Saturday, October 06, 2007
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McCain's Right About "Christian Nation"
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Posted by:
Michael Medved at
1:51 AM
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Presidential candidate John McCain inspired an explosion of controversy with his answer to a question about recent poll results: "I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as Christian nation," the Senator said, but then added: "But I say that in the broadest sense. The lady that lifts her lamp beside the golden door doesn't say, 'I only welcome Christians... But when they come here they know that they are in a nation founded on Christian principals.'"
McCain, in other words, understood that the same leaders who drafted a secular constitution prohibiting a single established religion wanted society at large to remain religions. In his Farewell Address, George Washington declared: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports."
Our Founders believed the nation's enduring Christian faith would protect, rather than threaten, its freedoms - and McCain's comments deserve respect, not condemnation.
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Yes, there were not many economic opportunities in Holland, but the reason they fled ENGLAND was for religious/political freedoms. Unless you consider them Dutch from what, a couple of years living in Holland.
Re: them establishing a theocracy and banishing people. Don't worry, we're coming for you, oh yes...soon...very soon. Muahahahaha!!! |
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i find it amusing how so many people confuse religion with christianity when it comes to this discussion. most of oure fore fathers, at least the ones who wrote the constitution, were diests who would be looked at in askance by the born again christians of today. they would be very very suspect ... lets not forget to place the washington quote in the context and belief of the diests ... his religion.
i love the reference about the statue of liberty ... the poem being written by a shepardic jew. it is also true the pledge of allegiance was written by a baptist minister who was also a socialist. these are by no means the only examples, but they are fine examples of what the constitution can provide for america. our fore fathers gave us the wonderful gift of sweet irony ... now embrace it. |
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>>"Religion" does not equal "Christianity"
That is correct. Religion includes secularism and environmentalism. |
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I forgot to mention one more thing. I am not aware of any law in this country that disallows a candidate the right to run for public office based upon his religion. Have you seen one? Any religious litmus tests have been individual in nature, just like when some secularists will not vote for a religious candidate because they are SOOO far above that. |
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"We also have freedom FROM religion. "
No, only freedom from religious establishment. We are not guaranteed freedom from religious influence. You simply cannot avoid it, separate yourself from it, or pretend you are above it. You are a part of it and neck deep in it, regardless of whether you believe in God or not. It is not the place of the government to unreasonably police religious beliefs in the interests of the state.
In your response, you also cited Article VI. I am keenly aware of this problem of a religious test, especially in light of the fact that as a Mormon, some would deny a candidate for president of my religion a vote because of his religion and it bothers me. However, bother me or not, to take away the rights of all to religious freedom through thought policing, to satisfy the desires of one, is to prohibit the free exercise thereof. It is a delicate balance to be sure and that is why there is controversy. |
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The "Founding Fathers" were commonly Deists, a religious belief that is based on reason and personal experience and that rejects organized religious denominations and "revealed scriptures" of any kind. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism). They could be "religious" and "believe in God" without being "Christian" (the belief in the divinity and message of Jesus of Nazareth), just like many other belief systems that exist in the real world. They were even called atheists in their time.
How can conservatives say the US is a "Christian nation" (Jesus told his followers to give up their families and friends, and he rejected his mother for "the cause") and at the same time claim that they are strong supporters of "family values?" Even Jesus didn't support families!
To kingsXrulz and Alex: We also have freedom FROM religion. John Jay notwithstanding (the southern White Supremacists made the same claim for bigotry; see Jon Meachum's op-ed in Sunday's NYTimes), the US Constitution is a higher authority which Jay took an oath to uphold (too bad he was unfamiliar with it, in spite of his job). Article VI of the US Constitution states "...but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." This includes all elected and appointed officials who serve the "public trust".
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This country was found by religious people who wished to worship God according to the dictates of their own conscience. I believe that that means it includes neither establishing religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof as the Bill of Rights states. Most people forget the second part and merely focus on the establishment clause. It is a neutrality, not an animosity or separation.
Now the question: is this a Christian or a secular nation? Neither. If you select one, you must infringe upon the other. Everyone is free to influence and receive influence from religion or secular religion(everyone has a religion, by the way). Can religious principles then rightly influence government? Of course. How could you ever avoid it? Is it Christian then? Yes, if you are referring to many of the founding principles upon which it is based from the Bible. Is it a secular nation? Yes, and it is based upon the influence of political philosophers such as Hobbes and Locke and other secular philosophers.
The synthesis of religious and secular is the triumph, and is a reason why the secular and religious influences and freedoms are mutually dependent in this country. |
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The poem associated with the French Lady in NY harbor holding her torch aloft for immigrant newcomers was written by Emma Lazarus, a Sephardic Jew. |
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Why does Medved, that miserable self-hating traitor, persist in this Christian nation nonsense? Look if Medved doesn't like being Jewish, let him convert to the Christian denomination of his choice and be done with it already. But please, please stop beating this dead horse over the head. Just shoot the poor horse and let him/her rest in peace. Either Medved is McVain's court Jewish stooge or he must really really want live in a locked ghetto with a yellow star of David on his back in McVain's Christian States of America. |
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As an AMATEUR historian I have run across many professional historians, including one Peter Marshall who wrote in the late 1970's a book entitled "The Light and the Glory". He was the chaplain for the United States Senate, therefore I will give him some credibility, although I had some doubts about some of his conclusions.
I usually look for multiple sources for historical information, the closer to the original the better.
For this reason I have found the diaries of John Adams, the letters of T. Jefferson and the speeches of Patrick Henry to be quite revealing on these matters. A thorough reading of these men, and many others of the era will reveal that although SOME were not "religious" they all were deeply influenced by the thoughts of the religious leaders of their day, especially those of the "nonconformist" persuasions.
We should all take the time to read their writings IN CONTEXT before presuming to tell others what they believed. |
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Lilly,
Since I had never heard of David Barton I did as you suggested and looked him up. What I found is that your bio on him is incorrect. He did not get his degree from Pensacola but from Oral Roberts University. He also has some honors including one from Pansacola as well as one from the Daughters of the American Revolution.
He is only three years older than I am so I doubt his writings had much influence on my teachers in the public schools in Iowa. Yet I remember it being emphasized then that the founders used Christian principles in their ideas about the government of our nation.
Since you say he is not a historian with such thin credentials, what are your credentials for assessing his? |
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After some clever "subject" titles you really went too far; I think you know which one I'm talkn about. Apparently my influence wasn't enough. |
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Why don't those of you who believe in JC and Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy stick your noses in the bible and quit pretending you know anything. |
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Leonard Nolt writes: "I think the best way to determine if the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation..."
Any one who thinks the founders wanted the Constitution to "establish a Christian Nation" is a fool. However, anyone who denies that the founders wrote the Constitution in such a way as to PRESERVE this as a Christian nation is a bigger fool.
This country was a Christian nation BEFORE the writing of the founding documents, it remained a Christian nation AFTER the writing of the Declaration, the Constitution and Bill of Rights and we remain a Christian nation TO THIS DAY. If that offends you, you can (and will) deny it. It's still the truth.
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Even President 'activist judges legislating from the bench' Bush, if he were to be consistent in the application of his ideology, might have a problem with ANY judge (let alone the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court) telling the people of our nation what their "duty" is when it comes to who we elect. He might also note that in this bastion of freedom called America we prefer the terms 'representatives' or 'leaders' to "rulers".
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The USA fought wars with Muslim pirates in North Africa in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. At the conclusion of the First Barbary War President John Adams approved a treaty which was ratified by the United States Senate by a unanimous vote after hearing the full treaty. The treaty states, in part:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Let us please remember that America was founded on religious freedom and separation of church and state by founders who were mostly 18th century Enlightenment rationalists. |
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The idea that we were founded as a Christian nation was largely invented by David Barton in his books and papers, which have been discredited by professional historians even as they have been widely quoted by such as James Dobson. Barton is NOT a historian. He has a Bachelor's degree in Religious Education from Pensacola Christian College and no credentials at all as a historian. He has admitted fabricating and distorting the words of our Founding Fathers and giving bogus "proof". He spearheads the Christian Historical Revisionist movement, dedicated to creating a believable myth that we were founded as a Christian nation and must now "return" to (what never was) The objective of this movement is the establishment of Bible-based in the United States. Barton established the company that publishes his materials (Wallbuilders). Do some googling. |
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How can you say we are a Christian nation, when we dont believe God, much less obey Him or stand up for Him? All you have to do is look at the prevalent sin in America done in the name of tolerence or 'our rights'. God, though, is getting ready to show us what is right, He promised it, and He does not lie. |
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but have to agree with him completely. Anyone that doubts the christian influence on our founding fathers, has obviously read far more of Time Magazine, than the actual writings of our founding fathers.........They did write you know. |
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Sometimes, it is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt....
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." -John Jay, First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court
End of debate.
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sucks. Like all religions, it ruins the country in which it is prevalent.
Religion = War
peace |
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When the first newcomers arrived in America their motivation was greed (riches). Columbus, Jamestown were failures because of this. When the Pilgrims arrived their motivations were different, they sought freedom and communion w/ God.
While it's true that wrongs did take place, to ignore the benefits of the establishment of the United States of America (re: the impact on mankind) is to blind oneself. |
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I think the best way to determine if the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation is to simply look at how the early citizens of this nation treated Native Americans and Africans. The Native Americans were killed, driven off their land and most tribes eventually became extinct. Africans were kidnapped to be sold into slavery. Is that the way Christians treat other people?
Leonard Nolt |
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