Wednesday, March 05, 2008
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No Good Options
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Posted by:
Carol Platt Liebau at
10:07 PM
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When it comes to the question of what to do with the Michigan and Florida delegations, the options that the DNC has offered the campaigns -- turning the question over to the credentials committee or having a do-over -- isn't what either the Obama or Clinton campaigns would have hoped for (although, presumably, Barack would select the first option, Hillary the second).
Obviously, what Hillary & Co. would prefer is for the Michigan and Florida delegates to be grandfathered in. But she needn't expect any favors from Howard Dean, as relations between the Clintons and Dean have been frosty since 2004, for reasons John Fund laid out here.
Given all the caterwauling that the Democrats have engaged in over the years about fairness in voting -- starting in December 2000 -- this whole controversy is dripping with irony. How could Barack credibly challenge the "every vote should count" argument that the Clintons surely would trot out, if he were to attempt to argue against seating the delegates at all (which he probably won't, for prudential reasons)?
On the other hand, either grandfathering or the do-over smacks of unfairly "changing the rules in the middle of the game" (a fine Democrat tradition, manifested most recently in the Torricelli/Lautenberg rules rewrite in New Jersey). Barack has every reason to feel aggrieved that the do-over, if it happens, occurs later in the campaign when Clinton seems to be on the upswing. After all, he had plenty of momentum during the period when the original primaries (where he didn't participate or campaign, in accordance with the rules) were held, and he might well already have won the states had he broken the rules as Hillary did.
So in the end, either the Democrats end up not counting every vote (and waiting for the credentials struggle at the convention), or else they change the rules in the middle of the game. So much for the evil, vote-stealing Republicans being the ones who foul up elections, huh?
Finally, especially with a do-over, the whole point of refusing to seat Michigan and Florida in the first place will be nullified; instead of their states having no real impact on the process (the whole point of the DNC's original refusal to count their delegates), the "rulebreakers" in Michigan and Florida may end up having the most impact of all.
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The only good thing I can think of that is coming out of all this horrible mess is that here we are all learning Civics, at last. I vaguely remember that they talked about delegates and primaries and elections when I was in seventh grade. Who paid attention? Bush's outrages have politicized many of us over the past eight years, and here we are now desperate for information about election law and delegate apportionment.
The other side of this is that if the Democrats go to a brokered convention and Hillary is chosen by superdelegates, those many thousands of Obama young people who got so excited about politics and the process and got involved and voted for the first time, will see that their work and their vote meant nothing and the whole business was decided for political reasons by politicians playing politics. Which is a lesson in itself, but not the one we hoped they would be learning, and likely many of them will become discouraged and embittered. A pity, I think. |
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this election on the basis that "rules of the game" excluded FL and Michigan voters out of the process and that the "rules" must be adhered to. If she takes this to the FL supreme court, we know how they will rule - hello? Chads anyone? The important legal question will become, what option represents the most fair process for voters of FL and MI? Judging by the governors' of FL and MI being involved in the call for a re-vote, I am assuming they will argue "state rights" and "making sure every vote counts in the nomination process". The choices are to exclude two major states in the nomination process risking a back lash in the general when the voters decide to go with McCain because the republican party was perceived to be more fair OR asking the candidates to re-compete in these two states without any risk? I think the judge would suggest the latter and Clinton knows she has the higher moral ground on this one on any given day. So what if Dean doesen't like it? he can scream and get over it but HRC will not get another opportunity to be president so the fight is worth it. These close elections pose such problems for the strategically challenged party leaders. What genius got paid to make up the "delegates don't count rule?" Genius I tell you, Genius. Good bye Obama, you came so close! |
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the involvement of young people. Assuming these people were energized by the idea of being involved in serving their country, and not the idea of serving Obama, they will still vote in November. We want a generation who get inspired for a higher purpose of love of country and not for the purpose of serving an individual. The reality is that Obama supporters are more likely to support Hillary than Hillary supporters are to support Obama. The focus groups and statistical responses show this to be true. Also, the fact that Obama did not use an 11 state winning streak to clinch his nomination makes americans wonder if he can clinch the general election. It is remarkable that a guy who has outspent HRC 2:1, gotten the endorsement of the Kennedy's and had them campaigning for him, and he has "out fundraised" Hillary i.e. 32M in one month did not clinch the nomination after 11 straight wins coming into March 4. Personally, I think McCain can beat either one of them but Obama's inability to close the deal with ALL THE FACTORS working for him (including media) should raise concern with superdelegates when they vote at the convention (this is exactly what will happen unless Obama agrees to the FL and MI re-do). Either way, he looses. |
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I have always wondered why liberals think that decisions should reflect fairness to everyone. Every liberal argument e.g. gay marriage to make it fair to gays, sex education/condom distribution to make it fair for kids whose parents do not discuss these issues etc. Unfortunately, in real life terms every decision has consequences and a process that creates fairness for one side and some unfairness for the other. I am curious to see how the democrats decide. If the 2000 elections made this a divided nation between dems and republicans, the superdelegate decision will make this nation divided along race, and gender lines. This will finally bring to the light the fact that democrats are not superior when it comes to discrimination and gender bias. Any disgruntled women or minorities may actually give republicans a second thought. Hey, MLK was republican and we voted to give women the right to vote so maybe in terms of history being written we can write a whole new chapter for the USA. |
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The commiequeers have ALWAYS been the Cheaters and the Repubes nothing but ENABLERS for lacking the balls to do something about it. After the 2000 idiocy we should already HAVE iron clad voter Registration, ID and Polling procedures in place. That we don't is clear indication that you folks are content to let the politicans lie to you and rape you.
the big mick |
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This is indicative of a larger problem, where doing anything that can be used for political advantage--to advance the "cause"--is becoming more and more acceptable. I know it's always being said this happening, but this time it's happening. De facto now routinely trumps de jure. We are in a death spiral--and if you fly you know what I mean--an attempt to try and pull harder to get out of it only worsens it.
The only solution to the death spiral is to straighten up and fly right. Those two delegations should not be seated. Period. It's over to Mrs. Clinton to decide if ambition means more than the rules of the game. |
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This is a nomination process. The Democrats in leadership positions can run it however they please. They can change the rules whenever they want. The rules are theirs to change. This is not a civics lesson, but it can be a political lesson. If you don't like the process used, join another party. If this party doesn't cater to your perception of how your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness should progress, get out. You were born with those inalienable rights. Parties and/or government didn't give you those rights. You don't have to earn them, and you don't have to do anything to keep them. You may have to do something to retain the USE of them, which is a different matter. Parties can run things as they please, and members can come and go as they please. A party owes you nothing, and you owe it nothing. |
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... for trying to rig the elections so that the DNC, and not the people, is the king-/queen-maker. In all things human, tweaking an operating social system invokes two immutables:
1. The Rule of Unintended Consequences; and
2. Murphy's Law.
I'll bet they never envisioned (a) the debacle that the caucus & SuperDelegate concoctions would have decades later; and (b) the inevitable party self-destruct that locking out Michigan and Florida would have.
The breathtaking hubris chronically displayed by Howard Dean is a lightning rod for Murphy's wrath. He & his DNC minions deserve what they get; but, do the voters?
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thing is going to be hammered out in the next couple months. It gives the Dems an easy way out.Ofcourse Hillary would love to have a white male on the ticket and that's why she'd rather win straight up. But she can't afford to alienate black voters by throwing Obama under the bus.What she's hoping for right now is Obama's star will fade in the next month or so and something damaging will come out of the trial in Illinois,giving her an excuse to pick someone else for VP.
To add to the melodrama,Limbaugh is screwing things up by saying to vote for Hillary to keep the Dem battle going.There's no benefit to this at all.You had to bury that witch when you had the chance.
First Limbaugh screwed up by not coming out against McCain sooner and now with this screwy theory that dem infighting helps the GOP in November.Everybody,including Cunningham should have shut up and let Obama get the nom. then pile on. We gave new life to the dems by letting this thing drag out. |
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ever since the so called superior court ruled that the parties have control over state and federal laws they gave two hack party national leaders the rule over our laws.
The dems are facing this however; it could have easily next time be us. In fact I wish it was. all this arrogant pundits that go on and on and on about the crisis of the dems actually having to run for president make me want to throw up on there faces. I wish we would have taken this to the convention with mitt. add whoever you wanted to go futher instead of the choice the MSM picking our guy.
My point is we all know the dems are as corrupt as a 2 dollar "wh#re " with 50 bucks in her pocket. However; the no balls GOP isnt much better either in theroy we stand for life , military, free trade and small goverment but thats a joke in itself. we have our GI's healing and having to pay for phone calls home , pay for this that and the other guys are running 3 or 4 tours . our gop leaders are ballless on pork barrel spending , and on and on
so I admire the dems getting a chance to actually show how a real primary goes down bloody or not. Thats the only thing i have ever been jealous of anything democratic party.
Peter Olson |
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Mick, the Iron clad voter registration and ID's that you speak of were nixed by what Lilly thinks is the wonderful and "pure" democrat party. Lilly speaks of "Bush's Shenanigans", but it was Gore that tried to steal Florida, by selective recounts,and disenfrancising the military vote. It was the Dem's that tried to steal Ohio through voter intimidation, and in some cases vandalizing Get out the Vote Vans, by slashing tires. The Dem's managed, through recount after recount, find enough "votes" to steal the election for Governor in Washington state. It's amazing where these "lost" votes were at. I grew up in Oklahoma in the 60's and 70's, and can name half a dozen corrupt Dems from that period of time. The Democrat party has a loooooong history of corruption, voter fraud and intimidation. It is too bad that neither the Republicans, or the press will touch that with a 10 foot pole. And, yes, if you arrive at a ballot box, whether Democrat or Republican, you should have a picture ID. It is high time we clean up elections in this country.
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