Tuesday, December 11, 2007
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Lawrence O'Donnell, Unplugged
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Posted by:
Hugh Hewitt at
9:09 AM
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Larry O'Donnell went on a tirade about Mitt Romney, Mormons and Joseph Smith on this past weekend's McLaughlin Group. So I had him on yesterday to discuss his Mormon problem. The transcript is here. Concluding exchange:
HH: Would you say the same things about Mohammed as you just said about Joseph Smith?
LO’D: Oh, well, I’m afraid of what the…that’s where I’m really afraid. I would like to criticize Islam much more than I do publicly, but I’m afraid for my life if I do.
HH: Well, that’s candid.
LO’D: Mormons are the nicest people in the world. They’re not going to ever…
HH: So you can be bigoted towards Mormons, because they’ll just send you a strudel.
LO’D: They’ll never take a shot at me. Those other people, I’m not going to say a word about them.
HH: They’ll send you a strudel. The Mormons will bake you a cake and be nice to you.
LO’D: I agree.
HH: Lawrence O’Donnell, I appreciate your candor.
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I was born and raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am not active right now, but I am quite familiar with the doctrine. That being said, O'Donnell made more incorrect statements than correct ones about LDS church doctrine. Coupled with his lack of composure, this is a tremendous tax on trust against both O'Donnell and MSNBC.
I believe it is our God-Given right to express our feelings and beliefs as O'Donnell did. I also believe that we are morally obligated to avoid "smearing". Especially when it is based on ignorance or intentional lies.
Ultimately, I think this will fall to MSNBC's bottom line. If they want "reality tv" politics, then they will keep him . But if they want people to trust their brand, his contract will be reviewed. |
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The letter from TJ to a minister was in response to the minister being concerned that the state would try to impose their will upon or affect churches in their worship. Many believe that the letter was to protect the state from churches but the context reveals it differently |
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The Mormon Church is run as a corporation and does not have tax exempt status. SO what LOD said about the change in policy regarding blaks and the priesthood changing so that the church could maintain its tax exempt status is wrong. This policy was a problem for most Mormons for a couple of decades. They fixed it water under the bridge. By the way when the changed a lot of people left the church. Good riddance to bad garbage. |
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"My guess is that neither of you are Mormon. You can say what you want, that I'm thin skinned, or that I'm an imposter. At the end of the day the Republican party is being held hostage by Evangelicals who will destroy the party."
That's BS. Huckabee is a wolf in sheeps clothing for conservatives. He does not even represent the the evangelicals you so worry about.
I think we should use the nickname The Huckster.
He is no different than Clinton was. The nedia protected Clinton during his first election adn th media will protect The Huckster until he gets the nomination. |
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Davod: No, the issue is religious bigotry, O'Donnell merely being the latest to engage in it.
paddy: "In the Enlightened Age and in this Land of equal Liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States." (George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793. Quoted in Richard B. Morris, Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, Harper & Row, 1973, p. 269.)
One Hot Minute, thanks for illustrating why I won't dialogue with you, as your only objective is to "catch" me in some kind of "lie", so-called. That's not dialogue, my good fellow, it's cross-examination. I do it for a living, and I could just as easily do it to you, and a hundred times more effectively, as you lie virtually every time you post (when not imitating Hugh, poorly). But that's not why I come here. |
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Do not fear the enemy, for they can take only
> your life. Fear the media far more, for they will destroy your honour.
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It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics.
George Washington
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NeoConScum,
Yeah, Huckabee might be able to get elected Pastor in Chief, but not Commander in Chief.
Fortunately, he's not gonna get the GOP nomination.
I didn't necessarily have an argument with Laborlawyer.
He made a specific accusation about James Dobson, and I merely asked him to tell us what he meant by it.
Clarityseeker, Blu, and I have caught Laborlawyer being elastic with the truth and telling some pretty big whoppers in the past.
Therefore, it doesn't surprise me when Laborlawyer does a song-and-dance before doing a quick "exit, stage left" when asked a direct question.
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That's my 2-cents and I'm a(lapsed)protestant.
Looking desperately for Flys**t in the bottom of the sugar bowl ain't what I'm remotely interested in. Huckster is, I'm seeing, a country-boy grifter. We had one of those in the Oval Office a few years ago. He isn't going to win the Republican nomination and he could not beat the despicable & truly frightening Lady McClinton or the affable & lightweight Obama.
I don't hang with the same folks a LaborLawyer here, but I've no objection or any major disagreement with his jist on this thread. The same for my friend, OHM. I think you guys are closer to each other's views on this particular issue than you think.
Geeez, the Nefarious Neo has become the U.N. here!
I must need a rest and some meds. |
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laborlawyer:
The issue is O'Donell. |
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HTF does this guy get a pass for what he said. He is a journalist/commentator. At the very least he should be ostricised by reasonable members of the journalistic (Is this a word?) community. |
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"This really was a Christian nation, and, as far as its founders were concerned, to try separating Christianity from government is virtually impossible and would result in unthinkable damage to the nation and its people. Much of the damage we see around us must be attributed to this separation."
I post this for those who may actually be reconsidering the danger to our constitutional form of government caused by a certain strain of modern conservatism. The danger has been exposed for all to see in this disgraceful theological inquisition of Mitt Romney. Is this really the America you want? One where Chrisianity and government are "inseperable"? |
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My good man, I don't "need" to do anything except die and pay taxes, much less run around chasing your wild geese. Now go patronize someone else. Maybe PL or Briggsy or Joe or Jayhub or any of the others on this site who are independent thinkers still see any point to chasing your wild geese. I don't. Buh-bye. |
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Laborlawyer,
My good man, when you make an accusation about specific people, you need to back it up by citing specific examples regarding those specific people.
I didn't ask you what the late Barry Goldwater thinks generally about the issue, rather, I asked you what you believe the Christian Coalition, James Dobson, et al, are threatening to do to the delicate balance between religious freedom and religious tolerance.
Can you support your assertion ?
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Thomas Jefferson would disagree with you:
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." (Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 369
It is not I who is attempting to rewrite history.
As for OneHotMinute, since I know from many months of exchanges with you that you have no respect whatever for my opinions, I offer the words of Barry Goldwater:
"Well, I've spent quite a number of years carrying the flag of the 'Old Conservatism.' And I can say with conviction that the religious issues of these groups have little or nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics. The uncompromising position of these groups is a divisive element that could tear apart the very spirit of our representative system, if they gain sufficient strength. Being a conservative in America traditionally has meant that one holds a deep, abiding respect for the Constitution. We conservatives believe sincerely in the integrity of the Constitution. We treasure the freedoms that document protects. . . "By maintaining the separation of church and state,the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars . . . Can any of us refute the wisdom of Madison and the other framers? Can anyone look at the carnage in Iran, the bloodshed in Northem Ireland, or the bombs bursting in Lebanon and yet question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of state?"
Think about it. |
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Laborlawyer wrote;
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"The thoughtful conservative should take heed at what groups such as the Christian Coalition, and men such as James Dobson, threaten to do to the delicate balance between religious freedom and religious tolerance that has served our nation so well."
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Laborlawyer, in your estimation, what are they threatening to do to the delicate balance between religious freedom and religious tolerance ?
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The founders did not erect a wall of seperation between church and state. The first acts of Congress were to have Bibles published and distributed, and send out missionaries. There were church services held in the Congressional Hall every Sunday and Thomas Jefferson and others attended.
Thankfully there are people, such as David Barton, who have bought those letters, documents and the Bibles of founders and preserved them. You can twist but cannot rewrite the history record. |
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All of this arguing about what a particular religion believes, or doesn't, illustrates how profoundly right our founding fathers were to erect a wall of separation between church and state. The thoughtful conservative should take heed at what groups such as the Christian Coalition, and men such as James Dobson, threaten to do to the delicate balance between religious freedom and religious tolerance that has served our nation so well.
I don't know very much about Mormonism. I know a fair number of Mormons and find them to be decent folks. When, or whether, Mormons received a revelation on race is not for a Jew such as myself to say; it is important to me oly that American law forbidding discrimination be followed. I support Harry Reid because I agree with his politics and oppose Mitt Romney because I disasgre with his (well, at least the current version; the 1994 version looked pretty good to me). That they are both Mormons I care not one whit.
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Wrong. Oh, well.
I'd strongly advise listening to the wise council of 'LDS and proud...' I, too voted for 'W' twice.
I've been a registered Republican since only 2006, when we moved to Florida from L.A. But, I have voted Republican since 1980 when I was "mugged by reality" and became an Evil Nefarious Neocon Cabal Member. I'm not a Mormon, but the ones I've known over the years have been Stand Up people. I'm not an Evangelical, but friends here at HH who support Mitt or Rudy are.
Huckster isn't going to be the nominee. Grow stronger belly muscles if you want to play here. Now, pick up your toys and c'mon and jump in our sand box. Sheeesshh, so sensitive.
A lapsed Protestant(me), some Agnostics, Catholics, Evangelicals, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, 7th Dayers, C-Scientists, some Atheists, Jews, and some danged ol'Zen Buddhists can pull this Romney victory off.
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Did HH leave the Presbyterian Church when his pastor moved to Texas? I'd like to know which position HH wants if Romney is elected. |
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Liebuster, I believe you are real because I've heard this sentiment from other Mormons. I've always been suspious of the Evangelicals and I guess we all knew they would throw us over if they could. But Hugh is one of the good guys. And a Romney Presidency is the only real option for the country that supports our values. And the fate of our children's country rides on getting along with these nuts no matter how personally insulting they are. They will eventually be judged with the same judgement with which they judge. We are always reminded we should look carefully at the issues and people we vote for. I think voting exclusively along party lines sort of defeats that.
Also, we should be about 3% give or take of the Republican party. (My son graduated from BYU this year and Cheney spoke at graduation, there were about 25 protesters so there are a few Democrats) They can do alot without us. But we should make some impact. |
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My guess is that neither of you are Mormon. You can say what you want, that I'm thin skinned, or that I'm an imposter. At the end of the day the Republican party is being held hostage by Evangelicals who will destroy the party. I'm a strong Romney supporter for all the right reasons and not because he worships with me. I voted for Bush...twice. At the end of the day, Republicans have had no stronger ally than conservative Mormons. If Huckabee ends up winning the nomination, than you pharisees will end up with exactly what you deserve as Huckabee goes down in a ball of flames in the general election. Hey...but at least Christ will forgive you. |
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If I hadn't been stuck in a traffic jam under C-470 I'd probably been in the ditch in laughing convulsions.
The Maestro methodically walked Mr. O'D down the road of inconsistencies between Mr. O'D's own Catholic beliefs and those of the church before dropping the hammer.
The fact that Mr. O'D was totally oblivious to the Hewitt train coming toward him suggests that needn't worry about Islam extremists. |
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LO’D: Are you a Catholic, Hugh?
HH: Yes, I am.
Huh? |
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Lawrence O'Donnell is such a hypocrite. He criticizes the Mormon Church for having been racist. He criticizes Joseph Smith for having been a criminal. He disses the Church for its past practice of polygamy.
Well guess what? Jesus was racist--he purposefully excluded the gentiles during his ministry--and he was a criminal, convicted and executed on charges of sedition and blasphemy. And several of the Old Testament patriarchs were polygamists.
So why doesn't he go after Christianity in general? Because he is a hypocrite and just wants to rail against Mormons.
And consider this: he said he'd vote for Romney in a heartbeat if he agreed with his policies, implying that he will not vote for Romney. That in itself is not problematic, but does he bring up issues with Romney's policies? No, he instead just goes after Romney' religion. It's hard to believe that his comment was sincere, about voting for Romney if he agreed with his policies.
Which makes him a bigot as well as a hypocrite. |
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Don't recognize your name, so I would imagine you are one of those Imposters that call C-span acting like disgruntled Republicans who are leaving the Party. We don't fall for those ploys.....if you can't stand grass roots politics, by all means go join the top down party of the USA! |
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here at HH. Only volunteers. Stick or don't stick. Most of us Romney supporters are made with tougher belly muscles than you, apparently. |
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Goodbye, cruel party, your tent is too small. As a lifetime Mormon Republican, voting fairly straight ticket, I now see you for what you are. I looked across the aisle and saw a Mormon governor of Democratic Massachusetts and a Democratic party majority leader. I see the surging rise of blue dog Democrats, a group I can identify with. On the other hand I see the vitriol spewed on blogs and TV from evangelicals and fellow Republicans against us. John McCain put it succinctly in 2000 when he labeled many of you "agents of intolerance". It wasn't always this way. We were fiscally conservative, steadfast in faith and respectful of religious belief. We were united in purpose, all sons and daughters of God. No longer fiscally conservative, no longer respectful of religious belief…I don't recognize you anymore. I'm on the road to Damascus and I know I can find shelter somewhere else. I may be one pixel on this political map of Utah red but if Republicans keep it up, don't be surprised if it turns BYU blue.
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Paul since you believe you own the term "orthodox" or as stated better by someone above, you have hijacked the term, can you please enlighten me and anyone for that matter...
how is it you and your "orthodoxed" christians embraced and defend a Creed written by a Pagan in 400ad and how that it is a major element to your "orthodoxy" when not even approaching a biblical interpretation? |
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Cyndu -- Agree with your general argument, but this isn't quite accurate:
"Mormons never owned slaves - Utah was always a free state. Can the critics of Mormonism that live in the south say that of their ancestors?"
There were, in fact, a number of Mormon slaveowners. Utah's status as a free territory didn't get ironed out for some time after it was settled, and in the meantime, it does appear that some African-Americans were held as slaves by a handful of Mormon converts from the South. There is even some indication that slaves were paid as tithing.
That said, Mormons as an overall group were consistently more hostile to slavery than were the ancestors of their latter-day Southern Baptist critics. |
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He only picks on Mormons because they are nice about it...what a cowardly little varmint he is. |
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So he only picks on people who won't fight back? He won't pick on people who deserve it if they will fight back.
Well, so much for "courage of his convictions"... more cowardice of the easy targets.
I'm surprised he'd willfully admit to being a bully who only picks on targets he knows won't fight back. He seemed so worked up over it, too bad that he was just playing.
But at least he;'s honest about being a bully and a coward... that's worth something. Not much, but something. |
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And from your blog post:
"Show me one instance where the Mormon Church has ever declared Mitt Romney outside the lines of the theology of the Mormon Church on any issue."
The LDS Church tries very much to stay out of politics - even when politics involve their own members in very visible ways.
"Every God fearing American ought to research the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."
Again, I agree 100%. But how about that "research" include more than reading anti-Mormon websites and propaganda pamphlets or listening to Evangelical preachers or anti-Mormon radio hosts? As I've said before, if you want to truly examine Mormonism, talk to a practicing Mormon. Attend church services with him/her. Spend some time on the LDS.org website. Then feel free to balance that with information from non-LDS sources. Most of the information people get about Mormons are from extremely one-sided sources, like your blog (or radio show, I assume) for example. And such an approach to "research" does everyone a disservice. |
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"Mormonism is NOT orthodox Christianity"
You are 100% correct, and I doubt anyone would call you a bigot for saying so (Mormons included). The key here is the word *orthodox*.
Your claim that the LDS faith is "parading itself as Christianity" is far less solid, and frankly, inflammatory. Catholicism doesn't regarding Protestant religions as "orthodox Christianity" either. But does that make them less Christian? What offends me is the hijacking by certain Evangelical groups of the term "Christian." Jesus Christ is the Son of God and my personal Savior. All of my LDS beliefs focus on Him. So to deem me "not Christian" because we don't agree on specific points of theology at best is simply disingenuous and unfair. And at worst incredibly arrogant and, well, un-Christian.
The name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The cover of the Book of Mormon says "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Pictures of Christ can be found in every one of our church buildings. His statue is prominent in the Visitors Center in Temple Square (Salt Lake). The phrase "The House of the Lord - Holiness to the Lord" is inscribed on every LDS temple. Every prayer I utter ends in His name. I served a two-year mission at the financial cost of my own family with His name prominently displayed on my chest. So for someone to come along and tell me "You're not a Christian because you don't believe what I do" is utterly insulting. Perhaps you should look up the definition of Christian in the dictionary rather than assume you have the right to define it for the rest of us?
I find it interesting that many "Christians" spend more time trying to tear down others, often in vicious ways, and prove them to be non-Christian than they do actually living Christ's teachings (does "love one another" ring a bell?).
(continued in the next post) |
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like they run their "CULT" secretively distributing NONSENSE, and quotes taken out of context.
It is one thing for Bloggers(like me) to attack Huck/Romney on religion but another for it to be sanctioned by the Romney's official staff! CAN"T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!
THE GLOVES ARE OFF!
GO YOUTUBE.com-SEE "DNA & THE BOOK OF MORMON"-(which totally EXPOSES the founding father as a fraud from the mouths of MORMON SCIENTIST's THEMSELVES!!!)
And what about the archeological evidence for the people and cities they claimed were in the Americas(THERE IS NONE)--Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon corrects the Bible- GO SEE "The Bible AND THE bOOK OF mORMON" TOO- BOTH ARE EYE OPENING.
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Assuming Larry O. was not joking or otherwise hamming it up, his expressed fear of a Muslim violent reaction to his criticism truly says something about the immature, violent, profoundly insecure degenerates that make up much of the Islamic world. The Islamist pigs of the world (and my use of that term is deliberate)need to be taught a humiliating lesson that they'll never forget or get over, and I am pretty sure that, before this century is out, some kind of mind-boggling punishment will be meted out to them and their arrogant, ignorant supporters. |
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For the record, it was not I who made the comparison between Mormonism and Islam. It was Hugh and O'Donnell in their exchange.
To Savage Alum - my objections to the Mormon church were not meant to be hidden. I thought they were clearly stated. But neither were they "a diatribe." Mormonism is NOT orthodox Christianity. It isn't bigotry. It is a statement based on fact.
My original point still stands: conservatives allow themselves the freedom to criticize the finer points of Islam, but when the microscope is focused on the finer points of Mormonism, somehow that is off limits and is written off as bigotry.
See my post in response to Hugh at http://godandculture.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/memo-to-hewi tt-romney-isnt-mormon-like-giuliani-is-catholic/. |
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One thing that is up on Drudge and newsmax now as well as Rush commenting on it are the polls showing Oprah's impact on Obama the Empty Suit. 1% said they would now vote for Obama because of Oprah. Now that could mean something in some states, but one is also encouraged that many were not fooled by the Oprahization of America's tour. Obama is still an empty suit. Bigotry will now be brought up by the MSM that no one should ever discount Obama and they should listen to Oprah. No mention will be made about the bigotry against Mitt, Huck, Rudy or any of the GOP candidates!!! |
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With the LOD comments, the comments of most Dems in the Congress, we can see who the real bigots are. Smear, hate, slur all in the Party of the Left. They appear so smug as they dissect candidates from the GOP. They are the hypocrites who slur God, slur Christians, slur conservatives and then sit on their heightened chairs of self righteousness and make distainful commentary about fellow Americans with no proof, no integrity and no facts. What a miserable bunch of people. Hating America, its material and spiritual forebearers and heritage. Why would anyone vote for the party of these commentators? Yet, off they go all those shallow voters 'feeling' their guts and pulling the levers for socialist pacifists. Unbelievable. |
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We'll have no more of that LOGIC stuff here. Cut it out!
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It is inconsistent of O'Donnell to claim that the Mormon Church caved in to political pressure regarding blacks and the priesthood and polygamy and then claim that they will some how exert control over one of their members without caving into political pressure. Such action would lead to an inevitable backlash and probable extinction of the church if it tried to influence a member in political office.
If you don't believe that Mormons receive revelation then those decisions were due to political pressure. If they are due to political pressure there is no reason to to believe that the mormon church would jeopardize its continued existence and the lives and freedom of its members just to attempt to exert pressure that it is unable to exert given its minority status on one members in public office.
If Mitt Romney were running for dictator in chief then that might be a concern, but Bush has proven how one branch of government cannot exert influence to positively effect laws without consent of the other branches. The checks and balances are negative checks on the power of government. |
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says it all. Mitt and Rudy get 65% of all the attack press releases. Huckleberry gets 2%. The DNC's candidate of choice is clearly Huckleberry. Look, i think that Mormon theology is wacky. I'm born again. My faith in Jesus Christ is the most important part of my life. That said, i already have a Pastor and i will not be voting for one next November. I'm looking for a "bulldog" to run against, one of the lefts "girlymen". It appears to me that the 2 chief "bulldogs" are Mitt and Rudy. Huckleberry's the "poodle". Come on now, wake up. Huckleberry's endorsement, yesterday, by some union thugs, was all i needed to know about this guy. |
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I have to say this LOD is an idiot. And a bigot. Good for you, Hugh, for calling him out on it. First thing you've done that has made me respect you in awhile..... |
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The interesting thing about Paul Edward's comparisons of Mormonism to Islam is that he either doesn't know or is ignoring the simple fact. structurally and operationally, evangelican and "bible-based" Christianity is closer to the Muslim religion than Mormonism, Protestantism, or Catholicism.
Here are the facts and the analysis:
It should be noted that in terms of organizational and operational structure, the evangelical and "Bible-based" Christians are virtually identical to the Muslim religion.
Both are text focused.
Both are flat, grass-roots organizations of varying size, centered around and led by self or group appointed leaders, each with their own variation and interpretation of that text.
Neither has a central authority that can settle differences in interpretation or theology between the differing schools.
Each has more “radical” groups centered around more “radical” preachers, which the other more moderate groups have no direct power to influence, control, or "excommunicate."
And each has the same issue among the more moderate groups of being tied to the radical group by association, without really having anything to do with them.
So, one point we can draw from these facts is that the next time an evangelical or “Bible-base” Christian says they have nothing to do with an abortion clinic bomber, or with congregations that protest at a soldier’s funeral - each of whom does their despicable acts in the name of Christ – they should be the most understanding of how a more moderate Muslim is not related to or feels about other Muslims that bomb in the name of Islam.
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One other aspect that is interest is how, when the revenation on Blacks came, the entire 8 or 9 Million membership of the Church (it may have been less back then) turned on a dime. One week blacks could not hold the lay-priesthood, and the very next week all across the church they were given the priesthood.
Questions to ponder:
1. Does that immediate adoption look like a racist organization? Particularly in light of how long to took the "Christians" in the southern states to conform to and live by the rules and intent of the 14th amendment to the constitution? (Say, like, about 100 years.) It took Mormons 1 week after President Kimball's revelation.
2. If there was racism within the body of the Mormon church, you would expect the revelation on priesthood to result in substantial or wide-spread opposition, causing break-away groups and churches to form. So, where are those break-away groups? Maybe there are none because there wasn't true heartfelt racism, merely a belief that God wanted things a certain way for His own reasons.
I again claim that the evidence is not there to support claims that Mormons were racist. The burden is clearly on the accusers to come up with something. |
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...by giving this unhinged clown a single second of airtime.
Joseph Smith was very much pro-abolition. Though I'm sure O'Donnell wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of his hatred. I've never seen anything like that from a television pundit. You could almost see the spittle fly. I was expecting Buchanan to get up and deck him. Or at least slap him across the face and tell him to pull himself together.
Not even the occasional anti-Mormon vitriol in the comments of this blog have gotten close to that televised disgrace. The man should seek help. And should be banned from the airwaves in the meantime. If he had attacked, say, Jews in the same fashion, he would have been fired immediately. But the double-standard of tolerance is alive and well in today's MSM. Nor do I expect the network to offer any sort of apology to the LDS faith, though they almost certainly would do so if it had been Judaism or Catholicism that had been attacked.
@ Paul Edwards - comparing "extreme teachings" of radical Islam with "extreme teachings" of Mormonism is a pathetic joke. Think before you speak, if you can. |
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One thing that is fun as a Mormon is to watch other self-proclaimed Christians make conclusory statements based on little or no evidence whatsoever.
They just make a statement of fact or of "truth" as they see it, and don't think that they have any reason or burden to back up what they say.
Another fun aspect of that is how evengalicals think that however they read the bible is right. THey don't ever seem to ask, is my intrepretation correct, or bother to give a reason why their's might be correct.
But let's talk about Mormon's purported racism:
1. Mormons never owned slaves - Utah was always a free state. Can the critics of Mormonism that live in the south say that of their ancestors?
2. Mormons never excluded blacks from thier church, only from the lay-priesthood; but even Mormons never taught that blacks would get any less of a fair shake in the next life than any white person. Mormons have always taught that, even if some blessings are denied in this life, it will always be compensated for in the next life, and that included blessings for righteous people of all colors.
3.Today Mormons are less divided by race than most evangelical or Baptist churches that criticize them are.
4. Further, today Mormons are more supportive of the poor blacks in the inner-cities of America and in Africa by sharing the tithes for buildings equally across the entire church. From my observation, in the evangelical and Baptist world today, the rich churches in SO. Cal, and Dallas get beautiful sanctuaries, and the poor ones get shacks.
It seems the burden of disproving racism today is on the self-segregated evangelicals and Baptists, many of whose ancestors actually did own slaves. |
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Paul another anti Church of Jesus Christ diatribe hidden in your "bigot" diatribe.
So he is not your brand of Christian. I like Chevy you like Ford, so what?!?!?!?!
Besides. The orthodoxy of the main defining element of whether you are a "real christian" or not seems to hang on the acceptance of the Trinity....as defined be Christiandom...which happens to have been defined in a marriage of convenience in Nicea circa 400AD by Constantine. The first Pope who started his church about 200 after the apostles and disciples were exterminated, he himself a devout Pagan and the founder of Catholicism while being a sun-worshipper. It served politics, christians and the old school pagans to devise a compromise that looks nothing like the original and biblical apostolic church Christ started. So perhaps the cult is the one that sold out and dismissed the Christ Church, and tries to strong arm the whole if you don't believe exactly like me your'e not a christian. Again, Ford or Chevy. Just don't tell me your Ford is the exclusive and only real vehicle there is and that Chevy is just an aberrant vehicle and I have no right to be a driver. Maybe you prefer a good old tar and feathering to put those wascowe wabbits. oops, I mean rascally mormons in their place. |
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Likewise, Mr. O'Donnell accuses Mormons of racism. And, obviously, the pre-1978 ban on black ordinations to the priesthood looks like racism. But, in fact, studies conducted by Prof. Armand Mauss (a Mormon, but also an eminent Washington State sociologist of religion and an eventual president of the Society for the Social Scientific Study of Religion and editor of its journal) demonstrated that Mormons even in the pre-1978 period were no more and (unfortunately) no more racist in their attitudes than were non-Mormons of comparable socio-educational and geographical status. (Nowadays, since the revelation of 1978, I would bet, though I cannot prove it, that Mormon racial attitudes may well be somewhat BETTER than those in the general population.)
Mr. O'Donnell's claim that Mormons believed blacks to be "inferior" is simply false, and is easily PROVEN false by means of statements published by leaders of the Church many decades ago, prior to the 1978 revelation.
Finally, the suggestion, above, that, in an earlier time, the Danites (the so-called Mormon "Avenging Angels" or "Holy Murderers") would have done poor Mr. O'Donnell in for his bigoted sentiments rests upon the historically dubious notion that such "Danites" ever actually EXISTED. In fact, they have a much more vigorous life in Zane Grey and old nineteenth-century dime novels than they ever had in nonfiction history. |
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It's not the mere QUESTIONING of my faith or of Islam that makes somebody a bigot, and nobody (that I'm aware of) has suggested any such thing. But the ignorant hatred that Lawrence O'Donnell spewed out the other day certainly seems to put him in that camp.
To take an obvious example of his ignorance: He claims that Joseph Smith and the Mormons were pro-slavery. But even a slight acquaintance with Mormon history and doctrine would have told him that the Mormons were forcibly expelled from Missouri in the late 1830s because, being overwhelmingly Yankees, they were suspected of abolitionist views -- which would have upset the very precarious political balance in the territory. And he would have learned that, when Joseph Smith launched his campaign for the presidency in the 1840s, his platform included a proposal to purchase the freedom of the slaves by means of funds generated from the sale of public lands in the West.
And he would have known the Joseph Smith's revelations expressly condemn the bondage of one person to another, and expressly state that "all [explicitly including blacks] are alike unto God."
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Latest poll as of today from Rasmussen:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/ele ction_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_t racking_poll
"The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Tuesday shows that the race for the Republican Presidential Nomination can’t get much closer. Mike Huckabee attracts support from 22% of Likely Republican Primary voters nationwide and holds a statistically insignificant one-point lead over Rudy Giuliani. With 21% support, the former Mayor of New York is followed by Mitt Romney at 14%, Fred Thompson at 12% and John McCain at 9%"
There goes Hugh's "The Speech Will Change the Political Universe" meme
Hugh, many of us are just coming here for laughs daily to see you spin your man-crush on Mitt... but we won't be back again afterwords, knowing you've lost credibility in your triple-down bet on Mitt.
Strike One: Supporting Harriet Meiers to the bitter end when the rest of the conservative world was crying foul.
Strike Two: Supporting Arlen Spector in his close campaign as an establishment GOP-suckup when the conservative world wanted true conservative Toomey who narrowly lost due to propping up by those like you.
Strike 3: Ridiculously over-the-top campaign for lifelong liberal Mitt (until he got within a couple yrs of the election). You're being mocked around the blogosphere by conservatives on this one, as michelle malkin reports:
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/07/mitt-romneys-worst-ene my/
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The journalists and actors are so afraid of being killed by Islamic whackos. They fear that they *might* be attacked. That is in contrast to our incredibly brave soldiers who *know* that they will be attacked.
I have a feeling that if some of the progressives in the MSM were to put their lives on the line, and speak the truth, that Islamofascism would be defeated *alot* more quickly. |
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Coward. Nice to watch HH put him down & shovel sand in his putrid chops. Nut case. Please, somebody tell me he has no TV work since West Wing folded. His performance(!!)on the McL Group is strong evidence for thorazine Usage. |
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So when a conservative questions the extreme teachings of radical Islam he is a patriot but when a liberal like Lawrence O'Donnell questions the extreme teachings of Mormonism he is a bigot? Come on! There are plenty of CONSERVATIVES (like the widely respected Dr. Albert Mohler) who have called into question the teachings of the Mormon Church to which Mitt Romney unapologetically subscribes. Is anyone here prepared to say that Dr. Albert Mohler is a bigot?
Mormonism is a false religion parading itself as Christianity. Mitt's theology has NOTHING to do with his qualifications for president, but electing a Mormon will sure do a lot to elevate a false religion in the eyes of the nation. The issue is the defense of the Gospel, not the notion that Romney's abberant theology disqualifies him for the presidency. |
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that LO'D is back paddling on almost everything that he is being called on. After reviewing the transcript, not once does LO'D back himself up with any solidly based supports in his argument because there is simply no solid basis for any of the claims he is making. It didn't seem like Hugh really had to break a sweat in order to poke holes in his obviously flawed argument. Of course when LO'D finally figures out exactly what his argument is then maybe he could attempt at supporting that position.
Personally I have a hard time taking LO'D seriously because of a lack of maturity he has when he tries to make his case, and I honestly think that not too many people will either. |
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He tells LoD that he is Catholic. I thought Hugh went from Catholic to Presbyterian - PC USA style?
Did he recross the Tiber, or is he not being straight with his guest? |
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I thought Hugh grew up Catholic, then became a PC USA kinda Presbyterian. Did he recross the Tiber? |
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Larry O'Donnell should be glad that the LDS Church has had a reformation and abandoned some if its early impedimenta. If the Danites were still around he would be getting a visit from the modern version of O. Porter Rockwell and be sent "cross lots to Hell." |
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I'm beginning to lose all respect for the guy. Anyone who heard the entire interview last night knows that this tiny tidbit came at the end of a long line of "have you stopped beating your mother" attacks by Hugh. Apparently all for a little snippet he could paste on his blog.
Listen to the whole interview, then make up your mind about whether or not the guy is a "bigot"
These attacks are so tiresome that I find it hard to look at Romney in a positive light, simply because of Hewitt. |
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Even though Hugh has irritated me lately with Mitt 24/7, I am reminded of Hugh's incredible trial lawyer skills on display by putting LOD in the witness stand. I would have greater respect for Hugh if he was intellectually honest and put all candidates or their apologists, even those he supports, in the witness stand. |
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was trumpeting anti-mormon hysteria, Mitt probably *would* benefit in free media and eventually, polls.
L O'D, being a goofball, doesn't help much.
PMS-NBC has virtually *no* viewers, and only completely hopeless political-junkies watch McLachan.
Joe SixPack and Debbie DietCoke have only BEGUN to start paying attention.
The bigotry straw man isn't working, sorry. |
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I am just curious of who else's religion Larry feels is to small/weird to hold political office in America unless they agree with him on absolutely everything else. Does he include Sevent Day Adventist? Sikhs? Bahia's? Swedenborgians? Wiccans? Unitarian/Universalist?
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That besides being a raving bigot, he's a moral coward as well. Unbelievable. Do these Lefties have any capacity for introspection? Apparently not. |
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HH: That doesn’t go to whether or not you’re a, you went on an anti-Mormon, racist, bigoted tirade, though, Lawrence.
LO’D: Yes, I did. No, yeah. Well, what I did was, I started to talk about what you guys, I don’t know, I haven’t listened to the show, Hugh, so I don’t know about you. And I know you talk about religion more than anybody else, and in a learned way, because as far as I can tell, you know more about it than most people talking on the radio. But I did not hear in any of the coverage of Romney’s speech a single person on television, or on the radio, and I didn’t expose myself to all of it, and I didn’t see any in print as of Friday and Saturday that raised one question about what Mormons actually believe. Not one word was said about oh, by the way, this is what they believe. They believed black people were inferior until 1978.
It was a very interesting interview. |
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HH: I’m saying that George Romney marched in civil rights actions in 1962, ’63, ’64. His young son was with him on that, and that it’s silly to attribute to Romney a racist bone in his body on the basis of whatever the teachings of the Mormon Church were, and you know it’s silly, and that’s why you’re trying to give wiggle room to your Catholics who don’t want to buy into everything and not make them leave the Church.
LO’D: No, let me make my case about Romney and racism, and Mormonism and racism.
HH: Go ahead.
LO’D: It’s a very simple case. The Church that Romney is a part of, which he said in his speech, you know, he said, you remember, he said the line he’s, people like me, by the way, which is true, you know, Lawrence O’Donnell and others, would like to hear Romney say what he does not believe in the Mormon faith. That’s what I’d like to hear him…
HH: You’re in favor of a religious test for office. I’m not, but go ahead.
LO’D: No, no, no.
HH: Sure you are.
LO’D: Let me get this straight. I would vote for Romney in a second. I would vote for the head of the Mormon Church for president in a second if I agreed with the policies. In a second, I would. There’s not any religion that bothers me at all in the president…
HH: Oh, man, listening to your McLaughlin tirade, Joseph Smith was a…
LO’D: No, but back to, Hugh, Hugh…
HH: What?
LO’D: Go back to the transcript, and find the line that is in any way inconsistent with what I’m about to say.
HH: We’ll play it when we come back from break. Go ahead.
LO’D: I would vote for anyone of any religion for any political office if I agreed with the policies that they were representing.
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I think you should READ THE WHOLE THING:
LO’D: Are you a Catholic, Hugh?
HH: Yes, I am.
LO’D: Okay, you know, you’ve seen the polling, you know that in the United States of America, abortion rights are favored, Roe V. Wade abortion rights are favored by…
HH: Yeah, but that doesn’t change what the Church teaches. It just makes people…
LO’D: Hold it…
HH: …out of conformity with the Church.
LO’D: But do this. I’m going to just do an illustration, then you and I are going to find a semantic way to agree on this, okay? The point is that a majority of Americans are in favor of Roe V. Wade. A slightly larger majority of Catholics are in favor of Roe V. Wade. Now I’m not here to say to you they are no longer Catholics the second they agree with Roe V. Wade. I can’t say that. But if you want to say to me…
HH: But you know that the elder Romney…
LO’D: If you and I want to agree on a definition of Catholic, which is a Catholic is someone who follows religiously every single dictate from Rome, then I will say absolutely, there’s not a liberal Democratic Catholic elected official in the country. Not one.
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This is another benefit of Mitt's speech. It draws out the bigots because they are afraid that Mitt made end roads with evangelicals. They are getting louder, because like all bigots, they are completely convinced that they are right and God is behind them 100%. I'm glad because America hates bigots and love those they are bigoted against. +1 for Mitt. |
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