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Monday, September 29, 2008
AP News :: Townhall.com Columnist
House ignores Bush, rejects $700B bailout bill
by AP News
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WASHINGTON (AP) -- In a stunning vote that shocked the capital and worldwide markets, the House on Monday defeated a $700 billion emergency rescue for the nation's financial system, ignoring urgent warnings from President Bush and congressional leaders of both parties that the economy could nosedive without it.

Stocks plummeted on Wall Street, beginning their plunge even before the 228-205 vote to reject the bill was officially announced on the House floor. The Dow Jones industrials sank nearly 700 points for the day.

Democratic and Republican leaders alike said they were committed to trying again, though the Democrats said GOP lawmakers needed to provide more votes. Bush huddled with his economic advisers about a next step.

In the House chamber, as a digital screen recorded a cascade of "no" votes against the bailout, Democratic Rep. Joe Crowley of New York shouted news of the falling stocks. "Six hundred points!" he yelled, jabbing his thumb downward.

Bush and a host of leading congressional figures had implored the lawmakers to pass the legislation despite howls of protest from their constituents back home. Not enough members were willing to take the political risk just five weeks before an election.

"No" votes came from both the Democratic and Republican sides of the aisle. More than two-thirds of Republicans and 40 percent of Democrats opposed the bill.

The overriding question for congressional leaders was what to do next. Congress has been trying to adjourn so that its members can go out and campaign. "We are ready to continue to work on this," said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., chairman of the House Financial Services Committee.

"The legislation may have failed; the crisis is still with us," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., in a news conference after the defeat.

"What happened today cannot stand," Pelosi said. "We must move forward, and I hope that the markets will take that message."

At the White House, Bush said, "I'm disappointed in the vote. ... We've put forth a plan that was big because we've got a big problem." He pledged to keep pressing for a measure that Congress would pass.

Republicans blamed Pelosi's scathing speech near the close of the debate - which attacked Bush's economic policies and a "right-wing ideology of anything goes, no supervision, no discipline, no regulation" of financial markets - for the vote's failure.

"We could have gotten there today had it not been for the partisan speech that the speaker gave on the floor of the House," Minority Leader John Boehner said. Pelosi's words, the Ohio Republican said, "poisoned our conference, caused a number of members that we thought we could get, to go south."

Rep. Roy Blunt, R-Mo., the whip, estimated that Pelosi's speech changed the minds of a dozen Republicans who might otherwise have supported the plan.

Frank said that was a remarkable accusation by Republicans against Republicans: "Because somebody hurt their feelings, they decided to punish the country."

The presidential candidates kept close track - from afar.

In Colorado, Democrat Barack Obama said, "Democrats, Republicans, step up to the plate, get it done."

Republican John McCain spoke with Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke before leaving Ohio for a campaign stop in Iowa, a spokeswoman said.

Monday's action had been preceded by unusually aggressive White House lobbying, and Fratto said that Bush had been making calls to lawmakers until shortly before the vote.

Bush and his economic advisers, as well as congressional leaders in both parties had argued the plan was vital to insulating ordinary Americans from the effects of Wall Street's bad bets. The version that was up for vote Monday was the product of marathon closed-door negotiations on Capitol Hill over the weekend.

"We're all worried about losing our jobs," Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., declared in an impassioned speech in support of the bill before the vote. "Most of us say, 'I want this thing to pass, but I want you to vote for it - not me.' "

With their dire warnings of impending economic doom and their sweeping request for unprecedented sums of money and authority to bail out cash-starved financial firms, Bush and his economic chiefs have focused the attention of world markets on Congress, Ryan added.

"We're in this moment, and if we fail to do the right thing, Heaven help us," he said.

The legislation the administration promoted would have allowed the government to buy bad mortgages and other rotten assets held by troubled banks and financial institutions. Getting those debts off their books should bolster those companies' balance sheets, making them more inclined to lend and easing one of the biggest choke points in the credit crisis. If the plan worked, the thinking went, it would help lift a major weight off the national economy that is already sputtering.

More than a repudiation of Democrats, Frank said, Republicans' refusal to vote for the bailout was a rejection of their own president.

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Here is your straight talk
The only reason the Dow plummeted today was that the bailout bill contained a one-page provision giving authority to the SEC to suspend Rule 157 of the FASB, which required mark-to-market accounting. (The FASB is a private entity, but the SEC has officially authorized it to designate accounting methods, so the FASB is a de facto government bureaucracy).

The market was hoping for that suspension so that balance sheets could reflate so that companies would no longer have to sell off to meet capital requirements.

You heard it here first, people. Mark this post.

Soy un Penderdor/Penderdora
The two losers politically today were John McCain and Nancy Pelosi.

I mean who cares about Nancy Pelosi anyway but John McCain could lose it all on this. I hope he has got a good retirement plan... wait... he probably lost it all gambling on the stock market.

The winners: the American people god willing. I hope you conservative freaks are right on this one... cause my investments are tanking fast.

hmmmmm
I am surprised that my Congressman voted against it, he is a democrat. I guess since it is a somewhat a swing district and think he was getting lots of calls and emails saying how many were against the stupid bailout.

Just tell the d___ facts on this and don,t try and hide stuff under the tables. Ha i want to know when my Congressman is going to call for the former heads of fannie and freddie. and how about Angelo M. and friends of Angelo and we know some of them and how corrupt they are. Are you listening Sen.Dodd? the list goes on.

A Big Thank You
After complaining for years about the left wing kooks, I express my thanks, today, to the RIGHT WING KOOKS in the House that just decided to destroy this nation's economy and the life savings of millions of people. Today, we saw the end of the Republican Party and the self-destruction of conservatism in this Republic.

As the first great depression moved millions into the Democratic party, this vote today in the House will push millions more into the arms of big government Dems. The bail-out bill proposed was certainly not perfect, but a good first step to moderate the serious financial crisis we face. However, a bunch of holier-than-thou conservatives decided that a political philosophy is more important than the people.

Hell, when I saw both Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich against this bill, I knew it was the right thing to do! The election of Obama is now certain, the end of the GOP is assured. Ideological stubborness just pushed this country into the second great depression.

Obama/Biden '08

Yo Fred
You're the one blaming black people.

The CRA was signed into law by the Peanut Man Carter. And Slick Willie threatened the mortgage industry to do more sub-prime loans or face the Reno inquisition.

Try this for size,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU6fuFrdCJY


CRA versus Sub-Prime
Please do not confuse CRA loans with sub-prime mortgages----they are NOT the same thing. Banks are not forced to make bad loans under CRA. They chose to make bad loans under sub-prime.

I've never originated a CRA loan that wasn't covered by mortgage insurance. Hmmm... why aren't these loans covered by mortgage insurance?

My question is: What types of loans are in default? "A Paper", "A Minus Paper", or "B/C Paper (a.k.a., Sub-Prime)" How can this be found out?

Karl Marx said it no better
Text of Draft Proposal for Bailout Plan


Published: September 20, 2008

LEGISLATIVE PROPOSAL FOR TREASURY AUTHORITY

TO PURCHASE MORTGAGE-RELATED ASSETS

Section 1. Short Title.

This Act may be cited as ____________________.

Sec. 2. Purchases of Mortgage-Related Assets.

(a) Authority to Purchase.--The Secretary is authorized to purchase, and to make and fund commitments to purchase, on such terms and conditions as determined by the Secretary, mortgage-related assets from any financial institution having its headquarters in the United States.

Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21draftcnd.html

This thread is being edited
Communist Party USA love this plan

A Dose of Socialism to Forestall Disaster

By John Case

The interventions by the Federal Reserve, and the US treasury department have been dramatic and unprecedented in many ways. Against hysterical and ignorant criticism from the free-marketers in their own party, Ben Bernanke and Henry Paulson appear to have drawn the correct conclusions, albeit some years after the they were due – that a measure of socialism is the only, repeat only, course that can avert catastrophe. The only question is: will it be enough socialism to stay the dragon of world-wide depression and the fires of war that would surely follow in its wake?

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Bernake and Paulson have clearly been reading Hyman Minsky and and Charles Kindleberger – latter day closet Marxians and "long wavers" – and they GET IT:

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/7427/

Wall Street Bailout 101 Part 1
The meltdown in the financial markets has caused the finger of blame to spin like a weathervane in a hurricane. The underlying cause of the debacle, however, has been largely ignored. Driven by ‘progressive’ Democrats and Republicans, the cause is the relentless shift from a free market economy to a socialist economy.

Until the Roosevelt era, the responsibility and privilege of having a home was left solely to the individual.

Few people realize that Fannie Mae (Federal National Mortgage Association) was created in 1938 by FDR, to provide a federal guarantee for home loans extended by local banks. Freddie Mac (Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation) was created in 1970, during Nixon's reign.

Both were designed to buy mortgages from local lenders as a way to insure an adequate supply of money for local lenders. These ‘secondary’ mortgages were packaged into ‘bundles’ of securities that were traded among an array of financial institutions.


It's a shame that "Free Market"
supporters have suddenly become Socialists. You're telling me that the Federal Government is the only institution capable enough and responsible enough to handle this crisis?

Then why oppose Federal Government intervention in the economy when times are good?

Read this: http://mises.org/story/3131

And, if you like, read what I've said about this situation: http://cavalier973.blogtownhall.com/

I'm inclined to agree with eddie2; I think that while we are in a serious situation, I have doubts that we're in some sort of apocalyptic situation, because I just don't trust people with an obvious motive for grabbing a lot of power suddenly wanting to quickly get "something" done.

Wall Street Bailout 101 Part 2
“During the 1960s, the United Nations produced the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. Article V(e)(iii) proclaimed that all people had a ‘right’ to housing. Both the Kennedy and Johnson administrations supported the treaty, but it was not ratified until the Clinton administration, Nov. 20, 1994.

“...To meet its obligations under the U.N.'s Racial Discrimination Treaty, the Clinton administration instructed Fannie Mae to expand loans to low-income borrowers, according to Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman.

“Thus, the ‘sub-prime’ market was born, and government guaranteed-loans were extended to millions of families who could not qualify for a mortgage in a free market economy, but easily qualified under the new socialist scheme.

“In 2005, Republican senators saw the danger and tried to reform these institutions with the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulator Reform Act (S.190), but Democrats blocked the bill.

“...AIG, the international insurance giant, and other Wall Street and international financial institutions bought the bundles of mortgage securities that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac offered. Everybody involved made a ton of money, and housing for low-income families expanded exponentially – just as the Treaty on Racial Discrimination and the proponents of sustainable development had predicted.


SteveL
Yes, the Dow dropped tremendously. Yes, people’s 401ks have lost great value. Yes, home prices nationwide are plummeting. And yes, many people are and will continue to suffer great losses. But, the losses are not real because the gains were a hallucination.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average, which started in 1896, did not go over 1000 until the early 1980s. Form the early 1980s until about 2000, the DJ went to 10,000. So while it took over 80 years to rise to 1,000, it only took 18 or so years to go from 1,000 to 10,000.

Just like the perceived value of American homes two years ago, home values that were an illusion, the current value of the American stock market is also an illusion.

It is time to return to sustained "real" economic growth.

This will of course require that foreigners stop underwriting American profligacy.

The party had to come to an end sooner or latter. I choose sooner!

Wall Street Bailout 101 Part 3
“With all the new loans being made, the home building industry flourished, the real estate industry flourished, all industries related to housing flourished – until the market became saturated.

“Home values stopped rising. Housing inventories began to rise. Home values began to decline. Foreclosures began to rise. Homebuilding slowed, housing-related industries began to lay off workers. Energy prices began to rise. Paychecks fell short of family needs. Foreclosures skyrocketed.

“Suddenly, there was little or no value in the bundles of security Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had packaged. Financial institutions found themselves in possession of massive ‘assets’ that had no value. Creak, crumble, crash! The financial markets came tumbling down.

“The piper must be paid. The question is whether to do it now – and let the chips fall where they may, or, to kick the can down the road and pay the piper later.

“The answer, of course, is to kick the can into the next generation, with another leap toward socialism. The bailout plan – whatever the particulars – is nothing short of a government takeover of the financial industry. The next president will have to sort it out and build the road toward future recovery or final disaster.”

- Columnist Henry Lamb

Wall Street Bailout 101 Part 3
“With all the new loans being made, the home building industry flourished, the real estate industry flourished, all industries related to housing flourished – until the market became saturated.

“Home values stopped rising. Housing inventories began to rise. Home values began to decline. Foreclosures began to rise. Homebuilding slowed, housing-related industries began to lay off workers. Energy prices began to rise. Paychecks fell short of family needs. Foreclosures skyrocketed.

“Suddenly, there was little or no value in the bundles of security Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had packaged. Financial institutions found themselves in possession of massive ‘assets’ that had no value. Creak, crumble, crash! The financial markets came tumbling down.

“The piper must be paid. The question is whether to do it now – and let the chips fall where they may, or, to kick the can down the road and pay the piper later.

“The answer, of course, is to kick the can into the next generation, with another leap toward socialism. The bailout plan – whatever the particulars – is nothing short of a government takeover of the financial industry. The next president will have to sort it out and build the road toward future recovery or final disaster.”

- Columnist Henry Lamb

Paulson, Frank, and Dodd Must Resign!
How can anyone expect scoundrels like Paulson, Dodd, and Frank to fix what ails the economy. They, and many others like them, screwed it up.

Scrap the Community Reinvestment Act and the monstrous entities that arose from it such as Fannie Mae. The mortgage products that resulted from CRA, such as no down payment mortgages, must be ended.

There is no constitutional right to own a home.

Prosecute all criminals, whether in government or in the private sphere, who have taken part in destroying America’s finance system. Seize all of their ill-gotten assets and turn them over to the treasury.

Craft a non-socialist economic package that does not reward irresponsible behavior, does not expand the size of the federal government, and does not concentrate massive economic power in the hands of just a few persons.

The process of crafting a new bill must be made completely open to the public. As long as the usual skullduggery behind closed doors continues, the people will never trust the Congress.

This process must proceed carefully and cautiously. Those who would steamroll the process by insidious fear mongering should be run out on a rail.

I feel the same way today that I felt about 16 months ago when the immigration
bill was killed. Freedom and Democracy sometimes win the day.

Lessons are only learned with real pain
That is the truth. Last night I saw Pelosi and friends leave their huddle with smiles, hugs, waving at reporters for a job well done. I wrote to her to wipe off that smile, that I bitterly resented that those that chose to take a vacation while this crisis was brewing are now feeling so proud. GET A LIFE NANCY PELOSI . Shame on you for taking that month off and instead going on your own personal book tour. At least stupid ACORN is off the bailout. Now those with a spine need to make sure the assets are fair market valued and if not let those banks sit in their own stench. What angers me the most is that nobody is taking any responsibility and instead lobbing bombs at the other side which is makes them all look like a bunch of kindergartners. I can tell you that the democrats I know do not support this bailout. Everybody I know believes the whole lot of them are corrupt regardless of party. For whatever reasons the dems and republicans that stood solid today deserve my praise. Stocks will tumble, they always do during a crisis, but at some point they go back up. I still believe this bailout is a bad plan because it makes our nation move more towards a socialist structure which I would never support.

STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES
Little Miss. Nancy PP sure proved she is about the most stupid member of the House. With her and Barney Frank continually screwing things up, Congress continues to prove they all just need to permanently go home. Goodness, can't the American people vote these idiots out? SHAME ON SAN FRANCISCO FOR CONTINUALLY SENDING NANCY P. BACK TO WASHINGTON.

Exactly, WDS...
"But, the losses are not real because the gains were a hallucination."

Very well said, your whole post.

I am so pleased that this thing did not go through.

Now onto common sense, and real gains. I lost money today, so I start anew and save more.

Tough times ahead while we adjust? Sure, but we've been through tough times before, no?

That our country will not have such an easy access to credit is a good thing, in my book.

Start using cash and be prudent. It won't kill us!

Teflon:
You are part of the problem with the new generation, What's in it for me? I think our country becoming Nationalized should bring more fear into your brain. It is capitalism that makes this country go; yet, the people who caused this problem are also the same people who want to fix it. You do your voting, but think about what is happening. There is no panacea for this mess by coverting capitalism to socialism. The economy is crashing because of hand-outs, people living above their means, no personal responsibility, and a government that chains progress and rewards failure, not to mention sending money overseas instead of drilling here because people are worried about birds instead of common sense.

More than one way
There is more than one approach that can be made to work on this problem. The Reps need to put forth a credible plan and they will get enough Dems out of fear to go along.

Fraud and Money Skimming
No accountability, but we still want 700 billion. The banking industry is trying to rob this country blind along with their willing lackey's in the Congress and the Senate.
There are CEO's and politicians receiving Grand Jury Indictments instead of golden parachutes and bribery money.
Come to think of it the politicians are running the largest fraud and money skimming operation in our history and the Speaker of the House does nothing but offer the guilty protection.

Pelosi Is Deluded
How come Pelosi was insulting the Republicans while asking for their votes? Is she nuts? Most people know that you shouldn't slap people around if you desire their cooperation. She lacks leadership qualities needed to convince people in her causus and across the aisle to support her goals. It's laughable that Democrats ask for bipartisanship and in the next breath starts lambasting the Republicans. All Pelosi had to do was to obtain 12 more Democrats to vote yea but could not do that. Glad to see that she and her cohorts went down in flames.

When Barney Frank is in favor...
--
...and Barney Frank is one of the chief perpetrators of this regulated-into-chaos violation of every protection the free market provides to prevent these kinds of catastrophes, the only *SANE* thing for a U.S. Representative to have done today was to oppose this cyanide enema.

I agree with a several of the earlier posters on this subject, both here and elsewhere. Barney Frank should resign. He's irrevocably tainted, and everything he advocates or has a hand in *MUST* be considered nothing more than a continuation of the bad policies that resulted in this mess in the first place.

Better to have left Husband Kimmel in command of the Pacific Fleet after Pearl Harbor, f'chrissake. Even if he were capable of doing the job, what sailor, aviator, or Marine would trust him?

The socialists of both parties have been screaming about how bad this problem is, how it could well result in toppling our economy (which they have made into an unstable house of cards, rotten at its base with the fraudulence of the Federal Reserve System) into chaos if something - specifially, an even more massive dose of socialist interference - isn't done.

And yet *NONE* of the men and women responsible for allowing this to happen (or, more realistically, forcing it to happen) have resigned in disgrace.

Are they not responsible? They've had the authority - by a Constitution-busting damnsight they arrogated unto themselves that authority - and the ship's run aground on their watch.

Are there not other men and women who can take up the effort to fix what they've broken?

You damn' betcha there are.

So why are we hearing *ANYTHING* from Dodd and Frank and Pelosi and Reid except:

"Woops! My bad! Here's my letter of resignation. Can I get Secret Service protection until I can get my butt safely out of the country?"

--

Old Progrmr
You're funny! Yes, 2/3's of the Republicans voted against this bill. But 40% of Democrats did as well. IF the "great" dems thought it was so good, why did 95 of them also vote no? All that was needed was for 12 of them to go along with the party.

I guess we'll never know....

Pete
Of Course she is--she's a dumbolcrap/comiqr
(see my The Big Mick bog on TH for the etymology of the terminological exactitude "commiqr"). You can't be a DC/CQ without lying to yourself first! This is what she and her SanFran ilk believe. You want change in this country, indeed if you want the Republic to survive, Peegirl and her voters are going to have to be permanently recycled.
Wake me when somebody gets that going.

mick

Note to BarneyPhag
It ain't you who needs to talk nice, old queen.

If you really want a deal send Pelosi around on her knees to do the Lewinski work.

The Big Mick

Crisis
I admit that I am not as smart as a lot of you people who are superior in knowledge of this subject. I have been following this story as closely as anyone, and I've come to the conclusion that this bailout is not the way to fix this. We have a situation here that was created by the government, and now we are supposed to trust the government to fix it? I do understand and recognize that this will lead to an economic decline but I have to ask myself, 'is it worth a massive expansion of the federal government moving inexorably towards socialism to avoid some discomfort now?' I keep hearing people say that if we don't do this, AND RIGHT NOW, then we are screwed forever, and this from people who I respect and trust. I just don't buy it.
If the goal here is to insert some capital into these institutions, then why not do that by cutting capital gains taxes and reducing the corporate tax rates? Why do we have to spend our way out of this? I'm asking any of you people who are smarter than I on this to tell me why I'm wrong.

Sarah Palin must step down!
I'm with Kathleen Parker on this. On Thursday she will just offer herself up for more ridicule and shower dishonor onto the GOP and bring doubt to McCain's judgement.

She has baby Trig. Perfect excuse. Bow out gracefully. The 5-month-old needs her. The Katie Couric interview showed a woman clearly ill at ease with most policy question. Step down. Give McCain a fair shot.

Bryan Li
I despise Republicans for being war-mongering over the past 8 years. Today I salute the House Republicans for showing their spines to uphold their conservative values and speak out for the public. Having said that, the Republican leaders afterwards attributed their refusal to the bill to contempt by democrats. That makes me wonder if they are sincere for their stances.

SJDoc
As Fox "all stars" pointed out there is NO leadership ANYWHERE in the Country on this.

I would suggest this lowest common denominator as greatest common factor lobotomizing down effect is THE result of the Great Follow the (Mythical) Moderate Road. We have no Leaders, look at the Crap both Parties had to choose from.

I say tell Palin to forget about Foreign Policy and look at this as if it were a problem in Leadership, Ethics, Integrity, and Fairness like she already tackled in Alaska. Then tell her to follow her Gut Instincts and start kicking butt.

Put Mama Cuda in charge and get the hell out of her way.

Mick

Barney Frank
I absolutely can not listen to that man. I don't care what his lifestyle choices are the man is an absolute baffoon. He is a second rate hack who deserves to be thrown out of office. The fact that he is for this thing is reason enough for me to be convinced a good thing happened today.

amusing republicans
You guys are hysterical. After 7.5 years of kissing King George's butt your representatives defied him on this one issue. This was King George's plan, a Republican plan and the Republicans voted it down. The Dems didn't want to do this either, they were holding their noses at the stink and voted for it because it was the right thing to do.

Your guys deregulated the investment industry, let the Wall Streeters get away with plundering the markets and you are still voting for them.

And just to let you idiots know, its not Wall Street that is going to be the problem. Wait until you need a loan to fix you water heater, or your roof. You aren't going to get one.

And you better hope your boss doesn't have a line of credit that he or she needs to use to make payroll or you may not be getting a pay check.

There will be no credit so I hope you all have some money laying around when they freeze your credit cards. You are all idiots.

I think...
that vote was a sham, to give people reason to vote Republican in the fall. Look at this headline today from Bloomberg:

"Fed Pumps Further $630 Billion Into Financial System"

The bill might as well have been passed. Get ready for a stiff jolt of inflation.

Josh
It's guys like you who assure me that it's "in the bag" for Palin/Mav. You want her gone so bad it MUST be bad news for the McHo Conservative Haters the Moronic Mythical Middle Mods and the Commiqrs.

I was voting "none of the above" until Palin.
Will do so if she goes. Anything you would gain by a Palin departure you lose in guys like me who would KNOW they were right about all of this being about NOTHING but the Marginalization of Reaganism to extinction in the GOP. Palin tells me there is hope for Reaganism in the GOP, dump her and I, and I hazard a guess millions like me, not a few here on TH, walk with her.

I say let the Hockey Mom clean house on Wall Street.

mick

Remeber who brought this up.
A Republican White House offered up this turkey because of GOP as the happy party of deregulation.You forget who is still president.And he and McCain did not deliver enough GOP votes.Democrats share the blame but the right always looks for a scapegoat to blame.And bringing up the CRA is a credible as Sarah Palin's Russia close to Alaska foreign policy.

hmmmm
What exactly did GW do to cause this problem or what policy of his caused this? NOT COUNTING misplacement of the VETO stamp.

Bryan
They are, you aren't. Pelosi's inane diatribe only reminded them of why they don't want Dumbolcrap/commiqrs monkey-ing with the Economy.
Pelosi showed her TRUE face, she mooned em. Recognizing Crap and calling it that is the epitome of sincerity.

I despise people who talk like you because you can't BE "CONSERVATIVE" and be an appeaser, collaborator, and Quisling, which is what you are if you call self-defense "War mongering."
Take it up with the Sandyknickered Ragheaded Islamanazi Imperialists who started the whole damn thing.

Quislings not only lack sincerity, they lack any "values" worth a damn.

The Big Mick

any idea how "sissy" this sounds?
"We could have gotten there today had it not been for the partisan speech that the speaker gave on the floor of the House," Minority Leader John Boehner said. Pelosi's words, the Ohio Republican said, "poisoned our conference, caused a number of members that we thought we could get, to go south."

Poor baby now you have smudged lipstick and LOTS of BLAME too bad you put party over country. AND TO THINK THE ELDERLY MCCAIN COULDN'T EVEN LEAD ON THIS ONE,,,,

Nancy Pelosi
This woman may be the most incompetent political leader in American history. She might have been able to pull this off if she hadn't chastised all republicans before the vote. The lib strategy is apallingly two faced; they want this thing to pass because they see it for exactly what it is, a massive expansion of government, and at the same time want to blame the republicans for it. So she excoriates the republicans and then demand that they vote with her? She may be even dumber than Barrack Obama, and that's saying something.

Towards a grown up economic policy
Towards a grown up economic policy

Maybe someone FINALLY can begin talking about what we need to do to return this country to solid, stable growth. The current crisis is just a symptom, not the root cause. Underlying what is happening are several issues which need to be discussed:

1. Out of control government spending. Earmarks are just one small example. We have endless examples of ineffective, unnecessary government spending which is way higher than our current tax receipts. McCain’s promise to veto any bill with earmarks is a start – but it needs to go a lot further than that.

2. The looming crisis of Social Security and Medicare spending. If no one has noticed (HELLO OUT THERE) the baby boomers are retiring NOW.

3. Our debased currency. We are trying to print our way out of problems, which is fueling bubbles like the current one. Ron Paul and Steve Forbes both have important perspectives on this. This needs to be raised as an issue.

4. The role of regulation. Fannie Mae and government guarantees of mortgages and mortgage backed securities is one of the root causes of the current blow up. If the citizens knew that the end game for these monsters was that they were going to be broken into pieces and privatized, there would be a very positive impact.

If McCain would advance a credible economic plan which would address these issues, I think the undecided voters and the markets would respond very well.

The underlying assets of the USA are very solid – our workforce, technology, infrastructure and natural resources. Someone needs to send a message that we are going address our economic issues in an adult way.

TheBigMick
"Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 8:02 PM EST ...I despise people who talk like you because you can't BE "CONSERVATIVE" and be an appeaser, collaborator, and Quisling, which is what you are if you call self-defense "War mongering."
Take it up with the Sandyknickered Ragheaded Islamanazi Imperialists who started the whole damn thing."

Hey little fella is it true that VA is now safe for Obama? You psuedo "tough guys" are a joke

Geesh

Hal
Don't you think it would have been sissier to listen to Speaker Nitwit call the GOP a bunch of S.O.B's and then turn around and vote with her? The line on all of this is that over the weekend there was all kinds of deal-making being done to make all of this work, and if that's the case then why would any republican trust her after that speech? By the way what does that say about the 40% of democrats who voted against this thing?

WAY Down South: AGREED 100%

And, you can add Pelosi to that list as well!

I cannot believe they they actually put Dodd and Franks IN OUR FACES, and initially tried to put ACORN (20% btw) on the list of recipients!!!

And the biggest INSULT of them all is that they put Dodd (who got more than anyone ... second only to Marxist Obama) from Mac & Mae, and freaky old pervert Barney Franks who threw fits when Pres. Bush (2003) and Sen. McCain co-sponsored a bill (2005) to investigate this sub-prime mess, not only in front of the cameras, but in a strategic place to get us out of this mess.

And THEN we get a face full of Marxist Obama blaming Pres. Bush, yet he not only get money from Mac & Mae and Lehman Bros.

Kind of like putting the damn foxes in charge of the hen house.

And then Pelosi has the hubris to get up in front of the cameras and blame this on "Bush's failed admin."

And yet, 95 dems DIDN'T vote for this bail out bill...


Robert/Ranger, your post @8:20
For once I totally agree with you.

Professional Wrestling and Soap Operas
Does anyone here actually believe the bailout isn't occurring anyway? Seriously?

Our government is filled with criminals. What stopped this bill was simply that it was too "hot" meaning it was dominating the media and people were freaking out. Next week, quietly, a replacement bill (with the same exact language) will pass.

I mean, the money has already been handed out, a piece of paper with the congress and senates signatures on it is all that is missing. And that is just a technicality.

Trust me. The bailout already happened. You can take that to the bank.

Sandra - There's certainly blame enough
--
...to go around, and the members of the Republican Party deserve their share.

But your fantasy about them having "deregulated the investment industry" is both loathesome and risible.

If the GOP fails to serve these United States properly, it's because they've been the party of political economic regulation - *NOT* deregulation, no matter how much they've dissembled - to favor established actors in the various segments of society which make up certain of their core constituencies.

You doubtless favor the National Socialists who presently masquerade in place of the Democrat Party, which (when they were known as "Bourbon Democrats") once stood firmly in support of gold-based currency, freedom of trade, anti-imperialism, and government minimal in size, cost, scope, and intrusive power.

It was the Republicans who were "in favor of a national bank, of the internal improvement system, and high protective tariff."

(( see *Young Mr. Lincoln*, 1939 ))

I.E., inflation of the currency (the purpose of any national bank), taxpayer-funded pork, and restraint of trade to benefit big business while beggaring the consumer.

The Democrat Party merely took up the Republican platform and went even deeper into the sewer.


The question is not whether National Socialists exclusively or Republicans alone are to blame for this mess, or whether either your "Liberal" champions can do a better job of addressing the problems than can the witless putzes of the GOP.

Neither can. Government intervention - undertaken conjointly by Republicans and by the National Socialists who hang a (D) after their names - caused this reeking horror, and if you conjure somehow that only *MORE* goverenment intervention can resolve it, you're entirely too stupid to continue breathing.


Which last isn't really so bad. We need organ donors, y'know.

--

HalD..Actually it was Pelosi that put ..
Party over Country. She went all partisan in her comments knowing full well that the agreement was to display bi-partisanship to get the bill passed with half the yea votes coming from republicans. After she spouted her outrageous lies to cast republicans and the Bush administration as the cause of the problem in the first place...any republican that voted for the bill would have appeared in agreement with her comments. It was rather telling that she was not allowed to answer when the press asked her about her motivation for her comments. Barney Franks...of all people bullied his way in, then some other guy. It was almost as if the response was planned :) I do have to admit that trying to cover up for her causing the blowup
by blaming conservative "sensitivities" was a nice try! Pelosi blew it...they all knew it so now they must spin their way out :)

Vindex: Good point! And, I can't believe

that there is anyone who can possibly believe that this melt down happening THIS WEEK was just a coincidence!

Fat chance!!!

And, no doubt, "we the people" would feel a whole lot better about this if it was a govt. LOAN opposed to a govt. bail out... with a payback schedule. Some kind of guarantee that we'd be getting some kind of a return on our investment....

And THEN we can run Palosi, Dodd, Franks, and Marxist Obama out of town on a rail!!!




Scotch Indian
You can add to your list;
1. Eliminate the capital gains tax and corporate taxes. Thinking people understand that corporations never pay taxes, their consumers do.
2. Eliminate the restrictions on domestic drilling of oil and gas.
3. Eliminate the assanine restrictions on fuel-grade requirements so as to make the building of new oil refineries profitable.
4. Reduce federal income taxes to 20-25%, and make it accross the board.
5. Kick democrats the hell out of Washington.

I realize all of this goes diametrically against the liberal agenda, but my agenda is strengthening the country, not advancing liberalism.

Vindex
Damn you, you're probably right.

Pelosi... Put a sock in it
Pelosi, Dodd, Frank, please resign... NOW! You obviously do not have any idea how your failed Marxist policies have harmed the country.
Today, the bill was doomed to fail by a slim margin, because it was too Socialistic. However, Pelosi should blame her own mouth for the reason why 95 of her own party members voted *against* her failed bill. Does she really expect to garner support by spewing insults?

Go V-man

HankRearden: Spot on! But you do realize

that donahooey doesn't know squat about anything....

He just has diarrhea of the mouth... You know, one of those folks who would be far better off to keep his mouth shut and let us wonder what kind of an idiot he truly is, rather than open his mouth and remove ALL DOUBT about what kind of an idiot he is.

There must be something in the water in and around Scranton. donahooey seems to have to same "foot-in-mouth" disease as does Bonehead Biden!



Here's The Best Reason Yet...
Here’s what MY representative (a Democrat) said in voting against the bailout:

“We are now in the golden age of thieves. And where I come from we put thieves in jail, we don’t bail them out.” — Rep. Pete Visclosky, Democrat.

Needles to say, I’ve written to thank him for voting his conscience instead of party.

Halsapukin 8:22
only if it was "safe" for Mac the Knife last week.
Surely you remember I was planning on voting "none of the above" until Palin.

I have pointed out that now I win either way!

Hey Halsapukin,How do you know I’m only a “pseudo tough guy”? Just cause I haven’t killed anybody yet doesn’t mean I’m not WILLING to n’est ce pas? But even bracketing my “toughness” out as unproven and unprovable, in this context, do you rate AmentotheJihad as a PTG or not?
He’s the one having elementary kids produce stories and cartoons dismissing the Holocaust as a Zionist Terrorist Lie. You and Bryan siding with him now? Howbout OBL? PTG? Was it “war mongering” to go after him? The Taliban? THEY didn’t directly attack us you know. Sodem?
PTG or Horrific Madman? Should we have just left him alone , killing and raping millions of his own people (but they don’t count to you, right, just women and Arabs, incapable of democracy right?) till he got a nuke and set it off in, say, Baltimore? I suppose you will argue that all those Marsh Arabs and Kurds and Iranians he gassed were just Zionist lies, huh. He really was a pusscat, a reasonable guy you could negotiate with. Those little jaunts into Iran and Kuwait weren’t “warmongering” no, just a visit by the Chamber of Commerce.

[------]Fill in the disapprobation questioning your intelligence of your choice.

Mick

The People: 1 Democraps: 0!!!
I love it when republican ideals win the day. I'm not talking about the republican party. I'm talking about the fact that we are a republic. Americans were represented today by the repbublicans and democrats who refused to vote for this ridiculous mistake foisted on the American People by a group of short sited power hungry elite.
Good for us!

We need to fire Pelosi as speaker of the house. Why wasn't she prosecuted for her little stint to the Middle East? Hmm... Maybe we should stir that soup a little...

Democrats cause the bailout to fail.
94 democrats voted against this bill, they are in the majority.
1) The Democrats failed to pass the bailout.
With legislation forcing lenders to lend money with a higher debt to income ratio's (democrats) along with forcing Freddie and Fannie to back insane loans so everyone can own a house. WELL that wasnt a good idea.

2) The Wonderful Barney Franks said there is nothing wrong with Freddie and Fannie just 2 years ago.

3) Today they created a Bailout with full of kickbacks for Acorn and others.
WELL that was helping the country go farther down the tubes.
4) Who was supposed to look after our money for the bailout? OH YEAH the SEC and Paulson and HUD
all of which failed in every way..

This bill was killed dead today.
Maybe this will come back with out all the
junk.

B: Pelosi has NO CLUE what "bi-partisan"

or "for the country" even means.

No wonder the House has turned into a cesspool with an approval rating of 7%...

Not too long ago Karl Rove said that the only reason it was as good as 7% was because "blood relatives and paid staff" had to give them a good approval rating.... :-)



Anne
Of course I realize who Hal is and that no amount of reasoned argument will change his narrative of reality. In fact I have long since abandoned debating liberals; it is like teaching a pig to sing; like p_ssing up a rope; like nailing jello to the wall; like wall-papering fog; etc., etc. I respond for the benefit of anybody who may read it and find some credence in it. Exposing liberal hypocrisy isn't even hard anymore, it's as easy as the day is long, almost second nature, and while it won't do a damned thing to change Hal's mind, it still must be done.

Michael
That just proves, once again, that conservatism is an ideology, not a political party. I have said for years that there are conservtives hanging around in both parties.

Some people unfortunately believe that the Republican party is full of conservatives.

That whole scam is simply to keep us divided while the conquerers do their conquering and rip our country apart.

Ranger29
"Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 8:20 PM EST Hal. This thing failed in large part
because the people have lost complete respect for both the government heads (of both parties) and the "media elite".

It is a complete repudiation of the governing class..."

Nope it is a complete I am madder than hell and won't take it any more. Guess what, play acting by your guy probably put paid to him.

This is the final meltdown of conservatism. The future will return to the compromisers and the future rather than fear and the past

The Government
is our enemy not any one political party.

Perbert aka RangerRobert
Re Repudiation of the ruling class:

Which would include “Master and Commander” and Obamiecommie, now wouldn’t it? But WOULDN’T include Palin with an 80% butt kickin insider trashin approval rating, would it?

Sic the Hockey Mom on Wall Street, K Street and Penn.Ave and let her chew!

The Big Mick

According to the article
"Democratic and Republican leaders alike said they were committed to trying again, though the Democrats said GOP lawmakers needed to provide more votes."

Now why on earth do GOP lawmakers need to provide more votes? This bill could have passed if the Democrats had all their own vote for it.

Could it be that those Democratic congressmen who vote against it are in agreement with the Republican congressmen that this bill was bad for the nation?

And if some Democratic congressmen disagrees with thier own party, maybe it was Pelosi, Reid, and Bush were wrong.

HankRearden
"Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 8:24 PM EST Hal
Don't you think it would have been sissier to listen to Speaker Nitwit call the GOP a bunch of S.O.B's and then turn around and vote with her? "

Not at all it was the perfect time to say even though she was so extreme we did what was right for the country...
Now you look like whiny little party dweebs looking for excuses. They appear to be saying the deal was best for the country but my feelings were hurt. Keep saying it building Obama's margin

"...By the way what does that say about the 40% of democrats who voted against this thing..."

Why vote on a failing vote use it baby use it. You folks sold out the country no one else but then again you caused this debacle

Vindex
"...Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 9:08 PM EST The Government
is our enemy not any one political party. "

Golly gee I agree more with Europe than you extreme conservatives. In Europe governments fear the people in the USA people fear the government. ONLY if you are sheeple do you fear your servant. You folks are far too timid and frightened. If I do not like my government I will change it like I am doing now

Vindex
And both parties have it as their goal to CONTROL the Government! So how does that make EITHER of them NOT our enemy!

Reaganism now, true Smaller Gov Conservatism.
But both parties seek to DESTROY that.

so we are back to both parties BEING our enemy.

mick

Hal
You're dreaming. Most Americans are conservative. Conservatism is nothing more than freedom. Americans still love freedom. Liberalism is little more than insanity, which is one of the many reasons Obama is gonna lose, AND BIG, in November.

House GOP dissed McCain
Well so much for suspending your campaign, ya know "Country First".

Halsapukin 9:08
Spoken like a true Eurofag Quisling Appeaser, Hal.

I see where Obamacomie hasn't had the guts to even come out FOR or AGIN this, now THAT'S an ability to compromise!

Semantically, though, I beg to differ. It doesn't really qualify as "compromise" when you don't have any principles to begin with.

mick

Does someone hear
a misquitoe buzzing around?

Who, What, When and How?
Listening to Hugh, I am wondering how much he has invested in this bail out deal - literally! I realize insiders have information on how to make money while 'saving' we the little people. Please email your congress rep. and tell them that we will rebuild our financial markets - one healthy institution at a time, after we let the crooks and greedy executives self destruct. Who is responsible and what went wrong? Also, how do we ensure we will never get here again? Nobody has these answers but the 'wise guys' who bankrupted us have the solutions - HUH???? Am I living in wonderland? We were supposed to die by now if this wasn't done last week - aaaaaaah. Short of bodies on wall street, let them ride out their own credit cruch. Then we the people can use the 700 billion to build an entirely new system on solid principles. Congress should vote to end the 'community reinvestment act' and ANY OTHER NONSENSICAL ENTITLEMENT before we begin a bail out discussion.

Hal
WRONG. It was liberals like Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and senator doofus himself, who caused this.

TheBigMick
"Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 8:54 PM EST Subject: ...Mick ..."

What the heck did you say LOL

Mark to Market Compromise
Since the markets are in a panic and not pricing properly why not modify the Mark to Market rule for one year only.

Let the assets be valued at the average of both cost and market. That would still make some pricing adjustment for market swings but would take a lot of pressure off of the balance sheets of financial institutions while the markets become more orderly.

That may be enough to get some conservative votes.

The primary problem with this bill is the 700B price tag and the idea that the purchase of bad mortgages will not solve the liquidity problem. Paulson becomes the pricing mechanism for bad mortgages.

The conservatives need to come forward with a combination of approaches that will settle the market that the majority of congress can support.

Between the Administration and the Congress scaring everyone we now have a very real confidence crisis that will cause runs on banks, funds and a flight to t-bills, gold and cash.

It may be best to inject capital directly into any institution worth saving. That solves the liquidity problem. The position can be sold later.

Robert/Ranger
I didn't say most of America are republicans, I said they were conservative, and they are. If republicans did equal conservatism, than the vast majority of the country would be republicans.




Hank Rearden

Halsapukin still
change it like HOW HAL! "Daisy Daisy".
What you going to do? PROMOTE one of the morons from the Worst Congress in HISTORY!!!! That CHANGE for ya Halboy? More commieqr dumbolcrap tax and spend Socialism? Yeah that's real change all right. Americans shouldn't fear Nanny Sammy cause it will take care of us from cradle to grave right, and will talk to those nice little ragheaded gentleman and show them how Nanny Sammy can take care of them too and so we can all live happily together at Nanny's apron strings.

Change is Palin, kid, she's the only New Face in the Crowd. Socialism ain't change, ask the Cubans, North Korea. Hell even FRANCE went more conservative.

mick

Hey Hal
Why not just move to Europe, then? Since the foundation of this country, it has been understood that Government was the enemy of the people.

Hal, you have my blessings to move to Europe where your ideology is in complete agreement with your government. You can post from there, and I'll even give you a holla' now and then.

OPPOSE THE SOCIALIST RESCUE PLAN
Americans Beware…OPPOSE THE SOCIALIST RESCUE PLAN

Stop all this madness! As citizens, we understand the crisis at hand, but we should not support a solution that consolidates power in the federal government as the only way to stave off a complete economic meltdown.

We should be urging Congress to slow down and consider the other free-market solutions that don’t march us off the cliff to socialism and bigger government, both of which I believe must be avoided at all costs.

We understand this is a complex issue. That’s why we needn’t rush into any solutions that could prove far more costly, in more ways than one, to our nation in the long run.

The FED (Democrats & Republicans) got us into this mess and now they want to get us out of it, but only if they can use it for “PORK’N”; hold on to your wallets. One TRILLON is only the beginning of what could be America’s final downfall. They are a bunch of hypocrites and traitors to the principles that makes America the greatest nation on earth. Many should go to jail or at least lose their job; still many more should resign; for they let this happen under their watch.

“WE THE PEOPLE” must take action and prevent this cure from becoming worse than the disease. For if we do nothing, we will have no one to blame but ourselves. Phone, fax, e-mail, write, and sound-off; let your elected officials at all levels of government know how you feel. Stand-up and fight for your liberty and freedom from a government for the few, at the expense of the many.

For Joe-Tax-Payer…to be required to pickup the total cost tab on this mess, is WRONG!!!

http://nkqx57a.blogtownhall.com/2008/09/27/americans_beware %e2%80%a6oppose_the_socialist_rescue_plan.thtml


Birdman - I doubt it
--
Asks Birdman II:

"Could it be that those Democratic congressmen who vote against it are in agreement with the Republican congressmen that this bill was bad for the nation?"


No, it was bad for their jobs.

The National Socialist Party representatives (the guys who hang a (D) after their names to further the illusion that they're not arrant fascists) who voted against the great Cyanide Enema Bailout Bill today were those who had been receiving such vehement negative feedback from the constituencies in their voting districts that they were pretty sure that if they cast their ballots in support of Rep. Frank's plan to screw the nation up the collective butt even harder and deeper, they'd come home to find their houses burned to the ground and their dogs raped.

That kind of exposure to risk even a "Liberal" isn't stupid enough to ignore.





=====
"It is [a politician's] business to get and hold his job at all costs. If he can hold it by lying, he will hold it by lying; if lying peters out, he will try to hold it by embracing new truths. His ear is ever close to the ground."

-- H.L. Mencken

Sarah
"Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 9:23 PM EST Subject: Who, What, When and How?
Listening to Hugh, I am wondering how much he has invested in this bail out deal - literally!"

Shouldn't that be obvious? The "mortgage minute guy" just think back to the ads and emails you have gotten from this site. Hugh is knee deep in investing in the sub-prime markets and every other 'scam' pyramind scheme that is corrupting our economy.

CEOs on the horn tomorrrow
The CEO's of the fortune 500 are gonna be on the horn tomorrow trying to convince those that voted against to change their minds. Wonder how many will?

perbertRangerBob 9:21/23
"How did Reagan define Conservatism?
How is that "melted"?

How does Mack the Knife define it differently?

Is Mack a "Corporatist" or not ? Why?
Was Reagan? Why or why not?

HOW DOES REAGAN DIFFER FROM YOUR MYTHICAL 'RIGHT WING', PerB?

come on perb, you got a chance to prove what you say by cogent argument point by point.
Will you rise to the occasion or chicken out with more of your "death to the right wing" cant?

Spell it out, gutless. I ain't holding my breath.

the big mick

Ranger29
"Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 9:21 PM EST Subject: Hal Donahue no Hal conservatism
as defined by Reagan melted down a long time ago.

What died "today" (it is yesterday for me but who is counting)...is corporatism in politics."


No I disagree. The Republican Party, especially conservatives, thought unbridled capitalism actually worked. As I said in a speech yesterday, Ronnie would be aghast at what he wrought.... You know it and I know it. No one ever thought that extremists would take it to the extreme and say everyone for themselves - that is what you Republicans did today

"....No...it is that everytime Both Bush and Pelosi stood up and said "We ahve to do this" the people calledin and said "no you dont"."

yes they did and now we have no government I am glad I have my nut at least

"The people rejected Pelosi as much as they did Bush."

Nope Bush is the figurehead and now McCain he really is identifed with this now - that could be a fatal error

HankRearden
"If republicans did equal conservatism, than the vast majority of the country would be republicans."

I only wish the Republican party understood this. But, in reality, those elite that control BOTH parties really couldn't care less which party wins. All they are concerned with is making sure they get their puppets through the primaries in both parties. Then let the people fight over party loyalty like it were football teams.

HalDdoopy 9:25
As Samuel Johnson (you DO know who he is, right?)
“I have found you an argument, sir. I am not obliged to furnish you an understanding.”

TBM

CRA not to blame.

The CRA is an easy target since carter was such an idiot but the more I research it the more I think it was not to blame. Check out my blog and please comment but the main point is this:

Only about 20% of the subprime loans were originated in banks regulated by the CRA. Check out this link from the conservative CATO institute.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv23n3/gunther.pdf

They argue that the CRA was unnecesary and redundant because all the other non regulated institutions were making tons of money selling the subprime loans. Here's an excerpt

"Growth in lending to low-income neighborhoods by institutions outside cra’s jurisdiction suggests deregulation and technological advances have increased competition, lowered information costs, and increased access to financial services. As a result, a good part of the lending in low-income neighborhoods by financial institutions subject to cra also might reflect those factors, rather than cra lending mandates. The available data support that proposition. Most of the recent growth in lending by cra-covered institutions in low-income neighborhoods has occurred in areas where the institutions do not operate banking offices and have no cra obligations. The inescapable conclusion is that progress predicated on technology, financial innovation, and competition—not cra—has broadened the U.S. financial services marketplace."

In otherwords it wasn't the CRA that was "forcing" the banks to make subprime loans. It was the fact that these loans were very profitable as long as interest rates were low.

Huh! donahooey ran away again?

Darned if he doesn't do that every time he's faced with FACTS!

And he's got the nerve to call Republicans "cowards?" HA HA HA HA...


Oh, oops... LMAO! :-)




Robert/Ranger
Those virtues that made America what it is equals conservatism. That is exactly what I mean.



Hank Rearden

PerB 9:23
BE SPECIFIC BERT!

If you dare!

And put those specificities in the Matrix of How Reagan Conservatism is distinquished from Macks and from your mythical "right wing".

Cough UP these "differences" you keep saying exist but never DEMONSTRATE, perb!

mick

Hal
Do you even believe the idiotic things you are saying?

Vindex
"Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 9:29 PM EST Hey Hal
Why not just move to Europe, then? Since the foundation of this country, it has been understood that Government was the enemy of the people."

See that is not true at all what is true is foreign government is the enemy of the people. The founding fathers would have said you idiot you are the government

"Hal, you have my blessings to move to Europe where your ideology is in complete agreement with your government. You can post from there, and I'll even give you a holla' now and then."

just as you have my blessings to move to Nigeria which already has the goverence you strive for
and yes I also would send you a Hola' now and then LOL

Hal and commiqrism
the wave of the Future.

Century before last.

mick

donahooey, you should be embarrassed!
Capitalism works just fine unless the socialist dems get their fat fingers into it...

The mortgage industry was working quite well until the dems decided that they had to pressure (AND THEY DID!) the banks to writing sub-prime loans for people who should never have bought a house because they couldn't afford it!!!

Just how dumb does even a dem have to be to pressure any bank to write a mortgage for someone who can't afford to pay it back???

You must think that the American Dream is the same thing as American Rights!

The Constitution only guarantees everyone the RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS and the American dream.

Stop being an a complete idiot! LMAO!


One partial solution
It makes more sense to use the average of Mark to Market and Cost than to repeal Mark to Market.

The bill's primary 700B proposition may not solve the liquidity problem because it does not address the solvency problem.

http://hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc080929.htm

In most situations mark to market makes a lot of sense as investors (like me) have a right to know the quality of the assets on the balance sheet so that we can make good buying (pricing) decisions.

However, in the case of financial institutions the current market for bundled mortgages may not be pricing properly and that ruins the balance sheet of reasonably sound companies.

Why not use the combination of mark to market and cost for a year. That does not cost the taxpayers anything and it takes a lot of pressure off of relatively sound companies until the market sorts out the value of the bad mortgages.







Ranger29

Location: TX

Reply # 98
Date: Sep 29, 2008 - 9:47 PM EST Hal Donahue you contradict yourself
Reagan would be aghast at this group that is running the GOP...Reagan is to me the dfinition of conservatism...so I dont really think that Conservatism failed."

Reagan would be defined as a RINO now they hijacked the term and his name sad but true. To my mind he was far more a pregmatist than a conservative

"What failed, is lassize fare capitalism...a blind man would have suspected that it would...."

Yeah verily but this is what passes as conservatism these days. Rememeber Bill Scranton? He is appalled at what has happened. For print in the local paper he said good things about Obama and said he was undecided

"I am curious...are you for the bailout?"

I am for action having seen the results of non action in Argentina some years back but this plan I was not certain. I suspected the Republicans would scuttle it so wasted little time on it. The time to be scared is when your stock broker calls and says get physical cash - he did earlier this evening

Robert be well and have a good evening

The House voted the peoples' will....
There's no doubt that if the Democrats were united under one, well-written, beneficial to the people legislation, they had the votes to pass without a Republican vote.
I suppose the biggest surprise is how 94 Democrats broke from Pelosi's purported leadership. When the chips were down, they voted the peoples' will along with the House Republicans. I see hope in the halls of Congress. Hopefully, they'll craft legislation that won't cost the tax payor, but rather the conductors of unsound business practices. That sounder legislation is available right now. Representative Eric Cantor of VA authored it.

Get informed
Here's an excellent article that explains what needs to be done.

http://mises.org/story/3131

Robert/Ranger
Capitalism did not fail here, scandalous politicians did. Capitalism is the answer to this.


HankRearden

Hank 9:44 and RangerBobperb
It is my premise that Reagan Conservatism has 6 pillars.
An argument could be made that 3 of them are simply derivatives of a higher principle and thus reduce the Pillars to 3 .

1. “Government IS the Problem.” WAY smaller government, downright minimalist, way less regulation, “oversight” and interference. Way more in the “unbridled” Capitalism camp.
2. (or 1b)Lower Taxes for EVERYBODY! I’m willing to concede this may be a derivative of the first.
3. (or 1c) Strict Constructionist or Originalist Judges. I am willing to Concede this as a derivative as well.
4 (or 2) “Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall.” A willingness to recognize and confront “the axis of evil” on every front. This is clearly NOT a derivative unless you seek a common root for it in the “Defense of Liberty.”
5. (or 2b) The Strongest Most Capable, Best, Military in the World. I am willing to concede this as a derivative of Principle 4/2.
6. (or 3) The Values of Faith and Family. Where the “Silent Majority” and “Moral Majority” overlapped. If anyone wants to argue Reagan himself did not hold this principle I need specifics of ACTION not mere argument from the silence of inaction. I maintain it is a Pillar of Reaganism as practiced by those who revere Reagan.

Where is the rebuttal? Perbert Ranger Bob? Hank? Anybody?
TBM

Robert/Ranger
What Anti-gay movement in the GOP? There is not one serious politician in existance that is Anti-gay. Being for an amendment that defines marriage is not the same thing. I was actually taking you seriously until then.



HankRearden

Mick
Where did you get the idea that I would disagree with any of that?

Who Cares About Politics
You people are splitting hairs on political ideology while the country plunges into financial destruction. It's all over. Tomorrow the DOW plunges 3,000 pts. Your 401k's and life savings disappear while you sit here and argue about politics.

There was a plan to moderate this crisis, but the idiots from both parties decided that their personal radical beliefs were superior to saving the economy. May Nancy Pelosi and her ilk burn in hell for their committment to political advantage over the needs of the country, and that goes for the dumba** Republicans also.

When does the Revolution begin, it had better be pretty soon before there is noting left. Where are the patriots? Where are the heros? Time to meet at the Customs House in Charleston!

Let's all gather! We began two revolutions there, time for another! Anybody interested?

McCain can't help
One of the down sides of being a maverick,the sherif and not ms congeniality is that no one is loyal to you.John McCain has no pull in the House now and will not be able to bend enough to get people on his side if he were to become president.If Pelosi can tick off the right so easily and McCain can't rally any support what good is he? And ask yourself this question.If the property is in a low income area how is it that the price of the house is so out of proportion to the income of the residence in the area?Would you line there at any price?The real estate industry is full of crooks who inflate prices with illegal appraisals and talk people who have little money and education out of the few pennies they have.It is the purpose of the government to protect people from crime.Since this is a government of the people and the people turned a blind eye to the problem we are all stuck with the bill.There are a lot of intelligent writers on this sight,and if you didn't see this coming your were not trying to.You can look for who to blame if you want,but the answer is still everyone.So blame the poor,blame the rich,blame the government,blame the middle class that spent too much on everything.Then figure out which one you are.

Several problems
The system is facing several problems. The so called bail out does not address many of them and it does not address the solvency problems (balance sheet problems) of the financial institutions.

The institutions have to have more capital or less leverage. Japan rigged its accounting in about 2000 and ignored it's bad loans and that is one of the reasons that it had 6 years of recession.

A temporary (one year) combination of mark to market and cost would avoid the problems that Japan experienced but it would also give the solvent companies some breathing room while the market figures out how to deal with the bad mortgages.

It will also help on the liquidity problem.

The Reps can come up with a combination of provisions that will solve most of the immediate problems and that will pass.

The current bill seems flawed. http://hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc080929.htm

Hank
You are talking to what Tom Payne would call a dead man, Hank. Ranger Bob has renounced the use of Reason. There are pleanty out there who have debunked "liberalism" as our National heritage, linking it to National Socialism.
Ask Coulter (who RangerBob HATES) about this.
Perb is also apparently unaware that Conservatism as practiced by Reagan was ANTI-Government, just like the Founders.

Note again, for the Record, Perb is AGAINST ONE THING, the injection of Morality into Politics.
That's his WHOLE THING. That's his straw buggie man for the mythical "right wing" that's HIS version of Goldwaterism--forgetting Barry came to that bigoted point of view in his SENILITY!

ASK HIM WHAT PROBLEMS HE THINKS ONLY GOVERNMENT CAN SOLVE????

ASK HIM if HE is in FAVOR of "lassize Fair" Capitalism and is that "corporatism"?

see if he'll answer. He hasn't ever yet?

He may be a Pseudolibertinearian or a Gilt Bird Cabin CINO GOPper or a Moronic Mythical Middle Mod, but he ain't no Reaganite.

Mick

Robert/Ranger
You're not listening(suprise,suprise). Capitalism did not imperil the state, corrupt politicians did, assuming that the state is in peril to begin with.

Hal and Perbert
And the continued expansion of the borders of the possible.

Reagan is a RHINO.

Right Wingers Aren't True Conservatives.

Peace is War, Freedom is Slavery, Lies are Truth.

They only missed it by what 24 years?

The Big Mick

Mick
I know this, in fact Robert has proven himself to be a fraud on multiple occasions. I'm not trying to reach him, as I said earlier, arguing with liberals is pointless. Understand, friend, I'm on your side.

Hank, 10:09
Didn’t think YOU would, but I want to see if Ranger PerBert is willing to give specifics to YOU.
He dodges mine. note Perberts 10:11. I would suggest this argues AGAINST his being a Reagan
lassize fare Conservative. Note too he claims the mantle of Reagan to Hal, but dares give NO specifics. Nail him down if you can, he avoids engagement with me.
I don’t know where the “anti-homosexual” (I refuse to use the “terminological inexactitude”
“gay” which I regard as language rape. See my The Big Mick Blog on TH) part to the discussion originated, but I have long maintained PerB is PRO-HOMO which is why he is ANTI-Mythical “Right Wing”. What he hates is Christian Conservatives, or Conservative Christians. It’s why he hates Coulter. It’s why I think he is a “Gilt Bird Cabin” GOPper.

Mick

Hank 10:23
I know bro, and I'm on yours. What I was hoping was that, since RangerperBert was at least TALKING to you (he doesn't to me), you might be able to get him to actually make a cogent argument.

I'd be willing to give the guy some credit for BRAINS if he'd only lay out his Pillars.

I despise him for not being willing to.

mick

David-Old School Conservative
"In otherwords it wasn't the CRA that was "forcing" the banks to make subprime loans. It was the fact that these loans were very profitable as long as interest rates were low."

Well said! Investors looking for higher yields created the market for MBS filled with subprime loans.

Thanks for your well thought out post.



luvs2000

I agree, great article.

Repeat.. http://mises.org/story/3131

Mick
You're smarter than that. Liberals do not engage in debate; they smear, intimidate, play class/race/gender/pro-homo warfare games and argue on a false premise. Any time I rebut Robert or Hal or any other lib I know I'm not going to get an honest dialouge but that's not the point. The truth needs to be told, and if anybody reading our back and forth comes out of it with at least a desire to learn the truth, then I win. Nail him down? Like I said, it's like nailing jello to a wall.

Hal and Ranger
Please make yourselves familiar with the writings of Hayek, Mises or Reisman. While you are at also read some American history. Start with what came out of Jekyll Island. From that point on, the American Free Market system of laissez-faire economics was no longer. All of the major economic crisisses have occurred after the enactment of the Fed Reserve and a national income tax. We are in a quasi-socialist economy, if there is such a thing, and you are seeing the results. By the way, other than using rhetoric can you tell me how it is the fault of the de-regulated policy of Bush?

A must read!
Subject: WHERE DID OBAMA'S MONEY COME FROM?

Subject: New York Times Editorial
By MAUREEN DOWD
Published: June 29, 2008


OBAMA'S TROUBLING INTERNET FUND RAISING


The internet service providers (ISP) they were able to trace were from Saudi Arabia , Iran , and other Middle Eastern countries. One of the banks used for fund transfers was also located in Saudi Arabia .
Another concentrated group of donations was traced to a Chinese ISPwith a similar pattern of limited credit card charges.

It became clear that these
donations were very likely coming from sources other than American voters.

It was also decided that it was not the responsibility of the campaign to audit these millions of contributions as to the actual source (specific credit card number or bank transfer account numbers) to insure that none of these internet contributors exceeded the legal maximum donation on a cumulative basis of many small donations.

They also found the record keeping was not complete enough to do it anyway.

I guess we should have been somewhat suspicious when the numbers started to come out. We were told (no proof offered) that the Obama internet contributions were from $10.00 to $25.00 or so.
If the $200,000,000 is right, and the average contribution was $15.00, that would mean over 13 million individuals made contributions? That would also be 13 million contributions would need to be processed.

How did all that happen?
I believe the Obama campaign's internet fund raising needs a serious, in depth investigation and audit.


The fact that the NY Times allowed this to be printed is amazing in itself.

Rangers 10:30
Point number 3, spending, is NOT a failure of Capitalism, but of “Unbridled” Government, the same Unbridled Government RB is tasking to “rein in” Capitalism? HOW is he tasking them to FIX the problem by SPENDING more Money! ? BIGGER Government? HOW?

I also don’t see how a Free Market Decision to bundle and resell the loans is a threat to anyone but the speculators who bet wrong. What made them “securities”? If they were betting the Feds would “secure” it that’s a FAILURE OF GOVERNMENT again, not Capitalism.

Ranger PerB keeps sounding like a Socialist at heart.

Mick

Barney,Barney, Barney
Having Barney Frank be in charge of this solution is like having a bartender serving at an AA meeting. Barney's a disgrace to the oath of office for a Congressman and should be run out on a rail for his part in the Fannie & Freddie bailout. He's a sleaze.

Thank goodness
that this monster did not pass. The politicians on both sides of the aisle may actually be listening the people, which is "remarkable"!

Oh, and in the spirit of Halloween (coming sooner than we think)...well Pelosi needs to get on her broom and fly back home.....and take some of her buddies with her.

Can't be right
This article says that bill for the bailout didn't pass. But that can't be possible, since Johnnie boy McSame specifically went to "Warshington" to make it all come together. He even wanted to postpone the debates. He made a real big deal that his presence was important. So he failed to pull this thing off?? Well, combined with his selection of Caribou Barbie, I really have my doubts about his ability to lead and make good decisions. LOL.

Hank 10:43
As somebody said upon hearing a friend was getting married for the 5th time.
"The Triumph of Hope over Experience."

You are so very right, Hank, but the fact PerB was actually responding to you gave me Hope.

Your point is well made, it is the Truth and getting it out that counts.

Night all. I'm off to watch some football.

the big mick

Jeffrey
Just so you know, calling senator McCain "McSame" is the lamest assault on a political candidate, ever. Don't get me wrong, I encourage to keep saying it, but it is as lame as anything I've ever heard. You may have doubts about his ability to make good decisions, but you're an idiot, so who cares?

Mick
I'm watching football, too, and regrettably, rooting for the steelers. Be well my friend.

IT'S ABOUT TIME
Finally, the American voter won one. Rewarding the same idiots that got us in this mess was exactly the wrong thing to do. The Candidate, Senator and Congressman that took all the money from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac got exactly what they deserve, NOTHING.
Let's see what the republicans come up with. Taking anything from the taxpayer for socialistic programs is not only wrong, it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
I say let the people pay who caused the mess. That means voting the members of congress, who did nothing, out of office.

http://www.lloydpweaver.net

Jeffe 10:58
If you got a cogent case why Obamicommie's "I didn't vote for it before I didn't vote against it" know nothing, say nothing, do nothing approach is the stuff of Good Decisions and Leadership, trot it out, Jeffie.
Bamiecommie and JoBi are up to their rumps in money FROM the guys CAUSING this thing.

Don't like Eskimo Gal, huh? Well, Saracuda is the ONLY one in this Race who ISN'T a WORST CONGRESS IN HISTORY LOSER!
The only one with NON-EXPERIENCE in gaming the system that MADE the mess! is The Hockey Mom who cleaned up Nome (or wherever in the hell the capital of Alaska is).

I say turn Wolf Killer lose on the Wall Street and K Street and Penna Ave. Moose! Let her make Inside the Beltway Business as Usual Politicians an endangered species. I’d say extinct, but they breed fast and run faster.
mick
night again

CAN I CUT IN
I remember Reagan.He seemed to have three goals.
1.Cut taxes to spur the economy.
2.Rebuild the armed forces and engage the
soviet union,without war.
3.Cut domestic spending and balance the budget.
#1 worked.The economy expanded."The seven fat
years"
#2 worked.The Soviet Union disapeared.
I think Reagan saw the coming free trade between
nations as a good thing."The tide that lifts all
boats"As soon as the cold war ended.
#3He never got that one done.BUT i'd like to
think he tried.Anyway,Mr.Newt did it later on.

I believe Reagan thought if these three were done America would grow and Americans would
no longer need government.

Anyway,thats what i think.

Oh,Hi Robert/Ranger29

ROB





Hey, SJ Doc: Are you a Bourbon Democrat
I must confess, to my extreme embarrassment, that I have never heard the term before (that I remember).

Actually
I believe the main reason that the public at large rejects the idea of a compromise "rescue" plan is that most of us are pretty certain that there is serious conflict of interest and possibly criminal activity involved in the meltdown, and by God we want public investigation, exposure, indictment, arrest, conviction, and seizure of assets where applicable for as many of the protagonists as we can uncover.
That kind of plan would get the largest public support, I think, but what the hell do I know; I'm just a dumb worker bee/ant/termite taxpayer.
The aforementioned don't deserve the chance to resign, they need to be thrown out on their pimpled bottoms.( And do time if warranted)
That would make congress get serious and honest pretty damned quick.

oldprogramr-
There comes a time when there is no middle ground, no compromise, no bipartisan solution.
I'm sick and tired of being screwed, ain't you?
The people who got us here no longer are credible when they propose solutions, especially when they use scare language to defend their obfuscation of their own responsibility in helping create the "crisis" in the first place.
You want an outlet for your rage, take names and party affiliations and vote the pricks out. (Alternatively call for investigation and prosecution, as I said earlier).

RE: Airgun
You are so right, that is exactly what we want!

Let the fallout begin for all who have dirty hands, regardless of party and position!

We want accountability.

The only hope for the future of our economy and country are personal responsibility with reward for achievement and consequence for misdeeds... capitalism with law and order...conservatism!

America voted today
And said No to socialism.

Pelosi and her gang of thieves have shown that they will lie, cheat & say anything to reach their ultimate goal. Their goal is NOT to act according to the oath of office they took, but to advance a socialist take over of the financial structure of this nation. Paving the way for their chosen "One" to attain the office of POTUS.

Keep the pressure on by calling and mailing your reps & senators!

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_ cfm.cfm

https://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml


Recent Stimulus Package
Just wondering if all this news means the recent stimulus package hasn't worked. The government sent out a bunch of checks and preached that recipients should go out and spend spend spend! If you are "rich", of course, no check for you. You would only do something foolish with the money like save it, but thanks for paying for the program.


Mark to Market Solution
I would propose that financial institutions file 2 reports (10 Ks and annual). One would report assets at "cost" for capital requirements to the government. The other would report assets at Mark to Market to the public.

This arrangement could be done for 1 or 2 years until we work thru the crisis.

Mark to Market protects the investors right to know the worst case on the quality of the assets. Using "cost" would also free up a lot of capital for solvent banks and save tax payers a ton of bail out money.

It would allow the Gov to pay less for the bad mortgages and make fewer bail outs (fewer failed banks). Further, Paulson (or an Obama appointee) would not be the sole determination of the price of junk mortgages.

This compromise should be included in whatever package is developed.


Convinced

I am convinced that the only hope among all four candidates for the executive branch is Sarah Palin. McCain represents some basics of a good foundation, but Palin represents the future of true conservatism. She personifies our hope.

About the polls:

Don't know who they're calling, but there are way too many of us out here who care way too much about the future of our children and grandchildren and the future of the USA to give up when the going gets tough.

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going."

McCain and Palin in 2008!

A Vote For McCain Is A Vote For McCain
McCain has shown his true colors. The Obama/Bush/McCain campaign to socialize the banks had a set-back as TRUE CONSERVATIVES blocked the Socialist "Bailout From Hell".

Bob Barr is the only conservative left in this race. He called Paulson “an economic dictator, empowered to reengineer the economy as he sees fit.”

If you supported Romney, or Thompson, or even Huckabee. If you agreed with Ingram, Limbaugh and Hannity. If you hold true to conservative ideals, don't waste your vote in November.

McCain is gonna go right along with the Democrat-controlled congress and you KNOW IT. Why do you think his name is McCain Feingold and McCain Kennedy? Were you paying attention when he voted, TWICE, against Bush's tax cuts?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/11/opinion/main38170 77.shtml

So don't tell me he won't go along with the democrats. His support for this bill NATIONALIZING our banks is evidence enough, even without his long track record of siding with democrats.

If you call yourself a conservative and sell out so that we can have the "better of two evils" then you deserve the socialist state we'll get.

A McCain presidency will be worse than an Obama presidency because it will weaken and fracture the party from within, cutting off the conservatives and letting us die off.

A vote for Bob Barr is a vote for a return to conservative ideals, not in 2008, maybe not even in 2010, but by 2012. A single state that goes to Barr will ignite a firestorm in the conservative movement that will take America Back from the disaster of a



Vote McCain (or Obama) for the USSA
THAT'S RIGHT. They're nationalizing our banks and we're gonna roll over and let them.

VOTE BARR 08. HE WON'T WIN, BUT IT WON'T MATTER. IF OBAMA WINS, CONSERVATIVES HAVE A CHANCE TO RALLY AGAINST HIM AND WIN in '12.

IF MCCAIN WINS, THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT IS DEAD. A CABINET OF LIEBERMANS AND PRO-ABORTION "REPUBLICANS" WILL TAKE OVER.

VOTE FOR BARR 08 AND GIVE CONSERVATIVES A CHANCE IN '10 AND '12.

Talking heads in total panic
Amazing. The talking heads were in absolute meltdown all day and all night. They were shocked they said! Totally shocked the bill was voted down! Are these idiots nuts? McCain went to Washington warning everyone this thing looks like it will not pass and every democrat and talking head played McCain for the fool. Not a single democrat or talking head took McCain's warning at all. Why?

So where in the hell were those talking heads warning the public of any trouble with Freddie and Fannie years ago? Last year? Six months ago? Two week ago? Now we're supposed to listen to those exact same idiots yelling the sky is falling in?

McCain warned where this was going. Where in the hell was Obama? 94 of his democrats voted against this bill and Obama says call me if you need me? Obama is a dumb as a rock! This, Obama, is an emergency. Now. Today. We got your present vote and this time it cost everyone.

Will MSM even noticed Obama was absent? Fat chance.

Harley - On the ex-Journalism majors...
--
HarleyDavidson asks:

"Are these idiots nuts?"

...and:

"So where in the hell were those talking heads warning the public of any trouble with Freddie and Fannie years ago? Last year? Six months ago? Two week ago? Now we're supposed to listen to those exact same idiots yelling the sky is falling in?"


Harley, let me explain to you something about broadcast news journalists.

They're in the entertainment business.

They're selling commercial airtime to advertisers, and the fundamental basis upon which they're judged (their "way to promotion and pay") is predicated upon the number of eyeballs they grab.

So what you're seeing is a highly theatrical presentation designed *NOT* to truthfully, thoughtfully, and thoroughly report this bloody mess but to enhance these idiots' ratings.

They are *NOT* "nuts."

If you've been through college, particularly if you've lived on-campus, you almost certainly have some familiarity with Journalism majors, and you can search back in your memory to understand what these broadcasters were like in their larval stages.

Doltish, bigoted, lackwit, lazy, incontinent, almost perpetually drunken or stoned, uniformly "Liberal," unreasoning, unwashed, and lubricious, yes.

But always with a purpose.


A loathesome, hideous, christless purpose assuredly, but a purpose nevertheless.

--

Face it : America is Broke!
And yes, unlike all the politicians today, it is the right time to point fingers now!

We are still paying for our extravagant folly of electing Jimmy Carter. Two glaring examples being Iran and the current welfare housing debacle.
Every people do have the government they deserve. That includes us.

Our four greatest industries are either broke or well on the way :

A) Healthcare - Trial lawyers and frivolous lawsuits have made health insurance so expensive that hardly anyone, private or business can afford it anymore.

B) Housing - The overbuilding during our fraudulent welfare housing "boom" will take 20 years to normalize again, if ever.

C) Financial Services - New York, once the world's financial capital, has totally lost credibility, Financial services on a global level are being diluted to Hong Kong, Tokyo, London, Zurich and other centers.

D) Agriculture - It's still productive but under imense pressure of excessive regulations and high taxes. In spite of protectionist barriers and anti-free market subsidies in America, Brazil, with a truly free market agriculture, is quickly surpassing America both in production and global competitiveness. Soon we might be dependent on imported foods in addition to oil.

Conclusion - looks like we are headed in the same direction as "Progressive" California : Bankrupcy - financially, economically, morally and spiritually with a credit rating equall to that of Bolivia!

Article on the GOP House ideas.
Larry Kudlow has a great article at Washington Times Online today, entitled "Insurance Idea A Win-Win", and I hope some of you read it.

As one who previously suspected House GOPers were too rigid, too doctrinaire in their positions, this article afforded me another perspective.

Make no mistake. Kudlow thinks Congress must adopt a package.

But in his piece he enumerates some of the positions House Republicans demand before signing on to any package.

Read them. Go to the article. They are not extreme. One of them, abolition of the "ACORN Slush Fund", makes obvious sense.

Kudlow has desperately called for a rational package to stem what he fears may be a severe financial crisis, so he is not averse to a bill.

Anyway, I think House Republicans will get enough of their demands incorporated in a package, making its acceptance by the full Congress likely.

Kudlow also faults the administration for its bungling in how this package was presented to the American public.

It should have been cast as a rescue mission where American taxpayers would eventually see their money reimbursed to the Treasury by the government sale of these banknotes which are certain to appreciate as the housing market rebounds in the next few years, instead of allowing the perception(which has some basis in fact)that Wall Street schemers exploited the system for personal gain.

Some of them did, but we can't cut off our nose to spite our face.

We can't allow local banks to freeze up and not lend money, which would certainly place the nation in a steep recession.

DISASTER, COLLAPSE, DEPRESSION
What is the power glitterati’s one and only rationale for this bill? What approach do our “leaders” use to convince us, the American people, to follow their lead?

FEAR! FEAR! FEAR! FEAR! FEAR!

So the American people reject this bill by an overwhelming majority. We hate their proposed solution, which is no solution at all. We consider it to be rank socialism. We don’t want to reward the irresponsible.

So what is the power glitterati’s plan B in response to our complete rejection?

Do they want to get to the bottom of why we are in this crisis? Stop asking for the moon!

Do they want to remove the guilty from the decision making process? Don’t be silly!

Do they want to make any structural changes to their corrupt and failed system? What have you been smoking?

Our power glitterati want to put enough “lipstick on this pig” so that they can get 12 more votes. That is their pathetic response.

The power glitterati are not only stupid, but deaf as well.


Hey Washington! Want me to trust you?

Start by hanging Henry Paulson, Chris Dodd, and Barney Frank. Immediately thereafter, continue by hanging Jim Johnson, Franklin Raines, and Jamie Gorelick.

That might go a ways toward getting me to trust you.

Kudlow Has Zero Credibility.
jerabaub

Kudlow's last article, “A Paulson-Cantor Plan is a Win-Win,” insisted that we adopt the Modified Paulson Plan.

Kudlow is so stupid, that he actually admitted having written that article specifically at the request of the Treasury Department. (John Batchelor Radio Show, Sunday, 28 Sep, 2008)

Two weeks ago, in his article “Paulson’s Courageous Action,” Kudlow praised Paulson’s decision to not bail out anyone. So just two weeks ago, Kudlow was against a bailout. Now he is for a bailout. Of course he doesn’t call it a “bailout” anymore. Now he calls it is an economic assistance or recovery plan.

However, I will read the article you refer to, “Insurance Idea a Win-Win." It’s always entertaining to read Kudlow’s constantly flippery.

However, I want to know in advance who requested him to write this new article.

Congress
Remember, its the congress, stupid. The people did not turn away from Bush as much as it did from congress. They do not have the faith in congress to actually do what they claim they will do. They have fleeced the American public too many times and finally we are seeing they are not fiscally responsible, and show no signs of becomming so.

jerabaub
While the Kudlow article you refer to at the Washington Times is dated Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008, it is quite obvious that is was written no latter than Sunday, Sep 28, 2008.

“Sources also tell me other conditions are necessary to bring the House GOP along:

(1) The ACORN slush fund must be removed.”

On Sunday evening, Kudlow himself stated on the John Batchelor show that the slush fund had been removed!

This article is already outdated.

Bailout
I think the polotions (crooks) finially did the right thing.

They are the ones that caused this mess hand in hand with the bankers.

Please someone, print the list of the ones that voted for the bailout so we can get the ba--tards out.

I have never paid much attention to Ron Paul before, but, he sounds more down to earth than any of the others.

I am not endorcing Paul, but on the other hand I'm certainly not endorcing Noboma as he is just in it for himself.

As for McCain, I'm only supporting him because we may have a real leader in Sarah Palin in the future.

I'm only sorry that she has to be handed this fiscal mess by the dems and others.

Our only hope is to let the chips fall where they may. The Country will straighten out without the help of the currant people in charge such as reid, pelosie, barny and the rest of the good ol' boys.

And then Reality sets in
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ahwz_k5 JvuB8&refer=home

Did you people actually believe the bankers were NOT going to get their money?

And it was done, quietly, under the table.

Enjoy your "victory."

bailout
Thank God there were enough Congressmen and women to keep the the bailout money away from the federal reserve. If they get their hands on it you will never see it it again. Believe it or not but the federal reserve is a private bank controlled by the trilaterals who are hell bent on world socialism. The US is the last country keeping this from happening. So why not bankrupt the country and our middle class people. Don't give in politicians or they win.

bailout
Thank God there were enough Congressmen and women to keep the the bailout money away from the federal reserve. If they get their hands on it you will never see it again. Believe it or not but the federal reserve is a private bank controlled by the trilaterals who are hell bent on world socialism. The US is the last country keeping this from happening. So why not bankrupt the country and our middle class people. Don't give in politicians or they win.

Changed my mind
What is congress doing funding the loses of those holding bonds in these companies. I thought that this bailout was a good idea until I read the following:

“Consider a simplified balance sheet of a typical investment bank: Good assets $95 + Assets gone bad $5 > Total assets $100. Liabilities to customers/counterparties $80 + Debt to bondholders of company $17 + Shareholder equity $3 > Total liabilities & equity $100.

“Now, as the bad assets get written off, shareholder equity is also reduced. What has happened in recent months is that this equity has become insufficient, so that the company technically becomes insolvent assuming that the bondholders have to be paid off:

“Good assets $95 + Assets gone bad (written off) $0 > Total assets $95. Liabilities to customers/counterparties $80 + Debt to bondholders of company: $17 + Shareholder equity: (-$2) > Total liabilities & equity $95.

“These institutions are not failing because 95% of the assets have gone bad. They are failing because 5% of the assets have gone bad and they over-stretched their capital. At the heart of the problem is “ gross leverage” — the ratio of total assets taken on by the company to its shareholder equity. ...
“Why on earth would Congress put the US public behind these bondholders?

http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/markets.aspx?ID=BD4A8 53279

Brencis

American Public & Congress is Ignorant!!
I can't believe it. 100 to 1 phone calls to congressman against the bailout. People actually believe it's only to bail out the banks & Wall Street and the taxpayers shouldn't be accountable!! How stupid and ignorant! If the banks fail, if credit is so tight that no loans to other banks are happening, this is what we will all see and it will hurt 100 times worse than this bailout: Businesses will fail as lines of credit will dry up, we're already beginning to see that in our area! Massive amounts of people will be laid off of their jobs. You'll go to an ATM and chances are good you won't get cash, because they won't have any to give out. You won't be able to get car loans, home mortgages will be impossible to get, and the economy will grind to an absolute halt. You'll write out checks to pay bills, and then be informed that they (the bank) don't have the money to honor it at the moment (most people don't realize they can delay giving out money for up to 90 days). Lots of people will be out of work - think unemployment rates of 30% or higher as it was during the Great Depression. Do people realize that when they deposit their money in a bank - it isn't just sitting there? That it's being used to make loans to others so that interest is earned? If those loans aren't being paid back, and the bank is not able to get loans itself to give out the cash everyone is demanding - we have major crisis! Even the Great Depression took about 15 years to come out of - it really wasn't back up to the level it was pre-depression until the last year of WWII. If we can save the banks from total meltdown - it will help in the long term. There's an old saying, "A stitch in time saves nine". That's what we're facing this week! We can either choose to work together to take care of the problem early, or we will be handling the bigger mess & misery for years and years to come.

Don Juan IL
Normally I don't engage in exchanging arguments with the intellectually challenged like you.
FYI - I saw this mess coming several years ago when I sold our farm properties at top Dollar and moved our farming operations to Brazil.
We are sitting pretty, production is great, we are making a good profit, selling to over 20 countries and paying plenty taxes. Brazil will not be affected by America's demise. I don't know what you do, you sound like one of those ACORN parasites.. anyway, you sure deserve every bit of the crap coming your way.

FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR!
RUSH, RUSH, RUSH, RUSH, RUSH, RUSH!

There is no time to think!

This is how the scoundrels keep their power and continually get away with screwing the American people.

It is highly unfortunate that those who support this particular bailout package insist on intentionally misrepresenting the position of those who are against it.

We do want to do something to save the economy.

But, we don’t want to apply a Band-Aid. The patient requires radical surgery to remove multiple tumors. And, the patient must also be provided with intensive financial counseling and socio therapy.

Only by removing cancers such as the Community Reinvestment Act and Fannie Mae can we save the patient. Only by successfully treating the patient’s addictions to low interest rates, credit on demand, foreign capital, and lifestyles that they can’t afford can the patient return to true and sustained health.

The bill that you chastise us for being against does nothing to cure the patient.

The bill would only cause the tumors to grow and feed the addictions.

Those of you that are angry with us, please stop writing that we are ignorant.

a GREAT video about the crisis


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5tZc8oH--o

This youtube takes a few minutes to watch, but it shows really WHY we are in this financial crisis, which was substantially caused by the left/'Crats... I urge you to WATCH IT, PASS IT ALONG, and POST IT ANYWHERE where cognitive people might be interested in understanding the mess.

The video has links and reference sources to build its case. Speaking as a banker of 25 years who was asked to deal for a time with problem assets, I can attest that the banks were effectively compelled to make marginal to poor mortgage loans under the guise of government backing. We all knew that CRA type lending was a ticking time bomb.

The video shows how a flawed social engineering theory resulted in a massive housing bubble, which inexorably had to burst eventually, exposing the fatally flawed lending mistakes engendered by government leftists, first beginning under Jimma' Carter, but made far worse under Slick Willie Clinton.

It was not first and foremost (or even primarily) the marketplace which failed here... it was, once again, social engineering theory and government fiat... but "greed and graft in the marketplace" will wear the collar. This is not, however, to exonerate the thieves packaging mortgages (MBS's) on Wall Street. They are the same morally-bereft, vulture types who were there for the LBO and "dot.com" ripoffs... this time it is MBS's and derivatives.


I will say this-- IF the government bailout does not overprice the "assets," we COULD actually come out whole. We did on the Chrysler bailout, and even when we bailed out Mexico, which paid us back early and at a premium-- probably with some of the oil or drug $ we send them! We even came out surprisingly well on the massive S&L bailout following Reagan's ill-fated and ill-advised deregulation of thrifts (S&L's).

agree in principle here

re:
"To over-state the metaphor: If your boat is taking on water, and you are opposed, in ideological grounds, to bailing it out, it will sink and you will drown."

The govt. CAUSED this mess, and the mess is REAL. We CAN come out whole with an INTELLIGENT bailout. We cannot long endure, however, with the markets in a lurch. When banks like 4th largest Wachovia are cratering due to bad home mortgages alone, it speaks volumes.

The good news? ALL of these mortgages have SOME value, and many need not result in ANY loss, provided that the properties are not liquidated in a panic mode. Further, we need to correct the government's attempt at social engineering-- NO MORE mortgages to those who do not even pay rent on time!

cavalier973 - On Bourbon Democrats
--

cavalier973 asks:

"SJ Doc: Are you a Bourbon Democrat?"


I would be, if they hadn't been blotted out by the Populist / Progressive cancer that began to manifest with the nomination of that "Cross of Gold" religious sphincter, William Jennings Bryan, in 1896.

If you wiki the term you'll find that:

"The Panic of 1893 damaged the Bourbons because Cleveland was President at the time and was blamed for the consequent economic losses."


Of course, the Silver Panic of 1893 was actually caused by a totally *REPUBLICAN-DOMINATED CONGRESS* (the 51st, also known as "the Billion-Dollar Congress" for the previously-unheard-of levels of pork and plunder it shovelled to GOP constituencies) whose enactments had been rubber-stamped by the nebbish Benjamin Harrison (R), who had stolen the election of 1888 from Grover Cleveland.


Study the history of the Republican Party, and you'll find that the last genuinely good idea these thieving sonsofbitches ever came up with was the Civil Rights Act of 1866.

It's been all downhill since then.

The problem is that after 1904, what we used to call the Democratic Party went even deeper into the cesspool, and what we have now is something best described as the bipartisan "Boot-On-Your-Neck Party."

The Republicans are at least true to their poisoned roots (see "Young Mr. Lincoln" for that short stump speech); the other wing of the BOYN conspiracy is now best characterized as the National Socialist Party.

Might as well make it explicit, right?


(( H.L. Mencken, by the way, was a Bourbon Democrat. ))





=====
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."

-- H.L. Mencken
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