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Thursday, April 26, 2007
Alan Reynolds :: Townhall.com Columnist
What Supply-Side Economics Means
by Alan Reynolds
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In "The Seven Fat Years," Robert Bartley, the legendary former editor of The Wall Street Journal, wrote: "On March 26, 1976 Herb Stein coined a label, the 'supply-side fiscalists,' telling a conference at the Homestead Resort in Virginia that it consisted of 'maybe two' economists. Alan Reynolds passed this along to Jude (Wanniski), who promptly appropriated the label, though dropping 'fiscalists' as awkward and misleading." The label was new, but the basic concepts had been explained in Wanniski's Journal article of Dec. 11, 1974, "It's Time to Cut Taxes."

In 1977, Bruce Bartlett went to work for Jack Kemp, the congressional quarterback for what eventually became President Reagan's first round of tax rate reductions.

In a recent New York Times article, Bruce wrote: "I think it is long past time that the phrase (supply-side economics) be put to rest. ... It has become a frequently misleading and meaningless buzzword that gets in the way of good economic policy. Today, supply-side economics has become associated with an obsession for cutting taxes under any and all circumstances. No longer do its advocates in Congress and elsewhere confine themselves to cutting marginal tax rates -- the tax on each additional dollar earned -- as the original supply-siders did. Rather, they support even the most gimmicky, economically dubious tax cuts with the same intensity. ... Today, it is common to hear tax cutters claim, implausibly, that all tax cuts raise revenue."

Labels aside, those remarks are nothing new. In a July 2004 column, Bartlett correctly remarked that, "The vast bulk of tax cuts since 2001, in revenue terms, have gone for tax rebates, kiddy credits and other measures having no impact on marginal incentives."

Of course such "gimmicky tax cuts" lose tax revenue. But Wall Street Journal columnist Robert Frank, writing on economist Greg Mankiw's blog, recently imagined he had witnessed "the supply-sider Bruce Bartlett now conceding that tax cuts for top earners don't boost total tax revenues." Bartlett conceded no such thing. Revenues have risen impressively since the 2003 reduction of tax rates, and nearly all of the gains are from top earners, including profits, capital gains and dividends.

In 2004, Bartlett wrote that "with federal revenues at just 15.8 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) -- well below their historical level of 18 percent -- I don't think our economy is overtaxed." The Congressional Budget Office now estimates federal revenues of 18.6 percent of GDP this year and 19 percent next year.

Phrases intended to describe complex ideas in a word or two, such as Keynesian or monetarist, invariably become misused or hijacked after three decades. But such semantic abuses can't be halted by Bartlett's white flag. Like it or not, the phrase "supply-side economics" will doubtless continue to be used and abused.

Bartlett says, "The context in which the term had meaning no longer exists, and therefore it has become a barrier to communication." That context refers to a debate about the appropriate "policy mix" in a situation of double-digit inflation combined with severe recession, as in 1974-75 or 1980-82. The supply-side innovation, from Nobel Laureate Bob Mundell, was to suggest that (1) monetary policy is the right tool to keep inflation in check, and that (2) the focus of tax policy should be shifted from short-term accounting results (deficits) toward improving longer-term incentives for productive work and investment. The first part of that package is actually monetarist, and neither part ever ceases to be relevant to inflation and economic growth, respectively.

I wrote a paper on "The Fiscal-Monetary Policy Mix" for the Fall 2001 Cato Journal. It began by saying: "In the early postwar years, during the heyday of fiscal fine-tuning ... the predominant view was that the main function of monetary policy was to 'stimulate' debt-financed purchases by keeping interest rates low. Inflation was first considered a useful lubricant to be traded for lower unemployment, and inflation could be reduced only by tolerating high unemployment. In the late '60s and early '70s, when the shrinking dollar proved less popular than expected, inflation was routinely described by a thermal metaphor ('overheating') and regarded as an endemic problem to be endlessly 'fought' by using fiscal policy (a surtax) and incomes policy (wage-price controls), but never monetary policy."

The context of my remarks was the conventional unwisdom that gave us LBJ's surtax in 1968 and Nixon's price controls in 1971. In a blog commenting on Bartlett's piece, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman was irritated by Bartlett's comment that "Keynesians of that era" thought "monetary policy is impotent and inflation is caused by low unemployment." Krugman replied: "I was a grad student at MIT -- the great Keynesian stronghold -- in the 1970s, and this bears no resemblance to what was being taught. In fact, I still have my copy of Dornbusch-Fischer, 'Macroeconomics,' the 1978 edition -- and it doesn't make any of those assertions."

By 1978, however, supply-side ideas were even getting attention in textbooks. In the 1978 edition of Campbell McConnell's best-selling "Economics" text, the "Last Word" on fiscal policy was a paper of mine that is still online at taxfoundation.org. The 1978 Dornbusch-Fischer text found supply-side tax policy "intriguing" and thought we may well need "fiscal policies that operate on aggregate supply."

Bartlett says: "I still think (supply-side economics) was the right cure for the economic problems we were facing in the late 1970s. I also think it embodies some fundamental truths that are applicable at all times. But these fundamental truths, such as the idea that high marginal tax rates are bad for the economy, are now almost universally accepted." That is almost true. Mainstream economics almost universally accepts "optimal tax theory" and the "elasticity of taxable income" -- elegant elaborations of original supply-side themes. If incentives didn't matter, then we might as well discard the word "economics," not just supply-side (incentive-based) microeconomics.

Greg Mankiw is a "new Keynesian" scholar who thinks tax incentives matter a lot. Ed Prescott is a "real business cycle" scholar who thinks tax incentives matter even more. But Mankiw, Prescott, Martin Feldstein and others still quarrel with their retrograde peers. Being "almost universally accepted" is almost good enough, but not quite. When tax policy in most countries is as close to optimal as Hong Kong's, I will gladly stop mentioning supply-side economics.

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What it means
is that things cost what they cost, not what you wish they cost or what you want to pay, but what they cost.

And your employer pays you what he thinks you are worth, not what you think you are worth.

Supply Side Economics says that A is A, the Truth is True, Reality is Real.

Not very hard to understand if you don't live in Mama's basement or work for the government.

More meat needed
To a non-economist, & even to many economists, this article doesn't really enlighten. Not that I don't agree with his broad point about supply-side policies.

Would be good to see the 'effective' (not headline rates such as 'corpration rate' - they are very unhelpful in proving a point) tax rates in different countries & look at the economic growth & development rates in these countries. Especially those of the Asian Tigers. There's a PhD topic in the waiting. Any takers?

merry_go_boy
enjoyed the video clip. I hope this gets a wide audience. Much more meaninglful than your last one on the Wolfowitz article - that was lame. But help me out, what's your point about Reynolds & Kemp? If there is one, why not spell it out so the rest of us can critique it. Critiqing cloudy vague innuendo is difficult, but then again, that's the reason for innuendo in the first place.

Percolate-up Economics:
(1) monetary policy is the right tool to keep inflation in check, and that (2) the focus of tax policy should be shifted from short-term accounting results (deficits) toward improving longer-term incentives for productive work and investment.

We need to remember that tax and other government policies have their biggest effects NOT on where the dollars go, but on the incentives they create to change behavior. "Tax cuts for the rich" do not have their biggest effect on those who are already in that group, but on those who GET INTO that group because of the new capital formation, innovation and ultimately economic growth that they create.

I suggest percolate up economics is the best way to describe what we supply siders are really trying to say.
Best regards,
Tim Cranston

Cause and Effect

"Revenues have risen impressively since the 2003 reduction of tax rates, and nearly all of the gains are from top earners, including profits, capital gains and dividends."

Reynolds seems to say that the rate cuts explain the revenue increases since 2003. Not so. More later.

.

As usual
...those who criticize, or suggest the diminishing relevance of, supply-side economics are really angling for increased taxes.

They don't want to say that. So what they say instead is that lowering tax rates in order to unleash entrepreneurial initiative may have worked twenty years ago, but hmmm, ahmm, it's too narrow-focused... it's outdated... er... mumble mumble... we're stuck on one theme, that's it... get out of the rut, people... listen to me, I'm QUESTIONING your approach, so DO something... something else...

This is classic news media operations. When a talking head reads a sentence that starts: "Some groups question the administration's sincerity (or whatever) about this," that doesn't mean the administration's sincerity is questionable -- it just means the news producer wants to IMPLY that it is, without bothering to make a substantive argument to that effect.

Same with the heel-nipping of the supply-side skeptics. They don't come out and SAY that the result of abandoning supply-side thinking would be to take off the table the main modern-era justification for minimizing the tax bite. They merely pose an open-ended "question" about the "continuing relevance" of supply-side thinking.

Don't take the bait, folks. The supply-side approach is the ONLY reason our national debt isn't bigger, in spite of the drunken spending binge we have been on since the 1960s. The supply-side approach is the reason Bush has been retiring the current deficit much faster than he originally promised to, even though neither he nor our feckless Republican Congress met a single pork program they didn't like, between Jan 2001 and Jan 2007.

The New Supply Side Skeptics don't necessarily specify what prompts their concern about the declining relevance of supply-side thinking. But when they say things like "I don't think our economy is overtaxed," it's not hard to figure out.

They want to raise taxes. This is not the right answer to addressing the federal debt (which they also don't come right out and name as the 800-pound gorilla in their beige-hued amphitheater). The way to address the debt is to CUT SPENDING.

dyerje wrote:

"The New Supply Side Skeptics don't necessarily specify what prompts their concern about the declining relevance of supply-side thinking. But when they say things like 'I don't think our economy is overtaxed,' it's not hard to figure out."

So you think Bruce Bartlett is NOT a supply-sider? That's one of the funniest pieces of ignorance I've ever seen here.

.

tax, spend, economic growth
The tax cuts we have weren't the type that will bring long term tax revenue increases. In fact, they may make the long term problem worse because they only gave people more money to spend on foreign goods at the same time they spent more on our service industries, transportation companies hauling foreign goods, and gasoline.

These weren't really supply side tax cuts since they left the flow of manufacturing out of the nation unchecked. We have lost 3.2 million jobs in manufacturing since 1998 and 2.9 since 2001. The job growth has been government employment and healthcare, much of which had job creation but the salaries are paid with tax dollars funneled through Medicare and Medicaid.

In short, the rapid rise in spending is due to entitlements and the tax revenue increases are smoke and mirror in two specific ways.

Tax dollars coming from salaries paid with tax dollars may make the increase in individual taxes paid look good, but it is really just some of what we paid in, going back in. Also, any government workers (since they are growing rapidly in number (22 million according to BLS site)) that pay taxes are also only returning some of the tax used to pay them. Corporate profits are often from overseas operations that aren't doing that much better but due to the weak dollar and its decline appear to be growing each year which also means they pay more tax but, it is with lower value dollars and not really keeping up with the increased spending by government.

BS Detector and I disagree on a lot but, he is right that we haven't really made progress with these tax cuts. They can be made to appear we have, but, since they haven't kept up with spending, have stopped the loss of manufacturing jobs, and we are seeing more loss of buying power by the middle-class due to higher food and energy prices (not included in the inflation calculation), we aren't going forward, but backward.

Neither party is leading us out of this mess. Here is what the GOA, our own gov. accounting office reports.
Quote:
he purpose of this publication is to assist both the Congress and American citizens in understanding and evaluating the federal government’s current financial condition and long-term fiscal outlook.

The federal government’s financial condition and fiscal outlook are worse than many may understand. Despite an increase in revenues in fiscal year 2006 of about $255 billion, the federal government reported that its costs exceeded its revenues by $450 billion (i.e., net operating cost) and that its cash outlays exceeded its cash receipts by $248 billion (i.e., unified budget deficit). Further, as of September 30, 2006, the U.S. government reported that it owed (i.e., liabilities) more than it owned (i.e., assets) by almost $9 trillion. In addition, the present value1 of the federal government’s major reported long-term “fiscal exposures”—liabilities (e.g., debt), contingencies (e.g., insurance), and social insurance and other commitments and promises (e.g., Social Security, Medicare)—rose from $20 trillion to about $50 trillion in the last 6 years.

The federal government faces large and growing structural deficits in the future due primarily to known demographic trends and rising health care costs. These structural deficits—which are virtually certain given the design of our current programs and policies—will mean escalating and ultimately unsustainable federal deficits and debt levels. Based on various measures—and using reasonable assumptions—the federal government’s current fiscal policy is unsustainable. Continuing on this imprudent and unsustainable path will gradually erode, if not suddenly damage, our economy, our standard of living, and ultimately our domestic tranquility and national security.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07362sp.pdf
==============================

Unsustainable-----suddenly damage... our standard of living

quote:
GAO is responsible for auditing the financial statements included in the Financial Report, but we have been unable to express an opinion on them for the 10th year in a row because the federal government could not demonstrate the reliability of significant portions of the financial statements, especially in connection with major financial management challenges at the Department of Defense.
--------------------------

A few years ago, Rumsfeld said the Pentagon couldn't account for over $2 trillion in funds.

Quote:
To put this in perspective, closing the gap would require an immediate and permanent increase in federal tax revenues of more than 40 percent or an equivalent reduction in federal program spending (i.e., in all spending except for interest on the debt held by the public, which cannot be directly controlled).
===============================

Their own words, not mine.

Folks, the government itself is admitting how much trouble it is in. Their own word is "unsustainable."

Neither party in Congress, nor either party when in the White House is doing anything major that will stop the "unsustainable" trend we are on.

My "doom and gloom" prediction is that we voters will not stop this trend. We will not get enough people elected to reform our government. So, while we must continue to move our nation in the right direction, we, as individuals, have to also prepare our own finances, our family, and any who will listen for a major decline in our standards of living just as the government is warning will happen.

This isn't some "conspiracy theory nut," on some financial web site spouting this doom and gloom, but our own government officials who are warning Congress year after year to reform what they are doing. You have read the warnings of Chairman Bernanke, the Social Security Administration and now the Government Accounting Office.

How much of this warning have you seen on the media or from the lips of our representatives in government?

Random Walk
A few points:

1) The Laffer Curve, which is the heart of supply side theory, had been proven to work beyond any reasonable doubt. Bush's marginal tax rate and capital gains cuts have stimulated the economy and increased tax revenues, just as those of Reagan and Kennedy did before them.

2) It is true that cutting taxes other than marginal rates does not increase tax receipts, but so what? Reynolds states that "gimmicky tax cuts" lose revenue. Lose revenue for who? The government, of course, which can produce no revenue except for that seized from citizens at the point of a gun. Any revenue lost from the government is gained by taxpayers. Conservatives have grown lazy by relying on the slam-dunk argument of Laffer - that libs' desire for higher taxes does not even offer the dubious benefit of increasing government funds, but rather refelects their Marxist desire to punish the wealthy at the expense of the economy. In fact, conservatives SHOULD argue for tax cuts below the equilibrium point of the Laffer curve, and for non-marginal rate cuts as a matter of principle.

3) Only fools talk of lost manufacturing jobs as Old Man does. The fact is that we manufacture more goods in the USA than at any other time in our history, and more than any other country. We just do it more efficiently. Similarly, we no longer employ 80% of our population on farms as we once did, yet we produce more food than ever before. No one bemoans the loss of these farm jobs. An interesting side note is that few of the pundits or posters who whine about lost manufacturing jobs would prefer to put away their keyboards and take a job on a manufacturing line or steel plant.

JohnGalt wrote

"The Laffer Curve, which is the heart of supply side theory, had been proven to work beyond any reasonable doubt."

Oh please, please, please point to ANY "proof," even if it's not "beyond any reasonable doubt." Anything at all.

"Bush's marginal tax rate and capital gains cuts have stimulated the economy and increased tax revenues, just as those of Reagan and Kennedy did before them."

The 2001/3 tax cuts certainly have had a stimulative effect on the economy (as Keynes and every other pre-supply side economist would predict of increased deficit spending), but the 2001/3 tax cut has increased tax revenue? How exactly do you come to this conclusion?

I can't tell you how eagerly I await your reply.

.

BS Det
^^^but the 2001/3 tax cut has increased tax revenue? How exactly do you come to this conclusion? ^^^


Could it be that he looked at the actual numbers?


http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/GovView.asp

buzzkat wrote:

"Could it be that he looked at the actual numbers?"

Let's look at those numbers.

Year . Revenue . . .GDP . Rev/GDP
2000 . 2,025.5 . 09,710 . 20.9%
2001 . 1,991.4 . 10,058 . 19.8%
2002 . 1,853.4 . 10,377 . 17.9%
2003 . 1,782.5 . 10,808 . 16.5%
2004 . 1,880.3 . 11,517 . 16.3%
2005 . 2,153.9 . 12,266 . 17.6%
2006 . 2,407.3 . 13,061 . 18.4%

Following the 2001/3 tax cuts, tax revenue fell dramatically. It took until 2005 to regain the pre-cut revenue level. So under the new scheme it takes roughly 20% more GDP to raise the same amount of revenue (not a good analysis, but let's keep it simple).

So the question is: what would tax revenues have been if taxes hadn't been cut? Impossible to know, of course, but look at it this way: under the old scheme, for tax revenues over the last five years to have been lower than they actually were, the economy would have needed to be stagnant for five years - something that's never happened before.

Before this goes any further, may I just refer you to Greg Mankiw, Bush's former Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, who published a study that said tax cuts in our economy never pay for themselves by causing sufficient growth to pay for the loss through new revenenues. EVER.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/14/AR2006051400806.html
(references in this column)

.

GDP growth?
In terms of gold prices, the dow buys the same amount of gold it did 70 years ago. We aren't doing better when you put it in terms of real value.

Tax revenues that are higher with weaker dollars are not worth more. They are not climbing with inflation as fast as spending is climbing with spending.

Everyone is complaining about Congress not controlling spending but they are. The Federal government, pork and all aren't consuming a lot of the budget, just Health and Human Services, Social Security, and the interest on debt which are all tied to inflation either directly though mandatory spending increases tied to COLA or with interest as we pay more of it to fund the borrowing to cover the inflation connected spending on Heath and Human Services and Social Security.

Defense, of course, is not mandatory in the same sense but many people will say it is mandatory if we are to have a strong military and by people who support the war in Iraq and on terror.

It isn't the "fault" of this Administration of the President that tax revenues are "inflated" with weak dollars which set a new low today to the euro. We have seen over a 60% rise of the euro to the dollar just since 2000 when Saddam started selling oil in euros and showed other nations the harm that could be done to the dollar with sales of oil in euros.

Tax cuts can create a booming economy, stronger dollar, prove the laffer curve is true (common sense proves it works but, at what level in the curve we are at is a different story), reduce debt, and increase investment in the nation.

For the comment about manufacturing doing so great, prove it. Show how manufacturing is rising with GDP or how it matches the increase in population. That was the fallacy of the Clinton manufacturing boom. Jobs were growing, certainly, but not as fast as the population. In 1998 virtually every sector of job growth in manufacturing was falling and we were losing manufacturing jobs. Slowly, but still losing and then in 2001 started really dropping them with 2.9 million of the 3.2 million lost jobs coming then.

Manufacturing as a percent of GDP has dropped from 30.4% of GDP in the 50's, every decade until we are down to 14-15% of GDP. Manufacturing is like tax revenues. It they are growing slower than inflation, GDP, population, etc., they are losing ground.

We have "C" and "D" ratings on virtually all infrastructure in the U.S. That includes roads, water systems, power grids,
quote:
the American Society of Engineers have issued several reports, and what they said is that America's infrastructure is crumbling. For example, aviation they gave a D+ in terms of gridlock on America's runways. It’s eased from crisis levels early in the decade due to a reduced demand and recent modest funding increases. However, air travel and traffic have reportedly surpassed pre-September 11 levels. Airports are facing challenges of accommodating increasing numbers of regional jets, and new super jumbo jets. Bridges are given a C rating. Dams are given a D rating. Since 1998 the number of unsafe dams has risen by 33% to more than 3500. Drinking water is getting worse. They give drinking a D-. America faces a shortfall of 11 billion annually to replace aging facilities, and comply with safe drinking water regulations.

Energy – our power grid has fallen to a D. They're talking about the transmission system is in urgent need of modification; growth in electricity demand and investment and new power plants has not been matched by investment in new transmission facilities.

Hazardous waste a D. Navigable water ways – and you're talking about barge and the nation's river systems – has fallen to D-. You know, we're right next to F, John.

Public parks are C-.

Our rail system in this country – they are listed here for the first time since World War II – limited rail capacity has created significant choke points and delays. This problem will increase as freight rail tonnage is expected to increase at least 50% by the year 2020. So rail is down to C-.

Roads are D; schools are D. Security an I. Solid waste systems, or recycling systems, a C. And transit systems are D+; and waste water D-.

And the trend, John, has been one of continuing deterioration.
http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/BP/2007/0310.html
=================================

You can "look at the actual numbers" but, if they aren't referenced to population, GDP, other nations growth, inflation, etc. they are meaningless in the bigger picture of national economic health.

Again, back to manufacturing. Why if the other nations are using high tech manufacturing, and they are, just in time delivery, software that speeds production, etc. are they growing their manufacturing to GDP compared to ours which has been falling each decade while we grew the population 50% from 200 million to 300 million?

Why has the buying power of American workers both in and out of manufacturing fallen every decade? Why is CPI 1,929% up from 1913 and compared to the 155.1% in the 50's. When you compare manufacturing and GDP and other factors with inflation you see we have lost a lot of ground but don't realize it because it is so slow of a decline in buying power, and we are told we are growing and use limited data, that we believe the hype.

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/Long_Term_Inflation.asp

This isn't about blaming or giving credit to this administration or the Clinton. The Presidents aren't who control spending, tax cuts, budgets, etc. That is Congress, our representatives, that we elect and re-elect. It is about the fact we are worse off than we were in every previous decade for infrastructure, buying power, debt, and interest expense and entitlement spending.

11 times Social Security inflows couldn't match out flows and 22 times we raised the tax to keep up with the imbalance that is tied to rising retirees and inflation. Look at the charts for average inflation and then the chart on average GDP for the last few decades. But, use the inflation measures that include all costs to Americans and not a manipulated figure that under reports what we really pay.
http://www.safehaven.com/article-5795.htm

Here is a site that covers several factors in measuring "growth."

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/product.htm

"We the people" have brought this on ourselves. Neither party can lead us out of this mess because "we the people" aren't going to let them. We will throw anybody out of office that tries to fix this because it will require sacrifice on the part of all of us. The lower wage and middle class will get hit the hardest in any reform simply because the wealthy have savings, investments and the ability to move or protect wealth we don't have. Any attempt to place more sacrifice on them can backfire and cause even less U.S. investment and jobs.

The Government is saying itself, we can't sustain this trend. We are facing collapse. That isn't somebody else saying that of the government, it is the government itself saying it. It isn't just one department either. It is the Federal Reserve, the Social Security Administration and the Government Accounting Office. All agree we are facing a loss of standard of living, collapse of entitlements, our economy and value of our currency if we don't reform.

If GDP growth is so great, why does the government agree with private sector analysts we are facing disaster?

Old Man
I don't disagree with most of your points--infrastructure is in bad shape and entitlement spending, particularly SS and Medicare/aid, will bankrupt the government if not reformed. I continue to disagree that a more efficient manufacturing sector (i.e. more goods with fewer jobs) or even a declining percentage of manufacturing output as a percentage of GDP offers evidence of economic malaise.

Killer, sorry but your post made absolutely no sense. Elasticity measures the degree to which demand changes in response to a given change in price, not "how efficiency travels through the economy," whatever that means. Efficiency is not an end unto itself, but one component of an improving economy. Economies do not "absorb" efficiency, they benefit from it. Do you believe that the decline of farm jobs from 80% of the population to less than 2% has been accompanied by starvation and economic disaster?

Buzzkat - It is not surprising that government revenues did not rise in the immediate aftermath of the Bush tax cuts (I mean the second, effective ones, not the meaningless rebates) There are always lags between the implementation of fiscal policy and its effects on the economy. Further, we were still in the midst of the Clinton recession, and reeling from a burst stock bubble, 9/11 attacks and corporate scandals. It is true that we don't know to what degree the economy would have recovered absent the tax cuts, but we do know that marginal rate cuts have always produced an economic boom and a rise in government revenue, never the opposite. The Keynsian notion that you can tax your way to prosperity has been thoroughly discredited. We futher know that the world's economies line up almost perfectly if you chart % of the public's money seized by the government inversely with per capita GDP.

Manckiew may or may not be correct that tax cuts do not "pay for themselves," but again I ask, so what? This assumes that the goal of economic policy is to maximize government revenue. I for one am more than willing to exchange a smaller federal government for a booming economy and full employment.

John Galt writes
I continue to disagree that a more efficient manufacturing sector (i.e. more goods with fewer jobs) or even a declining percentage of manufacturing output as a percentage of GDP offers evidence of economic malaise.
----------------------------
It doesn't necessarily mean it if you have a healthy middle class that can "re-locate" to other jobs of similar pay. The farmers that were displaced had "better jobs" in many cases to go to.

Some of the manufacturing employees with degrees, special skills, high employment demand in other sectors, etc. have actually left the middle class and ascended, not decline in wages. However, the bulk have lost income and many are even doing two jobs to keep up with what they lost.

Another factor of manufacturing that is causing China to boom is the inflow of money that can be used to reduce debt and increase tax revenues from hidden or visible taxes in the prices of exports. The more a nation manufactures for export, the more foreigners pay the tax hidden in or added to those goods. But, like the Laffer curve affects taxes in a nation, they also affect the goods that are exported. Tax revenues increase up to the point exports start to decline in a sector. And, of course, the fewer items you export, the less the tax revenue you collect until you hit zero tax revenue collected on imports because you have no exports.

Naturally, no tax on export goods gets you nothing either but, it can create jobs and then tax revenues on wages that grow either individually or as a whole as more people are employed. Ideally, both happen. More are employed and more tax revenues flow in because the "right rate" was selected that kept the goods competitive.

All "super-powers" have been "exporters" to the world and that does two things. One, provides jobs and tax revenues but also makes those nations dependent on you for their needs and less likely to attack you. Think about how we have "kissed" the Middle-East allies even though some of the funding for terrorism has come from those "allies." We have to have their oil and we have to have them selling oil in dollars.

Also, because we owe China, one trillion, we have been less willing to enforce trade issues and even entered into the WTO that surrendered some of our sovereignty because we need loans and we buy billions of goods from China that we used to make here.

You don't have to be a "world power" to be economically strong internally. But, if you are going to be a "world power" and have a strong defense, and respect for your "power," you have to also have both a strong economy and that ability to stop trade with enemies or potential enemies without devastating your nation. We are facing the same thing Russia did. We don't have the internal economy to fund defense and entitlements without bankrupting the nation if the people themselves aren't willing to foot most of the bill more directly.

John Galt also said
This assumes that the goal of economic policy is to maximize government revenue. I for one am more than willing to exchange a smaller federal government for a booming economy and full employment.
===================
Which I agree with. Our founders left social and moral issues like entitlements to the states and kept the federal government limited. That was the right choice because states can bankrupt themselves, reform and be as liberal or conservative as they want without dragging the rest of the nation down with them. But, when you do it at the federal level, no matter how good the intentions, you increase the risk of dragging the whole nation down.

And if you did what John suggests, limit the federal government, you would see rising wages and increased exports and increased manufacturing jobs. You can't compete against low cost nations that also have low taxes. Because of shipping, middlemen, unstable conditions in other parts of the world, however, you can compete with low cost nations in many areas of manufacturing if you also have low taxes that compete with those nations. But, if you do, that means the people have to have higher direct taxes instead of paying them through prices in goods. That is the main benefit of the Fair Tax act. It not only removes the hidden taxes but the cost of collecting taxes from us through business.

We aren't talking "fairness." It may not be "fair" that business gets a "ride" on the back of us who would have to pay more direct taxes, but, we can't compete if we don't and still fund entitlements and other social programs we want. The more business we drive out, the more the burden falls on what is left and us in the prices they have to charge. Those companies that don't compete internationally and raise prices to cover the rising cost of complying with a 67,000 page tax code, still reduce our buying power with the limits those increased prices create on what we can choose to spend our paycheck on.

Tax cuts can cause a nation to boom as nation after nation around the world is proving. They were already low wage nations but now they are low wage AND low tax nations and business is willing to invest more in new factories, training, and export manufacturing back to us, the nation they left.

There are many who don't want the manufacturing because they are high users of energy and they have more emissions. They don't want refineries, power plants, or smokestacks. But, there is a price for not wanting those things and we are paying it now.

Come on, Old Man

The amount of misinformation you put out here is truly stunning. I don't have time to even read your posts today, but I happened to see this:

"In terms of gold prices, the dow buys the same amount of gold it did 70 years ago. We aren't doing better when you put it in terms of real value."

Where did you get this idea?

From http://www.nma.org/pdf/gold/his_gold_prices.pdf I get a gold price in 1937 of $34.79 per ounce. Looks like right now it's about $679. That's an increase of 1,852%, or a return of only 4.34% per year. On April 28, 1937, the Dow was at about 170 (http://www.liquidmarkets.com/?name=djia). Friday it closed at about 13,120, a difference of 7,618%, which comes to an annual return of about 6.4%. Interestingly, a recession started in about May 1937, and by the end of the year the Dow was at 120. From the end of 1937 to today, the Dow's growth has averaged 6.9%.

Let's suppose you put $10,000 into gold 70 years ago, and $10,000 into the stock market (measured by the DJIA). The gold investor would cash out today for $190,516. The stock market investor would cash out $770,660.

In the long run, gold is a lousy investment, period.

JohnGalt wrote:

"It is not surprising that government revenues did not rise in the immediate aftermath of the Bush tax cuts (I mean the second, effective ones, not the meaningless rebates) There are always lags between the implementation of fiscal policy and its effects on the economy."

Not exactly. There are lots of effects, and depending on what we're talking about, they occur immediately or more slowly. For example, the tax rate cuts of 2001/3 IMMEDIATELY caused a marked decline in tax revenues. They should also cause a slight increase in economic activity and growth, which would occur over time.

"Further, we were still in the midst of the Clinton recession..."

I love this. Do you mean the recession at the end of the Great Clinton Economic Expansion of 1993-2001? No? You're not willing to give Clinton credit for that, but you're all over blaming him for the mildest recession in post-WWII history, right?

It's interesting to me what you think we "know." You said the "Laffer Curve... had been proven to work beyond any reasonable doubt," but you didn't back up that assertion when questioned. And now you say we "know that marginal rate cuts have always produced an economic boom and a rise in government revenue, never the opposite."

The "never the opposite"; what do you mean? Do you mean that cuts never cause recessions or less revenue, or that rate increases never cause expansions or more revenue? Both are wrong, I just want to see which way you're going.

Two things you say we "know always happen" because of marginal rate cuts; economic booms and increased government revenue. The second one is the same old tired "tax cuts pay for themselves" canard that I refuted previously. As for the first one, let's look. What timeframe are you talking about? I mean, since you say that "[t]here are always lags between the implementation of fiscal policy and its effects on the economy," when do these supposed "economic booms" and "rises in government revenue" occur?

If cutting marginal tax rates produces economic booms, does it not follow that increasing those rates should cause recessions? And yet, the data don't show this. Clinton's 1993 tax increase was followed by eight years of economic growth before the 2001 recession. Unless you want to tell me that your "lag times" account for this?

So what do the three tax changes (Reagan, Clinton, Bush) have in common? They all occurred at roughly the same point in the business cycle - at or near the beginning of an expansion. That they were all followed by extended periods of economic growth says little about the power of tax rate changes and much about the power of the economy. It certainly appears that these kinds of minor tax code changes do not have big impacts on the economy at a macro level.

"The Keynsian notion that you can tax your way to prosperity..."

You appear not to have the foggiest notion of what Keynes' theories were about. Or you're intentionally misleading. Either way, I suggest about ten minutes of research; you might start with Wikipedia. You might go to Alan Blinder.

"We futher know that the world's economies line up almost perfectly if you chart % of the public's money seized by the government inversely with per capita GDP."

BS. Drop your pants - show some data to back up this assertion.

"Manckiew may or may not be correct that tax cuts do not 'pay for themselves,' but again I ask, so what?"

You didn't ask this before. You stated as fact a thoroughly discredited notion, which I summarily rebutted.

"This assumes that the goal of economic policy is to maximize government revenue."

Um, no, not at all - where do you get that idea? This says that tax revenue lost by cutting taxes is NEVER paid for through increased growth. I never said anything about the "goal of economic policy."

"I for one am more than willing to exchange a smaller federal government..."

Again, not the issue here (nice try at a straw man, though). There hasn't been any effort to shrink the federal government in... well, I can't remember one.

Remember, what we're talking about here isn't the size of the government, which would be measured by government SPENDING. We're talking about government REVENUE. This disconnect is complete. Republicans talk a great game about cutting taxes, but they have no stomach for tough choices that would allow cutting taxes to be fiscally responsible. Why else would we see an increase since 2001 of 42.5% in federal government spending with the budget process under complete Republican control?

.

One little dollop of BS from Old Man

"67,000 page tax code"

This is a smelly little smidgen of BS trotted out by various people at various times. I defy you to support this assertion.

Granted, the tax code is grossly inflated and should be massively simplified (though perhaps not as much as some believe), but it ain't 67,000 pages long. More like 10,000-15,000.

FYI, here are some lengths given by elected officials - http://www.trygve.com/taxcode.html. I can't vouch for the veracity of these comments, but some of them show you just how moronic some of our elected officials are:

"The current tax code, which at 1.3 million pages is twice the length of Tolstoy's War and Peace." - U.S. Representative Dave Hobson (R-OH)

I knew "War and Peace" was long, but 650,000 pages? Let's see, at 20 pages per night, I'll be done with that in 2096.

"With its 6,000 pages and 500 million words, the complexity of our tax code is the prime source of frustration and anger felt by millions of Americans toward their government." - U.S. Representative Spencer Bachus (R-AL)

Did you know that the tax code averages 83,333 words per page? No wonder nobody can understand it!

"The tax code is a complicated mess. You realize, it's a million pages long." - George W. Bush (R)

.

B.S. Detector writes
Tax code 10,000 - 15,000
=====================
The tax code comprises well over 55,000 pages [2] of laws, regulations and rulings.
http://www.fairtax.net/4.htm
==========================

However, if you want to throw out all the rulings, letters, instructions, and other things involved, then you can get close to your number
quote:
17,000 PAGES of tax regulations

* 5.5 MILLION words, many inconsistent with each other

* 569 DIFFERENT income tax forms requirements

* BILLIONS of dollars spent on tax lawyers and accountants to understand tax regulations

* The presumption of GUILT until innocence is proven

* GROWN like mad. Federal income tax code and regulations grew over eight-fold from 744,000 words in 1955 to 6,929,000 by 2000.
http://www.scrapthecode.org/
=======================

However, since the tax lawyers and accountants use all letters and rulings and forms and anything else that pertains to taxes as a basis for their computations, exemptions, loopholes, etc. why wouldn't you want to use all of them?

Granted, things like
Quote:
250 = The number of pages needed to explain just one paragraph in the Internal Revenue Code. A simple national retail sales tax will eliminate IRS regulation.

261 = The number of pages of regulations needed to clarify the tax code's "arms-length standard" for international intercompany transactions.
-------------------------------
rapidly increase the 17,000 pages we start with and when you figure some court cases are "book length" with all the testimony, and final opinion, 10's of thousands of pages more isn't hard to believe and all of those pages have to be read if you are a tax lawyer looking for a way to get out of paying taxes "legally."

Even the IRS can't keep track of it.

quote:
20 = The percentage error rate at the IRS for processing paper returns.

22 = The percentage of times reporters for Money magazine received inaccurate or incomplete information in 1997 when calling the IRS's toll-free hot line.

40 = The percentage of times Money magazine reporters received wrong answers in 1997 in face-to-face visits at IRS customer service offices.

8,500,000 = The number of times the IRS gave the wrong answer to taxpayers seeking help to comply with the tax code in 1993 (taxpayers still are held responsible for errors that result from bad advice from the IRS).
http://www.scrapthecode.com/educating/taxfacts.html
---------------------

However, since the people reporting this are biased, B.S. probably won't accept it.

B.S. also said
In the long run, gold is a lousy investment, period.
----------------------

Yup, totally agree and that was the point. Gold is "real money" and "real money" doesn't rise like "fiat money." The point was "buying power." Just like a $2,000 car now costs $20,000 or whatever the amount currently is, the car in "real money" doesn't really cost that much more.

Look at the inflation chart, a current dollar is worth about a nickel compared to 1913.
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/Long_Term_Inflation.asp

1,929% inflation. Gold in buying power is worth about what it was per ounce, a good suit, shirt, shoes, tie, vest, etc. (not an expensive "luxury" one).
Quote:
n my economics classes at Columbia University, I demonstrate the long-term value of gold by holding up a $20 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle gold coin. Prior to 1933, our grandparents carried this coin in their pockets as money. Back then, they could buy a tailor-made suit for one double eagle, or $20. Today, the Saint Gaudens coin, which is worth between $600 and $1,000, depending on its rarity and condition, can buy the same tailor-made suit.
http://www.investmentu.com/IUEL/2005/20051212.html
------------------------
I have made a lot of money in gold. However, I waited for it to start rising as the dollar began its slide to the euro and other currencies and got out when the dollar started to rally and back in when it started to decline again. Gold isn't an investment. It is a hedge against inflation and only does well when the dollar is dropping in value.

Also, tax cuts now, are less and less significant because A)the world economy and world economic boom continues, it is becoming harder and harder to compete. We are losing manufacturing jobs too much in to many manufacturing sectors and the companies feed on each other. Many want to be close to their suppliers and their supplies have moved.

Look at the last Job Report from today

[quote]--------------------------------March-----Apr.

Nonfarm employment----------|p137,596|p137,684| +88,000
Goods-producing (1-----------| p22,501| p22,473| -28,000
Construction -----------------| p7,691| p7,680| -11,000
Manufacturing ----------------| p14,095| p14,076| -19,000
Service-providing -------------|p115,095|p115,211| +116,000
Retail trade ------------------| p15,397| p15,371| -26,000
Professional and bus.serv.-----| p17,846| p17,870| +24,000
Education and health serv.----| p18,187| p18,240| +53,000
Leisure hospitality ------------| p13,445| p13,467| +22,000
Government ------------------| p22,194| p22,219| +25,000

Snip-----------------
Health care employment continued to grow in April (+37,000), with gains throughout the component industries. Over the year, health care has added 362,000 jobs. Employment in social assistance was up by 10,000 in April and has grown by 63,000 over the year.[/quote]

[url]http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm[/url]

Another bad job report even though the number is “plus 88,000.” Break it down and we have losses in Construction and Manufacturing again and large increases in government (direct government spending) and Health Services (53,000 and much is indirect government spending like in Medicare and Medicaid and the Prescription drug plan, etc.)

Leisure and Financial services are up and that is good and less indirect spending related to government.

However, the point is, if we were to carry this to an extreme, government related jobs drawing from tax revenues would outnumber the tax revenue from jobs that have to pay for government and government spending related jobs. At that point, we are in bankruptcy because we can no longer fund the government.

Socialism, the Democrats blocking this President and reforms is going to cause some serious problems. As the GAO (Gov. Accounting Office) says, we are on an "unsustainable" course and each worker now owes $400,000 as his part of the unfunded liability we face, according to them.

Tax cuts aren't going to change this trend much because we have 78 million workers retiring and that will be drawing social security and Medicare which is why the Social Security Admin says raise taxes 16% on Social Security and 121% on Medicare or cut benefits 13% and 75% respectively.

Tax revenues, that are currently rising and reducing the deficit (according to the public reports) are nothing significant in the long run. They could even get to a zero deficit and it won't help significantly without complete reform of taxes and entitlements. As the GAO state in this last report, the course is "unsustainable."

quote:
the federal government’s current fiscal policy is unsustainable. Continuing on this imprudent and unsustainable path will gradually erode, if not suddenly damage, our economy, our standard of living, and ultimately our domestic tranquility and national security.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07362sp.pdf
======================

It states in that report that the amount each worker has to contribute to keep the system funded is $400,000 over the next couple of decades. I defy the government to raise taxes enough to get workers to pay that and if they put it on business, which workers pay anyway, they will drive more business out of the U.S. If they try to put it on the wealthy, they will use the foundations, trusts, overseas accounts, tax free securities, or move as they are from France due to their tax rates.

Only reform of entitlements can stop the train wreck. Tax cuts and tax increases will no longer help either fund the programs or stimulate the economy enough to stop the collapse of the currency when nations stop loaning and move their wealth to other currencies or assets.

It is too late for either party to do much without a complete change of attitude of voters and that isn't going to happen until we hit bottom. One party just wants to get us to the bottom faster than the other and currently, it may be a toss-up as to which party that is.

The GOP can stimulate and get short term market gains and increase tax revenues but only by increasing spending that rises faster than revenues can keep up with in the long run. We have to control spending and the GOP isn't doing that. The DNC will lower spending some in some areas but not entitlements. The tax increases will drive more business and investments out of the U.S. as will the cost of doing business in a socialist nation competing against low tax capitalist nations with lower costs. If they put trade protections on, they will sanction and fine us through the WTO or cut down on loans to fund our debt.

There is no way we will get needed reforms in time to stop from having a very serious recession regardless of which party is in power once the "boomers" start retiring in mass and we start bringing in 67 to 100 million immigrants to replace them.

And yes, I certainly hope I am wrong that we have to and will hit bottom before we get the reforms we need and new leadership in both parties.

Old Man - last answers

"However, since the people reporting this are biased, B.S. probably won't accept it."

Without citations, I accept nothing, regardless of the bias of the reporter. The origin of your citation is well-sourced. But it's not really pertinent. I said the tax code ain't 67,000 pages, which it ain't.

"Quote: 'In my economics classes at Columbia University, I demonstrate the long-term value of gold by holding up a $20 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle gold coin. Prior to 1933, our grandparents carried this coin in their pockets as money. Back then, they could buy a tailor-made suit for one double eagle, or $20. Today, the Saint Gaudens coin, which is worth between $600 and $1,000, depending on its rarity and condition, can buy the same tailor-made suit.'
http://www.investmentu.com/IUEL/2005/20051212.html"

This appears to fail because the coin is a collectible. It weighs about 33 grams. At a bit under $11 per gram, the gold value of this coin is about $350. The rest of the value lies in its collectibility, which is obviously not a characteristic of circulating money. Try buying a tailer-made suit for $350.

It appears from this poor example that the real price of gold (as measured in tailor-made suits) has fallen by about 2/3 since 1930.

In reality, since the price of gold was controlled until 1968(?), this kind of comparison doesn't really work. Much better for you would be to point out how much more valuable gold is now than it was in 1967. Prices have risen about six-fold since then; gold has increased much more - from $35.50 to about $670 - about 19 times. Unfortunately, this is also not apt, since the artificial control of gold's price means that it was undervalued when the controls came off. Also, if you don't cherry-pick the start date, the scenario is not so rosy. Since 1975, gold's appreciated has trended very similarly to that of prices in general. What that means is that for 30 years, gold's value has been stagnant in real terms.

.
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