YES, the words you spoke clearly reflects the true Christian charity marcus414, and smalls as sweet as "Jesu, Joy of man’s Desire", than that rotten politically-contaminated rubbish spilled by Steve_in_Corona.
God be with you.
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Wow ... Steve, you could not be any more wrong when you say, "I do not see the Christian mandate in Scripture for eliminating poverty or disease (in fact, Jesus said the poor would be with us always)"
James 1:27, "Religion that pleases God the Father must be pure and spotless. You must help needy orphans and widows and not let this world make you evil."
1 Timothy 6:18-19, "Instruct them to do as many good deeds as they can and to help everyone. Remind the rich to be generous and share what they have. This will lay a solid foundation for the future, so that they will know what true life is like."
Matthew 25:40, "The king will answer, 'Whenever you did it for any of my people, no matter how unimportant they seemed, you did it for me.'"
Luke 3:9-11. "An ax is ready to cut the trees down at their roots. Any tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into a fire." 10The crowds asked John, 'What should we do?' John told them, 'If you have two coats, give one to someone who doesn't have any. If you have food, share it with someone else.'"
There's plenty more, but it seems redundant to go on. Your assertion demonstrates an ignorance of Scripture and your blindness to the full truth of the Gospel.
Your interpretation of the Apostles "distancing themselves from waiting tables" in Acts is faulty. The verse from Acts 6 is speaking about the fact that the result of prayer and preaching is that the hearers are led by the Spirit to feed the poor. The text details the Apostles decision to expand their ministry, delegate those responsibilities to other men who were "full of the Spirit and wisdom." In no way does this passage belittle serving the poor as a lesser responsibility than prayer or preaching.
You also understand nothing about the epidemic of AIDS in Africa. It's a disease spread by many means, increasingly rape of women and the promiscuous behavior of married men who sleep with infected prostitutes and bring the disease home to their wives. Are those women who are infected by their husbands or by their rapists "sinful" and unworthy of care and compassion?
Calling AIDS a "sin-specific" disease is not only ignorant, it's also offensive.
Regardless of what you think of Obama or Warren, let's not make things up to justify our positions. |
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Rick Warren does not pastor or , he organizes people for social outreach.
Where's the gospel warren? |
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I don't know if you all remember, but Rick Warren joined all the liberal religious people and Jimmy Carter and put his signature on a big ad they ran in the New York Times saying that America is guilty of torture vis-a-vi Abu Grahb, etc. He lost me then. There is no evidence that America supports torture or wholesale involved in torture and ad didn't slam any of hte countries or organizations guilty of real torture. I think Rick Warren is on his way to becoming a radical left-wing person. He's getting in bed with too many of them. I think perhap he is getting a bit to infatuated with his own star with all his book sales and accolades from the secular world as well as the Christian world. And he is allowing his name to be used by people from the left as their token "evangelical" -- in attempt to marginalize all other evangelicals. Now they can point to Rick Warren and say -- he believes the US tortures, etc. Therefore, you Christians who don't must be off the deep end. I don't think people should allow themselves to be used that way. The Obama things is just another example of this. I'm sure there are plenty of others who can speak on AIDs and HIV. And what has Obama done in that regard anyway. |
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Steve:
You hit the nail on the head. This pastor is playing to the world. He is doing what the world thinks he should be doing (and by the way, what his wife thinks is important). He has joined hands with a truly immoral man in Obama, which shows a horrific lack of judgment. This problem is caused by sexual promiscuity; I wonder how long and how hard they will preach this message at their summit?
I wonder if they preach the Gospel and the Word of God at their summit? Based upon my experiences at Saddleback, I doubt it, because they stay pretty far away from the tougher messages of the Bible Testament (like you are going to Hell if you are not saved). Rick just wants to have fun now, and he wants to be popular; not much room for the tough words of Jesus anymore....... |
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In reading the explanation quoted to Rick Warren (through the links), I have to ask the following.
1) Where then is the boundary in 'working together' for a common cause. Frankly, Susan Sarandon has done more for AIDS over the year than Obama. Would Hugh feel the same if she was speaking? Go back 30 years to 1976 and Obama is simply Jesse Jackson. And at least Jackson has an ordination. Would Hugh (and the various posters) see no problem with Jackson speaking at this function.
It is interesting that the pornographic film industry (due to self-preservation) has been more serious about AIDS prevention and testing than just about any other group. What if Larry Flynt showed up with a check for one million dollars to give to Warren's cause on AIDS. Do the Christians posting here (and Hugh) think Warren should accept such money?
2) The second issue is that I do not see the Christian mandate in Scripture for eliminating poverty or disease (in fact, Jesus said the poor would be with us always)
So I am not misunderstood, I do see the Biblical authority for ministering to the physical needs of humanity (regardless to whether those people be Christian or not) in the name of Christ. I am well aware of the truism that a starving man is more interested in food than the gospel.
But such 'good works' are NEVER seen as the mandate. In fact, the early apostles in Acts distanced themselves from 'waiting tables' so they could focus MORE time on the Word and prayer. These works are for the purpose of spreading the gospel and glorifying God - not an end in themselves.
It is especially ironic given the devastation of this particular disease, because AIDS, unlike most other diseases in impoverished lands, is almost completey the result of sinful sexual behavior (and sinful drug use) - with exceptions duly noted.
So it seems to me that a Christian pastor has joined with those who reject Scripture's authority as to sin, to follow a mandate not given in Scripture (cure this sin-specific disease), and to my knowledge are NOT doing so in the name of Christ alone.
This troubles me. Greatly. |
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Hugh,
You're an elder at a church that should understand God's sovereignty in the salvation of the lost. Your comment that Warren has done more for the lost than 99.9% of Americans is offensive in that it demeans God. Warren, you, and I tools in the hand of God. We are useless in and of ourselves. When someone views a painting by rembrandt they do not exalt the brush that painted the picture. Instead they honor the artist who took tool in hand and did something really remarkable. When the lost are saved, we give glory to God, not men. Men do not save, God does. You have incredibly exalted this man, who is merely a paint brush (at best) in the hand of God. That God allows a person like Warren, Hewitt, or crosby to serve Him is not a testimony to our greatness but to God's mercy in allowing us to be part of His kingdom.
Finally, it is unconscionable that "your friend" allowed a pagan to enter his pulpit under any circumstances. Your loyalty to this man is a very human trait. But your mistake in attributing the works of God to the labors of warren is a foolish trait. Give glory to God and admit your mistake (and pray for warren and his shortsightedness and desire to be "on stage" in political machinations).
Keith Crosby
Green Bay Wisconsin
P.S. say hello to Mark for me. |
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Not only is Rick Warren wrong to get this self-promoter to speak at his church, he is wrong on his global warming stance and the idea that he can sway Syria. Seems he's trying to be the white Jesse Jackson. He's obviously bought into his PR releases. If he wants to discuss what is being done about aides why doesn't he invite a member of the President's administration to come talk about what the US is actually doing to alleviate the aides/HIV problem in Africa as well as the billions of US dollars being spent on aides there? |
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with Preachers and Politicians. Jessie Jackson spoke from the pulpit of a local church here a while ago. Half the congregation was confused, angered, and dismayed that the Pastor invited him (or let him invite himself no doubt) to address them. What moral authority does he hold? She obviously let celebrity status go to her head.
Maybe Kennedy or Clinton could speak next time at Warren's church? |
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anamchara wrote
"Warren is not just inviting Obama to speak "at a conference", he is inviting the man to speak from the pulpit of his church. I can understand how people have a problem with Obama's invasion of the sacred space of a church's worship center and its pulpit, even if it's not occuring during the regular services."
AMEN!
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Davycrock writes:
Did you ever think God might be using Rick as a way to reach Obama?
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Sadly, no.
In this case (and in another in providing cover for Global Warming), Rick Warren mistakenly gives moral cover to one who does not otherwise share his values. The irony is that as Warren now raises the cache of a truly non-moderate committed leftist...he has unfortunately decreased his own credibilitywith many.
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Rick Warren is not Biblical and NOT to be trusted.
I believe Hugh needs to do a little more research.
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/pd-deception.htm
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/pd-deception.htm
On November 16, WorldNetDaily founder Joseph Farah wrote,
"Rick Warren wrote to me this morning to protest this column. He claims he didn't say anything he was actually quoted as saying by the official press in Syria. However, in a video... he says Syria 'does not allow extremism of any kind.' In fact, Syria is, in many ways, the No. 1 sponsor of terrorism in the world.... Here's what the Syrian Arab News Agency reported: '...Pastor Warren hailed the religious coexistence, tolerance and stability that the Syrian society is enjoying due to the wise leadership of President al-Assad....'"[5]
Despite contrary evidence, Warren proclaimed what the Syrian President al-Assad apparently told him. But the soon-to-follow assassination of Pierre Gemayel, a Christian anti-Syrian official in the Lebanese government -- therefore a foe to the Syria-backed Hezbollah terrorists -- should shatter those public illusions of tolerant coexistence.[6]
Finally, in a startling expose on November 20, Joseph Farah wrote,
"I pointed out to Warren that WND had indeed attempted to contact him about his trip. No one from his Saddleback Church ever returned our calls the day the story broke. 'I'm sure since you were warned in advance by the State Department that you took the precaution of recording your own words,' I suggested in my response. 'We look forward to seeing the transcripts.'...
"I really didn't expect to hear back from Warren – but, a few minutes later, I did, with an absolutely stunning retort. He let me know he is a close friend of President Bush 'and many, if not most, of the generals at the Pentagon.' He also told me he did not tape anything while in Syria, 'because it was a courtesy call, like I do in every country.' Warren explained that he had also counseled with the National Security Council and the White House, as well as the State Department, before his little courtesy call.... 'In fact, Warren added, 'as a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and Oxford Analytica, I might know as much about the Middle East as you.'...
"Not one to let lies go unchallenged, I wrote back to Warren with a link to the YouTube video: 'If you didn't tape anything, what's this?... It might be that Rick Warren, deep in the bush of Rwanda, never received those last questions, because he never responded – at least not in the last three days. He did, however, within minutes make sure the YouTube video he recorded independent of his meetings with the Syrian brown shirts was removed from the network."[2
Listen to the tape Rick Warren denied making HERE http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/pd-deception.htm
(Scroll down to bottom of page) This is only one example of the "not to be trusted" Rick Warren.
Joseph Farah's explanation of this tape:
Rick Warren on Syria: 'A moderate country': "...Less tension? Let me explain how Warren's buddy, dictator Bashar Assad, manages to keep peace and tranquility. Secret police. Wiretapping. Torture. Political prisoners. Death squads. Bashar's father, Hafez, was the master at heavy-handed Big Brother tactics. When the citizens of Hama rose up to challenge his authority in February 1982, Assad sent in Syrian troops to massacre between 10,000 and 25,000 civilians. The town was paved over and marked permanently to ensure that others would learn the terrible lesson. It worked. There's been 'peace,' as Rick Warren would call it, ever since....
"...the Assads simply crush any extremism that threatens their tyrannical rule. But Syria plays ball with the terrorists by allowing them to use Syria.... That's why Syria serves as the headquarters for more terrorist organizations than any other country in the world....
"Rick Warren has been deceitful about the nature of this trip and the content of his statements from the beginning. Last week, after I first challenged him about the trip, he denied making any statements like this.... When I asked him if he made any recordings while there that could help clear his name, he said he did not."
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Hugh is right on this one. First, it's Warren's church, so as the pastor, he can decide who gets to come speak at his church. He's accountable to his congregation for those decisions. I wouldn't want someone telling me who could speak in my church.
Second, HIV/AIDS is a major issue in our world. So is abortion. Just because a person is wrong -- even horribly, destructively wrong -- on one issue, that doesn't disqualify them from speaking truth on the other. If we started vetting the kind of people we let speak in our churches by such a vigorous standard, then no one is going to be speaking.
Warren has done a lot of good on the issue of HIV/AIDS. He wants to continue doing that, so if he thinks letting Obama speak, then so be it. Perhaps Warren and his congregation, through their incarnational ministry of Jesus' love, will have an effect on Obama.
Even if Obama is simply using this as an entree into the evangelical community and their vote, I think things begin to get really murky when we start assigning motives. Obama has been to Kenya to raise awareness of the issue of HIV/AIDS. Warren has been to places like Rwanda and other African countries doing similar work. I think it's a fine gesture for Warren to invite Obama. |
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Thank you, Hugh. As a pastor (semi-evangelical!) I agree with you completely. Addressing the issue of AIDS in a way that actually reduces its occurance and provides support and care for all those affected by it is not something that conservative Christians, liberal/progressive Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Republicans Democrats or even Americans can accomplish without gathering as much support for this cause as is possible.
To do less than working together is to abandon the effort at the outset . . . and only proves that the effort was either insincere or misplaced from the beginning.
Bravo to Pastor Rick! And Bravo to Sen. Obama for being willing to work with someone whose political heart is clearly on the other side of the aisle. |
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Rick Warren's ego is clearly getting the better of him. Why else would he invite Barak Obama to speak at his church? Obama credentials on AIDS are -- what? He's simply (at this time) the media's darling for 2008, who thinks he can build support among naive, starry-eyed Evangelical Christians who are (unfortunately) too lazy (or don't care) to take a few minutes to research Obama's pro-abortion and decidedly liberal voting record in Illinois and the U.S. Senate.
The great majority of AIDS cases, particularly in Africa, are due to married men having sex with infected prostitutes and then passing the disease on to their wives. The solution is for men to honor their marriages, not money. Let's see if Obama, let alone Rick Warren, mentions that at the AIDS conference. Don't hold your breath. It's all about ego, and Warren should be held to account for it. |
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...for himself than any other. I am one of those that is more than a little wary of a political speech to be given from the pulpit. Evidently the Word isn't enough. I am also weary of the Saddleback Similes and Willow Creek Wannabees. Eisegesis and proof texting dont impress me much. |
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I agree with Hugh Hewitt. It also shows that Kevin McCollough may be one of the most extreme voices at Townhall.com. |
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Obama is a rookie senator, what possible benefit can he provide to a conference on AIDS (besides using it as a forum to further his political ambitions). He has no experience in health care related issues nor past organizational skills in the area. What he does have is a non-Christian world view which includes aggressive pro-abortion beliefs.
Rick and Hugh are both wrong on this, Heck Obama directly contradicts at least four of Rick's "5 non-negotiables". |
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I think you are way, way off base on this one Mr. Hewitt. It is a grave mistake to allow the involvement of a morally comprised huckster like Obama. Obama "claims" to be a Christian, yet in his public life supports the homosexual agenda and partial birth abortion. The church does not to get into bed with types such as these. I hate to break it to you Hugh, but Rick has gotten a big fat head; he has became a "Christian rock star" and the only reason why Obama is at that conference is because he has star appeal. He certainl has no credentials in the AIDS fight, and no credentials whatsoever in the Christian community. This is a political manuever on both of their parts to futher their own power agendas. The fact that you can't see this means that you are blinded by your friendship.
Light and darkness have no fellowhsip with each other, and Barack Obama has nothing to offer as evidenced by his stance on partial birth abortion, and his willingness to allow aborted birth babies to starve to death. This man is a wicked man; don't be fooled by his smile; the fact that Rick Warren wants to make nicey nice with him should be deeply distrubing to you as well. Think of what true men of God due to the poweful when they are confronted with their evil; they don't make nicey nice with them; they smack them down with the truth of God's word. They don't invite them into their den's, give them their podium's, invite them to speak, and tell them what a swell guy they are. Rick is just comprimising with the world, and Obama is nothing more than another slipperly politician that you can't trust as far as you can throw him.....
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He's speaking and that makes a difference.
Last year our church hosted a conference on debt management which we offered to the local community. The main speaker was a guy affiliated with a Christian based organization and some of the church members led small groups, but we also allowed the local director of a non-profit debtor education and management group to speak. She's a nice lady, but not a Christian and actually disagreed with the main speaker about tithing. That was okay with us because she was not speaking for the church and the audience had as much right to agree with the Christian guy as the her. We were given the opportunity to witness to our community regardless of whether all the speakers were in total agreement with the Bible.
I don't know what Obama will say. I don't know if Rick Warren has placed any constraints on him. A full-bird coronel once spoke at our English school graduation and, knowing he was not a Christian and was a lifelong military man, we did remind him that his speech should not contain profanities or references to sex. He managed a nice speech even following those rules. So, I am inclined to say ...
This issue is a tempest in a teapot and the attendees at this conference can take what they like of what Obama says and leave the rest where it lies. Like our credit counselor lady, he might have useful things to say despite not being in God's good graces. And, when he says stuff that's not useful, well, if these people are caring enough to attend this conference and intelligent enough to register for it, they're probably not stupid enough to mistake Obama's liberalism for Rick Warren's gospel message. |
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I disagree with Hugh here and agree with Kevin.
http://kevinmccullough.townhall.com/#71b0cfca-b62c-40ed-9c86-941cd5589a10
Hugh may not be aware of Warren's actual denials and outright deceptions in his attempt to cover his tracks on the Syria issue from a couple of weeks back. But Hugh's two paragraph defense of Warren doesn't cut it on several layers.
Rick has convinced Hugh that allowing for "difference on the issue of abortion" will not impact the common good that can be achieved in striving for the prevention or eradication of HIV/AIDS. Yet it does! And to not say so betrays poor things about the mind of those who make such justifications.
The worldview that Obama has - shares nothing in common with biblically minded folks. And Obama's professed compassion for those at risk of HIV/AIDS is superficial at best
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Hugh,
I don't think you get it this time (you usually do, imnsho!) *because* Warren is your friend.
The problem is not just that Obama and Warren disagree and that it's on important issues. The problem is that Obama is ENTHUSIASTIC in his support of the agenda of death. He is not only pro-abortion, he's anti-restrictions of any reasonable sort, including restrictions on infanticide aka "infants born alive".
And Warren is not just inviting Obama to speak "at a conference", he is inviting the man to speak from the pulpit of his church. I can understand how people have a problem with Obama's invasion of the sacred space of a church's worship center and its pulpit, even if it's not occuring during the regular services.
In addition, it seems to me to be hypocritical to have written his "5 non-negotiables" essay regarding the 2004 election and then invite a man who is on the wrong side of everyone of those issues - if not of record then by default because of his views on the other issues. Last night, 10-minute search on the internet turned up ample evidence that Obama has taken positions and supported legislation on the wrong side of at least 4 of Warren's non-negotiables.
That's why it's a problem. And no matter how much good Warren has done, it doesn't make him immune to criticism when he blows it - and this time he's blown it.
Kamilla |
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Hugh,
As always, I value your points and love your insight.
I'm not sold however, and think the negative far outweighs the benefit in this case. Surely Sen. Obama is not the only worthy public servant capable of attending this conference and helping in the fight against a truly terrible disease. |
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Simply put, Rick is following Jesus.
People are freaking out on this non-issue, but hey thats America for you nowadays, religious or not.
I kind of gotta wonder why people are so uptight that Rick would invite a pro-abortionist to speak at a AIDS conference.
Do people honestly think Obama will speak about a pro-abortion platform at a AIDS conference?
I don't think so.
Did you ever think God might be using Rick as a way to reach Obama?
America has many problems other than fake Christians, or "Holy than God Himself" Christians.
America in my opinion needs to chill out, let your political worries rest on Jesus. You'll be much happier!!!
Truly, God knows what he's doing. |
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The written end-time prophecies from the scripture speak to us today. If there ever was a time when we as believers needed to heed their warnings and admonition it is NOW. To have fellowship with unbelievers, and to do so in the name of the Lord, publicly, is sufficent reason to place ones-self under suppicion as to intent. "Wisdom is known of all her children." |
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Hugh,
I agree with you and have known Rick for about 25 years since we were both young and in the ministry in the Saddleback Valley area. It is time to get Obama on record for speaking on anything. Aides is an issue that would be a good starter for him. The liberal side is always saying we aren't doing enough...maybe just maybe he might say what can be done other than spend more money. President Bush has done much, many- many ministries are doing wonderful things - making a real difference. So speak oh wise Obama we are wondering if you have more to add beyond speaking? Rick you did the right thing to ask him to speak!
Stephen (Colorado Springs)
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