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Friday, August 10, 2007
Amanda Carpenter :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hillary Admits Caving to Gay Lobby
by Amanda Carpenter
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Hillary Clinton admitted she criticized the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for his controversial statements about homosexuality only after coming under fire herself from a gay lobby group in a forum for gay rights Thursday evening.

Clinton said she made a mistake by hesitating to oppose his comments.

Last March, Gen. Peter Pace told the Chicago Tribune that homosexuality was “immoral” and that he did not support the military’s policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell.” Shortly thereafter, Clinton was asked by a reporter to comment on Pace’s remarks about homosexuals.

Clinton’s initial answer was tight-lipped: “Well, I am going to leave that to others to conclude.”

During the forum, sponsored by the Human Rights Campaign and a gay broadcast cable channel, Clinton said she came out strongly against Pace’s remarks after speaking with representatives from the Human Rights Campaign.

Clinton explained that after telling ABC News it was for “others to conclude” whether homosexuality was immoral or not, “My friends started calling me,” referring to her allies at HRC. The next day, Clinton clarified she did not think homosexuality was “immoral” and began criticizing Pace.

“I should have put it in a broader context,” Clinton apologized Thursday. “It was a mistake.”

She continued: “Because my view was as a chairman of the Joint Chiefs he had absolutely no right to say what he said. I disagree with him profoundly, but what was really offensive is that he was in a position of responsibility that had a direct impact on the lives of hundreds of thousands of these young people in the military. So I went right at him on ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’”

The HRC and Clinton alliance dates back to the Clinton White House when, as First Lady, Mrs. Clinton worked closely with the gay lobby to defeat the Federal Marriage Amendment. When HRC President Joe Solmonese introduced Clinton at a keynote address she gave to the group earlier this year, he said that he and Hillary had a “storied past” that began when he was working with Emily’s List, the group that raises money for pro-abortion Democrat candidates.

“It was Senator Clinton who first summoned me to the Hill to talk about our strategy for defeating the federal marriage amendment,” he said.

He said she asked him: “How are we going to make sure the messaging is united, the Senate is united, the community is united and we are going to kill it [the federal marriage amendment] dead?”

“She brought us the Senate to brief people on how to get this done,” Solmonese recalled. “She convened the meeting and she made sure everyone was in line.”

In the Thursday forum, Clinton also said she believed the Republican-led, “demeaning, degrading and mean-spirited” opposition to gay rights “is over.”

In a 2008 candidate questionnaire for HRC, Clinton indicated she supported civil unions, workplace protections for homosexuals, federal hate crimes legislation, federal benefits and insurance coverage for same-sex couples, adoption rights for same-sex couples, the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell,” increased funding for comprehensive sex education and HIV/AIDS and the right of an American citizen to petition for immigration sponsorship for a same-sex partner.

The HRC/Logo event was only broadcast on the gay network station and on their website via streaming video. It was moderated by Margaret Carlson and a group of three questioners: HRC President Solmonese, openly gay Washington Post editorial page writer Jonathan Capehard and lesbian singer Melissa Etheridge.

All of the Democrats campaigning for their party’s nomination for President, save Sen. Joe Biden (Del.) and Sen. Chris Dodd (Conn.), participated. The forum allowed each candidate to be questioned individually for 18 minutes by Carlson and the panelists.

HRC will, but has not yet endorsed a 2008 presidential candidate. Clinton is heavily favored by HRC, but a presidential campaign endorsement from the gay lobby could hurt her in a general election, according to recent polling.

A poll released August 8 by the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute showed that an endorsement from a gay rights group could turn off twice as many voters as it attracts.

In a Wednesday press conference at the National Press Club, Quinnipiac University Polling Institute assistant research director Peter Brown explained, “In Ohio, for instance, ten percent of the voters say they would be more likely to vote for a candidate endorsed by a gay rights group, but 34 percent would be less likely.”

Brown also said their poll, which tested voters in the swing states in Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, found that endorsements from pro-abortion groups and business interests would have a negative effect on voters in those states.

View the video of Hillary admitting that she panders to the gay lobby by clicking here.

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About The Author
Amanda Carpenter is the author of “The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy's Dossier on Hillary Clinton,” published in October 2006.
 
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"Caving" - so what?
Does anybody believe that Sen Clinton is opposed personally politically or in any other to homosexuality? Then how is she caving? Politicians usually respond to pressure - that is part of their job description.

This is news?
So a Dhimmicrat presidential candidate is supporting a pro-deviance point of view? The mainstreaming of homo-abnormative behavior is a hallmark of the Leftinistas, and has been for decades.

I can't find...
...any mention of anything sexual in the US Constitution. No mention about orientations, male or female, man or woman, gay OR straight, in the entire Document can I find. There must be two editions.

Conundrum
Oh, what's a totally poll-driven politician supposed to do???

"A poll released August 8 by the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute showed that an endorsement from a gay rights group could turn off twice as many voters as it attracts."

Tough spot to be in, indeed, Hill.

But then, that's what happens when you have nothing inside of you but the singular desire to GET THOSE VOTES. Principles? WHAT principles?!? And what could they possibly have to do with a Dimwit president??

If....
If the GOP is so void of issues, candidates and interest that they have to wheel out the gays again, then the Dems will surely win.

Ellen
That's a big "if" - I wouldn't take it to the bank, as it were.

Why are
Why are politicians so interested in the votes of gays? Yes, its a loud and vocal group. Yes, the media spends a huge amount of time featuring this group. But as a percentage of the general population its a tiny group. Its a small percentage of less then 1%. Its not a group of 5 or 10%, like many would like you to think, not even close. You would think politicians would be more interested in groups that actually make up a larger percentage of this country. It is a number game, elections that is.

AGAINST MARRIAGE
Did I read that she was against the Federal Marriage ACT, oh I guess she would be since her old man(BILLY THE SCUD CLINTON) was scudding interns in the office that she now wants to run.
Do you think ths is a gay problem? Maybe she is just coming out of the closet. Chelsea Clinton went to IRAQ and asked the soldiers the 3 most dangerous people they are scared of. The soldiers response was OSAMA,OBAMA and your MAMA.
Thought I would throw thatin since its TGIF.
.

Bring it on, I say
I rather enjoy hearing from people that they find homosexuality immoral, I want those people to speak out and speak up, if for no other reason than for us to hear their bigotry toward factions of our society. Come out of the closet, if you will. It only serves to help us understand the lack of education and intellect that person does not hold so as to not vote for him/her and hopefully, treat with disdain as they have not evolved intellectually into the 21st century.

In addition, those of you who offer your bible as substantiated evidence for your stance of morality on this issue are nothing more than irrelevant in such a debate of political ideas if you’re basing your ideals on the supernatural.

Your inability to defend such an argument without invoking the supernatural is in and of itself, absurd and no intelligent person would ever think you educated for doing so. Again, invoking a bible is only because you have no other argument, which you could hide behind to protect you from the revealing of your bigotry, hatred and contempt for people that are different than you.

You’re all atheists anyway when it comes to worship.

Gay marriage is a stupid idea; marriage itself is an extortion of our society with all its stupidity, blackmail, coercion and manipulation. The financial strain it places on government, of which I’m sure statistics could glean for us, is outrageous. This is only superceded by the “have a child, get a tax credit” insanity. And now we're headed down the road of providing health care to these bottom feeders who have children and no way of supporting them.

All marriage should be banned, it will never happen, but it would be worthwhile in our society.

Any person seeking marriage simply wishes to extort, manipulate and control another individual for egotistical reasons rooted within their own dysfunction. Clearly, it is one of the dumbest historical reverences we engage in, second only to religion itself.

scooter
I seriously hope your post was pure satire....it may actually be impossible for one human being to have so little understanding of society, religion and culture, paired with a complete ignorance of human history and western civilization.

Icedog
No, I have great understanding of history, society and such, (in fact, my degree is in Behavioral Sciences) it doesn't negate the idea or the discussion that should be had regarding such a subject. It's not as though marriage is some subject by which it is untouchable and not suited for change.

I would enjoy debating the idea of its relevance, the extortion that it creates and the dysfunction is perpetuates.

Your statement, unfortunately, is one which most represents the idea that once something of this nature has been decided it is beyond reproach.

There's nothing wrong with consciousness raising to other ideas which may be of use.

Hmenah, hmenah, hmenah....
Isn't it a riot to watch Socialists like Hillary twist and turn like eels in a current? I love seeing her try to talk out of both sides of her mouth. Kerry did the same thing, and Obama's learning that dance, too. Well, you people made your Faustian bargain; now, you are reminded of it. The radical Left you so warmly embrace is not going to let you get away without paying the bill.

And Sheehan is going to run for Congress.

Yep, the Socialists sure are entertaining! If it weren't for the fact that there are people out there who can convince themselves to overlook the trail of contradictory statements that these Leftists leave in their wake, and will vote for them, we could have a real laugh.

Hillary delenda est.

scooter
Would you agree that a society's most critical duty is procreation?

Icedog
Not at all, in fact NATURE doesn't care one way or the other, it doesn't know to care about such things.

If a species, of which humans are only one, survives, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it.

It would be as though NATURE is sad over the loss of dinos and such; it doesn't care or know to care.

No, we as humans think ourselves important as to procreate and that this procreation is important, but that idea is only man made and egocentric.

Icedog
Scooter is completely serious. I went to the blog she/he has. I am left wondering where, exactly, the basis for morality does come from. Are there transcendent truths or is it all just relative? If I decide that my morality makes it ok to kill someone, what then? Another question- if God did not create the cosmos, then how did it happen? How did life start? How did the cell, the building block that we are all compsed of, "develop"? It has distinct organelles that have specific, unduplicated functions that would have had to come into existence all at the same time for the cell to properly function. How did the cell make energy without mitochondriae, or respond without a nucleus? I don't claim to have all the answers but you can not prove the LACK of God's existence any more than I can prove the existence of God. To claim otherwise is to lie. To convert a disagreement on the morality of homosexuality into an example of "hatred, bigotry and comtempt for people that are different from you" is to lie as well. Just because I may consider something immoral does not mean that I hate someone or am bigoted about it. I am entitled to my opinion and am inclined to follow the word of God. You seek to silence dissent and to force your views upon the rest of us; this is very typical of those that consider themselves so intelligent that they alone should decide all of these issues for the unwashed masses.

scooter
I used the word "society" for a very specific reason. The term "nature" is too general and is open for debate.

What duty do you feel is the most critical for a "society"?

The Hillary
After the gay debate members of the gay community who attended were asked who most represented their views. One representative individual gave the following explanation "We felt Obama loved us but we felt Hillary was one of us." A very discerning individual, wouldn't you say.

CVN65
I've always found it ironic that many or most homosexuals are so strongly anti-religous and so pro-Darwin/nature/wiccan/whatever.

If homosexuals are "born that way" don't they realize that would disprove Darwin and the Theory of Evolution? If the "drive" to be a homosexual is biological or genetic, homosexuals would be as rare as albino children or Siamese twins....a complete and rare genetic malfunction.

the basis for morality does come from
Morality comes from the ever-changing zeitgeist in our society. We learn over time why we don't just randomly kill, steal, etc. We decide what is socially acceptable and make laws as a consequence to the transgression as you cannot stop the behavior itself.

A great analogy is of other species, do you think that elephants need to have a morality handed down from a supernatural being so as to not kill each other? No, they’ve learned what they need to survive and behave in such a manner as to do so. All species do.

Morality certainly doesn’t come from the bible, wherever you get your morality it is from some other source and then cherry picked bible verses to either discredit or endorse such individual ideas.

Evolution
Being “homosexual” is just a variant in our society. You make the claim of it being immoral as a subjective ideal rooted in your own upbringing, but the NATURE of life cares nothing about this and it has nothing to do with god.

With regard to Darwin and evolution, you would need to understand evolution first of all to understand that there are many reasons that homosexuals may, in fact, be a fine variant in our society. They don’t populate children as often or as much; they provide levels of art, literature, etc. more often than not, there are any number of reasons and I can’t spell them all out in a sound-bite for you.

Not understanding evolution itself leads you down a path of not seeking reasons for understanding variation in the species and the benefits all variations may have for us.

Additionally, your use of the term “malfunction” is your own bias toward what you think is normal. There is no “normal” there is only variation. But that doesn’t support your argument so most people want to ignore or discard evolution because evolution endorses NATURE at its fullest by not adding subjective ideas to it about whether or not it should/should not do this/that along the way.

NATURE doesn’t care about these things – you do.

Nature says I have to go get my haircut but I will return in a bit to discuss further.

Cheers!

scooter
Do you think when a rooster kills another rooster, or a dog kills another dog, they feel any guilt? Why do you humans feel guilt?

Why do humans often risk their lives to save a complete stranger drowning in a flood? Ever seen an animal do it? Doesn't this defy the laws of nature and all survival instincts?


Robert
You may think that your morals come from being spiritual but indeed they do not. You utilize your spiritual understanding for endorsing or denouncing behavior, but you had to learn those concepts from somewhere other than the bible.

There's been much research to this understanding and I would suggest the most recent book by Victor Stenger, a great scientist and researcher. His latest book is quite amazing.

oops
Missed a "think" in that second sentence....I sounded like an alien (the type from space) :)

scooter
Ahhhh, now I get it...."nature" and "evolution" allows "homosexual variants" so the human race can have "art" and interior decorators!

I know you weren't trying to be funny, but I almost spewed coffee all over my screen. Thanks.

By the way, "Behavioral Science" is about the biggest oxymoron in the English language.

scooterNYC
I would love an answer to my questions. What you provided was a thinly-veneered "it's all relative". And, yes, wild animals will kill each other within the same species. There is a difference between instinct and morality. I do understand evolution quite well, enough to know that it is not mutually exclusive with creationism. Darwin himself did not claim to know the origins of life; he figured out how species could have evolved from other, common ancestors via differentiation and the pressures of natural selection. Evolution has to start somewhere. Claiming that homosexuality is a "fine variant" begs the question again- who decides this? Katie Couric, George Clooney, a vote? If people start to feel that raping five-year old boys is ok, is moral, what then? Are pedophiles also a "fine variant" in our society? If not, why? Where do you draw the line? Who decides the line that is not to be crossed? Do you, in your obviously superior insight and brainpower? This is the height of ego and an obvious downfall of man; this is what led to the downfall of Lucifer in the Bible story. And, please, spare me the "arts" argument; heterosexuals are so freakin' busy raising their kids that they do not have the time to pen short stories or dabble in water colors. We are occupied with raising the next generation of humans, a 24/7 job.

brian
My neighbor has a dog that will have sex with male or female dogs.....and cats, your leg, the couch, the floor, any stuffed animals, etc.

Calling animals a little 'horny' and without remorse...ok. Calling them "homosexual"....a tad disingenuous.

Scooter, still at it I see
Miss you back at your blog.

You still don't get it, do you?

LIES, LIES, AND MORE LIES!
Every time Queen Hilly opens her mouth it is either another lie, or she is reinventing herself. God save us from this Queen!!!!

RR

CVN65
Your questions to scooter have been posed to atheists since the first self-proclaimed atheist spoke up......we are still waiting on the answers.

Any responses will involve extremely obscure and subjective terms, such as "evolved civility" or "human law," etc…

This is insightful - thanks!
I had no idea people like most of you still existed.

Be fun to get your honest opinions on interracial marriage, slavery, and whether the earth is flat or round.

Regardless, many thanks for handing us the White House for the foreseeable future!

Icedog
I know. There are just some times that I just can't let that crap go unanswered. Fighting the good fight or something like that. Thanks for having my back.

Sooth
Don;t be so sure...

Scooter's mind
Scooter's thinking, across the board, is deviant and illogical. I do not know for sure but this may be the result of mental distraction caused by inordinate perianal pressure. It is a distinct possiblilty, is it not? Oh, my contempt is showing. Well, there it is. The gays just won't get it. They try to re-write secular history. They try to re-write the Bible. They try to discredit the Bible. They even try to ignore the theory of macroevolution which concludes that homosexuality can in no way be selected for the good of the species. They try to confuse the people by saying that gays are victims just like racially oppressed people. Oh!They just want to do what they want to do and have everyone just be happy about it. They want their numbers to increase through education even though this betrays their position that being gay is genetic. And why not? After all they are such special people. All the people who are not like them and who do not approve of their actions are at fault. Not them. It is all the "others." Right? This is the definition of the character disorder. Mental health professionals used to recognize it for what it was and treated it. Now gays want to to turn the world upside down and say that the majority is deviant. And for the sake of a few votes there are politicians who would help them.

Brian
And why wouldn't I? You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Odd
"In a 2008 candidate questionnaire for HRC, Clinton indicated she supported civil unions, workplace protections for homosexuals, federal hate crimes legislation, federal benefits and insurance coverage for same-sex couples..."

If she's hell bent on providing government subsidized universal health care for all, why would she be in favor of insurance coverage for same-sex couples? Wouldn't that be superfluous? Or a slip of the tongue, perhaps?

Why It Is a No-No
Brian:

"For the second group, whilst I'm aware that the Bible isn't too fond of buggery, does it ever state why?"

Because it is "an abomination before God." For those of us who are religious, God gets to make all the rules. All of them. As the joke goes, they are the Ten Commandments not the Ten Suggestions. And He doesn't have to justify them to us.


Subjective morality
I define my own morality. According to my moral code, the pursuit of my personal interest must inform my every action and trumps all other considerations. To the extent I am able to do this, I consider myself "good".

In practical application, the pursuit of my own interest entitles me to do what ever I want to people, if I consider their actions, existence or possession of goods to conflict unduly with my interests. Of course, this does not mean that I am always able to act on my impulses. Sometimes the threat of legal and personal repercussions prevents such actions from taking place. But suffice it to say, I am always looking for opportunities to exploit, to the extent I feel I can do so and remain unscathed.

Of course, it is also in my interest to encourage altruism, good will, charitability and other obsolete notions of traditional morality when it comes to other people's dealings with me. I usuually even pretend to operate on the same basis - because it is in my interest to do so. I just don't mean it.

Since I reject the concept of a a higher accountable being, I find this philosophy of personal behavior to be quite rewarding. Apparently, there are many others in our society who feel the same way. The only problem is that when, or if, too many people start to live this way, then society begins a long slide into barbarism. And that wouldn't serve my interests.

That is why it is essential for people like myself and your typical liberal Democratic politician to keep up the facade of maintaining traditional moral values, so as not to kill the gooses that lay our golden eggs for us.

Cheerio!

Interesting
Suffice to say that I have no shares in changing anyone's mind, those of you who have made up yours, good for you, those that are wishing to explore, consider this:

If religion decides that all its morals are derived from god and their god decides what is Right and Wrong, then I challenge anyone to prove, with empirical evidence that Right and Wrong exists. I’d even be open to non-empirical evidence that Right and Wrong exists. Let’s give god and religion all the opportunity it needs to prove itself.

All the personal attacks and feeble attempts to insult do nothing for your case and only make you look silly because you have no logical information by which to present so you resort to such. Absolutely fine, I take no quarrel with it; I just realize you're not to be taken seriously.

The other challenge I made yesterday and I say again today, there is nothing that a religious person can’t say or do that a non-religious person can say or do.

Exploit
"But suffice it to say, I am always looking for opportunities to exploit, to the extent I feel I can do so and remain unscathed."

And while you may have some concepts of interest, this statement only goes to show the lack of accountability and responsibility you have toward mankind.

But you did have some interesting stances with which I agree. Your egocentric behavior though would disturb others, or at least it should.

More info
Tedmug – sounds like you’ve made up your mind, good for you.

Then there’s this:

"Claiming that homosexuality is a "fine variant" begs the question again- who decides this?"

No one decides it. Do you not observe for yourself that someone who is black is a variance from someone who is white? If you understand evolution this would seem elementary.


"If people start to feel that raping five-year old boys is ok, is moral, what then?"

It’s always entertaining that people of your mindset go to this.

Raping a five-year-old boy is raping a five-year-old boy. There is nothing “immoral” about it – it’s an action that has a reaction to it. Let's start there - try not to jump off your emotional rollercoaster yet and read on.

Over time we’ve come to realize socially that this is not acceptable behavior in our society as we place a circumstance upon a child for which they have no say in the action nor the capacity to assimilate it. Further, we’ve observed that it is damaging psychologically to the child.

Now, you may not like this explanation, but did the Greeks not engage in acts of what you subjectively call immoral by having sex with boys? In their culture this was considered a loving relationship predicated on a right of passage from boyhood to manhood.

Again, we evolved our understanding and changed the behavior. Much like we don’t think slavery is such a great idea here in the United States, and so on.



Biblical morality
Scooternyc obviously has no belief in the Bible or religion. Those of us who do are considered uneducated and easily duped. He'she will one day realize the error of his beliefs. I hope he/she does so before this life ends. My belief that homosexuality is a sin does not make me a biggot. I do not hate anyone who is gay or bi-sexual. I do not want to see them dragged down the street, hanged drawn and quartered. I have some good friends who are gay. I would never demean them or treat them badly because of it; but I also don't think that the behavior should be viewed as normal. Pedophiles could use the same arguement for acceptance of their lifestyle (except I am sure the age of consent argument would come up).

Biblical morality (continued)
I would like to have a better understanding of what makes someone be attracted to the same sex. The Bible says it is wrong. Since scooternyc feels no relavance to the Bible, its use as a guide for morality is moot. If you really study it though, even taking out the "supernatural" part, it offers a lot of wisdom. Sexually transmitted diseases would not exist if we only ever had sex with one other person (of the opposite sex). AIDs would not be a problem. If we all treated others as we want to be treated and wanted to live our lives to serve others as taught in the Bible, most crime would not exist.
One other point. Our inalienable rights as described by our founding fathers are "ordained by God". They cannot be taken from us because the come from God. Without God, these rights are offered at the pleasure of Government. Our founding fathers who I think were way more intellegent and truely educated than many of the multi-degreed "elites" of today, were God believing men who knew religion had an important place in our lives. It was the moral foundation of why men should be free to pursue life, liberty and property. No one religion should be named as the "official" religion because people should be free to worship as they choose, or not worship at all. Those who do not believe should not be biggoted toward those of us who do nor try to prevent us from worshipping (that would be unconstitutional).
May God have mercy on your soul.

Obsession with things of a sexual nature
“Are pedophiles also a "fine variant" in our society? If not, why?”

Again, you seem to focus, as so many religious do, on things of a sexual nature, it’s an interesting observation.

A person who engages in such behavior we now see as lacking. We deem it socially unacceptable; we pass laws, which create a consequence for such behavior, as we should.

Is it an observation to say that a person who engages in this behavior has deviated from another behavior – yes. But it means nothing until the society decides for itself the functionality or lack of functionality this behavior holds. In this case, I’m glad to say, we don’t endorse this type of behavior.

If you delve further into science you start to understand that people are "hardwired" for certain behaviors and thus will act on those hardwires, which get triggered or the "switch" gets turned on, if you will.

Scooternyc
I am on your side. I have only taken the logic of your philosophy to its natural conclusion, so could that be so wrong? By what sense of logic do YOU feel any of us has a responsibility to "mankind"? The oncept of "Mankind," as an entity to which we all owe homage, is an artificial construct, just like morality. Could you explain, in rational verifiable terms, why I should care about other people, other than to the extent that it profits me to do so?

Drawing a line? Who's line?
“Where do you draw the line? Who decides the line that is not to be crossed?
Do you, in your obviously superior insight and brainpower?”

This is interesting; you want to play a victim by insulting. How entertaining. Because someone understands something you don’t therefore they are “superior”?

This is one of the most fundamental and dysfunctional aspects of religion – the idea of superiority. Once you feel you’ve attained it through your indoctrination you then feel like it’s okay to start moralizing others from that position; it totally lacks humility toward nature and humanity.

However, if someone comes along and speaks in a way that challenges your egocentric superiority stance, this apparently insults you. hmmm?

The rest of your post was listing satan and other such nonsense which is not worth addressing; it’s fiction at best.

I think it’s fine that you’ve attained a moral position, wrapped and endorsed by your bible, which gives you freedom to judge others and their behavior. I think it’s even better that you express it so those who may not be responding but reading can see the type of human being you really are, it’s merely the observation.

This issue, as with others, will continue to have a consciousness raising and societies will look back, as some do now, and wonder, probably as I did when I went to the Holocaust Museum, how is it that people could be so ignorant to the extent that they thought it was okay to try and genocide a people?

Mankind

“By what sense of logic do YOU feel any of us has a responsibility to "mankind"? The concept of "Mankind," as an entity to which we all owe homage, is an artificial construct, just like morality. Could you explain, in rational verifiable terms, why I should care about other people, other than to the extent that it profits me to do so?”

I can only speak subjectively, but once I understand that I am part of everything, I take on the understanding that for evolution to continue to move forward toward greater levels of achievement, then it requires personal responsibility of myself to speak clarity whenever possible so others may decided to shift paradigms and see their own responsibility which create things of a better future for everyone.

Again, I liked much of what you had to say, but the egocentricity of “get only for myself” is only seeking to fulfill the ego and not to propel mankind toward a greater “good” as we’ve termed it.

Does this make sense?


*correction on previous post, "to try and commit genocide on a people" was the intended sentence.

bible is not morality
I think it's great you've decided to get your morality from your bible, but it's not the unalterable word for EVERYONE in the world, nor should it be.

Nor should it be the basis for any laws except that which gives you freedom to practice your religion.

If your bible says you have to hate f*gs, then hate f*gs.

But the rest of the world doesn't and no laws, based on your bible should be considered when passing those laws.

The same reason why we don't want Islam to be a dominate religion in the world so that the Qu'ran starts being the word by which we pass laws. That is why we're in the war, folks. People want to kill us based on their text of what they think the world ought to look like and behave like.

Much to the same attitude as some of you posting here today. Hold up the mirror; not so pretty is it.

Sandman
I should have also added, that the understanding of the world and its evolution is greater than I am (which leads to letting go of ego) and that my contribution is a small one but still important when it speaks to the evolution of all.

This contribution is not rewarded to me personally, nor needs reward.

This contribution is not of ego, as no ego is needed. It's just the contribution toward evolution.

*still no one has taken up the challenge: if your religion is predicated on god and god decides what is Right and Wrong, then prove that Right and Wrong exists in NATURE since that's what we're all a part of.

Scooter has no shares in anything
Yet spews his disdain for religion quite aggressively.

Makes sense to me.

Skywalker81
When I hike on top of a mountain ridge and find rocks that were polished by vast amounts of flowing water, I am reminded that there was a time when God destroyed all but 8 people on this entire planet because the majority was wrong.
That is how I come to listen to what God wants and not what the majority believes.

To: Rich Boomker
Rich asked, much earlier here, "Why are politicians so interested in the votes of gays? Yes, its a loud and vocal group. Yes, the media spends a huge amount of time featuring this group. But as a percentage of the general population its a tiny group."

There are two answers to this question. First, the MSM is very interested in 'the gay vote' because most newspaper editorial rooms are very pro-gay in their thinking. They are either populated by gay activists themselves or by people who are heavily influenced by them. So when a presidential debate like this comes along, the MSM gives it much more attention than, say, a debate hosted by farmers.

Yet spews his disdain for religion
"Yet spews his disdain for religion quite aggressively."

Your subjective evaluation of my posts being aggressive, is just that, subjective.

Since you engage in victimization you of course would see my posts as such.

Scooternyc
You seem to have arbitrarily decided that you (and presumably the rest of us) are "responsible" for moving "evolution" toward some concept of "good," but you have not explained, in any logical terms, how you have arrived at this state of conscienceness, what definition of "good" you use or how you have arrived at that definition, or why anyone else should accept your definition.

Humanity will evolve, with or without our assistance. Whether that evolution is deemed "good" or "bad" is as subjective an issue as the construct of morality.

You have made it clear that you reject as irrational, any religiously-derived rationale for defining morality, and I applaud you for it. The question remains unanswered however - on what basis of reason do you ask other to accept your own arguments?

Buzzard
Uh, how do you square with yourself then the discovery of many things science over millions of years?

What proof do you have of this historical reference? (this is rhetorical, you have no proof but the book which authenticates itself).

This is laughable, but I don't want to laugh at you, I hope you read a science book someday instead of your bible and see the true awesome world around you; you need no drug; you need nothing to place you in humility - just look through a telescope.

To: Rich Boomker, part II
Second, this discussion of 'gay rights' is something distinctive to Democrats. I don't mean to be derogatory here. Democrats seek to advance the liberal ideal of 'societal rights'. Democrats seek a gov't with broad powers because they see that as a useful way to grant rights to groups of people. Gays of the liberal persuasion (not all are) wanting the attention of Democrats will present themselves as a group. Their argument goes "We're oppressed and we want additional rights so we can be empowered against those (other groups) who are oppressing us".

Republicans, by contrast, are put off by the whole concept of "group rights". They see the role of gov't as respecting individual rights, the whole "equal treatment under the law" idea. Gays of the conservative persuasion wanting the attention of Republicans will present themselves as individuals. Their argument goes "We believe everyone will be better off if we all have the following rights which we currently do no have".

Not responsible
"You seem to have arbitrarily decided that you (and presumably the rest of us) are "responsible" for moving "evolution"

We move evolution forward with or without our conscious awareness of the act. To do so with intelligence by moving our individual selves away from things that have been created such as bigotry, discrimination, etc. is a responsible choice which continues to create a "healthier" world, wouldn't you agree?

*apologies for using the term "healthier" but I lack the word I was hoping for at the time of my post.

To Scooter, Buzzard, Icedog, et al.
I'm not going to get involved here, just toss in a thought regarding "immorality" that may be helpful. Try the following thought for size:

Moral: behavior which, if engaged in by EVERYONE in a society, would have a net positive effect on that society. Immoral, then, would be behavior which, if engaged in by EVERYONE in a society, would have a net negative effect on that society.

For example, murder would be immoral because, if EVERYONE engaged in it, it would obviously harm society (there'd only be one person left eventually).

Have fun.

Goodness is as subjective as morality
I am staking the claim that, under the rules of rational thinking, there is no such thing as "goodness" - there is only self interest. i submit that goodness is another word for morality, and that morality does not exist except as we subjectively wish to accept it. I submit that the acceptance of the existence of goodness is an act of faith and that as such has no part in a rationally derived state of intellectual conscienceness.

Does anyone wish to debate this issue with me?

Scooternyc
I disagree that there is any intellectually motivating reason to "move away from" bigotry, discrimination, etc. So long as I am not harmed by other people's practice of such behaviors, why should I care that it exists? I say again that I reject the artificially contrived notion that I am responsible for anyone else. I don't even care whether the "world" is "healthier' or not, so long as I am personally satisfied. Please explain to me in objective terms of logic why I should care.

Liberty man
Good behavor is always better then bad for all involved. You reap what you sow.
Time to leave and go backpacking for the next 3 weeks. Don't let the world blow up while I'm gone.

will
If Western civilization is not going to crumble due to the total assimilation of gay culture, that must be because it has already crumbled. But that's OK. God will just find a way to work without "Western civilization".

Rodham Clinton Rodham
Of course a politician is going to wait to "take a stand" on an issue until they see how their base wants things.
As far as homosexuality, it is wrong. Just think about it logically. It is against the natural use of the body and not to sound vulger but the men are just sticking it into a different hole and the women aren't doing anything to or with each other that a man can't. The whole lifestyle is a lie.
I don't hate homosexuals and in fact have some friends who are. That doesn't mean I go along with them on this issue. I don't agree with everything my husband or kids do or say but that doesn't mean I don't love them any less.
So don't cry homophobia. By the way, a phobia is a fear. Just because you don't believe something is right does not mean you fear it so if you believe homosexuality is wrong does not mean you are homophobic.

Full Disclosure…
…for those who do not recognize my devil’s advocacy role-playing, because I have to go. I am a man of faith who believes in the existence of God. To Scooternyc and the others of similar bent, I submit that your opinions are faith-based as well.

There is no objective construct of “goodness” or “morality”. If you think that homosexual behavior is acceptable or that we need to feed the starving children of Africa, or whatever, you come by your opinions on the basis of faith in unprovable constructs of conscienceness. For those of you who claim that you reject “religion” because it contains no basis of proveable rationality, you are only partly right. It is a fact that matters of faith are precisely that because they cannot be proved. By the same token, any belief set that you possess which you cannot “prove” by the same standards of logic that you demand of your opponents, is by definition, a faith-based belief system as well.

When I said in an earlier post that no one can prove to me in objectively verifiable terms, why I should care about anyone but myself, I meant it. The catch to that statement is the presumption that one must have objective proof before accepting. I do not demand it. Knowing that ultimately, whatever we choose to accept, we accept on faith, it makes it much more difficult to justify disparaging another person’s faith-based conclusions while demanding they accept your own.

So for all you atheists who want to debate me on the existence of God, you need to recognize that the best you can do is claim a draw, because I can just as easily disprove, on grounds of rationality, whatever alternative construct you propose, as you can “disprove” mine. But, it is possible that I just might convince you that my construct of subjectivity is more appealing than yours.

sandman
"I am responsible for anyone else"

Your statement and full disclosure then show your ignorance of what I speak to since you then understand nothing except the ego of yourself. I figured something was up in your post but waited for the revelation, thanks for giving that to us. Religion is inherently self-motivated and self-centered as it believes the cosmos were created with you in mind and that your behavior, if good enough, will get you into heaven.

Which means you only act out of potential reward for yourself not for the good of all mankind, this makes you a fraud. But then religion and god have always been frauds.

No, my ideas come from nothing of religion, but nice try to attempt to reverse my own previous post.

laughable if not sad
"debate me on the existence of God"

Uh, in case you didn't know it, there is no evidence by which to prove god, if it existed, after all these years someone would have presented it and the discussion would be over.

You attempt to use language about a "debate" as though your claim is rooted in some science for which you had empirical evidence to present, which you don't, never have and never will.

You're afraid of dying; you're afraid of being alone; you make up placebos in place of taking personal responsibility for your life and you utilize your bible/religion for the dogmatic purpose of discriminating others.

But it's been an interesting discussion, as always with those of you without science.

You should remember
science once relied on leeches to even out the humors in the body; science once declared the earth was the center of the universe; science now subjects cancer patients to chemical therapy poisoning in order to kill cancer cells as it kills every other dividing cell in the body, often causing extreme anemia, vomiting, hair loss, various fungi like thrush in the mouth and candida in the vagina and anus and more; science currently provides us untold conveniences, but it is not all that there is in the world. The Dec. of Ind. says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident.." and does not try to prove them. Can science prove those truths? "..the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"??? Science cannot prove that premise. Only belief and faith can.

beachmom

Would it be okay for you to be friends with Child-molesters? They're wrong too.

She should have kept her big mouth shut
Gay support is a liabilty for any
candidate in a general election.
At at least 35% of them vote
republican anyway.

Hillary doesnt need the gays to win the dem nomination but she sure does need
a plurality of southern voters
to win the prsidency-which is one reason
she wont win in november 2008.
(Unless she begins now to resist the pressure from the gays and abortion on demand crowd.



HRC and HRC
Boy the gay community took it up the butt and was once again thrown under the bus by the Clinton fork tongue.

HRC said she could not do anything about don't ask don't tell because there was a republican congress. Under Clinton I the Congress House & Senate were controlled by democrats. DOMA (the Defense of MARRIAGE Act intended to protect marriage for heterosexuals)and don't ask were enacted under her husband's administration. Even under Bush, the senate was controlled by democrats, she did NADA.

She then says wasn't I wonderful I marched in the gay pride parade in NYC when I was trolling for votes for my senate bid in NY. Is she KIDDING? Can anyone seriously call that progress?

HRC claims she'll do something when she is elected....puleeeeez, about as much as her husband did. In fact she admitted change may come because republicans like Gen Powell and Bush/Cheney led the way in supporting civil unions for the last eight years. That is the only reason Hillary even appeared on stage with gays.

I don't care what your position is on homosexuallity, it was disgusting to watch "that woman" spit in the face of Melissa Ethridge with her non-positions and her gratutious assertion that Ethridge was angry because she was once sick with cancer.

Hillary threw our military into war in Iraq and has now thrown them under the bus for political expediency.

She threw Obama under a bus by calling him a political lightweight even though on the use of nukes, negotiating with rogue regimes she has made the same statements. Indeed who can forget Dame Albright and her photo-ops with Kim Il Jong. Or Hillary smiling and standing behind Arafat's wife as she called for the destruction of Isreal.

Yes Melissa, Bill Clinton threw your community under the bus for eight years and his wife did it again at that debate.

Rosie O'Donnell where is your mouth now?





JAZ
Interesting Points! You have a hell of a good memory.

scooternyc
The only that has been revealed by our post exchange is that you are an intellectual fraud.

Check over my post of 7:04 or any of my others. At no time did I ever attempt to persuade you or anyone that I could prove God exists. I merely said that I believe there is a God. That was enough to turn you into a snarling emotional beast. Not the sort of stuff a supposed argument of intellect is normally built on.

What I did say, was that YOUR arguments were not based on rationality either and you have proved that by all of your posts. You have built your supposed intellectual tour de force on the fallacious supposition that if you could disprove your opponents on factually verifiable grounds,then your position would be validated by default.

I only got involved in this thread because I immediately recognized that your arguments would not even stand the test of your own criteria for judging other people's beliefs. I invited you on numerous posts to offer up your fact based defense of your own beliefs and you refused. I can only surmise that you are incapable of offering up a credible defense.

(continued in next post)


Scooternyc
On acknowledged matters of faith there is no proof, as I said earlier. The fact that your beliefs are based on faith as well (though I doubt you can come to grips with that) does not necessarily mean you are wrong, in and of itself. The fact that I invited you to debate a matter of faith does not even presuppose that I thought I would prevail. I merely meant to engage you in some thought-provoking discussion. Judging from your vitriolic response, I suppose I asked too much of you. My apologies.

You have a lot to learn about rhetoric, reason, and the bigger scheme of things. When you consider that for all the accomplishments and progress of humanity over the millenia, we are but a speck in the cosmos of existence and eternity, and that the things we know are dwarfed by what we still don't know. That would seem to suggest that there is still a little room for humility and faith - even in the most "educated" of people.

Take it from a guy who has enough degrees to paper his bathroom and has spent decades looking for the answers to the big questions, if you are really interested in TRUTH, your time would probably be better spent in pursuits other than hurling insults on sites like these. It seems like a waste to me.

Vaya con dios

renny
Renny what you failed to mention to people in your post, either because you intend to purposely deceive or you’re ignorant to science, is that when science discovers its inconsistencies, its mistakes, it seeks to correct them. Does the bible do that? Does your religion do that? No they do not. Instead they hold steadfast to some ancient text of some eyewitness testimony from decades after events as the unalterable word of some deity no one has ever proven.
Ideals such as life and liberty are precepts given to those who are lucky enough to be born into the world, as liberty is a form of freedom; freedom to choose the life one wishes to lead; responsibility for the choices one makes thereby creating accountability of such actions.

Is it not observable to you that when one is born they are born to that which we have labeled “life”? Is it not observable that liberty is freedom and that individuals, as observed, thrive when they are free?

Do you not understand that science is about observation?

sandman
My posts are based on reason and logic, science and understanding of that which can be proven through observation of empirical evidence.

Regardless of your subjective perceptions of my posts, you have nothing to offer since you have a belief in the supernatural which in unreasonable and not falsifiable.

even more
"You have built your supposed intellectual tour de force on the fallacious supposition that if you could disprove your opponents on factually verifiable grounds, then your position would be validated by default."

It is you that is making the assertion(that which is: god exists), I'm just pointing out that you have no substance behind your assertion, therefore, by default, I would win the argument based on your lack of evidence.

Uh, duh! When your position is based on nothing and lack substance, hence it is reasonable to argue position based on only that which is factual evidence.

If you're a person of degree(s) then certainly you recognize this stance.

Morality
Hillary is either posative or negative. Evidently you the reader have cast a vote to decide. By her actions of telling another person (General Pace)that he has NO RIGHT to express his opinion and to add further insult to injury by calling him names is really below the belt. Just because anyone disagrees does'nt make it a hate-crime whatever that means. Ask Hillary why she sold America when she made a pact with other congressmen to issue 100's of thousands of visas to immigrants fro India to take engineering and computor jobs from Americans? Ask yourself this question. Does Hillary based on her past performance of scandals really care about middle America? Remember she said that "lobbiests are Americans too!@%%^^^^^ B#$%@!

Scooter
What the heck did someone do to you?

I think somewhere, somehow, someone really hurt you.

It is fascinating how you work.

Truly.

scooternyc
You say that "My posts are based on reason and logic, science and understanding of that which can be proven through observation of empirical evidence."

I say "No they are not". You have not offered up one fact in support of your position. Your arguments (if you could even call them that) are based on insults, straw man constructions, willful blindness to the comments of others and an overall sense of smug self-satisfaction born of the ignorance which seems to afflict people under the age of 30 these days.

It takes more than wishful thinking and self-congratulatory odes to one's own delusions of intellectual prowess to alter reality. And the reality is, you are an idiot, plain and simple.

I will probably copy all of your posts, deconstruct them in detail, and then use them in a freshman level course on what not to do when making a persuasive argument. You truly are out of your depth. What a burden you must be to society, what with your misplaced sense of self-importance.

Robert
It's intellectually dishonest to make a post declaring your morals come from the bible and then be offended when someone challenges you or blow it off as disdain.


Sandman,

You are nothing of a christian as you have lied on this thread. You made comments for which you revealed later were not true. This places you in the unenviable position of being irrelevant as you've admitted you're again, a liar and a fraud.

"I'm on your side" (no one is on my side, not required or desired)

"Since I reject the concept of a a higher accountable being..." (later you disclose you are a man of faith)

...and so it goes

Scooter
Who taught you morality? Or is it a totally intellectual thing? Forget marraige? Are you an anarchist? Or does the rules apply only to the ones like yourself who make them up as you go?

Virginia Daddy
You simply want to add idiom in response to my posts because you can't imagine that someone understands life differently than you and doesn't need all your supernatural beliefs in order to be a good person, live life to the fullest and leave it better than one found it.

You're still stuck in your religion, which, inherently, unlike science, never moves forward, they're still adhering to ancient text that is outdated by the zeitgeist of modernity.

You don't agree with anything that I state so why comment at all.

Scooternyc
I should be charging you for these lessons. Ok, let's take your last post.

"It is you that is making the assertion(that which is: god exists), I'm just pointing out that you have no substance behind your assertion, therefore, by default, I would win the argument based on your lack of evidence".

Here's what I really said. "I believe there is a god". What I DIDN'T say was "I can prove it" or that "you must believe it too."

As to your claim that you would win the (nonexistent) argument by default, is specious reasoning for the simple fact that a) lack of proof does not disprove truth; b) there is no guarantee that anyone is necessarily right; and c) you offered no proof of your own to support your claims.

If you will check my previous posts, you will note that my entire thesis was built upon the premise that on matters of faith there is no proof (otherwise the acceptance of which would require no faith). Since you offered no proof of your own, you have no basis on which to make claims that your beliefs are based on anything more than faith.



chaz
I don't need "morals" as you define them; I act responsibly in my life by the choices I make and the accountability I am compelled by. Being responsible and accountable are all I need.

From this, I don’t tell others how to live their lives; I respect life around me, I don’t kill people, I don’t steal, I don’t mistreat people; I understand the awesome nature of life and science and embrace its mystery; I treat others with respect. I may disagree with others, but I don’t seek to control others; I don’t manipulate others at all – through fear or victimization; I continue to move myself away from an ego-centered life to one that is fun and without the dysfunctional adherence to outcomes. (in a nutshell, if you will).

Where did this come from? It came from observation. There is nothing I've observed from anyone of a religious nature that ever made me want to emulate him/her.


Scooternyc
The schooling continues...

"You are nothing of a christian as you have lied on this thread. You made comments for which you revealed later were not true. This places you in the unenviable position of being irrelevant as you've admitted you're again, a liar and a fraud".

Here is your chance for total victory. I will concede entirely to your claims if you can point to the post where I said I was a Christian, or even religious.

Think hard now. What did I really say? Here's the answer, moron. I said, "I am a man of faith" and "I believe there is a god". Faith in what? Who knows? If you actualy possessed the capacity to process information you would have understood that I averred that everyone, including yourself, is a person of faith. So unless you are willing to concede that you and everyone else is a Christian, then your assumption of my Christianity is unfounded.

As for my belief in God, what does that imply about my character, one way or the other? Even criminals can believe in God. Thus, yYour charge of hypocrasy is logically indefensible.

Robert
"But for you to lecture me on you really knowing where my morals come from is not only intellectually dishonest it is stupid."

You made this claim earlier:

"Morals ultimatly come from ones spriitual beliefs"

This is inherently untrue as our society has changed over the centuries and what was considered valued at one time is no longer, and vice versa. So while you believe that you derive your morals from spiritual beliefs, indeed, they have been subjected to the ever changing society from which they were carried forward and then infused into spiritual beliefs as their own.

It's not an insult to you, it's a fact of history.

I have news for you...
"I am a man of faith" and "I believe there is a god"."

You have no faith and no god without religion first. Since you claim the words "faith and god" these are precepts of christianity, which has its roots in Judaism.

Perhaps you may claim no affiliation with christianity at this point in your life, fine.

But your claims are still of a christian foundation for which I have made the statement.

I have no problem retracting the word, "christian" if you indeed have some other religion for which to present the concept of your god, which does not have its roots in christianity. No problem.

Your condescension is entertaining and laughable, thanks for the humor. I know you attempt to insult, but I am not offended in any manner, I don't get offended, it's a useless waste of energy and emotion that is meaningless since the person insulting is merely revealing his/her own contempt for self.

IS THERE A CANDIDATE...

Who really supports, or much less gives a hoot about Gay folks? I doubt the 3 Dems are sincere here. When I see the rest of society... the best most can offer is "Gay Humor". I doubt the candidates are much different.

I wonder if Gay folks really think these 3 are looking out for their best interests ?

Scooter
Because its fun :)

Look, you come in here and spout very angilly how us religious nuts are mindless idiots. You then come out and say how enlightened you are.

Yet you truly do not get the power of religion. Somewhere someone pi$$ed you off enough to break you. And you call us victims?

Get the darn chip off your shoulder.

Virginia Daddy

It is called "malignant narcisstic personality disorder". Comments and Blogs... feed one's ego.

The ego splits when we are very young (imagination), but sometimes it doesn't go back together as we grow older. The false ego is the pretend person, but it has taken over the "real ego".

It is really sad. I've been in recover for years. Scotter must acknowledge his true-ego before the healing can begin.

But, don't try to offend scooty-boy, the false ego has no "real" feelings. It's like a serial killer, no consious. You know, a self-proclaimed all-knowing, immortal being.

Remember the movie with the old guy, who kept calling out "Rosebud". That was his true-ego finally speaking up.


Scooter
Morality. It's endemically part of our society that stems from Judeo-Christian beliefs. It's also part of The Golden Rule. That is treat others the way you would treat yourself. It's separation from Church and State. However, we really are am a immoral country according to others. We should be destroyed. Our destruction is imminent if we let them continue dividing us as a nation. They don't believe in the separation of Church and State. They have sent millions of dollars to our universities to create Middle-Eastern Studies. There is an epidemic of Mosques being built as I write. They were jubilant over 911. And yet not one little Church exists in Saudi Arabia. It's a clash between The Holy Books VS. the I-sham Koran. Look at faithfreedom.org it will open your eyes!

Scooter
wakeupusa.org

scooternyc
I am not scooternyc,,,, just the original.... with a question for the NYC version....

You note that society has decided that PEDOPHILIA is wrong and harmful to NON-ADULTS. Society thru the congress has set up LAWS for us that determine what age is an ADULT...

Taking into consideration that SODOMY, MARRIAGE, and ADOPTION are laws also set up by society... that were or are being CHANGED UNILATERALLY (by judges).
They are changed for GAY RIGHTS and they are not being done by society...

Taking this into consideration why do you not think that SOCIETIES laws on CONSENT or AGE of CONSENT, or AGE of ADULT will not also be changed (by judges again) to include the oppressed group PEDOPHILES?

Why are societies laws on SODOMY, MARRIAGE, and ADOPTION open to change for GAYS,,, but not CONSENT for PEDOPHILES?

If you also have a problem with JUDGES determining RIGHTS in society and changing LAWS (society made) to accomodate them then please join me
in opposing the GAY RIGHTS LOBBY.
(not thier goal but the way they go about it)

What do you say we give the recognition of RIGHTS and LAWS to accomodate such back to the PEOPLE... EHHH? HOW ABOUT A VOTE?



scooternyc cont..
If on the other hand you feel "the ends justify the means" or you like the process of JUDGES ok'd GAY RIGHTS even though the precedent is set for PEDOPHILES then please let me know this also..???

If you feel that judges will never do this for PEDOPHILES because (YOUR morality won't allow it) thus they could never ok it.. then please realize your in the same crowd as the HOMOPHOBES but in the future will just be referred to as a PEDOPHOBE. (did'nt know you were an old fuddy duddy did you)

Your counterpart 30 years ago thought lets just let the HOMO's out of the CLOSET... it's not like they are trying to change MARRIAGE or anything.
Based on the progress of GAY RIGHTS in the last 30 years,, PEDO's are next in line....next 30 or so....


It's not all bad though,,,, The PEDOPHILE PRIDE parades will be real show stoppers,,, the GAY one's have all become dull and boring...


chaz (part 1)
Certainly you must see that you're arguing with yourself. The very thing you're concerned about infiltrating our society is the very thing that those on this blog who define themselves as christian, are constantly doing - attempting to hijack the Democracy we live in for their own personal self-satisfaction of religious beliefs.

That's the point of others contrary to christian beliefs are making. They want you to have your religious freedom; they just don't want you getting any special privileges or laws passed because of it.

This gay issue, does it occur to you that the reason it has to be raised as an issue is due to religious beliefs of others? Religion believes that it's okay to discriminate based on a variance in our society.

The fear that has been generated to you and others who have this issue with gays (if I understand you correctly) is itself what is damaging your religious freedom. As an educated society continues to evolve the illiteracy, if you will, of religion will cease to be relevant.

Personally, I want you to have all the religious freedom you desire to worship and pray, whether I agree with religion or not. I don’t want you having special privileges regarding marriage, children, etc. in the form of tax benefits or use of government funds. But if you insist on having it then you need to offer it to all people of variance in our society who wish to be married and have children.

chaz (part 2)
Your religious beliefs do not trump the Freedom and Democracy policy this nation was founded upon and intended to build upon. More freedom over time, not less.

In many ways the Christians, with their constant haranguing of rights and wanting to add god to everything, prayer in school, creationism, etc., are the ones who have prepared the way for islam to now invade our nation through our own Constitution.

The very doctrine that was set up to side step this potential problem is now the basis for undermining our society.

Islam believes in a god, so you can’t say they don’t have “god” in their lives, which is what Christians want others to have as they think this is the moral compass for us all; how many have stated such on this post.

Now you have to square with yourself the fact that their god says women are like chattel, behead infidels, and on and on.

Their reasons are no less valid than your own. Their religion just doesn’t happen to agree with yours.

Frankly, I don’t like the fact that I am now responsible for protecting myself from this eventual invasion because christians decided to hijack our government, control, manipulate and cajole our nation’s policies.

Christians now are accountable to everyone in this nation for creating the opening for islam to invade our country.


Finally this...
You think we're beyond a civil war. Think again.

If islam grew to the numbers it hopes for, infiltrates society through votes - gaining seats, gaining power, starts making policy and law, starts teaching the qu’ran and all about allah’s creation of the earth, starts brainwashing people about where their morals come from and why they’re right and everyone else is wrong. At what point do you think people are going to say ENOUGH.

What do you think the sectarian violence in Iraq is all about? What do you think civil war is all about?

All because they deserve the same freedoms of religion christians are afforded, and by slight of hand, endorsed in this nation.

The answer isn't denounce islam, the answer is, get your own house in order and control yourselves.

The very game you play is the one that will be your demise.

And a great many of us didn't ask you to place us in this game.

If you think there's a life after this one and it's better than this one, then get on your bike and get there then, but why do you need to take the rest of us with you.

the "other" scooter
If you don't understand the difference between someone who's gay and someone who's a pedophile, all explanation of anything is wasted on you.


carlos
I never said doing wrong things was o.k. I said I still love them. There is a huge difference. By the way, that was a poor attempt at twisting words. If you read my post again you will see that I in not uncertain terms pointed out that the homosexual lifestyle is a complete lie.

It's been fun reading these posts
Some people believe in the 'power of prayer.'

Some people believe in 'mind over matter.'

Some people believe ONLY what they can see and touch.

First group: God
Second group: Man
Third group: Science

Is any group ALWAYS right? I doubt it.
Is any group ALWAYS wrong? I doubt it.

I believe there are LOTS of forces at work on any problem on any given day. Science says ALL TRUTHS must be replicatable. But is EVERYTHING EXACTLY the same on any given day as it was the day before?

MAN says he can 'change anything' only because he hasn't found something he CAN'T CHANGE. (except maybe someone else's opinion!)

God just watches and waits for man to grow up. WHAT man WILL be, I have no clue.

Just my thoughts on a hot summer morning.

Homosexual Running Mate
Hillary can demostrate her loyality to the homosexual lobby by selecting an openly-homosexual as her running mate.

As well as Obama, etc.

Hillary, Loyalty? You are kidding right?
The only loyalty hillary will ever have is to her self. Can be modified depending on audiance or poll. Who really cares who plays with who?
PS I think she's asexual (just an opinion)

Satirev
"Hillary can demostrate her loyality to the homosexual lobby by selecting an openly-homosexual as her running mate."

Stop stealing lines from Rush the divider without at least admiting where you got them

Folks
I know you really, really need the god, guns and gay issues but guess what? Your game is finished. The people see what it has wrought. Incompetence and a divided society

scooter
You have really missed the mark! You blame Christians just as much as the Republicans for ANY MISHAP. Did you even read my blog? Judeo-Christianity have founded this country. You learned morality by concepts and tradition that has been established by our forefathers that are upheld not by one person but by many. United we stand! Evil prevails when good men do NOTHING! We live in this greatest nation on God's green earth paid for by the ultilmate sacrifice by our finest. Personally I don't care if you are gay or not. However, family values are the backbone of our society and we have a RIGHT to disagree with any lifestyle. My friend you must READ faithfreedom.org Christians do not plan to nuke innocent people. It's the false natzy doctrine of the Koran thats compelling radical jihadism to superimpose their way of life on us. Has any Christian ever bombed a mosque? How about a Jew or Budist?

Folks
Adios! have a great weekend

Brian
Deviancy is wrong by definition.

Why else would there be such widespread opposition to abstinence-only sex education?

I can't believe
that the Gay lobby still continues to fall for the Clinton bs, especially Bill Clinton! Did they really think that a womanizing good ol'southern boy was going to do anything for gays? And really do you think that HC will either? Because you are a very small minority in the grand scheme of things she is going to pay you lip service, get your vote, then throw you under the bus. Furthermore stop being naive! She can't single handedly force homosexuality and acceptance down people's throats. Not gonna happen. She is not your silver bullet. She is a user!

scooternyc: common sense is very useful
...in the homosexuality is wrong argument. You say, "Your inability to defend such an argument without invoking the supernatural is in and of itself, absurd and no intelligent person would ever think you educated for doing so."

Common sense tells me that the male procreational organ is not suited to be near the male, or female, exit to the digestive track.

And by analogy, however two females do it, does not fit in common sense either.

oops, that is tract not track
Correction: sxit to the digestive tract, not track, but you knew that

scooternyc, Friday 5:02 p post
"...did the Greeks not engage in acts of what you subjectively call immoral by having sex with boys?"

I don't know personally if the Greeks did that or not, but since this is a point that has only been emphasized recently, it is easy to believe that the lib/lefty historians found some oblique reference to Greeks having sex with boys and BLEW it out of proportion. When I can't decide a lib/left v conservative question based on my own knowledge, I choose the conservative answer, since the lib/lefty answer is based on subversion, perversions, confusion and the conservative answer is based on morality and common sense, which, by the way, is, by way of refuting the lib/lefty mantra common sense isn't.

So?
So what if the Greeks engages in homosexuality? They lasted how long? Get real. If you have to reach that far back you are grasping at straws.

Pandering to the Gay Parade
As usual Hillary is saying exactly what a special interest group wants. In this case it's the homsexual crowd. First she says that she is and always was against NAFTA. HA HA! Her husband and her pushed it through Congress & she's against it? She says that it was implemented improperly. Huh? It was her (oops, I mean Bill's) administration that implemented it!

And now she says she is against the Defense of Marriage Act. And yet it passed by overwhelming margins in both houses of Congress & her husband signed it! The "I'm your girl" candidate has brought pandering to an art form...

Dirty Harry
I have to agree with you. Kerry really should have taken lessons from Hillary. What is amazing to me is how many dumb people fall for it.

Thank you Luis!
Great post. All you have to do is take a human physiology class to see what fits where and why.

Even in electronics....the male part has to fit into the female part or it will not work at all. No matter how hard I try to stick that male part of my stereo set up into another male part, it will not create sound in my stereo system. IT WON'T WORK!

It just takes common sense in regards to these things....

Retro Ranger
If Clinton has re-stated her positions for political gain, so have Romney and Giuliani. Care to comment?

Scroothead, or whoever you are
One of your comments which I find destestable
was:

"Raping a five-year-old boy is raping a five-year-old boy. There is nothing “immoral” about it – it’s an action that has a reaction to it. Let's start there - try not to jump off your emotional rollercoaster yet and read on.

Over time we’ve come to realize socially that this is not acceptable behavior in our society as we place a circumstance upon a child for which they have no say in the action nor the capacity to assimilate it. Further, we’ve observed that it is damaging psychologically to the child"

Damaging pyschologically is NOT IMMORAL? If you really believe the nonsense you have been preaching (just like a born again AETHEIST) you have stated what you religion is. Just as the religion of the Mayans accepted human sacrifice, you are willing to state that since everything is relative (no right or wrong) I assume you will not object if another aetheist decides he needs to sacrifice you, am I correct?

This is a lot like those who preach about overpopulation; "I'll agree to it if those who support it are willing to jump into the ocean and feed those poor starving fishees!"

I wasn't going to say anything about this ridiculous thread dominated by an idiot! And I'm not in the least bit sorry to use that word in your case. There is no justification to encourage you to show just how really stupid you are; and I sincerely feel sorry for you.

scooternyc
I do know the difference between PEDOPHILES and GAYS,,,, One finds children attractive and the other finds the same sex attractive..

They use to both be ILLEGAL,,, SODOMY MARRIAGE and ADOPTION were or are being changed for GAYS,,,(by judges)
Why Can't the AGE of CONSENT or the definition of ADULT be changed for PEDOPHILES?

What difference is there in changing societies laws on SODOMY, MARRIAGE, and ADOPTION vs. CONSENT? If a judge changes it they change it and there is nothing you can do about it...

Why are you afraid to answer the question? Do you only want Judges to recognize RIGHTS YOU agree with? What will you do if they recognize RIGHTS YOU don't agree with?

Why are you letting your MORALITY and personal judgments get in the way of PEDOPHILE RIGHTS... (don't you see this is the same thing HOMOPHOBES do to you)... Would'nt you consider this rather HYPOCRITICAL?

DBZ77
"Why else would there be such widespread opposition to abstinence-only sex education? '

Answer: Because, this is not education. It is one of many attacks on science perpetuated by conservatives.

Tenore2
Why can't religious conservatives ever separate emotion from reality?


The fact is, during several of the most Christianized and religious periods of western civilsation, child sex was not only acceptabel but considered to a a regular perogative.

Were people less Christian then? They certainly had more social values in other areas. The church was at it's most powerful.

You should be grateful for sin - it's the engine that keeps most of TH running and TH posters preaching.

Jo Jo
Pardon me, I don't recall mentioning anything about religion in my post. If child sex was accepted in most Christian periods, that doesn't make it acceptable. It only shows that some so-called Christians were, it seems obvious, practicing that which is sinful, or against common sense. The fact that these actions were done in the name of Christianity does NOT make the practioners Christian.

I will be more than happy to defend the concept of sin without acknowledging that sin is something we should be grateful. Sin is present so that we may strengthen our character by resisting sin.

I also would like a reference that proves that sincere Christians, of any faith, would condone rape of a five year old child. Please advise if you can, otherwise, stop writing such disgusting
nonsense. In other words, prove it!

Jo Jo
Correction:

sentence ending in grateful: s/b

"without acknowledging that sin is something we should be grateful FOR."

Also,

Even Christ had to face temptation and show that He could resist ALL sin.

As far as your criticsm of "religious conservatives" and the emotion they express:

As I read through the posts, the most violent emotions were shown by those who feel that they must defend their homosexual practices. it is my opinion, note the word "opinion", that many are trying to convince themselves that what they do is normal and natural. It reminds me of friends I have who practice adultery and/or fornication, and justify their actions even though they know they are wrong.

Incidentally, the comment about older versions of religious practice being a result of "more social values" leads me to once again to ask, "where is your documentation to prove such a conclusion?"

The problem of so many of these posts is that, all too often, falsehoods are declared to be true.

design, nature...
omg...why, why, WHY does the subject of gay people bring out such juvenile posits and assumptions?!
Hardly a thought on this goes by without elemental reductions and lectures on where body parts are supposed to go.
As if the sum of all of us are our genitals.
The way the world is going, I could also conclude that straight men only think with THEIR genitals!
As for this article, why it is 'caving', to respect that an educated, tax paying qualified to vote base, should require separate laws to protect their children, their significant others, the security of their profession and justice for a brutal attack?
It's the promise of this nation that every American have that as a birthright.
These are just the basics that have nothing to do with what heterosexuals do. Except those who insist it's THEIR birthright to keep it away from gay people.
It's Hillary Clinton that's got her hands out to gay voters, looking for campaign funds and making sure that all the gay millionaires are in her fundraising database too.
And Luis...how gay people have sex isn't your concern.
It doesn't contribute to the welfare rolls of which you and gay people have to pay into and have paid ALL OF YOUR LIVES.
Wake UP!
Gay people caring for each other and a family through marriage isn't the worst thing that could happen.
At least then, if they weren't discriminated against in the workplace, had the option to marry to cover OTHER care, and could serve openly in the military. That's less gay people on welfare, and more to pay into the tax base and soldiers available without the draft to fight for your freedom. Gay people are designed to be enough like heterosexuals, so that that single characteristic you DON'T share, doesn't have to be your concern.
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