Saturday, July 11, 2009
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Newsweek: Obama "More Catholic" Than the Pope
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Posted by:
Meredith Jessup at
11:16 AM
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In the most outrageous claim I've come across since... well, since Secretary Geithner's comments yesterday, Newsweek takes the cake with a column by former Maryland Lt. Governor and daughter of the late Robert Kennedy, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. Townsend, commenting on the president's visit with Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican yesterday, asserts not only that Pope Benedict could learn a thing or two from Obama about pragmatism and social justice, but also that Obama better represents the views of Catholics in America than the Holy Father.
What a claim.
After a substantial rant outlines her personal complaints and disagreements with the pope and Catholic teachings in general, the Democrat proposes that Catholic truths should be determined by a majority vote. How does she justify her proposal? By citing public opinion poll numbers:
When Sen. John Kerry, a pro-choice Catholic, ran for president in 2004, several bishops decided to deny him communion. A poll done at the time by Time magazine showed that 73 percent of American Catholics disagreed with that decision, and 83 percent said the bishops’ move wouldn't change their vote.
For Obama, respectful disagreement and a willingness to recognize differences was the animating spirit of the presidential campaign, and it was central to his Notre Dame speech. That is the kind of politics many Catholics practice. They’re tired of watching the church grasp frantically for control at the expense of truth and love. In America last November, it showed: 54 percent of Catholics voted for Obama.
God forbid the Catholic Church stand by its principles and faithful traditions when it comes to selecting a leader to run the country and not bend to appease 54% of Catholics! I wish I could say I was surprised by the fact a Democrat like Townsend would turn to polling numbers for moral guidance. Afterall, centuries of Catholic truths don't apply to today's "progressive" society--people voted for CHANGE! Somehow, I don't think Townsend's ideas are exactly what people had in mind.
In Townsend's view, we Catholics need to get with the program. Free condoms and on-demand abortions are apparently in today; God and rosary beads are so yesterday. She concludes, "The pope has a lot lot to learn about politics in America. Barack Obama can teach him."
Since religion is one of the very few areas of our lives the government has not completely trampled on or taken over, here's an idea: let's leave politics out of it.
Townsend may receive her divine moral guidance from Obama. As for me, I'll be sticking with God and continuing to thank Him for term limits.
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... (the real name of Newsweek). President B. Hussein O. is the new lefty libs' defacto religious master. He is both a god, and the manifestation of that god on earth to the lefties. It is clear that they worship him unquestioningly and are willing to go along with his dictates without reasoning, logic or analysis of consequences. If their "Messiah Tse Tung" says it must be so, then, by god, it must be so. If Big Government must dictate the energy usage of The People to "save" the planet, then it must be so. If Big Government must dictate to The People what their health care will be in order to "save" them, then it must be so.
Lefties, you hae become the ugliest manifestation of religionist extremists. God help the rest of us. |
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...speak for a lot of Catholics. How sad is THAT? But her comments might wake up church leaders.
A couple of months ago I had two hispanic ladies who barely speak English working at my house. I had conservative talk radio piped thru the intercom system, going into every room.
Concerned that it might annoy them, I told them they could turn it off. Oh no, they replied, we find it very interesting. Then they asked me what I thought of Obama. Terrible for the country I told them.
They then said their priest had been preaching vigorously against the tendency to diefy Obama. Somebody's gettin' it--even if that abortion-loving, loony Townsend and her cafeteria Catholics are not.
In a match up between God and Obama, Obama wins with these people. And the Republicans believe they might have a chance?
Maybe not. |
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...came from Caroline Kennedy, stating that from what people had told her about her father BHO was very similar.
Not to diefy JFK either, but good grief! JFK must be spinning in his grave at that comparison.
I was in Chile in the early 60's. On every wall was written grafitti, yet unknown in the US, touting Castro, Che, Mao and Nikita. Cuba si; yanquis no. And death to the yanqui pig (JFK) in Washington. This clamor sadly came to pass while I was there.
And who were these anti-Americans? The liberation theology professors and their lame-brained students who convinced the poor that all capitalists needed to die for them to live.
And who is our proud progressive, quasi-Marxist leader today? The same One whose campaign headquarters sported a poster of Mao and whose pastor screamed to high heavens: G. damn America!
Who really killed JFK? We may never know this side of heaven. But a case could be made that.....well, you get my point.
We knew Jack Kennedy and he was no BHO. |
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her Catholic mind, eh? Any of you capable of refuting her point of view?
"When Sen. John Kerry, a pro-choice Catholic, ran for president in 2004, several bishops decided to deny him communion. A poll done at the time by Time magazine showed that 73 percent of American Catholics disagreed with that decision, and 83 percent said the bishops’ move wouldn't change their vote."
True or not? Americans first, Catholics second. That's the American way==religion subordinate to our nation.
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Over two millenia the Christian Church has had to deal with a major threat at any given time. Once it was paganism, then Arianism, then Islam (we are still dealing with this one today), then it had to stand firm during the enlightenment, then Marxism (still found in the Demoncratic Party today). But the late great Francis Schaeffer who was the second greatest Christian Apologost & Philosopher (C.S. Lewis came in first)noted before he died in 1984 that the greatest threat to the Church in the future would be "Statism" which is also a term used by Mark Levin in his book "Liberty & Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto". The Church leaders in this country need to wake up and start attacking liberalism as being unchristian and incompatible with the Christian Faith and even going so far as to excommunicate those who refuse to give up their liberalism. You can be a faithful liberal or you can be a faithful Christian, but you can never be both. The liberals at least know that their greatest enemy is The Church, it is time for the Church to wake up and know that their greatest enemy is liberalism. |
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Obama is above all: Revered church leaders, the ordinary conservative voter (drone whom he distains), the wisdom of the founding fathers, the wisdom of sociologists on norms and stability of the traditional family, the findings of real scientists (not Al Gore and staff), and the list goes on. (Who taught you the weird principles of accounting where you spend monies that don't even exist -- except in printer's ink?)
Obama certainly puts himself at the head of the list of being the global authority on .... everything .... under the sun.
Now he's highter than God (and I'm not Catholic)?
Such respect for the sacred.
Wonder how close his mother came to aborting him?
It certainly would have been convenient for her and saved him (and us) the public soul searching for his personal identity father figures. Too bad Wright and Avers and others filled that enotional vacuum in his life for a significant male figure.
Yes, I know: pop psychology on Town Hall.
Obama (Mr. President, I mean): You have no respect for the deeply held religious beliefs of thousands of US citizens.
And I have no HOPE that you are ever going to CHANGE.
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Neither truth nor morality is determined by majority vote. Truth is eternally fixed by God. So, too, the Creator is the One who determines what is right and wrong for His creation. Just because a majority votes that homosexuality, abortion, or confiscatory taxes is right will not make it so in the eyes of a holy God. |
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I sincerely think that Townsend forgot to use the small "c"...What she is saying is that she is afraid that the entire Christian thingy may be real but she want to live a secular life. Well, the only way to do that is to make the Catholic Church do away with it teachings. Which to me isn't such a bad thing if, they would "live like Jesus Christ" in order to Christians. And that goes for all religious people. Saying you believe in Jesus is fine, but in order to reap the benefits you must live your life like Christ. The toughest thing in the planet do, certainly for Uberlefties!!! |
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Break out the dunce cap for Ms. Kennedy-Townsend.
The only defining elements of being a Catholic are attendance at the Mass and participation in the Sacraments.
Many Catholics have voted Democrat while holding their noses. American Catholics have never been religious first and Americans second.
There is no confederation between Catholics and radical social issues anymore than there is alignment of Catholics with doctrines of military intervention. Some can support or acccept either.
The only confederation that believes that the souless/Christian faithless Barack Obama is more 'Catholic" than the Pope on issues of note for American Catholics is a confederation of dunces.
The Kennedy's are comic book Catholics living off of Rose Kennedy's memory. All caricature and some rear-ward glances in endowment pews.
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Senator Kerry's stand on abortion is a public flouting of Church teachings. ACatholic who publicly goes against the teaching of the Church should not of himself as a good Catholic. Kerry should have known better then to queue up for communion. He didn't.
Many Catholics today (Kerry, Townsend) don't understand why they can't be publicly against Church teachings and privatly good Catholics. This most often comes up with regard to abortion when Catholics claim to be "personally opposed" to abortion but insist they must make a difference between what they believe as individuals and what they do as politicians. But how can a politician legislate in favor of something he or she "personally" believes to be an abomination?
Kerry and Townsend. Two peas in a pod. |
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it says that the Anti Christ will be delivered a shot to the heart but he will not die. If this happens to Obama I for one will then know for sure that Ts is as I have always suspected and he
truly is....the ANTI CHRIST!! |
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it says that the Anti Christ will be delivered a shot to the heart but he will not die. If this happens to Obama I, for one, will then know for sure that he is as I have always suspected ....the ANTI CHRIST!! |
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a Sunday Catholic only! She becomes devout on Sunday, beating her breast as a very public sign of her sincerity and faith during the celebration of the Mass---it's all showmanship (or in her case showwomanship!). Like the liberal she is, she provides lip service only to the Church, picking and choosing only those tenets which are "reasonable" and don't require too much effort. We all know Catholics like this---all talk and no action!
KG, JFK truly loved his country, the same cannot be said of the boy-king. He has carefully and successfully created generational debt, usurped private enterprise, and undermined the Constitution. |
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Apparently you missed the point of the article. Many, if not most, that read here are not surprised. At issue is the immutability of truth and the transient nature of popular opinion. At the heart of it is theology. The moment you ask or answer the question "Is there a God?" you are doing theology. In this case, is God eternally true or does He change with poll numbers. In one case you have strength, and the other, uselessness. So often we are told "If you don't like it, don't watch it." by the apologists of moral decline. If I may be so bold as to speak for the apologists of the church, if you don't like it, stay out. If you want a weak, limp, ineffective, human opinion driven sycophant, go somewhere else.
Townsend began a theological and doctrinal conversation that she clearly is not qualified to support or continue in any real debate or examination.
Also on display is the "I'm special and unique, listen to me" crybaby approach in dealing with authority. Which brings up the discussion of the difference between uniqueness and individuality...maybe later.. |
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Newsweek should just go ahead and change its name to Obamaweek.... |
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Think newsweek has just RNRAGED all the Catholics of the World except for the lunatic prager. |
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Don't ya think the Anti Christ would have his PAPERS in order, i.e., Birth Certificate, College Transcripts, Visa Records, muslim school records???????????????????
bo's an ILLEGAL ALIEN CRACK HEAD BI-SEXUAL! but he ain't the Anti-Christ! |
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Separation of Church and State. Kennedy Townsend separate you and your uncle from the Church. |
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Mrs. Obama head garb at the Vatican was bizarre.
Wearing a full length black mantilla, one that would have been front and center in 16th Century Spain did not connote any version of respect for the place or the audience with the Pope.
First Ladies have been wearing trim and smart head gear at the Vatican since Mrs. Kennedy and none have descended into costume parody as did Ms. Obama this week in Italy.
I’d venture that the mantilla worn by Mrs. Obama was actually a back-hand attempt to ridicule the Vatican and the tradition of covering ones head.
It‘s as if the faithless Obama’s wanted to mock the Pope by playing ‘dress-up’ with Mrs. Obama’s head covering. As if to say, ‘look world, when you come here, you have to hide under cloth. No different than the chador or the burka even.’ The Obama’s version of equivalency of all things of faith.
Now, to be fair, Mrs. Obama is damned if she does/doesn’t.
After her handlers have doubled-speaked her into a fashionista and the media has celebrated her as the best style since couture took a cut; she’s at risk for any choice she makes. She could have gone to Rome however and eschewed the parody of Isabella I for something more akin to Nancy Reagan or Jackie O’s normal head appearance.
But then, why miss the chance to make a point … at least she didn’t back-slap the Pope.
These two individuals live to ridicule conventions and the traditions of others and all that has preceded their little views of society and western cultural development.
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SCUM should have been excommunicated long ago! |
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rest of us. He is no more holier than I, Obama or anyone else. That is for God to judge not us humans. And by the way I am catholic and I dont take orders from the pope or any human being for that matter.
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Over-Charging the WH Credit Card doesn't make one stylish. |
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"God forbid the Catholic Church stand by its principles and faithful traditions when it comes to selecting a leader to run the country and not bend to appease 54% of Catholics!"
I agree that religious institutions should be run like for-profit corporations or politics, where popular taste and opinion counts.
But where do you think the Catholic Church in the USA would be if all of its communicants who practiced birth control were to leave? If every Catholic who is pro-choice were excommunicated? Probably not the single largest denomination in the country. |
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what he wrote about da muslims.
Benny must of been holding his nose when da muslim bo came calling on the Vatican with his stylish "chicago muslim wife." |
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that an ILLEGAL ALIEN CRACK HEAD muslim BISEXUAL is NOT what they had in mind for their President. |
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that Obama's the Antichrist. Dumba$$ Christians have been playing the "Antichrist Guessing Game" for far too long.
But this is indicative of the type of insanity that will prevail among liberals when the Antichrist finally does appear.
If he's a literal figure, that is. Either way, libby-lefties are the kind of apostate the biblical prophecy is talking about. |
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... She's flagrantly ignorant like her cousin. I guess smarts don't run too deep in the Kennedy family line. |
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info@kathleenkennedytownsend.com
I just did. I didn't have much nice to say. |
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"For Ghana, Obama's visit will be a celebration of another milestone in African history as it hosts the first-ever African-American President on this presidential visit to the continent of his birth."
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"I guess smarts don't run too deep in the Kennedy family line."
Smarts does. Well, smarts of a certain useless variety, that is. Faith, however, does not. The Kennedys, all of them, to a man and to a woman, are apostates. |
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hahahahhhhhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaahahhhaa---
I needed a laugh so hard it hurts laugh.
Thanks MSM. |
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about where bo was BORN?!?!?!?!?!?!
I thought Hawaii wa the "continent of bo's BIRTH?"
http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/07/new-reports-cite- obamas-african-home.html |
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However, the Obamas were meekly subsurvient to Islamic customs: BO bowed and Michie stayed home with the kiddies.
I thought the Isabella mantilla looked like funeral garb: the death of capitalism, celebrated by both the Pope, in his social justice encyclical and the Obamas in their proud progressive poo-poo. |
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He is human yes, but in the business of running the church he is Jesus' annointed one, so he might be holier than you and me. You might want to pay attention to what Benedict sez cause he is the Boss, not just another human. I bet you take orders from a cop or a boss, better take orders from the pope unless your a cafeteria Catholic. |
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among evangelicals at least, "God Doesn't Have Grandchildren"..which means each person must come to faith individually. Whether Catholic, Protestand or Evangelical..it's all the same, either you believe what scripture says or you don't; if you think because your parents were believers and your grand parents on back down the line you have fire insurance..think again.
I'm not Catholic, was raised Episcopalian but left after marriage to a Lutheran..we both are now non denominational evangelicals. What Mz
Townsend fails to realize is that if you are going to say you are Christian yet refuse to follow you are a hypocrite. Abortion/homosexual/
fornication, lying etc are all sins that are now acceptable to God (there's a long list of them in the Bible). God is a Holy God, He cannot look upon SIN, so they may deify Obama all they want but it ain't gonna make it so..it just puts him in danger of being as Jonathon Edwards said,
Sinner(s) in the Hands of an Angry God..and it's because there are so many religious pagans in this country and leadership..we are about to learn what that means. Our only hope is to return in repentence to Him, He gave us our Republic and we owe it to Him to have our culture reflect that. This government as one founder said, wil only work for a 'moral and religious people'..stray and we have the chaos of 2009. |
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"Even Pro-Choice Catholics will realize that an ILLEGAL ALIEN CRACK HEAD muslim BISEXUAL is NOT what they had in mind for their President."
Obama is bisexual now? When did that happen?
He was born in Kenya, you know. |
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"[Benedict] is the Boss, not just another human."
The pope is more than human? Does this show up on medical tests? CAT scans? Gene sequencing? |
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If you keep repeating the fact that Obama was born in Kenya, some people might begin to actually believe that YOU believe it. |
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I love ya, but you might be wrong on this one. |
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vonryansexpress you hit the nail on the head. The Obamas are mocking faith, esp Christian faith. What was the Good Friday Pizza Party? The first White House Seder? The Obamas hate all the values of America (just like bin Laden) and they're laughing at us while they spend our money.
I feel sorry for the folks who think Obama will bring "justice". What he really means is that he's gonna get even with those who don't share his philosophies. |
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Africans think most Americans are stupid for not realizing obvious FACT that bo was BORN a KENYAN Citizen.
To Africans it is sort of like knowing that Abe Lincoln was BORN in Kentucky, you know. |
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"If you keep repeating the fact that Obama was born in Kenya, some people might begin to actually believe that YOU believe it."
But I DO believe it. I also believe that Kenya was secretly made our 51st state in 1959, thus meaning that Obama is eligible to be president. It's a little-known fact that every American flag has a fifty-first star sewn into it, of exactly the same color as the blue field on which it is sewn. Inspect your flag carefully next time.
Of course, the whole thing was kept secret because three rows of seventeen stars would make for a very oddly-shaped flag. |
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he has all the earmarkings as being the Anti Christ. He is everything this country and indeed the world need to fear, and he is an evil man who has no use for God or anything decent moral or Christian. |
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"What was the Good Friday Pizza Party?"
That was ok; the cheese on the pizzas was Swiss (get it? It was "holey.")
"The first White House Seder? The Obamas hate all the values of America"
Having a Seder shows hatred of American values? Funny, you don't look jewish.
(Actually, Swiss cheese on a pizza WOULD show hatred of American values.) |
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as stupid. Keep it up, the world is watching. |
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Obama their Native Son??
Could it just be wishful thnking on their part? Me doubts it.
I'm going to see if I can find Bo's mother's parents see if they are still living and check to see if they KNOW that he was born in Kenya? |
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i have to hand it to you. first time i ever heard liberalism compared to Arianism.
this is a liberal country. it is an Enlightenment country. We were Christian colonies. The colonists fled the old country to escape religious persecution--and/or to make a buck or two. But it took the Enlightenment to make us a Republic.
We liberals inherit the tradition that was at the root of our nation's founding. All the Mark Levin nonsense in the world ain't gonna change that.. |
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but this is interesting from the Obama Files:
Barack Hussein Obama is a privileged African-American, who has not shared the black American experience. By birth, blood and training, he was a Muslim, who became a member of a Marxist, Black-African church. He is a socialist whose politics are rooted in Marx and whose tactics were conceived by the communist, Alinsky. He is a master at shaping his own mythology and completely unqualified to be Commander in Chief. He is not now, nor ever has been, a "natural born citizen" -- he was, at birth, a British subject and citizen of Kenya --this fact is published on his own website. |
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I wonder if KKT is sane. I am sure she has little or no understanding of the Catholic Faith. |
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...are not insane, just pi$$ed that the clueless Pope keeps perpetuating all his stupid, backward, old school notions such as the belief that God is against abortion.
Enlightened Catholics like her (I've heard her say this in the past), get it while the Pope does not.
She believes SHE is more Catholic than the Pope-- who needs to wake up and smell the abortion rights like BHO has.
Gay marriage activists are the same: madder than hatters that certain faiths stubbornly stick to their out-moded notions that God considers homosexuality a sin. How bigotted is THAT? |
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Do you have some kind of problem with my religion? |
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News source is a sad thing to see. I grew up with Newsweek, a source of news my WW2 vetran father swore by. I'm certain his headstone is ready to fall over, what with him spinning in his grave over the propaganda rag a once fine magazine has become. |
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John Kerry has excommunicated himself. So has Ted Kennedy and all other
“person’s [whose] formal cooperation [in grave sin] becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws)”
“In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propoganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’”
(Pope Benedict XVI, “Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion - General Principles)
“Canon 1398: A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”
"Canon 1329: §2 In the case of a latae sententiae penalty attached to an offence, accomplices, even though not mentioned in the law or precept, incur the same penalty if, without their assistance, the crime would not have been committed, and if the penalty is of such a nature as to be able to affect them; otherwise, they can be punished with ferendae sententiae penalties.”
“Cann 915: Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion.”
Latae sententiae excommunication is automatic and immediate. It requires no formal church action of any kind and the person may not receive communion.
Complain as these excommunicated Catholics will, they can neither rewrite canon law nor alter the most fundamental tenants of the church. If they truly suffered a conflict of conscience, they would join another denomination or start their own. Their real goal is to sow discord among the faithful by creating scandal.
Unfortunately, they have many allies in the American clergy. The terrible secret that most Catholics are unaware of is that the American clergy is infested with rebellious priests, Bishops, and even Cardinals. |
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"Do you have some kind of problem with my religion?"
Probably. |
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Good, cause if my religion gives you a problem then that seals the deal , I know it is the one true religion. |
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"that seals the deal , I know it is the one true religion."
Doesn't everybody believe that about their own particular brand of superstition? |
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Like I said,if you have a problem with my religon I know it is the true one. |
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Play your silly asssed game calling my religion a superstition, boy that pains me so much, grow up. |
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"But where do you think the Catholic Church in the USA would be if all of its communicants who practiced birth control were to leave? If every Catholic who is pro-choice were excommunicated? Probably not the single largest denomination in the country."
Where would it be, you ask? In a much better place. "Smaller and purer", to quote B16.
For far too long the Church of Rome in America has been plagued by "Episcopalianizers": pseudo-Anglican apostates like you. Let them leave and join TEC on the road to hell. |
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is a superstition. No one as clueless as he is can truly exist. |
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[[i have to hand it to you. first time i ever heard liberalism compared to Arianism.
this is a liberal country. it is an Enlightenment country. We were Christian colonies. The colonists fled the old country to escape religious persecution--and/or to make a buck or two. But it took the Enlightenment to make us a Republic.
We liberals inherit the tradition that was at the root of our nation's founding. All the Mark Levin nonsense in the world ain't gonna change that..]]
Bluh-BLUH, Bluh-BLUH, Bluh-BLUH.
What absolute, unmitigated, historically ignorant drivel.
The Founding Fathers would have ridden you and your fellow $hit-for-brains liberals out of town on a rail. |
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"But where do you think the Catholic Church in the USA would be if all of its communicants who practiced birth control were to leave? If every Catholic who is pro-choice were excommunicated? Probably not the single largest denomination in the country."
It is not the Here and Now that the Church is concerned with, but Eternity. Christ came for the Sinners, but the Sinner must first admit, confess, and repent of thier sins. |
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"calling my religion a superstition"
Not just your religion, all of them. You believe in the supernatural, right? Powerful invisible beings, miracles, an afterlife, the power of prayer, etc. etc. That's exactly what superstition is.
How is belief in an afterlife, in "ancestors looking down from Heaven," different from belief in ghosts and goblins? How is believing in the power of prayer different from believing in the power of broken mirrors or black cats? How is believing in the power of a horseshoe different from believing in the power of a cross? |
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"Not just your religion, all of them. You believe in the supernatural, right? Powerful invisible beings, miracles, an afterlife, the power of prayer, etc. etc. That's exactly what superstition is."
Well, not actually. You might want to consult a dictionary.
And while you're at it, an encyclopedia of philosophy as well. If you do, you might actually learn how your 19th-century epistemology has fallen on hard times.
But I'm not holding my breath, Bunck, because basically, you're a pseudo-intellectual. All form and no content. |
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was it Madalyn Murray O'Hair herself who conferred your degree upon you? |
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"All form and no content."
I notice you didn't answer any of my questions.
How is belief in an afterlife, in "ancestors looking down from Heaven," different from belief in ghosts and goblins? How is believing in the power of prayer different from believing in the power of broken mirrors or black cats? How is believing in the power of a horseshoe different from believing in the power of a cross? |
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I said consult a dictionary, moron. Do so and get back to me. |
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I notice you didn't answer any of my questions.
"Yes I did"
How is belief in an afterlife, in "ancestors looking down from Heaven," different from belief in ghosts and goblins? How is believing in the power of prayer different from believing in the power of broken mirrors or black cats? How is believing in the power of a horseshoe different from believing in the power of a cross? |
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"How is belief in an afterlife, in "ancestors looking down from Heaven," different from belief in ghosts and goblins? How is believing in the power of prayer different from believing in the power of broken mirrors or black cats? How is believing in the power of a horseshoe different from believing in the power of a cross?"
Belief in the supernatural can be mere superstition...if it is not Christianity that one believes in. The cross doesn't have power, but the Man who hung on it does. Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand. |
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and so we're done for now.
I'll check back tomorrow morning to see if you grew any balls. |
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He needs some preliminary treatment. But I stongly suspect he's not game. |
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"Belief in the supernatural can be mere superstition...if it is not Christianity that one believes in."
Ah, so you're saying that every OTHER religion is superstition, but YOURS isn't. That's not very convincing; everybody who has a religion or superstition believes that.
I notice you've fled the discussion over at "Climate Change Debate on Hold," http://townhall.com/blog/g/674a1c30-6444-43b5-b97f-e1b8257 3ed10 |
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"Doesn't everybody believe that about their own particular brand of superstition?"
Of course, thats what we keep saying about AGW. And for the same reason, don't impose your belief on me. |
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The Founders would take me over you ANY day. |
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to my 4:17 post..I meant there are a list of
sins in the bible that are NOT acceptable to God.
However having said are now acceptable by mistake, I could also have corrected it by saying Mz Townsend is now telling us that God has to get with the modern program and accept
whatever any sinner does because after all God is love and their ain't now consequences either now or in the hereafter. |
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There was a Baptist pastor that used to debate Madlyn OHair regularly. He never convinced her that God is, was and always will be the One True Living God. She'd always have some snarky comeback, akin to yours..but he'd just grin and say something to the effect that not to worry Madlyn, if you don't believe here and now, you will one day and it will be too late.
So mock if you will, Mr. Munck but you too will
find out that God is real, and I hope it's not too late for you.
What I find interesting is those like you who
say you don't believe are very interested in mocking those who do, and really get upset when
we publicly acknowledge the God you say you don't believe in. You and your ilk want to bring out the tar and feathers because you are offended, (a minority of offended I might add).
So how can you be offended by someone you don't believe exists? Why should it bother you if believers do publicly acknowledge Him if you don't believe He exists? Instead you an your ilk are on a hunt to erase all vestiges of our judeo Christian heritage..of a God you say you don't believe exists. I say, Baloney..you and your ilk do believe you just HATE God because He's got rules and you don't want Him to be the boss of ME! |
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"Christianity vs. Liberalism
Over two millenia the Christian Church has had to deal with a major threat at any given time. Once it was paganism, then Arianism, then Islam (we are still dealing with this one today), then it had to stand firm during the enlightenment, then Marxism (still found in the Demoncratic Party today). But the late great Francis Schaeffer who was the second greatest Christian Apologost & Philosopher (C.S. Lewis came in first)noted before he died in 1984 that the greatest threat to the Church in the future would be "Statism" which is also a term used by Mark Levin in his book "Liberty & Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto". The Church leaders in this country need to wake up and start attacking liberalism as being unchristian and incompatible with the Christian Faith and even going so far as to excommunicate those who refuse to give up their liberalism. You can be a faithful liberal or you can be a faithful Christian, but you can never be both. The liberals at least know that their greatest enemy is The Church, it is time for the Church to wake up and know that their greatest enemy is liberalism."
Me- Yes, it would really be horrible if people actually starting thinking for themselves...
I'd love to see the Catholic loons start excommunicating people who don't agree with their silly dogma... Their churches will be even emptier than they are now...
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"In a match up between God and Obama, Obama wins with these people. And the Republicans believe they might have a chance?"
Me- Well, to start with, I can prove Obama actually exists, unlike your Invisible Sky Pixie.
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"Two peas in a pod.
Senator Kerry's stand on abortion is a public flouting of Church teachings. ACatholic who publicly goes against the teaching of the Church should not of himself as a good Catholic. Kerry should have known better then to queue up for communion. He didn't.
Many Catholics today (Kerry, Townsend) don't understand why they can't be publicly against Church teachings and privatly good Catholics. This most often comes up with regard to abortion when Catholics claim to be "personally opposed" to abortion but insist they must make a difference between what they believe as individuals and what they do as politicians. But how can a politician legislate in favor of something he or she "personally" believes to be an abomination?
Kerry and Townsend. Two peas in a pod."
Me- Well, it is hard to be in sync with all the teachings when they won't even tell you what they all are. Heck, I went to Catholic schools for 12 years, and never realized all the absolutely crazy-as-batshite stuff that's in the Bible or official Catholic Dogma or some of the insane stuff the Catholic Church has done throughout its history.
Sorry, the Church made itself look silly with its grandstand play against Kerry. Only the third time a major political party has nominated a Catholic, and his own church turns on him.
(I don't think that really hurt Kerry all that much. His ineffective response to the Swift-boaters is what did him in.)
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"Where would it be, you ask? In a much better place. "Smaller and purer", to quote B16.
For far too long the Church of Rome in America has been plagued by "Episcopalianizers": pseudo-Anglican apostates like you. Let them leave and join TEC on the road to hell."
Me- Wow, so your God sends people to hell for belonging to the 'wrong' religion... and you are perfectly good with that?
You know, I don't believe in Hell or any of that nonsense, but a couple of questions for those who do...
1) Why do you think an infinite punishment for a finite crime is just?
2) How can you truly enjoy paradise knowing people you care about are going to be in Hell for not living up to your standards?
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The official beliefs, teachings, and positions of the Catholic Church are available for any member of the faith to study. Both the catechism, the code of canon law, and encyclicals are easily accessed, especially on the internet.
Many Catholics who claim not to know are lazy Catholics. They have ample time to read the sports page but no free time to read the catechism. Others are rebellious Catholics who prefer to justify their scandal by claiming confusion. They either know the truth or prefer not to know. They believe that their claim of confusion ameliorates their sin.
For those faithful Catholics that are truly confused and in need of guidance, and I know that there are many of you, I encourage you to study the catechism. This should be your primary source of information, not your pastor. Then, I encourage you to engage your fellow parishioners and your pastor. When you hear something that doesn’t sound correct, you will always be able to justify your belief by referring to the catechism. |
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"Cicero: The Founders would take me over you ANY day."
What do you think of Thomas Jefferson's belief that homosexuals should be castrated?
And that's just for starters.
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Nice article Meridith. Even though I can understand Ms. Townsend's point of view as well.
Repsecting one anothers beliefs, but coming together for common interests is a good approach to solving problems.
I see the Pope has actually been using Obama's ideas and apporachs himself.
And the Pope has the upmost respect for the President:
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/88968495/Getty-Images-New s
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"Many Catholics who claim not to know are lazy Catholics. They have ample time to read the sports page but no free time to read the catechism. Others are rebellious Catholics who prefer to justify their scandal by claiming confusion. They either know the truth or prefer not to know. They believe that their claim of confusion ameliorates their sin."
Me- SOrry, guy, the only "sin" I see here is that the Catholic Church KNOWINGLY covered up pedophile priests by moving them from one parish to another for decades, where they would just re-offend. Now that's a SCANDAL.
WDS- For those faithful Catholics that are truly confused and in need of guidance, and I know that there are many of you, I encourage you to study the catechism. This should be your primary source of information, not your pastor. Then, I encourage you to engage your fellow parishioners and your pastor. When you hear something that doesn’t sound correct, you will always be able to justify your belief by referring to the catechism.
Me- Actually, I consider the following. I'm not perfect, but here's a list of things I've never done.
Burned a witch
Tortured a Heretic
Encouraged the Slave Trade
Collaborated with the Nazis
Hid a Pedophile Priest
Started a Crusade.
Discouraged scientific advancement
But the Catholic Church as done all those things. So maybe these jerkwads need to be coming to me for moral and spiritual guidence...
"It's not the parts of the Bible I don't understand that bothers me, it's the parts I understand perfectly well"- Mark Twain.
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"Me- Wow, so your God sends people to hell for belonging to the 'wrong' religion... and you are perfectly good with that?"
Not necessarily. As St. Augustine said, some of those who are outside of the Church are actually inside, and vice versa. But purposeful rejection of God receives its due reward, and TEC (as opposed to orthodox Anglican bodies) are engaged in precisely that.
"You know, I don't believe in Hell or any of that nonsense, but a couple of questions for those who do..."
Well, we don't believe in the schoolboy philosophy known as atheism. So there it is.
"1) Why do you think an infinite punishment for a finite crime is just?
2) How can you truly enjoy paradise knowing people you care about are going to be in Hell for not living up to your standards?"
My view of hell is nuanced, and therefore likely too difficult for you to understand. It is also Orthododx, and not Western, and therefore something you likely know nothing about. It is by no means evident to me that hell is "infinite". (I believe you mean "everlasting", since we're talking about time, not space.) It it by no means evident to me that hell is about "punishment" per se. It could very well be more like a self-imposed imprisonment. And it is by no means evident to me what the final resolution of all things will be by the time I enter paradise, if I do. God, in my view, is merciful, but he does not allow us to escape the consequences of our actions.
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Looked up the definition of "superstition" yet? |
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Cicero is more about assertion than argument. it is the way of those SSPX/Opus Dei types. they insist on their authority--their right to snicker, on the one side, and condemn, on the other--without giving any good reason. it is amusing that a hocus pocus catholic like him would insist that the Founders would ride liberal rationalists like me out on a rail. but it speaks to the historic sense of these clowns, their magical thinking and their self-insistent foot-stamping.
it is fun to insult and bust chops. but at some point, you also have to give reasons. you have to articulate a worldview. i've never seen that from Cicero, really. just the lazy notion that he's right, that he is on the side of the angels. i would pay admission to see these clowns at their moment of reckoning, preparing to meet the heavenly host, only to be revealed as the groveling fools they are. |
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i don't do nuance--especially on the hereafter, where it is all speculative anyhow. |
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Your posts neither offend nor infuriate. And, I seriously doubt whether your venom affects anyone.
My posts are not consumption for angry hate-filled individuals.
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i honor their morally objective, rationalist, natural right tradition--not stuck in time, but modified by another 250 years of experience.
you? you're a hocus pocus Catholic, and the founders had no use for them. they would much prefer Catholics like me--who put America before the Church and possess the republic virtue of thinking for themselves. |
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"Looked up the definition of "superstition" yet?"
Yeah. It shows a picture of the Pope. |
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i had no ideas you boys down there were so prim. don't forget to dab the edges of your mouth when you are sanctimoniously (and hypocritically) denouncing people for their venom. |
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who was it that said the Pope is the little toe of the body of Christ? what i prefer about the Catholic faith is that, unlike Protestant denominations, it does not rely upon an "invisible church." everything is there, physical, available to the eye--reflecting a deeper spiritual reality, perhaps, but in the world even so.
when the Calvinists argued for "the invisible Church," they opened a Pandora's Box that spelled the end of Christian relevance. |
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enough from me for now. i hear Mrs. PL rattling around in the kitchen. |
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"Cicero is more about assertion than argument. it is the way of those SSPX/Opus Dei types."
This from the guy whom I've chased out of more than one comments box discussion, the most recently of which happened only about 10 days or so ago.
This from the guy who I've beaten like a bongo drum on the issues of American political theory and Christian theology. . .
which I am about to do again.
(Stay tuned, folsk.) |
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C- Not necessarily. As St. Augustine said, some of those who are outside of the Church are actually inside, and vice versa. But purposeful rejection of God receives its due reward, and TEC (as opposed to orthodox Anglican bodies) are engaged in precisely that.
Me- SO was the Catholic Church doing God's work when it was bending over and sodomizing those altar boys, or when they were burning those witches. I'll admit, the Episcopalians have their faults, but you don't hear about that sort of nonsense....
C-Well, we don't believe in the schoolboy philosophy known as atheism. So there it is.
Me- I wasn't aware that atheism was a "philosophy." I consider it more an acceptence of the world as it is.
If anything is truly illogicial and ludicrous, it is the Judeo-Christian notion of a God. Come on, this Cosmic being creates an infinite universe, and is worried that people on some spec of a planet are kissing his butt every Sunday? It sounds like he's pretty neurotic... or the people who made him up are...
C- My view of hell is nuanced, and therefore likely too difficult for you to understand. It is also Orthododx, and not Western, and therefore something you likely know nothing about. It is by no means evident to me that hell is "infinite". (I believe you mean "everlasting", since we're talking about time, not space.) It it by no means evident to me that hell is about "punishment" per se. It could very well be more like a self-imposed imprisonment. And it is by no means evident to me what the final resolution of all things will be by the time I enter paradise, if I do. God, in my view, is merciful, but he does not allow us to escape the consequences of our actions.
Me- Actually, you make him sound like a psychotic monster... Come on, he is going to punish you for all time for a sin you did once and didn't repent? And I'm not even talking serious sins, I'm talking about adultery or something like that...
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Lets see I have never done the following either:Burned a witch
Tortured a Heretic
Encouraged the Slave Trade
Collaborated with the Nazis
Hid a Pedophile Priest
Started a Crusade.
Discouraged scientific advancement
You lump all the bad that came from the people that have the belief in God,even with the murder of tiller, I can't relate to killing another.In your eyes all on my side believe the same way on everything. People like you and munck accuse me and others of jamming our religion down your throats or trying to get you to believe the way I do, while you try to do the exact same thing from your point, I have not seen a witch burned lately. You have a problem about religion, about God I get that, but why does my belief get you so upset?If I believe in Heaven and you don't what does that do to you? Munck calls in superstition I call it faith. If I read the Bible you say it is fairy tales,if you read ancient history could that be a fairy tale too? Just take it this way I don't care if you belive what I believe, you should feel the same, my belief in my God doesn't infringe on your right to not believe. |
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Adolf Hitler burns Ann Frank once for being Jewish, and he is "evil".
God burns Ann Frank for all eternity for not accepting Jesus as her savior. He is considered "good". |
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[[Cicero 11:31 AM
"Looked up the definition of "superstition" yet?"
Yeah. It shows a picture of the Pope.]]
Tsk. Once again, wit substituted for argument. I'm sure you're pleased with yourself.
We, however, think you're an idiot. And a craven one at that.
You know exactly where I'm going with my challenge to you to look up the definition of superstition, don't you Bunck? And you've read enough of my posts now to know as well that I'm fairly well-read in theology and the philosophy of religion. It's a road down which you're not about to go, is it?
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[[My "Nuanced" understanding of Hell
Adolf Hitler burns Ann Frank once for being Jewish, and he is "evil".
God burns Ann Frank for all eternity for not accepting Jesus as her savior. He is considered "good".]]
No doubt it is. Your understanding of Christian theology is about as advanced as your understanding of history.
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BSC- You lump all the bad that came from the people that have the belief in God,even with the murder of tiller, I can't relate to killing another.In your eyes all on my side believe the same way on everything. People like you and munck accuse me and others of jamming our religion down your throats or trying to get you to believe the way I do, while you try to do the exact same thing from your point, I have not seen a witch burned lately. You have a problem about religion, about God I get that, but why does my belief get you so upset?If I believe in Heaven and you don't what does that do to you? Munck calls in superstition I call it faith. If I read the Bible you say it is fairy tales,if you read ancient history could that be a fairy tale too? Just take it this way I don't care if you belive what I believe, you should feel the same, my belief in my God doesn't infringe on your right to not believe.
Me- Your belief gets me upset because it holds the rest of us back. let's take the burning of witches. I think we can all agree that there never were any witches to burn to start with. (Oh, maybe Sarah Stupid's pastor thinks there are, but let's leave that to the side for the moment.) But there is was, in the Bible. Thou shall not suffer a witch to live. Your infalliable God put that in there, even though there weren't any. And over the centuries, thousands of women were hanged, burned, tortured, drowned on the belief that they were witches. Then finally, rational intelligent men concluded- Hey, there ARE no witches. Never were.
Now, usually, with a colossal foul up like that, you shouldn't have any credibility after that. But you guys keep insisting the rest of the Bible is spot on! And you'd damned well better let us make policies on it about abortion or gay marriage. |
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[[i honor their morally objective, rationalist, natural right tradition--not stuck in time, but modified by another 250 years of experience.
you? you're a hocus pocus Catholic, and the founders had no use for them. they would much prefer Catholics like me--who put America before the Church and possess the republic virtue of thinking for themselves.]]
So, this is an example of the kind of "argumentation" to which you say I should aspire? Aside from the fact that you more or less dodged my question about Jefferson, you implicitly admit that they would have indeed ridden you out of town on a rail, as their "morally objective, rationalist, natural right tradition" needed to be "modified by another 250 years of experience."
So, do you concede that they would have ridden you out of town on a rail?
Not quite sure what "hocus pocus Catholic" is. You being the resident expert on the Catholic faith here, perhaps you can explain.
Another question, when you refer to the "republic (sic) virtue of thinking for themselves", what do you mean, exactly? What does republicanism have to do with "thinking for oneself?" |
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Get thee to a library. Seriously. |
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1)I have a degree in history, what do you have, stupid?
2) Point out where I am wrong...
Jews don't accept Jesus. You only get into heaven if you accept Jesus into your heart. Otherwise you are going to Hell. (Heck, the Catholic Church even did away with "Limbo", which is where all the supposedly good heathens went to.) Sorry, man, I can point out chapter and verse in teh Bible where it says exactly that! And you think that they are going there if they are in the wrong churches...
So obviously, Ann Frank wasn't going to find Jesus at the Bergen Belsen concentration camp... where the Nazis were wearing big Belt buckles that said "Gott mitt Uns" when they were throwing people into the ovens. (So why didn't God stop that if he had no problem with it?)
So by your philosophy, she went to Hell... can't see you weasel your way out of that one. |
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"Get thee to a library. Seriously."
Me- when you actually refute a point I made, I'll get back to you...
Of course, you guys never do. You just threaten people with hellfire (which honestly, to a free-thinking, makes you all look like clowns with big shoes.) and quote some old dead guy like Augustine on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. |
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My beliefs don't hold you back, you hold such deep a hostility because of the loss of your parents that all the good the church does doesn't wash with you cause your parents died, that holds you back, God was uncaring about leaving your Mom to raise the family, your Mom suffered greatly from her illness,I get that life is not fair, you look at things differently, mostly negatively towards any and all of my beliefs, in my attitude towards my life my family, and that is fine too, I am the one that is happy with my wife, my family, my faith, my place, I'm the lucky one because there is not one thing I would want to change, my life is perfect, boy that is a great feeling. |
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You must not have learned much, however, as evidenced by the little litany of sins of the Catholic Church you keep harping on here. Any historian worth his salt would understand something of the complexity of these matters, and would have not put the case nearly as bluntly as you have.
The reason you do so, however, is two-fold: 1) you're not an exceptionally bright individual to begin with; and 2) your anger prevents you from looking at all the factual material in a dispassionate matter. ("Anger dulls the intellect." St. John Cassian). You might be able to mitigate the effects of the former to some extent if you could simply rectify the latter.
As for your sophomoric attempt to get me to answer the little conundrum you've thought up about the Jews and salvation, well, that's partly why I urge you to get to a library. You're asking the wrong person (an *Orthodox* Christian) the wrong questions. I've given you a brief indication above about how I view this matter, but you seem intent on forcing me back into a Western mode of thinking. Sorry, it won't do. And I'm not going to waste my time trying to talk to someone who has absolutely no clue as to what he is talking about. |
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Sorry. I tend not to proof my posts before I post them. Bad habit. |
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"You have a degree in history, do you?
You must not have learned much, however, as evidenced by the little litany of sins of the Catholic Church you keep harping on here. Any historian worth his salt would understand something of the complexity of these matters, and would have not put the case nearly as bluntly as you have."
Me- There's nothing "complex" at all. They murdered millions of people for petty things. Whenever someone says "complex" or "nuanced" they are just trying to slather a whole bunch of manure over common sense.
C- The reason you do so, however, is two-fold: 1) you're not an exceptionally bright individual to begin with;
Me- Hey, guy, instead of repeating that PROVE IT! Prove what I got wrong. Go ahead. Prove your Invisible Sky Pixie actually exists. I double dog dare you! I mean, seriously, "well...well...you're stupid" doesn't work on the play bround, much less here. If I got something SERIOUSLY wrong, please point it out. Of course, since it's all made up bull shiite, there really are no "right" answers, are there?
C - and 2) your anger prevents you from looking at all the factual material in a dispassionate matter. ("Anger dulls the intellect." St. John Cassian). You might be able to mitigate the effects of the former to some extent if you could simply rectify the latter.
Me- Why? I should be angry, and I am. These bastards have screwed up so many people's lives. So I am happy to make them and the stupid sheep like yourselves that follow them object of ridicule... and I enjoy the hell out of it.
Churches are about one thing- supplying the otherwise worthless people who run them with power, money and sex.
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C- As for your sophomoric attempt to get me to answer the little conundrum you've thought up about the Jews and salvation, well, that's partly why I urge you to get to a library. You're asking the wrong person (an *Orthodox* Christian) the wrong questions.
Me- Oh, I'm sorry, you belong to that OTHER backward-@ss Dark Ages Church. Oh, pardon me.
C- I've given you a brief indication above about how I view this matter, but you seem intent on forcing me back into a Western mode of thinking. Sorry, it won't do. And I'm not going to waste my time trying to talk to someone who has absolutely no clue as to what he is talking about.
Me- Yeah, I can see why you'd want to avoid the question, because it does create a problem for you guys. If your invisible Sky Pixie lets people into heaven for just being innnocent and good, that would me, heck, what do you need the church for. No more altar boys to molest. No more big churches...
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Axe - My beliefs don't hold you back, you hold such deep a hostility because of the loss of your parents that all the good the church does doesn't wash with you cause your parents died, that holds you back, God was uncaring about leaving your Mom to raise the family, your Mom suffered greatly from her illness,I get that life is not fair, you look at things differently, mostly negatively towards any and all of my beliefs, in my attitude towards my life my family, and that is fine too, I am the one that is happy with my wife, my family, my faith, my place, I'm the lucky one because there is not one thing I would want to change, my life is perfect, boy that is a great feeling.
Me- No, man, I'm totally good with the loss of my parents. People die. It happens.
What I have no use for is BS artists trying to exploit it by saying, "Well, just pray for her to get better and she will." and she dies "Well, God had to have had a reason." One of the old vicious nuns had the nerve to say that at my mom's wake. I did decide, pretty much that day, I had no use for any religion, and I've never looked back, other than to mock the stupid people who still beleive.
And the VERY little good the church has done throughout history doesn't excuse its evil. It's like praising Hitler for the Autobahn. Well, uh, yeah, but he also started a war that killed 70 million people! Oh, with the full support of your "Good" church, I might add.
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republican virtue combines a free-speech mentality to the idea that there is objective moral truth.
also, never claimed to be the resident expert on the Catholic faith. Just a semi-practicing, semi-faithful Catholic. I think i have even said that i am Catholic and not Christian, as the latter is too demanding a discipline. Lots of Christianists--no Christians.
and like i said, if you want to play the "ride them out on a rail" game, you read what the Founders had to say about Romanists and Papists, right?
i am saying, as i have said all along, that wisdom draws from its store both old and new. Guys like Jefferson in particular would have been open to the idea that gays should not be castrated. but we are largely products of our time, which is why those arguments about TJ being a slaveholder or Lincoln being a racial separatist are stupid--just one generation clucking and wagging its finger at another.
i think i am a better frigging conservative than you are--and you are a better conservative than most of the guys around here (which isn't saying much). |
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I have to laugh at all of the Catholics, ie liberals, on here with nuanced faith. The Bible is clear about how one should live, which sins to avoid, what will happen after death, and how to live in eternity with Christ. It is not open to interpretation because it is the divine word of God. Bunck wants to know if we believe in an invisible church? Christ said wherever people are gathered in his name. He built his Church on a rock, not the shifting sands. No building is needed, invisible or otherwise, to be a Christian. Oh, and PL, how can you claim to be a Catholic but not a Christian? Do you think Catholics do not believe in Christ? What a maroon.
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. [14] For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Bunck and PL won't find it, that's for sure.
And for Axe, let me answer these questions:
1) Why do you think an infinite punishment for a finite crime is just?
Because Christ shed his blood for our sins. Believe in him, repent your sin, and be baptized, and your "finite crime" will be forgiven. If one does not repent, then why should one be surprised at punishment? Did't he know he was committing a crime? Yes, he did.
2) How can you truly enjoy paradise knowing people you care about are going to be in Hell for not living up to your standards?
The people I care about, if they do not seek forgiveness in Christ, will be going to Hell because they did not live up to Christ's standards. It is my duty as a good Christian to steer them to Christ's word during their lives. God gave us free will, and it is up to them to seek the narrow gate.
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Cicero - You do realize that Munck posts here under a variety of "handles," don't you?
Whenever one is laid low, another shows up.
If you think about it, he doesn't really exist at all - sort of a superstition of his own making and for his own amusement.
Probably even uses more than one IP address to avoid detection by the managers of the site. Clever. And, alone. |
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"You do realize that Munck posts here under a variety of "handles," don't you?"
I have never published a single comment or message anywhere under any name other than "Bob Munck" since the ARPANet got so crowded that "rgm" was no longer a unique identifier, sometime around 1978. It is my True Name in both the Amazon and Vinge sense.
"Probably even uses more than one IP address"
Actually, that one's pretty likely, since I have both DSL and cable modem internet feeds. The load-balancing router would select one or the other, and they show different IP addresses as assigned by Earthlink or Comcast. However, I am always signed on as Bob Munck. I've probably shown a bunch of different IP addresses recently, since I've mostly been in Europe.
What are you basing your accusation on, Diane? |
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IABC-And for Axe, let me answer these questions:
1) Why do you think an infinite punishment for a finite crime is just?
Because Christ shed his blood for our sins. Believe in him, repent your sin, and be baptized, and your "finite crime" will be forgiven. If one does not repent, then why should one be surprised at punishment? Did't he know he was committing a crime? Yes, he did.
me- Well, I guess I see being tortured for all eternity for stepping out on the wife on a business trip to be a bit.... harsh. And just because some loon got crucified 2000 years ago (maybe) doesn't make it less harsh or cruel.
Frankly, I wonder why you guys make such a big deal about the whole crucifixion thing. Lots of people got Crucified back in the day. But what you are saying is that this eternal being decided to be a mortal for 30 years or so, before going back to being an eternal being, and that gives him the right to punish non-believers for all eternity. Martyr complex much?
IABC- 2) How can you truly enjoy paradise knowing people you care about are going to be in Hell for not living up to your standards?
The people I care about, if they do not seek forgiveness in Christ, will be going to Hell because they did not live up to Christ's standards. It is my duty as a good Christian to steer them to Christ's word during their lives. God gave us free will, and it is up to them to seek the narrow gate.
Me- Okay, you did all you could, and they still turned out to be, let's say, gay (because that always drives you nutters right up the flew). But they are still your son, brother, friend, and you are totally good with them burning in Hell for all eternity for what God made them?
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like i said, chump, living the discipline of Christian life is more than i can do. i am bad at turning my cheek, walking the extra mile, giving up everything i have and following him. attending Mass, going to Confession--THAT I can do.
for you Christianists, salvation is reducible to accepting Jesus or going to hell. sorry. my soul is too rational for such nonsense. you can believe whatever foolishness you want. but, of course, that make you the moron, not me.. |
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"You only get into heaven if you accept Jesus into your heart. Otherwise you are going to Hell."
You only get into heaven if Jesus died for you. Your version is evangelical mumbo-jumbo.
Patriotic Liberal (that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one), you don't have a clue what Calvinists believe and why. |
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Cicero is right, Axe
"You only get into heaven if you accept Jesus into your heart. Otherwise you are going to Hell."
You only get into heaven if Jesus died for you. Your version is evangelical mumbo-jumbo.
Me- What version is that. My version is this.
No God
No Heaven
No Hell
No Jesus
You die and that's it, so you'd better enjoy the time you have. |
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like i said, chump, living the discipline of Christian life is more than i can do. i am bad at turning my cheek, walking the extra mile, giving up everything i have and following him. attending Mass, going to Confession--THAT I can do.
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What's with the chump verbage? If that's the way you feel about christian life...so be it. They why do you care what other people believe or whether they do or not? |
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Your version of what Christians teach. I even quoted it. You're not paying attention.
"No God
No Heaven
No Hell
No Jesus"
Hmm...sounds like a John Lennon song. |
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like i said, i am not esp. good at turning the cheek. Itsa called me "a maroon." returning the courtesy. not to mention the immodesty of his claims--which are common enough, but still outlandish and silly.
Andrea: i understand Calvinism just fine. there. now we are done hurling assertions at each other. |
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May I ask how you came to such a fine understanding of Calvinism? |
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When she uses the man of little faith, Obama, as an example for the Pope to emulate. Yes, the Prez is of little Christian faith. 'Ye shall know them by their works'. Delusive Obama promotes late term abortions and signed a bill to allow a blotched aborted live birth to just suffer and die. How sad and sick is that? Townsend is so beguiled and seduced by Obamas feel good, smooth talking words, that remind the clan of their beloved John Kennedy, they have exhaulted the Prez above the Pope! How sad and mindless! What say ye Catholics? |
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As an Irish Catholic, I admired JFK but with each !of present kennedys' sex and vote fraud scandal that admiration of the kennedy family has diminished.
Still even teddy K. is a "saint" compared to the muslim bisexual FRAUD bo! |
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I agree , joe was a bootleging nazi sympathizer .and jfk should have been courtmartialed for his mishap on the pt boat and if not for daddys political pull would have been . Spin works wonders . |
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We can argue all day about the tenets of the Catholic Church, about whether the American people do or do not agree with every one of them.
That really isn't the point.
Obama goes to Notre Dame and tells the head that the two of them can come to some sort of accomodation. In other words, When Obama suggests, the University can behold the wisdom and agree that Obama could be right and abortion might be right.
This is the same attitude, the arrogant Obama took to Rome.
The Pope is head of a church that for generations has said abortion is wrong.
But then, we have to understand that the brilliant, charming, crackpot fraud is so wise that the church can surely find it has been wrong all these year.
Kennedy Townsend agrees with Obama that he is god and smarter than any pope, any church, even Christ himself.
This Newsweek article is a stunning show of arrogance and stupidity. |
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I can not understand why the populus is start struck over Obama, what has he accomplished in his career since his State Senato job, he did nothing in the US Senate he did put together the greatest fraud in US History. He reminds me of the Pied Piper playing his flute and every liberal dances to his tune. He did create the worlds largest debt or country is hanging on a string, so now he decide the heat is getting to great in the USA so he runs around the world to different countries trying desperatly to create some thing, but these folk are not dumb as our liberal populus and they reject his plans so he accomplishes nothing Now he is back here tauting his stimulus plan and how great it is and what it is doing, his following applauds the messiah and says it is correct , its the populus faualt, but wait we have a new project Cap & Trad this will create jobs jobs, yep just like the stimulus he says hurry up and past it berffore the sky falls. Congress starts to cut deals, but some smart folk do not accept his plan, others that do will probably be replaced in 2010 if the populus will complain. |
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Pat- "The Pope is head of a church that for generations has said abortion is wrong."
That same church said for generations that the earth is the center of the universe. They imprisoned Galileo and burned Giordano Bruno for saying otherwise.
That same church said that "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." and for centuries, burned them.... Ooops. There weren't any witches after all.
That same church said that women shouldn't get painkillers for childbirth... Because it says in the Bible that was woman's punishment for listening to the Talking Snake. Okay, except now we know there never was a talking snake.
So, yeah, even though it says in the Bible that
"If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. 23 But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life," (Exodus 21- The New Advent Catholic Translation)
So essentially, according to the BIBLE a fetus wasn't equal to an adult human being.
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Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. |
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Pat Lib as well as many other libs try and link their heritage to Thomas Jefferson to give themselves some sort of ego boost.
TJ was no liberal. Just because he was suspicious of corporations and Liberals despise corporations, does not a liberal Jefferson make. TJ was a plantation owner, slave owner, and fought for religious freedom. He believed in states rights and limited federal government. He was THE FATHER of American Exceptionalism which Pat Lib and his buds refute and renownce at every opportunity. Add to that he believed in God.
So you "progressives' that try to hith your cart to the TJ horse are yet again disingenuous. And we thought the lefties only revised presidential history as it relates to Ronald Reagan...
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"in the liberal tradition
republican virtue combines a free-speech mentality to the idea that there is objective moral truth."
OK, fair enough. I just wanted to make it clear that republicanism isn't about free speech per so. However, early American republicans would probably say we've pushed that principle too far today.
"also, never claimed to be the resident expert on the Catholic faith. Just a semi-practicing, semi-faithful Catholic."
Whatever. What do you mean by "hocus pocus Catholic"? And have you figured out yet that I'm not in communion with the Church of Rome?
"I think i have even said that i am Catholic and not Christian, as the latter is too demanding a discipline. Lots of Christianists--no Christians."
You really must stop quoting that idiot Andrew Sullivan. There is no such thing as "Christianism", just Chrisitianty. And the Roman Catholic Church is in fact a Christian church. Open a history book. Or ask the Pope.
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"and like i said, if you want to play the "ride them out on a rail" game, you read what the Founders had to say about Romanists and Papists, right?"
Yeah, they shared the typical Protestant antipathy to Rome that was then current, and strangely enough, I might have agreed with them. Even though I am no longer a Protestant, I do in fact accept the principle that there should be no state Church, something the Rome of that day would have rejected. But I also share with them, whereas you don't, their wariness of big government.
"i am saying, as i have said all along, that wisdom draws from its store both old and new. Guys like Jefferson in particular would have been open to the idea that gays should not be castrated."
Huh? He said just the opposite.
"but we are largely products of our time, which is why those arguments about TJ being a slaveholder or Lincoln being a racial separatist are stupid--just one generation clucking and wagging its finger at another."
OK, so, for the second time: do you concede they would have run you out of town on a rail?
"i think i am a better frigging conservative than you are--and you are a better conservative than most of the guys around here (which isn't saying much)."
Well, there's a novel claim. Why don't you start calling yourself the Patriotic Conservative, then? I'll start calling myself Che Guevara.
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and the dull axe, there is no such thing as ultimate justice.
If that is what you believe also, than join them in their nonsense.
I prefer to believe that every human being ultimately gets what they deserve. That is mercy if they plead for it on the Cross of Christ. If they do not seek mercy through Christ, they will receive justice without mercy.
Of course, it they are like the munckey man and the dull axe, when faced with perfect justice they will plead ignorance and who among us can dispute that they are very ignorant. |
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has serious problems differentiating between the "general" and the "specific".
despite his dullness, even he should be able to understand that it was individuals committing the sins he attributes to "the Church".
What do you think, is gene the dull axe deliberately choosing evil or is he just as ignorant as a "dull" axe can be? |
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Because with every rave and rant, your ignorance shines through all the more brightly.
Some people are afraid of rational discussions regarding the Christian religion. Bunck, for instance. Others are simply incapable of them. You are clearly one.
This blog entry and comments box exchange are rapidly falling off into the Townhall abyss, and will be quickly forgotten. I'm tempted to provide the URL of a theological discussion board I frquent under another "handle", as active threads stay at the top of the discussion board. What gives me pause about it is that it would probably be just about as much a waste of time trying to reason with you there as it has been here. Not only does the nature of your challenges show that you have absolutely no clue when it comes to theology, epistemology, and history, but the rage you express shows that you are incapable of dispassionate discourse. You are, in short, what we call an "intellectual derelect and emotional cripple", and really, about the only thing we can do in your case is marvel from afar. |
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Townsend should take a good look at American history for the last eighty years or so. She might see what the Kennedy family has done to our country, starting with Joe Kennedy.
The only difference between Kennedy and the Irish mobsters in Chicago is that The Mafia killed the Irish gangsters in Chicago, because they didn't play ball. Joe Kennedy was one of the "go along to get along" crowd on the east coast and part of the problem.
Joe was bad enough, but the mess left by his sons and grandsons over the years will continue costing our country forever. |
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what are you, orthodox? or sspx? actually, i guess sspx is back in communion with rome. maybe you're coptic. hocus pocus stands. not that its a bad thing..
i don't like big government. but whether govt is big or small, it is inherently inefficient. it is just that smaller government is less able to deal with what arises from the appetites and avarice of men.
TJ was open to the idea that subsequent generations would accumulate knowledge and insights unavailable to him. that's what i meant. even in the moral space, much less the scientific space, TJ believed in a kind of rational progress. am i wrong about that?
true conservatives understand the fragility of civilized order. they acknowledge the ubiquity of sin. they do not believe human beings are particularly equal. they respect the hard won wisdom of the ages. i am the conservative around here. these clowns are radicals--more right-wing populists than true conservatives. and you, then, must be Che.
Christianist stands. too bad you don't like it. there is an ideological and barbaric strain which is Christianist.
i am aware that Roman Catholicism is a Christian church. in fact, i think the Roman church is the center of Christian faith, with the other denominations in the periphery. but that wasn't my point in distinguishing between Catholic, which i am, and Christian, which i am not. not only me--no one in these parts is a Christian. i respect the term and will not squander on the likes of you.
there you go. i'm getting tired of your insults, puke.
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"what are you, Orthodox?"
Yes. I guess you weren't paying attention. See above.
"hocus pocus stands. not that its a bad thing.."
You still haven't told us what it means. Can you please try to focus?
"it is just that smaller government is less able to deal with what arises from the appetites and avarice of men."
Uh, huh. Government plays God. So we see Mr. Caeden was right, don't we?
"TJ was open to the idea that subsequent generations would accumulate knowledge and insights unavailable to him. that's what i meant. even in the moral space, much less the scientific space, TJ believed in a kind of rational progress. am i wrong about that?"
My question to you is, for the third or fourth time now, do you concede that TJ and others would have ridden you out of town on a rail?
"Christianist stands. too bad you don't like it."
Doesn't matter whether or not I like it. What matters is whether or not it's a nonsensical term. I say it is. You might as well be referring to a "dentistist." |
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"i am aware that Roman Catholicism is a Christian church.in fact, i think the Roman church is the center of Christian faith. . ."
Funny. You said above you were a Catholic but not a Christian. Then again, this is simply reflective of the mental chaos that characterizes most of your comments here at TH.
"with the other denominations in the periphery. but that wasn't my point in distinguishing between Catholic, which i am, and Christian, which i am not. not only me--no one in these parts is a Christian. i respect the term and will not squander on the likes of you."
As is this one. Synapses firing every which-way. You just really don't know what it is you want to say, do you? Poor fellow.
"there you go. i'm getting tired of your insults, puke."
LOL! So we see, once again, that my assessment of you that I gave on the related thread is correct. Go have a look.
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try to stay up with me. the problem is not that i'm all over the place--the problem is your self-insistence. maybe you should worry about your own lack of humility rather than mine.
I was draw a distinction between the discipline of being a Christian and the discipline of being a Catholic. should not be hard to understand. there is of course overlap in the sense that Catholics are "Christian" in the conventional sense, but it still should not be hard to understand.
hocus pocus is a pejorative. in fact, i rather like that aspect--the high church aspect. not that i particularly believe it.
as for being ridden out on a rail by a crowd of Jeffersons, it would depend. if they knew i was from the future, absolutely not. they would see me in continuity with their Enlightenment thinking. if i was just randomly inserted among them and i just spewed my thinking on gay marriage or whatever, yes, they would run me out. so? in your case it would be the reverse. they'd yawn at your presence, unless they knew you were from the future--THEN they'd run you out.
if you think humanity divides into two soteriological types, the saved and the damned, you're a Christianist. as they say, there are two kinds of human beings: those who think there are two kinds of human beings and those who don't. Christianists--aka barbarians--belong in the first camp. they are not as bad as Islamists, but only because they have been proximate to Western civ and western principles. the difference between them and Islamists is one of degree. the difference between liberals and Islamists is one of type.
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"If that is what you believe also, than join them in their nonsense.
I prefer to believe that every human being ultimately gets what they deserve. That is mercy if they plead for it on the Cross of Christ. If they do not seek mercy through Christ, they will receive justice without mercy.
Of course, it they are like the munckey man and the dull axe, when faced with perfect justice they will plead ignorance and who among us can dispute that they are very ignorant."
Me- Actually, I'll say this once again, this description honestly makes your Invisible Sky Pixie sound AWFULLY insecure.
Let's leave aside folks like myself who heard the BS line, read the bible and ultimately rejected it. (won't speak for Munck here, he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself.)
What about some Hindu or Bhuddist or tribesman living in some remote rainforest... He's never heard of Jesus. How can he please his case before the Cross.
If there is a God (and part of me hopes there is, so long as it isn't the Biblical God) I would want him to judge me on my life and works, not how often I kissed his @ss. Really, nobody ever respects a brownnoser. |
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"Axe has serious problems differentiating between the "general" and the "specific".
despite his dullness, even he should be able to understand that it was individuals committing the sins he attributes to "the Church".
What do you think, is gene the dull axe deliberately choosing evil or is he just as ignorant as a "dull" axe can be?"
Me- Actually, I have no problem differentiating at all. There is individual responsibility, and there is command responsibility.
As a Sergeant in the Army, I was responsible for the conduct of the men under my supervision, as my CO and his CO were responsible for mine.
I don't care if it's the individual priest sodomizing an altar boy or a Pope ordering a genocidal crusade, the entire institution is ulitmately responsible if it didn't do enough to put a stop to it. And if God exists and does nothing about it, he holds some responsibility, too.
Or to put it another way, when Father O'Grady (the subject of the film "Deliver us from Evil")raped one child after another, it was on him. But the institution became responsible when it elected to move him from one parish to another. And if God didn't vaporize him with a bolt of lightening (he killed people in the bible for FAR LESS), then he must approve, too. Right?
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"Keep raving and ranting, Axe.
Because with every rave and rant, your ignorance shines through all the more brightly.
Some people are afraid of rational discussions regarding the Christian religion. Bunck, for instance. Others are simply incapable of them. You are clearly one.
This blog entry and comments box exchange are rapidly falling off into the Townhall abyss, and will be quickly forgotten. I'm tempted to provide the URL of a theological discussion board I frquent under another "handle", as active threads stay at the top of the discussion board. What gives me pause about it is that it would probably be just about as much a waste of time trying to reason with you there as it has been here. Not only does the nature of your challenges show that you have absolutely no clue when it comes to theology, epistemology, and history, but the rage you express shows that you are incapable of dispassionate discourse. You are, in short, what we call an "intellectual derelect and emotional cripple", and really, about the only thing we can do in your case is marvel from afar."
Me- Why should I be "dispassionate" about a church that has committed so many evils? Should I be "dispassoinate" about Hitler? Or Stalin? No. There are things that are CLEARLY wrong, and deserve condemnation. Your Church is one of them.
You have not disputed ONE CLAIM I've made. Not one. Ever. You just do the whole "You just don't get it." meme. I admit, I don't operate in your world, thankfully. Your world is full of comprimises and contradictions and leaps of faith and ignoring logic... things I just can't be bothered with.
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The only person more full of himself than this Pathologic Liberal is Obummer himself.
Cicero allows himself to get swept into these nonsensical, turbo-twisted, hysterically "hypothetical" anecdotes of this confused Catholic.
Absolutely incredulous, this space-sucking sycophant.
And, to be sure-----her confusion is very much at one with the fact that she's "all over the place.
Nahhhhhh-----she's not a "classical liberal, they're too stuck on the idea of 'organic' growth. But better still, she's certainly not aligned with, contemporary Liberalism----too affected by ideas of, 'multiculturalism'.
Nooooooooo, she's a version of Liberalism that's not even been thought of yet. Well, you know, 'cuz Liberals love that age old practice of reinventing; themselves, accounts of history, political ideals----you know, the true life flavor-of-the-day kind of stuff.
It's so, tres chic. And there's no better way to confuse others than to first be self-confused. |
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that's right fool. as i told you before, call me a "paleo-liberal," if you need a term. As I recall, you whined that you never heard that expression before. I am definitely a Keynesian.
if it is impossible to hold to the rational soul of classical liberalism while accepting the data of another 250 years of historic experience, please let me know. else, cut your whining. |
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This schmoe is nothing but persistently negative.
And dedicated to his own predictable nonsense.
And in such negativity, there are revealed simple truths:
"...I admit, I don't operate in your world, thankfully. Your world is full of comprimises and contradictions and leaps of faith and ignoring logic... things I just can't be bothered with."
Cicero might be, in quiet resolve, relieved. Relieved that he lives in such a world that this schmuck turns away from. Indeed, that is true representation (and personification) of, "free will".
"We live by faith, not by sight"
2 Corinthians 5:7
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but i do appreciate your putting me in the same class as "Obummer." and he sure is a bummer, to you clowns at least. Not to America. Not to Americans. but to a certain category of Americans--definitely a bummer.
also, that would be "Post-Keynesian." Religious beliefs are "informed agnostic." Like I said, semi-practicing Catholic. In all, a liberal. Not classical, like Milton Friedman; not contemporary, like Maya Angelou. just finding that sweetspot mentioned in the Gospel about pulling both old and new from one's store. if you can't get your peabrain around it, or rather, don't want to bother--why, it must be false!!! i swear, that's how you idiots think. |
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One day Obama, the illegal imposter is going to have to prove his eligibility because the people will want him out of office for destroying this country and thier lives, and their cries for his removal will not go unheard.
What the ... ? Wikipedia says Obama born in Kenya!
Wikipedia just can't seem to make up its mind about where President Barack Obama was born. The free, online encyclopedia has been displaying at least two countries the commander in chief may have been born in - the United States and Kenya.
Find out the latest right now at
WND.com.http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103810 |
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And the hits, they just keep coming.
As predictable as she is Pathologic, this Liberal does not disappoint.
I humbly beg to differ, Obummer-tool.
What you hear, "...else, cut your whining", is not whining, it is that which you have no understanding of, the Truth.
Though you have no understanding of it, your confused curiosity keeps you coming back in want for more.
"Paleo-Liberal"........LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, the first time you have elicited from me a welcomed laugh. Well, other than the usual one which accompanies recognition of what a fool you really are. |
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***Cicero might be, in quiet resolve, relieved. Relieved that he lives in such a world that this schmuck turns away from. Indeed, that is true representation (and personification) of, "free will".***
i think Spinoza said that the rock hurtling through the air thinks that it chooses where it is going to land. In any event, i'll take my refuge in virtue--which is its own reason--and the rational soul.
"quiet resolve." yeesh. what a big old sillyass phony.. |
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Now there's a comforting role for the truly confused; the Left's religious version of, "almost-pregnant". |
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kind of a play on paleo-conservative, whose POV i rather admire. but i don't mind the cackle of fools who don't know the joke is on them. there is a liberalism neither classical nor contemporary, but which is some of both and other things besides. I have the right to that liberalism, even if you, in your lip-smacking self-satisfaction, think that i do not. the mere fact you have not heard of or thought of or are even capable of conceiving of does not mean it is false. not by a long shot. |
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Spinoza had you at, "rehashed stoicism". |
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no, clown, it means i go to Mass a couple times a month, and not every week, like I am supposed to. It means I have not been to Confession (or Reconciliation) in quite some time. It means my family says grace before our meals, but sometimes we forget. It means those kind of things. I apologize for my imperfections, but then, I don't claim any special knowledge. I don't claim to be saved. You aren't going to hear me usurp the wisdom of the ages--even if you fools do it routinely. |
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my guess is that Spinoza was trying to make a point. of course, there are fools in this world who only veer from the literal when it suits their purpose. |
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I look forward to your response, if you have one. Until then, and by 'shrieker's leave, i am going home. it has been a busy workday and i am up to here with rockheads.. |
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Paleo-Patholgic Liberal writes,
"It means I have not been to Confession (or Reconciliation) in quite some time."
Now, now, there. I'm no expert, however, it sure sounds to me as if you just exercised confession:
"I apologize for my imperfections, but then, I don't claim any special knowledge."
Listen up, you finger-waggin' weenie, I've never been heard to fulfill your pathetic little spew here:
"I don't claim to be saved. You aren't going to hear me usurp the wisdom of the ages--even if you fools do it routinely."
You can emotively rant endlessly for all I care. The FACT is----this quote does not fit me----not remotely. You've never heard me make any such comments. Matter of fact, you confessed above to NO special knowledge. But----in reality, that's what you do mostly around these parts, either directly of through inference.
Just another example of your well developed confusion.
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is on right now, LIVE, from St.Louis, for Gawdsakes! Put the lout in the ground, dammit, and get your HD on ESPN! |
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Thanks for the head's up.
Hey---I thought of you this weekend while climbing one of our "Fourteeners". The region has had more rain this year than we've had since late 1800's. The wildflowers were nothing short of incredible.
Had you ever seen anything similar while spending time with your family in those mountains near Mammoth?
I recall well the explosion of wildflowers in Anzo-Borrego Desert State Park (east of San Diego) 12 years ago. That was a huge treat.
Enjoy the homerun madness. I sure enjoyed reading about Albert Pujols. |
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I know the drama-queen, hyperbolic comments of Paleo-Pathologic Liberal did not escape you:
"...You aren't going to hear me usurp the wisdom of the ages--even if you fools do it routinely."
Yeah---name just one time I "usurped the wisdom of the ages" you half-wit. She's the gift that keeps on giving. |
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nothing but an axe to grind...
This schmoe is nothing but persistently negative.
And dedicated to his own predictable nonsense.
And in such negativity, there are revealed simple truths:
"...I admit, I don't operate in your world, thankfully. Your world is full of comprimises and contradictions and leaps of faith and ignoring logic... things I just can't be bothered with."
Cicero might be, in quiet resolve, relieved. Relieved that he lives in such a world that this schmuck turns away from. Indeed, that is true representation (and personification) of, "free will".
"We live by faith, not by sight"
2 Corinthians 5:7
Me- You live in a world of delusion, that if you live in enough self-denial and hate enough of the right people (gays, people who have abortions, people who don't believe the horse shiiit you believe in) your God will reward you with a heaven where you'll be reunited with all your childhood dogs...
But I ask a question... Why doesn't your God slaughter me for saying all the terrible things I say? I mean, right, he slaughtered people in the BIble for a lot less... Are you saying he's impotent?
So, go ahead and keep worshiping God On A Stick, and I'll keep laughing at you.
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So, go ahead and keep worshiping God On A Stick, and I'll keep laughing at you.
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"He who laughs last, laughs best"! |
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I don't live in front of a computer. Nor is this board the only one I frequent. But I hope you got a good night's sleep.
"try to stay up with me."
LOL. Yes, Mr. Tortoise..
"I was draw a distinction between the discipline of being a Christian and the discipline of being a Catholic. should not be hard to understand. there is of course overlap in the sense that Catholics are "Christian" in the conventional sense, but it still should not be hard to understand."
Ah, I get it now. But it still doesn't do, you see. "Christian" can be just as much descriptive of a belief as it is of manner of piety. That's why most Christians - well, informed ones anyway - will apply the term to themselves even though they know they can never measure up to the ideal. Only one man did that.
"hocus pocus is a pejorative. in fact, i rather like that aspect--the high church aspect. not that i particularly believe it."
So, it's a *pejorative* meaning "high church, but you *like* that aspect nonetheless, although you don't *believe* it. I see.
And you wonder why I think your thought processes are chaotic. |
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you laugh all you want, loser.
Matter of fact, the more you laugh, the better I feel, the stronger I am.
So please, keep laughing.
signed,
Clariton D
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"as for being ridden out on a rail by a crowd of Jeffersons, it would depend. if they knew i was from the future, absolutely not. they would see me in continuity with their Enlightenment thinking. if i was just randomly inserted among them and i just spewed my thinking on gay marriage or whatever, yes, they would run me out. so? in your case it would be the reverse. they'd yawn at your presence, unless they knew you were from the future--THEN they'd run you out."
More chaos. Let me just state to you the obvious, which is based on everything we know about their views and everything we know about yours: they would have run you out of town on a rail. Your form of liberalism is not theirs. They would have regarded your views as a virus.
"if you think humanity divides into two soteriological types, the saved and the damned, you're a Christianist. as they say, there are two kinds of human beings: those who think there are two kinds of human beings and those who don't. Christianists--aka barbarians--belong in the first camp. they are not as bad as Islamists, but only because they have been proximate to Western civ and western principles. the difference between them and Islamists is one of degree. the difference between liberals and Islamists is one of type."
There is no such thing as a "Christianist", just as there is no such thing as an "Islamist". These are terms made up willy nilly by people with agendas, and you are blithely following your fellow "cafeteria Catholic" Andrew Sullivan in this regard. There is only the religion known as *Christianity, which has always taught and always will teach the distinction between sheep and goats. If you have an issue with that, then your argument is with the religion's founder, not with me.
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It's impossible to refute a non-argument.
First, finally get a clue as to what it is you're talking about. Second, lose the anger. Then maybe we'll talk. |
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it is the *classical* liberalism of the Founders which we paleoconservatives seek to conserve. That's why they're our guys and not yours. You, however, believe you have "evolved" over the 250-year period you reference, thinking you're only completing their worldview when in fact you've departed from it almost entirely. So it's really devolution and not evolution in your case, something you tacitly admit now that you FINALLY ACKNOWLEDGE that they would have run you out of town on a rail. |
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'Shrieker writes at 11:32: ***Yeah---name just one time I "usurped the wisdom of the ages" you half-wit. She's the gift that keeps on giving.***
The last thing i wanted to do was wade through shrieker's old posts. They are implacable, silly--to paraphrase him, weenieish. It reminds me of what my sister said one time, talking about her son (my nephew): "I've got better things to do with my time than try to outsmart a kid who has nothing to do with his time than try to outsmart me." (I might add, just so you don't get the wrong impression, that she was wrong about that)
Fortunately, on this very thread, at 8:06, 'shrieker wrote: ***Cicero might be, in quiet resolve, relieved. Relieved that he lives in such a world that this schmuck turns away from. Indeed, that is true representation (and personification) of, "free will".
"We live by faith, not by sight"
2 Corinthians 5:7 ***
In that passage, the Apostle basically stated that he does not know if it is preferable to be exiled from the body--as he prefers--or to live within it. But he argues that the truth about our lives in the body will be brought out in the law court of Christ.
I don't know if that is true. No one still living does. But the next passage in the same chapter, Paul goes at some length to show how God reconciles the world to Him--"not holding men's faults against them, and he has entrusted to us the news that they are reconciled."
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My guess is that in 'shrieker's silly and inconsequential mind, the passage involves a radical dichotomy between the saved and the damned. In reality, though, this part of the Apostle's second letter to Corinth reflects ambivalence about the world, the utter accessibility of salvation, and an upside-down view of living honorably.
I should note that in another thread around here, i touched on just this distinction between "faith" and "vision" in my inartful distinction between forest and trees.
But anyhow, i have given this buffoon enough time. You guys need to realize that there is a difference between complexity and confusion. My perspective tends towards complexity, not because I am confused, but because moral reality is complex, and a man of character, a man of principle, takes on the moral space as it is presented, not as an act of will (or belief or conviction or faith or whatever). The act of will comes in practicing the virtues--which are, after all, their own reason. Paul even says this when he articulates his topsy-turvy perspective on honorable living.
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who was the religion's founder again? i forget. was it Jesus? or Paul?
you seem obsessed with the notion that the term came from Andrew Sullivan. leaving him out of the equation, it is a fair term. it is fair because, as i outlined, there are people whose Christianity is toxic and inimical to the interests of true faith. they are only "Christian" because it was the religion in the vicinity. the psychology is the same--the psychology of the barbarian.
you write: "So, it's a *pejorative* meaning "high church, but you *like* that aspect nonetheless, although you don't *believe* it. I see.
And you wonder why I think your thought processes are chaotic."
That's pretty funny. it has nothing to do with chaos, though. it has to do with perspective. total perspective. the ability, as Emily told the Stage Manager in "Our Town," to really see life as one lives. it is the capacity of the poets and the saints, as the Stage Manager said.
now i really must run. and btw, your view on the founder's liberalism is static and ahistorical.
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by "total perspective," i mean, how would we live if we had that power that Qoheleth says is denied to us--the ability to consider time in its wholeness. suppose we could be like Emily, going back to her twelfth birthday--how would we live then? because the answer to that question is how we should live now.
this is where the wisdom of the ages comes in, as it augments perspective. of course, it can also be bastardized into stupidity and silliness.
we do not know what happens when we die, but the rational soul will prepare himself so that when the moment comes, he will not be a fool. |
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"who was the religion's fo | | | |