in other places and why did this error persist so long?” he said.

In an August 13 Newsweek cover story, “The Truth About Denial,” Kuerter’s organization was labeled as part of the “denial machine” in cahoots with Exxon Mobil and the American Petroleum Institute.

Exxon Mobil spokesman Gantt Walton said Exxon had no comment regarding NASA’s climate change revisions.

Even though the data has been corrected, McIntyre is not satisfied. “They claim that they’re adjustment methodology was capable of fixing bad data, I mean, that’s the point I want people to take home from this,” he said. “What they’ve done now is inserted a patch into an error that I identified for them but they haven’t established that the rest of their adjustment methodology is any good.” He recommended that NASA begin archiving the codes they use to make calculations and subject data to public scrutiny or peer-review.

This isn’t the first time McIntyre has caused a stir by questioning global warming data. The Toronto-based McIntyre joined forces with Canadian economist Ross McKitrick to refute data put forth by United Nations in 2001 that said use of fossil fuels was causing global warming. Included in the report was a graphic that showed 20th century temperatures sharply rising as time went on in the form of a hockey stick, which later became the name of the graph. McIntyre and McKitrick found an error in the mathematical calculation used to construct the “hockey stick.” Their findings led to a congressional investigation led by then-chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee Rep. Joe Barton (R.-Tex.).

Below is Carpenter’s transcript of her interview with Steven McIntyre:

Q. Can you explain to me in layman’s terms how you found this error?

Yeah. Quickly, a fellow in California named Anthony Watts noticed that some of the weather stations used to make historical U.S. statistics were located in places they weren’t supposed to be. One of them was in a parking lot and the trend for the station in a parking lot was way up and a nearby station that was in a proper location in a rural area was relatively flat. So, this led to some controversy and he started a volunteer effort where people started surveying these weather stations and seeing what they looked like.

Now, defenders of the weather station system argued that NASA had software that could fix that data. And, so it really didn’t matter if the station was in a parking lot in Tuscan or something like that. NASA software could fix it. So, that type of adjustment is a statistical issue that interests me. And, so I wrote to NASA in May and asked them for the source code for the adjustment software that they used to fix these stations and they refused to provide it. So I got interested in sort of looking at comparing the version of the temperature history of individual stations that NASA had against original data. I noticed that in some cases there was a very sharp jump in the differences between these two versions. The NASA version took a step in January 2000 relative to the original data. So, I then collected the data for both the NASA versions and the original data for all 1200 stages in the US historical network.

This led to a bit of fight with NASA in May because as I started downloading the data in sequence they cut off my access to the data.

Q. Meaning, your computer?

They blocked my IP address.

Q. Why were they so opposed?

Well, first of all they probably weren’t used to, they don’t have a very efficient distribution of the data so I ended up scraping the data off various web pages and I had written a computer program to do that. So, I was repetitively downloading data. Anyway, even after I was blocked and I explained myself they still didn’t want to let me have access to the data. They just said go look at the original data. And I said no, I want to see the data you used. I know what the original data looks like. I want to see the data that you used. But one of the nice things about having a blog that gets a million and half hits a month is that I then was able to publicize this block in real-time and they very quickly withdrew their position and allowed me to have access.

Once they did that, I downloaded all 1200 stations and calculated the value of this step in the year 2000. In some cases it was a negative step and in some cases it was a positive step, but it became clear that what they had done they had, for some reason, changed the version of data that they were using in 2000. Before 2000 they were using an adjusted version of data and after 2000 they were using an unadjusted version.

After the controversy broke out NASA has said that the reason they did that was because the adjusted version was never available after 2000. That’s actually untrue. The adjusted version is sitting in exactly the same data directory. It just seems to be an error of some kind on their part.

The amount on individual stations and this is where we started, trying to explain problems with individual stations, had jumps of up to one degree centigrade. I calculated a distribution of these jumps for all 1200 stations. Many of the jumps were negative, but the number of small jumps was itself only a fraction. Probably 75 percent of the stations had jumps of at least a quarter degree in the year 2000. But the average, because there both positive and negative ended up being somewhat over .15 degrees. That doesn’t necessarily seem that much, but when the entire increase in temperature in the United States had been previously reported to be about half a degree, this .15 degree is not a small number when you are measuring half degree numbers.

So, I sent them an email notifying them of this error on Saturday August 4th and I pointed out that I thought they had changed data sources and on Tuesday August 7th they sent me a note agreeing that there was an error and they had, when I looked at their website, they had replaced the data for all1200 U.S. historical weather stations and they’d also replaced their U.S. temperature history. While they added a mention of me on their webpage describing their methodology, but didn’t provide any notice to readers that they had replaced all this data. So, for example, if you had been doing a study which required that you knew what the temperature was in Reno there was no notice that the data you’d had downloaded prior to August 2007 had contained an error. And in some cases a very large error.

When I looked at what their restated U.S. temperature history was, I noticed there was a change in the leading years. So, I wrote a light-hearted post on my blog that said there’s a change in the leader board at the U.S. Open and that even though people thought that the years 1934 and the years 1998 had been in the clubhouse and had a shower, in fact they were still on the course and that 1934 had a late birdie and 1998 had a late bogie and 2006 had a late-triple bogie and when the dust settled 1934 was now the leader of the U.S. Open.

Q. It seems at the heart of this was that NASA was unwilling to give you the methodology.

There are a couple of layers of issues. One issue was that they had an error. After I had identified this particular error to them and asked them for their source code so I could see how the rest of their adjustments actually worked, and this was really kind of an incidental point in checking their adjustment process. One of the things I started from was trying to evaluate whether their adjustment process was equal in adjusting bad data.

I think you can conclude from this exercise is that there adjustment software was obviously incapable of picking up fictionist jumps even as big as one degree centigrade in the year 2000 and the proof was in the pudding because they hadn’t picked it up. In fact, they hadn’t only failed to fix it, they created it.

So, they claim that their adjustment methodology was capable of fixing bad data, I mean, that’s the point I want people to take home from this. What they’ve done now is inserted a patch into an error that I identified for them but they haven’t established that the rest of their adjustment methodology is any good.

The adjustments are not small. The adjustments that they make are fully equal to the total amount of warming in the United States the past century. So, you’re dealing with adjustments that are the same size as the effect that you are trying to measure. So, it’s worth spending a minute or two trying to understand exactly what they did. Now, my interest in these things is understanding exactly what they did.

Now, their point of view is well, Gavin Schmidt of NASA says well “I don’t get this audit mean.” What he calls the audit mean. Well you know, everyone in the world, if you aren’t an academic and you’re doing business offerings or you work in a company, you get audited. And you can’t say to an auditor, here are the invoices, you do your own financial statements if you don’t like ours. Then, the auditor says my only interest how you did yours. So, when Gavin Schmidt says well you don’t think we’ve done an adjustment methodology, why don’t you do your own calculation and you can publish it, try to publish it in peer-reviewed literature and we can start from there.

My take is well, I’ve had other experiences with folks like that before and then they think if you mis-implemented their methodology they scream to high heaven. So, I said “No” and they said “You are asking to be spoon-fed” and I said “No, I’m not asking to be spoon-fed.” I’ll deal with raw code, it’s just that the verbal descriptions in academic articles to not meet the kind of engineering, quality level that I expect from things or that I am looking for and that represents one point of dispute between me and them. They don’t seem to accept the idea. This is an important issue and therefore academics have to stop being precious and arguing that these codes are their private property.

Q. If NASA were to handle this all better, or to your liking, what are some recommendations you’d give them?

One of the main recommendations I’ve consistently made both to NASA and to journals is that when people publish articles they should have to archive the data as they used it. The exact providence of their data if they downloaded it from an internet archive they should have to post the URL of the place where they got the data and the date they downloaded it so you can know the exact version they got in case the versions change. And, they should archive the code in which they obtained the calculations.

This is not by any means an impossible or far-fetched set of protocols. In econometrics right now, if you want to get an article published in the American Economic Review, a leading journal, that’s exactly what you have to do. That policy was instituted by the then-editor who is now chairman of the Federal Reserve System. It’s a policy that is easy to implement and there is a lot more riding right now on climate policy than there is on labor market studies or studies of inflation. So, I think there’s every reason to require NASA and other contributors to climate science to improve their game in terms of how they provide disclosure to other readers and other researchers of their methodology and data.

In some cases there are some real problems. You know Lonnie Thompson. the ice guy, has published sort of summaries of his data which are mutually inconsistent and I’ve tried to get original sample data to try and reconcile these and he’s refused and he’s published articles in journals and the journals have refused to require him to do it and the National Science Foundation which has funded it has refused to require it so it’s not just NASA it’s a very widespread problem in climate science right now.

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About The Author
Amanda Carpenter is the author of “The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy's Dossier on Hillary Clinton,” published in October 2006.
 
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Lack of openness in climate science
Amanda,
Thank you for the fine piece. The fact climate scientists are not willing to abide by the policies of funding agencies and journal publishers is a major issue. McIntyre is right to focus on this. President Bush just signed the America COMPETES Act requiring government researchers to provide data, method and code to the public. It is disappointing that Congress had to pass a law to tell scientists to do the right thing. And to be honest, I'm still not certain climate scientists will comply.

This lack of openness is not a hallmark of science, but pseudoscience. It reminds me of that line from the Wizard of Oz: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

Another supprossion of data
Let's see. We have attempts by the AGW crowd to indimidate dissenters from expressing there dissent. And we have climate "scientists" withholding the data they used to arrive at their specious conclusions. Oh yeah, and then there is research peer reviewed by other "scientists" who had previously collaborated with the researcher on other projects. Peer reviewed indeed! The AGW folks have completely trashed their own credibility.

In response to Buck2
In other words, you can't refute a word of the article. And your criticism of McIntyre rings hollow: odd how NASA felt the need to accept his 'full of holes' approach.

Maybe you need to accept that science doesn't need your approval.

A curious thing
Certain people glory in being far more rational or science-minded than their conservative counterparts... until the science says something with which they disagree, that seems to contradict their dearly-held beliefs. Then see how many attack the findings or their authors, how many try to distract attention from the matter, how many try to find complicated ways of explaining that black is white!

In truth, most such folks don't understand the intricacies of climate science well enough to do more than invest blind faith in the interpretation that suits them (or, perhaps more often, in the wealthy, glittering popular opinion leader that presents the case).

Make no mistake, neither this adjustment nor the revelation of the bad science that made it necessary disprove anthropogenic global warming. But the simple fact that it rips away one popular tenet and prop of The Faith is more than enough to whip up vituperation and rage.

Level of discourse
If the likes of DJF and Buck2 are to be the standard of debate on the pro human global warming side, then there's simply nothing to discuss because at that lowly level, argument and discussion become impossible. Nex

Fake but accurate
Dan Rather showed the way. If the facts/measurements don't support your point of view, just make something up. Or better yet, adopt someone else's fraud.

The problem: You know the answers already, it's just these darn measured values don't support the conclusions you want everyone to believe.

Solution: Let's "adjust" the data to make our point more persuasive. If we get busted, we stonewall the methods we used (we're too good for peer review) and we get our good buds in the MSM to get the ad hominem thing going (hello, buck2).

The story that NASA is
promulgating for this is that this was a y2k issue in that the fix put in effect then was in error. That seems hard to believe for a k-factor for adjusting temperature. As I recall, there were 3 major issues associated with y2k and they all revolved around specific dates not computations for temperature.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of this in the long hall. We know that there was fraudulent intent involved with the infamous hockey stick chart. When ALL of the data is available for this will it also show fraudulent intent?

No Diabolical Scheme
I don't really think NASA deliberately did anything. I think they just didn't like some guy from out of nowhere telling them they made a mistake and they probably still resent the idea of having someone checking behind them constantly hence the attitude on sharing the raw data in the future. It's pride and embarrassment, not evil, that is driving their reaction.

That's no surprise, the data that the...
...EPA used to set our emissions standards in the '90s was a better kept secret than our nuclear weapons designs.


Lucky for me I recalled two of the first 'man-made global warming' proponents I saw in the '80s were the same ones that published an article in the early '70s claiming industrial pollution was triggering an ice age(apparently someone informed them the sun was about to enter a high output phase). When you have opposite problems with the same cause and solution, you are looking at a 'solution' in search of a problem.


People are getting wise, anybody want to buy some carbon offsets, I just printed up a new batch. My SUV is almost paid off, and I want to buy a plane. My offsets are worth as much as anybody else's.

Hansen is a contributor to DailyKos?
Think he has a political agenda? It's astounding to me. He should be summarily dismissed and totally castigated by the scientific community.

Y2K
You are right Vic. Not only was the Y2K "bug" date oriented but it wasn't really an issue to deal with on any contemporary OS. My university spent months getting ready for the Y2K turnover as did everyone else. Unless NASA is running Windows 95 for these measurment systems or its IT department is completely clueless, then blaming it on Y2K is a lie.

Furthermore, the bug would affect more than just the measuring stations built on hot asphalt parking lots - it would affect all the stations, in which case, all the temperature data should be recalculated.

The dirty little secret is that we HAVE good temperature data, that being from satellites. However, since satellite readings do not show the kind of warming the ground based stations do, NASA tends to go with the ones that do show warming. For them, if the measuring equipment is sitting next door to an outdoor BBQ grill, all the better.


What is diabolical
Laura writes:

"I don't really think NASA deliberately did anything [evil]."

They most certainly did. They faked numbers using bogus "adjustments" and then were caught red-handed trying to stop someone from questioning their methodology. Actually I would prefer to believe that NASA is evil over incompetent. At lease that still leaves room to believe they know what they are doing when they send the SS into orbit.

But let's just look at their claim. They say they can "adjust" for situations where the measurement station is located near a source of heat. If the measurement stations are sitting on hot parking lots, how can they possibly "adjust" for that? Do they have some way of knowing how much heat the blacktop is adding to the equation? Do they have some table in a database somewhere that says that if a measuring station is showing the outside temperature is 114 degrees because it is sitting next to a restaurant grill exhaust fan that they should adjust that figure to 104 degrees? Why not 98 degrees or 64 degrees? Do they have some Excel spreadsheet someplace that has a list of grills and how much heat exits the exhaust port based on the length of pipe between the grill inside and the exit hole in the wall? C'mon, the variables are nearly infinite. No software could possibly come up with an "adjustment" for all these variables.

This whole ground-based temperature measuring system is a joke anyway. Many of the stations are in urban heat islands and even if they weren't there are not enough of them to give any reliable information. This is why satellite data should be the primary source of temperature measurement, not a thermometer sitting next to the heatpump outside the local Burger King.

I'm afraid it appears Buck2 ...
is really Buck-2th.

Beeblebrox
I had to develope and implement a test program for software that I used for a particular function at that time and certify it. I thought that there were several dates that were an issue. Also, I wouldn't think that use of Win95 would cause a pure math calculation error due to a Y2K error.

Also, I had read somewhere that instead of adjusting temperatures down due to the heat island effect, that NASA was adjusting temperatures up because US temperatures consistently read lower than European temperatures. I don't know the validity of that.

I did see a paper written by another scientist that said that BASA had adjusted the K-factors during the last several years and made the calculated temperatures increase over what had been the trend. He said that without this adjustment we would have stabilized or have decreasing temperatures now.

buck2
The ice caps have been melting for millions of years.
Where did you think water came from?

Scientists puzzeled by 1850-1950 warming
According to a recent article, "scientists" arein agreement over the "cause of global warming" from 1950 on...The Human Being".

However none have been able to definitively explain the temperature increase from the end of the "Mini Ice Age" in 1850 up to 1950(the Era of the Evil Human Race).

the answer is obvious:
NASA needs more money to further study the issue. After all, all problems get better when you throw money at them and wave a magic wand.

I'm not surprised to hear that weighting factors are used to assemble the national average. A quick look at the distribution of weather stations shows clumping in some areas and wide open spaces so any regional trends that hit a clump would otherwise be over-adjusted.

Plain human error is a much more likely culprit than anything sinister. I don't buy the "Y2K" excuse either.

Wake Up People
I realize it's hard to think one of our government scientists would lie, but please people - HE RESPONDED ON THE DAILY KOS!

Modern "Environmentalism" is not about the environment. It is about political control. For proof:

1) We are being encouraged to drive hybrid cars. These cars contain huge batteries that are a pollution nightmare, both to manufacture and dispose of. The heavy metals and chemicals in those batteries will damage the environment for years.

2) We are being encouraged to use florescent bulbs. These bulbs contain high levels of mercury. Same problem as above, in manufacture and disposal.

3) The New World mine project outside of Yellowstone Park was blocked by environmentalists. One reason for the project was to clean up an abandoned adit that is pouring toxic waste into Clark Fork. The watermelons (green on outside, red on inside) never mentioned this. They never put forth a plan to mitigate the pollution. To this day, the 1920's era adit still pours toxic waste into Clark Fork. But the issue helped save a leftist President who, after building a career on protecting women from sexual harassment, felt he was above the law. Obviously, protecting a perjurer was more important to them than protecting Clark Fork.

I could go on & on, but it is easy enough to figure out. Today's "environmentalists" are concerned with creating a new America based on government control of most aspects of your life, such as freedom of movement. If they have to destroy the environment to get there they will.

Verry Innnteresting
As Arte Johnson used to say. (Boy, am I dating myself here.)

First Hansen says that U.S. contributions to AGW are critical, and that the U.S. therefore has to take the lead in changing (i.e., wrecking) our economy to prevent AGW.

BUT when a third party takes an impartial look at the raw data, and finds that the collection method and processing procedures were both flawed, and that the raw data not only does not support his "theory", but in fact contradicts it, suddenly the U.S. "contribution to worldwide temperatures is so small as to be irrelevant". And he continues to demand the same course of action he started out with, anyway. And does so, not in the academic arena, but at a notoriously radical and often virulently anti-American blog.

Of course, if he had done the same thing in an academic milieu', at some point, somebody might have told him (as E. E. "Doc" Smith would say), "Prove it or retract it!"

I don't think we need any more proof that Hansen has engaged in academic fraud on a scale at least equal to Ward Churchill's. And like Churchill, his accreditation should be yanked, and he should be fired. Immediately.


cheers

eon

It's called the Fudge Factor
aka the Universal Correction Coefficient.Any time experimental data fail to support your hallowed hypothesis there are two steps to take. First, determine the quantitative gap between your data and the desired result. Second, multiply the erronous data by this factor and like magic, the data align with your predetermined conclusions. Any honest scientist who applies so called adjusted data would openly disclose the nature and application methodology of any such adjustment.

A question about Gore
I don't get it. How can Gore be saying that "nine of the ten hottest years in U.S. history occurred since 1995" when even on the original list only four of them occurred since 1995? Is he that big of a liar? Or did Amanda Carpenter get the original list wrong? Or has the list been changed twice since he made that statement?

Whatever the case, it sure doesn't look good for the true believers.

NASA SINGULAR
There is a problem with the singularity of the term and concept NASA. The terms proffered are NASA says this or NASA does that and that NASA decided to act accordingly. From a vast collection of engineers, scientists, and military professionals there arises a monolith of single decisions and single voice. Whereas, NASA is corporate and a specific government agency with prescribed independence it is also true that there appears to be no one person in charge. Publicly, the NASA Number One Figurehead Spokesperson or Chief Executive Officer is a mystery. Does James Hansen of NASA speak for the entire organization and is the entire organization singularly convinced about the fanfare surrounding Global Warming, Climate Change, and Greenhouse Gases? Does the organizational structure and operational culture of NASA allow for minority views and decent of opinion? Perhaps NASA is an autocratic entity where all opinions and attitudes evolve secretly within its cloistered confines which from a democratic point of view is frightening.
Added Correction: James Hanses - Director of Goddard something at NASA, so what is he the only voice for this is=nside NASA organization?

The most important fact to take away
The most important fact to take away from this discussion is:

NASA's data are not peer-reviewed.

This is not how science is supposed to work, folks.

eon:
Excellent points once again. You really should start your own blog.

Cheers from just north of you!

- Primus54

Just in the last few months...
I've heard the following just in the last few months:

1) NASA's US temperature data readings contained upward errors because of software adjustments.

2) Global temperatures through the 1990s seem higher because a large number of stations around the Arctic Circle (all those owned by the Soviet Union) stopped reporting in 1989.

3) Temperature reporting stations around the globe are disproportionately located near urban heat islands, creating an upward bias in temperatures in later years.

I, for one, do not any longer accept the claim that "everybody agrees the earth is warming." There may be a long-term trend, but until I see a serious effort on the part of scientists worldwide to correct these and other possible errors in the temperature data, I'm regarding global temperature reading as an incompletely-formed science, and not trusting the numbers.

Furthermore, I think it's growing increasingly clear that political hacks have infiltrated the ranks of US scientists and are introducing political biases into government-sponsored research.

I love science, but we need to be aware that a lot of it can't be trusted anymore... until climate science is depoliticized, I will trust independent reports a lot more than I trust government reports.

Real Climate
Here's something I found on the RealClimate website, in the comments section of the following article: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/08/transparency-of-the-ipcc-process-2/

The first comment is chastising NASA for interfering with Mr. McIntyre's work. Then another commenter replies to the criticism. The reply shows you what the AGW supporters think of those who question them.

#3 Deech56 That doesn’t happen in my field (immunology). Why hold climate science to a different standard?

Because it’s wrong. Steve McIntyre shouldn’t have to file a FOI request to get data. I can understand 20 years ago when data might have had to have been shipped all over the world on magnetic tape. But with the internet, an important job of a journal should be archiving the data and source code used to arrive at conclusions in the article.

Where else should this job reside? We’ve seen from numerous requests with unsatisfactory answers that the researchers aren’t up to the task. I dont’ fault the researchers. With job changes, HDD crashes, etc, it’s too big of a task to put on the individual.

Comment by Matt — 9 August 2007 @ 6:33 PM


*************************************************

Re #12: Obviously things that are legally public records need to be treated like that regardless of who’s requesting them, but THE REASON STEVE MCINTYRE GENERALLY DOES NOT RECEIVE COOPERATION BEYOND THAT (sic) MIMIMUM IS BECAUSE HIS INTEREST IN THESE MATTERS IS NOT SCIENTIFIC. Even his use of the financial audit meme is fraudulent since financial audits don’t just cherry-pick small parts of a company’s operations. He’s a denialist, just smarter and more polite than the average.

Comment by Steve Bloom — 9 August 2007 @ 7:35 PM

I put the key comment in all caps. BTW, the Gavin Schmidt mentioned by McIntyre is one of the owners of the Real Climate site.

Software can't possibly adjust...
NASA "scientists" told McIntyre that they had software that could fix that data.

Don't believe it.

The recent effort by amateurs to survey all the climate measurement stations in the US is not duplicating a survey done by NASA or any other government entity; the survey has never been done before. Therefore any attempt to adjust temperature data for local heat island effects has to be based on guesses, not on actual measurements.

Let's take it for granted that NASA's data are flawed, and cannot be trusted, until they produce the algorithms they use and expose them to proper peer review.

I wonder
How many scientists at NASA have stock in Gore's "Carbon Offset" company...

inkling_revival
I'm with you... I no longer concede the assumption that there is wholesale global warming -- certainly not the assumption that there has been a dramatic increase in warming over the past 50+ years and that we are headed for catastrophe if we "humans" don't take action.

Frankly, I think it is human arrogance to think we could positively effect an outcome even if we tried. I mean -- how successful have we been in altering local weather patterns so far?

inkling_revival
BTW... I meant to compliment you on your posts yesterday within a different but related article.

Like "eon", you too should begin a blog.

Cheers!

- Primus54

What they think of critics
EllisWyatt wrote: "The reply shows you what the AGW supporters think of those who question them... 'BECAUSE HIS INTEREST IN THESE MATTERS IS NOT SCIENTIFIC.'"

Good catch, Ellis.

This is actually an example of a meme we've seen for decades from the political, social, and religious left. Anybody who dares question their orthodoxy is, by very virtue of those questions, "Not Scientific." Because, you see, if you were Scientific, you'd be on Their Side. "Science" is actually a philosophy to them, not a practice.

This creates a further sleaze tactic surrounding peer review. Leftists in white coats routinely refuse articles from deprecated sources criticizing their dogma, and won't publish them. Then, when questioned about why they won't consider those criticisms, they say "These folks are not true scientists." And their evidence? "None of their articles are published in peer-reviewed journals." It's a neat Catch-22.

They've been doing this to the Intelligent Design folks for a decade, and to the Creationists and the politically incorrect a lot longer than that, especially anyone attempting to publish research that reflects poorly on homosexuals. And now they're doing it to the Deniers, 'cause it's worked in those other fields.

Personally, I think Creationists are too biased to be trusted. However, that's not a valid reason to exclude them from the debate; I think the same is true of their critics. SCIENCE works by letting the chips fall where they may -- if the articles of Deniers, Creationists, "haters" or others cannot be refuted in pure, scientific terms, there's no basis for saying they've been refuted at all.

So I say, don't buy the argument that "they don't publish in peer-reviewed journals." That's just a scam to make sure the latest dogma stays protected.

Call it what you will
But the fact that the raw data is not made available. That the results were modified with software to correct the raw data (to what effect) and the algorithm used to do the correction was not audited places any determination based on the data in question. If this data is used to support a hypothisis then that hypothisis is invalidated or at the least unsubstantiated.

Primus54
Thank you for your support, Primus54, and your kind words. Personally, I think I was probably about 50% wrong in yesterday's discussion, but I'll make the adjustments and go on.

The blog is definitely coming. In fact, if you want to, you can find about 4 months' worth of articles (from about a year back) at 360.yahoo.com/inkling_revival, and some of what's there isn't all that bad.

Nexx, pay attention, dang it!
Nex, I think you need to wake up. Go back and reread my post. I was pointing out a pattern of very unscientific behavior on the part of pro AGW climate "scientists". I am most certainly not on the pro AGW side.

Sorry I didn't take the time to look for the name of the person who made the following post:

"Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who buy into McIntyre's science, but not many are in the scientific community. Amanda, what a sham."

Oooookay. So McIntyre finds an error in NASA's data and NASA admits it. So where is the problem with buying into McIntyre's science?






Questions no AGW kook can answer:
1) If the "evidence" for man-made global warming is so "indisputable", why, then, do you feel the need to hide said data from independent review?

2) If $15 million over an 8-year period could persuade a collection of scientists to lie about man-made global warming, as you kooks claim, what do you think the effect of the $24 BILLION you kooks received just last year?

3) If the Kyoto Treaty, and any similar proposals to day will have "no significant effect" on global temperatures, yet will cost the global economy TRILLIONS of dollars (all according to YOUR OWN admissions), why then ought we subject ourselves to said treaties?

4) If there is a "consensus" on global warming, why then is the list of scientists who quit the IPCC, demanding their names be removed from their reports GROWING?

5) If there is a "consensus" on global warming, why did Science magazine refuse to publish a survey performed in the very same manner as published surveys from 1996 indicating that those climate scientists who "strongly believe" global warming is human induced are in the fringe minority?

I could go on, but I'm sure none of the AGW kooks will even answer these questions.

EllisWyatt, inkling_revival
"BECAUSE HIS INTEREST IN THESE MATTERS IS NOT SCIENTIFIC."

I was taught in college to ignore people's motives when discussing their objections and to simply focus on the objection. I was taught that dismissing an objection because of the motives of the person making the objection is a fallacy.

RE: Phylo
Instead of puking the same old left wing tripe, why not take a shot at answering my questions?

Oh, that's right, in answering my questions, you will have exposed yourself for what you are: a hack unconcerned with truth, and SOLELY concerned with AlGore®'s plot to spread fascism via any means necessary.

Phylo
Right back at ya, dingus...

Amazing how you liberal loons just slobber all over everything Al Gore and his Hollywood cronies say.

What's also amazing is that you guys act like you're all about dissent and yet you turn into fascists when people don't agree with you.

Back to the boobie-hatch with you!!

Phylo
Phylo, you old fraud! I was wondering when you'd swoop in to drop your "reasoned" wit to this argument.

Oh... and I just LOVE your logic about a "meaningless change in data."

Let's see... we are supposed to get all worked up about a 1 degree C increase in global temperature over a 150 year period. According to my handy calculator, that is an average of .007 degree per year. So... if NASA's "error" amounts to "only" 0.15 degree, that respresents, what, 22-1/2 years of average global warming!

Yep... totally meaningless.

Jackass....


beowulfe:
First time I've seen your "AlGore®" post.

Now THAT'S funny! Thanks for the laugh.

A Choice
Let's see. Do I believe Al Gore, and his Mr. Hansen who posts on DailyKos; or Mr. McIntyre? I'll take Mr. McIntyre....!!

If the REAL truth cannot be presented..
then keep your damned hands out of my wallet!! All this global warming is crap. Just a way for Gore and his cronies to make money. I bought a bag of multi-grain chips yesterday. On the front of the bag is a notice that they buy green credits!! What a scam. Let the TRUTH be told by all and quit trying to play games with my money!

Phylo
Thanks, Phylo. I looked at the "Hockey Stick" link many times and we all know how THAT turned out!

OMG... you aren't going to drag out that old & tired "military-industrial complex" argument of yours again, are you??

It's Friday and I'm already tired from a full week... please don't put me and everyone else into a coma!

Exposed
Recently, also papers from the 20's and 30's were acquired from the Library of Congress via The Freedom of Information Act. The scientists were all upset about glaciers melting. They had lost a famous glacier. They were talking of such warming that they were fearing what would happen to the earth.

And I remember in the seventies, we were having another ice age.

This global warming is such a scam, it would be laughable if it weren't so dangerous to the gullible.

Want to challenge your notion...
Anybody here want to challenge your notion that most scientists agree that humans are causing global warming?

Please cruise over to this article and read it in its entirety.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=c47c1209-233b-412c-b6d1-5c755457a8af

In the author's own words:

"My series set out to profile the dissenters -- those who deny that the science is settled on climate change -- and to have their views heard. To demonstrate that dissent is credible, I chose high-ranking scientists at the world's premier scientific establishments. I considered stopping after writing six profiles, thinking I had made my point, but continued the series due to feedback from readers. I next planned to stop writing after 10 profiles, then 12, but the feedback increased. Now, after profiling more than 20 deniers, I do not know when I will stop -- the list of distinguished scientists who question the IPCC grows daily, as does the number of emails I receive, many from scientists who express gratitude for my series.

"Somewhere along the way, I stopped believing that a scientific consensus exists on climate change. Certainly there is no consensus at the very top echelons of scientists -- the ranks from which I have been drawing my subjects -- and certainly there is no consensus among astrophysicists and other solar scientists, several of whom I have profiled. If anything, the majority view among these subsets of the scientific community may run in the opposite direction."

Read it. And if you have time, read some of the Denier's Series.

The basis for rejecting scientific work
re Bigg Dogg, 10:09 AM:

Really? They bring the Bible into the laboratory? Then it should be fairly easy to refute their claims using scientific data, which is the only valid means by which true scientists can refute claims.

The attempt to dismiss ANYBODY from the debate because of their beliefs immediately marks the person making the attempt as a bigot, not a scientist.

Seriously, you need to go read JFP's post from 9:47 AM and memorize it. He's defined the ad hominem fallacy very simply and accurately.

(By the way, I note with approval that you've apparently stopped identifying yourself with a murderous thief. Good for you. Now if you can only stop making "poo-poo" names out of your opponents' nicknames like a bad-tempered 8-year-old, you'll just about be ready to participate in adult discussions.)

The basis for rejecting scientific work
re Bigg Dogg, 10:09 AM:

Really? They bring the Bible into the laboratory? Then it should be fairly easy to refute their claims using scientific data, which is the only valid means by which true scientists can refute claims.

The attempt to dismiss ANYBODY from the debate because of their beliefs immediately marks the person making the attempt as a bigot, not a scientist.

Seriously, you need to go read JFP's post from 9:47 AM and memorize it. He's defined the ad hominem fallacy very simply and accurately.

(By the way, I note with approval that you've apparently stopped identifying yourself with a murderous thief. Good for you. Now if you can only stop making "poo-poo" names out of your opponents' nicknames like a bad-tempered 8-year-old, you'll just about be ready to participate in adult discussions.)

RE: Phylo
"All of the premises of your questions are highly suspect."

What, because you're terrified that by honestly answering them, you expose yourself as the shill that you are? That's what I though!

"For example, this guy says that NASA hid the data. that's his claim. It's possible that they just didn't want to bother with some pesty blogger."

Uh huh. They actively block his IP address. That was an OVERT action intended to prevent him access to the data. You're telling me that represents "not wanting to bother with him"? OVERTLY going OUT OF THEIR WAY to block his IP address? If you REALLY believe THAT, then not only are you a shill, but also a moron.

"So how about providing sources to back up all of your claims. If they come from right wing hacks, I will naturally question their veracity."
...
"The overwhelming number of scientists studying this issue have come down on the side that the warming is happening, and man is contributing."

Professor Dennis Bray, GKSS Forschungszentrum, Geesthacht, Germany was the one who most recent survey of climate scientists found only 9.4% of them "strongly agree" that global warming is mostly a result of humans. I'm sure that simply because he has DEBUNKED your "overwhelming majority" tripe, you'll label him a "right wing hack".

On the OTHER hand, on YOUR side you have a collection of UN Bureaucrats, a "scientist" who lied about being "silenced" and who posts on DailyKOS, and a former Vice President who received Cs and Ds in his science classes. Yeah, they're not hacks!

Admit it. You ARE a shill. If your DNC master told you 2 + 2 = 834256389563429763942756lkjafsdh3425gh4tb, you'd label any mathemetician who disagreed with that assessment a "right wing hack".

science is the search for the truth
i do not understand the reluctance to share the methodologies and data used in the analysis?

i worked in research science in college. data and methodologies were shared to try to ferret out any underlying mechanism.

the idea was to get to the truth and not defend a position. we looked at assumptions, data quality, uncontrollable variables, etc.

i question any scientific organization that does not share its data, analysis and methodologies. what are they trying to hide?

when they hide data and information they are advocates not scientists. they are banking on the reputation of honesty and integrity that scientists currently enjoy. but they are nothing more than lawyers in labcoats. and you know how trusted lawyers are.


What's your source, Phylo
"The overwhelming number of scientists studying this issue have come down on the side that the warming is happening, and man is contributing."

Overwhelming number of scientists studying the issue....hmmm, overwhelming number. I suppose you have a source for that very scholarly statement Phylo. Maybe some left wing political hacks as typified by Marxist Markos Moulitsas-Zuniga over at the DailyKos?

Another Left-Wing Fraud
Yesterday it was Ann Coulter's column cataloging the way the left has consistently lied about the war and now a leftist heading NASA is so stupid that he answers his critics on the Daily Kos, underlining his political agenda. The frightening thing is how the fever to control the economy by these idiots has poisoned the scientific community. A commitment to the truth is fundamental to a free society. Its fundamental to a healthy economy. The left, given power, will drag us into poverty and servitude; .15 of a degree, when its a self-serving lie made for political purposes, is not a little thing. It shows that the people who want to smother our free economy have no scruples and if they ever get power people like McIntyre will put be in mental institutions so Hansen's scientific collegues can help them to 'get their minds right'.

To Moses
Lead us out of the desert you nailed it. Science is NOT opinion or it shouldnt be!

inkling_revival writes:
inkling_revival writes: Friday, August, 17, 2007 8:59 AM
The most important fact to take away
The most important fact to take away from this discussion is:

NASA's data are not peer-reviewed.

This is not how science is supposed to work, folks.
****

And that has been my whole point of contention since the global warming/climate change claims have been made.

In order for true scientific process to take place the theory and all data and methodology used to support the theory must be made available for careful scrutiny by other scientists (AKA peer review). This part of the process is called "full disclosure", and thus far the pro-global warming/climate change claims have skipped this portion of the process, or only let others who agree with them to do the peer review which isn't how the process works. You do not get to pick and choose who peer reviews your work.

In fact when someone does urge this part of the process take place they call them names, call for their censure, or accuse them of collusion with "big oil".

But the pro-global warming/climate change people demand the "full disclosure" of anyone that makes claims contrary to their conclusions. That is called being hypocritical or operating under a double standard.

'The search for truth'
Moses, were this actually science, you would be correct.

That is simply NOT the case in the global warming debate. Those most bigerously pushing for AGW have vested interests in imposing harsh sanctions upon the people of the United States. The members of the UN see the US as the richest nation on Earth, and they want to snatch that wealth away from us. Rich guys like AlGore® seek to prevent their own wealth and power from being diluted by working to prohibit anyone else from becoming rich and powerful.

THAT is what this is all about. NOT science, but the power to steal the wealth of the US and prevent anyone else from gaining wealth and power.

Now, I know, you'll be saying "That sounds silly! Such a vast conspiracy!"

Allow me to give one example PROVING this thesis: When AlGore® was confronted with his hypocrisy of living in a home that consumes more energy in one month than anyone elses consumes in a year, what was his response? "Well, I bought carbon credits!" In layman's terms, he said "I can afford to pay extra because I'm rich, so I'm allowed to pollute the environment!" Were he ACTUALLY serious about AGW, he wouldn't be claiming that wealth is a substitute for saving the environment.

Typo
'bigerously' = 'vigerously'

Fat fingers :p

The bigot returns
Bigg Dogg wrote:

"...they bring the bible into the lab and expect respect."

Some people are bigoted, some people are morons. But when you are both, thy name is "Bigg Dogg".

Just a sampling of founding scientists who got no respect for bringing the Bible into the lab:

Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1626) Lord Chancellor of England, is said to be the one who began the “scientific method.”

Johann Kepler (1571-1630), discovered the laws of planetary motion and celestial mechanics.

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), mathematician, philosopher, a founder of hydrostatics and hydrodynamics.

Robert Boyle (1627-1691), father of modern chemistry.

Nicolaus Steno (1631-1686), developed the principles of stratigraphical interpretation of fossils.

Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727), discoverer of the law of gravitation.

William Herschel (1738-1822), astronomer and telescope maker.

Michael Faraday (1791-1867) One of the greatest scientists of all time.

Samuel F.B. Morse (1791-1872), inventor of the telegraph.

Matthew Maury (1806-1873), father of oceanography.

James Joule (1818-1889), physicist and one of the chief founders of the scientific discipline of thermodynamics.

Louis Agassiz (1807-1873), paleontologist, glaciologist, professor of natural history at Harvard.

Louis Pasteur (1822-1895), established the germ theory of disease.

William Thompson, Lord Kelvin (1824-1907), was a Bible-believing Christian.

Joseph Lister (1827-1912) was a great English surgeon, who developed the concept of antiseptic surgery and chemical disinfectants.

Joseph Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) Mathematical framework for electromagnetic field theory and other theoretical physics works.

George Washington Carver (1864-1943), the greatest black scientist of all time.

Wernher von Braun (1912-1977), the father of the U.S. space program.

Damn all those backward, Bible-believers. Too bad they got no respect ;-)

Phylo Se Fizer writes:
So how about providing sources to back up all of your claims. If they come from right wing hacks, I will naturally question their veracity.
****
Well then NASA is better than you since they looked at the issue Mr. McIntyre pointed out and made an adjustment to the conclusion.

The question now for us rational thinking people is IF that was the only issue or are there more that have yet to be discovered due to the lack of proper independent peer review.

@beowulfe
"vigerously"

Actually, it's "vigorously". But other than that, great posts!




Science is not
Many, including people calling themselves scientists, are losing their way in the global warming debate. Science is NOT and never has been about consensus. Science is about skeptcism, challenging the consensuse, and testing the null hypothesis. Only once a given hypothesis has been well tested, withstood challenges by skeptics and cynics does it then approach the grand title of Theory. Still even then theories cannot be left to muddle on without challenge.

I have played on the near periphery of the global warming debate for several decades now. I didn't get involved until suddenly any scientist who called question to the data, to the analysis, to the model assumptions, or to what some were suddenly deciding was fact, were personally attacked by the political left that I said enough was enoug. I know good scientists today, that believe the temperature trend in the earth's climate is up yet who question models, analysis and data. They will not speak out because of the political climate, especially from the left.

Greaaat......
Head of NASA is a lying KOS head and we throw how much money at them????

"Real scientists"
I am a physicist, a "real" scientist, and I know that in any scientific endeavour one simply DOES NOT alter the data or experimental technique. To do so is no different than the mishandling of evidence by police, and leads to rejection of entire studies. Similarly mishandling of evidence leads to cases being thrown from court.

If NASA altered their data or their methodology then their entire study is tainted and should be rejected. Certainly there should be no subsequent work performed giving any credibility whatsoever to their findings.

See, "real scientists" do dissent with AGW.

*raises his hand and waves*

Apologie to another scientist
who got no respect due to his beliefs in God:

"Die Naturwissenschaft ohne Religion ist lahm, die Religion ohne Naturwissenschaft ist blind”

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

-Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

Skeptic Monster
Debra Saunders had an article on August 11th, “Paralyzing Fog of Uncertainty on Climate”, where she asked why the skeptics of global warming are dismissed without due consideration for scientific disagreement. Rather than simply allowing them to present their arguments, the eco-fascists degrade their assertions as “venal or nutty”.

The comments on that thread went on for over two an half days. Coo-Coo-Little’s cousins like Phylo Se Fiser, sentido, lilly and Jestak all came to parade. Now Ms. Carpenter gives an actual statistician who calls the question and where are their scurrilous attacks?

In that same thread one poster, MyOpine linked to an article, “Global Warming Skeptics Advance, Says Inhofe”:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200708/CUL20070803a.html

,that illustrated very well what government sponsored rhetoric masquerading as settled science will cause agency directors to do to keep their global threat alive. Marlo Lewis (Global Warming Critic) after writing about Martin Eckhart (President, American Council on Renewable Energy) received in an email from him: "It is my intention to destroy your career as a liar. If you produce one more editorial against climate change, I will launch a campaign against your professional integrity. I will call you a liar and charlatan to the Harvard community of which you and I are members. I will call you out as a man who has been bought by Corporate America.”

So much for scientific acumen, get out your pitch forks and shovels, a skeptic monster is loose and threatening town folk.


warm it up
I don't care if the world is warming. It's cold here in Montana most of the time. In fact there were glaciers covering this entire country thousands of years ago. All you global warming hypocrites, move to the eqator, you are taking up glacier habitat. Global warming isn't so bad is it? If it weren't for global warming there would be no USA. Why can't the liberals ever see anything positively? Global warming opens up more country to settle on, to grow food on. What a disaster for the liberals. And about the flooding, what happens to the water level in a glass of water when the ice in it melts? If liberals thought, there wouldn't be any liberals.

Left Wing Religious Fanatics
It has been clear for some time that Liberalism is a religion.

Rob, you point out the very real fact that these religionists of the Left are worse than any Inquisitors. Back in the day, Torquemada was able to bring charges against his enemies and make them swear allegiances but he never had the power to control the world economy. His little torture sessions didn't throw whole economies into chaos.

The modern Left, having developed their own religion of fascistic socialism (fevered nationalism combined with jack-booted government regulation) has no long history of debate or criticism such as other religions have had (which is why there are no longer any Torquemadas around). It has risen to power and acceptance in some quarters only recently and without debate of any significance. Certainly there has been no serious reform of the religion of modern Liberalism - even though it is long overdue. AGW is a sacrament of the Left but how long has it been around? Just a few years?

Not only is there serious debate about whether warming is even happening on any kind of significant level (natural or otherwise) but there is ZERO proof that it is anthropogenic. Furthermore, there is ZERO proof that even if the globe was warming and such warming was manmade, that it is even a BAD THING!

So this religion already has three major strikes against a central tenant and we're just getting started. What is amazing is that people like Bigg Dogg and Phylo have accepted the gospel of Al "Torquemada" Gore so completely as to have ignored out the wisdom of Einstein, as quoted just above.

Nanuq...
... from the North, I presume?

Excellent post.

You are now a full-fledged member of the RWHA - aka, the "Right Wing Hack Association".

Big Dawg
"The right deserves the tag "Not Scientific" - they bring the bible into the lab and expect respect."

I went to Phylo's site. I read the e-mails from Hansen. One states "Make no doubt, however, if tipping points are passed, if we, in effect, destroy Creation..."

The capital C, by the way, is his. This is also a largely "biblical" view of things. Capital C Creation is usually attributed to God. He didn't say the Earth, or Gaia, or even Nature.

While Hansen certainly deserves very little respect, I don't think that you will dismiss him on this one issue, will you?

Primus 54
Belated reply. (I've been doing the pre-weekend errands this AM.)

Thanks for the kudos, yet again. I'm still debating (with myself) doing a blog. Mainly due to the fact that (as you may have noticed here), I'm better at replying and (often) debunking than putting forward my own arguments.

Besides, anyone who wants to know where my arguments come from can get them better, and unvarnished, from reading Robert Heinlein, E.E. "Doc" Smith, H. Beam Piper, and more recent writers like David Weber and John Ringo.

Thanks again.


cheers

eon

TV watching causes AGW
Here is how we know watching television causes AGW:

Planet has seen rapid increase in warming in the last 50 years. ("Rapid" being about a third of a degree centigrade).

During that time, television viewership has increased globally.

Ergo, television viewing causes AGW.

This is the kind of thinking that passes for scientific reasoning on the Left.

People go outside and notice it is hot in August and all of the sudden, driving cars is at fault.

Well, there are thousands of other things that have seen increased usage in the last 50 years and by the logic of the AGW fanbois, any one of them could be at fault. The thing is, banning the use of those things doesn't require globally mandated socialism.

Personally, I'm with Pinto man. I WISH there was a way to raise the temperature of the earth about 10 degrees. We would all be MUCH better off for it. Remember, such an increase would be mostly experienced at night and during the winter; times when such increased warmth would reduce the use of energy and would improve growing seasons.

But the Left would never want there to be less energy usage or more food for the starving masses. Can't have that.


Phylo
You certainly don't live up to your name. Philosophizer? I don't think so. If so, you wouldn't throw around things like this: "So how about providing sources to back up all of your claims. If they come from right wing hacks, I will naturally question their veracity."

You would know that you have violated one of the tenants of philosophy.

Anyway, your promise that you won't be able to respond is true to form. Frankly, I was surprised to see a second post from you, after dropping off your initial dung ball. A true "philosophizer" would stay around to discuss things rationally. A true philosopher would strive for consistency in thought and deed.

inkling
I would also like to see you get a blog. Just do more than I do. Personally, I enjoy interacting with people better then posting things blindly.

I guess I'm just a Reactionary.

Global warming is a realestate scam
I am buying up all the land I can get in Canada. Thanks AL

Funny
I can just see Al Gore sitting in his tightie-whities, rocking back and forth dribbling about carbon offsets as his global warming scam comes unravelled around him.

He shouldn't worry, he has plenty of idiots like assachusetts liberal to follow him into the moron hall of fame....

Drive by idiocy
"as the wood chips in your playgrounds spontaneously combust in the summer sun."

A. If the sun is causing the chips to combust then they are not igniting "spontaneously".

B. Wood chips combust at 451°F (233°C).

If chips in the south are igniting at 100°F then the explanations would be either a flame or spontaneous combustion since the atmospheric heat would not be cause.

/explanation to someone who is not interested in science.

By the way, MassLib, how long have they been calling it Hotlanta?

Clue: even in the 70s when scientists were predicting global cooling.

We have been arguing this
scam now for the better part of a year and sometimes it is good to go back and refresh the basics. At the heart of this debate are two things. The advocates state that "the broad consensus among scientists is that it is occurring and it is driven by man-made effects".

Well let's look at that. A scientist is one who follows the scientific method in establishing facts. The scientific method has four steps
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

Based on what I have seen lately they haven't even done step 1 yet.

A Steaming Pile
The United States takes up a small fraction (4 percent?) of the earth's surface. As Dr. Hanson said concerning the revised data, “The effect on global temperature was of order one-thousandth of a degree, so the corrected and uncorrected curves [on global data] are indistinguishable.” Ms. Carpenter's article is part of a seemingly endless attempt by conservative dead-enders (pardon the redundancy) to grasp at straws in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence concerning the reality and seriousness of climate change.

Over and over, I see the attempts to ignore the reality that the vast majority of world's climate scientists are in basic agreement with Hansen. Conservatives would rather highlight the few who are not; focus on Al Gore or Hollywood celebrities who happen to take the majority seriously; look for other instances of climate change in history (as if past natural patterns have anything to do with the massive additional impact of human CO2 use over the past 150 years); talk about how expensive it would be to move to a sustainable energy future (while ignoring the economic opportunities and the national security benefits that would come with the change); and claim that "alarmists" are trying to move us all toward socialism.

It's all a steaming pile of you-know-what, and it's about time conservatives asked themselves what it is about their ideology and world view that makes them so desperate to deny overwhelming evidence gathered and disseminated by people far more qualified to comment on climate change than they are.

@Vic
The thing is Vic, you are describing the Scientific Method.

As I mentioned earlier, this Method was developed by a Bible believing Christian, Sir Francis Bacon. Given that he brought the Bible into his lab, he is not respected by the Left and therefore, his notions about Observation/Formulation/Hypothesis/Performance are therefore worthy of complete dismissal.

The NEW scientific method as practiced by the left is:

1. Determine next step in advancing political ideology.
2. Identify proxy that can be exploited to advance this next step.
3. Assert that proxy (in this case AGW) is real.
4. Fabricate evidence to back-up assertion.
5. Threaten into silence anyone who criticizes evidence.
6. When #5 fails, call them "deniers".

It's really simple
If the evidence of glo-bull warming is found in the shrinking of the ice caps, and glo-bull warming is obviously man-made from our SUVs and such, then why are the ice caps on MARS shrinking more rapidly than those on Earth?

Overwhelming evidence?
"... to grasp at straws in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence concerning the reality and seriousness of climate change. "

JohninOregon, can you give us just ONE piece of said evidence? I notice that you managed to avoid including that the evidence even implicates MAN in the "reality and seriousness of climate change". Which is good, at least you are honest enough to leave out that meme.

But still, despite the fact that you live in one of the most beautiful parts of the world, you don't just get to come on here and ignore all of the critiques of your position posted so far and throw insults around without something to back up your position. If the evidence is so "overwhelming" you should have NO problem providing some of it to us.



One more thing
To JohninOregon:

Without "serious climate change" in the past 600 years, a great deal of the Northwest would still be under a glacier right now.

Nasa
Has Nasa become to climate data what Enron was to book keeping?

Hansen and Enron
I've got serious problems with NASA scientist James Hansen. In the 1990's he was put on a 'blue ribbon commission' by Enron to push global warming to the former Clinton administration in order to set up carbon credit trading and profit from it.

The mechanism for this was the S. 547, "Credit for Voluntary Reductions Act" which would give credits to energy projects fueled by natural gas and similar clean fuels, natural gas of course being a core business of Enron.

In turn coal companies would be required to buy those credits from Enron, and as the market was limited, the price for those credits would be high. This would make coal less profitable, compared to say - natural gas. Shazam, Enron reaps windfall profits with both the credits and natural gas sales from new energy projects.

And of course the expert that Enron props up to give them credibility for their scheme is one James Hansen of NASA, who testified before Congress to try and get the bill passed. The same James Hansen who's now at the center of the controversy over fudged data, and who refuses to share his methodology. As a side note, during that testimony Hansen used the now discredited 'hockey stick' curve, so this is not the first instance of Hansen using questionable data to push AGW. With the Enron angle, I'd say he's very compromised.

Finally, in the irony of all ironies, we have Al Gore talking about the 'deniers' being shills for 'Big Oil,' while we have NASA scientist James Hansen, the lead proponent of global warming, shilling for Enron. Somebody needs to do a very in-depth, follow-the-money investigation into Hansen, Enron, Gore and all the players in the global warming scheme.

The Crawfish
Didn't you hear, that glo-bull warming on Earth is so severe that it's causing the ice caps on Mars to shrink. Just check with the expert, algrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Redhead: Oops
I'm not sure Phylo stands for Philosophizer like you think. I think he means Phyllo as in the dough used to make flakey pastries ... the emphasis here being on "flakey."

My boss wants us to watch "An Inconvenient Truth." I didn't object, though, because I love a good comedy.

largecaliber / Crawfish
Like shooting fish in a barrel...

Anyway, it's because Exxon/Mobil, in their evil pursuit of the Almighty Dollar, have introduced oil to the Martians, and now they are intent on killing them off, just so that they can make a few bucks. Until we figure out a way to tax Martian gas, they'll get away with it, too.

Religous LEFT
I like how you LIBS are always calling the REPS the RELIGOUS LEFT. I have allot of DEMS that I know personnally and everyone of them are RELIGOUS, They all go to church so if the REPS are the RELIGOUS LEFT then what is the RELIGOUS RIGHT called? Everytime that the LIBS are caught in the wrong they always blame the RELIGOUS LEFT.
If anyone believes AL(GLOBALL WARMING) GORE and his GREEN HOUSE project which is lining is pockets then you are not a RELIGOUS RIGHT you are a DUMB A##. I think that there are as many scientist that argues against globull warming as there are that agree with GLOBULL WARMING. I think all this is funny because have lived in ARIZONA and FLA and its nice to no that the rest of America is haveing to go thru the HEAT like we do. Ifr its hot dont get out of the kitchen BUY AN AIR CONDITIONER. BY the way if the TEMP has only went up an 1/4 of a degree you better not come to FLA because you will really be whining.

@largecaliber
People have short memories regarding NASA "research". A while back they were promoting the ozone hole mythology and were spending billions of dollars of tax payer money to send up shuttle missions to study it.

Of course, they already had evidence that they, themselves collected 50 years ago that showed a thinning of the ozone hole over the Antarctic region happens on a routine basis. This early data was collected before the introduction of CFCs which were later being blamed for the ozone depletion.

Turns out, the thinning is cyclical (every 11 years) and is not tied to CFCs at all. But the damage was done. Billions of dollars spent on unnecessary shuttle missions, billions more to ban CFCs and retrofit refrigerant systems all over the country and for what? 11 years later Mr. Sun will go through another one of his cycles and the ozone layer will thin again. All that money wasted on a leftist fantasy, money that could have been used to fund a new bridge for Minneapolis.

If we haven't learned from the ozone hole hoax then we haven't yet learned that NASA is valueless as a source of objective scientific information. They need federal money just like all the pro AGW researchers need it. They are addicts and not to be trusted.




Mr. Hmm
I love the image of someone being doubled over with laughter in the middle of a large showing of AlBoortross's movie.

If you can pull it off, I'll give you a small percentage out of the CASH funds recieved to date
http://redhead.townhall.com/g/ff083ba1-4c01-4156-9bba-c7cd00b7c497

Not exactly Big Oil, I know, but every little bit helps.

Hemi-Cuda
The image that you just painted in my mind of algrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr in tighty-whities, is that of an albino Wooly Mammoth in a white rubberband. lol

"Tenants"
Re: Beeblebrox, 11:36 AM, and Redhead, 11:55 AM.

"tenets." Not "tenants." Leftist philosophers don't rent space, they're squatters.

Otherwise, great posts, both of you.

Please post some of that Overwhelming...
...Evidence, will you, johninoregon?

In the meantime, here's an interesting little read from a modeler who works for the Australian Carbon Office, concerning his view of the "overwhelming evidence" that humans are causing global climate change. You might find it interesting, especially the part where he describes the "gravy train" he and his fellow scientists have been enjoying since the 1990s.

http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/files/D-Evans2007.pdf

You might also want to take a gander at Lawrence Solomon's "Denier's Series," over at the Canadian Financial Post. Solomon, while still convinced of the alleged "consensus" regarding AGW, set out to profile fairly the scientists who still held out against the majority. Now, 20+ profiles later, he no longer accepts the claim that there's a consensus among scientists; he's spent months interviewing the top scientists in their fields, and has discovered that if anything, they're unified AGAINST the AGW view.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=c47c1209-233b-412c-b6d1-5c755457a8af

inkling
Ten ants is close to what leftist philophers are, but pi $$ ants is spot on.

largecaliber
LOL

But uncle Al is more like a big pasty hairless ape...

Johninoregan
It's a steaming pile all right. A pile of the stuff that organic farms use for fertilizer.

I will vote for every piece of Globall Warming regulation that YOU personally will pay for.

How about that? You pay for it out of YOUR pocket or are you the same type of hypocrite as Albore. Fly all over the world, live in a 10,000 sq ft house, drive gas guzzling limos and in short use 100 times the energy that the average American uses. And the average American is supposed to be a glutton.

Beeblebrox
I guess we would call that "Hoaxitic Method" except that this is a fraudulent scam instead of a joke that is being played on someone.

johninoregon

This is real simple...

As soon as you mix the words "scientists" and "consensus" in the same sentence, you have lost any "scientific" argument... no matter what you'd like the "overwhelming evidence" to mean.

Science, by definition, is not valided by opinion. And "consensus" is just collated opinion.

nasa
Nasa,e.p.a. the pentagon plus many others are huge bureaucracies staffed by liberals with an agenda

Land on the Moon
Rob, is it on the hot side or the cold side. I hear its real cheap. The commutes a killer however. Say is that were Johnfromoregon is really from?
Nah, thats in this universe.

I just wonder
how long it's going to take for global warming to be cast aside like global cooling.

Hopefully it'll be before it causes irreparable harm to our economy and our way of life.

Hemi_Cuda:
We shouldn't be in any hurry to cast global warming aside as the "issue du jour" of the Left.

Once it is gone, they must manufacture another apocalypse to replace it and we'll have to go through this whole socialist argument all over again.

Beeblebrox re Ozone
I got rid of all my CFC and replaced everything spent a fortune in post tax dollars to do it. Oh wait, every 11 years, thats the same as the sun spot cycle! Nah what could the sun possibly have to do with thinjgs on earth. Probably all that methane outgassing from the Libs.

Massliberal
Just keep repeating "Climate change is a hoax. Global warming is a lie" as the wood chips in your playgrounds spontaneously combust in the summer sun."

Just keep repeating "John Kerry is a self-made man, Ted Kennedy didn't kill anyone, John Kerry doesn't look like Frankenstein's monster, Barney Frank loves women, John Kerry deserved all those medals, the roads in Massachusetts are great and the people here are friendly, the rest of the country isn't laughing at Massachusetts"




Primus54
I don't mind the arguing as long as it keeps them from actually following through with their crazy ideas of saving the planet.

Personally, I think we're nothing to this planet. When mother earth has had enough of us, she'll just shrug us off like so much dandruff, no matter how many carbon offsets we have....

Bigg Dogg
"Not quite - no one says that a scientist can't believe in God. But to allow God to dictate your science - that's voodoo, not science."

I agree completely....

In the year 2020
AZphil If I am around then it will be interesting to find out who's right. Maybe I better hold off buying that canadian land :-)

Lets Keep Global Warming
as caused by man. If it's caused by the sun, the socialist scientists will want a hugh government program to change the the rotation of the Earth, so that our planet spends more time on the dark side of the sun in order to cool off.

Another option would be to set a massive solar shade in space to keep the nasty global warming sun rays from over heating our earth. BTW those nasty sun rays are caused by Pres Bush and the conservative republicans. We got the sun mad at us and its only way to show its anger is to over heat the earth.

Liberals finally get what they want.
Proof that someone in the Bush Administration "lied" about something.

BUT....
Al Gore is behaving like some sort of prophet.

When he stated, "The debate is over", didn't that bother you?

I mean, when ever someone tells me I'm not allowed to discuss something, it doesn't pass the smell test, ya know?

johninoregon
Check it out everybody, another lib using an argument such as:

"...the vast majority of world's climate scientists are in basic agreement with Hansen"

"Vast majority", "Overwhelming majority", "Overwhelming evidence".

These are typical desperate lefty arguments when they don't have an argument.

See what happens when you listen to Al Gore?

Where's DA
Anybody seen DA lately? S/he is conspicuously absent in this thread. Maybe S/he is wising up. No, probably not, too much to hope for.

DJF
District Attorney??

From the climateprogress linki
Hansen: "Make no doubt, however, if tipping points are passed, if we, in effect, destroy Creation, passing on to our children, grandchildren, and the unborn a situation out of their control, the contrarians who work to deny and confuse will not be the principal culprits. The contrarians will be remembered as court jesters. There is no point to joust with court jesters. They will always be present. They will continue to entertain even if the Titanic begins to take on water. Their role and consequence is only as a diversion from what is important."

If if if if if....

No doubt, he doesn't sound very scientific here. I expect something else of an expert on the gov't payroll. More metaphors mean a better sermon, I guess.

"And the unborn"? "And the unborn of the unborn of the unborn forever and ever, amen" he may as well go on and say.

By the way, if the jesters are so entertaining, why isn't Hansen laughing?



DFJ
Could "DA" also be the same person posting under the nom de guerre, "Learned Hand"?

Few here will disagree...
re Bigg Dogg, 2:15 PM:

"...no one says that a scientist can't believe in God. But to allow God to dictate your science - that's voodoo, not science."

Well, no, it's not voodoo unless your religion is Voodoo. But you're right. Beliefs can bias science.

"Nothing exists outside of our 3 dimensions" is also a belief; it comes from a philosophy called Materialism. That one can bias scientists, too.

And -- here's the key point -- the way you filter these things out of science is by REPLICABILITY, HYPOTHESIS TESTING, and PEER REVIEW.

You do NOT filter biases out by banning scientists with certain biases from participating in the debate. That's not science, that's bigotry.

You DO filter out biases by making everybody adhere to the process; and you do that by systematically refuting everything that does not adhere to the process.

So I maintain that my original point was correct: whoever attempts to exclude any person from engaging in the scientific debate on the basis of their beliefs, marks himself as a bigot, not a scientist.

I don't see what all of these Ecofreaks
are complaining about. If they are right, in a few decades the evil human beings will have destroyed the invironment and all of the evil humans will die. All that will be left is the cockroaches. Then the ecofreaks will have what they have always wanted, the elimination of evil man from the earth.

greenpeace
Wasn't there some bozo that wanted 2/3 of the world's population killed off?

How much more nuts do you have to get before the men with white coats and big nets come looking for you?

Funny coincidences
Funny how all the 'errors' the AGW believers are caufght in, are consistently skewed in one direction.

Funny how every time a "new study" trumpets alarming conclusions, we are exhorted to jump up & immediately do something costly & radical, NOW, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. BUT, if we instead wait a bit, the study is generally discredited on further examination, & the drastic responses are shown to be unnecessary.

Funny how few if any pols actually RUN for (re)election advocating doing specific things to "fight global warming." Al Gore ran for President in 2000, but hardly mentioned the subject, even though he'd championed it back in 1992.

Funny how all the 'skeptics' are accused of being in cahoots with Big Oil & Big Coal, but no one ever suspects that scientists, or those who pay their salaries, supposedly part of the 'consensus,' and supported by government & activist orgs, might have biases or corrupt motives, e.g. growing & centralizing government.

Funny how much everything they urge us to do now to 'fight global warming,' seems to echo leftist green-communist, anti-American-std-of-living, anti-free-enterprise, anti-property, stuff they were saying back in the late '60's almost 20 yrs before Dr. Hansen announced his theory?

Funny how the pop media keeps trying to convince us that science is done by having a select group of scientists, many not having expertise in the particular issue at hand, taking a vote on the issue. Logic & objective proof are not required.

Funny how neatly the anthrogenic "global warming" dogma they push rationalizes totalitarian world government, yet they never seem to seriously consider any alternative conclusions even when their arguments are shot down in flames.

@ inkling_revival
Yeah, saw that after I posted. Gave you a great line about Lefty philosophers though!

Oh, and I don't think "Phylo" has anything to do with being a philosopher (since philosophy is the search and study of wisdom) but rather, a character from one of the great 2 man stage plays/movies of all time, Sleuth (recently remade and to be released in November). Can't wait!




Strawman Bigg
"Not quite - no one says that a scientist can't believe in God. But to allow God to dictate your science - that's voodoo, not science."

And I didn't claim that any one did. Read your original post:

"The right deserves the tag "Not Scientific" - they bring the bible into the lab and expect respect. "

First of all, you hateful jerk, the "right" if hardly made up entirely of Bible thumping Christians.

Strike one against you.

Secondly, only a small percentage of Bible thumping Christians are Scientists (although probably there are more scientists who are Christians than Muslims or atheists).

Strike two against you.

Thirdly, I doubt that most of those Bible thumping Christian scientists bring their Bible into the "lab".

Strike three. You're out.

Clearly you intended to denigrate the "right" and Christians with your slur. However, I proved that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about and did so with a sampling of famous Bible believing scientists.

Why don't you simply admit that by and large, Christians invented modern science and save yourself from further disgrace?



Sleuth
Beeblebrox wrote: "I don't think "Phylo" has anything to do with being a philosopher (since philosophy is the search and study of wisdom) but rather, a character from one of the great 2 man stage plays/movies of all time, Sleuth (recently remade and to be released in November)."

They're remaking Sleuth? Who's in it?? Darn, they never even put the original (Olivier/Caine) on DVD; you can't find the doggone thing anywhere.

I'm with you, that's a great play, hope the remake is good.

I had no clue what Phylo's nickname signified. Thanks for educating me.

Sleuth, again
I just checked IMDB. Oh, my freakin' goodness, Michael Caine's in it again, this time the older role. What a sweet touch! And Jude Law will be perfect. Directed by Kenneth Brannaugh. Wow. I'm looking forward to this.

Thanks for the heads-up.


Bman
Sen. John Kerry served in Vietnam?

Huh... thought I'd heard that before, but wasn't clear on it -- you know -- his media exposure in 2004 was so miniscule and all.

The debate is over
Massliberal, johninoregon and phylo say the vast scientific consenus is that global warming is manmade enough said, end of story.

Poll
How many here think AGW is a hoax and leftists eco-freaks are mentally imbalanced? Do we have a consensus? Sometimes they are true!

GW debate
This was more fun when the liberals would actually come back and debate. Now a few come by to drop off a dung ball and run.

I've learned a lot from the debates at Townhall, truly one of the best political sites on the web. Maybe if they wait a few months to post another GW article, some greenie will stay to play. I strongly dislike (wouldn't want to get accused of hate speech) hit and run posters. Could be an acknowledgement that their whole argument is crumbling around them, though.

GLOBAL FREEZING
I remember in the 70's we had GLOBALL FREEZING thats when the CLEAN AIR ACT was passed. Remember if we clean all the smog and unwanted crap out of our skies that we would be able to have the sun get thru better to heat the planet. Well looks like to me we did a better damn good job at cleaning up the smog and crap because it sure is hot now. Th9is is just another LIB hoaks to get the people feeling sorry for something so they can enact another BIG GOVERNMENT project to take away more of the WORKING PEOPLES money

sammy hagar
By 2020, i think people will realize this is a crock.

Bigg Dogg
Actually it was never proven who destroyed the library.

The 3 suspects were Julius Caesar, Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and Caliph Omar of Damascus.

Extent of the consensus
Okay, preface any and all discussion about "scientific consensus" with this quote from Galileo:

"In matters of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth as much as the humble reasoning of a single individual."

But the extent of the "scientific consensus" is really quite limited. Here it is:

1. CO2 is the second most important greenhouse gas. Increased CO2 in the atmosphere will tend to warm the planet.

2. The planet has warmed by around 0.6 degrees Centigrade over the last century.

AND THAT IS THE EXTENT OF THE MUCH-TRUMPETED "CONSENSUS". Some scientists working in the field say all of the temperature rise is due to human-induced CO2; a few say that NONE of the temperature rise is due to human-induced CO2; most will cautiously say some of it is.

But it gets even worse. Most of the scary scenarios about large rises in temperature come from computer models, NOT reality. These models are large and complex programs, which have many opportunities for the "fudge factors" someone above mentioned to be stuck in them. This may account for why the last UN-backed IPCC report had a LARGER spread of model predictions than the previous one. This most recent IPCC report gave a range of increased temperatures in 2100 of 1.1 degree C to 6.4 degrees C. The previous IPCC report gave a range of 1.4 - 5.8 degrees. In other words, with 5 more years of reasearch, and billions more spent on computer models, the science has become LESS CERTAIN instead of MORE CERTAIN.

Also, to correct an error somebody made--James Hansen is the director of the Goddard Institute of Space Sciences, a unit within NASA. He is not the director of NASA itself. I have personally known NASA scientists who think that any man-made global warming will be quite mild!

To: Bigg Dogg
Hey, you're wrong about the burning of the Alexandria Library being done by Christians.

In fact, the library was not lost in one big fire, but several. There was one in about 88 BC, then a part of the library (40000 books, according to the Roman writer Seneca), was burned when Julius Caesar was fighting a civil war in Egypt. Most of the city of Alexandria, including the library, was burned by the Roman emperor Aurelian in the year 273 AD as part of his suppression of Queen Zenobia's revolt.
A smaller part of the library (less than 1/12 the size) may have survived. The Christian religion was not made the official religion of Rome until more than 100 years later. So, you're wrong.

What???
EllisWyatt
>>Even his use of the financial audit meme is >>fraudulent since financial audits don’t just >>cherry-pick small parts of a company’s >>operations.

Actually, that is exactly what financial audits do. Or do you suppose that auditors have super computers that can process a years worth of activity over the next logn weekend.

Sorry, they just sample pieces of the overall process and look for inaccuacies or inadequate controls.

That sounds like the sort of activity the Steve McIntyre was performing, which Hansen was not. Steve provides a valuable service and does it on his own dime.

Badboy
The following site explains it pretty good.

http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

methan and NO2 are much stronger than CO2 but there is a lot more CO2 in the air. However, none of those has the amount that water vapor has because there is a LOT of that in the air. Water vapor accounts for 95% of the effect. This is why the contribution from man is so small. The next biggest is CO2 but not all CO2 is manmade.

ZB2
What we need is new labels for things like computer simulations. As Michael Crichton put it;

"If you read some authors who say, 'We find that anthropogenic greenhouse gases and sulphates have had a detectable influence on sea-level pressure' it sounds like they went into the world and measured something. Actually, they just ran a simulation. They talk as if simulations were real-world data. They're not. That's a problem that has to be fixed. I favor a stamp: WARNING: COMPUTER SIMULATION- MAY BE ERRONEOUS AND UNVERIFIABLE. Like on cigarettes. Put the same stamp on newspaper articles, and in the corner of newscasts. WARNING: SPECULATION- MAY BE FACT-FREE. Can you see that peppered all over the front pages?"

-State of Fear, p.622

Computers are great for "simulating" things, but the results need to be taken with a grain of salt. I often play the old "War of The Worlds" strategy game on my PC. This doesn't mean I expect to see Martians rampaging through Middlesex or the Weald of Kent anytime soon.

cheers

eon

James Hansen is a Fraud
I suspect that Michael Crichton had James Hansen in mind as one of the looney, but dangerous, global warming extremists in his book, "State of Fear". NASA would be better off without Hansen, and I, for one, would support the firing of this Ward Churchill look-alike.

Liberal Junk Science
johninoregon, like Al Gore, believes that if the majority of scientists (and we don't even know that) "believe" something then it is true. I am sorry, but science doesn't work like that. The results of experiments show you the truth, not consesus of something.

The majority of scientists in the 1490's believed the Earth was flat. Was it true? Otnay.
(That's piglatin to you libs).

There is absolutely no evidence that man's activity causes global warming. It could be the Sun, it could be a certain cycle of the Earth's rotation. Remember the Small Ice Age? 1300 to 1850 AD. Who knows but we could be on the outer fringe of it's warming trend.

The only overwhelming evidence we have is that Gore is a blowhard.

Bigg Dogg writes that scientists cannot have God dictate their scientific results. They don't. By the same token, scientists can't just make up things, that's also voodoo, not science. You cannot mix politics and science. It's all about a money trail on the liberal/activists part. They will say anything to get government money.

One other thing that is
missing from the overall discussion is a healthy dose of common sense. When one discusses the "greenhouse effect" one must think about what that is. The gasses surrounding the earth allow the sun's rays to pennetrate the atmosphere and then trap some of that heat within the atmosphere. That presupposes two things; first that the SUN is actually what delivers the heat and that the atmospheric gasses are what traps it. The greenies wish to discuss nothing but gasses, and on top of that, they only want to discuss ONE gas.

This is not science and it is not common sense.

Lib posters attack messenger
So now that McIntyre has exposed Hansen as afraud, what does the left do? Well, attack McIntyre of course.

Why should they take an objective look at the revised "evidence" when it fits their politicis much better to attack McIntyre?

Why should they question Hansen's ethics or motivation (not to mention his competence) when it suits their agenda much better to complain about the attention Hansen is getting in the conservative media? BTW - has anyone in the liberal media even reported this?

THIS is serious: Icebergs are melting

Oh wait, that was 1922..............

John McCaslin’s column
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnMcCaslin/2007/08/17/piltdown_man?page=full&comments=true

“…Washington resident John Lockwood, who while conducting research at the Library of Congress came across an intriguing Page 2 headline in the Nov. 2, 1922 edition of The Washington Post: 'Arctic Ocean Getting Warm; Seals Vanish and Icebergs Melt.’”

“The story told how 'great masses of ice have now been replaced by moraines of earth and stones," and "at many points well-known glaciers have entirely disappeared.’"

Gee, looks like algore and his "GloBull Warmies" missed out on that one.... LOL



AGW
This issue is dying a very painful death. Even more foul ups came out today about NASA's incorrect info. Wonder what all the chicken little's are gonna do when the sky doesn't fall?

I could use a little global warming since my tomatoes are not ripening the way they should because it hasn't been hot enough!

Powerful evidence-oops I mean trivia
It is astonishing how fast a "fact" used as "powerful evidence" that man is causing GW becomes "irrelevant trivia".

The 2005 hurricane season was proof of the effects CO2 was having on weather. Then 2006-7 were mild hurricane seasons, which proves nothing: it would be specious reasoning to extrapolate a specific weather event to apply to the climate in general. Hmmm.

The fact that the ice core samples showed a correlation between CO2 and temperature was devastating proof of that CO2 was the culprit. Then someone pointed out that CO2 actually lagged temperature on that graph, which was then declared "irrelevant".

Nine of the last ten years were the hottest ever recorded, which was practically shouted from the rooftops as proof positive that we are headed down the road to doomsday. Now that we know that is false, the scientists are now referring to temperature data as "trivia".

What exactly is the evidence for global warming again? Maybe their hiding it somewhere in the back with all those "transitional fossils" that "prove" evolution.


Rob
That's OUR Tigers my friend.

New theory: The Earth's climate never changes, only our perception of it.

Proof: I'm cold while my wife is hot. Yet our internal temperature sensors are a mere 2 meters apart from each other.

Thanks to my undisclosed algor-ithym, I conclude that I must throw out my wife's readings as inaccurate. Her algor-ithym leads her to throw out my readings.

A sample of a gazillion U.S. homes resulted in the same data 100% of the time for couples in their late 40's & up. He's cold, she's hot.

Obvious conclusion, both of us are wrong and we are incapable of accuately measuring temperature.


Shame on U Republicans LOVE conspiracies
If there is any doubt that republicans have prostituted them self to oil and energy companies this artical should prove it.

Yes its a conspiracy to show what 99% of the world believes and 80% of America. We are getting hotter and green house gases are the cause. Debate about where the gases come from or what to do, but its getting hotter. Don't lie to confuse the weak minded easily fooled.

We need to conserve energy, TEMP OR NOT, or we will be running out of it. More correctly there is a tipping point, where demand will out strip supply, which is near. Supplies/production will decrease and demand will increase. FACT (regardless of temp)


As far as climate change? Yea why talk care of the planet and worry about 2 or 3 generations from now. Screw them. That is what a Christians would do. And we know how christian and holly all republicans are and how THEY and only THEY are right and have all the good ideas.

IT IS EVIL TO CARRY THE WATER FOR OIL COMPANIES. Fine disagree about WHAT TO DO, but no serious scientist doubts that in the last 100's and thousands of years (not 70) temps have increased and a SHARP spike occurred with the industrial revolution and correlates with carbon emissions.

Listen to FOX news and Amanda. I say you all are either foolish or liars for evil and greedy purposes. I KNOW YOU HATE Democrats and Gore, I KNOW I KNOW, but are you SO immature and hateful that this would make you lie? Who is paying you?

Apparently its enough to lie so......shame on you.

As with most deeply held
liberal beliefs - proven wrong!

Rocker writes Evidences abound
Wing nuts -- keep burying your heads in the hand in spite of abundant evidence.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070817/ap_on_sc/low_ice

Ho, Ho Ho, where will Santa go?
Rocker, The majority of scientists in total "consensus" are suspect at best.

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one's self in the ranks of the insane."

I'm keeping my "head out of my hand" and paying attention to scientific, repeatable proof. It probably is getting warmer but "wo-man" is not responsible just old Sol.

From a non-Chrisitan
"and a SHARP spike occurred with the industrial revolution and correlates with carbon emissions."

...and then there was that little drop in the 1940's-1970's that had the alarmists screaming "ice age"--right in the middle of the carbon emissions boom.

Jetpilot, you are so passionate, right in there with the School of Hansen but the folks on this site know their science--well, a lot of them do--and they like comments to be ad rem, not ad hominem. If climate science were easy to grasp then the scientists themselves wouldn't be discussing it and countering each other with study after study.

Try the Grist people you can vent there with believers.




Re: Hansen & Enron
Re: Hansen & Enron

Thanks - for this info.

Can you confirm the notion that the GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies), that Hansen is the director of, is not a NASA facility at all but a contrivance to funnel tax money through Columbia University to support Hansen?



From a wingnut.Info for inquiring minds
"Why have we seen such a rapid loss of sea ice in the summer of 2007? A major cause is unusually clear-sky conditions in the months of June and July. Figure 3 is a contour map of sea-level pressure averaged for June and July. High pressure dominated the central Arctic Ocean during this period, promoting very sunny conditions just at the time the sun is highest in the sky over the far north. This led to an unusually high amount of solar energy being pumped onto the Arctic ice surface, accelerating the melting process. Satellite data show that skies over the Beaufort Sea were clear or mostly clear for 43 of the 55 days between June 1 and July 23, 2007.

The region over Siberia experienced fairly low pressure during the same time period. Winds blow clockwise around high-pressure areas and anticlockwise around low-pressure areas. The combination of high- and low-pressure areas thus fostered fairly strong winds over coastal Siberia that were partly from the south, pumping warm air into the region and also contributing to a warming Arctic. At the same time, these winds from the south acted to push ice away from the coast and into the central Arctic Ocean, further reducing ice extent in the coastal areas." ---NSIDC

Bigg Dogg misses the point - Again
"Like Einstein? Don't be a dope, sir."

Bigg Dogg, do you know what a non sequitur is? If not, reread your post on Einstein, dopes, and the burning of the Alexandrian library.

Three totally non related issues tacked together in a single obtuse post. Congratulations are in order for besting Robert in delivering one of the most idiotic postings so far on TH.

1. I never said Einstein was a Christian. You inferred it but I can't help it if you lack nuanced thinking. TIP: Read a post before responding to it.

2. Calling someone a "dope" while demonstrating your own hyper-idiocy is not the best form. The least you could do if you are going to call someone stupid is to point out WHY.

3. Even IF Christians had had something to do with the burning of the Alexandrian library, the notion that this set back science by "1000 years" is moronic on its face. In fact, you just pulled that number out of your posterior.

As I proved in an earlier post, the fathers of science were all Bible-believers. None of them needed the library of Alexandria to found their areas of discipline because they had the Bible. If you are saying that a Sir Francis Bacon would have come along in 561 AD and developed the scientific method well fine, it still would have been a Christian who developed it.

Remember, these founders were motivated by the Bible and some, like Maury, actually took their inspiration for specific scientific theories from its pages.

Einstein's beliefs regarding God and science stand on their own. Furthermore, it is indisputable that he based his theories on the Christian scientists who came before him (like Newton and Joule.)

But Bigg Dogg, keep posting. You're to this discussion group what Alan Colmes is to Fox News. The liberal commentator determined to make liberalism look foolish.

Jet Pilot
NASA changed its data, because they were WRONG. They do not work for an oil company, and did everything they could to avoid admitting the were wrong, but the facts were there. This is not politics, it is science, which is cruel to people who fall in love with their theories.

CORRELATION DOES NOT PROVE CAUSALITY!!! This is one of the first things they teach you when you start studying statistical analysis. Yes, it has gotten a bit warmer since the start of the Industrial Revolution, but in the Ice Core samples it was clearly proven that CO2 does not lead temperature it lags. This is not a political statement, it is data from proponents of the CO2 model for Global Warming. Get out a ruler and check it yourself.

Whether you believe that NASA has a vested interest in covering up the data that contradicts the official orthodoxy on GW, you cannot deny the fact that top climate scientists were proven wrong by a blogger. This should give you reason to question the "experts" and at least reduce the presumption of good faith on their part.

Truth in Science
As a science major, let me try to educate you all. The science community as well as the general public agree that there was once an ice age. We know that the earth changed to a warmer climate all on its own, long before man was driving his big SUV! So we know for a FACT that the planet earth can and does change without the help/hurt of mankind.

Keeping this in mind a logical thinking person has to admit that the earth does change ( evolve ) on its own. Its not a far stretch to think that there will be periods when the planet will be warmer than other times.

Now we can discuss global warming. How much are we changing the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels? Its harder than you think to trust any measure of this when you consider that first you have to accurately factor ALL THE CHANGES the earth has everyday, on its own. Every tree that gets cut down or burned ( or newly planted ), everyday, makes a difference. Every volcano that spews hot gases and ash makes a difference. Natural gasses that escape from the ground make a difference. So you must first come up with accurate math for these daily changes FIRST before you add your own ( scientific? ) math as to how much pollution man is spewing everyday into our environment.

The point I am trying to make here is that even a novice to science can accurately blow many holes into the "Gore" environmental "theory" of global warming. And I have only begun to give the many variables that must be factored in.

Forget the politics and think about it with a open mind. You will soon discover that its not as easy and clear as it looks! Thats why we still have the science community working because we ( mankind ) still have allot to learn about this world and about ourselves!

bravemonk199
Great post, thanks for the clarity.

Of the research I've done thus far, there is not "for certain" evidence that anthropogenic co2 is the cause for global warming, it's just a hypothesis at this point.

If Gore, et.al. are so sure of their data, then they should be open to a free exchange of ideas/discussion on this in front of the world.

Bring your data; post it on the web for others to view(this is what science is about - other scientists should be able to replicate your data to your findings to either prove or disprove your hypothesis) and then let the debate begin.

It should be a strong RED FLAG that Gore, et.al. will NOT agree to such discussions for reasons that Horner and others have greatly pointed out.

Again, if you have nothing to worry about with regard to transparent evidence then you would have no issue presenting such to the world since you endeavor to affect the world financially, evolutionary, and industrially in massive dogma.

Let's agree
that the earth is warming and has been since the last ice age.

A previous post noted that entirely without the presence of man, the earth ended all the ice ages (maybe 3) and warmed itself. Long before SUVs or coal-fueled power plants or LA smog.

We have polar ices and are actually still in a ice age intermediary period. Most of earth's history, it has not had ice caps.

What triggers warm periods or ice ages is unknown.

That Venus suffers "greenhouse gas" heating is a supposition. That Jupiter may have briefly burned as a star is a theory. We don't know where the moon came from: it may have formed from the same material as the earth at the same time (but is evidently younger); it may have been "captured" by earth's gravity; it may have been gouged out of the Pacific basin by some passing monstrous asteroid or comet (catastrophic theory). We don't know where the moon came from. It is drifting ever farther away and could cause real disaster, as tides and seasons have developed based on the moon's influence. There is something really scary, but not about to affect us directly for gadzillions of years.

How did Christiantity get into the debate? My theory is that whenever the left wants to appeal to the right on some invented issue of "compasion," the left trots out Christ. "Christ wouldn't drive an SUV, yadda." My guess is Christ would've walked or hitchhiked and never owned a car, but I can't prove it, except he never owned or rode a horse in the N. Testament. But Christ wouldn't get involved in some pol. debate over sci. issues. He said render unto Ceasar what is Caesar's. His only recorded overt act against a possible gov't institution was his anger at the temple money lenders.


more warming
The left wants global warming as a hammer to gut the ec. of the West, Am. in particular, because as Hillary has said, those profits belong to her to distribute through taxes to her favorite causes.

Al Gore wants to be able to tell you when and how to heat your house, when you can buy a plane ticket for vacation, if you can use air cond., etc. And he and his ilk want to tax all energy production: oil co.'s, nat. gas, gasoline, heating and airplane fuel, electricity, cars, bus and train fares, a good way to cripple business production and also an excellent way to cut general revenues and increase the deficit.


well whatever
you say they did end up fixing the data so i think that it may not have been nasa as a whole doing this just a select few who like the idea of man made climate change

Seems...

I think the Liberal-progressive-idealists want us to change our ways, with good intention. Some idealists really want a better society. And I can't condemn someone who means well.

These folks are missing one of the Republican points.

Hillary and Obama are not idealists. They are self-serving politicians. The have only one ideal, getting elected. They are buying into Global Warming, not for the truth or lack there of. They are buying votes, not carbon offsets.

Preferred "data"
Hansen wanted the numbers to support his position as an "anti-establishment" GW-protester up against the big-bad gov't that was somehow suppressing him.

Since he's been a star of the AWB, I don't know how he could play the victim role, but he did, and all the MSM were glad to support him in his oppression.

AGB should take a hit over this in the US, but my guess is a venue like The NYTimes will run it, if at all, somewhere on the back inner pages of "Cooking" or "Gardening," the way it ran the plot against JFK airport buried in the Metro section because it wasn't really creditible.

Russia helps keep hoax alive
I find it interesting that Russia, who has absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by decreased global oil consumption, has recently staked their claim to mineral and energy exploration rights under the polar ice cap. Didn’t they hear that global warming was a hoax? That the melting icecap is a cleverly conceived and perpetrated ruse? Oh, that’s right,they too are part of the global warming conspiracy and are willing to spend their time and resources to make pointless gestures to keep the fraud alive, even when doing so could ultimately be to their own financial ruin. Now that's dedication!


bravemonk199
Your arguments are weak. For instance, we know that a natural event such as lightening can strike your home and burn it down. Does that make it any less consequential than if it was actually your neighbor that torched your house?
We know global warming has happened naturally in the past. Name anyone who denies that. In fact the sea level has risen around 400 feet in the last 18,000 years. The major difference now and then is that now there are trillions of dollars worth of infrastructure and hundreds of millions of humans inhabiting extremely vulnerable coastal regions.
So global warming, regardless of cause, should be an important topic of scientific study.
And if it turns out scientists conclude man is indeed making conditions worse and that we can possibly do something about it, then we should act.

Also, it is virtually impossible to account for every variable when making predictions on complex systems. Scientists purposely strive to come up with models with the fewest number of necessary variables that will accurately mimic the aggregate behavior of all known and unknown variables in what they are observing. Predictive models do not have to be perfect or all encompassing in order to provide beneficial insight to scientists, and to suggest as much is disingenuous.

The polar ice caps
will decrease and increase at their own rates. Ice berg formation was not unusually elevated as predicted. A "sea" at the "north pole" is not a new development. There is more ice in the Arctic this year than there was in 1922.

What does Russia know?
For all we know, Russia has bought into the AGW hoax just like you and the rest of the Sheeple have.

Just because someone acts on their ignorance does not mean that their actions are proof they know something.

BTW, you are aware that the Russian science community doesn't believe that oil is a fossil fuel right? They drill where they believe there are large magma-producing oil deposits.

globull warming
the biggest hoax being perpetuated by these adherents to alldull is that those who question his views somehow want to destroy to the envirionment. I have never heard anyone advocate making the air or water quality worse. I have never heard anyone say we shouldn't conserve resources and that we should recylce. But yet alldull's acolytes would have everyone believe they will save the same planet that those who question the info as incomplete will destroy by our indifference. To question alldulls fake religion of global warming is actively seek to destroy the planet. All that many of us are saying is that the investigation is on-going, and that there is no one best solution to the problem. But the real difficulty is convincing the kos type crowds that solutions are long term and anything tried will take years to impliment and we know they lack the patience for long term solutions. Unless of course we all stop living. But when some wack job in england tells us that exercise is destroying the environment because increased exercise requires more food that requires more energy one has to wonder about the thought processes of the globull warming crowd and their take on reality

NASA or NOAA
I have often wondered ever since the current global warming "debate" began; why is it that NASA Earth climate data is always quoated while the data from NOAA (the agency responcible for monitoring our climate(s)) is largly ignored? I have noticed that most real meteroligists don't believe in AGW and and are on the fence when it comes to global warming. They do of course believe in climate change because climates change constantly. Climates are regional or local phenomina i.e. Mediteranian, Arctic, Rain forest ect.

Sorry about the lack of citations but my mind retains experiences and ideas not pages and URLs.

KCDillon

No real point
... in responding to most of the C-AGW advocates on a basis of serious discussion.

As johninoregon's post comprehensively demonstrates, they are engaged in advertising. The recurring themes:

Everyone agrees

our product is the best

Experts agree

our product is the best

Your favorite celebrities

endorse our product

Those other guys' product

sucks

Join the cool crowd -- Buy Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming today!

Interesting read on sea levels
http://www.mruzik.com/SeaLevel.html

A quote from the article:

"In 2005, H.J. Zwally et al. published “Mass changes of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets” (2005, Journal of Glaciology 51: 509-527) which reported on extensive satellite radar altimetry of Greenland for the last 10.5 years and of Antarctica for the last 9 years using the European Remote-sensing Satellites ERS-1 and -2. After actual MEASUREMENTS, they discovered the Greenland Ice sheet was INCREASING in mass contributing to a DROP in sea levels at a rate of 1 inch every 847 years; and that the Antarctic Ice sheet was decreasing contributing to a RISE in sea level at a rate of 1 inch every 318 years. Considering both sources, the net projected change in sea level is a ONE INCH rise every 505 years due to the melting of glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica."

Actual measurements, folks.

Now, unlike the liberal "scientists" here, I'm not going to say this settles the issue. Continued study is needed. But actual measurements of the arctic ice sheets seem to show that we're in no danger of losing our ocean-view property anytime soon.

robert
You were supposed to leave the bandages on until next tuesday and stay away from handling sharp objects and keyboards until the doctors determined your dimentia was temporary in nature.

You probably don't remember saying in an earlier post that it was getting warmer. Did you forget about 1934 already too?

I could now state that it has been cooler since 1934 and have actual proof provided by Mr. Hanson (your tool).

Robert
Are you sitting down? Facing your monitor?

Good!

Look toward your right.

Do you see it?

The real world is over there.

Robert trolling...
Is that FOUR posts from Robert today that attempt to get a rise out of conservatives -- and change the subject from the article we're discussing -- by positing a loony comparison between a scientific question of global climate and an intelligence question regarding another nation's internal secrets?

What's the matter, Robert? Not getting enough attention today?

Intel is a science. Like God is a Zulu.
"Intel is a science" is one of the silliest comments I've heard on TH yet. You're clueless.

Give it a rest, Robert. This thread is about global climate change and the science and politics surrounding it. You're not going to goad me, or anybody else, into the argument you're clearly trying to pick.

Go pick your nose instead. It will yield so much more benefit for you, and won't annoy the rest of us so much.

Science has lost its way
I spend hours going over data from processes that are well known if not completely understood. Experiments are executed on many processes by operators as well as engineers which lead to terribly corrupted understandings.

You see, science requires rigor. It requires systematic and costly steps--costs some people don't want to pay. Short cuts are not allowed--but short cuts are taken. However, even when you do everthing right sometimes the data gets corrupted.

Science is so very narrow in applicability its almost a joke--but somehow people who use scientific equipment get the idea they are doing science.

Science requires 1) Observation which leads to 2) theory which leads to 3) a predictable controlled experiment which gets evaluated and if partially or not at all predictable the scientists needs to goto to step 1.)

Climatologists as well as Evolutionists live in a world where none of them can get past step 2. Therefore none of their theories can have any significant weight--uncertainties larger than the value change of interest preclude such experimentation.

It's just all grouping and association without rigor or experimentation...

Unfortunately, the hard sciences are not immune from data corruption for $...

You know--I opened my blinds this morning and observed the sun peaked over the mountaintops. My blinds must then control the sun! Let me write a "peer review" paper for my association of Blind Sun Watchers.

Anyone remember the Ozone Hole?
Thenty five years ago that was the great debate. It turned out to be much ado about nothing. The Ozone waxes and wanes with solar flares just as it did before R12 was banned, but it cost the citizens of the US billions of dollars to make a needless change to R134A.

It was a politically inspired hoax just as I believe Global warming is today and for the same reason. Environmental jingoism is the new home of the far left simply because the far left has a craving for power and they have found that they can get it through scare tactics.

Pretty much the same with DDT. Although mis-use may have some problems, Banning the use of DDT has cost millions of lives because of malaria. Rachel Carson should be so proud!

AWG Anyone?
After reading an article in a magazine over 20 years ago, I WAS an early believer in CO2 as a key driver in warming, I decided to learn more about it and had the good fortune of knowing a couple of emminent scientists who had been looking into the hypothisis. They believed that it was overblown. After doing some reading on my own became convinced that they were correct.

I am willing to go where the science leads, but I have some strong opinions that it will be shown that other factors are much more influential in climate change than CO2. Having said that, there is no question that climate change is in progress, as it always has been!

Can anyone explain why CO2 is thought by some to be a more important factor than water vapor (also a greenhouse gas) even though water vapor molecules are many times more numerous in the warmer lattitudes than CO2 (as much as 100 to 1)?

Can anyone explain why the Jurrassic CO2 level was ten times what it is today without causing the Earth to turn into another Venus?

Can anyone explain why the ice core samples show that higher CO2 levels came AFTER the warm periods with which they are associated?

Can anyone explain why 1934 was a warmer year in the U.S. than any year since then?

The most obvious answer is not always correct but that's usually a good place to start.

I will go out on a limb and say that water vapor is by far the most important greenhouse gas and that the increase in CO2 is of minor importance insofar as causing climate change is concerned.

If CO2 causes global warming, maybe forest fires cause matches.


The funny part
is that after global warming is shown to be false, the climate scientists who agreed will all go back to work and rarely mention their weak-minded "consensus". Environmentalists and the Democratic Party will try to do the same, but the voters will not forget the lying morons who fanatically and hysterically demanded that everyone do as they say.

Doc5000
They don't have to be right and they don't mind being proven wrong.

Take the Ozone Hole- we still can't use freon even though the ozone hole catastrophy turned out to be no catastrophy at all.

Its like a gov't program instituted with the high minded purpose of helping the helpless. Not only do they generally do more harm than good, they never go away.

Once they are in place, they shift focus to preserve their members and keep the paychecks coming. In other words, all they need to do is create a bureaucracy or new agency (IPCC). Once its formed, it no longer matters why it was formed. If global warming turnes out to be nothing of consequence, they will focus on hurricanes or whatever and they will never go away.

A liberal success story.

Irony is something Robert is good at
The funny thing about all of Robert's posts trying to hijack this thread is that Saddam really did have a WMD program and Cheney and Bush were right all along.



Of course intel isn't science
It's deductive analysis, with the twist of a "final answer" that is provided by the designated level in the chain of command.

Science doesn't have a "final answer" or a chain of command. By its nature -- as a function of government -- intel does. The "answer" may be (and usually is) couched as a best guess, which may gain gravity as it is bolstered by new observations over time. But the fundamental obligation of intel is a "final answer"; when evidence is not incontrovertible enough, the accountable chain of command kicks in to give it.

Even when intel is performed on a commercial basis, its purpose is still to answer the questions asked by the client. The client, whether public or private, drives the agenda, decides what to do with the answer, and has a number of factors that legitimately influence his decisions, other than "intelligence."

Robert HAS beautifully illustrated the political football intel can be, however, by referring to the famous aluminum tubes. The important point about the tubes is that REGARDLESS of the use they were best suited for, that use was part of a WMD program. If you think rockets have nothing to do with WMD, you don't know much about rockets, WMD, or Saddam's history of using chemical weapons, and how it affected the UN sanctions on him. Or -- you're a left-wing political opponent of George W. Bush.

Doc5000
You may be right about voters not forgetting, but its not likely for far too many of them. Over and over, politicians and pundits have been wrong worng wrong, yet seem to pay no price in credibility. Is Newsweek admitting they were wrong about a new ice age in the 70"s, but they are now right about GW? What about the left wing journalists who called Ho Chi Minh an agrarian reformer and as soon as we left Nam the violence woud cease? Where are the apologies for the bloodbath that followed? Joan Baez, to her credit, expressed dismay. Jane Fonda has never admitted any mistake, or tempered her stance that only communism can lead to improvement in government. She is still a heroine of the lefties.

Posting Etiquitte
Robert,

I know you think your job is to play the fool on these threads and you do that well. But if you are going to respond to a quote, the QUOTE IT. Next, actually respond to it rather than make some juvenile crack that means nothing given that you have provided neither the opposition's quote nor any actual refutation of the quote.

Not that I want or expect you to come across as half-way intelligent but if you are going to pollute these threads with your nonsense, at least make an effort to move beyond non sequiturs.

Thanks.


Thatisall.

Wally
Well thought out and brilliantly stated; I intend to steal the "forest fires cause matches" line.

campagnolo
"So global warming, regardless of cause, should be an important topic of scientific study.
And if it turns out scientists conclude man is indeed making conditions worse and that we can possibly do something about it, then we should act."

Also, it is virtually impossible to account for every variable when making predictions on complex systems. Scientists purposely strive to come up with models with the fewest number of necessary variables that will accurately mimic the aggregate behavior of all known and unknown variables in what they are observing. Predictive models do not have to be perfect or all encompassing in order to provide beneficial insight to scientists, and to suggest as much is disingenuous."

Campagnolo, I would say that global warming should be the topic of HONEST scientific study.
When you have pro-AGW scientists refusing to disclose the methods by which they arrived at their conclusions, and attempting to conceal errors in their work, and whose work is "peer reviewed" by scientists with whom they have previously collaborated on other projects, and when you have threats being made against dissenters from the AGW hypothosis, and publications attemting to supress competing viewpoints, then one begins to suspect that the study of global warming is less than honest.

So whether or not predictive models should be prefect does not even come into play here. Until we get honest scientific inquiry which by definition involves GENUINE peer review of ALL data and methods, then the AGW predictive models are nothing but a sham and most certainly should NOT be the basis of decision making.

campagnolo
Consider also the Kyoto Accords, a treaty ostensibly to reduce human emissions of greenhouse gases. In fact the treaty would do nothing of the sort. It would only transfer greenhouse emissions from out of favor industrialized nations such as the United States to in favor industrializing nations. The treat imposes restrictions on the industrialized nations but none on the industrializing ones. An eighth grader could see that the intent of the treaty is not to reduce greenhouse emissions but improve the economies of the industrializing nations at the expense of the industrialized ones. Namely, the United States. This strongly suggests that AGW hypesters have an agenda other than saving the planet from human greenhouse gas emissions. After the Kyoto Treaty was established in its basic form, Jaques Chiraq was quoted as sayting that it would level the playing field. An interesting quote from someone intent on reducing greenhouse gases.

The age of unreason
On August 26 and 27 in the year 1883 the island of Krakatoa was blown apart by a volcanic explosion. Over 36,000 people died as a result, and courtesy of The History Channel "the debris from the explosion caused GLOBAL temperatures to drop, cooling the planet for DECADES." You'll have to watch the show for yourself. But it seems for people who can reason that if this volcano caused decades of cooler temperatures, wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that after the debris had settled again to the earth that the earth would begin to rewarm to the pre-explosion levels? Why do scientists studying global warming ignore the fact that once upon a time - while the Romans were roaming and conquering the world - FIG trees - which like tropical weather - were growing in Germany? And wine-grapes were grown in England. Global warming or just a return to what it was? If it wasn't a catastrophe for figs to grow in Germany then, why would it be a catastrophe now? For those doomsayers of whatever side reason seems to be absent from this debate entirely. Also scientific method which would state that a hypothesis needs to be tested by repeated experimentation before it can ever be a theory - and what are they trying to disprove is that it is not a random event caused by other factors. When sun-spot activity, warming on COLD planets, the effects of natural phenomena like volcanoes, is added to the global warming mix, the statistical evidence does not support man-made global warming. But if people are terribly worried about global warming caused by carbon dioxide, instead of whining and buying carbon credits, they should plant more trees. Trees BREATHE carbon dioxide and give back oxygen. This is not a theory, that is a scientifically proven FACT.

Where is "You Make Me Laugh"...
who consistently quoted the NASA study. His silence is deafening.

DJF
When CHIRAC,,, says "it will level the playing field" regarding the KYOTO treaty,,,

He is referring to the GROWTH in GDP for his country vs. the USA...

By limiting the CO2 produced in the USA he hopes to slow OUR GDP down to something more REASONABLE,,, say .5%.

The growth that the USA has had over the last 10 years is closer to 3% and has been making the FRENCH feel BAD.

By limiting USA growth...
FRANCE would not be such a bad place to live and do business... Not because it will become any less SOCIALISM but because everywhere else (USA) will become more so....

MISERY loves COMPANY.

Well put CHIRAC

jetpilot
Conservation right? So instead of us running out of oil in 75 years, we run out in what 100? My problem with your brand of thinking is, that it tends towards unnecessary hystrionics.

Internal combustion engines will die a natural death, just like coal burning locomotives did in the 20th century. Why? Because it is the natural progression of things.

Many of you folks labor under this idea that if we don't all run around screaming that the sky is falling, we must be ignorant bumpkins. It is that old asserton, that amounts to, "If you don't agree with majority opinion, you are a moron."

Many of us do dispute certain findings with regards to global warming. Yet when a huge piece of evidence used by global warming advocates, falls apart, you attack us for noticing. Here is a tip: if you want things to change, then dump this attitude that those of us who dispute man made global warming are morons. You might actually win more converts to your cause.
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