Friday, July 10, 2009
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Mancession
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Posted by:
Jillian Bandes at
4:27 PM
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The disparity in the number of jobs women have lost and the number of jobs men have lost during the recession is striking. Eighty percent of the layoffs have hit the gents, topping 3 million jobs in all.
The lovely Christina Hoff Sommers comments on this disparity with her typically keen and engaging commentary, noting that women's groups were partially responsible. They launched a lobbying campaign to commandeer more of the stimulus dollars towards professions that were female-dominated; they felt that since Obama was focusing on male-dominated professions (because they were the hardest hit by the recession) that the money was discriminatory.
There is great room for debate over the effectiveness of government stimulus programs, and over how much impact a focused "shovel-ready" spending program would have achieved by now. What is not debatable is that changes in the American economy and workforce are favoring service sectors where women are abundant and that the current severe contraction is centered on sectors where men, especially working-class men, predominate. That an emergency economic recovery program should be designed with gender in mind is itself remarkable. That, in current circumstances, it should be designed to "skew" employment further towards women is disturbing and ominous.
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Men expect to get paid more, and if you are a greedy corporate bloodsucker, (oh, yeah, most of them are!) of course, you lay off the men first, because they get paid more... usually have seniority, too.
Yup,welcome to Corporate America, where you destroy the middle class and then wonder why you don't have any customers for your products!
Obviously, these guys never heard the story about the goose that laid the golden egg. |
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Obviously, these guys never heard the story about the goose that laid the golden egg.
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Wasn't that out of Union Handbook somewhere? LOL |
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Right, unions that created a middle class, ended child labor, built the greatest civilization known to man...
And Corporate America has been trying to destroy it for the last 50 years... Good show. |
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Eugene falsely asserts;
Right, unions that created a middle class, ended child labor, built the greatest civilization known to man...
They were brought to you by the Free Market and capitilism .
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And Corporate America has been trying to destroy it for the last 50 years... Good show.
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No, I believe it is contained on pg 2 of the Union handbook......"KILL THE GOOSE, KILL THE GOOSE, KILL THE GOOSE".
You should really read your handbook! |
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They did kill the golden goose ,look at the auto industry . |
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I have relatives who work inside the upper echelon of organized labor. Yeah---I know, it renders me as complicit with the "evildoers".
But my personal stories pertaining to this subject really do not matter that much, as tawdry as they.
One needs not look any further than Kalifornia to see the damage done by unions.
The prison unions alone have contributed to bringing that state to its knees.
Anyone disputing this simply diminishes their credibility.
The unions representing teachers and nurses have done similarly.
This does not mean in any way that the members of those unions are bad people. They are simply opportunists in allowing an organization to do their bidding.
Henry Waxman (democrat-California) just released his new book last week. In it he corroborates this dilemma his state is in.
This falderal with the notion of "card check" is another power grabbing tactic of organized labor. It flies in the face of our idea towards democracy. To institute a system where "BIG BROTHER" union bosses are looking over your shoulder to see how you vote on their business is heinous behavior. And is further proof of exactly how spurious these unions are.
Unions did some good in the early 20th century. Their time has come and gone. The good they've done has long since died.
To witness posts by some about how these organized labor groups continue to provide legitimate service to their members is laughable and incredibly misguided.
California is simply ONE example of the mess they've helped cause.
Their is no disputing this Truth. |
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They did kill the golden goose ,look at the auto industry .
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They helped do in the Steel Industry too. |
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Unions did some good in the early 20th century. Their time has come and gone. The good they've done has long since died.
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Agreed. Most, if not all the good that they did during that timeframe has now been translated into Federal Labor Relations Law. Pretty much done with what they should do. Now leave the employees and the companies alone to work out any differences they have. |
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..tiger in this country for thirty years. while there are definitely examples of organized labor undermining the macro--public employee unions is one, auto-workers is another--castigating unions is a misdirection. it does not get to the origins of our current recession.
THAT is a function of natural cyclical downturns combined with a generation of idiotic business and political leadership, which left the economy hollowed-out and ill-equipped to contend with a severe deflation. we have fat times and we have lean, but provisions were not made during those fat times to buffer us through the lean.
quite the contrary, everyone thought the fat times were a function of a triumphal, Reaganist spirit. Boomer conservatives in particular broke their arms patting themselves on the back. our economy went from a wealth-creating service economy to a wealth-parsing finance economy. speculative bubbles in the asset markets concealed a serious erosion in wages and purchasing power. companies levered-up dangerously to increase ROE. government, supposedly a bulwark against the animal appetites, capitulated to them--corporations became the modern political machines.
the idea unions are at the heart of the deflation is ridiculous. no doubt organized labor adds a strata of inefficiency to our economy--no doubt about that. but our problems are much more fundamental which, at root, have to do with a misguided worldview. that, combined with the credit workout, is being sorted through right now. also, we are seeing a secular shift of purchasing power to more productive populations. i would guess that it is going to take another 3-5 years. but when it is done, we will be in for an extended period of genuine growth and expansion. |
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and it should come as no surprise that their policies would reap these results. For the last 45 years, they have been attempting to end the patriarchy, and instead institute a matriarchy, here in America. Several books, and many columns have been written concerning this corrosive and damaging attempt. At the heart of it all, is a very deep seated, and virulent hatred of a patriarchal God. The mere mention of Jesus Christ sends the girl party members, into fits. Because they know that what they want runs counter to the plan and purpose of a loving God. Everything the girl party does, is a desperate, almost frantic attempt to eliminate and then change Western Civilization. They have a better chance of taking a flyswatter, and with it, stop the Sun from rising tomorrow morning. |
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BK
They did kill the golden goose ,look at the auto industry .
Me-What killed the auto industry in this country was greed, greed and oh, yeah, greed.
While the rest of the world was going towards smaller greener cars everyone wanted to buy, Detroit STILL insisted that we needed huge gas hogs. Heck, that SUV ain't big enough for you, buy a HUMMER! A bigger car will compensate for your uhhh... shortcomings. (Lot of white guys with small units driving big cars).
But, yeah, blame it on the union guys who were actually making a living wage... not the guys making the 8 figure salaries making all the awful decisions about which models to make.
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"Agreed. Most, if not all the good that they did during that timeframe has now been translated into Federal Labor Relations Law. Pretty much done with what they should do. Now leave the employees and the companies alone to work out any differences they have."
Me- And how can they do that if the employee has no real recourse other than to sue? Please.
The problem is that the American working person is backsliding. Give you one example. Layoffs.
Back in the old days, when a company laid people off, they had to rehire the same people at the same wage when things got better. The union insisted. Now they lay people off, and hire new people at lower wages. Wages go down, standards of living go down-- oh, yeah, eventually, profits go down, too. Killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
70% of the economy is still working people doing consumer things. When they can't afford to do those things becuase some AHOLE in a suit outsourced their jobs to China or replaced them with people fresh out of college or hired some illegal alien, they aren't buying your products.
The Auto industry is a great example. No one HAS to buy a new car. You can always get a few more miles out of the old one... Car sales are an example of a healthy economy.
Henry Ford (that socialist!) once said, "If my employees can't afford to buy my products, I don't have a business." |
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The time for Unions are gone. We had Unions in the Steel Industry. They had "No Layoff" clause. Stupid! Now they wish it was just a layoff.
You can't replace a 40+ person with a younger one unless there is cause.
Hell, companies have to pay unemployment when an employee quits.
Nope...Unions should move on. No company will let a "good" worker go. Be like shooting yourself in the head.
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Have you ever tried to haul a trailer of hay with a Prius? |
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"Because [girl party members] know that what they want runs counter to the plan and purpose of a loving God."
So basically your "loving god" loves males more than females? Or are you projecting your own deep-seated doubts and fears onto him? |
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BK- The time for Unions are gone. We had Unions in the Steel Industry. They had "No Layoff" clause. Stupid! Now they wish it was just a layoff.
Me- No, what they wish is that they had a government that protected American steel from dumping by Japan...
BK- You can't replace a 40+ person with a younger one unless there is cause...
Me- BS. Happened to me. Despite six years of fantastic reviews, I was put in a dead end position while the gal who was the daughter of some Corporate big-wig's friend was put in a purchasing position even though she had NO experience.
BK- Hell, companies have to pay unemployment when an employee quits.
Me- In what state? Usually, they don't.
BK- Nope...Unions should move on. No company will let a "good" worker go. Be like shooting yourself in the head.
Me- Exactly my point. The Corporate Mother-F****ers have been shooting this country in the head for decades... |
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Axe
Have you ever tried to haul a trailer of hay with a Prius?
Me- Nope. And if we were talking about just guys who have a valid need for pickups, I wouldn't have an issue. But detroit told us we ALL needed pickups because they figured it would be too much work to develop fuel efficient cars to compete with the Japanese and Germans. |
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That makes me feel better that I am allowed to have my truck. |
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Axe
That makes me feel better that I am allowed to have my truck.
Me- You guys just don't get it, and I doubt you ever will.
Why should the rest of us pay for your irresponsibility? We make up 5% of the world's population, and consume 26% of it's energy. The result of all those people who just HAVE to drive a bigger car than they need is that we import 7 million barrels of oil a day on top of the 10 million we produce domestically. That's money going to the world's worst dictatorships.
The War on Terror will be remembered as the one where the US funded BOTH sides.
Had we invested in more public trasportation infrastructure, more fuel efficient cars, cleaner technology, we wouldn't be over the barrel we are today. We have kept hundreds of billions in this country.
But keep sitting on your porch with your shootin' iron and your pickup, and watch for those gummit black helicopters...
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My irresponsibilities,good luck getting all you need without trucks, you are just ridiculous to talk to, how can you keep living with how shiiiity this world is, how can you continue putting up with all that you have to. Pull the plug, drop out, or whatever people like you do, you are so sad. |
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Very simple. I try to fix what is wrong...
The first step is realizing you have a problem. The fact is the rest of the world does just fine without consuming energy at the rate we do. Just like the rest of the world has single payer health care and live longer.
But I think it would probably kill someone like you to say, "Damn. Those foreigners are doing something right! Maybe we should copy that!"
Sorry, as I say, I'm 47, and remember we had these exact same problems and worse in the 1970's, when we should have realized that our dependence on oil was a vulnerability and did something about it. Instead, we had the oil industry and the auto industry fight every step of the way...
Imagine, if you would, had the auto industry in the 1980's worked on matching the Japanese for fuel efficiency. Imagine if we invested in bullet trains and effective mass transit. |
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Sister-in-law in England for over 20 years tells me how their healthcare sucks, friends from Canada say the same. We can try to get greener to slow down global warming it wouldn't do a thing since china and india won't do anything about theirs, maybe we should go to war to get them to change their minds. |
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Once again, you seem to have had some bad experiences. I don't know you so maybe it was your fault and maybe not. I don't know. I just know from my experience, which is little longer than yours.
Companies pay when anyone quits...At least in the state of Indiana and I believe every state. It's called no-fault. If an employee quits and you challenge, the comment is that you share the unemployemnt with the new employee cause he was trying to "better" himself.
The Corporate comment is simply nonsense. These corps hired alot of people and alot of people made money off these corps. Again with your negativity.
I call your statements "retarded" but then that's a condesending term. |
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Sorry, as I say, I'm 47, and remember we had these exact same problems and worse in the 1970's, when we should have realized that our dependence on oil was a vulnerability and did something about it. Instead, we had the oil industry and the auto industry fight every step of the way...
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That would make you 8 and you were worried about dependence on oil. Another way to look at it would be that if we only had drilled (the Dems said it would take at least 10 years) we would have already been independent of foreign oil.
Imagine, if you would, had the auto industry in the 1980's worked on matching the Japanese for fuel efficiency. Imagine if we invested in bullet trains and effective mass transit.
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Yup, they would have built small cars (wait..they did)that nobody wanted to buy. Bullet trains? Is that like Amtrac that's bankrupt cause nobody wanted to use them. Different culture. Believe me.. "ONE SIZE DON'T FIT ALL". |
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Axe
Sister-in-law in England for over 20 years tells me how their healthcare sucks, friends from Canada say the same. We can try to get greener to slow down global warming it wouldn't do a thing since china and india won't do anything about theirs, maybe we should go to war to get them to change their minds.
Me- Great idea. Why don't you enlist to do that and get some of your NeoCon chickenhawk buddies to go with you.
I'm always amazed by cons who "know someone in Canada" who says the health care sucks over there, but oddly I never hear a Canadian say that... Oh, yeah, they also live longer, have less babies die in infancy, don't get bankrupted by medical crisis, and spend half as much as we do per person...
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Sounds like your calling me a liar ,that I don't have a sister-in-law in England,or i don't know anyone in Canada, hey thats ok. i don't think i will be volunteering for the service again seeing I'm 58 now, but I figured what your problem is, your not happy unless your piiissing and moaning about something,so have a terrible day. |
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"Once again, you seem to have had some bad experiences. I don't know you so maybe it was your fault and maybe not. I don't know. I just know from my experience, which is little longer than yours."
Me- Guy, you've said you've been a rancher... how many offices and factories have you worked in?
"Companies pay when anyone quits...At least in the state of Indiana and I believe every state. It's called no-fault. If an employee quits and you challenge, the comment is that you share the unemployemnt with the new employee cause he was trying to "better" himself."
Me- In Illinois, if you quit, you get nothing, and employers can challenge your right to unemployment. Happened to me in 1996, where I worked for a place for 3 weeks, developed an allergic reaction to whatever they made there, and they challenged my eligibility...(They lost, of course)
BSC -The Corporate comment is simply nonsense. These corps hired alot of people and alot of people made money off these corps. Again with your negativity.
Me- They also closed a lot of plants, driven down wages, and engaged in the predatory lending practices, all of which have brought on this current recession. I'm all for putting a few of them on trial.
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BSC- That would make you 8 and you were worried about dependence on oil. Another way to look at it would be that if we only had drilled (the Dems said it would take at least 10 years) we would have already been independent of foreign oil.
Me- Actually the first Oil shock happened when I was 12, (After the Arabs cut us off after the Yom Kippur war.) The second happened when I was 17, and my Dad had to put a lock on his gas cap to keep people from siphoning it out.
And once again, drilling doesn't solve the problem. At best, it delays the inevitable... You realize much of Alaska's oil actually ends up in Japan, don't you? Not enough refineries on the West coast to process it all.
BSC- Yup, they would have built small cars (wait..they did)that nobody wanted to buy. Bullet trains? Is that like Amtrac that's bankrupt cause nobody wanted to use them. Different culture. Believe me.. "ONE SIZE DON'T FIT ALL".
Me- Well, then we need to change the culture.
The problem with AmTrack is that it was never designed to be what the Bullet Trains were designed to do... They are slow trains, not enough coverage, poorly funded.
As for the cars, yup, Detroit came up with small cars like the Pinto, the Chevette, etc. In short, they didn't care about the market for small cars. Only losers buy those. Well, who's the loser now, a--holes? |
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None.The ranch has been in the family over a hundred years. |
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None.The ranch has been in the family over a hundred years.
Me- Thank you for proving my point. So you've never had to work in the office where you got into trouble because the gal who is blowing the Regional VP says she didn't authorize something when she did.
(True story. Sadly.)
Sadly, when you have a situation where you have no real recourse, you have to put up with crap like this. Having to prove your talent and intelligence to people who have none.
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That is sad corporate life is that way, office politics are ridiculous. I'll tell you I could not work in that environment, like I always say the best boss in the world is yourself. I also know I love working outside too much, being in my office feels like I'm not working that hard. |
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Yup ,it was greed ,greedy unions and legacy costs . too much to overcome the ceo's salaries paled by comparison They were short term the legacy costs grew and grew destroying the companies profitability . Question for you, what about the union bosses 8 figure salaries and vegas junkets ect...? |
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axe
Yup ,it was greed ,greedy unions and legacy costs . too much to overcome the ceo's salaries paled by comparison They were short term the legacy costs grew and grew destroying the companies profitability . Question for you, what about the union bosses 8 figure salaries and vegas junkets ect...?
Me- Do you even bother to research before you waste my time...
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070413/ AUTO01/704130353
WASHINGTON -- UAW President Ron Gettelfinger got a 2.3 percent raise in 2006, a year after taking a pay cut, a federal report released Thursday showed.
Gettelfinger earned $145,126 and received $13,405 in allowances and official expenses for a total compensation of $158,530. His 2006 salary was still slightly less than he made in 2004 -- $145,466 -- after he and other officers took a 2.5 percent pay cut in 2005.
Wow- So the UAW president gets a low SIX figure salary... Now, how about the Chairman of GM.
http://www.forbes.com/static/pvp2005/LIRSOX2.html
G Richard Wagoner Jr
Total Compensation: $8.5 mil5 (#159)
5-Year Compensation Total: $22,221 thou
Now, keep in mind, this is the POS Obama had to fire because he was running the company into the ground.
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Axe
Sounds like your calling me a liar ,that I don't have a sister-in-law in England,or i don't know anyone in Canada, hey thats ok.
Me- Take it as you wish. I actually went to another board and asked some REAL Canadians about their system, and here's what I got.
"My wife was driving home one day last year and started experiencing chest pain. She knew there was a medical clinic on the route, and stopped in to see a doctor. After being rushed in to an exam room, the doctor gave her some aspirin and called an ambulance to take her to the nearest hospital.
Within a couple of hours, her bloodwork and EKG results had more or less ruled out cardiac issues, but they still kept her overnight for observation.
She saw one of the top cardiologists in Nova Scotia the next evening, who booked her for a stress test immediately, which she passed with flying colours. Turns out it was a strain in the chest wall muscles.
The out-of-pocket cost to us for all of this? $0.00"
And this from a Brit...
"I had cancer 16 years ago. There was no bill for my treatment (at the point of need, of course). "
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Written by David Gratzer:
"My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks."
One of thousands of stories that lead many Canadians to use private care in Canada. They are popping up all over.
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thats reported salary for the union boss ,kickbacks and perks are not reported . as for the ceo maybe they did not pay him enough after all GM's foreign sales did quite well ,no legacy costs to kill them off . |
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"the legacy costs grew and grew destroying the companies profitability"
And the reason they grew and grew is that the company didn't FUND them at the time it INCURRED them. Every payday, workers were receiving their pay in two different ways: a current check and a promise of future pension and healthcare. But the company wasn't actually paying the "promise" part of this; they weren't putting the appropriate amount of money into an account of some kind. They were taking that money as current profits and hoping that the company would be in such good shape years in the future that paying the pension/healthcare costs would be a snap.
Now the bill has come due, and those old profits are long since spent for yachts and shareholder dividends.
Simply put, GM's MANAGEMENT destroyed their current profits by taking bigger profits 30 years ago. Of course, those managers are long since retired and living in the south of France on their estates. |
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Simply put, GM's MANAGEMENT destroyed their current profits by taking bigger profits 30 years ago. Of course, those managers are long since retired and living in the south of France on their estates.
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or because of high legacy costs that GM couldn't afford, they robbed Peter to pay Paul. If not, GM would have been bankrupt 30 years ago. |
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absolutely right on your distinction between incurring and funding liabilities. business leaders made wildly irresponsible growth assumptions in discounting their pension obligations. and according to these tools, that's the fault of these dirty old unions (who once served their purpose, but now have brought the economy down--along with Barney Frank and the Community Reinvestment Act). |
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You are right ,the bad deals forced upon management during the 1960's created the legacy mess . Unions do more harm than good for workers creating artificial wage standards that keep employers from hiring . Davis Bacon act is a good example of how prounion legislation has killed competion and reduced the number of jobs . |
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You are right ,the bad deals forced upon management during the 1960's created the legacy mess
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I don't allow management to be blameless because they caved to these demands. They should have joined together as in the 50's and took a strike. However, just like the steel industry, legacy costs were paid in full until they became to costly. Then it became a choice between paying these in full or staying in operation. |
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pat lib says ,that's the fault of these dirty old unions (who once served their purpose, but now have brought the economy down--along with Barney Frank and the Community Reinvestment
You got that mostly right . the unions never did serve a purpose . |
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well, as they say, if you have enjoyed your weekend, thank organized labor. |
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You won't like this one either:
"UAW’s 1945 Strike Began GM Downfall
Within days of the end of World War II, the United Auto Workers demanded a 30% increase in wages. When denied their demands, the UAW went on strike for 113 days."
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axe
thats reported salary for the union boss ,kickbacks and perks are not reported .
Me- Right. So exactly how many perqs could this guy have gotten? Somehow, I don't think it's 8.5 million's worth.
Clay- as for the ceo maybe they did not pay him enough after all GM's foreign sales did quite well ,no legacy costs to kill them off .
Me- What foreign sales? GM does a good job at selling TRUCKS overseas, but for cars, they can't compete in Europe or Asia, mostly because they can't hit the fuel economy standards.
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You won't this additional one either:
"GM had about 240,000 workers the day it filed for bankruptcy but had
responsibility for the health care of more than 1 million people and
owed pensions to more than 650,000. Even with GM's very real product and
work-rule strides of recent years, these obligations made bankruptcy
inevitable."
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090612/OPINION01/906120334 |
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bk
You are right ,the bad deals forced upon management during the 1960's created the legacy mess . Unions do more harm than good for workers creating artificial wage standards that keep employers from hiring . Davis Bacon act is a good example of how prounion legislation has killed competion and reduced the number of jobs .
Me- The average wage for a UAW worker is $28.00 an hour, or about 60,000 a year. YOu can maybe support a family of four on that...
Seriously, you guys are so out of touch with regular working people, you wonder why you got voted out last year.
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"GM had about 240,000 workers the day it filed for bankruptcy but had responsibility for the health care of more than 1 million people and owed pensions to more than 650,000."
You're missing the point. If GM had put pension and healthcare obligations into an independent monetary fund when they incurred them, GM wouldn't have ANY responsibility for them now. The huge rise in health care costs and the economic crash would have hit the fund and not the company. The retired workers would probably be suffering because of that, but the company wouldn't
GM management of 30 years ago gambled that not only would their sales and profits stay high, but that health care costs wouldn't go up as fast as they have and that the economy would stay sound. They gambled, the current management lost. |
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You're missing the point. If GM had put pension and healthcare obligations into an independent monetary fund when they incurred them, GM wouldn't have ANY responsibility for them now
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No, you're missing the point. You have never run a business. You have to pay what comes first. Pensions came later.....other obligations came first. If those weren't paid, then there would be no GM or pensions. |
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"You have to pay what comes first. Pensions came later.....other obligations came first."
Other companies have managed to survive while fully funding their pension and healthcare benefits at the time they're incurred. GM put profits and executive bonuses ahead of doing that, and that strategy doesn't work in the long term. The executives of the time knew that "in the long term" they'd be retired.
"If those weren't paid, then there would be no GM or pensions."
How do you know that? Show me the figures that say that if GM had fully funded their legacy obligations, they would have gone bankrupt. You actually have no idea if that's true, but it fits your union hatreds. |
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Other companies have managed to survive while fully funding their pension and healthcare benefits at the time they're incurred
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What other companies the size of GM.
Munck again: The executives of the time knew that "in the long term" they'd be retired.
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Executives don't get their pensions from the same fund.
Munck continues: You actually have no idea if that's true, but it fits your union hatreds.
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I don't hate any unions, just call em as I see them. I was in a union and I negotiated against Unions. Know Unions rather well. You? |
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"What other companies the size of GM."
What does the size of the company have to do with it?
"Executives don't get their pensions from the same fund."
Huh? There was no pension fund. That's the point. The 30-years-ago executives knew they WOULDN'T BE BLAMED FOR THE COLLAPSE OF THE COMPANY because they'd be retired.
"Know Unions rather well. You?"
I haven't said anything about unions. |
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How do you know that? Show me the figures that say that if GM had fully funded their legacy obligations, they would have gone bankrupt. You actually have no idea if that's true, """but it fits your union hatreds."""""
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Your statement!!!!! I think it's time for your nap. Nurse..come get Bob..it's nap time. |
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supported my family and took care of my parents on much less than 60k a year , put 2 kids through college with no goverment help on less than 100k a year .simple rule and anyone can get rich 10% tithe God will bless you ,10% blow need to have some fun ,10% save cash counts when times are tight , 30% reinvest in skills, schooling,another buisness on the side ect.... ,live on the 40% remainder this is after tax income. quit whining about some one making 60k a year thats a good life and you know it .WHINER |
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that is a pretty good credo. sometimes, unexpected expenses intervene, but if one does it as you did it, living frugally and within his means, the likelihood is that he will do well in America. |
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thanks ,it works for me and allowed my wife and i to get through her cancer 3 years ago ,again with no goverment assistance. |
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"Your statement!!!!!"
My statement isn't about unions, it's about YOU. |
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My statement isn't about unions, it's about YOU.
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We can go around on this but it's clear you are either insane or off your meds. I think I'll just dismiss you. |
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my uncle used to tell me that in a community, the smart half has to look after the not-so-smart half. if all citizens were thrifty and virtuous as you apparently are, then there would be no need for public sector intervention in the life of the economy. unfortunately, most men are not angels. some families are little more than savage. and so it falls on human beings to find ways to protect the civilized order from these folks. the right thinks prisons and maybe religion is all you need. the left looks for a more comprehensive solution. our way is a little more expensive upfront, but longer term, it is the best way.
here is the thing i think you conservatives need to think about: smaller government does not mean more efficient government. government is inherently inefficient, garnering 65 cents of value for every dollar spent. maybe you can stretch that to 70 cents. maybe it deteriorates to 60 cents, or 50 cents even. but in the end, the small government vs. big government argument is not an efficient government vs. inefficient government argument. it is a regulated vs. unregulated argument. and if one thinks people can just be left to their own devices, then one is, in my opinion, touchingly naive in his assessment of the goodness in men's souls.
it is always a balance between public and private, democracy and capitalism, the civic interest and the interests of free enterprise. and how to strike that balance is what the argument is all about--it is the origin of our two party system. but if the experience of the last thirty years teach anything, it is that we do not buy efficiency in whittling down government--we only open tracts of civil society to animal appetites and morally debasing instincts.
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"I think I'll just dismiss you."
That's probably your best strategy at this point. |
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That's probably your best strategy at this point.
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Yup, mind over matter...
I DON'T MIND AND YOU DON'T MATTER! |
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I do not believe in the goodness of mens souls.i believe most act in their self interest irregardless of anyone else.Liberals are the ones that seem to believe in the perfectability of man , If only the playing were level, if only the schools were better ,if there were no more poor so forth and so on we could have Utopia.Blithely ignoring the law of unintended consequences . i do not believe in the effiancy of goverment at any size ,it is needed but goverment should be kept to the absolute minimum needed for a reasonably civilized society. More than that is tyrany . |
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PULL!
"supported my family and took care of my parents on much less than 60k a year , put 2 kids through college with no goverment help on less than 100k a year .simple rule and anyone can get rich 10% tithe God will bless you ,10% blow need to have some fun ,10% save cash counts when times are tight , 30% reinvest in skills, schooling,another buisness on the side ect.... ,live on the 40% remainder this is after tax income. quit whining about some one making 60k a year thats a good life and you know it .WHINER "
Me- Hey, I have no problem with someone making 60K a year. We all should. That's my point. You have a healthy society when you have a prosperous middle class.
In the period after WWII, we had a prosperous middle class. The guys who fought that war came back, joined unions, demanded decent wages and got them, and proceeded to build a pretty decent society.
Since, oh, 1980 or so, the goal of Corporations have been to dismantle that middle class so a few rich a--holes can get bigger salaries. And what they fail to realize is that when you don't have that, you don't have customers. 70% of the economy is still consumer driven.
Oh, yeah, 10% for God. Uh, what does God need your money for? He's freakin' God.
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You are as stupid as anyone i have ever seen outside of an institution. I just handed you the keys to wealth and you continue to whine about everyone else. poor wittle axehole the evil corporations are keeping him down . man up whiner the world belongs to those who claim their share iregardless of their station in life. |
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I take it back your not a whiner you are a woosie and a coward. |
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you write: "i do not believe in the effiancy of goverment at any size ,it is needed but goverment should be kept to the absolute minimum needed for a reasonably civilized society. More than that is tyrany ."
that is the platitude, of course. the issue is: WHAT is needed to maintain a reasonably civilized society. on that one, your team came up empty. it is a kind of childishness, in my opinion, that thinks civilization just takes care of itself, like some kind of spontaneous order. civilization cannot be attained on the cheap, and the absence of civilization is barbarism. it is very easy for men to degenerate into the law of the jungle, where might makes right. there are examples of it all over the world. civilization is a thin tissue, one that takes centuries to build and which can be lost in a generation or two. government, and the taxes that pays for it, is a necessary but not sufficient bulwark against the natural descent into savagery.
we do not argue the perfectability of man. we argue that man is so imperfect, that without checks and balances--even on business itself--men become animals and all the benefits of civilization evaporate. these years and decades of Republican ascendancy prove our point. |
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Far from it we have increased goverment at unprecedented rate since FDR and are the worse for it .Lets look at a simple example. Seat belts ,everyone agrees that they are a good idea ,but do they actually save lives ? There is virtually no difference in the number of deaths pre seatbelt law and current . drivers feel a false sense of security with seatbelts on and drive more agressively and wind up having an accident. the seat belt laws allow the state to increase their revenue through ticketing ,allow police officers to stop and check vehicles without probable cause and a ticket allows insurance companies to charge a higher rate so they give grants to police departments to insure that seatbelt laws are enforced a facist arrangement at best . the only loser in the deal is john q public the victim of greedy goverment and corporate entanglements. Is anyones life better here? |
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Accurately. In the old cross-hairs. Pluperfect.
He's a lout, a loathsome coward and a verminous sewer dwelling cretin. (*No insensitivity to mongoloid folks intended.*) |
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as the other Black Hole of Need that you're jousting with is simply...well...vastly NEEDY.
:-) |
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axe
You are as stupid as anyone i have ever seen outside of an institution. I just handed you the keys to wealth and you continue to whine about everyone else. poor wittle axehole the evil corporations are keeping him down . man up whiner the world belongs to those who claim their share iregardless of their station in life.
Me- Right. Because giving 10% of your wealth to an invisible sky pixie always works...
And I'll bet you know lots of people IN institutions... do they know you are off your meds. |
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i'm kinda busy right now, but as you have bothered to engage civilly, let me quickly respond.
my view on seat-belts is from the standpoint of macro costs. is there a significant savings to be obtained in the rule? is it being used by police to browbeat and harass citizens? if the answer to the first is yes and the second is no, then i don't have a problem with the law. i say that as one who is endlessly reminded by my wife and kid to buckle-up.
let me put this to you. suppose we could design intelligent hiways, where cars could travel at 60mph just a few feet apart from each other. suppose it would dispose of traffic jams, but it would also mean relinquishing control of your vehicle at times to a central authority. i would not have any problem with such a system.
it is about seeing yourself as part of a larger picture. as someone who grew up in a city and in a decent family, it is second-nature for me to see my individuality as relative to the bigger picture. i do not come first, and if i have to endure minor annoyances for the sake of broader order and civilization, i'll do it gladly. |
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My point with the seatbelts is simple ,there is no savings because they do not save lives. Much like goverment mandateded airbags they often kill those they misguidedly intend to protect. If people wish to buy safer cars they will pick a volvo over a tricked out dodge charger that will run 180 mph . i am for speed limits,dui laws ect... because they serve to protect others from each other as i see it a legitimate function of goverment .Goverment oversteps its authority when it seeks to protect a person from themselves or when it seeks some sort of social justice nonsense such as affirmitive action ,title nine in womens sports ect... |
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it's worked well enough that i now tithe 40%and live on 10% . give it a try |
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whatever else about title 9, it has helped create a generation of Atalantan women--self confident and talented girls, girls who learn teamwork and character and don't get knocked up by the first sweet-talking boy who comes around. i don't think that is chickenfeed. i think it is a good thing, a just thing, a thing that confers massive benefits to our country. among other things, we have the best female athletes in the world. and that inspires our males to higher levels of achievement as well.
as for protecting people from themselves, on principle you are right. but the principle has to be balanced against other principles--in a kind of macro--to ensure that there are no prohibitive broader costs to an individual's stupidity. |
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Omn title nine I did not wish to leave the impression that I am anti womens sports my issue with title nine is its implementation destroyed a lot of mens programs. It was an unintended consequence and as the father of a very good female athlete I acknowledge the good title nine has done . My issue is that it was a one size fits all solution that did as much harm as good . I would have prefered a middle school high school emphasis for at least 10 years . womens collegiate programs still have issues finding enough athletes and while there is no shortage of male athletes there is now a shortage of programs available for them . trying to cure a wriong with another wrong serves no one. |
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Pat lib says; we have the best female athletes in the world .
I hate to be the one to tell you We don't. We have some of them but we are losing ground . |
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Patriotic Liberal writes: Sunday, July, 12, 2009 11:02 AM
Clay Allison
well, as they say, if you have enjoyed your weekend, thank organized labor.
Arch says.
Pl. I bet all those steel industry union members are enjoying their weekends. They bankrupted the big steel companies and now have no job to retire from. Imagine that for all those GM and Chrysler Goons who have wrecked the auto industry. It gasps for its last breath as we post! |
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axehole
it's worked well enough that i now tithe 40%and live on 10% . give it a try
Me- Right... Honestly, it sounds like you are seriously co-dependent on the church... Why do I picture you looking like Ned Flanders from the SImpsons?
D'oh!
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Jealous and a woosie coward. You are a sad excuse for a human. To my way of thinking,it's far better to be "codependent"on God and earning my keep,than trying to confisicate and distribute other and better mens earnings through taxation by misrepresentation . My faith rests not on men but on God. |
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Hey----dumba$$---no one said that unions were at ground zero for our present economic downturn. You talk about "toothless tigers"---well that tiger is trumped by your strawman hypothesis.
However, unions have contributed more than you prefer to drone on about. It is said that Kalifornia is equivalent to somewhere between third and fifth largest economies in the world----certainly the largest producing state in the country (although that is changing---The Economist, July 11th-17th).
You and your pity-party pal, KABOOM-breath, can wax on endlessly about California's fortunes. The last laugh is on you and your states failed Liberal policies, legislation, and pathetic progressive leadership.
California NEVER planned for what you call, "natural cyclical downturns".
California's government wanted to conduct itself with huge spending projects which should have been administered by larger entities, i.e., Stem-Cell research programs.
BOTTOM LINE:
Democrats are doing their best to increase power held by unions. The feckless administration's actions towards GM were and are entirely driven by union-interests, union-directive, union-motivation.
"Card-Check" is yet another example of giving union leadership MORE control---you and your finger-wagging weenies could give a rat's behind about this.
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Report released today shows that it takes years for California to address grievances towards its nurses----even serious ones, where criminal behvior is suspected. A nurse working in California can continue to work within the system during this bureaucratic behemoth's long and painfully drawn out process. One can thank both the nurse's union in that state as well as the pathetic government.
Some of the stories in this published report are simply too unbelievable. |
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