Tuesday, April 17, 2007
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Shooter ID'd as Korean National, Va. Tech Student, Cho Seung-Hui
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Posted by:
Mary Katharine Ham at
9:37 AM
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He left a "disturbing note" behind: The student killed two people in a dorm room, returned to his dorm room where he re-armed and left a"disturbing note" before entering a classroom building on the other side of campus to continue his rampage, sources said. Cho's identitiy has been confirmed with a positive fingerprint match on the guns used in the rampage and with immigration materials. It is believed that he was the shooter in both incidents yesterday. Sources say Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol, sources said. Witnesses had also told authorities that the shooter was carrying a backpack. Sections of chain similar to those used to lock the main doors at Norris Hall, the site of the second shooting that left 31 dead, were found inside a VirginiaTech dormitory, sources confirmed to ABC News. He used a Glock 9 mm and a .22, according to reports.
Va. Tech administrators and local law enforcement is still holding up that story about there possibly being another shooter, which I never thought made a whole lot of sense, but nonetheless:
President Charles Steger told "Good Morning America's" Diane Sawyer that police were still investigating the possibility of a second shooter, and said authorities had already interviewed one "person of interest." "There may be others," said Steger, who will join the Virginia Tech chief of police at a press conference Tuesday morning. "We just don't know." Steger also said that authorities hoped to have ballistics evidence to release that would confirm a connection between the two shootings. Recriminations are coming hard and strong against the university president and the chief of police, as we knew they would.
Update: In the midst of tragedy, there are always heroes. Meet Prof. Liviu Libresc, a 75-year-old Israeli teacher who was killed while holding the classroom door shut so his students could escape through the windows. Amazing. More updates at Hot Air, where Allah's speculating about how the shooter managed to be so deadly if he was spraying bullets randomly. There have been reports that he lined people up and shot them execution-style, but it seems likely his captors would have turned on him once they saw what was in store for them. The death toll is so high, it seems he would have had to be awfully accurate with a 9 mm, and particularly the .22, to reak so much havoc.
The eye-witness accounts and reconstruction of this crime will be absolutely chilling. It's just so unspeakably sad. The convocation is at 2 p.m. today, and President Bush and Gov. Tim Kaine will be attending. Update: Playing dead:
A gunman who killed at least 30 people in one of two shootings on the campus of Virginia Tech was dressed "almost like a Boy Scout," saida student who survived by pretending to lie dead on a classroom floor. "He just stepped within five feet of the door and just started firing,"said Erin Sheehan, who was in one of the Norris Hall classrooms wherethe second shooting incident took place. Sheehan described the gunman -- who later shot and killed himself, according to police -- asa young man wearing a short-sleeved tan shirt and black ammunition vest. "He seemed very thorough about it -- getting almost everyone down -- I pretended to be dead," she said. (Watch student describe surviving by playing dead ) "He was very silent," said Sheehan, one of only four students in her 25-student German class who were not shot. The gunman left but returned in about 30 seconds. "I guess he heard us still talking," said Sheehan. "We forced ourselves against the door so he couldn't come in again, because the door would not lock." The man tried three more times to force his way in and then began firing through the door, she said.
Update: One doctor at the Blacksburg hospital said he didn't see a victim come in who hadn't been shot at least three times. Update: Details on the note Cho left behind, and possible warning signs: Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according toan investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.
A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm roomthat railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.
Cho was an English major whose creative writing was so disturbing thathe was referred to the school's counseling service, the Associated Press reported.
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as"troubled."
"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it'screative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."
Update: Pictures and names of victims are starting to come out. This is partially speculative, but I've read that Emily Hilscher, an 18-year-old from Woodville, Va., was the first victim, and perhaps involved with the shooter. She and Ryan Clark, her neighbor in her dorm, who reports say may have come to her assistance, were shot in the early-morning incident. I moved the victim remembrances to a new post, here, and I'm continually updating. Update: Even Cho's roommate didn't know him well: Mr. Aust spoke just outside his room, on the wall outside the doorwas Mr. Aust’s name was with that of his roommate, spelled “Sueng-ho,”on an orange cutout of a fish provided to all the students by theresident advisor when they moved in last August. “He was alwaysreally, really quiet and kind of weird, keeping to himself all thetime,” he said. “Just of anti-social, didn’t talk to anybody. I triedto make conversation with him in August or so and he would just giveone word answers and not try and carry on the conversation.” He said it was a creepy quietness. “Iwould notice a lot of times, I would come in the room and he would kindof be sitting at his desk, just staring at nothing,” he said.
He sounds anti-social in the extreme, not just a "loner," as they're often described. Fox is reporting that, on the first day of an English lit class, he refused to introduce himself, and gave his name on a sign-in sheet as just a question mark. Update: Allah finds word that the killer warned "im going to kill people at vtech today," on an online forum.
Dan Riehl is tracking down rumors about the possible relationship between Cho and Emily Hilscher. Some have said they were involved. Some have said he may have been stalking her. At least one of her friends said on Fox News she was not aware that Emily knew the killer at all.
Emily had broken upwith Cho-Seung-hui about two weeks prior to yesterday, what had startedas a promising relationship had turned into a controlling, almostvolatile situation. Cho Seung-hui was very dependent upon Emily. Helooked to her as his ’saving grace’ and felt that every spare momentthe two had, should be spent together. At first, Emily was charmed byhis attentiveness, but began to slowly feel isolated, controlled,stagnant. Cho Seung-hui didn’t take the break-up well, for the past twoweeks he had been trying to convince Emily they belonged together. Who knows? For what it's worth, Emily's MySpace page, the last login for which is December '06, makes reference to what sounds like a promising new relationship: i am the pixie. my friends are what keep me smiling. i live inbumfuck...but i make the best of it. i unfortunatly am alone... allalone.. i live love and get booted but eventually that will change.have a wonderful guy who is hopefully going to change all of that...but dont know what is going to happen. But this is from the description on her memorial Facebook group, which appears to have been started by a very close, long-time friend of hers: EMILY HILSCHER IS NOT RELATED TO THE SHOOTER IN ANY WAY REGARDING A SERIOUS RELATIONSHIP. SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH KARL THORNHILL. Here's a screencap from the Facebook group:  it feels unlikely that the killer had a romantic relationship with Hilscher. In all of her profiles and pictures, she seems very social, outgoing, well-liked. How would she become involved with an anti-social loner who would barely talk to other people on campus? Update: The Hilscher/Cho connection is officially debunked by Hilscher's best friend and roommate. The rumors were apparently sparked by the fact that Hilscher's boyfriend was an avid gun-user, which made him a "person of interest" in her shooting. That would explain the "domestic dispute" angle, and the weird messages during the press conference yesterday that there may have been two separate shooters.
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This is very sad and disturbing..I'm glad they atleast have been able to identify the shooter, but if there is another shooter then I hope they'll be able to get to that person soon.. |
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The ballistic evidence should have been in 11am yesterday. It is certainly nothing that would have taken overnight. As for Seung's terrible efficacy, he caught a group of students at the exit doors that he had chained closed. There was no lineup. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. |
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that there probably weren't two shooters. I think what we saw was the police just completely freaking out after the second shootings, and trying to think of a way that they didn't royally screw up by not shutting down the campus the first time.
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Well now that we know that the Korean national had weapons, we should prepare for the democrats to fire up their anti-gun ownership campaign. Already the world is condeming us for our "gun culture", and say that incidents such as this never happen in their country because of restictions to gun ownership. What they don't realize is without private gun ownership, you are at the mercy of "authority" who tell you what to do or not do, pushing ultimately to declining civil rights and liberties. Bringing us to the point many founding fathers were in living in Britain prior to the revolution.
Why do we insist on reliving the realities of history, when instead we should be learning from them? Taking away 2nd amendment rights today, 5th amendment tomorrow, 1st amendment a year from now. It's a slippery slope and liberals who hate liberty and freedom will use this as their next weapon to destroy America. |
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The University Campus was a Micro Society with absolute gun control. The concept of "Nobody can have a gun and the government will protect you" failed miserably. When that same concept is applied to a Larger Society(City,State,Nation)it becomes more complex and less controlable. 32 law biding citizens had no weapon, but one criminal had found a way to poccess a weapon. Limiting weapon posession to the responsible law biding citizen only results in victimhood, and empowers the criminal element. Bernard Getz proved this concept years ago when the thugs on the NYNY subway system mistaked him for an unarmed victim citizen. Imagine 32 students with handguns in their backpacks, the proper training, and the desire to save themselves instead of waiting on the Government to protect them.........A different ending to this tragedy I'm sure! |
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Let me just comment that the Government has already started taking away our rights, e.g., the Patriot Act. The strange thing is, this is supported most vociferously by those who feel they need guns to protect our rights.
And remember, when guns are easy to get, all the nuts get guns ... |
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Right from the start, before they knew anything, it was being reported that it was about a jealous lover gone berserk. They didn't know the shooter, the "girlfriend" or the guard who supposedly interceded in a quarrel of unknown subject. The "girlfriend" and guard were the first victims. Why did the authorities say it was a lover's spat so early? What does the "disturbing note" say? Who is the "person of interest" that they CAN'T FIND? What is that person's significance? I also don't buy that it was like "shooting fish in a barrel". I've shot enought Glocks and other handguns to know that being this deadly requires a steady hand, cool nerves and lots of practice. He had just bought the gun(s) recently. I can think of so many alternative explanations for what happened given the information available that EVEN I would think I'm a nut for offering them now. Let's wait and see. Too much blame game and guessing. For now, I want to know what the note said, who the "person of interest" is and what his/her involvement was. I watched the press conference live yesterday and I was not left with the impression that the authorities mishandled this. Solving the crime is the first priority, not keeping the public informed at the risk of compromising the police work. |
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Guns are not allowed on Va Tech campus. Therefore, only the criminal had a gun!
Last year, VA Tech's spokesman praised defeat of a bill which would have allowed CCW holders to carry on campus. He said that now parents, faculty, and students will feel safe.
Obviously, feeling safe trumps actually being safe.
REAL SMART!!
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for printing the pictures of the victims. The senseless destruction of these young people on the cusp of adulthood is heartbreaking. |
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As the parent of a student at VT, I feel very much the pain of the parents and loved ones of those murdered. I spent a few very uncomfortable hours yesterday before my son was able to call and let me know he was OK. I can only imagine the feelings of those who waited in vain for the reassuring call. The pictures are heartbreaking. |
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When you pass laws restricting guns, the only people who obey the laws are law-abiding citizens. The criminals don't care. That is why they are criminals. The law books are alreadt overflowing with gun laws that are not being enforced. This was not a case of guns being easy to get. It never is. Guns will always be easy to get for criminals and nuts who want them. There is no point in passing even more laws that cannot be enforced. Every single society that has banned guns has triggered an explosion of violent crime. Yes, I said explosion. It is never a statistical blip but an trajectory that can be described as meteoric. When guns were legal in merry old England, the bobbies didn't need to carry guns. Now that guns are banned, they are armed to the teeth. The logic of gun control requires an irrational detachment from common sense. If it doesn't work on the personal level, it doesn't work on the bigger levels either. |
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that the guns were purchased within the last month and the serial numbers were filed off. If he bought them in that condition, the gun dealer was probably trafficking in stolen guns. Why would the killer bother to file them off? If he did, what does that mean? Looks like a failure to enforce current laws to me which would probably not have prevented the crime either. |
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"Every single society that has banned guns has triggered an explosion of violent crime. Yes, I said explosion. It is never a statistical blip but an trajectory that can be described as meteoric."
That is, in fact, pretty much the opposite of true. After the handgun ban in England, violent crime FELL five percent, a huge number for a nation that size. http://www.guninformation.org/.
Fact is, it does work on the bigger levels. Oh, there's that word you don't understand "fact." Sorry. |
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Your facts are categorically wrong. I will look at the site you listed later when I have time but every single time a society has banned guns from the hands of law-abiding citizens, violent crime has exploded, including in England. Canada banned guns entirely and yet violent crime using guns is skyrocketing. Scotland as a country has the same level of violence as Washington D.C. It is no accident that those areas in America that the most violent cities in America also have the strictest gun control laws. Every city that has liberalized concealed-carry laws has witnessed a plummeting of violent crime. It only stands to reason that when law-abiding, responsible citizens are allowed to carry guns, the only people who should be worried are criminals. Turns out they do. |
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Alright. I just checked the website. YOU'VE GOTTA BE KIDDING!??!? There isn't even an author listed for the site. It's just an unattributed, single-page website making unattributed statements. I can post anything I want too but that doesn't make it fact. So much for your fact-gathering skills. I won't even bother citing my sources. You just are not a serious person. |
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With the exception of certain parties (such as foreign police here for training, shooting competitors, and allied military training here in the states, for example) let it be illegal for any person not a US citizen to own or possess a firearm in the US. If a person wishes to enjoy the shooting sports or hunting here, they have to be in the company of a US citizen who can legally possess/own a firearm (such as an instructor or licensed field guide). If a Non-citizen is found with a weapon or attempts to obtain one, they are instantly deported without hearing. If they are found in possession of one during any illegal act, such as B&E, or being here illegally, they get 5-10 years in prison and then deported. If they kill someone with a firearm, they are eligible for the death penalty. Make it a manditory enforcement and sentencing law. There, you have your new law, it addresses the issue, it does not interfere with any US citizen's rights. |
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Don't make me laugh. Click on the .PDF link, I know that's asking a lot. Also, I must have missed where you cited any statistic claiming crime has "exploded" everywhere gun control laws have been enacted. Calm down, take your pills, and rethink what you wrote ... Apology accepted. |
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Here's a link for you.
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=570
Restrictive firearm legislation has failed to reduce gun violence in Australia, Canada, or Great Britain. The policy of confiscating guns has been an expensive failure, according to a new paper The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales, released today by The Fraser Institute.
The Fraser Institute is an independent research and educational organization based in Canada. Its mission is to measure, study, and communicate the impact of competitive markets and government intervention on the welfare of individuals.
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"And I know that many of the things you said are wrong. I lived in London; the bobbies do not carry handguns. And violent crime is much, much lower in England than here."
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html
From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people. |
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The literature from several studies and from different disciplines tend to support a few general tendencies of suicidal murderers. I have data from a few thousand Southern High School students. After running a series of veracity checks and removing all inconsistent responders and all of the non delinquents, I ran a cluster analysis with suicidal tendencies and violent tendencies as the segmentation bases. I confirmed the results with a spilt halves validation.
I found 4 groups, one that was quite large and not suicidal or violent, one that was suicidal only, one that was violent only and a small group that was both. I then profiled the groups with a very comprehensive set of problem behavior questions,psychological and behavioral items and demos etc.
One thing that stands out, in our study and also in just about every other study, is that the suicidal/violent group tend to have prolonged histories (many events over a long period of time) of both sexual and physical abuse (usually in earlier childhood).
In my opinion that causes both feelings of helplessness, rage and injustice. It also creates a feeling that the system is hopelessly unfair. No matter what they do they cannot win or get justice. The individual may feel guilt but blames externals such as the system or others for the injustice. They also cannot accept responsibility for thier failures (social and otherwise)and thier inability to cope. That would be a severe threat to thier identity. In other words, they have external attributions. I think a type of peverse equity theory then sets in.
Since they cannot win (often socially), one other option is to decrease effort. The ultimate decrease in effort is suicide. They may tend to have a strong need to succeed and so they have a long history of frustrations. Since they cannot drop out without an identity crisis and they cannot raise thier rewards they try to lower the level of percieved unfairness by lowering the rewards the system has unfairly (perceived) given others.
They feel that thier life is worthless and in order for things to be fair to them, others should also lose. Violence against an unfair system gives meaning and a sense of control to them. The more people they kill, the more meaning (the creation of justice in thier minds) and significance they create in thier own minds for thier own identity/life/death.
In thier minds the only way they can win is to make as many other people lose as possible.
They are not sociopaths at least by the classic definition. They do have values and are maximizing the values that they value most (power, control, meaning in life, social justice, being respected/feared, self-respect).
This is a glimpse at the dark perverted flip side of self-esteem.
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This killer acted out a variation of a script that he obsessed over for a long time. He cast himself in the lead role and then acted it out.
If he had not gone off now at VT he would have gone off later in another setting.
Scripts are automatic behaviors. From the descriptions of his behavior during the shooting he seems to be in some type of flow (also evident in the UT and Amish incidents). |
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I know this probably won't be a popular statement, but before you crucify this man, lets concider one fact. In a normal double murder, which that is what this was considered at first, the odds of a perpetrator hanging around campus was not that high. Also, the scene as they described it, looked like a domestic dispute. This would further point to the person taking flight and getting as far awayas possible. As the man once said, Hind sight is ALWAYS 20 20.
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