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Thursday, February 15, 2007
Alan Reynolds :: Townhall.com Columnist
Politics and Religion
by Alan Reynolds
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


When Jack Kennedy ran for president, there was a great deal of fussing and fuming about his being Catholic. In a June 1960 Roper poll, 35 percent objected to a Catholic president. Why? Did anyone really think he'd try to ban birth control, require eating fish on Fridays or consult with the pope on foreign policy?

Today, nobody would dare suggest that New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson is not admirably qualified to be president simply because he is a Catholic. It would have been equally repulsive if, in 2000, the pollsters and press had tried to make a pseudo-issue out of vice presidential candidate Joe Lieberman's religious orthodoxy. Few people today would dare tell a pollster they wouldn't vote for a Jewish or Catholic candidate, because that would make them look like fans of the Ku Klux Klan. The same goes for polls about voting for women and blacks. People may or may not do the right thing in the privacy of the voting booth, but it is easy to say the right thing.

There appears to be a different standard of civil decency, however, when it comes to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). Why? Is anyone really worried that Gov. Mitt Romney wants to bring back Prohibition? Does anyone think he might propose a 10 percent tithe (a members-only flat tax) to replace the welfare state as well as Mormons do?

Several years ago, an article in Slate by David Plotz put religion and politics into historical context. "In 1937," he found, "46 percent said they would vote for a Jewish presidential candidate, and 47 percent said they wouldn't. In 1999, 92 percent said they would vote for a Jew, and only 6 percent wouldn't. In 1958, 27 percent of Americans said they would not vote for a Catholic. In 1999, only 4 percent said they wouldn't. ... The free pass does not extend to all religions. Seventeen percent of Americans won't vote for a Mormon, the same as in 1967, the last time Gallup surveyed about Mormons. ... As for atheists, forget it. Only 49 percent of Americans would vote for an atheist presidential candidate."

Not to be outdone, a recent Rasmussen Report poll said, "43 percent of American voters say they would never even consider voting for a Mormon presidential candidate." Well, 45 percent also said they would never even consider voting for Hillary Clinton, but that hasn't slowed her down. And, as Plotz observed, only 49 percent are willing to vote for an atheist. But 49 percent is enough to win.

LDS television ads show that their pro-family beliefs are essentially indistinguishable from those of evangelical Christian groups, with whom they often form alliances. Yet "half of all evangelical Christians say that they would not consider voting for a Mormon candidate," according to the Rasmussen Report.

On the other hand, 21 percent of all voters (a much larger number than half of evangelicals) would not consider voting for an evangelical Christian candidate, according to a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll last July. Perhaps those who experience such intolerance should try being more tolerant of others.

Unless we are to believe that political intolerance of just one religious group (Mormons) has suddenly jumped from 17 percent to 43 percent in just a few years, there must be something wrong with these polls.

The fact that pollsters' questions single out only a few religions is suspicious. Why do they never ask voters if they'd shun Quakers, such as Presidents Nixon and Hoover; or Jehovah's Witnesses, like Eisenhower? What about Christian Scientists? What about the Trinity United Church of Christ?

Why not just ask more general questions such as, "Are you such a narrow-minded, intolerant religious bigot that for that reason alone you'd gladly reject the best candidate and let the other party win?"

When polling voters about a narrow list of religious affiliations, the questions become more and more about actual rather than hypothetical candidates as elections approach. In the polls of 1960, for example, respondents inclined to vote Republican might have shown far more tolerance toward Catholics in general if the particular Catholic in question did not happen to be a Democrat.

A Fox News poll last December asked registered voters whether or not a candidate's particular religious affiliation would make them more or less likely to vote for that candidate. On the Mormon question, 54 percent said it didn't matter and 9 percent said it would make them more likely to vote for the candidate (there are 6 million LDS members in this country). What is really fascinating, however, is that 38 percent of Democrats said they would be less likely to vote for a Mormon, compared with just 32 percent of Republicans and 25 percent of independents.

In that same poll, 41 percent of Democrats also said they would be less likely to vote for a Muslim candidate, which (with a 3 percent margin of error) is statistically no different from the percentage disinclined to vote for a Mormon. Has anti-Mormon bigotry suddenly become politically correct among Democrats, or do Democrats being polled know the LDS candidate is a Republican?

In any case, they surely know, as Bruce Wilson put it in the Salt Lake City Tribune, that "the state of Utah, with its overwhelming Mormon majority, is the reddest state of all. Most Americans also recognize that nationally known Mormon politicians are almost universally conservative Republicans, like Sens. Orrin Hatch and Bob Bennett. And, if they have Mormon friends and acquaintances, they have found most of them to be right of center on the political spectrum."

Suppose the Mormon presidential candidate in 2008 was Harry Reid of Nevada, the Senate majority leader, rather than Mitt Romney. Would pollsters still be telling us that 38 percent of Democrats are less likely to vote for a Mormon? And who, except the pollsters and press, could possibly be surprised if the answer changed? This is mostly about politics, not religion.

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Who are Jehovah's Witnesses
Mormons vote JW's do not.

Who are Jehovah's Witnesses?

The central core dogma of the Watchtower is Jesus second coming (invisibly) in 1914 and is a lie.Jehovah's Witnesses are a spin-off of the man made Millerite movement of 1840.

A destructive cult of false teachings, that frequently result in spiritual and psychological abuse, as well as needless deaths (bogus blood transfusion ban).

Yes,you can 'check out anytime you want but you can never leave',because they can and will hold your family hostage.

The world has the Internet now,and there are tens of thousands of pages up from defrauded Jehovah's Witnesses like myself who have been abused by the Watchtower cult.

The Watchtower is a truly Orwellian world.
----
Danny Haszard Jehovah's Witness X 33 years and 3rd generation http://www.freeminds.org

Slightly off topic...
Whenever I read about politics and religion i can't help but recall one of the greatest intellectualy smackdowns I have ever seen.

For those who have not seen the 2000 debate between Alan Keyes and Alan Dershowitz on the importance of religion in politics ought to look for a video or a transcript (though the video does far more justice to Dershowitz's self-destruction)

Sorry for veering slightly off topic, I just wanted to enlighten.

Troubled a bit....
Romney may well be qualified as a political leader to run for President.

Yes, Mormons do promote a pro-family agenda, but they are far from Evangelical Christians.

Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers, and Father God chose Jesus' plan of salvation over Satan's.

Mormons believe that men will be gods of their own planet when they die, with many spirit wives. This is where poligamy comes from.

"The Lorenzo Snow couplet expresses a true statement: 'As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.'"
Seventy Bruce C. Hafen
The Broken Heart: Applying the Atonement to Life's Experiences, 1989, p.133

There is a lot of dark secrets in Mormonism that truly is scary. Check out these websites about Mormonism:

http://www.mrm.org/
http://mormonismexposed.blogspot.com/
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1842Wilm.htm
http://www.fishthe.net/pages/Discernment_of_Cults/Mormonism/

I studied to become a Mormom over 30 years ago, but did not. It is not a religion that is friendly to women.

Romney may be a great leader. He may even be a good president. But someone who believes that he will someday become a god, that scares me....

Kath
Those are lies lies and lies. I am an LDS member and none of that is true. We are all Gods children and if you twist that to mean the devil to then so be it. We all know the devil is a fallen angel and was banished from the presence of God. Where do angels come from? Are they not children of God?

The Church does not preach that we will be God but that we need to follow in his foot steps to be more like him. We must follow the example set by Christ as he is the way.

The sites you posted are pure trash with an agenda. I highly doubt you actually studied the Church or the Book of Mormon. However you are perfect free to think what you want, even if it based on false information.

jcdean1978
I was a Mormon for 3 years and yes indeed, the Church does teach that the cream of the LDS crop will become gods and goddesses, create worlds and populate them. It also teaches that unmarried women will not ascend to the highest level of heaven.

I don't have any problem voting for an LDS member though I would not become one again for all the money in the world. If Mr. Romney could, for example, reform welfare to fit the LDS template (which is in many respects an improvement over the 19th century model touted by Gertrude Himmelfarb), he would have established his place in history with a crown of stars to boot. And since the Marching Mommies are already ready to stand smokers and drinkers before firing squads, I can't see where that would be a problem for most lefties either.

Adultery and fornication, of course, are the two things the LDS church frowns on that the lefties could not give up. But then again, most of our current government would agree with that prohibition although more of them agree with it than practice it. So again, where's the beef?

Big tent, or media plot?
Sometimes I question the sincerity of those who claim that the Republican party is the "big tent" party. I find it strange that they love Mormon's contributions and votes, but not a Mormon candidate.

On the other hand, the whole "Mormon issue" may be just the main stream media's attempt to create and sustain an issue in the hopes to derail the candidate best suited to defeat the Democratic nominee.

Kath
" But someone who believes that he will someday become a god, that scares me...."


At least he thinks it will happen in the future. What scares me is people who think they are a god NOW, such as Hillary.

Theologian in Chief
Bobinator,

Great point. Let us all remember that we are not electing a Theologian in Chief. Yes, we all have our theological differences. The question is, does the candidate live out and advocate the values we hold dearly?

Let us not forget, "27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1. The big focus is not getting every belief exactly right.

Evangelicals focus highly on the right beliefs. This is good and important. But, with divorce rates in the evangelical church as high as outside, along with many other social indicators, maybe we need to begin focusing more on the path of righteousness. We are instructed to evaluate a tree by its fruit.

As mentioned by others, we have a very limited field of candidates, none anywhere near perfect. We are electing a political leader. Will we choose one that promotes righteousness and can win, or will we smugly choose someone practically ensured to lose, so we can feel good about our "purity" as our society continues its slide?????

Good point
What follows from Reynolds article is that what is relevant is not the percentage of people who would not vote for a candidate of a particular religion, but the number of people who would not vote for a candidate whose political views they otherwise approve of because of their religion.

If it is true, as Reynolds suggests, that democrats who say they would not vote for a mormon do so because they assume he would be a conservative republican, then that does not much affect Romney's chances since those people aren't likely to vote for a republican regardless. But if the Republicans who said that they would not vote for a mormon did so despite the fact that they assume it would be a conservative republican, then Romney has real problems, because those voters are the ones he needs to get the primary nod, and then needs again in the general election.

On the otherhand the jump from 17 percent to 43 percent is suspicious and unlikely to be explanable in terms of party affiliation.

Media
Bobinator,

Yes to your other point as well. Note that the liberals are smart enough to stay united, and not worry about whether they see everything the same.

Are we gullible enough to fall for the media's obvious manipulation to divide us? Remember, they want us to lose!!!!

Are these junk polls?
Many polls are skewed by the way they form the question. I don't think the majority of the American people are that shallow. Being POUS is a job. I don't know anyone who thinks there should be a religious test on being fit for a job.

Personally, I would lean toward the constitutionalist (not the breathing one) even if he worships a rock. Understanding of Declaration principles is also a must.

Questions re LDS
Mitt Romney seems to be a very decent man, and I am a very tolerant person. At the same time, I have some qualms about voting for a Mormon for president.

Why? According to Mormon teaching, when Joseph Smith asked God which church was the correct one, God replied that they all were 'abominations'. That doesn't sound very tolerant, does it?

Mormons are taught that theirs is the only true religion. They even collect the names of millions around the world, then Baptize them in Mormon temples to help them in the world to come. Some of my good Catholic, Congregationalist, Baptist and Methodist ancestors have been so baptized, and it's somewhat offensive and annoying.

The problem with the LDS is that it is aggressively evangelistic, working hard at converting the rest of us. While I respect all faiths, the LDS teaches an enormous amount of unsubstantiated nonsense. For example, until fairly recent years it taught that Blacks were black because they had been cursed by God, etc. Brigham Young was a staunch defender of slavery. The LDS also promote a wierd form of fundamentalism that conflicts with science, history and common sense. I have to question the intelligence and integrity of those Mormons who have been exposed to the beyond-Utah world and still adhere to such a myopic and narrow faith.

I guess I'm also concerned that the Mormon hierarchy will exploit the election of a Mormon as president to further their faith, a faith that is at odds with so much that has been proven. For example, who can believe that humankind was created in Eden roughly 6000 years ago? Mormons do! It's difficult to think of the US president embracing such fantasies.

On the other hand, like devout Muslims, faithful Mormons are strict believers and abide by an admirable set of ethnics. They don't drink alcohol, promote healthy family life (only one wife since 1890, contrary to Brigham Young's belief), etc.

I think that Mormonism is sufficiently opposed by more traditional fundamentalists that Romney will not be nominated. There is such a wide gap between the LDS and mainstream fundamentalism. Millions of Christians think of Mormonism as a cult and not a legitimate expression of the Christian faith.

Keep smiling.

Our Memories Work Just Fine, Thanks
Some of us are remembering that when John Kerry ran for the Presidency we were told that not he nor any Catholic candidate should be allowed to take Communion unless he made a public stand against Roe v Wade. We also read that the Bush administration contacted the Vatican's US representative to request that policy statement. Meanwhile we heard all over the place that Evangelical Christians were morally superior to the rest of us---I remember one born-again woman, being interviewed on television, saying clearly that Kerry's being a Catholic didn't count as him being a Christian "because he doesn't have a personal relationship with God". We recall also the Terri Schiavo circus when Terri's parents constantly appeared with Father Frank Pavone, who was soon off to his next gig founding the first-ever order of Catholic priests devoted not to pastoral care or cloistered work and prayer but to political action. Then of course we had Bush pouring public funds into religion-based agencies which were (and still are) permitted to proselytize and discriminate (you don't want your tax money funding NPR, and we don't want ours used to teach children to sing "Jesus Wants Me For a Sunbeam"). Not to mention Ashcroft having a great big velvet curtain made (at taxpayer expense) to cover up a classical frieze because his religiosity was offended by the sight of bare breasts. So you will pardon us, folks, if we are wary of any candidate who makes a public show of his religion. We've now had a six-year dose of religion infused into public policy. Get this straight: we don't want religion running our country. We don't want the tenets of ANY religion dictating public policy because in a nation that permits diversity there is no possible way not to offend some citizens with any religious action---which is why our ancestors founded a secular state. Regarding Romney, Mormons are well-known to use their faith in a very showy way. Let candidates keep their religion private. And let the government respect the privacy of our religious lives.

Free speech
Lilly says "Let candidates keep their religion private. And let the government respect the privacy of our religious lives."

Oh, sure, let's limit the speech of candidates. That is the solution. They should be told in no uncertain terms that they shall not discuss matters of faith. And notice the final sentence: respect the privacy of our religious lives. Dear reader, translate: you can believe whatever you want as long as you are silent about it. Into the closet, you second rate citizens.

And as proof we take the words of some unknown woman who is supposedly born again. What a great methodology!!! We will go interview all sorts of individuals, find the most wacky statements, and then find out that he or she is a Democrat. And that will provide justification for condemning all of liberalism!!!!

And yes, we do not want morality and principles brought into the public square, if so enlightened by spiritual beliefs or practices. That sure will make for an improved society!!!! Just think how that would have improved history. No Mahatma Gandhi, he talked about God and prayer!!! No Martin Luther King, he referred to stories from the bible. No Abraham Lincoln or George Washinton, they called God for support. No abolition movement, after all the author of Uncle Tom's Cabin was a devout Christian, and most abolitionist meetings and speeches took place in churches.

Oh, of course we would still have our Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin. Thank the cosmos they never advocated for God.

Yes, onto your brave new world, all non-spiritual citizens. Show us the true path, as you have in the past!!!!!



To Ekstasis
Feel free to be as spiritual as you want. I would gladly defend your right to worship as you please. But if you force your religion on me, then I take offense. Think of it this way. Each of us lives in a house. We are next-door neighbors. Please stay in your own house. When you swarm all over my porch and crawl in my windows, I won't allow it. And what is sound religion-based morality for you may not be for me. I get to choose. If you want to keep Kosher, I don't have to. If you want to pray to Allah, I don't have to. If you believe in the intercession of the saints, I don't have to. If you believe in ancestral baptism, I don't have to. If you want to disdain abortion and contraception, I don't have to. The whole point of a secular nation is not to keep morality out of the public square---that's a right-wing red herring. It is to protect the right of each citizen not to be coerced. And the Bush administration has failed to protect that right.

Neighbors
Lilly,

Thanks for your thoughtful response! I suppose if each of us lived in our houses without a lot of interaction your model would be workable. However, every day we all mix together, and everyone is, whether consciously or unconsciously, is busy advocating their own ideas.

This is what makes America great!! We are all subject to everyone else's political, philisophical, and religious ideas. Isn't it wonderful!! We do expect this marketplace of ideas to take place respectfully. And we are free to accept or reject, agree or disagree, with what we hear.

But let's remember, it is all about free speech. It would be a terrible mistake to know say "I don't want to hear about your religion (or philosophy, or values). Keep it to yourself." What a tragedy it would be. OK, so maybe sometimes it is a bit inconvenient to be subject to someone's ideas. Inconvenience sure beats tyranny!!!!!

Lilly and Ekstasis
Lilly, a person running for office does not stop holding his beliefs because he does so. A devout Catholic *is* likely to be against Roe v. Wade, and should say so. It would most likely be something influenced by his faith--you can't separate faith from positions. To do so requires, essentially taking on the positions of a different faith. Democracy works by whether or not you can convince enough other people of your positions. So a pro-life candidate who couldn't convince people of position isn't going to win. It's not about whether he's Catholic or not (lots of non-Catholics are also pro-life), but about whether his views, influenced by faith or not influenced by faith, are something that he can convince the majority of voters are something that would be good for the country, and which aren't unconstitutional establishment of a state religion. Something being a religious position doesn't necessarily disqualify it. Being an anti-abortionist based on one's Biblical interpretations will incline one to vote for pro-life candidates. Then again, if you're pro-abortion based on Biblical interpretation (a man who deliberately strikes a woman so she miscarries is Biblically not guilty of murder, after all), then the pro-choice supporters are likely to support you. Trying to legislate based on one's moral beliefs is what's expected of an elected official. Trying to, say, insist that a person must be a baptized Anglican or must deny all religious belief or whatever, is antidisestablishmentarian. (Woo-hoo, used it in a sentence! ;p)

As Kerry showed, not all Catholics take the birth control or abortion issues as major points. Does it mean giving up the backing of the church? Well, yes, the same as being pro-life means giving up the backing of Planned Parenthood, but that's going to happen no matter what's influencing one's opinions. The Catholic Church does have free speech as much as anyone else, after all. It's ultimately up to voters whether or not the backing of the Church is a good or bad thing.

What we're seeing with the anti-Mormonism is something quite different. This is fairly classic anti-group prejudice, with hate-sites popping up and spreading all sorts of twisted up half-truths and outright lies, and people refusing to vote for a Mormon not because of a particular stance a candidate has taken, but because he's a member of a group that's not accepted in various circles. I grew up around Mormons and I'm reasonably conversant in the theology. I don't agree with it, but then, I don't agree with a lot of different religions out there. Would I vote for some wacky polygamist living on a compound in Idaho? No... but then, I've never met a Mormon who would, either. Crazy people of any faith aren't going to fare well in a general election. Would I vote for Mitt Romney individually? Probably not, but that's because I'm from Massachusetts, and was less than thrilled with his inability to get a handle on the Big Dig. His Mormonism is no more an issue than Kennedy's Catholocism.

Oops, forgot Ekstasis
"Inconvenience sure beats tyranny!!!!!"

Yes--if there's a way to summarize, that's it. Sure, we're going to bump up against each other and be left aghast that someone could actually believe such-and-such, and that person is equally aghast that we believe whatever we do, but that's part of the vibrant, creative religious community we have. And the fact that anyone can stand for office without a religious litmus test is one of the great glories of it, even if it confounds some people and ends up annoying and frustrating others. Generally speaking, we handle it pretty well, just pouting on whichever side loses the majority, then gearing up to try again in the next cycle. And where there's no majority to be had, we mostly just, well... get along. It's pretty spiffy, actually.

wolf in sheeps clothing
I would vote for anybody over Mitt.

wow
I remember JFK. In a filmed interview, he was grilled by some prominent minister to insure that he would not let his religion influence his decisions as president. Boy, the worm has really turned over the years. Now that certain religious groups have tasted earthly power they don’t mind that the president is influenced by his faith.

Orthodoxy VS Ecumenist Slush
Sadly, the chaos of Religious indifferentism is reaping a harvest of Confusion. The idea of our President's religion being un important is about like saying it 'doesn't matter what plane you get on at the airport'. What you believe strongly affects how you will lead. The Eastern Orthodox has a strong link to the very earliest Church and the very outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. There is noteably on Russian Orthodox Church, one Greek Orthodox Church and One Romanian Orthodox Church. What can we claim as a common faith? Of course in the name of 'diversity' we can claim nothing but a chaotic salad of just about anything you want to believe. After all it is a matter of 'personal preference'.
As for the LDS, it is a very recent innovation 'discovered' by Mr. Joe Smith in upstate NY, who supposedly was visited by angel Moroni. Angel Moroni gave him a look at the gold plates which contained a new revelation that he could translate into a King James English-- odd considering it was the 19th Century, but oh well. Sadly the gold plates vanished when Joe was finished translating them, but we have Joe's promise that he did see the Angesl and the plates.
And this is the Church which could be foundational for our next President.
I suppose the other candidates have even more exotic religious notions.

Orthodoxy VS Ecumenist Slush
Sadly, the chaos of Religious indifferentism is reaping a harvest of Confusion. The idea of our President's religion being un important is about like saying it 'doesn't matter what plane you get on at the airport'. What you believe strongly affects how you will lead. The Eastern Orthodox has a strong link to the very earliest Apostolic age and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. There is noteably on Russian Orthodox Church, One Greek Orthodox Church and One Romanian Orthodox Church. What can we claim as a common faith? Of course in the name of 'diversity' we can claim nothing but a chaotic salad of just about anything you want to believe. After all it is a matter of 'personal preference'.
As for the LDS, it is a very recent innovation 'discovered' by Mr. Joe Smith in upstate NY, who supposedly was visited by Angel Moroni. Angel Moroni gave him a look at the gold plates which contained a new revelation that he could translate into a King James English-- odd, considering it was the 19th Century, but oh well. Sadly the gold plates vanished when Joe was finished translating them, but we have Joe's promise that he did see the Angel and the plates.
And this is the Church which could be foundational for our next President.
I suppose the other candidates have even more exotic religious notions.

Another fake conservative
That he might be able to beat Hillary is insufficient qualification.

Next ?

Order of importance
A person who believes in the Christian God serves his God first. Not his nation.

It is the God who created us that we owe our allegiance to. If our president serves himself or a false God, that is a problem. Maybe not a perceived problem to the majority of voters, but it is to God. If we desire our nation to have God's blessing, we should elect those who serve the true God.

Many of you will disagree with my view of the true God. I only speak for myself to offer a point of view I hold valid.

So the problem is not that we could not elect a mormon who has similar social values with our cause, it it that we are disconcerted with having to choose between the lesser of evils again.

Your point?
>The LDS also promote a wierd form of fundamentalism that conflicts with science, history and common sense.<

Just like all religions

Utahnotmormon
Hope your meeting with God goes better than I expect it to. Being God, he probably has a really good comeback after you tell him how stupid he is.

Fuzzy
I'm not concerned, but you should be. You sound a lot more evil than any Mormon I know, and I know lots of them.

Utahnotmormon
I think you must mean God is evil since I am not inclined to punish anyone for not believing in him.

Science, History, & Common Sense
Utahnotmormon,

Sorry to pile on, but I cannot resist.

And there are those, thinking they have freed themselves from religion, that believe that time plus chance resulted in all life on earth. Yes, blind chance brought it all about, presto!! They have now, starting with Charles Darwin, created their own tale of how life came to be. Oh yes, although they have never been able to come up with a plausible explanation for how life began, cannot begin to explain how incredibly complex cellular chemical processes came about (irreducible complexity), cannot explain complex organs, and cannot explain how in a brief 10 million year period all the advanced phyla developed (Cambrian explosion), they reign triumphant on campus. And how do they handle questions and challenges? By coercion, getting people fired, refusing to publish, etc. And please, whatever you do, don't ask them why all the laws of nature are finely calibrated to allow for life (specified complexity). They will tell you about infinite numbers of parallel universes with a straight face, all without a shred of real evidence.

Oh yes, but please keep in mind that they are smarter and more sophisticated than the rest of us. They call religious people "fundies" in their sneering tones. They know all the right people, and go to all the right parties. And they all slap each other on the back in a self-congratulatory manner, full of pride and vanity.

Be happy that you are not one of them!!!!!

sorry jcdean
I studied Mormonism for years. I almost became a Mormon because of *get this* the Osmonds in the in 1970's!!! Their squeaky clean image and pro-family stance intrigued me. Their album "The Plan" is Mormon doctrine set to music!

I'm sorry if you disagree, but the truth is out there regarding this religion. I do not want to spend eternity pregnant, giving birth to spirit babies by my husband-god. This is no where to be found in the Bible, and was made up by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

Well, we have the House and Senate seats
It seems that the effort to get a good man in the White house is a supernatural project, so let us pray.
As for House and Senate, well, perhaps here and there we can hope to get a real God-Fearing Christian into office. There are a few up there.
I believe we are diverted by the Televison Hype to ignore Congress and the Senate. Take a look at the Seats coming open in your own Congressional District, and as for the President Race---- Pray for a Miracle.

fuzzy and utah et al.
fuzzy and utah - u kids go outside and settle this. us grownups (THERE'S a whopper!) are having a talk.

"Bush worships the Canaanite Diety (sic) at Bohemian Grove" - wtf are you talking about?

One cannot be pro-choice and a good Catholic. If a Catholic who supports abortion takes communion it is invalid and he or she knows it - the names John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi of course immediately come to mind. The present issue of Catholic World Report has a good piece on the subject.

The Catholic Church has always taught that life is sacred from conception until natural death and that is the basis behind its ban on abortion.

MSM choices for me and you in 08
The tabloid MSM has already decided for you and me who the frontrunners are going to be.
It will be Rudy "the weirdo crossdressing freak", and Mitt "the liberal Morman prettyboy" Romney.
The tabloid MSM you see, they have already divised the dividing plan of the party of liberty.
They know that true conservatives will flee when a liberal in conservative clothing will arise to be the party nominee.

Their sensational story in Nov will see, Hillary is President the first women ever to be.

4 yrs of hell will ensue, and by 2012 we will all be broken and blue.

Liberty will hardly shine it's light and we will still be fighting to secure our god given rights.

To our troops fighting afar, were fighting at home to make your purpose true, so you can come home and enjoy the greatest and best liberty too.

I hope America will learn the lesson, that eternal vigilence for individual freedom is our birthright, our purpose, and should be our passion.



Vote for liberty in 08 from the tyranny of big government and the tabloid MSM.

Uncle Max
Uncle Max. He started it.

Ok. Ok. I'm going to my room.

Vote for Mormon, yes; for a Muslim???
I'm from MA where Mitt was governor. Although he's not my first choice for prez, i would vote for him in a heartbeat. He's a good manager, of the Winter Olympics and in private business. His Mormon religion played zero role in the way he governed, but i believe it has made him the genuinely nice (but tough) guy he is.

But I can't see my tolerance being so wide as to vote for a Muslim, especially under present circumstance, one would always suspect him/her of wanting to put US under sharia law.

How many TH readers would be so open minded as to vote for a Muslim?

Religion in Politics
About the only candidate I could not vote for would be a humanist or a relativist.

I know it is not true for all those who have evolved from pond scum, but having everything relative and tolerating everyone's viewpoint is not wise, however noble it might be.

It gives credence to the Jihadists' belief that killing the Infidel is not only okay, but a good thing.

It gives credence to the belief that killing the unborn is okay, for no other reason but convenience.

It leads one to think that all other countries' view points are as valid as our own, despite evidence to the contrary.

It teaches children to be self-centered, self-serving and self-aggrandizing, not the qualities of a well adjusted citizen or a good leader.

I do not believe such a person could lead in the best interests of the USA.

If you won't stand on principle for anything, you will compromise with anyone, including the devil, whether you believe in him or not.

Mormon Doctrine
For those who have are still humble enough to think they may not know everything.

Which of the following is most likely?

1) The outlandish things that people say is what Mormons believe really is Mormon doctrine and someone as obviously intelligent as Mitt Romney is somehow cannot think straight when it comes to religion although you can.

2) The outlandish things that people say is what Mormons believe really is NOT Mormon doctrine and what IS Mormon doctrine is believable by intelligent people.

I'm not saying you have to believe it yourself. But consider that you may not really know very much truth about the topic at hand.

And finally, the discussion of the "topic at hand" for the most part revolves around people saying "Mormons are weird and stupid therefore how can you think of voting for Mitt Romney." What doesn't enter into their closed minds is that who Romney is and what he has accomplished does not square with "Mormons are weird and stupid."

Whom to hate?
Reynolds wrote: "In that same poll, 41 percent of Democrats also said they would be less likely to vote for a Muslim candidate, which (with a 3 percent margin of error) is statistically no different from the percentage disinclined to vote for a Mormon. Has anti-Mormon bigotry suddenly become politically correct among Democrats, or do Democrats being polled know the LDS candidate is a Republican?"

Your guy said: "Live by the sword, die by the sword." Does this apply to religious bigotry, which Townhall has been promoting nonstop? Heaven forbid that religious bigotry should fall on Christians instead of Muslims!

Also interesting, conservative Christians are leary of a Morman president, not as much as Democrats, but still leary. If Romney does not get the Republican nomination, it's bigorty from Republicans, not Democrats, that will be partly to blame.

What is this?
What's all this talk about hate? Can't we vote for who we like best? Is it odd we would vote for people who we believe share our values?

That is not hate and it is WEIRD that anyone would think it is.

Honestly, some people are so programmed to think hate is everywhere.

And

As for Robm's interesting commentary: Yes, seemingly reasonable people do believe in weird things. Have you seen Al Gore? That is the whole point of the column.

I have no idea yet what Mitt really believes. So I can only make modest judgments on his character by the religion he has freely chosen to place his faith in. I have no basis to hate him for his choice. I fervently disagree with his choice and if he puts real faith in it, it reflects on his judgement.

This is tough, if you ask me
Romney is seemingly a solid condadte.

Mormon's, for better or worse, worry some,including me.

Why do Mormon's cause concern? Is it because they claim to be Christian (when in fact, that is questionable?) Is it because they tend to pay first attention to their own? Is it because they are mostly secluded in Utah? is it because they tend to become very powerful in positions and dictate the terms?

I dunno. But Mormon's somehow are different. Personally, I think they are fine mislead people. I would have a hard time voting for one if an equally qualified opposition candidate existed.

Take it for what it is...

Order of Importance
Fuzzy writes: Thursday, February, 15, 2007 3:47 PM
Order of importance
A person who believes in the Christian God serves his God first. Not his nation.

It is the God who created us that we owe our allegiance to. If our president serves himself or a false God, that is a problem. Maybe not a perceived problem to the majority of voters, but it is to God. If we desire our nation to have God's blessing, we should elect those who serve the true God.

Many of you will disagree with my view of the true God. I only speak for myself to offer a point of view I hold valid.

So the problem is not that we could not elect a mormon who has similar social values with our cause, it it that we are disconcerted with having to choose between the lesser of evils again.
----------------------------------------
Yes, yes.

The problem with your analysis is that it projects an altruism to exist in the absence of any morality. In other words, the manner in which I serve my God includes being honest, kind, and altruistic.

I suppose this behavior is possible from an atheist, but I have yet to witness such action, nor seen a single instance of it in the general populace. The sum total of atheists I have met personally (not the agnostic fake kind) have been the most bitter people I've ever experienced. I have also observed that the same people all possessed the premise that their ideas and opinions should drive everything based upon nothing more than their own immediate satisfaction.

However, I do agree that so far we are basically being asked to choose between the lesser of two evils. I haven't seen a 2008 candidate yet that is either conservative or a defender of human life.

I can't believe what I'm reading
And here I thought this was a political forum!

I hope everyone can see that this is what the MSM wants. They were beside themselves that W was able to rally the conservative christian vote and win in '04. I am not passing judgement on the success of his presidency, I am dissapointed in many things, but would Kerry have been better? Let's not fall prey (not pray, no pun intended) to the MSM's trap of dividing us conservatives. I enthuastically support Romney. Yes, he has flipped, but has not floped back. The moves have all been to the right. Usually converts to a cause are the most outspoken proponents of the new cause. If Romney is truly a convert, who could better articulate the argument?

If we take the conversion to more conservative principals as genuine, then he is more to the evangelical (christian right) liking than Guliani or McCain. Face it, with the front loaded primary, these are the choices.

We have the rest of the year to evaluate our candidates. There is no reason to spend it bickering about religion.

A follow-up
Reasonable people can disagree about faith. That is why it is called faith, not knowledge. So let's agree to disagree and fight a common enemy, liberals. If we evaluate the potential candidates we find (at this point)

Guliani:
Not religious
Pro abortion
Questionable personal morals
Pro defense, but pro illegal immigrant
Pro gun control

McCain:
Hates religion, but trying to pretend he doesn't
Pro life, but pro embryo stem cell research
Pro illegal immigrant
Unpredictable. You never know what to expect

Gingrich:
Very conservative in all the right areas
Questionable personal decisions
More negatives than Hillary in the electorate as a whole. He can't win a general election.

Romney:
Recent pro life convert-a flip
Pro equal rights (including gays), but against special rights like gay marriage-not really a flip
Strong fiscal conservative
Proven willing to use the veto pen which will be inevitable in the next congress.
Pro security, both defense and de fence (border)

Although I am pulling for Romney, I will eventually support any of the above (except McCain) against the Democratic nominee.

Intolerance
" Why? According to Mormon teaching, when Joseph Smith asked God which church was the correct one, God replied that they all were 'abominations'. That doesn't sound very tolerant, does it?"
The majority of people posting AGAINST Mormonism here sound pretty intolerant to me. A good deal of traditional Christian sects believe that Mormon, Jewish, or any other belief systems are abominations because the belief is different than theirs. All religions are intolerant of one another in the strict sense that they don't believe that the others have as much truth as they do. Do most religions accept people for who they are (not into their congregations of course)? Yes. Mormonism is no exception, and neither is Mitt Romney.

Who is making the choices???
We are brought out a plate of candidate choices, served up to us by a left humanist liberal anti christian media and are told, 'These are your choices', 'Take your pick!'
Could it not be that we have other options than what the pagans at CNN and NBC and CBS and ABC suggest to us?
I have a novel idea.
Go for a day with out the one eyed MOLOCH, TV.
Shut yourself in a room alone for a few minutes and pray to God, asking Him to bring a real alternative to all of these Socialists with Holly-wierd Stage Presence.
It could very well be that another more worthy leader has yet to be 'baptised' by the experts.
Perhaps even a Christian? That would be a miracle.
Would leave out just about every last one the media has deemed worthy to talk about.

I doubt that anyone like Pat Buchanan is available at present, but who knows?

WOW! to Muscat,
1) Just look at these venomous posts. Who would want to run and face this? And we are supposedly all on the same side.

2) Money. Like it or not, no one could enter the fray and raise the necessary cash.

3) Whatever you may think about LDS beliefs, Romney is true to his faith, true to his wife and family = more likely to be true to you.

Oh, Mit
I have studied the LSD church, and let me tell you, its a very reasonable religion. For instance, did you know Jesus actually visited the United States before his death? He did. How do we know this? Because good old Joe Smith found some "golden plates" in New England that said so, that's why. Yeah, they were hidden right there in a mountain. He just needed an angel to tell you where they were hidden. Also, if you ever meet a Mormon priest, you should ask him to put in a good word with God (or, maybe an angel) for you.

What an enlightening religion. Let's just hope God suggests to Mit some good countries to war with.

But, you know, the whole Mormon issue may go away come election time when Mit "evolves" and seeks a more red-state friendly religion.

Mit in '08!!!!

To jcdean1978
I'm a conservative evangelical Christian and I would vote for a Mormon who can show, just like almost (probably not an atheist) any other candidate, that he shares my values. In politics, values are more important than the beliefs that give rise to those values. For example, there are plenty of liberals who call themselves Christians (some actually are) and supposedly share my religious beliefs, yet I wouldn't vote for them because their social and political values are antithetical to mine.

When proposing a state referendum against legalizing gay marriage, should Christian supporters of the referendum encourage other Christians to vote for it but discourage Muslims from voting on it at all simply because their beliefs are much different? If instead a Muslim group had first proposed and written the referendum, should Christians vote against it or abstain even though it promotes a shared value/policy goal?

I'd also argue that most politicians change their positions with very little regard for their core beliefs, but rather out of political necessity. If Romney commits himself to strong pro-life and pro-traditional marriage positions, then we have to assess the risk that he would flip and flop once elected. We all (including Romney) saw how conservatives forced Bush to eliminate some poor "short list" candidates for the Supreme Court, so do we really think Romney can get away with betraying social conservative principles? With respect to Supreme Court nominations, which represent the greatest impact he could have on abortion and marriage, it seems clear that he could not. Even though Romney's core beliefs (political and religious) might not always be compatible with those of most social conservatives, he has already committed himself to conservative values and policy positions that he cannot change without paying a politically fatal price.

I will also point out that Thomas Jefferson was one of the few true deists among the Founding Fathers, yet he made a conscious effort to respect Christian beliefs and traditions, even attending church himself. Jefferson acknowledged that America's founding was based firmly in the Christian principle of God-given rights that transcend and supersede the state, and that a Christian populace was essential to the rule of law in the American constitutional system of government.

----

Now my questions for jcdean1978:

(1) Since you disagree with every other explanation of the major theological differences between Mormonism and evangelical Christianity offered here, I would be interested to read your explanation of those differences. It has been my experience with several Mormons I've known that they try to obscure and avoid discussing any differences and repeatedly assert that their beliefs are just the same as every other Christian's. I know I can't validly generalize such behavior to all Mormons, but I did find it disturbing to witness the same behavior from three Mormons, only two of whom knew each other.

(2) What would you offer as the best reasons for an evangelical to convert to LDS?

Ekstasis
Excellent posts... but you are not respecting the atheists' firmly held belief that science is rational and therefore directly opposed to science. They will not deal with the scientific evidence you presented because their belief is not based on a preponderance of such evidence or the ability to respond with their own contradictory evidence, but rather on pure faith that defies incredible odds and accepted rules of logic. All we can do is point out their absurd ways of avoiding the evidence, such as the unsupported "infinite numbers of parallel universes" argument you mentioned, and expose them to apologetics arguments that most of them have never encountered in their cloistered intellectual lives.

If any atheists want to expand their understanding of their own faith, please read my posts under Jay Sekulow's recent column:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=you%e2%80%99re_opposed_to_same-sex_marriage--you_must_be_a_member_of_the_ku_klux_klan&ns=JaySekulow&dt=02/05/2007&page=full&comments=true#994aa84d-e280-4aa8-9b5f-943456764883

Townfather
To answer your question, I could not vote for a Muslim, not only because I would "suspect him/her of wanting to put US under sharia law," but because I have good reason to believe that any given Muslim would lie about his intentions. The Muslim doctrine of Takiyya supposedly gives them the right and duty to lie to infidels in order to advance Islam.

It's not about religion
My observation of Mormonism is that they do not let their churches be used for political speech or meetings of any kind. As an institution, the Church is very neutral. As individuals, clearly most LDS are conservative Republicans. But one is free to believe politically as he likes: Moe Udall was Democrat and ran for President. Romney is a Republican. Harry Reid, the Senate Majority leader is Mormon, as is Orrin Hatch and others on the Republican side.

We must advocate for our political views based upon the best evidence we have that is common to us all. Not on our religion beliefs, that are accepted by only a few of us. There are plenty of good reasons to be Pro-Life, based upon social and physical science, philosophy and sound reasoning. For scientific corroboration of many religious views, I suggest the book, UNPROTECTED, by Dr. Anonymous. Liberals won't like it because it is unsupportive of their positions, and is based upon science.
We should be able to persuade others to our views based on logic and argument, without resort to religion.
Having said that, the values one espouses tend to control our thinking about the evidence we consider. People tend to make judgments based on emotion, and then find the logic or rational to support their positions.
It's a rare person who truly reasons with his mind only, and not his heart.

lib in disguise...
Romney's flip-floppin' proves he has no concrete beliefs - that he will tell "the flock" what is necessary for him to get elected. Romney (like all candidates) should be judged by his past voting record.

The Great Patriot:
Modern Christianity believes that a Man who walked two thousand years ago is God incarnate and the only proof of this belief is the words of a book. To an outsider this basis on which an argument stands on is just as crazy. Mormonism bases its faith on similar principles, just a different time. If Jesus were to come today instead of two thousand years ago, He would have met the same opposition as He did in His own time, because it is hard for a prophet to be accepted among his own. The same thing happened with Joseph Smith: He went against the grain of traditional beliefs and was eventually killed for it. In now way can Joseph Smith be compared to Jesus Christ, but the principle is the same; and bigotry exists no matter how good a person is.

There was a Presidential Candidate
Named Al Smith, I believe. He ran against Hoover. Al lost because he was a Catholic. People actually believed that if Al was elected he was going to have a tunnel dug under the Atlantic so he could secretly go visit the Pope.

JFK
Using JFK as a role model for Catholics was a big mistake, because as his wife Jackie said "Jack is a very poor Catholic." Politics easily overuled his religious convictions. What has made our nation great is the Christian nature of our Founding Fathers that caused them to allow free exercise of religion not to separate it from the state but to allow the moral values of religion to be a positive influence on politics. That consideration has long been contested with an attempt to separate church from state that has wrecked our unity and almost paganized our nation. I don't believe Mitt would sacrifice his freedom to exercise his religion by trying to force his beliefs on anyone. He should be evaluated as a candidate for President based on his moral stand on the critical issues that strenuously seek to divide and destroy our nation's religious nature.

BUSH CHANGED EVERYTHING!

BUSH IN THE GARDEN OF GOOD AND EVIL... George Bush is the first American President expressing Christian certitude in his Presidential decisions. God even speaks to Bush, and as the President told the press, he consulted with and got an answer from “another Father,” “a higher authority” than Bush41 on going to war with Iraq. If true, presumably God would have also told him how to win this Iraq war without all the blunders, suffering and death.

The world has seen Christian certitude before and it’s not a pretty picture: papal infallibility when the Pope had armies, the Inquisition (intolerance at home) and the Crusades (intolerance abroad). When the Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099, they slaughtered all its inhabitants. When the Arab leader Saladin recaptured the city, he spared all the Christian inhabitants. So the Middle East is already primed for another war with Christian invaders; and accordingly and as a recent NIE confirmed, the war in Iraq has increased the number of jihadists and terrorists and made America less safe. This is not praise for the enemy, but history and insight into why our “bring it on” cowboy President is only rekindling and fueling this centuries-old fire.

Our brave, innocent young men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting for a better world, but a leader ignorant of history and cultures can easily cause the opposite. The stupidity of World War I and of Wilson, Lloyd George and Clemenceau caused terrible consequences for another 70 years after the end of that war, including Hilter and Communism. Afghanistan is the right war, certainly a just war and the whole world agreed and was on our side, and if we would have concentrated our efforts there we probably would have wiped out Bin Laden and those responsible for 9-11 by now. Iraq is a total disaster, and Iran will be even worse. Let’s face it, all George Bush knows is how to start wars!

AMERICAN DIPLOMACY… now there’s an oxymoron! The leader of Iran comes off as a whacko, however, the Iranians and the rest of the world view George Bush in the same way, so there is a common starting point. Real diplomacy involves talking with your adversary one-on-one without preconditions, and there’s a lot to discuss with Iran: the CIA in the 1950s, the Shah, the 1979 hostage crisis, sponsorship of terror, Israel and justice in the Middle East, and nuclear issues. But if past is prelude, Bush’s diplomacy with Iran will be perfunctory and rigged - this time, our mentally unbalanced, messianic President needs to provoke a war, AND HE WILL FIND A WAY!

This new Bush war should further help over one billion Muslims in their decision to fight America in a mutual holy war. When the President finally increases the level of hatred against the United States to where it engulfs Pakistan, then we face nuclear terror, and Biblical Armageddon becomes real and a self-fulfilling prophecy. Oh, the joy, the Rapture! Right now roiled Pakistan is just one assassin’s bullet away from going under, and still jihad recruitment is in its infancy.

Back at home, Christian certitude is present in Bush’s politics of division and hate. Nonbelievers of Bush’s Christian values and policies are viewed with contempt, instead of as fellow citizens in a pluralistic democracy. Civility has gone out of our civilization, and this type of Christian Right hate is completely out of the closet with Ann Coulter’s book on 9-11, which has been repudiated by few if any on the right who claim to practice the Christian message of love. Hate, hate, hate -- welcome to the new Christian America (not exactly like Mother Theresa or the Amish).

“Good and evil” is a concept common in religion, morality and ethics. Obviously the whole world needs more good and less evil. But is there a practical definition that everyone can agree on and that lends itself to objective measurement. How about: GOOD is something that makes the many human lives better and no or few lives worse, while EVIL is something that makes many lives worse, and no or few lives better. Some obvious good in this world: Habitat for Humanity, St Jude’s Children Hospital, etc. Evil under this definition would include a considerable number of Hollywood movies, a lot of poison on TV and violent video games.

Measuring George Bush’s actions by this definition with objective facts, our compassionate conservative, Christian President does mostly EVIL: from the Iraq disaster to Katrina mismanagement/incompetence to “no child left behind” (children in extreme poverty up 20% since Bush took office) to the $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich. Particulars on the last item: SUPPLY-SIDE (trickle-down) economics is a bogus theory promoted by those who benefit from it. In a mature capitalist system, supply side never rules, it’s always the demand side of the equation that governs growth and well-being. Think about the 1930s Depression, General Motors had plenty of supply, but demand evaporated.

Previous U.S. recessions have been cured with only $200 billion in tax cuts targeted to the middle class, because the consumer (the great middle class) spends that tax cut and primes the economic pump. But George Bush has raised the debt that our children and grandchildren will have to pay from almost $6 trillion to almost $9 trillion for this current recovery, which is uniquely without wage gains, and which has shrunk the middle class that makes America strong and great.

Corporations (the supply side) are now loaded with cash, but there’s no place to spend it because they don’t see any demand. So many corporations are using that cash to buy back their stock -- WOW, isn’t supply side wonderful in how it fulfills America’s needs? As the rich-poor divide increases, we’re headed toward previous shining examples of trickle-down economics: South America of the recent past and feudalism in the Middle Ages (South America and feudalism also had no wage gains). This is such good evil by our compassionate conservative, Christian President and his myriad of engorged friends.

I see a dark future for the country we all love. Even our Constitution is at risk when a President says he speaks directly to God (witness how God/Allah influences and corrupts Islamic attempts at democracy). The Constitution guarantees freedom to all, and freedom for all from tyranny. Our precious Constitution binds us together as a nation, and allegiance to it is the definition of patriotism.

Virginia Daddy asked--
"Why do Mormon's cause concern?"

Great question. I think the answer most likely is that most people don't know enough about us.

"Is it because they claim to be Christian (when in fact, that is questionable?)" It may be questionable in most people's minds because we believe that God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ are two distinct beings. We claim to be Christian because we follow the teachings of Christ and try to be like Him.

"Is it because they tend to pay first attention to their own?" We indeed try our best to take care of our own and more. Among the first people we were assigned to help (by the Church) when I traveled to Mississippi after Katrina were city officials and first responders, regardless of religious affiliation.

"Is it because they are mostly secluded in Utah?" The Church is actually world-wide, with the majority of members living outside the United States.

"Is it because they tend to become very powerful in positions and dictate the terms?" Not sure exactly what this question is coming from, but we have all kinds of people in the Church, including the type you mention and those exactly the opposite.

I would offer this question: "Why are we afraid of *anyone* who is different than we are?" I suppose the answer is that we are human. So how do we fix the problem? My answer would be:

Get to know the person.

Want to know Romney? Read his book _Turnaround_, listen to what he says, look carefully at what he did in Massachusetts (not just what others say he did), look at his family and see what people say who have worked closely with him.

Religion or Politics?
It is not a person's religion I worry about(unless he doesn't practice it), it is his politics. It is not the religion or lack of religious practices of Kennedy, Schumer, or Carter, it is their political views. Gov. Romney's problem is that he is an (R).

Pharisees, Sadducees & Mormons
phar·i·see (far'i-se)
n.
Pharisee A member of an ancient Jewish sect that emphasized strict interpretation and observance of the Mosaic law in both its oral and written form.
A hypocritically self-righteous person.
[Middle English pharise, from Old English fariseus and from Old French pharise, both from Late Latin pharisaeus, from Greek pharisaios, from Aramaic p?rišayya, pl. of p?riš, separate, from p?raš, to separate.]
----------------------------------
Sad·du·cee (saj'?-se', sad'y?-)
n.
A member of a priestly, aristocratic Jewish sect founded in the second century B.C. that accepted only the written Mosaic law and that ceased to exist after the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70.

[Middle English Saducee, from Old English Sadduceas, Sadducees, from Late Latin Sadducaei, from Greek Saddoukaioi, from Mishnaic Hebrew s??dûqî, after s?adôq, Zadok, high priest in the time of David and Solomon, from s?adôq, just, righteous, from s?adaq, to be just.]
----------------------------------
2000 years after Pharisees and Sadducees had their tussles between themselves, they find they can come together again for this cause— to fight the church that claims to be the true church of God (apparently, though they believe it is not of God, and they imply, by decrying 'Mormons' who make that claim, that they do NOT believe that their 'church' (be it what variant of traditional "Christianity" that it may be (other than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or "Mormon Church") is forcibly God's one true church), both those who consider themselves to be more "conservative" (like most 'evangelical' Christians), as well as those who are less so.

Yes, just as Pontius Pilate and Herod became reconciled over Jesus, so do most, if not almost all, 'traditional Christians' find a convenient foe in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (i.e., the "Mormon" Church—so named, for The Book of Mormon they believe to be the word of God, as they do believe in the Bible).

The author of the above article wonders if (why) it is that numbers of those who would not vote for a Mormon to be president are much higher than they were some years ago.

For those of us who have been in the "Mormon" Church for some decades can tell you—'traditional Christians' have, in the past quarter century or so, in particular, started organizing in greater numbers and more effectively to try to prevent the 'LDS Church' from winning converts from among their membership and from around the world as easily as they use to.

They will accept those of genuine "cults" (as Danny called the JW's above), Seventh Day Adventists, "Christian Science" members, etc as being "Christian", but they separate themselves from "Mormons", for the God and Jesus Mormons believe in is profoundly different than that espoused by other neo-heretics!

To this charge, I say, they are absolutely RIGHT! Unlike 'traditional Christians', Mormons believe in a living God! One who neither has been muted by their clergy, nor self-muted, for "...He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Furthermore, Latter-Day Saints (LDS), believe that, yes, Satan WAS a brother of Jesus. Just as they believe that Judas Iscariot WAS a 'brother' of Jesus. Both were initially in good standing with God. Both fell from their positions of high authority (enemies are one thing, traitors are another).

Mormons believe that not only was Jesus in the beginning with God, but all humankind was—

"Before thou was in the womb, I knew thee" (Jeremiah), and "...when the sons of God shouted for joy..." (Job) because they would have the opportunity to prove that they were like their Father.

Mormons further believe that Gods have wives ("...in the heavens, are parents single, no the thought makes reason stare—truth is reason, truth eternal, tells me I've a mother there...) (Eliza R. Snow - hymn, "Oh, My Father". In the image of God created he them, male AND FEMALE created He THEM" (Genesis)

Yes, Mormons are "crazy" enough to believe that a child can grow to the stature of a parent without necessarily replacing that parent or taking away from their parent their position, power or prestige—

"I ascend to my Father, and your Father, to my God, and to your God" (Jesus speaking to Mary Magdalene in the Garden near the tomb). "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Epistle of Paul to Phillipians). "And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ..." (Paul's Epistle to the Romans)

Interestingly, 'traditional Christians' don't dispute either that Mormons have the same family values. Its their doctrine that bothers them. Or, as Charles Dickens said, "What the Mormons do is mostly good, what they teach is mostly nonsense"

Or, as the Jews told Jesus—

JOHN 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

'Traditional Christians' accuse Mormons on polygamy which once was practised (over a century ago) by some Church members. They forget that Abraham, of whom Jesus affirmed was righteous, was a polygamist. So were the other two of whom God is written that He (God) is the God of 'Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'.

Even Moses, who delivered from God to Israel the commandment "Thou shalt not commit adultery", was himself a polygamist.

In fact, some believe that Jesus' parable of the 10 virgins was of a bridegroom set to marry 10 women! Hence, a possible implied endorsement of the doctrine.

Whether or not this last one holds water, would these 'Christians' condemn any four of the first mentioned prophets?

Apparently Roy finds God intolerant (the couplet quoted to Joseph Smith by both Jesus Christ when Joseph Smith received his first vision at age 14, and then by an angel, three years later, were quotes from the book of Isaiah found prominently in your cherished Bible. (If the shoe fits, Cindy, ITS YOURS)!

And what further audacity, the Mormons have, to really believe that man was placed by God on the earth (literally) around 6,000 years or so ago! (The Mormons have even eschewed man creeping out of some prehistoric slime some millions or billions of ages ago—how so very heretic they are)!

Don't, any of you 'traditional Christians', or your Helenized Sadducean humanist brethren, do what Jesus advised, and judge Mormons, (Mitt or any other) by their fruits (works). Rather, judge them on perceived heresy and blasphemy. Let's go back to Salem (Mass) and BURN the heretical witches!!! Condemn them not for what they do, but whether or not they agree with your misperceptions of the Bible and God!



Think about it
JohnCitizen: Have you ever considered booking a one-way ticket to somewhere else that you could respect and patriotically defend? If you do,use extreme caution - speaking freely there might be hazardous to your health.

Misguided Judgemental-ism
As a Christian conservative, I find it astounding to hear so many so-called Christians pitifully clamoring about an other's belief in Christ if it does not happen to conform with what they perceive to be the only, and absolute truth.

The adversary is having a "field day" with those who cannot seem to recall many of the scriptures which admonish them to be honest, and without guile. They vilify The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and those who adhere to the Lord's Gospel plan as they understand it simply because they have been told by others to reject anything they say or do. Some even go so far as to proclaim that anyone who doesn't take the Bible words according to their interpretation as the only word of God is not Christian.

I certainly hope those who believe they have been called of God to proclaim others are not Christian will be treated mercifully by the God for whom they proclaim to speak.


Smack
Sorry the momons here feel like they are being attacked. I don't see it or the "venom" others are seeing here.

I'm not a mormon. I prefer a candidate who is not one. This does not apply only to mormons. I will, however, vote for the candidate who I believe comes closest to my values. That may be Mit.

I admit that Dave's last post was.... Well I will not get into it here. Suffice it to say that when someone claims to be of any particular faith/religion - I assume they actually practice it and make it a part of everything they do and every decision they make. I assume this because that is what I try to do. Don't worry. I will never be running for office!

Downplay the differences if you like but there are insurmountable chasms between Mormonism and 'traditional Christianity'. However, we on earth are charged only with loving each other, not condemning each other. God will do as he wills with people leading his children astray. I think its them. They think its me. Fair enough. No matter our differences, we are all God's children. We couldn't change that if we wanted to.

Now, since I put God first (yes before country). If Mit or any candidate is like JFK and is faithful for appearances only, it probably doesn't matter a hill of beans what religion he claims to be. On the other hand, if he puts his god first, it makes a difference and should affect every decision he makes; be it at home or at the office. How can this not be a consideration when evaluating a candidate.

So yes. I can vote for a mormon to be president. Not my perfect candidate, but rarely will there be one.



Just Left of Center
I am not losing any sleep over the possibility of Romney getting elected as President. I personally have nothing against the man, but I do not think he has a snowball's chance of winning. Likewise, I don't think Hillary will get the nomination either.

I am familiar with the LDS faith and have friends and some family members who are in this faith. I have done much research on this religion and have found it to be anything but mainstream Christian. My problem with the LDS faith is the founder, Joseph Smith. Do a web search and you'll find much about Joseph that would make any level-headed thinking person question why anyone would want to belong to such a cultish group that calls itself a "Christian" denomination.

I have found many LDS people to be wonderful, law-abiding citizens. It is the leadership of the LDS church that I have problems with. I think much of Mormonism is a lie and I hate to see good, kind-hearted people duped into this faith system. I have no doubt that Romney is a good man, but I do not believe he stands a chance of getting elected. I know that I would not vote for him.

I'm an Edwards fan but he does not seem to be doing well so far. :(

Why is this a concern?
I am LDS, and have been a manager at several companies over the years. Never at any time have I required that those that reported to me read the Book of Mormon, listen to the missionaries, marry a bunch of women. I have never hid my religion from anyone, but at the same time I have never pushed it on anyone. Why? Because it wasn't appropriate. I was there to do a job with those that work with me, whether they be Evangelicals, Buddhists, Hindus, Catholics, whatever. I got along very well with all of those that worked for me, even though they knew I was a Mormon.

Those that, in my opinion, have the most problems with others are Evangelicals. I had a good friend that was Evangelical that pitched a fit because her daughter's school teacher was an atheist. Who cares? Does she teach math differently because she is an atheist? If she did, stating that God made it that 2+2=4, and that science now proves that it is 5, then maybe she had a point. And even then, just tell you child what is correct and move forward.

Most of the LDS I know (and I don't live in Utah, so I can't speak for everyone) are very tolerant of others beliefs. We don't spend Sundays teaching about what other churches believe (or better yet, what other "cults" believe, and how to argue with them). We spend our time learning about Jesus Christ, church history, how to be better men, women, husbands, wives (only one!), fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters. We teach a reliance upon God for support. We teach to be honest, kind individuals, to look for service opportunities to help others. I have a hard time seeing why this is such a concern. Do those that are anti-Mormon concerned that Mitt is going to repeal the anti-bigamy laws? He won't have to, because the courts will do anyway thru the gay marriage issue. Is it because he believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet? So what? Millions believe that Pope Benedict is God's servant.

Grow up. Mitt is either the right guy or he isn't because of his qualifications, not his religion.

Web search Joseph Smith
You'll find much information about Joseph that would make any level-headed person question why anyone would want to belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Of course, much of what you find when you search the web may not be accurate but don't let that stop you from reaching your conclusion that Mormons are either evil, or just about as offensive, too stupid to think rationally.

And just because a person happens to "know a Mormon" or have "friends that are Mormon" or "have studied about Mormons" doesn't mean they really know very much it. That doesn't preclude them from knowing, but it sure doesn't automatically make them an expert.

Mitsy
Try not to fall into the trap that many of us do on any subject (especially religion):

"Do a web search and you'll find much about Joseph that would make any level-headed thinking person question why anyone would want to belong to such a cultish group that calls itself a "Christian" denomination."

Religious beliefs in particular cannot be understood by a Web search or through any other medium (with the exception of prayer, perhaps). Even with prayer, most religions have to be lived to be understood. Christ taught that "if any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17)

I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since I was eight. But, it wasn't until my late teens and early twenties that I really started living the principles taught in the Church. It was then that I began to understand how to become a true Christian. And, I'm still working on it.

Here's the thing: When you make the statement that I quoted from you above, you offend me deeply. I am not a radical and I would bet that anyone who knows me would consider me level-headed and thinking. [Well, the thinking part is getting harder as I get older, but that's beside the point. :-) ]

I'll repeat what I said in my last post--When we're talking about political candidates (or just neighbors for that matter):

Get to know the person.

Want to know Romney? Read his book _Turnaround_, listen to what he says, look carefully at what he did in Massachusetts (not just what others say he did), look at his family and see what people say who have worked closely with him.

How the world turns
Jimmy Carter was once despised by the left for proclaiming to be born again and is now practically deified for being anti-semitic. George Bush declared his born again experience and was hailed a hero and had everyone including Dems and Republicans singing "God Bless America" on the capital steps after 9/11, now the libs are hailing movies about his assassination and some "conservatives" are calling him everything from a traitor to a globalist bent on world government. Just give me an honest seeker of the truth about God and I'll vote for him.

Dave
I want to emphasize again that I have no problem with Mormons as moral, kind neighbors or as political allies. I do draw the line at accepting their theology as biblically sound. It is the duty of every Christian to spread the truth of the gospel. I do not mean to belittle or attack anyone here, but I also cannot remain silent while incorrect doctrine is put forth as truth that is entirely compatible with the Bible.

----

Dave wrote:
"2000 years after Pharisees and Sadducees had their tussles between themselves, they find they can come together again for this cause- to fight the church that claims to be the true church of God (apparently, though they believe it is not of God, and they imply, by decrying 'Mormons' who make that claim..."

Evangelicals are not trying to institute some form of legalism. We do oppose the teaching of incorrect doctrine, not out of bigotry or unfounded belief, but based on evidence and lack thereof. I linked above (February, 16, 2007 4:00 AM) to other posts I've written that lay out much evidence that supports the truth of the Christian Bible. What evidence do you have to justify belief in Joseph Smith's prophesies and the Book of Mormon? Smith never performed any public miracles or made accurate and specific predictions about the future. His supposed revelations came in isolation from any other witnesses, just as Mohammed's did, and those revelations contradict biblical teachings that CAN be verified using widely accepted standards of evidence.

Again I ask Mormons to suggest a good reason that an evangelical should accept the truth claims of LDS. Is there archaeological evidence that supports the origin of your book in fourth century New York State? Any evidence that those people ever existed and were later completely wiped out? Any evidence other than Smith's word that his revelations were divinely inspired? I "believe it is not of God" because there is no reason to do so. And before you claim that I should just have blind faith, the Bible never calls for that. The prophets often appealed to miracles that were performed before their eyes, and then some people would turn around and disobey God anyway. If we completely drop the standard of requiring some corroborating evidence, then I could go into a cave tomorrow and emerge with supposedly inspired teachings that everyone should believe, regardless of how inconsistent they may be with already-verified truths.

Dave
Dave wrote:
"Yes, just as Pontius Pilate and Herod became reconciled over Jesus, so do most, if not almost all, 'traditional Christians' find a convenient foe in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..."

Nice attempt to smear any opposition to your unsupported claims by associating us with Jesus' earthly enemies. "If you disagree with me, the only possible explanation is that you are looking for a 'convenient foe.'" That's essentially the same fallacious argument made by global warming priests to silence those who dare to question their faith using science. You seem to have a persecution complex. If your truth claims are supported by strong evidence, as is the Bible, then present that evidence and stop crying about unjust persecution.

Dave wrote:
"Unlike 'traditional Christians', Mormons believe in a living God! One who neither has been muted by their clergy, nor self-muted, for "...He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.""

Yet another straw man argument. Christians DO believe in a living God. Where do you think we get the idea that we can pray to God and receive answers to our prayers? We also believe that the Holy Spirit, one third of the Trinity, enters and actively works in the hearts of all Christians from the moment they are saved. The idea of a "dead God" is nonsense and you are dishonest to suggest that Christians believe in such a thing.

Is "muted" supposed to refer to continued revelations to man in the form of Smith's Book of Mormon?

Dave
Dave wrote:
"...they would have the opportunity to prove that they were like their Father."

Being created in the image of God (with consciousness and free will that animals lack) is not the same as being God's equal (i.e., being a god). Satan claimed that eating certain fruit would make Adam and Eve "like God," but he was just trying to deceive them. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that men can ever become gods themselves. If that were even possible, then God would cease to be omnipotent because obviously some other god would have to have the power to undo anything He does, or annex certain areas of the universe in which God would have no power, etc.

Dave wrote:
"Yes, Mormons are "crazy" enough to believe that a child can grow to the stature of a parent without necessarily replacing that parent or taking away from their parent their position, power or prestige..."

It is one thing to accept that a human "child can grow to the stature of a parent without necessarily replacing that parent or taking away from their parent their position, power or prestige," but it is quite another to think that necessarily implies the same relationship between God, our heavenly Father, and His creation. Does a human parent create a child's soul or does God do so? Obviously there are ways in which our earthly parent-child relationships differ from the one we have with God, so it is not necessary that a human parent is in every respect the exact analog of God with respect to their children. If you have some reason, other than an unsupported assertion in the Book of Mormon, to believe that we can become actual gods, then please present it. The Bible quotes you provided, suspiciously without exact references, are not sufficient. JESUS ascending and being in the form of God is not the same as HUMANS doing those things.

Romans 8:15-17 says:
"For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."

"Heirs" refers to the idea that we will inherit a place in heaven. If we "share in his sufferings" by accepting Christ's offer to trade his sinless life for our sinful ones, then we will be granted a place in heaven with God and "share in his glory." It does not say that we will become God's or Christ's equal. Sharing does not necessarily imply equality.

Dave
I agree that we share many common values, but that does not mean I must accept your beliefs. The Jews who wanted to kill Jesus refused to see the truth of His ministry that was right in front of them. That is because they had free will to choose good or evil, and some people will inevitably choose evil. Your comparison of that Dickens' remark to John 10:33 is a non sequitur. Jesus had demonstrated his authority to his enemies through miracles, fulfillment of the messianic prophecies, and fidelity to scripture and correct teaching. Mormons have done no such thing. Using your dubious model, we would have to accept the Muslim religion because we are not allowed to accept good deeds by Muslims while rejecting their doctrines.

Dave
Polygamy was at one time a symptom of Mormonism, not one of their central doctrines that would be a legitimate reason for me to believe or not believe in the Book of Mormon. In the same way, a homosexual's dislike of Christian doctrine regarding their sexuality is not a valid reason to reject Christianity or the existence of God. We should not reject truth simply because we don't like its implications. Polygamy in Mormonism's past or present is not my reason for rejecting its particular truth claims. I do oppose the practice of polygamy, but that is more or less irrelevant to our discussion.

I will add that God also placed restrictions on slavery in order to better manage an institution that He would eventually reveal to be immoral. (Would any sensible person today argue that slavery is consistent with Christianity?) The ancient Israelites simply were not prepared for all of God's revelations at once, or else Christ would have come long before he did. God had to prepare their hearts for Jesus' ministry. Similarly, God placing restrictions on polygamy is not the same as an endorsement of polygamy, but rather an attempt to manage it until He fully revealed its moral depravity. Also, that's quite a leap you made from Jesus' parable to a full-fledged endorsement of polygamy, and of course you didn't bother to flesh out that argument in any detail.

Are you implying that polygamy is currently OK? I would not condemn any OT prophets for disobeying moral laws that had not yet been revealed to them.

What other wives did Moses have besides Zipporah?

Dave
Dave wrote:
"Apparently Roy finds God intolerant (the couplet quoted to Joseph Smith by both Jesus Christ when Joseph Smith received his first vision at age 14, and then by an angel, three years later, were quotes from the book of Isaiah found prominently in your cherished Bible."

Do you not cherish the Bible? Your sneering tone implies that you do not, or that you seek to minimize the Bible's authority. If you're actually sneering at our rejection of the Book of Mormon, then be more careful and say what you mean. I suspect you don't really mean what you implied by your tone.

You say Roy thinks God is intolerant because Roy does not accept what the Book of Mormon says. You didn't list any specific quotes from the Book of Mormon, which would allow us to challenge them, yet you assert that they use quotes from Isaiah. Just because someone quotes from the Bible does not make them an authority. The Bible tells us that even Satan knows the Word of God, but he uses it to deceive, such as when he tempted Jesus in the desert by twisting God's words. If you're trying to equate the Book of Mormon with Isaiah, then why can't you just cite Isaiah directly? The point is that whatever you're referring to in the Book of Mormon probably is inconsistent with the Bible, but you think Roy should accept the Book of Mormon anyway. The bottom line is that you must first convince us that the Book of Mormon has the same authority as the Bible before you can quote it against us and expect us to be persuaded.

----

I have no problem with the idea of a young earth, which has some scientific support, or the rejection of macro-evolution, which has a great deal of scientific support that is now called Intelligent Design. Have any Christians here disputed your account of creation? (I haven't read every single post here.)

Dave
You cannot possibly think that Jesus was telling us to judge the veracity of doctrines exclusively by looking at their works. Again, that would mean we would have to believe whatever a person claims as long as they do good works. That means we must accept Paganism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, et. al., as truth, yet those religions have beliefs that are mutually exclusive with what Jesus himself taught. Jesus also taught that the Pharisees and Sadducees looked pure on the outside but often were not faithful to God in their hearts. Anyone looking at them would see good works/fruit, yet Jesus said they were not doctrinally correct but rather legalistic. Jesus clearly does not call us to judge people's faith only by their works, but he does offer that as one way of distinguishing true Christians from those who have not really accepted Christ yet dishonestly profess the same beliefs as Christians.

No one wants to burn Mormons at the stake. Your hysterical overreaction is yet another instance of your dismantling of a straw man you created.

michaelogic101
You wrote:
“As a Christian conservative, I find it astounding to hear so many so-called Christians pitifully clamoring about an other's belief in Christ if it does not happen to conform with what they perceive to be the only, and absolute truth.”

My problem with Mormon beliefs is not that they do not conform with my own, but that some of their beliefs contradict the Bible. Also, none of their beliefs regarding the Book of Mormon are supported by anything that could be described as acceptable evidence, unlike the Bible.

There is such a thing as absolute truth. To deny this is to state an absolute truth: “It is absolutely true that there is no absolute truth.” That’s a self-defeating claim, so obviously there must be SOME absolute truths.

Our challenge is to differentiate truth from fiction, not to accept all beliefs regardless of how they contradict each other. That said, I accept Mormons as good people who have a right to believe what they do, but I do not agree that those beliefs are consistent with Christianity. They too use the Bible, but only when it does not contradict the Book of Mormon. Mormons can call themselves followers of Christ in the same way that Muslims can (they revere him as a mere prophet), but the term Christian has meaning that is commonly understood to include only those who accept the entire Bible as the Word of God. Mormons believe the Bible is subordinate to another, much later book that lacks the historical and spiritual authority of the Bible. But we do not claim the Bible is the ONLY word of God. As I mentioned earlier, God continues to send the Holy Spirit to us to guide us, and He answers prayers. In that sense, I’m distinguishing the Word of God, as we refer to the written Bible that was revealed to legitimate prophets, from what God communicates to us through prayer and the Holy Spirit who dwells within us. If the message we think we have received from God contradicts Biblical truths, that is a clear indication that we have misinterpreted the message.

I am not trying to vilify anyone, but rather to point out their errors. Is that not permitted? Is LDS afraid of reasonable questions?

Lestat
Thank you for taking the time here.

Well done.

Bible vs Book of Mormon
Do you know of any case where the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible? I don't.

Lestat says:

"My problem with Mormon beliefs is not that they do not conform with my own, but that some of their beliefs contradict the Bible."

In truth, your problem IS that Mormon beliefs do not conform with your own, because it is your "belief" that some of their beliefs contadict the Bible.

Now, you can go on and on and "prove" why your beliefs are correct, and maybe you are right. But, they are still your beliefs and not really proof. If real proof was available at this point, there wouldn't be the controversy. Real proof, that takes away any other possible explanation, is not available for many important questions about God.

Fuzzy
It's a team effort, brother.

I had to LOL when I read your comment:
"Being God, he probably has a really good comeback after you tell him how stupid he is."

An instant classic.

Voting Mormon
The question as to why many of us are loathe to vote for a Mormon (especially us ex-Mormons), is that it is hard to imagine our President as one who believes that God is an exalted man, and the he, Romney, can actually become a God as a result of his successful purification through the LDS church. This one simple fact has ramifications in my mind. There are others, but . . . limited space, and all that.

Character is Paramount in a President
Some would like to say that the platform is what is important for a President, but if the candidate's character is weak, do we really expect him (or her) to uphold the promises being made in the platform. Faith (as opposed to religion) is paramount to character. You can disagree with that, but for those of us who have faith, we've seen how the faithless operate and we know differently. If you believe yourself to be the highest authority in your little corner of the universe, it's a lot easier to play fast and loose with character decisions than it is if you believe Somebody is watching and won't approve.

I also studied Mormonism when I was in college -- I roomed with a Mormon girl for two years. I was respectful to her and the missionaries she continually brought around. I read the entire Quad (well, actually, I had already read the Bible through). I found a lot of disparity when I contrasted the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants to the Bible. The missionaries' answer to my dilemma was that the Bible was only reliable as correctly translated and the other three books were therefore more reliable. The problem was that they disagreed with one another. And, then I got my hands on an older Book of Mormon (I also had friends who were former LDS) and saw that there'd been some extensive editing.

I'm sorry, but any religion (as opposed to faith) that changes the figure of Jesus from that which is presented in the Bible is a cult by Biblical standards and I can't accept it or its members as Christian. It's not my choice. Jesus Himself said He was the only way to God and that there were no other ways. He warned that there would be groups who would think they were calling on Jesus, but He would have to tell them to go away because they never knew Him.

My final decision about the LDS church came because three different LDS women I knew faced discipline by their wards, which were in Washington State, Alaska and California. Each was assigned "penitance" for sins committed. Two of them had failed to obey their husbands to the point where their husbands have felt compelled to beat them to the point of hospitalization. One of these men was given an "outstanding citizen award" by his local ward less than a month after his wife's hospitalization. The third woman failed to die while fighting off a rapist who broke into her apartment. These three incidents coupled with many others that I don't have time to go into showed me that the LDS has a problem with character. A religious organization that refuses to impose church discipline on known wife-beaters but instead praises them for their community involvement and assigns their victims the church disciple is not teaching character. A bad fig tree is known by its fruit. I've seen too many fruit of the Mormon tree to believe their TV ads.

This is not to say that I haven't known many LDS who were nice people who truly espoused family values, but the organization they are a part of is a sham. Besides, it takes more than being nice to please God or to run a country.

As far as Mitt is concerned, his flip-flops on abortion make his character look shaky. I feel a touch of spiritual discernment every time I see his Stepford wife. I'm not saying I wouldn't not vote for him (yet), but I know I don't currently trust him. I don't like phoniness in my candidates. Sometimes, I have to vote for the lesser of two phonies, but Mitt hasn't proven that he even meets those qualifications. Currently, I think Duncan Hunter and Ron Paul have shown more character and when it comes down to the ballot box, character is going to trump fake family values any day. It's not that I don' think family values are important, just that I believe character is the only way for true family values to take root in a human being and I believe that character only can grow where God has planted it.

That's just where I stand.

macfan1950
I thought a Mormon might respond as such. And I do not wish to get into a huge debate regarding Mormonism-- I beleive Mormons for the most part to be solid people and conservatives. You have faults just like the rest of us.

But...

Christians by and large think you outside the Christian fold because you deny the trinity, you believe man can become equal to God and Christ, and you must put your faith in Joseph Smith, and that is just to start.

I know you put a lot of effort into missions and such. In fact, it is a requirement to be a member, from my understanding, at least for the youth. I know you have a positive and productive outreach, but what you do not do is truly reach out as brothers and sisters to those who live in your neighborhoods who are not Mormon, especially when there are many Mormons around. Say what you will, but there is indeed a strong perception that Mormon's tend to be exclusive.

Yes, I know they are worldwide. But concentrated in Utah, nonetheless.

There are Mormon's in very powerful positions through the country. You guys hold some sway...

And I agree, get to know people.


robm
I never claimed to be able to prove God's existence or the Christian faith. I do argue that is is far more reasonable to make the small leap of faith from the evidence to Christianity than it is to make the large leap from that mountain of evidence to the denial of my conclusion, i.e., disbelief in Christianity, in whatever form that might take.

My point was that I do not base my disagreement with Mormon beliefs solely on the fact that they disagree with mine, as michaelogic101 asserted. That would be like me saying that I disagree with the belief that the earth is flat simply because that belief contradicts my own belief that the earth is round. I cannot prove beyond any doubt that the earth is round, even to myself. I have never seen the earth's spherical shape with my own eyes, so I have to base my belief on the evidence that others have accumulated. It is overwhelming evidence, but it does not "prove" the earth is round beyond any doubt. There are VERY few things that can be proven in a way "that takes away any other possible explanation." By VERY few, I'm mean that only tautologies could meet such a standard.

I do not agree with Mormon teachings because I have no good reason to. If Mormon beliefs conflicted with my own, I would first evaluate the Mormon beliefs. If I accepted them as reasonably based in facts and logic, then I would have to re-evaluate my belief in Christianity (not necessarily convert at that point, but just question). In fact, that's exactly what I did when I, as an atheist, was confronted by Christianity's truth claims. I didn't just reject ideas that appeared to be true simply because they conflicted with beliefs I already held.

You seem to be confusing (1) rejection of another's beliefs simply because they disagree with what I already believe with (2) rejecting another's beliefs because that person's beliefs have no basis in fact or reason.

----

I will address your question about "any case where the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible" a little later. I want to make sure I don't misstate any Mormon beliefs, so I will have to do some research. jcdean1978 could have made this much easier by responding to my request to illustrate what s/he thinks are the main doctrinal differences between Mormons and evangelicals. No other Mormons have attempted to answer me either.

Mormonism Contradicting Christianity
If Gene Thomas is correct that LDS "believes that God is an exalted man, and the he, Romney, can actually become a God as a result of his successful purification through the LDS church," then that is a clear contradiction of the Bible. One of the Ten Commandments tells us not to have false gods before the ONE true God, THE God of Israel. (If you want to get into the Trinity, it's not the same as polytheism.) I've also pointed out that there can be only one omnipotent God, not many that could interfere with each other's sovereignty.

aurorawatcher
Thanks for adding your first-hand experience to the mix. It would be a great help if you could suggest other specific teachings of LDS that conflict with the Bible.

I don't currently know anyone who has studied Mormonism to the extent that you have. I have heard of things like the "becoming a god" and "no Trinity, but rather two (?) separate gods" doctrines, but I can't state them in any detail or provide Book of Mormon quotations. My exposure to some of their doctrines was years ago and I saw at that time that there were inconsistencies, but I can't remember them all offhand.

The ONLY problem we have w/Mormons is...
Lestat,

I told you the truth. You know it. I know it. No amount of disassembling or disclaiming will change it.

Everyone has their excuse for why they would not, or would prefer not, to vote for a Mormon. It all comes back to what I said— You'll judge a man for what he believes, not for what he does.

Whether "Mitt is the man" (for president), each can (and will) decide for him or herself. But the fact that most of you will dismiss him, simply because he is a "Mormon" shows your bigotry. And your bigotry today against "Mormons" is no different than was the bigotry of the Pharisees and the Sadducess et al against Jesus and his disciples.

But I am glad. You wouldn't understand. You are of the world. I try not to be.

Jesus told his (true) disciples—

"11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

—Matthew 5

This still holds true—even in 2007 (and it will still in 2008)

Jesus further said—

"1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me."

—John 15

It will yet come to the killing part. Mark my words.

But for now, is not your saying "Mormons aren't Christians" the essential equivalent of "put(ting us) out of the synagogues..."?

It is.

Have you ever considered that it is 'traditional Christianity', rather than "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' that has veered away from true Christianity?

I think it has.

Look at the big picture. Step back a bit. You are doing the EXACT SAME THING to Latter-day Saints as the Pharisees & Sadducees did to the "saints" (members of Christ's church) in his day and in the day of his original apostles. AND YOU ARE DOING IT FOR THE SAME REASONS. Our religion IS different from yours.

Remember, the path to hell has a (democratic) majority, if you will—

"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for WIDE is the gate, and BROAD is the way, that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and MANY there be which go in thereat:

14 Because STRAIT (constricted) is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto LIFE, and FEW there be that find it."

—Matthew 7


This is the TRUTH from your own BIBLE! You don't know (or at least you don't understand) the Bible you claim is YOURS!

Is the Bible greater than God? Aren't you teaching the precepts of men, and their (false) traditions?

And, answer me this. Jesus said that a "house divided" will surely fall. Is not 'traditional Christianity' a "house divided" (other than when it decries "Mormonism"?

I'll be awaiting your replies!

robm- Mormonism Contradicts Christianity
So God sent Lehi to America around 600 BC and later gave him revelations that he withheld from his chosen people in Israel? God knew (He foresees all, but does not pre-determine everything because we have free will) that this Hebrew settlement in North America would be completely eradicated around 400 AD with no trace, so there would be no evidence of its existence. But that's OK, because 14 centuries later, God would send an angel to reveal those teachings to Joseph Smith alone, with none of the usual signs of authority (public miracles, teachings that are consistent with previously established doctrines, accurate and specific prophesies that later came true) that accompanied previous authentic prophets. He did this so people would be understandably confused by the sudden appearance of a new message that contradicts other teachings from the Bible that Mormons claim to believe, and yet the Bible was not lost for 14 centuries. We're just supposed to trust Smith that he was telling the truth when he recorded what was told to him by an angel that no one else witnessed. (Reminds me of a certain Prophet Mohammed.) There were other false prophets in Israel, before and after Jesus, who claimed to be the Messiah, but after brief periods of being fooled, no one believed them because there was no evidence for their authority. Why did God ensure that many people would witness and testify to the miracles and resurrection of Jesus (so that those who were willing to accept the evidence could believe but those who didn't want to would not be forced to believe) and then completely obscure the Book of Mormon by only teaching it to people he sent to America where all traces of them and their new scriptures would be wiped off the earth then revealed later to someone who could not demonstrate any kind of prophetic authority? Again I ask, should we just believe anyone who claims to be a messenger of God simply because he asserts that an angel told him so, no matter how outlandish and contrary to established truths his writings may be?

Jesus did not scold Thomas for doubting and then insist that he believe by blind faith. Instead, Jesus allowed Thomas to examine Jesus' crucifixion wounds with his own hands. Jesus then said that blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. But we have eyewitness accounts, including that of Thomas, to believe. Jesus performed miracles among many witnesses to demonstrate his authority from God the Father. He knew that people would have these accounts on which to base their faith, even though they themselves could not touch Jesus wounds. Mormons seem to scold doubters and tell them they should have blind faith in Smith's honesty.

----

LDS teaches that Jesus sacrifice was only part of our salvation. Their own web site says that a believer must also follow Biblical law in order to achieve salvation. So Jesus did some of the work, but we can work the rest of our way into heaven. This is clearly unfaithful to the doctrine of sola fide, clearly expressed in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." It doesn't get any clearer than that. The gift of God's grace, not our own works, saves us. If Mormons were correct, then they could boast that they had achieved salvation through their works while other Christians could not or did not. The Bible clearly disagrees with Mormon teaching about the method of our salvation.

I've already pointed out direct contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon (or whatever other LDS scriptures on which they base their beliefs) on two key doctrines: man becoming a god; and the method of our salvation. I really only needed to point out one to prove my point, but now you have two examples, one of which I know comes straight from the keyboards of the LDS leadership.

----

To see the information I pulled from the official LDS web site, follow the link below, then click on their link called "Wasn't Christ's sacrifice alone sufficient to save me?"
http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/questions/0,8789,895-1-16,00.html

At the bottom of the page it reads:
"To make His Atonement fully effective in our individual lives, we must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, obey God's commandments, and strive to become like Him. As we do these things through His Atonement, we can return to live with Him and our Heavenly Father forever."

That sounds similar to evangelical teaching, which says that when we repent of our sins, are baptized, obey God's commandments, and strive to become like Him, we experience THIS life more fully, but our salvation (which gives us a place in heaven) is already secured by our faith in Jesus Christ. LDS tries to obscure its doctrine by the way they phrase it here, but they do say that works of our own doing are performed through His atonement and lead us (back) to heaven. I think the LDS leadership wants its message to sound similar to ours so it will not raise an immediate objection from Christians they're trying to convert.

Dave
In my first post here I wrote:
"I'm a conservative evangelical Christian and I would vote for a Mormon who can show, just like almost (probably not an atheist) any other candidate, that he shares my values."

Is that dissembling, disclaiming, or bigoted? You must be confusing me with someone else.

Please at least acknowledge that you were wrong when, after addressing your post directly to me, you wrote:
"Everyone has their excuse for why they would not, or would prefer not, to vote for a Mormon. It all comes back to what I said— **YOU'LL** judge a man for what he believes, not for what he does." (My emphasis added)

If you won't even admit that, then we cannot possibly find any common ground for a civilized conversation.

----

I went on to repeatedly say that many Mormons are wonderful people who share many of my values, that I am not trying to belittle or attack anyone, and that I WOULD VOTE FOR A MORMON if s/he were the best candidate, but I respectfully disagree that their faith is consistent with Christianity. That's not bigoted, that's a genuine theological argument. Don't pretend that you do not implicitly believe that I am not following the true path that God created through Christ and then later Joseph Smith. You seem indignant that I would dare to point out the disagreement that is inherent in the existence of more than one religion.

Dave
You wrote:
"But I am glad. You wouldn't understand. You are of the world. I try not to be."

Now you're just leveling personal attacks against me. I wouldn't understand? I responded to your argument, and you refuse to point out specifically where my arguments and counter-arguments are flawed. I think everyone here can judge for themselves which of us is more capable of understanding a good argument when he sees it.

What did I say that could possibly lead you to conclude that I am "of the world"? My treasure is in heaven, not this world. I also try not to be of this world, but of course our bodies are and so they need to be fed, clothed, etc. Maybe you should examine your own need to inject, seemingly out of nowhere, your childish nah nah nah nah nah nah comment that I'm of the world but you try not to be. Aren't you just superior? Let's keep this civilized and focused on the issues, not ad hominem attacks. You seriously damage your credibility with the other readers when you fail to do so.

----

I'm well aware that Jesus warned his followers to expect persecution and I have never suggested otherwise. Are you trying to create another straw man argument against something I never wrote, never implied, and never privately believed?

I did say that you should drop the persecution complex, which is very different from saying that you should not expect to be persecuted. You complained in a hysterical way that we want to burn Mormons like witches in Salem. That's so far beyond what anyone here has written, and exactly the opposite of MY OWN WORDS, that it makes you appear irrational. Maybe you're not an irrational person, but those comments certainly give you that appearance. Creating outlandish persecution in your own mind when none actually exists is not what Jesus was referring to.

"It will yet come to the killing part. Mark my words."

We agree that Christians will be killed for their faith, but that has been happening for 2,000 years, including this very moment. I would give my own life to protect you from anyone who tries to murder you for your religious beliefs. That's a large part of what this country is all about, and I believe it to my core. That's one of the many ideals that led our soldiers to join the military to defend the US. It's outrageous and offensive that you would suggest, despite my clear words to the contrary, that I want to kill Mormons.

----

You wrote:
"But for now, is not your saying "Mormons aren't Christians" the essential equivalent of "put(ting us) out of the synagogues..."?"
No, it's the equivalent of saying that you don't agree with the core beliefs of Christianity. If I say that Muslims aren't Christians, am I "put(ting them) out of the synagogues?" They believe that Jesus was a prophet, but just a prophet and not the Son of God. Isn't that close enough? Am I being intolerant of their point of view by having an intellectual discussion of the merits of their beliefs? That gets us absolutely nowhere except a blank page because everyone is too afraid of offending anyone to debate the heart of the issue. That's the same way political correctness seeks to silence conservatives.

If your ideas and beliefs can't withstand scrutiny, then go play in the sandbox and let the adults have an honest discussion. I'm not afraid of people doubting and questioning my beliefs because I know my faith can withstand scrutiny. If yours can, then STOP THE AD HOMINEM ATTACKS AND DISTRACTIONS AND DEAL WITH MY SPECIFIC ARGUMENTS. (That's not yelling; it's emphasis in the absence of boldface or italics.) Otherwise, I'll have no choice but to ignore your posts.

Was that mean? Sure, but sometimes a little tough love is needed.

Dave
You wrote:
"Have you ever considered that it is 'traditional Christianity', rather than "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' that has veered away from true Christianity?

I think it has."

Of course I have considered that. I was raised Catholic, walked away and became an atheist, then discovered evangelical Christianity and went through a process of honestly evaluating competing truth claims before accepting Christ. Which "religion" emphasizes the Bible as the most authoritative source of God's Word? Also, which of our two "religions" has a tradition and primary scripture dating back 2,000 years, UNBROKEN by the disappearance of that scripture for 14 centuries and with numerous ancient manuscripts supporting its authenticity? I considered that question long before you posed it here, weighed the evidence, and concluded that the Bible is far more reliable that the Book of Mormon.

----

You wrote:
"You are doing the EXACT SAME THING to Latter-day Saints as the Pharisees & Sadducees did to the "saints"..."

You can assert that all you want without addressing my argument to the contrary, but that doesn't make it accurate. The Pharisees and Sadducees (most of them) denied that Jesus was who he claimed to be despite seeing with their own eyes the miracles he performed, speaking to witnesses of his resurrection, and seeing his empty grave. If anything, YOU would be the natural heir to the Pharisees and Sadducees because you too are ignoring evidence and reason in favor of the conclusion you prefer.

I followed the evidence to reach my conclusion, unlike the Pharisees and Sadducees. They persecuted Christians because they refused to allow anyone else to hold different beliefs. They ignored the evidence for Christ's divinity and stubbornly held onto their own conclusions regardless of where the evidence led. They were wrong. How am I refusing to allow you to be a Mormon? I'm arguing that your faith is built on lies, but nowhere have I suggested that you should be persecuted for believing what you do or that your faith should be banned.

Your formulation seems to be: The Pharisees and Sadducees opposed Jesus and his followers, and I point out that your doctrines are antithetical to what Jesus said, so I must be exactly like the Pharisees and Sadducees. If I argue specifically against the notion that David Koresh is the Messiah using lack of evidence for his position and contradictions with the same Bible he claims to venerate, but his followers believe he is the Messiah, am I being just like the Pharisees and Sadducees because their "religion is different from" mine? Or am I just making an honest intellectual evaluation of two competing beliefs? Your argument is absurd and it's sad that you can't see that.

Dave
You wrote:
"Because STRAIT (constricted) is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto LIFE, and FEW there be that find it."
-Matthew 7

This is the TRUTH from your own BIBLE! You don't know (or at least you don't understand) the Bible you claim is YOURS!"

I believe that there is one way to salvation: through Jesus Christ, not by my own efforts. Is that narrow and constricted? Sure, but it's the truth. I have never claimed otherwise. Who are you arguing against? Give me a quote from my own words that suggests that I think the path is wide and accommodating to many different methods of reaching heaven. This is what I mean by distractions from the points I HAVE made.

----

You wrote:
"Is the Bible greater than God? Aren't you teaching the precepts of men, and their (false) traditions?"

No, the Bible is the divinely inspired, inerrant Word of God. I never suggested that it is greater than God. I am teaching the same thing the OT prophets did: God has performed miracles and saved his people (Israel) from bondage and certain death, yet they repeatedly turned their eyes away from God. That is no different from arguing that the Bible is reliable because many people witnessed the miracles and resurrection of Jesus. Are you actually trying to say that Christian apologetics is heretical? Whew, good luck supporting that position. Did Jesus tell Thomas to take a hike because he was following "the precepts of men, and their (false) traditions" by asking to touch his wounds?

Dave
You wrote:
"And, answer me this. Jesus said that a "house divided" will surely fall. Is not 'traditional Christianity' a "house divided" (other than when it decries "Mormonism"?"

Jesus was explaining his authority to drive out demons. His enemies had challenged him to perform a "sign from heaven" to prove that he was driving out demons in the name of God, not in the name of Satan. Jesus responded:
"Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub. Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them out?"

His point was that Satan could not grant the power to drive out Satan's own demons because that would represent a "kingdom divided against itself" that would inevitably fall. He was not talking about Christians being "divided" from non-Christians who do not adhere to the correct doctrines that Jesus taught. If you're referring to the many Protestant denominations, they are not "divided AGAINST" themselves. There are generally minor doctrinal disagreements, but we agree on the fundamentals of Christianity, the most important being sola fide. As an evangelical Christian, I can assure you that we emphasize our common faith and often work together in many ways despite those minor doctrinal disagreements.

Not only did you take your quotation "house divided" completely out of context, but you also dropped the important qualifying words "against itself." If you divide a house into several apartments that are not "against" each other, will that house inevitably fall? If you divide a high school class into several discussion groups, will they certainly fall? Not unless you somehow pit them against each other. By leaving out context and key modifiers, you once again damage your credibility.

----

You can say all you want that you await my replies, but you aren't really paying much attention to what I'm saying. You also refuse to point out specifically how I am "dissembling" and "disclaiming," so you're satisfied with making baseless charges. All I can do it point out the truth in as excruciating detail as possible, but at some point it is up to you to either refute my arguments or acknowledge that my points were valid or correct. I fully expect to get more of the same quibbling and avoidance of my arguments, but I’ll give you one more chance and read your response.

I can't honestly say that I am looking forward to your reply.

Bigotry
Dave, since when is it bigotry to defend one's own views? This thread is the supreme example of a PC world gone mad.

There is open, challenging debate here and it is met with words like VENEMOUS and BIGOTS. Such words are merely used in catch phrases when no reasonable reply comes to mind.

Lestat has done very articulately (no offense) represented the 'traditional Christian' position as you call it, not only to you but in keeping with the theme of the Alan's column.

I strongly doubt that Mitt pays much attention to his religion if, as you say, mormon values are very similar to 'traditional Christians' (which I remember you saying were icky). If that were really true, he could not have been "pro-choice" in his recent past. Thus, he is probably not a very good example of a mormon. Which is about as much of a suprise as JFK of J Kerry being poor examples of catholics.

Forgive me. I am bigoted against most of the types of people who want to run for president.


Eisenhower a JW?
All the biographies I have read state that Dwight Eisenhower was a Presbterian not a JW. His arents were JW but no mention of his belonging to this group. Where does the autor get his info on DDE being a JW?

Koresh for President
Only in America.

Kill one cultist, elect another.

Lestat - Mormonism and Christianity
I pasted your message and included responses throughout. I indicated who's talking on each section so that will help.

Lestat-
So God sent Lehi to America around 600 BC and later gave him revelations that he withheld from his chosen people in Israel?

robm-
None of the revelations from God to any prophet in Acient America (Book of Mormon) contradicted what he revealed to prophets in Israel. Also, Lehi and his family were of the house of Israel; part of the chosen people.

Lestat-
God knew (He foresees all, but does not pre-determine everything because we have free will) that this Hebrew settlement in North America would be completely eradicated around 400 AD with no trace, so there would be no evidence of its existence.

robm-
There may not be evidence that you know about or that is "generally accepted" but that does not mean there is no evidence.

Lestat-
But that's OK, because 14 centuries later, God would send an angel to reveal those teachings to Joseph Smith alone, with none of the usual signs of authority (public miracles, teachings that are consistent with previously established doctrines, accurate and specific prophesies that later came true) that accompanied previous authentic prophets. He did this so people would be understandably confused by the sudden appearance of a new message that contradicts other teachings from the Bible that Mormons claim to believe, and yet the Bible was not lost for 14 centuries.

robm-
There are some documented public miracles.
I see the teachings as consistent with Christ's previously established doctrines.
There are documented specific prophesies that later came true.
I don't believe there are any Book of Mormon teachings that contradict the Bible.

Lestat-
We're just supposed to trust Smith that he was telling the truth when he recorded what was told to him by an angel that no one else witnessed. (Reminds me of a certain Prophet Mohammed.)

robm-
There were other witnesses to the Angel Moroni, and the Metal plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. Their accounts are found in the front of the Book of Mormon.

Lestat-
There were other false prophets in Israel, before and after Jesus, who claimed to be the Messiah, but after brief periods of being fooled, no one believed them because there was no evidence for their authority. Why did God ensure that many people would witness and testify to the miracles and resurrection of Jesus (so that those who were willing to accept the evidence could believe but those who didn't want to would not be forced to believe) and then completely obscure the Book of Mormon by only teaching it to people he sent to America where all traces of them and their new scriptures would be wiped off the earth then revealed later to someone who could not demonstrate any kind of prophetic authority? Again I ask, should we just believe anyone who claims to be a messenger of God simply because he asserts that an angel told him so, no matter how outlandish and contrary to established truths his writings may be?

robm-
You should not just believe anyone who claims to be a messenger of God simply because he tells some incredible story. What a person should do, if they have an interest, is find out from accurate sources what the story really is, and decide for themselves. In other words, read the Book of Mormon, with an honest heart not having already decided that it is bunk from a charlatan, and ask God in prayer to let the Holy Spirit witness to them if it is true.

Lestat-
Jesus did not scold Thomas for doubting and then insist that he believe by blind faith. Instead, Jesus allowed Thomas to examine Jesus' crucifixion wounds with his own hands. Jesus then said that blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. But we have eyewitness accounts, including that of Thomas, to believe. Jesus performed miracles among many witnesses to demonstrate his authority from God the Father. He knew that people would have these accounts on which to base their faith, even though they themselves could not touch Jesus wounds. Mormons seem to scold doubters and tell them they should have blind faith in Smith's honesty.

robm-
I think it's wrong if some Mormons seem to scold doubters and tell them they should have blind faith in Joseph Smith's story. His story is hard to believe. He himself once said "I make no demands of anyone who does not believe my history. If I hadn't experienced myself what I have experienced, I wouldn't believe it myself." However, many people have come to believe that he indeed was a prophet of God and that he was in fact given revelations and authority to restore the church of Jesus Christ on the earth. The way I came to that belief was mainly through reading the Book of Mormon, along with the Bible and stidying and praying much. I think the Holy Ghost has witnessed the truth of it to me, both to my heart and to my mind.

Lestat-
LDS teaches that Jesus sacrifice was only part of our salvation. Their own web site says that a believer must also follow Biblical law in order to achieve salvation. So Jesus did some of the work, but we can work the rest of our way into heaven. This is clearly unfaithful to the doctrine of sola fide, clearly expressed in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." It doesn't get any clearer than that. The gift of God's grace, not our own works, saves us. If Mormons were correct, then they could boast that they had achieved salvation through their works while other Christians could not or did not. The Bible clearly disagrees with Mormon teaching about the method of our salvation.

robm-
If there is any point of doctrine that has surprised me more that it should be such a source of contention between those who say they follow Christ - meaning, between Mormons and others - I don't know what it is. I'm not sure how to state it any more clearly than has been done in the past, and that has not seemed to settle it. But I'll try. Mormon doctrine is that without the atonement of Christ all mankind would be lost, and none could be justified in returning to Heavenly Father's presence. We believe that a person could labor all their days, and even through eternity, trying to rectify their sins, and do good and become a better person, and they would still come infinitely short of qualifying for Heaven. Such a person would still, in the end, be subject to Satan.

As soon as Mormon doctrine explains any further than that, it seems some people are ready to jump up and denounce, that Mormons are denying the grace of Christ and claiming they can earn their way to heaven. I wish this were not so. You say the Bible doesn't get any clearer than that belief that you have, which apparently is that a person's works has no bearing on their salvation. However, there are many scriptures that teach that works are indeed necessary and that repentance is an essential part of the Gospel. While Mormon's do not believe at all that their efforts qualify them for heaven, they do believe that through repentance Christ's atonement can be made effective in our lives so that His efforts - His infinte grace will cover us so that joint with Christ we qualify to return to the presence of the Father.

In all my years I have never known a Mormon who would think to boast that he or she is earning salvation. Maybe there are some who mistakenly believe such things, but I have not met any, and it certainly is not taught in our religion.

After reading your final comments perhaps I am coming to an understanding of where our beliefs differ.

Are you saying that all a person needs to do is believe in Christ or have Faith in Christ and they have a place in heaven? This brings up some questions in my mind. Can a man do this once, say in his 20's, and then receive salvation no matter what kind of life he leads after that? What if this person later denies the faith? What if he does something truly horrible like... well just image something truly horrible. Are you saying that the only result would be that THIS life would be hard on him as he would suffer loss of the spirit and consequences that society might place on him, etc, but that eternally he'd be fine because his place in heaven was secured as a young man that accepted Christ?

If that's what you believe then in fact there is a difference in our doctrine, but not so great that I would deny you the label Christian. However, I can certianly understand your wanting to deny Mormons and separate yourselves from them in some way. Perhaps denying them the label Christian is the best way you can think of doing it. But honestly, I have a hard time thinking that this one doctrine is universally understood and held by all the vast people who claim to be Christians just in the way that your group does, and that the only ones who believe like the Mormons do on this one doctrine are the Mormons themselves.

One thing I don't really understand very well is the claim by some that this free gift from Christ comes to all regardless of their works, regardless of what they do. But it seems to me that even under this way of thinking, a person still has to "do" something; they have to come to Christ and accept him as their Savior. Whatever a person thinks that means, it is still an act, a work, something a person necessarily does in order to receive the grace of Christ and salvation. So, in one way of thinking, it is a "works" doctrine, and those who do not that one important "work" will not receive salvation.

Lestat-
I've already pointed out direct contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon (or whatever other LDS scriptures on which they base their beliefs) on two key doctrines: man becoming a god; and the method of our salvation. I really only needed to point out one to prove my point, but now you have two examples, one of which I know comes straight from the keyboards of the LDS leadership.

robm-
The direct contradiction between the Bible and Book of Mormon on the method of salvation I honestly don't think is so clear cut. I really believe that there are enough teachings in the Bible that explain the process of repentance and how both faith and works are required to at least make it debatable, if not convincing, to an impartial judge that Mormon doctrine on salvation is correct.

If you want, I will take some time to respond on the topic of "man becoming a god" because that really seems to bother a lot of people. But I have to go for now. Please reply and let me know if you want to discuss it further, or if you'd like more details on some of the things I made reference to above. In fact, I wouldn't mind corresponding directly if you want (robsotherstop@yahoo.com), rather than continuing on in comments at the bottom of a previously published story about "politics and religion." Especially, because although there are significant differences in doctrine, I don't see where they have much to do with Mitt Romney's candidacy for President.
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