Friday, October 16, 2009
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Richard Dawkins: Creationists Don't Read Books
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Posted by:
Jillian Bandes at
12:37 PM
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If Dawkins is what you get out of evolution, sign me up with the creationists. From a recent interview about his new book, "The Greatest Show On Earth."
Salon: You say in the beginning of the book that you would like to convince people that creationism is not a feasible or a viable belief system, but you also make it clear that you're not a big fan of creationists.
Dawkins: That's putting it mildly, yes.
Salon: Doesn't that make it difficult for a creationist to read this book without feeling insulted? Won't that hurt your goal? Dawkins: No, I'm not really aiming it at creationists. I don't think they read books anyway, except for one book. Oh, and, Americans who voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin are unintelligent, but those who voted for Barack Obama are smart.
Salon: Do you also think there's a greater degree of anti-intellectualism in America compared to a lot of other countries? Dawkins: There does seem to be evidence of a divide in the United States between two cultures. It does seem to be a deeper divide, and maybe even a widening one, perhaps we don't see in European countries. There seems to be a divide between what shall we say -- the Sarah Palin voters and the Barack Obama voters.
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does not sound better with a British accent.
Every once in awhile this man will debate a writer or scientist about ID or faith and gets his butt handed to him. Dawkins whoile argument always comes down do "because I said so". THIS is the state of the intellectual argument from his side? We don't know where natural laws come from, so the rest of us are just to wait and be quiet until they discover the info?
Oh brother.... |
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"Oh, and, Americans who voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin are unintelligent"
Are you asserting that everyone who voted for McCain/Palin is a creationist? That's a pretty serious charge, you know; creationism is and extremist, fringe position: the belief that the Earth and the entire universe are only 6000 years old. |
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Are you insinuating that all creationists believe that the Earth and the entire universe are only 6000 years old? |
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that Dawkins feller done told Ben Stein that we'uns come from Outer Space. That settles it fer me. |
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Theres no definite time involved. Parables are
used to give an impression and to teach and most are not locked in concrete! Whatever, evolution or creation, both require imagination and faith.
I prefer to believe in a higher power, outside of the carnal mind and the example and Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ, as compared to the 'nothing' evolving into a chicken egg, or any other baby animal developing, with out parents to feed and nourish them?! So the concept of what comes first the chicken or the egg has to be 'neither' based on it's 'own' power! Amen |
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"Are you insinuating that all creationists believe that the Earth and the entire universe are only 6000 years old?"
That's my understanding of the meaning of the term, yes. Intelligent design advocates admit to an older Earth and universe, but they are fairly vehement in proclaiming that they are NOT creationists. Do you have a different definition of the word? |
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I'll bet he's referring to the Bible. Took me awhile to puzzle that out, but I think that's what he means. The Christian Bible, not the Dumbocrat one, you know, Das Kapital. |
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He's a sky pixie. Or some kind of pixie, anyway.
The Dawkins Delusion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERyh9YYEis
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Bob beat me to it, but as you can see from his answer, he's an ignoramus. |
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the least curious people tend to be devoutly religious, all religions. When you believe in this 'thing' called 'god', it makes curiosity unnecessary. |
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Jay-Z;
P-Diddy;
Rosie O'Donnell;
http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaSupporters.htm
Note to Mr. Dawson, where great mysteries are present, it is possible to accept the miracles of faith and see the change of evolution.
What a thin-shouldered man. Pretentious and comfortable in his views of life and others. Need to get out more Sir. Turn it over Richard; new thought, new you.
GFY
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"When you believe in this 'thing' called 'god', it makes curiosity unnecessary."
You are SUCH a moron. |
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"I'll bet he's referring to the Bible. Took me awhile to puzzle that out, but I think that's what he means. The Christian Bible, not the Dumbocrat one, you know, Das Kapital."
There is grandeur in this view of life...
Even your comment is a beautiful example of modern fitness. As is miss vicky's:
"I prefer to believe in a higher power, outside of the carnal mind and the example and Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ, as compared to the 'nothing' evolving into a chicken egg, or any other baby animal developing, with out parents to feed and nourish them?! So the concept of what comes first the chicken or the egg has to be 'neither' based on it's 'own' power! Amen"
The absolute ignorance of elementary evolutionary theory showcases the deep seeded hate of academics so prevalent on the right today.
Personally, I enjoy basking in this ignorance and observing the slow and inevitable consequences. |
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You did detect the sarcasm, right? And, really, hate? More like, 'scorn.' |
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Everyone believes that their god is right and somebody else's is a fairytale. So what? Dawkins is in the business to sell books first-then ideology. Being an athiest I have read some, he makes the same arguments that Hitchens and the rest make, you can only sell a product so many ways.
Since Dawkins is a student of science let me argue it this way. Many primitive tribes all over the world have one thing in common, The name of the tribe in their language means "The People" and everyone not of that tribe is usually not considered a person. That gives them the ability to Rape,Murder and then Steal all their property. We used to do it ourselves with slavery. By "WE" I mean Americans.
Look, this is perhaps why Dawkins says that Conservatives don't read books, sure thats a foolish thing to say, but look at who he identifies with- his tribe are the Liberals!
Liberals use many of the same arguments as primitives to regulate (slavery) us. They call us stupid, sub-human creatures who don't believe their culture. We need to be led they say, and they use government (force) to do it. Liberals have no understanding of Economics, they just plunder (taxes) and share the spoils of plunder to the other members of their tribe (re-distribution).
Are we like them? No. We are not as primitive as the esteemed Mr. Dawkins.
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don't seem to understand biology - like when life begins. Actually, the evolutionists hate cellular biology in particular.
these science lovers are scared to death of nuclear power - you know, the kind that subs have been running on for years?
maybe they understand weather. Nah. They don't get cycles and patterns.
Ironically, they are the most religious people of faith outside of Muslems.
I enjoy basking in their vanity and observing the slow and inevitable madness that envelopes them. |
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Have you have gotten past the binary code logic that the book of Genesis' 6 days could be analogis to 6 billion years? I know its hard to step out of your box (and sad). But you should give it a try, you might learn something.
Ironic that many of the non-fiction bestsellers are ranked so high in sales are from Cons. Maybe they buy them to use as paperweights to keep down other paper they don't read?
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"Dawkins is right
the least curious people tend to be devoutly religious, all religions."
Interesting theory. You must live in a very small world. I have met far too many people that are the opposite. You should get out of superficial LA a little more.
Actually, Munck proves that someone that thinks its all pixiedust cannot open his mind to be curious enough to question everything. Ouch. Thats a profound truth.
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Now, now. We know that you're just an amoeba, Speed, and we can appreciate your position on biology. Perhaps through osmosis you might acquire a brain of sorts. Funny how the beginnings of life seems to have stalled out with you guys. |
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are you drunk already? Better tell your ma to cut back on the whiskey sours. |
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Always thinks everything is an opinion and cannot discern facts if she cannot believe its true.
Relativism is alive and well in the Idiocracy. Sponty, do you have your Snickers shirt on? |
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Empty posts seem to be your combined strong suit. Are you the same asshat? Of course, there is that little problem you clowns have with group think. One tiny brain among you is showing the wear. Give it rest, guys. |
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"the book of Genesis' 6 days could be analogis to 6 billion years?"
Sure, that's a possibility. But the ORDER in which things happen in genesis is all wrong. |
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Most of American religious beliefs require that the potential beliver take a "leqap of faith, " as the more modern Kierkegaard. Logic and reason is incompatible with faith. |
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Munck has a point. the order of things listed in the first chapter of Genesis stops any rational attempt to combine the two into what i call creavolution. Lights, the stars of heaven, the sun and moon, not made till the fourth day. somebody here said a day is equal to a billion years, so plants which rely on sun do so for a billion years. I don't think so, and besides that, man was made by God alone, and then he made the woman later. No, creation and evolution are forever separated, and those that would espouse intelligent design, via evolution do so, wrongly and badly.
Why is so dang hard to grasp, that the bible as it was translated contains in verse two an error.
It reads;
IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATE THE HEAVENS AND EARTH
AND THE EARTH WAS WITHOUT FORM AND VOID, AND DARKNESS was UPON THE FACE OF THE DEEP.
In the hebrew ther is no verb to be, but there is a verb to become. Look up in any king james Bible, you will see the first word was is reg. print meaning it comes from a translated word. the second word was is italasize, no word translated from, added to help the sense of the translation.
In the beginning god created the heavens and earth and the earth became woth out form and void. Something happened, I got my money on that war in heaven thing with lucifer, and the third of the angels. verse 3 begins the re-ordering the creation. So between vs.1 and vs.2 could be a couple billion years or more tied up in that litty bitty "and".
Appropiate time to read Job 38:1-7
Unfortunately we live in an age of indelible traditions. The church will not change, Science will refuse to see the church except through the lens as it saw it when it became of age. But true understanding comes only through the right dividing of scripture.
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"When you believe in this 'thing' called 'god', it makes curiosity unnecessary."
The self-proclaimed expert in religion, education, and curiosity, knows not whereof he speaks. In other words, he is somewhat lacking in intelligence.
According to the U. S. Department of Education, of the 7,000 degree granting colleges and universities in the U. S., over 800 of them are affiliated with religions such as Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Jewis, Protestant and Interdenominational. In addition, many non-affiliated colleges also offer courses and degrees in theology and philosophy.
Education is a search for more information. Some might make bold to refer to it as curiosity. One needs both God and curiosity. |
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" funny how science lovers don't seem to understand biology - like when life begins. Actually, the evolutionists hate cellular biology in particular."
Me- I don't see that we hate it. We just don't completely understand it yet. However, we don't accept that because we haven't quite solved THAT part of the puzzle yet means that by gosh, we need to turn to this 3000 year old book of fairy tales and ignore all the evidence it is wrong about everything else.
S - these science lovers are scared to death of nuclear power - you know, the kind that subs have been running on for years?
Me- Personally, I'm for expanding nuclear power. But we also have to be cautious. The fuel stays toxic for 10,000 years and an accident can render a region uninhabitable. (See also Chernobyl)
S - maybe they understand weather. Nah. They don't get cycles and patterns.
Me- There's a lot here we don't understand. But even if you don't beleive dumping millions of tons of carbon-dioxide into the atmosphere might have an effect, getting off of a energy source that is controlled by unstable dictators and has a limited supply MIGHT not be a BAD idea.
S -Ironically, they are the most religious people of faith outside of Muslems.
I enjoy basking in their vanity and observing the slow and inevitable madness that envelopes them.
Me- I'm sure you do, butyou both suffer from the same delusion. you've made up my mind, don't confuse you with facts. If science disproves the Bible, the Bible has no value. If science disproves global warming, that theory should be rejected.
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Munck Have you have gotten past the binary code logic that the book of Genesis' 6 days could be analogis[sic] to 6 billion years? I know its hard to step out of your box (and sad). But you should give it a try, you might learn something.
Ironic that many of the non-fiction bestsellers are ranked so high in sales are from Cons. Maybe they buy them to use as paperweights to keep down other paper they don't read?
Me- It only tells me that the definition of "non-fiction" is pretty loose. Sarah Palin tries to rewrite the disasterous campaign of 2008 as "not my fault" and tries to pass that off as non-fiction. (After her bible thumping pal of white supremists ghostwriter has a go at it.)
I write Science Fiction as a hobby, and I'd have a hard time topping that one.
But let's take your logic to its ultimate conclusion. That the God of the Bible actually has a six-billion year old plan to manipulate events on Sol-III (one of trillions of stars in the universe) to produce a race of monkey descendents that kind of look like him, so he can then proceed to torture ONE TRIBE of them for a thousand years.
But this is only to create a series of religions- Christianity, Islam, Judaism, that are so intolerant that they are willing to blow the others out of existence to get a place in heaven or 72 virgins in the afterlife...
Okay, you kind of see my problem here? If you have a being with such awesome power, why would he be so circumspect in acheiving his goals? Why would he even care? Yeah, burning the ants with a magnifying glass when you are ten years old might be interesting, but you are going to feel bad about the whole thing when you are thirty. |
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Still on that book of fairy tails. i can see why, if its not rightly divided it cannot be understood. but hang on to your prejudice, hang on to your dis-trust. The real test in life is to examine what people have said about God, and his word, and search the scriptures. it takes time, much like a scientific discovery does.
What i find curious in your post, while you answer, its more about deflection of what the other side isn't capable of. If additional information is offered, you answer from the previous point as though it was not there. just an observation. I am praying for you, to enjoy the great gentleness of life, in living. got to go, maint. on the concrete plant tomorrow. |
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Do any of you atheist morons ever consider that an Omnipotent Creator might be able to fast forward the time and space continuum so that what we see as billions of years old are actually quite new?
It makes more sense than believing everything existing in the universe randomly conjoining to exhibit information storing molecules of incredible complexity with the ability to defy entropy and reproduce, heal,love and self actualize! Does it not? |
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"But true understanding comes only through the right dividing of scripture."
Me- Right. Haven't you people been murdering each other for the last 2000 years over where the "right dividing" actually is? Don't we have people slaughtering and raping each other in places like the Balkans and Ireland over this very issue?
There have been over 100 different translations of the Bible in English alone. (A testement to how important our language is , I guess.)
I look at the bible as I look at any other work of fiction- people trying to use prose and poetry to understand their world. |
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Archtard- "A question for atheists Do any of you atheist morons ever consider that an Omnipotent Creator might be able to fast forward the time and space continuum so that what we see as billions of years old are actually quite new?
It makes more sense than believing everything existing in the universe randomly conjoining to exhibit information storing molecules of incredible complexity with the ability to defy entropy and reproduce, heal,love and self actualize! Does it not?
Me- You know what, Star Trek fans used to have these same questions about Q or any of the other God Surrogates that Roddenberry tried to toss into the mix. If you have all this power and importance, why do you care what the microbes think?
Consider your God. He makes life on Sol-III out of all the other planets in the universe. (how many are there? Do they have life?) He wants people to worship him (which I hate to say, sounds kind of needy). He manipulates evoluton for hundreds of millions of years. ("Damn, those Dinosaurs aren't looking anything like me OR building temples. Get me a f**king asteroid!") and then he FINALLY gets the species he wants, one that will worship him and stuff and sacrifice goats and the occassional child (like Jephthah in Judges 11:30). Except most of them end up worshiping the wrong gods (Zeus, Odin, Krishna, etc.) and the ones who do keep screwing up the translations and getting the wrong message.
Yeah, that makes infinitely more sense than "stuff happens".
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"creationism is and extremist, fringe position: the belief that the Earth and the entire universe are only 6000 years old."
The earth, the first thing created, is 6,000 years old, while the rest of the celestial bodies (sun, moon, stars, etc.), which were created after the earth, are several billion years old.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight -prove
Also, on dating the universe generally:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/features/billio ns-of-years |
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Aren't you the same one that beleives because of the number of bacteria in you body (count) that its what dominates your body?
We had a long post about this once where I attempted to educate you on how the body functions. It became quite clear you had no understanding of complex matters and a great need to simplify ideas.
Not sure how to have such discussion except to talk down. Like trying to explain Calculus to a 1st grader, one can only use addition and subtraction (and fingers and toes to count with).
But please, prove me wrong by answering Arch's Q from an earlier post. |
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As long as we're discussing Pixiedust, lets take it more into your 'expertise' and down to some molecular discussions.
Here is a different kind of pixiedust open for discussion to the idea of higher energy;
http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm
Pixiedust comes in many forms. Unfortunately most closed minded libs think its all about the bible. Separate Pixiedust man (god) from Nutterbutterism (religion).Scepty claim indirectly you are the most open minded type here. |
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Careful with that axe, Eugene writes: Friday, October, 16, 2009 11:46 PM
Arch tries to form a thought....
Archtard- "A question for atheists Do any of you atheist morons ever consider that an Omnipotent Creator might be able to fast forward the time and space continuum so that what we see as billions of years old are actually quite new?
It makes more sense than believing everything existing in the universe randomly conjoining to exhibit information storing molecules of incredible complexity with the ability to defy entropy and reproduce, heal,love and self actualize! Does it not?
Me- You know what, Star Trek fans used to have these same questions about Q or any of the other God Surrogates that Roddenberry tried to toss into the mix. If you have all this power and importance, why do you care what the microbes think?
Consider your God. He makes life on Sol-III out of all the other planets in the universe. (how many are there? Do they have life?) He wants people to worship him (which I hate to say, sounds kind of needy). He manipulates evoluton for hundreds of millions of years. ("Damn, those Dinosaurs aren't looking anything like me OR building temples. Get me a f**king asteroid!") and then he FINALLY gets the species he wants, one that will worship him and stuff and sacrifice goats and the occassional child (like Jephthah in Judges 11:30). Except most of them end up worshiping the wrong gods (Zeus, Odin, Krishna, etc.) and the ones who do keep screwing up the translations and getting the wrong message.
Yeah, that makes infinitely more sense than "stuff happens".
Arch says
Axe. You are a fking moron! If you want to believe in magic, then be my guest. Only an Omnipotent Creator makes any sense to a logical thinker! Tell us how you think everything in the universe came to be. Then prove it! |
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"The earth, the first thing created, is 6,000 years old, while the rest of the celestial bodies (sun, moon, stars, etc.), which were created after the earth, are several billion years old."
I don't see how anyone could argue with that kind of logic.
I love answers in genesis; it's like the entire site was written by Lewis Carroll. |
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Arch says
You have posted a great link that all atheists should consider!
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Bob Munck writes: Saturday, October, 17, 2009 1:23 AM
cavalier973 12:43 AM
"The earth, the first thing created, is 6,000 years old, while the rest of the celestial bodies (sun, moon, stars, etc.), which were created after the earth, are several billion years old."
I don't see how anyone could argue with that kind of logic.
I love answers in genesis; it's like the entire site was written by Lewis Carroll.
Arch says
Prove it wrong or shut your face Munck! |
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Congrats on using your favorite term again. Thought you kicked the habit, but the sweet temptation of it all came back at you. Maybe its time for a 12 step program instead of trying to help yourself?
Considering the giant hole at the bottom of your brain, and a general lack of critical thinking, it does no good to debate you. You deflect any meaningful conversation into asshats and "why not tell our leaders then" response.
While you think you are clever by changing your name every few months, Arch and others can remind you (quite easily) of your stupidity as Rachel et al of past posts.
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Ahh yes. Rachel! I still have dreams of sucking a big bruise on her neck!
It is all she is worth! |
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While Munck has the math brain (supposedly). For the rest, it is like explaining Calculus to someone that needs a calculator to figure out a tip (and then still needs help). |
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NOTW writes: Saturday, October, 17, 2009 1:50 AM
arch
While Munck has the math brain (supposedly). For the rest, it is like explaining Calculus to someone that needs a calculator to figure out a tip (and then still needs help).
Arch says
You are right. The rest are tools and idiots. Munck has no excuse other than he is evil.
He knows better and still remains steadfast in his ignorance. That is the definition of an insane evil. I believe Munck would genocide his own countrymen to gain for himself. He has no distinction between right and wrong. He is a self gratification addict beyond help.
I wonder if that is how he caught aids? |
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I can see good old Bob lying in the gurney with a flask of tubes feeding him his drug cocktail to combat his self imposed AIDS affliction.
I am sympathetic for the innocent that suffer the disease, but for those who have self inflicted the plague upon themselves by abhorrent behavior, Nah!!
I believe that is why Bob is an atheist. He figures that no God would make him suffer so! |
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I must retire for the evening. I am getting out of hand! Night all!!! |
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time is not a constant. It changes depending on velocity and gravity.
"I love answers in genesis; it's like the entire site was written by Lewis Carroll."
Any sort of belief system can be logical, as long as you accept the presuppositions.
For myself, the idea that the universe exclusively consists of matter and energy is non-falsifiable flapdoodle. Though supernatural forces cannot be evaluated by science, it does not follow that they do not exist. |
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Perhaps Munck is evil? Or just lacks a big picture aptitude (as the movie title, "not evil, just wrong")...Don't know, don't care. You are right that his world revolves around his thoughts, putting all around him into the same box of thought when they don't see it like him.
Enough contemplating libtards...off to contemplate 'David' in Firenze today instead. |
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The introduction to Genesis (and to the whole bible, Gen.1:1-2:3 ascribes everything to the living God. Creating, acting, moving, and speaking There is no room for evolution without a flat denial of Divine revelation. One must be true, the other false. All god's works pronounce "good" seven times.
Man starts from nothing He begins in helplessness ignorance and inexperience. All his works proceed on the principle of evolution. This principle is seen only in human affairs: from the hut to the palace, from the canoe to the oceanliner; from the spade and ploughshare to machines for drilling, reaping, and binding, and etc... But the birds build their nest today as in the beginning. The moment we pass the boundry line and enter the Divine sphere, no trace or vestige of evolution is seen. There is growth and development within, but no passing or change, or evolution out from one into another.
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The word "day" when used without any limitin words, may refer to a long or prolonged period: as the day of grace, the day of visitation, the day of salvation, the day of judgment, the day of the Lord, man's day. But when the word day is used with a numeral (cardinal or ordinal) as one, two, three,&c., or first, second or third, &c., "evening and morning" (Gen. 1) It is defined, limited, and restricted to an ordinary day of twenty four hours. The word day is never used for a year. Sometimes a corresponding number of days is used for a corresponding number of years, but in that case it is always sxpreely stated to be so used, as in Numbers 14:33,34. But even in these cases the word day means day, and the word year means years.... There is no scriptual warrent for arbitarily assuming this to be a general principle in the abscence of any statement to that effect.
Appendix 11, the Companion bible |
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axeman Aren't you the same one that beleives because of the number of bacteria in you body (count) that its what dominates your body?
Me- Uh, no, I don't think so. I think you have me confused with someone else.
NOTW- We had a long post about this once where I attempted to educate you on how the body functions. It became quite clear you had no understanding of complex matters and a great need to simplify ideas.
Me- Like I said, I don't think so. I'll admit, biology isn't my speciality, but you are skipping around my point. If God is eternal, omnipotent and omniscient, why would he care what we mere insects think or do? It really doesn't make a lick of sense.
NOTW- Not sure how to have such discussion except to talk down. Like trying to explain Calculus to a 1st grader, one can only use addition and subtraction (and fingers and toes to count with).
But please, prove me wrong by answering Arch's Q from an earlier post.
Me- I think I did answer that tard's question...However, I honestly doubt you could have a conversation with me and hold your own on any subject.
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All scriptual understanding comes from the right dividing, right understanding of what God said, when he Said it, to whom He said it to. Man's great great spiritual problem is the integrity of the Word. If he does not understand it, he cannot believe it. He flounders, studying what is, ignoring How it came to be. He then justify's what is not there, be they transitional species, be it primordial ooze, the original spark, or the father of all evolution, the single cell. No, greater gaps lay in man's reasoning, than are still contained in even the wrong dividing of scripture. Man mis-intreprets a word in versE two, the builds religous traditions on his error, giving way for science to remove itself from obligation to the Most High, and the wonders of his universe. I Cor. 1:21 FOR AFTER THAT IN THE WISDOM OF GOD THE WORLD BY WISDOM KNEW NOT GOD, IT PLEASED GOD BY THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING TO SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE. |
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die of terrible diseases!
"Bob Munck in the AIDS Gurney
I can see good old Bob lying in the gurney with a flask of tubes feeding him his drug cocktail to combat his self imposed AIDS affliction.
I am sympathetic for the innocent that suffer the disease, but for those who have self inflicted the plague upon themselves by abhorrent behavior, Nah!!I believe that is why Bob is an atheist. He figures that no God would make him suffer so!"
Me- Besides the fact that Bob is straight and has been in a monogomous relationship for decades, it really isn't very "Christian" of you to wish terrible things upon him because he isn't buying your weak arguments.
Not that I find either of them compelling, but Mike and Cav actually make a strong case for the religious point of view. They put together their thoughts in a reasoned manner. You, Allan Caeden and Dreadnuts can't think of anything more clever than assuming everyong who rejects your religion must be gay (like that's really a bad thing). Oh, yeah, and AIDS is God's punishment. So he's had to kill some hemophiliacs and transfusion patients and a few million Africans in the process, and some clever scientists might come up with drugs to keep them sodomites alive...
I sometimes wonder if some of you Fundies are atheists trying to make Christians look foolish.
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Mike - Still on that book of fairy tails[sic]. i can see why, if its not rightly divided it cannot be understood. but hang on to your prejudice, hang on to your dis-trust. The real test in life is to examine what people have said about God, and his word, and search the scriptures. it takes time, much like a scientific discovery does.
What i find curious in your post, while you answer, its more about deflection of what the other side isn't capable of. If additional information is offered, you answer from the previous point as though it was not there.
Me- As Mark Twain said, "It isn't the parts of the bible I don't understand that bothers me, it's the parts I understand perfectly well."
If you take the bible as iron clad truth, then you have to rejects hundreds of years of scientific discovery that contradicts it. Fossils prove we evolved from lower life forms, we were not all descended from a guy who was made in God's perfect image who then made the mistake of listening to a talking snake (SNICKER) about eating a fruit.
If you take the more progressive view that it's 'allegory' and 'metaphor' about the imperfection of man, you still have the other 80 books of the bible, MOST of which paint a very unflattering picture of a God who is needy, cruel, capricious and not really worthy of anyone's worship.
I go back to my Judges 11:30 challenge. God allows for Jephthah to murder his own daughter (something he previously declared a sin) as a sacrfice. Now, if he is omnipotent, why didn't he stop it? If he is omniscient, how could he not know this was going to be the result?
And sadly, your book of "Fairy Tales" is full of all sorts of acts of cruelty just like this. In fact, the Skeptic's Annotated bible has documented 1091 verses that are cruel of violent. (As opposed to the Koran, which only has a mere 520.)
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Archtard - Axe. You are a fking moron! If you want to believe in magic, then be my guest. Only an Omnipotent Creator makes any sense to a logical thinker! Tell us how you think everything in the universe came to be. Then prove it!
Me- Actually, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. The universe is full of a lot of imperfections... which would indicate that your "ominipotent creator" isn't anything of the sort.
You also make engage in the fallacy that because science hasn't found all the answers yet, we must therefore subscribe to pixie dust.... and promptly stop looking for answers...
But you don't answer my question. If you God is capable of creating such a universe, it strikes me that his demand for temples, contributions, tithes and sacrificing animals and the occassional child seems a bit, needy. Going back to poor Jephthah, what was the Invisible Sky Pixie accomplishing by making Jephthah slit his daughter's throat and then burn her body on an altar? |
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"All scriptual understanding comes from the right dividing, right understanding of what God said, when he Said it, to whom He said it to. Man's great great spiritual problem is the integrity of the Word. If he does not understand it, he cannot believe it. He flounders, studying what is, ignoring How it came to be. He then justify's what is not there, be they transitional species, be it primordial ooze, the original spark, or the father of all evolution, the single cell. No, greater gaps lay in man's reasoning, than are still contained in even the wrong dividing of scripture. Man mis-intreprets a word in versE two, the builds religous traditions on his error, giving way for science to remove itself from obligation to the Most High, and the wonders of his universe. I Cor. 1:21 FOR AFTER THAT IN THE WISDOM OF GOD THE WORLD BY WISDOM KNEW NOT GOD, IT PLEASED GOD BY THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING TO SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE."
Me- Wow, guy, has it occured to you that maybe YOU'RE the one dividing Scripture the wrong way? I'm not sure which church you belong to, but by your reasoning, 99% of Christians are getting it wrong. I've seen you go on anti-Catholic rants, but the fact is, MOST Christians are Catholics and Orthodox, not various flavors of protestants. |
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Which is the major problem- traditions dating from the Middle Ages have obscured the true meaning and intent of the Bible. I suspect Mike is a fellow Berachan (look it up), which means a study of the Bible in its original languages, the scholarship of which has improved greatly over the last 50 years or so. It reveals some rather surprising things that the established churches don't like, such as the ease of salvation, which is separated from behavior. Baptists can't have that. But someone up further said logic and science rejects faith. Really? Two words- dark matter. |
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Careful with that axe, Eugene writes: Saturday, October, 17, 2009 8:14 AM
Archtard
Me- Actually, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. The universe is full of a lot of imperfections... which would indicate that your "ominipotent creator" isn't anything of the sort.
Arch says
It is a perfect universe, finely tuned to sustain life, everything as God The Creator always intended. What could be more perfect than to Create everything just as you desire?
Damn Axe! You don't know much do you!
AXE writes:
You also make engage in the fallacy that because science hasn't found all the answers yet, we must therefore subscribe to pixie dust.... and promptly stop looking for answers...
Arch says
Wrong Axe. We do not stop looking for answers but why limit our possibilities by excluding the only valid answer. Man's tool of science is limited by his own limited brain power. We are bacteria compared to the intellect of God. There are myriads of things that are beyond human understanding and will never be known by any man by any science. Anything that happened before the Creation event is one such example. You did not know that did you Axe!
To your infant mind that may appear the case. We intelligent ones discern much higher. God does what he wants and we are powerless to affect that reality. If you don't like it then don't believe it. Just leave the rest of us in peace instead of making us bash your head in intellectually. You present no understanding. Just complaints that you were Created by someone much greater than yourself. Get used to it!! |
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Axe wrote:
But you don't answer my question. If your God is capable of creating such a universe, it strikes me that his demand for temples, contributions, tithes and sacrificing animals and the occassional child seems a bit, needy. Going back to poor Jephthah, what was the Invisible Sky Pixie accomplishing by making Jephthah slit his daughter's throat and then burn her body on an altar?
Arch says
To your infant mind that may appear the case. We intelligent ones discern much higher. God does what he wants and we are powerless to affect that reality. If you don't like it then don't believe it. Just leave the rest of us in peace instead of making us bash your head in intellectually. You present no understanding. Just complaints that you were Created by someone much greater than yourself. Get used to it!! |
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"We are bacteria compared to the intellect of God."
Actually if there were a god that encompassed the entire universe, he'd be incredibly stupid due to speed-of-light delays in his brain. |
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Arch- It is a perfect universe, finely tuned to sustain life, everything as God The Creator always intended. What could be more perfect than to Create everything just as you desire?
Me-Actually, most of the universe is hostile to life- vacuums, radiation, unbearable cold or heat. And where life exists, you have cancer, famines, droughts, plagues, parisitic infections... What a whacky sense of humor that "intelligent designer" must have.
Arch - We do not stop looking for answers but why limit our possibilities by excluding the only valid answer. Man's tool of science is limited by his own limited brain power. We are bacteria compared to the intellect of God. There are myriads of things that are beyond human understanding and will never be known by any man by any science. Anything that happened before the Creation event is one such example.
Me- Actually, scientists don't believe that there was anything before the "creation" event- that time came into being at the same time matter and energy did. In fact, we know that time itself is fluid now... that time slows with velocity, bends around black holes, etc. Bob would probalby be more qualified to go into detail than I would, though.
Arch- To your infant mind that may appear the case. ... God does what he wants and we are powerless to affect that reality. If you don't like it then don't believe it. Just leave the rest of us in peace instead of making us bash your head in intellectually. You present no understanding. Just complaints that you were Created by someone much greater than yourself.
Me- Well, yes, I was created by my parents, who together were greater than myself. (But they had the advantage of living in America before Republicans and corporations f**ked it up.) But I keep asking, ummmmm, exactly why did this omnipotent God want Jephthah to slaughter his daughter? Was he looking to inspire Iron Maiden 3000 years later? |
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Since he's game for any argument.
Bob Munck wrote Friday, 6:45 PM:
NOTW 4:52 PM said-->
"the book of Genesis' 6 days could be analogis to 6 billion years?"
"a possibility. But the ORDER in which things happen in genesis is all wrong."
The order in which we found it recorded now that thousands of years have transpired is strange to biased readers. If it's wrong at all, and you can't prove that.
We always suspect Genesis was related to the children of Abraham originally in oral form. Not in chapter and verse. So any number of reasons may account for what you find so egregious.
We'll only give you credit, Bob, for trusting first in yourself. Never in the Bible. For that you needn't ask pardon from a believer.
Just desist, if you can, from taking that bias of yours as the last word. You're like the bullfrog who blows himself up to ox-proportions. FUNNY! |
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"The order in which we found it recorded now that thousands of years have transpired is strange to biased readers. If it's wrong at all, and you can't prove that."
So you have no argument at all? You can't prove anything you say, and it has the added difficulty of being completely illogical.
"We always suspect Genesis was related to the children of Abraham originally in oral form."
God gives dictation? Doesn't he proofread?
"Not in chapter and verse. So any number of reasons may account for what you find so egregious."
That's true of the entire bible.
"Just desist, if you can, from taking that bias of yours as the last word."
In what way am I doing that? |
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. . . against the troll and the mealworm.
sceptyczny writes: Friday, 2:09 PM
"Dawkins is right the least curious people tend to be devoutly religious, all religions."
Well, that's a curious fabrication. Believers in Almighty God are sometimes uncurious & sometimes they aren't. Why Dawkins or you should now speak for other millions from that elitist POV, it's hard to say.
I just wonder if it isn't your pure hatred finding an easy outlet. Being devoutly religious, furthermore, is something you haven't any clue about. Aren't YOU curious about devotion and love of God? YOU'RE the one guilty of lacking curiosity.
Find out about it, don't act from feelings of elitism and false pride.
"When you believe in this 'thing' called 'god', it makes curiosity unnecessary."
Is that so? Try again another day to make that stick, Bozo. Today you flopped. |
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On the ToonHall roof,
Il Cretino, Axe-wipe Eugene.
"I write Science Fiction as a hobby, and I'd have a hard time topping that."
Well, good luck with your hobby, Cretino.
Dawkins writes science fiction all the time, and he's done well in this ungodly society of ours. These indeed are neo-pagan times. And, just asking; why capitalize science fiction? Isn't that fiction just ipso facto? I was a sci-fi reader back in the 50's arguably a golden age of the genre. I outgrew it.
Soon after I began reading the entire world of Catholic literature; which has nothing to do with fiction. I can give you long lists of the great works I perused over more than 50 years. (OK, I won't bother, Cretino Cornuto.)
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Again, Judges 11: does not say he slit her throat and burned her. The word in vs 40 LAMENT is the same hebrew word used in Judges 5:11 SHALL THEY REHEARSE. only two times this word is used in scripture. Each year they went to celebrate her committment, much like a nun. The word has the idea of attributing honor, not lament. But lament validates your point, but it is wrong, as a word or words must be intrepreted according to biblical usage. In Romans it says we are to be living sacrifices. I've restated these points, added understanding for the word lament, that it is not proper. I do not think the skeptics annotated Bible is the place I would try to document anything.
as to my opposistion, trust me, I have full understanding of disdain from organized religion. I have engaged in debates on the radio and in churches. but its a very simple read, to lay out the birth record in Matthew against the birth record in Luke, and a second grader could poke holes in the Christmas nativity scene, and modern story. In matthew the very night Joseph takes the baby and mom and heads toi Egypt, in Luke the wait 8 days have the lad circumcised, wait for mary's purification, go to the temple in Jerusalem. Something is wrong here. thes two records don't line up according to tradition. well tradition is wrong the word is right. They are not the same event, similar, yes, but not the same. the fact that the church as a whole has got it wrong, has no bearing on whether its true. The scriptures are true, traditions of men sold as the truth are some of the hardest chains on men's souls today. Matt. 15:9 BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. |
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That was very rapid.
"So you have no argument at all? You can't prove anything you say, and it has the added difficulty of being completely illogical."
The book of Genesis (at least it) did not come down to us as pure proof text; though hard-line Fundies persist in embarrassing themselves at it. It's mainly revelation of Creation's mysteries. Revealed by inspiration to a prophet, Moses. Your facetious line about God's dictation isn't funny.
An inspired prophet sees things by way of mysticism, not really chapter/verse. Yet, when his revelations were given to a larger population, written versions had to conform otherwise. No amenuensis is a mystic. But he does as best he can to record what he's told orally.
When we read His inspired Word, God rewards our FAITH. Criticism is for man and the frog like you, given to puffing himself up.
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Did you not read my post. I, a sky pixie said you are correct. The order eliminates any possibility of reconcilation between evolution and creation. Further in another post I said it was impossible to infer days as used in Genesis 1, as any other understanding except for a twenty four hour period.
I have read some of these reconcilation attempts by men strong in science, weak in scripture, thinking they are doing us and God a favor, and 50 years from now there will be a group that will make a tradition out of it. |
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You just try too hard to impress.
"Something is wrong here. the two records don't line up according to tradition. well tradition is wrong the word is right."
You simply assume Tradition has tried, but can't be faithful to the Word. You're mistaken.
Sacred Tradition, just as the CHURCH, founded by Our Holy Redeemer; AND SCRIPTURE itself; all come staunchly CERTIFED and true because the Holy Spirit abides with Christ's Church. Not with King James II or your Bible study classes.
"The fact that the church as a whole has got it wrong,----"
IS NO FACT,
it's only your mistaken opinion. You have NO authority to construct or parse any part of Scripture. Unless it's maybe a simple NARRATIVE; such as, "Joseph and Mary arrived in Bethlehem, city of David."
"The scriptures are true, traditions of men sold as the truth are some of the hardest chains on men's souls today."
You have no authority at all. The "men" from which Sacred Tradition comes down to us were Christian SAINTS; not Pharisees; about whom Jesus was warning, here: Matt. 15:9 "BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN."
He wasn't speaking about the early Fathers of His own Church. It was the tradition of Israel's false leaders Jesus spoke of. YOU are applying it to SACRED Tradition, which has its authority from God the Holy Spirit.
Catholics know NOTHING of "commandments of men."
We obey Christ's and our Almighty Father's commandments. As faithfully taught by the APOSTLES, (not a protestant.) Find it out for yourself. Mike. |
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I did not say anything about specific organizations, I made a point about the word, so I suggest you get your bible out, and lay those two records out side by side, and verify for all that what I am saying is wrong. There is more discepencies to those two records. The wise men went to a house, the shepards went to the manger. It is in that thing call the scripture. Get it out, and bring it. We can have us some fun. This is a relatively simple point to verify, that I am either nuts or tradition is. While your at it document the birthday of our Lord Jesus Christ, because after all if he is our Lord and we celebrate his birthday on the wrong day, would that not be de-meaning to him? |
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He found someone he can embarrass, a free-lance Bible scholar /
Mike the Bible- ****
"But true understanding comes only through the right dividing of scripture."
An out-of whack idea pushed first by Martin Luther, "Scripture and nothing but."
Yet that's not even in the Bible anywhere. Only Christ's Church was authorized to spread the Gospel. THAT is in Scripture, not what Mike pushes. Talk about not having "true understanding."
". . . you people been murdering each other for the last 2000 years over where the "right dividing" actually is? Don't we have people slaughtering and raping each other in places like the Balkans and Ireland over this very issue?"
No, Mr. Moron. The truth is nothing of that kind. Explain why you swallowed that atheist hook.
Raping and slaughtering are against the Will of God. Those who have sinned this way are on the way to hell. Likely right in front of YOU, Moron. We're commanded to LOVE, not slaughter, in the Catholic Church.
The sad thing is we're sinners who disobey; that's what YOU refer to. And who's the greatest sinner if not you, a shameless apostate! |
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AS TO DON'T RUSH ME MR. M
II Peter 1:20,21
KNOWING THIS FIRST, THAT NO PROPHECY OF THE SCRIPTE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTREPERTATION.
FOR THE PROPHECY CAME NOT IN OLD TIME BY THE WILL OF MEN: BUT HOLY MEN SPAKE AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
II Timothy 3:16,17
ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.
Hebrew 4:12
FOR THE WORD OF GOD IS QUICK AND POWERFUL, AND SHARPER THAN ANY TWOEDGED SWORD, PIERCING EVEN TO THE DIVIDING ASUNDER OF THE SOUL AND SPIRIT, AND OF THE JOINTS AND MARROW, AND IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART.
There is nothing mystical about revelation, God who is Spirit, communicates via the spirit, which is to be born-again, the promise of the father, to be endued with power from on high. See I cor 12:7-12 for the 9 manifestation of spirit.
God told Moses what to write. Moses wrote it. end of story. |
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"This is a relatively simple point to verify, that I am either nuts or tradition is."
Sir--Tradition is the testimony and teaching of holy men; within the SURE Church founded once by Jesus Christ. These holy men knew disciples personally who had known either Jesus or various of Jesus apostles and other followers.
You know nothing except what false ministers, strayed away from Christ's Holy Church of the apostles, taught you. HERETICAL Christians, preaching the gospel of men, not Christ. These turncoats comforted themselves in their false ministry by assuming the title of BIBLE SCHOLARS. They had no authority from the apostles to lead anybody. Nor to seemingly interpret any Scripture.
"While your at it document the birthday of our Lord Jesus Christ, because after all if he is our Lord and we celebrate his birthday on the wrong day, would that not be de-meaning to him?"
You're wrong. The Church has merely selected a day, since even with the Holy Spirit guiding the apostles, no certain date of Our Lord's birth is known.
The Church is entirely within her authority to pick any plausible date; she's given that authority by the Holy Spirit. We HONOR Jesus at His Nativity. Not "demean" Him.
What an absurd idea; and only for one single purpose: to discredit the Church.
The anti-catholic fringe is unlimited in its envy and malice toward Christ's True Church. May God be merciful to these lost sheep. |
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"Dawkins writes science fiction all the time, and he's done well in this ungodly society of ours. These indeed are neo-pagan times. And, just asking; why capitalize science fiction? Isn't that fiction just ipso facto? I was a sci-fi reader back in the 50's arguably a golden age of the genre. I outgrew it."
Me- I have a bad habit of sometimes capitalizing nouns. I think it's a residual German thing. Yes, 50's Science Fiction is great. (Most true fans despise the word "Sci-Fi". )
DN- Soon after I began reading the entire world of Catholic literature; which has nothing to do with fiction. I can give you long lists of the great works I perused over more than 50 years. (OK, I won't bother, Cretino Cornuto.)
Me- Oh, I think the Bible is the best work of fiction out there. Murder, rape, treachery talking snakes, people sacrificing their daughters to invisible sky pixies. It's a laugh riot...
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STOP IT, return to your revival tent.
Hebrew 4:12
FOR THE WORD OF GOD IS QUICK AND POWERFUL, AND SHARPER THAN ANY TWOEDGED SWORD, PIERCING EVEN TO THE DIVIDING ASUNDER OF THE SOUL AND SPIRIT, AND OF THE JOINTS AND MARROW, AND IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART.--
SO?
You haven't shown the only true rule of Christian faith is the written Word, (Sola Scriptura.)
Jesus says, "If he will not hear even the Church let him be to you as the heathen and the publican," --A heretic and outcast. (Matt 18 :17
What your "reformers" became, breaking off from Christ's Church.
And, in 1 Tim 3:15 the Church is called by Paul,
"The pillar and ground of the TRUTH."
Why? Because she was sent the Holy Spirit! (Acts 2--) Doesn't that text tell us the apostles converted more than 3,OOO members into the Church? In ONE day? How many had seen a Bible?
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You're funny.
Ciao, get a life. |
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Again, the point is the tradition of all the church, be they protestant or catholic, that said tradition has the wise men at the manger with the shepherds. There is an actual contradiction between the two records, and tradition. In Luke the babe is circumcised 8 days after birth, and THEN after Mary's purification, he is presented in the temple. Matthew states THAT night they left for Egypt. Either the Word of God is wrong or tradition.
And sir, if I discredit any, it is tradition. A true conservative com-patriot hides not from the truth, shirks not from his duty to investigate, ceases not to be the watchmen on that wall in prayer, and is forth right in speaking in matters concerning God and country |
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I'm not sure why you focus on the word "Lament" in Verse 40...Verse 31 is pretty unambiguous, regardless of what the translation.
King James Version
V 11-31- Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
Darby version
11:31 then shall that which cometh forth from the door of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, be Jehovah's, and I will offer it up for a burnt-offering.
Webster Version (1983)
Then it shall be, that whatever cometh out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it for a
burnt-offering.
English (Douay-Rheims)
Whosoever shall first come forth out of the doors of my house, and shall meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, the same will I offer a holocaust to the Lord.
Sorry, man, I think it's pretty unambigous. He was planning to sacrifice someone... The tragedy was that his daughter instead of some hapless servant was the first out the door.
But I really like the Brick Testament version!
http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/jephthah_kills_his_ virgin_daughter/jg11_34.html
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"There is nothing mystical about revelation,"
There's nothing true about "Bible Only." Or a Reformation.
The false doctrine invented by Luther. A heresy.
"God who is Spirit, communicates via the spirit,:
Absolutely, to His Church but not to free-lance ministers of dubious authority.
And His revealed Word is TOTALLY mystical. Moses became a mystic and prophet where previously he'd been an Egyptian. God made him a true mystic; He conversed on a mountain with the God of Abraham. Abraham too was a great mystic. God spoke to Him from heaven.
Whereas, you aren't conversed with; you're too sinful to make sense of God's Word, in any form.
End of story. |
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No, Mr. Moron. The truth is nothing of that kind. Explain why you swallowed that atheist hook.
Raping and slaughtering are against the Will of God. Those who have sinned this way are on the way to hell. Likely right in front of YOU, Moron. We're commanded to LOVE, not slaughter, in the Catholic Church.
The sad thing is we're sinners who disobey; that's what YOU refer to. And who's the greatest sinner if not you, a shameless apostate!
Me- Uh, actually, there a whole bunch of bible verses were God endorses murder and rape.
For instance, in the book of Judges, chapter 21 after slaughter all but 600 men of the Benjaminites, the Isrealites felt bad for these guys and attacked the town of Jabesh-Gilead. They proceded to kill all the men, women and children, except for any females who had not had sex yet. THOSE girls were parcelled out to the Benjamanites to repopulate the tribe. (And somehow, I don't think there were too keen on having sex with guys who had just slaughtered their families.)
Then you have Numbers 31- where the Israelites slaughtered the Midianites... and killed every man woman and child, except the virgins, who were kept for the victors.
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
(And seriously, what is this thing about wanting to screw virgins? Heck, I want a woman who can teach me a thing or two!) |
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"Sacred Tradition, just as the CHURCH, founded by Our Holy Redeemer; AND SCRIPTURE itself; all come staunchly CERTIFED and true because the Holy Spirit abides with Christ's Church. Not with King James II or your Bible study classes."
Me- Wow, guy, it was King James I who decided to translate the Bible into English. And that was only because previous attempts had made such a mockery of it...
James II was the idiot who made a sorry attempt to take the country back to Catholicism after 150 years of Protestantism... The English concluded he was retarded or something and deposed him... and England AND America are better off for it.
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Bug-gene the Axe-hole enjoying himself
He found someone he can embarrass, a free-lance Bible scholar /
Me- actually, I find Mike a lot harder to argue with than you. He's smart, he's knowledable and he's sincere. He doesn't have to resort to personal insults to make his points.
On the other hand, you are just hateful, stupid and repeat the same nonsense over and over again. I guess the nuns broke you when you were little and you lost any ability to think for yourself, which is kind of sad, really.
Seriously, your average nun just needed some scented candles and k.d. lang albums, and they'd have been fine.
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Were they Catholic or Judean? the record in Acts 2.
The point on the contradiction in the birth records, is to show the power of tradition over truth. When ever truth is tarnished or covered over by tradition the impact of the scripture is lost. This post about creation vs. evolution has degraded into defense of tradition, where if, the truth of creation is clearly seen from the persecptive of God, the hub bub about evolution could be put to rest, but simple definition of terms biblical, are handled as mystical, or the old adage God works in mysterious ways is marched forth, and all beat their chest, but in the end, God is the one who is suppose to get the glory, not me, poet, writer, prophet, denomination, theory, or any such other thing. This could be done with scripture, and what it teaches, but I fear, that in such a desolate state of dis-repair is the understanding of the word, that intelligent conversation is not forth coming. To get there, be sure, would in the end glorify God, as was the purpose of creation in the begginning, but as Adam ceased to see this glory, so too, we, the believers(we see it), but are unable in terms sufficent to communicate to those who are honest seeking ind. who know, that a God worthy of praise does not stand in contradiction, of that which he created |
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Dear Axe-wipe, your words:
". . . it's pretty unambigous. He was planning to sacrifice someone. The tragedy was that his daughter instead of some hapless servant was the first out the door."
You're ambiguous; acting as if you understand. But only cribbing all of this from some homosexual exegetical put-down site. We know all of you dream heaps of (by morbid imagination) incriminating smears against God. Forget it. You never incriminate the Author of all LIFE. He's the infinite power unto Himself, you Weirdo.
God isn't bound by anything other than His own promises. He alone has power of life and death to mete out according to His divine wisdom. HOLY is His name!
Not your minds, so wise you think men of healthy testosterone ought to copulate on one another to orgasm. (NOT logical, not very wise.) Therefore, just once I'll DARE speak for Almighty God.
"YOU are a tragedy, not my Will. When I need your angry sounds, I can convert you into a bull fiddle. |
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As a freethinker and rationalist, I am finding the fight between Mike and Dread kind of fascinating... I suspect the way that ancient Romans enjoyed watching gladiators beat the snot out of each other.
Dread takes the typical Catholic view... The Church is never wrong. Only the Church can tell you what to think. He probalby represents the worst of funditard thinking, most often exemplified by the most idiotic of religions- The Mormons and the Catholics. Don't ever think for yourself. don't you dare question the contradictions in the Bible. We will whack you with a wooden ruler if you don't.
Mike is more of an apologist. He KNOWS the contradictions are there. He knows that a LOT of it is contrary to the way civilized people in the 21st century would want to live. yet he also needs to feel a need to defend it, by trying to find a loophole with the skill of a lawyer reading the fine print.
Me... I just look at the whole thing and say , "Bull---t." |
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DN- You're ambiguous;
Me- Oh, wow, guy, that's really mature... And you say you're in your 70's?
DN - acting as if you understand. But only cribbing all of this from some homosexual exegetical put-down site. We know all of you dream heaps of (by morbid imagination) incriminating smears against God. Forget it. You never incriminate the Author of all LIFE. He's the infinite power unto Himself, you Weirdo.
Me- Dread, why is it that you seem to automaticaly associate "atheist" with "Gay"? I actually had to look "exegetical" up, and I don't think you are using the word properly in a sentence. (Sister Mary Butch will be around with her ruler to deal with you!)
Dn- God isn't bound by anything other than His own promises. He alone has power of life and death to mete out according to His divine wisdom. HOLY is His name!
Me- What's "Holy" about that. Honestly, it seems to me that your God is much like the government bureaucrats you conservatards hate- Capricious, indifferent and not really all that interested in seeing the right thing done.
Dn-Not your minds, so wise you think men of healthy testosterone ought to copulate on one another to orgasm. (NOT logical, not very wise.)
Me- No, but it is what it is...Some people are gay. (and again, I'll ask the question, why do you only seem to obsess with MALE homosexuals? Most of the gay people I've known in my life have been chicks.)
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Dn- Therefore, just once I'll DARE speak for Almighty God.
"YOU are a tragedy, not my Will. When I need your angry sounds, I can convert you into a bull fiddle.
Me- And if he does so, I might take the whole thing seriously. But honestly, I've always been amazed that every religionist seems to think God must share his bigotries, hatreds and preferences. I've never heard one of you say, "I hate Phags, but God must have a purpose for them!"
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"Dread takes [a] Catholic view... The Church is never wrong. Only the Church can tell you what to think."
You exaggerate; that's OK /
The Church is authorized in Christ and the Holy Spirit. No matter what you say. She speaks infallibly in all matters of faith and morals.
That isn't to say only we are moral, nor that a denomination can't teach Christian morals. BUT the Catholic Church alone of all others is infallible. Not for all worldly affairs or governing. About Christ and His Gospel, about the historical journey of Christ's Holy Gospel since Jesus ascended to the Father; and on all scriptural interpretation and God's Word. INFALLIBLE as well as called by God.
He probalby(sic) represents . . . funditard thinking, Don't ever think for yourself. [Don't] you dare question contradictions in the Bible."
These are lies. No need to make replies. He won't reply if I say homosexuals copulate all over themselves like a dirty frog infestation. Supposed healthy, virile men. I guess I'm too close to the truth. He doesn't like the subject of homosexual indecency; unless he can pin something on "Father O'Malley," --FICTION!
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--God isn't bound by anything other than His own promises. He alone has power of life and death to mete out according to His divine wisdom. HOLY is His name!
"What's "Holy" about that."
Go find that definition, Simpleton. HOLY.
". . . God is much like the government bureaucrats you conservatards hate- Capricious, indifferent and not really all that interested in seeing the right thing done."
Fine, dismiss God. You won't escape Him in the hour of your death. Nor will I; we call it divine justice. He will see the right thing done to you. But wait and you'll see.
He's never indifferent. He guides every constellation and nothing happens except His Will. Your temporal nuisance has its reward, as inevitably as Venus and Mars go on in their own orbits. Of Earth I had better not comment; we may not be so fortunate.
Now; enough of your nonsense. Clam up.
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There's this picture painted by michelangelo, in your church. It is a painting of God. strictly forbidden by scripture. You can call it a masterpiece. You can call it beautiful, but the INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD, calls it a graven image. See ten commandments. Isn't it called creation? maybe why that is why we aren't getting any traction on this post. |
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"You exaggerate; that's OK /
The Church is authorized in Christ and the Holy Spirit. No matter what you say. She speaks infallibly in all matters of faith and morals.
That isn't to say only we are moral, nor that a denomination can't teach Christian morals. BUT the Catholic Church alone of all others is infallible. Not for all worldly affairs or governing. About Christ and His Gospel, about the historical journey of Christ's Holy Gospel since Jesus ascended to the Father; and on all scriptural interpretation and God's Word. INFALLIBLE as well as called by God.
He probalby(sic) represents . . . funditard thinking, Don't ever think for yourself. [Don't] you dare question contradictions in the Bible."
These are lies. No need to make replies. He won't reply if I say homosexuals copulate all over themselves like a dirty frog infestation. Supposed healthy, virile men. I guess I'm too close to the truth. He doesn't like the subject of homosexual indecency; unless he can pin something on "Father O'Malley," --FICTION!"
Me- Well, you're the one who worships a naked dude on a stick and denies that the priests were molesting little boys...
Still, I look at your church, and see a corrupt organization that has little to do with the good things that Jesus was actually trying to say... and this became clear to me at a pretty early age. Jesus was a good guy. He just wasn't God and he didn't rise from the dead.
Why does God NEED your church to interpret his word, and determine who is and isn't worthy of absolution? Doesn't God ALREADY know who is truly penitent for his sins, and who is just BSing his way through? We can go back to the quite REAL Father O'Grady (the subject of "Deliver us from Evil") who obviously convinced a lot of his Churchmen he was sorry about all those kids he molested, when clearly he was not.
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"Fine, dismiss God. You won't escape Him in the hour of your death. Nor will I; we call it divine justice. He will see the right thing done to you. But wait and you'll see.
He's never indifferent. He guides every constellation and nothing happens except His Will. Your temporal nuisance has its reward, as inevitably as Venus and Mars go on in their own orbits. Of Earth I had better not comment; we may not be so fortunate.
Now; enough of your nonsense. Clam up."
Me- Besides the fact "constellations" are just human imagination, nothing more than bunnies seen in clouds, let's examine the more serious aspects of your argument.
I look at my life and count the people I've helped through acts of kindness (probably in the hundreds) to the people I've hurt (maybe a handful, most of whom had it coming, but I still feel bad about some of them) and by your logic, God won't give a hoot about any of that! He's only worried that I didn't kiss his cosmic backside and had serious doubts living in his very imperfect world.
I'm also wondering about why you guys m#sturbate about the end of the world. why would you WANT to see that happen. So you can say "I was right!" ? That seems small and petty. I look forward to a world that continues for centuries after I am gone, when I am forgotten by most and humanity goes on to the stars and makes fantastic discoveries and accomplishments.
Because it isn't about me. Or You.
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Please, Mike.
God gave the order to Israel, to carve two cherubim (angels) and cover the figurines in beaten gold, placing them onto the Ark of the Covenant. More figures, trees and animal statues, went into the decor of his Temple in Jerusalem;
Those graven images you worry about are gods carved from wood and stone by idolaters; not pious and reverent images proving the infinite power and majesty of God HIMSELF.
For His sake don't suggest on the Internet the possibility that you're a brain-washed, ridiculous apple-knocker with a Bible. |
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Bob Munck writes: Saturday, October, 17, 2009 3:19 PM
arch 1:24 PM
"We are bacteria compared to the intellect of God."
Actually if there were a god that encompassed the entire universe, he'd be incredibly stupid due to speed-of-light delays in his brain.
arch says
Bob. I think you are wrong. God would just speak and it would be so as he desires. Do you understand the magnitude of the omnipotent factor in a being so great?
Have you no clue that human beings are a drop in the ocean compared to universe Creators?
You are but a smidgeon in the underwear of God! |
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What's an apple knocker? I don't know. Is this an insult?
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dreadnaught
There's this picture painted by michelangelo, in your church. It is a painting of God. strictly forbidden by scripture. You can call it a masterpiece. You can call it beautiful, but the INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD, calls it a graven image. See ten commandments. Isn't it called creation? maybe why that is why we aren't getting any traction on this post.
Me- My late mother was an art teacher, and when she tried to give my youngest brother a lecture about "nudity", she cited the Michaelangelo example. "Well, he painted nudes in the Sistine Chapel". (To which I whispered to my brother "Nobody caught him!")
As a young Catholic, I often had a problem with the Graven Images stricture in the Bible. Thou shall have no graven images, or make an image of any thing. (Probably explains why there is so little art to documents the history of the Hebrews/Judeans/whatever). But there we were in the church with Naked Dude on a Stick, the Virgin Mary, St. Joseph (or as I said, only MY patron saint would buy that story) St. Francis and all the other saints...
the Church is a business. And a picture (statue/stained glass window) is worth a thousand words.... Why try to get an illiterate priest to get your point across when an artist can do it so much better.
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Axe. Since you were made by a Creator, Then you are nothing in comparison. You do not create. You destroy and take away. That is your mode of operation. God would despise you and your state of being. You certainly do not want to make an Ominipotent Creator mad at you now do you?
What is the logic in that? |
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Munck is correct in his observation, evolution and creation cannot be mixed. Intelligent design, or whatever new modern comprimise that can be summoned. Genesis 1:1-2:4 must stand on its own, and in it all questions scientific or otherwise must be answered, and accounted for. By the way, all nations are as the dust on a scale, not just one man. That's in Isaiah. this happened in the days of Galileo, it happened with Newton. Reasonable, thinking men who through the force of tradition were in part exiled for their beliefs, and you guys still won't come back to the word of God. You still don't put forth the effort to see what it says. That dammable WAS in Gen. 1:2 mistranslation is the hebrew word become. It used in Gen. 2:7 and man BECAME a living soul. Gen 19:26 and she BECAME a pillar of salt. Exodus 4:3 and it BECAME a serpant. Gen 4:3 and it CAME TO PASS.
Religion has played the role of the eccntric off-center drive like on the old locomatives, that has been the driving force away from God. Science seeing religion inadequacies, has freed itself from its bonds, because as the church held to the flat earth, center of the universe theories, you pop here and quote THE OMNIPOTENT FACTOR, without verification against the lunatic ravings of Darwin or Dawkin. please let us expound, this is why we are a laughing stock, because blind man swinging, or any wildly talking can set us at one against another. No this should not be, but it is, and clergy, and leadership are as unequiped to fix this mess as the Republicans are to take a stand against what is surely coming in the political. Go back and read my post on this blog. i have offered insight into how the Word is to be interpreted. At times i will admit i digressed, but for the point of removing traditions, to see what the scriptures say. We must do better. the fossil record can be explained within the confines of scripture, without being pious. |
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"Though supernatural forces cannot be evaluated by science, it does not follow that they do not exist."
Nor does it follow that they do. Even if we grant the (logically absurd) premise that they do, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Greeks or the Romans or the Zoroastrians didn't have it right instead of the Christians or the Jews or the Muslims.
We are nowhere close to hitting a brick wall in the advancement of human knowledge, and it's possible that we never will be. Despite that, the True Believer declares we already know all we need to and has stopped asking questions. I personally believe that is the most dangerous attitude possible. |
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Axe.
Axe. Since you were made by a Creator, Then you are nothing in comparison. You do not create. You destroy and take away. That is your mode of operation. God would despise you and your state of being. You certainly do not want to make an Ominipotent Creator mad at you now do you?
What is the logic in that?
Me- I don't believe that there is an omnipotent creator. And even if there is, he is certainly not the comic-opera God of the Bible. That guy is a small bronze age God worshipped by people who cowered at the sound of thunder. We now know what thunder is.... |
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Careful with that axe, Eugene writes: Sunday, October, 18, 2009 2:10 AM
Archtard
Axe.
Axe. Since you were made by a Creator, Then you are nothing in comparison. You do not create. You destroy and take away. That is your mode of operation. God would despise you and your state of being. You certainly do not want to make an Ominipotent Creator mad at you now do you?
What is the logic in that?
Me- I don't believe that there is an omnipotent creator. And even if there is, he is certainly not the comic-opera God of the Bible. That guy is a small bronze age God worshipped by people who cowered at the sound of thunder. We now know what thunder is....
Arch says
Axe. Doesn't matter what you believe in. Truth is truth. You have an Omnipotent Creator and you are subject to his whims. Your existence proves me right! Get used to it brother! |
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Axe. Everything you do, say, or think is recorded as an action in the universe. The Creator is like a huge super computer that stores every action taken in His Created Universe and the subsequent reactions. You will be judged upon that recording and you better hope the Creator is a forgiving one!
What if you are wrong? What if the Creator exists as I say?
What will you lose by submitting to the Creator's demands? What will you lose if you do not?
Better think about that Axe! |
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Axe
Do you want to see the likes of me, drinking fine wine and breeding the myriads of beautiful angles in eternity while you roast in the fires on the spits of Hell?
Do you really want to take that chance? |
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"Do you want to see the likes of me, drinking fine wine and breeding the myriads of beautiful angles in eternity while you roast in the fires on the spits of Hell?
Do you really want to take that chance?"
I can't answer for Axe, of course, but I can provide my own perspective. First and foremost, you're basically running the Pascal's Gambit argument. If there is indeed some supernatural being out there with the powers you suggest, then I'd be perfectly justified in roasting in the afterlife, as I used the reason I have - which you claim was given to me rather than evolved - and came to the only logical, empirically-based conclusion possible.
To vary a bit and approach on a different tack, how about this: remove God from your argument and replace with, say...terrorists. If you worship and obey terrorists, you'll have a good life. If you don't, you'll get tortured to death. Would you stand on principle? I like to think I would. Same goes for the purely fictional deity you speak of. A being wouldn't get my worship out of fear; its mandates would have to actually make some sense.
Finally, your argument suggests that you can compel faith, which isn't true among most adults who already don't have it. Simply repeating, over and over, that something exists despite a complete and utter lack of empirical evidence is never going to convince anybody who requires empirical evidence to believe anything. I could tell you all day long that the pink flying unicorns will devour your soul every day for eternity if you don't paint your house red, but why on earth would you believe me? |
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"Axe. Doesn't matter what you believe in. Truth is truth. You have an Omnipotent Creator and you are subject to his whims. Your existence proves me right! Get used to it brother!"
Me- My existence only proves my existence.
"Axe. Everything you do, say, or think is recorded as an action in the universe. The Creator is like a huge super computer that stores every action taken in His Created Universe and the subsequent reactions. You will be judged upon that recording and you better hope the Creator is a forgiving one! What if you are wrong? What if the Creator exists as I say?
What will you lose by submitting to the creator's demands? What will you lose if you do not? Better think about that Axe!"
Me- I have... I find the notion so utterly ridiculous that I have laughing fits. But even if that were the case, I've lived a pretty decent life. GIven the choice between helping others and helping myself, I usually help others, sometimes to my detriment. If there's a God keeping score, I'm not worried about it.
Arch- "Do you want to see the likes of me, drinking fine wine and breeding the myriads of beautiful angles in eternity while you roast in the fires on the spits of Hell? Do you really want to take that chance?"
Me- Dude, what kind of Effed Up view of the hereafter do you have? That sounds like Mohammed Atta's view of heaven, not a Christians. |
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FOR AS THE HEAVEN IS HIGH ABOVE THE ERTH, SO GREAT IS HIS MERCY TOWARD THEM THAT FEAR HIM
AS FAR AS THE EAST IS FROM THE WEST, SO FAR HATH HE REMOVED OUR TRANSGRESSION FROM US.
LIKE AS A FATHER PITIETH HIS CHILDREN, SO THE LORD PITIETH THEM THAT FEAR HIM
FOR HE KNOWETH OUR FRAME; HE REMEMBERETH THAT WE OUR DUST
This seems to debunk the super computer theory. |
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FOR AS THE HEAVEN IS HIGH ABOVE THE ERTH, SO GREAT IS HIS MERCY TOWARD THEM THAT FEAR HIM
AS FAR AS THE EAST IS FROM THE WEST, SO FAR HATH HE REMOVED OUR TRANSGRESSION FROM US.
LIKE AS A FATHER PITIETH HIS CHILDREN, SO THE LORD PITIETH THEM THAT FEAR HIM
FOR HE KNOWETH OUR FRAME; HE REMEMBERETH THAT WE OUR DUST
Me- well, since the world is round, aren't "east and west" largely subjective. Chicago is EAST of London and West of Toyko, but you can get there going the other way, too... it'll just take longer.
And we know know that the clouds are just vaporized water and dust, NOT a place where people are sitting around playing harps... |
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At the north pole every place you stand looks south. Actually East and west never do join. Get your dam globe out and take a look.
Actually that is not what scripture teaches about heaven, genuis boy. I fail to grasp your reference to clouds in this post. This would be a dark age medivel fantasy your referring to, not the actual point made, by the scripture.
The great point is mercy. Deride it if you want, but the sarcasm is against God's mercy, not I.
Further the point of the post was to debunk something said against you, and I trying to set the accuracy of the scriptures, on said point, have you trying to ignore point made, and ramble on to yet a new contention. context, context. The pen is mightier than the sword, but be careful you may hurt yourself. |
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I don't need the help of moron bible thumpers to debunk and humiliate other moron bible thumpers. Frankly, I'd have no problem if you all killed each other over an argument of how many sky pixies can dance on the head of a pin, if I wasn't worried you'd all kill a lot of other poor schlubs in the process... you know, like you've all been doing for the last 2000 years.
Simply put, you, Arch, Dread and every other bible thumper is cut from the same cloth- the inability to accept science because it would destroy you comfortable world view that a benevolent sky pixie is going to avenge everyone who ever scoffed at you... which is really kind of sick, when you think about it. |
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Now we are getting somewhere. Science's inability simply put to explain certain facets of its sacred doctrines of evolution, is only half of it's problem. The other half is gentlemen like yourself, who hold scriptual truth in the medivel dark ages. You allow for changes in science, new findings, but have held the church to every dogmatic error it has ever taught. Whether it be errant paintings, or crusader's wandering about the middle east in search of something that doesn't exist. No the errors of the history of the Christians are many. But that is a small thing compared to the big bang, primordial ooze, the unseen spark that ignited the single cell. The single cell, that built it all. Dawkins is nuts. Darwin was nuts. Science has enjoyed the widest possible latitude in research and funding, and done so while restricting any opposistion to the narrowest means.
No, whether I explain it right, this I know.
In the beginning God created the heavens and earth, and the earth became without form and void, because of lucifer, God then said let there be light, and by the seventh literal day when he rested all the Sons of God shouted for joy. Fantastic was this creation, marvalous was his work, with mathematical exactness, with scientific precision HE SAID, and it was so. the balncing of the stars of heaven, the beauty of the flowers on the earth. The brillance of life itself. The eye that sees the ear that hears, the mouth that speaks. The acident you call life just didn't happen, it was determined, plan and brought forth.
Interesting point Yahweh is used the first time in Genesis 2:4. It is indicative to His relationship to his creation. |
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I don't hold scripture in the "Dark Ages" I hold it where it came from, the Bronze Age, where Yahweh was like Zeus, Marduk, Molech and every other savage bronze age diety worshipped by bronze age savages...
The two separate creations stories in Genesis. (There are TWO of them, by the way, not one) are MYTHS. Not truths, not metaphors, but myths made up by primitive savages with the limited understanding of the world they had. And you can quote mangled scripture all day, and it won't make it any more true.
The problem with so called "Creation Science" is that it begins with a conclusion, and then fits the evidence into the conclusion. Science doesn't work that way. It follows the evidence to the conclusion.
What we know now is that we humans were not descended from a single couple (which should have been obvious since they human species would have died out from inbreeding with a few generations, which is why the Bible in intentionally circumspect about where Cain, Abel and Seth got their wives). We know know that we were the result of an evolutionary process that resulted in a dozen species of hominids, of which we were the winning version. |
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"For His sake don't suggest on the Internet the possibility that you're a brain-washed, ridiculous apple-knocker with a Bible."
Dear Mike,
For HIS sake (God)
Do not YOU YOURSELF, not me, do it to yourself.
That is, leave the awful impression-- you're an A-K
An apple knocker was a hillbilly, a rube, a good old boy not too swift, or somewhat uncultivated,
in other words a fundie acting as if the Word was a simple matter of looking straight at the truth; therefore you can't be mistaken.
Great doctors of the Church labored for years, praying the Holy Spirit to guide them and keep them from falling into ERROR,
Which is just a different word for human wisdom; that thing God calls "folly."
Apple-knockers think they always have the Spirit, when all they have for sure is folly. |
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Actually Gen 5:3 Says adam begat son and daughters. Oh and here is a freeby. The reason men and women lived longer before the flood than after the flood is compression of the bloodline, back to 8. Oh, no I'm in another corner. No, its all explainable, and all documented. Further, then the accounting for the flood, then the ice caps must have been free of ice in terms of relative recent history, and not this enduring block we are in danger of losing. Further there are Norwegian documents, that verify a receding north polar ice cap as recent as 1400, and may account for the Vikings in North America, 200 years before Columbus. (dam white people) Low and behold, there are maps that show Anartica in proper longitude and latitude. There at this library in Washington D.C. called the library of Congress |
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"In the beginning God created the heavens and earth, and the earth became without form and void, because of lucifer"
Where'd LUCIFER come from?
A whiff of polytheism. |
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As for the mutant mealworm calling himself an Axe-wipe;
Don't pay attention.
"We know know that we were the result of an evolutionary process that resulted in a dozen species of hominids, of which we were the winning version."
We "know know," and all that. (Don't include us in that "WE," Zax,)
He's not even an apple-knocker. He only leaves behind lots of apple-sauce in these pages.
His big problem is megalomania, an elongated, (worm) bossy EGO, part mental illness and part due to glue-sniffing. Ignore the creep. |
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We actually know where Lucifer's from.
It was revealed. Polytheism would indicate he's a god, but that's not what's revealed.
God created all the angels and Lucifer was one of God's most stupendous angelic spirits;
He was overcome with pride, and fell down to earth. He's represented in Genesis by a serpent. He hates me & you, and he hates his Creator, God.
Likely hates God because He's infinitely holier and supreme over all His Creation, including angels. |
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"We "know know," and all that. (Don't include us in that "WE," Zax,)"
Me- Actually, even your own church admits the truth of evolution...
http://biblelight.net/darwin.htm
It just doesn't accept the fact that it effectively debunks Christianity. No Garden of Eden, No Original Sin, no need for Jesus to come down and "redeem us" through torture-pornography. (OH, wait, that was Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ. Guy has a torture fetish.)
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"Polytheism would indicate he's a god, but that's not what's revealed."
In what way is he not a god? Immortality, super powers, supernatural, the power to cloud men's minds, the whole bit. Lots of gods were created by other gods.
Christian polytheism. |
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God created man only slightly lower than the angels.
It's speculated the reason Satan, or Lucifer, hates men is because Our Creator chose mankind and not angels, for the incarnation of His only-begotten Son. Jesus became MAN.
We're therefore God's holy people on account of Christ's willingness to become a man.
Whereas, poor atheistic Darwinists would have man just some notches over the animal species, a hominid. Not just below God's most holy, exquisite angelic spirits.
You dudes ought to be more honest and state a hard disclaimer when speaking of "hominids."
Hominids are by NO MEANS human beings. They were apes and remained so. I like apes; but I'm not "related" to any of them, and you aren't either. |
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I've spent much time in the scripture, going over accounts again and again. Then again. Much of the time has been in the period, that predates the law as given to Moses, known for the sake of simplicity as the time of the Patriarch's. From Adam to Moses. In the book of Job in one verse, there is one Hebrew word, that just in the book of Job is translated into ten different English words, hence the arrival at the understanding of what the intended text says has been much hampered, coupled with the figures of speech, customs, manners of an ancient people that may have changed over time. Plus the fact that one location I have been seeking has been conquered, renamed, reconquered probably 8-10 times. No the study of Biblical history is a slow process. I am awed by the men such as Dr. Strong, EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE, Dr. Bullinger's, FIGURES OF SPEECH USED IN THE BIBLE, and many others.
added to this, my job requires about 60 hours per week. Most is physical, but it requires some intellect of practical matters to keep a concrete plant functioning. I utilize my time the best I can. In understanding of the scriptures I do not speak hap hazardly, or without intent. At times it seems I am devisive, argumentative, but for the larger goal of scriptual unity.
This post is a classic example of Christians being unable to speak in concise terms, that which is undeniable, and because not even the first chapter of Genesis is understood, the fossil record is used against us, when in reality its a validation of the bigger point that scripture teaches of the spiritual realities.
If I have offended you, please except my apology. But My all means, let us bring forth and bring to light the great HIS-story of the scriptures. |
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careful
Actually Gen 5:3 Says adam begat son and daughters.
Me- Depends on which bible version you read. And it's still pretty ambigous. But it avoids my point, if you have this 800 year old man fathering children on his 800 year old wife (were I think the chances of having a Down Syndrome Tard goes up to like 100%) and they are the only people, and they start marrying their sisters (You know, Dread would start making fun of your rural background at this point, but I'll refrain.) you'd have a problem with inbreeding.
Further, then the accounting for the flood, then the ice caps must have been free of ice in terms of relative recent history, and not this enduring block we are in danger of losing. Further there are Norwegian documents, that verify a receding north polar ice cap as recent as 1400, and may account for the Vikings in North America, 200 years before Columbus. (dam white people) Low and behold, there are maps that show Anartica in proper longitude and latitude. There at this library in Washington D.C. called the library of Congress
ME- Actually, the Vikings probably got here earlier than that, but that has nothing to do with your point that it "proves" there was a world-wide flood. Besides the fact that you have that inbreeding problem again. (The only humans around being Noah's sons and their wives, which means all these "apple-knockers" are marrying their cousins) the fact is that if you only saved two members of each species, the majority of species would be wiped out when the predators started eating the prey animals. 'Awe, damn, that was the last Zebra, now what are we going to eat?"
Further, the geological record does not show all modern animals life enemating from one point. Kangaroos have ALWAYS lived in Australia. They've never lived in the Middle East.
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Oh, man, this guy is just WAAAAAYYYYY to much fun.
"God created man only slightly lower than the angels.
It's speculated the reason Satan, or Lucifer, hates men is because Our Creator chose mankind and not angels, for the incarnation of His only-begotten Son. Jesus became MAN.
We're therefore God's holy people on account of Christ's willingness to become a man."
Me- You can go on with all that speculation, but where are the bible verses to back it up? In fact, Satan is barely mentioned in the Bible at all. In Job he is actually allowed to walk around Heaven and talk God into idiot bar bets to screw with Job's life. And references to "Lucifer" appear to actually refer to the
Satan is like Professor Moriarity. He's actually a bit player that subsequent writers have conflated into being something more than he really was. (Come to think of it, Sherlock Holmes came back from the dead, too. But he's a fictional character. But so Is Jesus.)
DN- "Whereas, poor atheistic Darwinists would have man just some notches over the animal species, a hominid. Not just below God's most holy, exquisite angelic spirits.
You dudes ought to be more honest and state a hard disclaimer when speaking of "hominids."
Hominids are by NO MEANS human beings. They were apes and remained so. I like apes; but I'm not "related" to any of them, and you aren't either."
Me- Given that apes aren't on the verge of destroying the planet, and have never come up with such idiotic ideas as politics and religion, I'd hardly call us "holy". But to the point, a Bonobo Chimpanzee has 98% of the same DNA a human being has.
But, yeah, we are above all the other animals, that we can prove exists, unlike Gods, Devils, Angels and all the other pixies you claim are out there but can't prove the existence of. |
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"God created man only slightly lower than the angels."
What units are you using to measure this? What direction is "lower" and "higher?"
"Hominids are by NO MEANS human beings."
No, but human beings are hominids. We are Class Mammalia, Order Primates, Family Hominidae, Genera chimpanzees, gorillas, humans and orangutans. You had an ancestor in common with all the members of Hominidae about 13 million years ago. |
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"In what way is he not a god? Immortality, super powers, supernatural, the power to cloud men's minds, the whole bit. Lots of gods were created by other gods.
Christian polytheism."
NO, just a few of your misconceptions, Bob. As before; Christians have no misconceptions, not relying in your link to reality, laboratory science. We have it all REVEALED by God, to His people.
Immortal: All of us also have immortal souls. That's what He meant saying we were made in the image of God.
Super powers: Not exactly; the devil has only created powers, common to all angels, good ones and fallen ones. They even vary; but that's another subject. Satan is powerful, but not All-powerful, as Almighty God is.
Satan has no "power to cloud mens' minds." We fall into sin because of Adam's disobedience, from whom we descend. If my mind were really "clouded" by another will, or power; I'd be blameless of sin. The other power would keep all the blame for my sins.
I have free will. That's why my sins are always my own decision, and my own weakness; not the devil's power. All he ever does is present temptations to do evil.
"Lots of gods were created by other gods,"--?
You'll have a hard time proving it. That is NOT something revealed by God. (I hope you don't object.)
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"You'll have a hard time proving it. That is NOT something revealed by God. (I hope you don't object.)"
Wait, why are you asking for proof all of a sudden? You can't provide a single shred of evidence for anything you're saying, but Munch has to prove his statements? |
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Whenever Eugeno Cretino posts, he's showing off, not thinking about the truth.
His mental illness precludes that ever he would agree with another person. His ego insists on multiple-posting to suffocate all other views,
He lives in total jealousy and self-absorption; and yet comes forth to "educate" the "less intelligent." This always requires him to post five times to your one.
Above all these symptoms of madness, is this one:
He's filled with hatred.
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as to that last Zebra. maybe you should re-read the account
Genesis 7:2
OF EVERY CLEAN BEAST THOU SHALT TAKE TO THEE BY SEVENS, THE MALE AND THE FEMALE. AND OF THE BEAST THAT ARE NOT CLEAN BY TWO, THE MALE AND FEMALE.
I know it probably screw up the fine graphics at brick test. but again tradition teaches two, the word says different |
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"Christians have no misconceptions"
That's a misconception.
"Immortal: All of us also have immortal souls."
Immortality is one of the aspects of a god.
"Satan is powerful, but not All-powerful, as Almighty God is."
That doesn't mean that Satan isn't a god, only that he's a lesser one. Pan has fewer powers than Zeus -- no lightning bolts -- but they're both still gods.
"Satan has no "power to cloud mens' minds."
Oh, sorry, that was The Shadow.
"We fall into sin because of Adam's disobedience, from whom we descend."
So what exactly does Satan do for a living?
"Lots of gods were created by other gods,"--?
You'll have a hard time proving it."
Nah, that's easy. Zeus and Demeter birthed Persephone, for example. Loki created Fenrir, Jörmungandr, and Hel. Yù Huáng fathered Chih'nü. |
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Very well, then.
Lots of gods were created by other gods. Bob Munuck insists.
I liked songs by Roger Miller;
I recall one, "You cain't roller-skate in a buffalo herd,"
Well, Bob Munck just does it; and now we know gods create other gods. Skate on, Bob.
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"Immortality is one of the aspects of a god."
I'm aware of Almighty God. You're likely still stuck on Captain Marvel comics. Or, Wonder Woman. Almighty God has given men immortal souls. The promises of everlasting life for His faithful come from Christ, who is God.
"That doesn't mean that Satan isn't a god, only that he's a lesser one. Pan has fewer powers than Zeus -- no lightning bolts -- but they're both still gods."
Be more discriminating, Bob. It isn't just me who'll die. The whole matter will be settled soon enough. Not by Zeus; who was carved of stone. I hoped to help you understand Lucifer. Not argue about myths. God is living and real; HE REIGNS eternally. Lucifer never reigned at all, and you make him a god.
Just as you presume an hominid is our common ancestor with King Kong. On the word of one or two men.
You love the comics. Try to just stay tuned; maybe one day you'll argue from more than a few tableaux and drawings. Which are developed by science from a particle of bone.
"We fall into sin because of Adam's disobedience, from whom we descend."
". . . what exactly does Satan do for a living?"
We know his work is mainly DEFIANCE of Our Father in heaven. His "living" is whatever he can harvest from God's Creation-- Your soul would be good plunder, and of course Eugene Axe-hole's when he gets the large pitchfork.
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I feel somehow, you'd please Satan much more than Axe-hole would, on that pitchfork. Even more than Dawkin's soul would please him.
They only talk a good atheist game; whereas, Bob means to cook up more false gods, as well as to meet Satan on the conversational level. "Is it true, O, Top of the Angelic Food Chain;
". . . that God once really loved you? That you fell from grace? I've been trying to milk your divine status for more than its comic strip angle. Help me out, please."
Like Charlie Rose at a table with Barax Obama. |
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"You're likely still stuck on Captain Marvel comics. Or, Wonder Woman"
Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman aren't gods, not even comic book gods.
"Lucifer never reigned at all"
Jesus called him “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11). The Apostle Paul called him the “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and the “prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). The Apostle John said, “The whole world is under the control of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).
"Just as you presume an hominid is our common ancestor with King Kong. On the word of one or two men."
No, on massive amounts of physical evidence. King Kong was a character in a movie. You seem to have a great deal of trouble differentiating truth from fiction. |
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II Cor. 4;4
IN WHOM THE god OF THIS WORLD HATH BLINDED THE MINDS OF THEM WHICH BELIEVE NOT, LEST THE LIGHT OF THE GLORIUOS GOSPEL OF CHRIST, WHO IS THE IMAGE OF GOD, SHOULD SHINE UNTO THEM.
Luke 4:6
AND THE DEVIL SAID UNTO HIM, ALL THIS POWER WILL I GIVE THEE, AND THE GLORY OF THEM: FOR THAT IS DELIVERED UNTO ME; AND TO WHOMSOEVER I WILL I GIVE IT.
Beyond the consequences of Adam's sin was the transfer of his power to satan, the snake, aka, the devil. That is why he could appear in the presence of God in the book of Job, as the accuser. It has been said that the secrecy of his moves is the secret to his success. But be very clear the bible says there are two God's. On the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and satan. When jesus commissioned the 70 in Luke 10, he said of that effort, luke 10:18 AAND HE SAID UNTO THEM, I BEHELD SATAN AS LIGHTENING FALL FROM HEAVEN. Peter in Acts 10;38 HOW GOD ANNOINTED JESUS OF NAZARETH WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH POWER: WHO WENT ABOUT DOING GOOD, AND HEALING ALL THAT WERE OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL; FOR GOD WAS WITH HIM.
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"No, on massive amounts of physical evidence. King Kong was a character in a movie. You seem to have a great deal of trouble differentiating truth from fiction."
Bingo. Nail, meet head. |
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"Whenever Eugeno Cretino posts, he's showing off, not thinking about the truth.
His mental illness precludes that ever he would agree with another person. His ego insists on multiple-posting to suffocate all other views,
He lives in total jealousy and self-absorption; and yet comes forth to "educate" the "less intelligent." This always requires him to post five times to your one.
Above all these symptoms of madness, is this one:
He's filled with hatred. "
Wow, guy, don't give up your day job...
I agree with people all the time. I just don't agree with bible-thumping morons who can't see that their book is full of contradictions, violence, cruelty, sexism, racism, intolerance and outright absurdities.
I don't believe I can educate some 70 year old brainwashed idiot who embraces sky pixies because he knows he's on death's door, and hopes for vindication in a puppies and sunshine afterlife. Make the most of what you have in the here and now, because it's probably all you will ever have. |
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