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The Mitt Romney network... |
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You know, visit http://ipoopooyourbigidea.blogspot.com/
to share your ideas about Romney.
George
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Great stations, KRLA is starting to get there.
Mr. Poo Poo
http://ipoopooyourbigidea.blogspot.com/ |
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Excellent interview of a thoughtful man. Much better for Republicans than the santimony of James Dobson the other night on Hannity and Colmes (and I am a long time Focus on the Family memberwho stills recieves their emails) |
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the evangelicals come together behind someone, and if it's Mitt, I'm glad. Not supporting a nominee is going to suicide for sure...and it's already an uphill battle. All of a sudden it's a fight for the evangelical vote as some of these leaders have come out supporting Mitt, others not, one supporting Fred, Rudy getting a few. If you're Rudy, you want to see the vote get diluted. It most certainly gets interesting, Mitt may get a much needed bump in the south and should he maintain his leads in IA/NH, it may look good thereafter. Still along ways to go and these candidates have huge targets on their back.
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Once again pure entertainment, I just heard Hugh say that this highly influential theologian endorsed Romney, except you probably have never heard of him unless you are a theologian
what is that like .0000005% of the population?
Hiiii Freakin Larious !!!!
Hugh, you are getting to the point that I will not even respect you if you come on your Show and admit "I am for Romney and have been the whole time...Gotcha!!!!"
what a snake oil salesman you are
dirL |
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Rudy doesn't have a chance unless lots of Dems cross over to vote in Republican primaries. Won't happen. I just don't see hwy evangelicals have such a problem backing a virtuous candidate. A Romney/Hunter or Thompson/Hunter or Hunter/? ticket would storm to a landslide so long as the one leading the ticket pounded out a conservative message. |
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Jeb Bush jr is for Rudy: "As someone who grew up around politics and candidates, I know that Rudy has the leadership qualities and unmatched experience to be the next President of the United States," Bush said in a statement. "I'm honored to join his campaign and look forward to working with the many young professionals throughout Florida supporting the Mayor."
I will take a politician's son's recommedation over a preacher's any day. |
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Who needs a theologian's endorsement when a theologian is running for President? Just vote for Mike Huckabee. He's up to 2nd place in Iowa now. Up to 9% in the nation. He's picking up support daily. Mike has the momentum right now, not Romney. Romney has outspent Huckabee and others by the tens of millions, but he doesn't have much to show for it so far. |
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I'm still not going to be satisfied until Mitt gets Oral Roberts' endorsement. |
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It really dilutes the message that us Christians will not vote for Mitt Romney because he is a Mormon.
The truth is we Christians, if given the vote, will always vote that Mormonism is not Christianity. However, that does not mean we are automatically bigots who will not vote for a Mormon to be our Congressman, or Senator, or President.
I myself will vote for whoever has the best chance of beating Rudy. If that's Mitt, great. If it's Thompson, great. If it's Huckabee, or Hunter, fantastic.
Anybody but Rudy. |
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Christ is my personal Savior that paid for my sins and the sins of the world. I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints aka as Mormons. I don't denounce your religions and beliefs. |
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"Dr. Robert Jeffress, pastor of First Baptist Church of Dallas, said that Mormonism is a false religion and that Mr. Romney was not a Christian.
Mitt Romney is a Mormon, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise," Dr. Jeffress said in a sermon Sept. 30. "Even though he talks about Jesus as his Lord and savior, he is not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity. Mormonism is a cult."
Some in the large crowd began to applaud as Dr. Jeffress continued with his remarks."
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From the WaPo "At the moment, there's nothing but confusion every place I go," said Chuck Colson, who runs the Prison Fellowship, a national Christian ministry. "They lament the fact that there's no one candidate out there around whom evangelicals and conservative Catholics can sort of coalesce around and get excited about."
He added: "Nobody has rung the bell yet."
Oops. |
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Hugh, man, I have to say, when I started reading your blog this summer, it was actually interesting. But as I scroll down the site now, its almost nothing but stumping for Mitt and sports. Where once I was oft entertained for hours I now think "geez, not another Mitt post. Which way to Instapundit or RCP?" And anyway, isn't this post the exact same one you posted earlier today? At least bump instead of duplicate.
And don't think it's just because I'm not a Mitt man (I'm not, but I still like the guy and think he'd make a great president.) Dean Barnett was for Romney too, but he spiced it up a bit now and then. I miss his posts already.
C'mon I can't be the only one here with this opinion (unless everyone else already gave up and left...)
Sorry to be such a wet blanket, I'm just trying to offer constructive viewer feedback here. |
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Every day here we hear about some new pied piper who (presumabl)y has 100,000 mindless evangelical drones obediently following his lead. Sorry, but I’m not buying it. By my count, this guy plus the Bob Jones bigot make two Romney votes, not 200,000 or 2 million or whatever.
The bottom line with Christians, Christian conservatives, and conservatives in general is that Romney, Giuliani, Thompson, and McCain all have their work cut out for them trying to prove to the individual voter that they will be good conservative stewards. You can’t do an end-run around this process by signing up a few televangelists or whatever and getting them to do your work for you. Christians may refer to themselves as a flock and the Lord as their shepherd, but that doesn’t mean they are sheep. They’re not votes in anyone’s back pocket, to be distributed as their leaders see fit.
It’s insulting to evangelicals to depict every preacher’s endorsement of a candidate as a major coup for someone, as that implies the populace lacks the ability to make these decisions itself. |
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how long it'll be before this fundie is outed as a (choose one) sexual predator, toilet stall toe tapper, fraudulent greedmeister, casino endorsing hypocrite? Can't wait. |
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As an evangelical in PA who attends a very large evangelical church, I can tell you that we are not waiting for some so-called evangelical spokesman to tell us how to vote. In fact, their posturing is rather embarrassing. They need to return to spreading the gospel. Everyday evangelicals will not turn out for Romney, not because he is a Mormon, but because he is not authentic. He is too slick, too politically expedient and is a creation of the millions at his disposal. Do not be surprised when Mike Huckabee, an authentic candidate, who has always been in the evangelical camp receives most of the evangelical support. |
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As much as I like Romney, I think he's going to have a very difficult time being elected. Many Christian conservatives consider Mormonism to be a cult, and unless Romney and his supporters can come up with a reasoned argument for his election, addressing a Biblical argument that Christian conservatives can accept, then he's not going to get their vote. It is foolish for the Romney campaign to ignore this and not face it head on.
The point not being addressed: He isn't running to be rabbi, pastor, or anything else. He's running for President. What he does as President would be bounded by the Constitution and the political process, not the Book of Mormon.
I think I understand the conservative Christian voter. If they don't agree with a candidate, they just won't do the get-out-the-vote grass works tasks, and they will stay home election night and not vote for anyone. Most of those GOP precinct committemen are conservative Christians. You need to get them on your side. Look what happened to John McCain in 2000. |
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Did you see the interview of Dr. Dobson with Sean Hannity? If you did not I suggest you send to Fox News to get it. It was ALL about the "pro-life movement" being destroyed by Rudy. As someone who has marched in Atlanta,at "Together for Life" for years, gave and volunteered for Ga. Right to Life, have given to Crisis Pregnancy Centers in 3 states, active and prayed for Zell Miller and Max Cleland not to be pro-choice, I guarantee you that I am as into saving children as you are. I did not appreciate his attitude in the interview. |
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"Many Christian conservatives consider Mormonism to be a cult, and unless Romney and his supporters can come up with a reasoned argument for his election, addressing a Biblical argument that Christian conservatives can accept, then he's not going to get their vote. It is foolish for the Romney campaign to ignore this and not face it head on. "
A Biblical argument for what? What is he not already facing head on?
"The point not being addressed: He isn't running to be rabbi, pastor, or anything else. He's running for President. "
Then why do you require a "biblical" explanation if you aren't electing him to be your pastor in chief?
"What he does as President would be bounded by the Constitution and the political process, not the Book of Mormon. "
Let's see, you feel free to let the Bible influence your life (fine with me), but won't allow Romney to let the Bible and Book of Mormon to influence his. So much for religious freedom. By the way, he has proven his adherence to the Constitution and political process quite well.
"I think I understand the conservative Christian voter. If they don't agree with a candidate, they just won't do the get-out-the-vote grass works tasks, and they will stay home election night and not vote for anyone. "
I think I understand them too, but I have no sympathy for the armchair quarterbacks who will sit out election day. If they do that, then I really don't care what they whine about. I will work for those who will vote. |
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If Romney, Huckabee and Thompson split the conservative vote, say hello to Rudy. We need to get behind ONE of them. Romney is the best and most logical choice.
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If Romney, Huckabee and Thompson split the conservative vote, say hello to Rudy. We need to get behind ONE of them. Romney is the best and most logical choice. |
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If Romney, Huckabee and Thompson split the conservative vote, say hello to Rudy. We need to get behind ONE of them. Romney is the best and most logical choice. |
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well I am totally in the fight but Dobson did not come across very well. Why would it kill the pro-life movement, which seemed to be his chief concern? Why would electing Rudy make everyone who is pro-life stop being? Reagan put O'Conner on the court, did that make us give up? HW Bush put Souter on the court did we quit....both of those things were more disasters than anything. Roe would be over if those 2 pro-lifers had both put a judge Rudy says he will put on the court. Let's just pass the "See Your Choice" in all 50 states and 98-99% of all abotions will be stopped through sonograms. Mothers see the face of their baby in the womb, and do not go through with it. Then send Killer Tiller to jail for killing the babies he's killed. |
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that sounds positive. Up with people. Go Hillary :) !!! :)
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/speech/view/?id=1839
I want a Republican who can win the general. I can live with Rudy's faults. I can live with Mitt's faults. I can live with Fred's faults. Of all the GOP candidates, John McCain would have the best chance of beating Hillary and would be the best GOP candidate on the war on terror, but too many of you are more afraid of Mexican gardeners than al Qaeda terrorists. So we have to go with the best we have.
I am sorry, I have very little respect for Dobson and just contempt for Bob Jones University. But Krauthammer today summed up the problem with the Dems in charge of foriegn policy. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SC36G00&show_art icle=1 As much as George Bush made mistakes, the Democrats are downright stupid (and may be even worse than that). |
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It is time to drink some coffee and open your eyes. Many in the GOP establishment really do not want abortion to go away. They do not want to get rid of Roe. They want to be on the edge of getting rid of Roe all the time. That is not true for the base, but I think that is very true for many in the leadership.
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Hugh,
A woman from Seattle I believe tried twice to get through to your show to discuss the “Polygamy” issue regarding Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith. You would have no part of it. I can easily point out the “facts” to you if you can open your mind. Let me state upfront, I will support the Republican Candidate including MITT.
Polygamy was officially suspended by the President of the church in 1890, twenty-eight years after polygamy was declared illegal by the U.S. government, and thirteen years after a U.S. court had ruled that polygamous marriages were not valid (Wallace 368). Ann Eliza Webb had filed for divorce from Brigham Young in 1873, forcing the government to take a stand on the continuing practice of polygamy. The court ruled that she could not receive a divorce, since she was never legally married (Snowden 287).
The church has since become militant about preventing polygamy; anyone found practicing it is immediately excommunicated, and those who preach it are ostracized (Johnson 76). However, polygamy is still in practice in the church, just in a less obvious form. If a woman's husband dies, she may, after a suitable mourning period, marry another man as long as she marries him "for time", or only until death. After death, she will be brought into heaven to be with her first and true husband for eternity. However, if a man's wife dies, he may marry again celestially, thus providing for himself a polygamous family in heaven. The government may be able to thwart the holy practice of polygamy on earth, but they can do nothing about it in heaven.
Author's name: Jessica Longaker
Religious Studies 263
March 27, 1995
Women and Mormonism
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THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501-507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
58-66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
(The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) |
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Are you guys like Nancy Pelosi worrying about the Armenian Geocide? That was more than 100 years ago. Mormons are not polygamists any more. Joseph Smith is long gone and so is Cromwell. I would take Smith over Cromwell any day. Of course, Thomas More was a better man than both of them.
Someone who is with you 80%
is not your 20% enemy. Somebody important said that.
Mitt, Rudy and Fred all have their faults, but I would take anyone of them over Hillary. Vote your conscience in the primaries, vote who you think will be best, but when the general election do not believe the BS or drink the Koolaid that their is no difference between GOP and Dems.
If you are worried about the SCOTUS picks of Mitt, Rudy or Fred, I will guarantee you that Hillary's picks will be worse. Have you noticed GOP Presidents bat worse than .500 when it comes to picking real conservatives to the Supreme Court, but Democrats always seem to get exactly what they want?
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"Romney troubled by Mormonism's polygamous past"
(Retuers, May 10, 2007)
Boston, USA - Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney said his Mormon religious faith's history of polygamy could trouble American voters but that he too is bothered by it.
…said in an interview to be broadcast on Sunday that the practice banned by the Mormon church in 1890 was "awful."
"That's part of the history of the church's past that I understand is troubling to people," he said……………
……And I must admit, I can't imagine anything more awful than polygamy," he said.
…Romney, 60, who has previously called polygamy "bizarre,"
Fact: Polygamy exists still as a major “Heavenly” belief of the Mormons TODAY.
Fact: The original Joseph Smith revelation on polygamy still exists as “scripture” in the Mormon religion and the “scripture” has never been repudiated by Mormon leadership. GO ASK THEM.
Fact: Mormons TODAY perform “plural” temple marriages for their male members who desire such a marriage if their “earthly” wife has passed away and they have found a 2nd, 3rd or 4th (with the requirement that all previous wives are no longer living) wife for temple marriage ceremonies.
I’ll vote for the guy. I just want him to OWN ALL OF HIS RELIGION and come clean that POLYGAMY IS A HEAVENLY MORMON BELIEF AND IS PART OF HIS CHURCH DOCTRINE.
Mr. Romney are you calling Section 132 of your D&C scriptures “awful”, “troubling” and “bizarre”? It is your religion Mr. Romney. This scripture and the Mormon temple marriage sealing “polygamy” celestial rituals remain TO THIS DAY……….that’s all……………… |
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So Mormons believe in celestial marriage. So what. If say. . . a Baptist man or woman marries more than once in their lives, and their spouses and them all go to heaven, do they hang out together? Is anyone still married? How about just assuming that you live your life on earth best you can within your own faith belief and whatever the afterlife holds for you is really up to God (or not if you are Christopher Hitchens).
I am no big Mitt Romney fan, but lighten up. |
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Just getting the “facts” out Joe….
I would bet a very large percentage of Mormon women are not even aware of this “Heavenly” plural marriage doctrine. Look at Mr. Romney’s own quotes. Maybe, he has not even read Section 132 of the Mormon D&C. I wonder if Mrs. Romney has read it.
Presidential politics can be rough. I don’t want the guy making a misstep when he gets in a debate with Hillary (IF he is the nominee) and/or cornered by a bunch of left-winged reporter babes………... I’m doing him a favor. This is NOT going away……The truth has a strange way of always popping up……
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Do you believe the Bible to be the word of God? Do you accept the New AND Old Testaments to be scripture? Do you believe God called and sanctioned Abraham, Issac and Jacob to be prophets? Were Kings David and Solomon ordained by God to lead Israel? If so then please explain their polygamy.
Jacob 3 in the Book of Mormon details the doctrine on polygamy and that is that God has ordained this practice and allowed it but only for certain times and in certain (relatively rare) circumstances. Polygamy in the 19th century was practiced by a relatively small percentage of LDS families. You had to be invited to live it - you couldn't just help yourself to a new wife. Relatively few men had the financial wherewithal to practice in any event. It was instituted for a particular purpose - to provide husbands and fathers to those fatherless children and women whose husbands who were either killed or died crossing the plains. It was seen as a way for more children to be raised in the faith and, like Abraham of old, it was a trial to see if God's people would obey his commandments. Just like in ancient times when the practice was discontinued for reasons only God would know, so in the 19th century polygamy had outlived its usefulness and had become a liability to the church and thus was similarly discontinued.
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So lexonex be consistent. Do you find it odd that Catholics believe that the priest turns the wafer and wine into literally the body and blood of Christ so that his parishioners 'eat' these emblems? Gosh - that's so weird – surely Rudi Guiliani needs to “own his faith”? Can a man be trusted to run the country who believes such heresy (as transubstantiation is seen by some Christians).
Does Mike Huckabee speak in tongues as many good evangelicals do (and some even believe it is essential for you to get to heaven to speak in tongues)? I don’t hear any probing questions on his religion. Surely he too should “own his religion”. Surely such weird religious practice discounts a man from being President. Shock horror – it would make him unelectable.
You simply reveal yourself as a two bit anti-Mormon hack.
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Now, if Mr. Romney HAS read Section 132 of the D&C and DOES know his religion; then I am very troubled. That would put him in a position of “minimizing”, “down-playing”, “mischaracterizing” or whatever you want to call it; his religion/belief to get votes. Then I can’t respect him. Then I can’t support him. It is his religion and not mine. If he claims it as his then I hold him to it.
“For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Jesus Matt. 16;26)
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” (Jesus Mark 8;36)
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Now, if Mr. Romney HAS read Section 132 of the D&C and DOES know his religion; then I am very troubled. That would put him in a position of “minimizing”, “down-playing”, “mischaracterizing” or whatever you want to call it; his religion/belief to get votes. Then I can’t respect him. Then I can’t support him. It is his religion and not mine. If he claims it as his then I hold him to it.
“For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Jesus Matt. 16;26)
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” (Jesus Mark 8;36) |
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http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132 |
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I am not going to defend Mormon theology, because I am not a Mormon and it is what it is. So you think the various doctrines of the LDS Church are inconsitent with your faith (which I assume is some form of Evangelical Protestantism)--fair enough. You point out that polygamy remains a factor in the Church's thinking. It is a rather abstract point but okay. I asked you what happens to a Baptist who has been married several times, does he or she see their former spouses in heaven and who is with who? Isn't this all a silly argument?
Mitt was raised Mormon. He has been married to only one woman. For all the crazy points you raise, so what? Mitt is going to lose some voters because he is Mormon, clearly you are one of them. |
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I'm fully aware of D&C 132. Please answer the question posed earlier - what status in your mind do the polygamous Old Testaments prophets hold and why do you think God still treated them as His servants despite their multiple wives? You have gone quite silent on this point.
You also appear to be avoiding the issue of your utter inconsistency. I dont know what church you worship at but why not address the odd doctrines of the faith of all the GOP frontrunners since doctrines you perceive as wierd seems to be your major yardstick for Presidential suitability. Every religion has beliefs that appear strange to outsiders. Even the most innocuous mainstream Protestant church goers are deluded in the eyes of athiests and secular progressives.
Have you not read Article 6 of the Constitution? It would appear an increasing number of evangelicals are happy to endorse Romney as a candidate for President whilst holding no belief whatsoever in LDS doctrine. Get over it! |
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A veteran GOP congressional aide who has been a critic of McCain, most recently on the issue of immigration, recently surprised himself by concluding that the Arizona senator would be the best general-election candidate. This strategist seeks a nominee who will unify and energize the base, who has the potential to win, and who makes fellow Republicans competitive. He notes that McCain is pro-life and strong on national security, and has long been in favor of fiscal restraint. In addition to unifying social, economic, and national-security conservatives, he argues, McCain has a maverick image that can appeal to the independent voters who abandoned the GOP in droves in 2006. http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=ZjUyY2UxMWRkNmEzZ mJlNmE5ZTcyNWY0NGRjOGU5Nzk=&b=330925
Unfortunately many in the GOP are more afraid of Mexican gardeners than al Qaeda terrorists. I don't disagree with you benner on holding tight on abortion (especially in the primaries). But when the general election comes around and if I have a choice between Hillary on onside and Fred, Rudy, Mitt, John, or Mike on the other. I will pick the GOP. As bad as they have been on many things, they are still more competent than Pelosi and Reid, and with Hillary the damage those three could cause is tremendous.
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“Factor” and “abstract point”? Listen to what I say Joe, “Holy Polygamy” is part of Romney’s “Church Doctrine”. Joe, I want him to own it. I want him to be a “complete”, “honest” Mormon. I don’t want him to package himself as something other than a Devout Mormon. He was a “Stake President” and “Bishop” at one time in his life I believe. He was part of the Mormon Leadership. He claims to be a devout Mormon. HOW can he say that polygamy is “awful”, “bizarre” and he is “troubled” and “bothered” (Reuters May 10, 2007) by it?
He can’t be a devout Mormon and pick and choose what Mormon scriptures he will adhere/believe. Polygamy is “Heavenly” Church Doctrine and Section 132 verse 61 is Holy Scripture to any “True Mormon”. If Mr. Romney is a “True Mormon” I want him to support ALL Church Doctrine and recant what he said about polygamy OR at least clarify the fact he was referring to polygamy being actively practice during “earthly” existence BUT, he fully supports Section 132 verse 61 of the Mormon D&C as Holy Scripture. If he can NOT do that then he can always leave the Mormon Church and free himself by asking for excommunication from the Mormon Church.
Question from the Press Corps: “MR. ROMNEY, DO YOU SUPPORT ALL MORMON CHURCH SCRIPTURE AND DOCTRINE”? I’m sure he would answer yes, but as you can see from his own quotes he clearly does NOT. Which is it Mr. Romney? Did you turn your back on your Mormon church simply to win a political office Mr. Romney? Are you trying to protect this “awful” church doctrine from the light of public discourse? Do you have “doubts” about your Mormon Faith Mr. Romney?
I am NOT asking him to conform to my beliefs. I’m asking him to be TRUE to his Mormon beliefs and STOP representing himself as some “progressive” Mormon; because there ain’t no such creature. |
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“Mitt is going to lose some voters because he is Mormon, clearly you are one of them.” (Joe)
If my choice is between Hillary and Mitt, I’ll vote for Willard. I won’t like it. We all have faults, I have faults……Willard is running for President, not me.
I just want him to see his religion as it is. Perhaps, that is just too hard for someone “immersed” in it.
Some day he will have to do it. Someday he will really get to know Willard Mitt Romney. |
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The kid with the rats? Am I missing something?
If you are upset with Mitt because the LDS church says if a guy gets married several times, all his wives will be with him in heaven as wives. . . you need a hobby or something. Who cares? I have my doubts about Mitt as a candidate (because I worry he cannot beat Hillary), but him being a Mormon is not one of them. I judge people and religions by their behavior, not minor doctrinal points of their faith. The Mormon Church is not some force of evil. It is a mainstream faith worthy of reciprocal respect. Mitt is a good man, happily married to one woman, with a nice family. If you have doubts about the guy, vote for Fred, Rudy, John, Mike, Duncan or one of the other GOP candidates. |
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WILLARD Mitt Romney (born March 12, 1947) was the 70th Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Elected in 2002, Romney served one term and did not seek re-election in 2006; his term expired January 4, 2007.
Mitt Romney is the son of 1968 presidential candidate George W. Romney and 1970 U.S. Senate candidate Lenore Romney. He was named after hotel magnate J. WILLARD Marriott, his father's best friend.
WILLARD Mitt Romney married his high school girlfriend Ann Davies in 1968.
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Branch Number of Adherents
Catholic 1,050,000,000
Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000
African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000
Pentecostal 105,000,000
Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000
Anglican 73,000,000
Baptist 70,000,000
Methodist 70,000,000
Lutheran 64,000,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000
Adventist 12,000,000
Latter Day Saints 12,500,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000
Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000
New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000
Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000
Mennonite 1,250,000
Friends (Quakers) 300,000
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Top 20 Nations with Highest Proportion
of Latter-day Saints in the Population
Country Percent
Tonga 32.0%
Samoa 25.0
American Samoa 25.0
Niue 15.0
Kiribati 6.0
Tahiti 6.0
Cook Islands 5.0
Marshall Islands 4.0
Chile 2.5
Palau 2.0
USA 1.9
Uruguay 1.8
New Zealand 1.5
Guatemala 1.3
Honduras 1.2
Bolivia 1.1
Ecuador 1.1
Peru 1.1
Belize 1.1
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Top 10 U.S. States with Most Latter-day Saints, 1990
State Number of
congregations Number of
members Percent of state
population
Utah 2,924 1,236,242 71.76%
California 1,323 533,741 1.79
Idaho 662 268,060 26.63
Arizona 469 199,761 5.45
Washington 371 150,634 3.10
Texas 329 111,276 0.66
Oregon 228 89,601 3.15
Nevada 198 89,033 7.41
Colorado 193 70,313 2.13
Florida 160 59,845 0.46
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Question for Mr. Romney: Is it true a Mormon woman MUST marry a male Mormon Priesthood holder in a Mormon Temple to get into Mormon Celestial Heaven?
I don’t know how Willard will answer that question Joe. I believe the Mormon Church Authorities will say “yes” to that question.
Mormons are “mainstream” Joe? Do you consider that “mainstream” Christianity Joe? I call it evil. They are screwing up young women’s minds. THEY DON’T NEED ANY MALE MORMON TO GET TO GOD OR HEAVEN.
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” (Matt.23;9) |
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lexonex
I note you have failed to answer my questions - neatly avoiding rebuttal to your obsession about polygamy. I take your failure to respond being that you have no answer. Thanks for the stats - LDS global numbers now 13 million by the way - % in Tonga is now over 40% in fact all those stats are now higher - do keep up!
Um actually an LDS man must marry an LDS woman before he can enter the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom - gosh that makes it sound far less patriarchal doesn't it. Unmarried men and woman can still inherit celestial glory. When trying to call us evil, at least get the doctrine right.
As Joe and others have repeatedly said - these doctrinal obscure niceties are a big so what. Question for Mayor Guiliani: Do you really believe that your after your priest performs the mass that you are eating the literal body and blood of Christ? Question for Gov Huckabee: Do we all have to speak in tongues to go to Heaven? Can't you see how silly you are sounding? |
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My point is that Catholic doctrine is irrelevant. I weigh Catholic candidates not on the accuracy or doctrinal correctness of their beliefs but on the conduct, track record and promised policies of the individual candidate. Same with Evangelicals. As a practising LDS there are doctrinal differences with other faiths for sure but I rejoice in the Christlike life of any person regardless of their particualar brand of religion. I'd happily vote for a Jewish President if he/she was the most socially conservative, economically sound and foreign/defence policy strong.
Lexonex - go read Article 6 and tell me that tells us our candidates have to be of the right religion and/or be faithful adherents to the beliefs of that religion. |
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All subjects of Tonga must belong to a church, by law. Many pick the mormons, because there is finacial support and educational money. The King of Tonga is not mormon. The mormon's give more money to Tonga than the US Government. It's all about the mormon'$ $$$ beny's for Tongans. Yawn, Mitt Romney will never be elected President of US. |
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Monday, July 28, 1997
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
The Mormon Church is the most prosperous of American religions and is preparing to focus that considerable wealth on an unprecedented campaign of international expansion... a minimum of $30 billion in assets and annual gross income of $6 billion -- more than Utah's state budget this year…According to the article entitled "Mormons Inc.: The Secret of America's Most Prosperous Religion," the church last year brought in $5.2 billion in tithings alone from its roughly 10 million members, who are asked to give 10 percent of their income. ..If the Mormon Church were a corporation, that yearly revenue would place it midway through the Fortune 500, a little below Union Carbide and the Paine Webber Group, but bigger than Nike and the Gap…All of this, according to the magazine, is in preparation for a major expansion outside of North America. Church membership this year reached a watershed in that there are more Mormons living abroad than in the United States for the first time ever. The church is positioning itself to push that expansion to the next level which, according to one author cited in the story, could create a membership of 260 million in 83 years…."The Mormons could well emerge as the next great global tribe," author Joel Kotkin told Time. ..The church, the seventh largest in the United States, is growing at a rate of 4.7 percent domestically and nearly double that abroad. ..The story details just a few of the church's expansive holdings, including the world's largest beef ranch -- the 312,000-acre Deseret Cattle and Citrus Ranch outside Orlando, Fla. The ranch's land alone is worth $858 million…The church also owns America's largest producer of nuts, as well as Bonneville International Corp., the country's 14th largest radio chain, and the Beneficial Life Insurance Co., with assets of $1.6 billion… |
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MYTH #7: Polygamy was necessary in early Utah because there were more women than men.
The fact is, there were more men than women in early Utah when polygamy was being practiced. Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe wrote on pages 390-391 of his book entitled Evidences and Reconciliations, "The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage, sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more females than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence. On the contrary, there seem always to have been more males than females in the Church... The theory that plural marriage was a consequence of a surplus of female Church members fails from lack of evidence."
http://www.macgregorministries.org/mormons/mormon_myths.htm l |
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Ray
Let's have some proof of your "compulsary church affiliation" claim in Tonga please.
Lexenox
Your point is? The blessings of tithing are promised in Malachi 3. I know plenty of Christians who tithe and they receive the blessings promised by the Lord through His prophet Malachi.
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More cutting and pasting from the anti-Mormon web sites I see. I never claimed that there was a preponderance of women over men - only that polygamy did provide a more normal family environment to some who had lost husbands. The main reason for polygamy is well summed up in a later paragraph by Widstoe in the "Evidences and Reconcilations" book: "The principle of plural marriage came by revelation from the Lord. That is the reason why the Church practiced it. It ceased when the Lord so directed through the then living Prophet. The Church lives, moves, and has its being in revelation"
Which brings me back to the question you have been avoiding for over a day now which you really do need to now answer and that is: "What status in your mind do the polygamous Old Testaments prophets hold and why do you think God still treated them as His servants despite their multiple wives?" Now you can answer this all by yourself - oh no hang on maybe you'll need to refer to some anti-Mormon literature 1st. Go on be a big boy and give it a shot.
Also - are you going to put the other GOP candidates religions through your rigorous religious test ringer? Thought not. |
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"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (Jesus Matt7;15)
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THE WIVES OF JOSEPH SMITH
Wife Date Age Husband*
Emma Hale Jan 1827 22
Fanny Alger 1833 16
Lucinda Morgan Harris 1838 37 George W. Harris
Louisa Beaman Apr 1841 26
Zina Huntington Jacobs Oct 1841 20 Henry Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell Dec 1841 31 Norman Buell
Agnes Coolbrith Jan 1842 33
Sylvia Sessions Lyon Feb 1842 23 Windsor Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner Feb 1842 23 Adam Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions Mar 1842 47 David Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde Apr 1842 27 Orson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee Jun 1842 50 Jabez Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland Jun 1842 53 John Cleveland
Delcena Johnson Jul 1842 37
Eliza R. Snow Jun 1842 38
Sarah Ann Whitney Jul 1842 17
Martha McBride Aug 1842 37
Ruth Vose Sayers Feb 1843 33 Edward Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth 1843 16
Emily Dow Partridge Mar 1843 19
Eliza Maria Partridge Mar 1843 22
Almera Johnson Apr 1843 30
Lucy Walker May 1843 17
Sarah Lawrence May 1843 17
Maria Lawrence May 1843 19
Helen Mar Kimball May 1843 14
Hanna Ells 1843 29
Elvira Cowles Holmes Jun 1843 29 Jonathan Holmes
Rhoda Richards Jun 1843 58
Desdemona Fullmer Jul 1843 32
Olive Frost 1843 27
Melissa Lott Sep 1843 19
Nancy M. Winchester 1843 14
Fanny Young Nov 1843 56
* Living husband at the time of marriage to Joseph Smith |
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Nancy’s (Nancy M. Winchester) marriage to Joseph is undocumented, although according to Mormon Church Historian Andrew Jenson, Nancy married Joseph sometime before his death in June of 1844. Nancy would have been fourteen or fifteen years old.
A few months after Joseph Smith’s death, Nancy and another six of Joseph’s wives married Heber C. Kimball. Since the temple had not been completed when Nancy married Joseph, she was re-sealed to him in 1846 in the near complete, but dedicated, Nauvoo temple. Her husband “for time”, Heber C. Kimball stood proxy for Joseph Smith in this sealing.
Nancy immigrated to Utah in 1849. Several years later she received a patriarchal blessing from John Smith. She was blessed, “to heal the sick, cast out devils, and raise the dead, if necessary.”
Nancy died on March 17, 1876 in Salt Lake City. |
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“Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives...The first impulse was anger...my sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure; for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically, ‘No I wouldn’t!’...This was the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him...Then he commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth. [This] had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.”
“asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph...[and] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours...I was sceptical-one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions.” |
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“Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter”
"[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me.”
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Dear lenonex. Please cut and paste updated info re the humanitarian aid given by LDS (those selfish cultists) to communities/countries where there have been earthquakes, floods, mudslides, fires, drought, civil unrest, and sickness and poverty. Those tithes and offerings which seem to offend you continuously find their way into the lives of the silent suffering folks of all creeds and races - around the globe. That Forida beef you talk about is canned and shared, the welfare canneries can food that is shared for free, the blankets and sanitation supplies are supplied without cost. You should be talking about these donations of aid, the reconstruction of clean water systems, the educational supplies, and the clothing and food donations by the truck loads and the container loads that are continuously delivered to people who haven't a clue what the name LDS or Mormon might mean. And you obviously omitted the millions or dollars donated to help eradicate measles in Africa, which is just the tip of the ice berg of medical and sanitation assistance. The LDS church works with other churches (probably yours, too) to help - without having the cameras rolling. Muslim people who need help receive our help, too. We are all God's children and should help each other.
The truth is that if you as a citizen here or abroad needed help, I would be happy to have any of my tithes and offerings go to help you and your family.
You mention Tonga. My very own deceased Canadian grandparents (as a young farming couple) were sent with their young baby (my dad) to open the LDS Tongan Mission. Talk about sacrifice and dedication. My grandma always got seasick in the small boats and my grandpa has asthma in the tropics! He almost died in Tonga in 19l8. My grandma taught school and my grandpa taught farming and other life skills as well as being missionaries of a new faith. This was all service - not a paid mission, but a mission of love for the great Tongan people. |
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my father had been warned by the Prophet to keep his daughter away...I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow [William] to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with others of my companions, and fettered me down, for no girl loved dancing better than I did...and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur.”
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lexenox
And how many children did Joseph Smith have from his plural wives? Ah none. Most if not all of these marriages were not consummated. I'm getting the distinct impression you are avoiding the question of the plural wives of the Old Testament prophets? Perhaps it disturbs your anti-Mormon narrative. Was Abraham and Jacob's plural wives approved by God? Were they practising false doctrine? Did they fall from grace? Let's hear your answers?
You see you follow the time honored path of 170 years of anti-Mormons-that of not responding to effective rebuttal, try to overwhelm the listener/reader with so much 'shock horror' information (some of it distorted or misquoted) and the outright making up of bogus LDS doctrine. The vast screeds of anti-Mormon literature has done nothing to prevent the global growth of the church.
Finally, in your obession to oppose the church you entirely miss the whole Article 6 issue.
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“MY DEAR DAUGHTER-...be obedient to the counsel you have given to you...If you should be tempted, or having feelings in your heart, tell them to no one but your father and mother; if you do, you will be betrayed and exposed...You are blessed, but you know it not. You have done that which will be for your everlasting good for this world and that which is to come. I will admit there is not much pleasure in this world...Be true to the covenants that you have made...Be a good girl;...your affectionate father.”
Helen’s (Helen Mar Kimball) father would eventually marry thirty-nine wives. |
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I thought through this life my time will be my own
The step I now am taking’s for eternity alone,
No one need be the wiser, through time I shall be free,
And as the past hath been the future still will be.
To my guileless heart all free from worldly care
And full of blissful hopes and youthful visions rare
The world seamed bright the thret’ning clouds were kept
From sight and all looked fair...
...but pitying angels wept.
They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold.
And poisonous darts from sland’rous tongues were hurled,
Untutor’d heart in thy gen’rous sacrafise,
Thou dids’t not weigh the cost nor know the bitter price;
Thy happy dreams all o’er thou’st doom’d also to be
Bar’d out from social scenes by this thy destiny,
And o’er thy sad’nd mem’ries of sweet departed joys
Thy sicken’d heart will brood and imagine future woes,
And like a fetter’d bird with wild and longing heart,
Thou’lt dayly pine for freedom and murmor at thy lot;
But could’st thou see the future & view that glorious crown,
Awaiting you in Heaven you would not weep nor mourn.
Pure and exalted was thy father’s aim, he saw
A glory in obeying this high celestial law,
For to thousands who’ve died without the light
I will bring eternal joy & make thy crown more bright.
I’d been taught to reveire the Prophet of God
And receive every word as the word of the Lord,
But had this not come through my dear father’s mouth,
I should ne’r have received it as God’s sacred truth.
Helen Mar Kimball |
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marriage put women at risk? If that is the core issue, then I can understand why people rise up in fear that women and children might be at risk, thinking that Mitt might represent such nonsense.
The polygamists that make the news today are NOT LDS and the law is hot on their heels to protect young girls and their children.
Is it the fear that the doctrine will give men "power" to be sexual predators under the disguise of "marriage." LDS people past and present protect women and children and do not condone such awful practices. Please check out The Proclamation on the Family at LDS.org!!!
I can tell you that I come from a long line of articulate, feisty LDS women (basically European first generation Mormons who immigrated to the US) who were literate and liberated. They were writers, poets, medical doctors, teachers, artesians, as well as mothers and wives. Some were polygamists.
Did you know that LDS women in the Territory of Utah had the right to vote before other women in the US? Did you know that LDS women has the right to say yes or no to be part of a plural union - and plenty said NO? Did you know that LDS women had these own separate religious organization and monies since mid l800s?
It is fine to post exerpts from a diary of a young girl who had second thoughts about being a plural wife. LDS history is not hidden.
Mitt is not responsible for how early LDS people thought and felt. He's responsible for his own life conduct. He understands his own basic religious doctrines and is not ducking from them or the history of his church.
I do not condemn you for disagreeing with me. LDS people do honor womenhood, not to worry. Besides, we outspoken LDS women have a strong voice and walk as equal companions along side our mates. That has never changed. |
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You are doing good work here. It is so obvious that the mormon cult was really a girl cult for the founders. The con man Joe Smith couldn't get enough. He was Hugh Hefner of the 1800's. What a disgusting legacy, and a stain on the great history of America. Polygamy, and we are still dealing with the results of this abomination. |
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“He (Mitt) understands his own basic religious doctrines” (Wise Woman)
He does? HOW can he say that polygamy is “awful”, “bizarre” and he is “troubled” and “bothered” (Reuters May 10, 2007) by it?
He can’t be a devout Mormon and pick and choose what Mormon scriptures he will adhere/believe. Polygamy is “Heavenly” Church Doctrine and Section 132 verse 61 is Holy Scripture to any “True Mormon”. If Mr. Romney is a “True Mormon” I want him to support ALL Church Doctrine and recant what he said about polygamy OR at least clarify the fact he was referring to polygamy being actively practice during “earthly” existence BUT, he fully supports Section 132 verse 61 of the Mormon D&C as Holy Scripture. If he can NOT do that then he can always leave the Mormon Church and free himself by asking for excommunication from the Mormon Church.
I am NOT asking him to conform to my beliefs. I’m asking him to be TRUE to his Mormon beliefs and STOP representing himself as some “progressive” Mormon; because there ain’t no such creature.
“Equal companions”? Wise Woman you will have to clarify that for me. I thought Mormon women were not allowed to hold the Holy Mormon Priesthood. How can you be “equal” without the Priesthood? You NEED a Mormon Man. How can a single Mormon women enter the Celestial Mormon Heaven? |
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THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501-507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
58-66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
(The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) |
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Ray
Since you are in lexenox's fan club, perhaps you could help him out answering the question he won't answer (or can't). Were Abraham and Jacob's plural wives approved by God? Were they practising false doctrine? Did they fall from grace? Were they your "girl cult" of the 3000 BC period? Let's hear your answers
Oh and while you're at it, remind him that the doctrine is that only those married in the temple can make it to the highest degree of glory in the Celestial male or female. A man not married in the temple cannot make it there without his wife. Unmarried people of either sex can inherit the other 2 degrees of glory within the Celestial Kingdom. |
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“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Jesus Matt 7; 21)
“And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Jesus Matt 18; 3)
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“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many” (Jesus Matt. 24; 11) |
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Len, you addressed a couple of comments towards me.
This business of any body's place after death is decided by Christ. What is the scripture that says he employees no servant there (paraphrased)?
This idea that we (any of us) can declare with any certainty who will nor will not go to Heaven/Hell seems a little silly to me.
You have used the term Celestial and attempted to frame the idea that it is exclusive. I don't know how he will separate the sheep from the goats.
Don't you know that LDS people believe that infants who die will automatically go to the highest possible kingdom - no matter their creed or nationality (or place in time).
We don't believe in the damnation of anyone because they did not learn of Christ in their lifetime or didn't have rites performed before death (Not to make fun of other's beliefs). The Savior will not close doors on anybody.
You asked about single LDS women. They are not excluded. I've been single as an adult LDS woman. Did I lose hope? No. I've been divorced. lose That's why I wrote about the Savior being the Gatekeeper.
He taught that in His Father's House are many mansions - and that He would prepare a way for us. Because LDS people believe that baptism is necessary (per His example and NT teachings), we go to a lot of work and expense to do temple work (by proxy for deceased mortals)(which will have to be completed in the thousand year period when the Savior reigns on earth). It is a huge, unselfish undertaking - which you might laugh at - but consider the kindness behind it.
I have no trouble with men having a different division of labor in this mortal life - even leadership responsibilities. What man wants to bear chidren!
I have had tons of leadership roles in the LDS church with different levels of authority, interacting with the men, giving my plans and programs (per whatever is my assignment). |
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You asked about Mitt's authenticity to his belief system (D&C 132) if he is relieved that he doesn't have to live polygamy as his grandfather did. I can understand that sign of relief completely - my feelings, too, yet I had ancestors in Mexico (probably same time period) who were living that difficult law.
Another poster after you listed Joseph Smith's wives (his children were by Emma who hated the plural system so that is a clue about his supposed licentious behavior decided on that info alone that Joseph Smith was a bad dude. I know I have opened a can or worms as he did live with some of his plural wives). I suggest he do a little more research. Did you know that Brigham Young married for time as did Heber Kimball many of these wives after Joseph was murdered to protect them, provide food and shelter. Again, not very Hollywood seamy information - sorry.
I'm not a spokesperson for my faith but I love my faith and am quick to defend incomplete or sometimes false (follow the money people who make a a living with selective editing - met one such person in person in Minn. and confronted him on his falsehoods). Interesting experience as he claimed to be such a friend of LDS......)
I rather go back to political comments. Peace. |
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Wise Woman, I have no beef with you. If God has lead you to the Mormons then that is where you should be. Bless you.
My beef is with Willard Mitt Romney. He is running for President. He is packaging himself as a “Devout Mormon”. This is inconsistent with his news quotes that I have posted several times (Reuters May 10, 2007)
You don’t have to marry people to help them. Sorry Brigham.
Wise Woman Read the postings carefully and pray. God will never mislead you. Men will mislead you. God will not. I sense you as an honest and sincere person. I wish you well and I am NOT laughing.
If and when you are ever ready, God is still there with or without your Mormon faith. God is always near; “For in him we live, and move, and have our being” (Saint Paul Act.17:28)
“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you”… “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (Jesus John.14:2,6) |
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“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Jesus Matt.7: 13,14)
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened” (Jesus Matt.7:7,8)
“And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened” (Jesus Luke.11:9,10)
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I appreciate the tone of your reply and treasure the scriptures you quoted. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word.....
My take on things Mitt is that he is politely making a consistent effort to downplay the sensational reporting of LDS beliefs. No, he's not disavowing the doctrines of plural marriage, for example, but he is correctly stating that such practices are forbidden by the church today and gave his personal reaction to the practice; he could not imagine living polygamy. It just struck me as an odd, but honest, choice of words - on the blunt side. He is not ashamed of his roots.
But because he's tried to be mute on theological specifics and wants to talk about his political platforms instead, some may misread that as avoidance or lack of religious integrity (which I believe is your take on the situation).
Before going West, this new church was fast growing and helping tame the frontier - - and sometimes was seen as a voting bloc threat to local politicians (such as in Missouri over the slavery issue as the Mormons were anti-slavery and that upset the balance between the states). Remember American history of this period.
The leaders of the mobs were often men of the cloth. Were these outspoken Mormons a treat to their flocks/plates? Also, the LDS people worked together and quickly built farms, small communities, and even two beautiful templed cities. They were hard working and prospered - a contrast to the hard-drinking, rough men in the salons who hated these religious do-good ers.
The saga of their trials and tribulations is part of Mitt's American and religious heritage.
Well, enough. We agree to worship and follow the Savior to the best of our religious understanding. I will continue to point out reasons why I believe Mitt can be trusted and has good roots. It is good that we will both be praying for the good of the nation and for a wise president. |
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To Ray and Lexonex
I echo wise woman's sentiment and wish to part on a better note. I appreciate what you are trying to do and your perceived mission to expose what you see as false doctrine. Those were excellent scriptures and ones I passionately believe. You see I can't get enough of Jesus where ever He is found. I have long accepted Him as my Savior and adore and worship Him and do all in my power both to emulate Him and to serve Him. I try each day to do my Master's bidding by trying to bless the life of someone else. Now some Christians dismiss my personal beliefs by claiming I worship a different Jesus. I worship Jesus of Nazareth as personified in the New Testament. The reason why I am LDS is because I get to read even more of Christ's ministry and word from the Book of Mormon because that is really all the book is - a history of the Lord's dealings with the descendants of a devout Jewish family who left Jerusalem in 600BC to avoid the Babylonian conquests - just as the Bible details the history of the Lord's dealings with His children in Palestine. Acts 2 contains one short verse detailing Christ's ministry between his Resurrection and Ascension - the BOM contains 19 whole chapters packed full of amazing inspirational sermons from the mouth of Jesus. They, along with the same doctrines He taught the Jews in Israel as found in the NT, help me to formulate my life to try to be like Him.
Romney I'm sure feels the same way but you know what, he doesn't talk about it much because its personal to him. He mentions his faith as much as any other Christian running for office. Under Article 6 that's entirely appropriate.
Lets agree to disagree and strive to love God and serve Him to the utmost. |
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Uh, not to intrude here, but what does all this have to do with a Presidential election? |
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richard
sorry - ray and lex started it and well - I was a silly boy and rose to the bait. However if you check most of my posts, I did try to steer them back to the subject of the thread |
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If Romney came out and said that the Mormon church IS NOT "The one true Church", he might go places. I think he also needs to admit that Joe Smith was a false prophet, as well as Hinkley, and he might get more places. He might also want to admit he is a sinner, and that all mormons are sinners, just like everyone else. |
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Hugh wrote the book. This is a Romney for president site. I think since Hugh wrote a book about a mormon in the WH. Well, think about it. If his mormonism is not an issue, why did he write the book? |
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Ray
Still waiting for you to answer my questions - on polygamy and the BOM. I guess you have no answer - no hang on - your answer is more bluster about false prophets.
For the record, I'm a sinner hence I need the blood that Christ shed for me in the Garden of Gethsemane to pay the price for my sins. Of all the messages of the Gospel, this truly is the good news.
I guess you'll be asking Rudi to renounce the fact that the Pope is the Bishop of Christ on earth and that the Catholic Church is not the one true church either. Come to think of it - I've not seen either you or Lex ask for this to happen.
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The leaders of the mobs were often men of the cloth. Were these outspoken Mormons a threat to their flocks/plates? (Wise Woman)
You may want to do a little homework. I am no expert in this field by any means. However, I believe Joseph Smith and one his brothers was a Master Mason and MAY have taken those Masonic Temple rites as their own for use in their Mormon Temples. There are historical references to this fact and Joseph Smith having a gun in his final hours and even trying to give certain Masonic distress signals before his death. This “mob” may have been going after what they thought was a charlatan using/stealing Masonic rite for his own Mormon Temple use and had nothing to do with “jealousy” or “American Slavery”.
You have every right to remain immersed in Mormon folklore and the traditions of your parents and grandparents. Why worship your parents or grandparents? Of course love them. But, remember you only have One True Father. Your True Father is in Heaven that created you and put the breath of life in you. And; “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man (grown woman), I put away childish things” (Saint Paul 1.Cor. 13; 11)
Do some reading, do some research with an open mind and see if all you find supports Mormon Doctrine. You can’t find facts and material with a premise of “The Mormon Church is true” and go from there. You have to start with an open mind acknowledging you have a Mormon background and a Mormon influence but, you want to know everything about Truth or God. You want to know more than what the Mormon Church has been telling you all these years.
Bless you. |
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“And ye shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you free” (Jesus John 8; 32) |
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My take on things Mitt is that he is politely making a consistent effort to downplay the sensational reporting of LDS beliefs. No, he's not disavowing the doctrines of plural marriage, for example, but he is correctly stating that such practices are forbidden by the church today and gave his personal reaction to the practice; he could not imagine living polygamy. It just struck me as an odd, but honest, choice of words - on the blunt side. He is not ashamed of his roots. (Wise Woman)
Let’s be truthful here. The LDS Church has only forbidden the “earthly” practice of polygamy. They still practice “heavenly” polygamy today by Mormon Temple sealing men to other women after their previous wife which has passed on. Why doesn’t Willard Mitt Romney comment on this? Why doesn’t Willard make a pledge not to take another woman through the Mormon Temple if—God forbid—something happens to his current wife? Why won’t he do that? Because he is a Devout Mormon and believes that polygamy is a Heavenly practice.
His Reuters May 2007 comments of “bothersome”, “troubled” “awful” and “bizarre” concerning polygamy WAS a downplay on Mormon Doctrine. Why couldn’t he be honest and sincere like you and simply say; “Polygamy is a fundamental doctrine of Mormonism. No question about it. It is a Heavenly Mormon Law. I’m glad we don’t practice it here on earth and that its’ earthly practice has been forbidden by the LDS Church. I don’t fully understand Heavenly Mormon Polygamy but, I stand behind it as a principle of God”.
1. It would have cost him votes 2. Perhaps limit future women LDS recruits 3. It may have shaken up some current LDS women to question their faith |
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"There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Mormon ceremony which came to be known as the Endowment, introduced by Joseph Smith to Mormon Masons, had an immediate inspiration from Masonry." – Dr. Reed Durham, LDS Historian
"It seems to be the case, after the Prophet Joseph had been inducted into Masonry that he sensed elements of truth, pieces of antiquity within the Masonic ceremony and then inquired of God." – BYU Professor Robert Millet
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“….during his ministry he was a mayor and the commander of at least two militias (Zion's Camp and the Nauvoo Legion).
We are talking Joseph Smith here. Prophet and Commander? A prophet needs two militias?
Very ambitious……Did he ever run for President?
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"In February, 1844, Smith announced his candidacy for President of the United States, with Sidney Rigdon as his vice-presidential running mate. He also theorized a quasi-republican political system which he termed Theodemocracy and organized the Council of Fifty based upon its principles."
What a character.
Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart you are small potatoes. YOU GOTTA THINK BIG!
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lexonex
You post all this stuff as if it is the first time we in the LDS church has ever seen it with an invitation to me to open my eyes in an attempt to save me from the grips of falsehoods. I've read pretty much all the anti-Mormon literature of substance that has been published. Much of it has a boring sameness to it-newer writers merely rehashing stuff from older writers. You've actually missed a whole bunch of much juicier stuff. In fact I could give you 10 more excellent anti-Mormon positions and rebut the lot of them. Any interested reader can see ALL the rebuttals to all the stuff you post (and all the good stuff you've missed) at http://www.fairlds.org.
You present polygamy as a perversion and thus proof of the falsehood of the church. When it's pointed out to you where polygamy fits in the lives of ancient prophets all written about openly in the Bible - prophets who all Christians I know accept as men of God, you fall silent. I guess it's just an inconvenient truth. You have repeatedly failed to address this issue and then go on to distort LDS doctrine.
It has been made clear in other posts about the similarities between LDS temple rites and Masonic rites. The explanation is so simple - the Masons were the anciently the workers in Solomons temple who, in captivity in Babylon, tried to keep alive the temple rites. These have been altered and partially lost over time. The restoration of the gospel saw the restoration of the full undistorted temple ordinances that stemmed all the way back to the Temple of Solomon but of course again this truth inconvenient to your shock horror narrative |
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When you, and ray and various others hijack a political thread about Romney as a candidate for President, you think you are helping your mission by hopefully turning voters off Romney because of his wierd Mormon beliefs. If only these people really knew how wacko and evil LDS doctrine really was then they'd never vote for him. The reality is actually not like that. Do you not think that these evangelical leaders who endorse Romney haven't read and heard all these same anti-Mormon positions? They most surely have and they make it abundantly clear that they do not believe Mormon doctrine but they are able to separate out a candidate's religious beliefs from his/her policy promises and also look at their track record.
I've said this mutiple times but it hasn't sunk in-all religions have beliefs that seem odd to outsiders whether the various brands of Christianity, Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism, Islam and Hindus. Even within evangelical churches there are doctrinal differences some quite sharp and yet are they really relevant to a candidate for office. For this reason I would venture to say that anyone still reading this thread is somewhat bored by our little esoteric discussion on the finer points of LDS doctrine and wonders why you even bother. If anti-Mormon tactics and literature worked, it would've killed the church years ago. It didn't because people can see through the tactics and the church is capable of very adequately defending itself. Most members dont even waste their time and carry on leading lives modelled on Christ. Most non-LDS see the lives of the LDS they know and realise they are good and happy people not the deluded wack jobs you make us out to be. This, an the lack of intellectual rigor and the downright falsehoods promulgated by our opponents, is why you fail to stop the work of the church |
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Is the mormon church, the one true church?
Yes or no. |
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How interesting the comments are. I'm a better Christian than you-oooo-Ha Ha. Just like a bunch of dumb kids.
Let's get serious! A man is better judged by his actions than his words. Many years ago I voted for Jimmy Carter because "He believed" He was a Christian. He loved his family. Ha Ha--He gave away OUR Panama Canal! It didn't belong to him!
Ask yourself-Who gave away OUR Republic? You don't even know that a Republic is a government by a set of laws--It was not supposed to be a Democracy!!
Greece had Solons Laws--Rome had "The Twelce Tables--America had the Ten Commandments! They are on the walls of both Houses of Congress AND The Supreme Court.
No matter Who you vote for we are going to be part of a One World Government because we are not willing to have our government follow God' Laws.
Great Christians you are.
Sandy |
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Ray
When you answer these questions about polygamy - I'll answer your question about the one true church.
Were Abraham and Jacob's plural wives approved by God? Were they practising false doctrine? Did they fall from grace? |
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While a person's personal theology certainly informs their morality and worldview, it affects different outcomes in different people.
Therefore, on Election Day, rather than obsessing about a person's theology, we examine their voting record, political philosophy, values, and record of achievement.
For example;
Teddy Kennedy & Rick Santorum are both Catholics.
They share the same theological beliefs, however, they don't share the same political beliefs.
Chuck Schumer & Eric Cantor are both Jews.
They share similar theological beliefs, however, they don't share the same political beliefs.
John Edwards & George W. Bush are both Protestant Christians.
They share pretty similar theological beliefs, however, they don't share the same political beliefs.
Harry Reid & Orrin Hatch are both Mormons.
They share the same theological beliefs, however, they don't share the same political beliefs.
As you can see from my examples, people of the same theology can arrive at different political beliefs.
And equally important is that people of DIFFERING THEOLOGY can arrive at SIMILAR political beliefs.
Thus, a premise which holds that because Mitt Romney believes in the Book of Mormon, he therefore cannot be trusted to make sound decisions in the political arena----well, such a thesis simply does not hold water.
By the way, the state of Utah---the state with the most Mormons---happens to vote more consistently Republican than other red states, such as the Bible Belt.
In the pluralist arena of American politics, the bottom line is how a politician governs or votes---not which theology he subscribes to. |
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"I'm not going to try and distance myself in any way, shape or form from my faith. It was the faith of my fathers, of my sons, a long tradition in my family," he said. "I'm, as I say, true blue through and through. And so I accept the teachings of our church, and I do my best to live by those teachings."
"If I'm president of the United States and put my hand on the Bible, I do what the Constitution tells me, what the rule of law tells me," Romney said. "I certainly don't do what leader of my church or any other tells me to do." (Romney: I'm The Consistent Conservative Former Massachusetts Governor Says He Has Steady Republican Credentials WASHINGTON, Oct. 21, 2007)
“Or any other tells me to do”?..... What about the Living God Willard? Will you listen to HIM? So, you are a Mormon because it is a tradition and “faith of my fathers”. Therefore, you “accept the teachings”. Good thing you were not born into a Catholic, Baptist or Hindu family huh? Well, I guess it really would not matter because you would “accept the teachings”.
What does your Spiritual Heart tell you Willard? Or haven’t you found IT? Is your family tradition keeping you from IT? I’m concerned about you Willard. You worry me Willard. |
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“And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.” (Jesus Mark 12; 30)
Honor your family Willard. Don’t worship them.
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“We pray in His name. We teach in His name. We have the communion, or the sacrament we call it, all in His name in remembrance of His atoning sacrifice. We partake of the bread and the water in renewing our covenants we’ve made with Him. When the meeting is concluded we close it in the name of Jesus Christ,” said Elder Ballard. (Mormon Leader Explains Beliefs, Says Mormons are Christians, Not a Cult David M. Bresnahan
October 8, 2007)
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Jesus Matt 7; 22 – 23) |
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He seems to be stuck and needs a little nudge. |
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Were Abraham and Jacob's plural wives approved by God? Were they practising false doctrine? Did they fall from grace?
I'm not sure. |
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Those evangelical leaders who are endorsing Romney will have to give an account one day in front of the Judgement Throne of Christ as to why they endorsed a man for president who as governor facilitated gay marriage even though he could have moved to impeach the activist judges, threatened to fire justices of the peace who would not perform same sex marriage ceremonies, gave Massachusetts a socialist healthcare plan, favored homosexual boy scout leaders, favored abortion his entire career, bragged about being more "pro gay" than Ted Kennedy, forced Catholic Charities to place children with homosexual couples which even Mike Dukakis argued he wouldn't have done, bragged about having the most strict gun control laws in the nation, and who denies the deity of Jesus Christ.
These "evangelical" leaders and other "Christians" likw you Hugh will have to give an account to God as to why they endorsed and evangelized this very devious man who poenly cals Jesus a liar (by denying Hi deity).Hugh you may want to think as a Christian about how Jesus feels about what you are doing selling your soul like Judas to the Devil. If backing a Christ like leader is not important to you Hugh that says a lot of your faith (or lack thereof). man do I feel sorry for you.What profitith a man if he gains the entire world but loses his soul?
Here is the entire truth Romney does not want you to know about him.
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/romney/record/
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"deity of Jesus Christ"
Please Explain............... |
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