Saturday, June 09, 2007
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The Fence, Again
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Posted by:
Hugh Hewitt at
11:04 AM
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Yesterday the editors at The National Review have put up a call for the rapid construction of the border fence as a precondition to resurrecting the immigration bill. "When Americans are confident that the government is committed to enforcing any immigration laws," they wrote, "they will be more open to changes to those laws."
"Build that fence," they concluded. (HardStarboard has a comprehensive review of the week's events, btw.)
This essential nexus between the border fence and immigration reform is so crucial that I find myself amazed by the proponents of immigration reform who don't seem to get it. The fence is the visibile expression of the invisible resolve --loudly proclaimed but hardly manifest anywhere-- to actually enforce the immigrations laws present and future. Because so little has been done in the past, even proponents of regularization of most of the illegals in the country are demanding the actual cosntruction of the fence as a down payment on the security guarantees being offered by the Administration and senators backing the big bill.
I am sorry to report that I don't think the fence will be built any faster, or in any greater length, than what is already on the table, which should end the talk of resurrecting the bill, but won't.
From my interview with Senator Jon Kyl yesterday:
HH: What about having the entire fence built before the 601H probationary benefits kick in? Is there going to be another amendment on getting more of the fence done as a trigger?
JK: You’re talking about the entire 700 miles that’s been authorized?
HH: Or more of it. It’s right now at what, 350?
JK: Yeah, the bill calls, doesn’t let anything happen until 370 miles are built. And the total amount that’s authorized is about 700. I don’t think that any of the other amendments that I’ve seen condition the trigger on building more than the 370 miles. But it is true that that’s not the end of it. They keep building. They don’t stop at 370.
HH: But the trigger for Z visa issuance would be 370, as opposed to 500…
JK: Yes, 370, correct. Now there was an extension of the vehicle barriers from 200 miles to 300 miles. That was adopted by the Judd Gregg amendment.
HH: Can I…why wouldn’t they up it to satisfy the security people, Senator? Why not go to 600 or 550, something?
JK: I think the only reason, Hugh, was that the…on the pace that they are on with the contractors they’ve hired to do this, with as much speed but with the cost benefit that you’re not doing a Manhattan Project on it essentially, that they know that they can complete 371 miles within the 18 month period that they’re talking about. They weren’t sure that they could do a whole lot more than that within the 18 month period. Now 18 months is simply a guess as to when the trigger will be pulled. The employee verification system is the long pole in the tent. That’s what’s going to determine how quickly it’s done. That could take longer. And if it takes 20 months, or 24 months, for example, then you’re going to see a lot more fence built than 371 miles, because they’re going to keep on building.
HH: Then the real question for me becomes why not push them harder, because it is Manhattan Project importance, Southern border security, and the 601H probationary set of benefits, travel and employment. Any changed contemplated to those, Senator Kyl? If not, why not?
JK: The answer on the fence again is 371 miles of additional fencing is a lot of additional fencing. And I don’t think we should minimize the effect of 20,000 Border Patrol agents, and 370 miles of fencing, and 300 miles of vehicle barriers. That is a lot, and that will have a dramatic impact on reducing illegal immigration. And I’m sorry, the second part of the question?
HH: Why give travel and employment rights the day after the background check is not bounced back, why not wait…
JK: Okay, yeah, thank you.
HH: Why not wait for two years?
JK: Yeah, first of all, that day, what we’re saying is that the Department of Homeland Security has to check the database that day. Actually, there are two databases, and there may be a third, all of which have to be checked that day. And they won’t issue the probationary card if the information comes back negative, if the person’s a criminal or a terrorist or a gang member, or whatever. Now there are other ways that we will also be able to check to see whether somebody might be a terrorist, besides being on one of these two or three lists. You know, you may get information about a terrorist cell, they’ve got some guy’s phone number in there, and you check it out, and sure enough, it’s Joe Blow who we gave a probationary card to. We can always go back and get Joe Blow and say you are now out of this country, because we’ve now determined that you are ineligible.
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But it's like Fred says, don't tell us you're going to build a fence, BUILD it. The part missing from your analysis Hugh is that we don't want any immigration bill until the border is secure and our immigration bureaucracy actually works. You just know that whatever any bill would say at this point would be subject to constant revision. The only part we would get is amnesty no matter what the bill says. Did anyone else notice that no one even uses the expression "pathway to citizenship" any more? It has morphed in "pathway to LEGALITY". It's all lies and deceit. |
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Stupid Republicans. If they had only built the fence in 2005 or early 2006 they wouldn't have lost the Senate or House. We tried to warn them, but they were more interested in listening to the lobbyists and corporate fat-cats than the base of the Republican Party.
And it appears they still haven't learned. They'd rather lose even more seats in the next election than do the tough thing and tell the lobbyists and immigrant lobbies to pound sand.
To Hades with the Republican Party. Bush's second term has been nothing short of a unmitigated disaster for the Republican Party and the country.
We deserve better than this. There is a horrible and fatal disconnect between the leadership of the party and its base.
Go ahead guys, foist another globalist on us and just see how bad 2008 will be.
I'm starting to think that the only one worth his salt is Duncan Hunter. |
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Expecting the system to work without a bill is impossible because the current "system" is flawed and broken. I agree on the fence and increased border security as a benchmark--that is simple, doable, and can be objectively observed. But the key to the reform are the tamper proof IDs (so employers cannot get out of enforcement by looking at fake social security cards).
I am against a blanket pathway to citizenship or "legality" as I am against a blanket pathway to deportation. Hugh is right, we need different standards for different countries. Family reunification is out (except for immediate family members). We need the right to review the illegals and decide whether or not they can stay. Gang members and criminals shoudl be subject for deportation automatically. |
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I well remember IRCA 1986. All we got was the amnesty. Politicians lie. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, which says "I survived IRCA'86, and all I got was this lousy amnesty".
No way again.
Build a wall first, as a stand-alone issue, secure the border.
THEN and only then do we talk about anything else.
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The old, tired, shopworn, hackneyed, intellectually bereft, discredited "chickenhawk" argument?
If brains were dynamite you wouldn't be able to blow your nose.
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"The fence is the visible expression of the invisible resolve...."
Exactly my sentiments. Nice turn of phrase. |
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... put up that wall"???? THAT is what we have come to? Lovely. After generations of working and fighting to tear down walls -- physical and otherwise -- we are now a country with a sizable portion of the population (and a number of Presidential candidates) scrambling all over each other to advocate bigger walls and prisons. (It reminds me of Mitt Romney's nonsensical call to double Gitmo -- does he mean that we are not catching all the terrorists we can? Or does he just want to start putting any old person in there to reach his twice-sized quota?).
This whole issue is phony -- it is meant to divide people. Consider NAFTA -- the entire idea of it was to free the movement of goods throughout North America -- so why shouldn't labor be allowed the same freedom? Our trade policies are literally starving people throughout Latin America -- and now we want punitively to cut off their chance at a better life? Before anyone asks about the trade policy, I will give an example -- our Agro-Industry mass produces cheap food that has put huge portions of small farms throughout Latin America out of business -- with no jobs in the cities to take their places. Where should those people go? |
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Actually it is more than the fence. Only 16 % (RAS Poll) thought the bill would decrease illegal immigration. More than 50 % of illegal immigration is from over stayed visas.
There has to be very solid evidence of future enforcement and a dramatic decrease in illegal immigration.
Further, why give up the best wedge issue we have. The immigration issue has tremendous cross appeal to Independents and conservative Dems. If we cave on Amnesty2 we are conceding the House in 2008.
Amnesty2 is about trying to resurrect McCain's candidacy. It is very bad for the Party and will divide it. |
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We are not at a loss for solutions. The only thing missing is WILL to get it done. The main flaw with the 1986 bill was that there never was any intention to enforce any of the provisions other than amnesty. That flaw is evident in spades in any law Bush/Kennedy and their ilk presents. That is why we need an election, a fence and an immigration bureaucy that works before we even discuss any more deals. Again, the flaw is LACK OF WILL TO ENFORCE THE LAW. How does the bill fix that flaw? |
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You said" "Gang members and criminals shoudl be subject for deportation automatically."
They are. Tell that to the the bandito mayors and city councils who establish sanctuary cities. Here in LA County, we could probably deport 40% or more of our prison population but Pancho Villaraigossa won't allow it. But even if we deported, without border control, they would just come right back in. Again, that is not a flaw in the law, it is a flaw in a government that refuses to enforce the law. |
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WAS THE IMMIGRATION BILL COLLAPSE A DEFEAT FOR BUSH? Yes, but:
On the other hand, the immigration compromise was almost universally disliked and threatened to split the GOP coalition. Maybe its death was a blessing for the president.
Unless he's dumb enough to bring it up again, which I predict he will be.
posted at 12:05 PM by Glenn Reynolds
I agree if Bush does not bring back a fundamentally different plan, he is meeting Albert Einstein's definition of insane--doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. http://instapundit.com/archives2/006098.php |
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Right on Hugh.
I have written several emails to Senator Kyl since May of 2006. Each time I have asked for the double-wall fence at the
border to cover 2000 miles. Of course, 2000 miles is not necessary to keep out illegal aliens from our country, but it is necessary to prevent Islamic terrorists from traversing the desolate mountain territories, which they are capable of doing.
All of us who believe in a wall at the border, enforcement of laws, no anchor babies, also have voiced this problem over and over again regarding the security, and sovereignty of our nation. The multi-layered problem has brought some good and many bad solutions from politicians whose motivations are not in the people's interests, pandering to lobby groups like LaRaza, Mecha, etc. This is our nation not theirs. This is our Constitution, not theirs.
While the S.1348 has trigger provisions, it is not enough, as Hugh has said, to satisfy the people's charge to close the gate on illegal immigration. Nor does the rest of the bill that provides amnesty masquerading as Z-visa. 24 hour background check is a joke, it cannot uncover activities such as stolen/fake IDs when the illegal uses his/her real identity. The illegal 'below the radar' law breakers will cover all shreds of evidence if they think they can stay in the country without having to resort to stolen IDs. Just the fact that they have been persisting in this country for some sufficient amount of time, is enough to conclude they must have some form of illegal ID to get past employers screens, bank loans, car loans, etc.
How can our politicians overlook this fact? How can they put blinders on, try to pass an amnesty--turning a blind eye to the string of laws broken to exist here, and make off like they are cleansed of any wrongdoing when thousands of US citizens IDs are being stolen, at an increasing rate every year? And why is it that the majority of illegals are crossing the border in the Tucson sector, in a state that has the highest rate of forged/stolen IDs in the nation? They come here any way they can.
They stay in drop houses until they get an illegal/stolen ID, a plane ticket to stay with their 'sponsors'(those other
illegals who are being extorted by the coyotes to pay for their relatives/friends to come live with them). Their stolen/forged IDs allow them to fly by employers checks, and voila, foreign national living in the shadows continues to flourish.
Senator Kyl is trying to sell US citizens a package that he admits we cannot complete (370 miles vs. 700 in 18 months--Rep. Duncan Hunter suggests that he can do it in far less time for the entire 2000 miles, he knows, he did so at the San Diego/Tijuana border). Senator Kyl admits that it will take more than 18 months for electronic background checks for all employers and government databases to be put in place before triggers are satisfied. Let's see, 18 months, 20+ months, who will be in the WH? Socialists? Or status quo continuing the sham of S.1348? Buying time, procrastinating, letting more into
our country, and more terrorists, and more possibility of attacks.
This Pandora's Box of ignorance and abuses are a direct result of Congress's inability to follow the will of the people, they say, it cannot be put back. We say it can--the only way is ENFORCE THE LAWS, BUILD THE WALL, NO ANCHOR BABIES--in that order. I explained the problem as simple as is possible. Congress insists on complicating it. It's our way and no SPP highway. Am I missing anything else? Oh, yeah, no Sanctuary cities.Put the problems back in Pandora's Box.
Thanks Hugh. |
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Exactly what good is a 300 mile - or even 700 mile for that matter - fence going to do on a 1,951 mile border?
This, more than any of the other childish foot stomping, points out how inane and non-existent the anti's thinking on this issue has been.
But by all means let's get to building a 300 mile "fence" on that 2,000 mile border. That'll solve the problem! |
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Your solution is what? No fence at all?
Sounds like a great solution.
How about we start by finishing the 700 authorized. Then we build the rest. Then and only then we look at doing anything else.
How's THAT sound?
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Very cogent and well-articulated argument. Oops, wait a minute! We already have a bill, two actually. The 1986 Simpson-Mazolli bill (unenforced) and the border fence bill of 2006 (funded but stymied by the Bush Administration). Would you like to clarify or expand on your point? Give us something to discuss other than childish foot stomping about how we are all childish foot stompers. |
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Vicente Fox was "confident" there would be no fence. I guess he was correct. He had the inside information from our government.
We can tell if an immigration bill is a good one or not by listening to how much the Mexican government complains about it. The past few weeks, I did not hear/read much complaining from the Mexican government. If they did not complain, that means the bill was a terrible amnesty bill. When the officials from the Mexican government are screaming at the tops of their lungs about a bill, then it means it is a good bill.
Guess I missed the statement last year from the Mexican government saying they were considering taking the fence issue to the UN. I'm sure Bush would be siding with the Mexican government at the UN on this issue.
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October, 2006 - Calderon and President Vicente Fox later ruled out approaching the international body, and Fox said about three weeks ago he was "confident" the fencing would never come to fruition, the AP reported.
The fence bill has earned the ire of U.S. southern neighbors, as Mexican President-elect Felipe Calderon this month called the proposal "deplorable" and Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said Mexico was considering taking the issue to the United Nations, according to The Associated Press.
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Is no one will use them. Simpson/Mazzoli has NEVER been implemented. It might just work if we tried it. |
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Republican voters still get to decide who their nominee will be. Money only buys elections when people act like sheep. If 80% of Republicans are indeed seeking a conservative, we can nominate one. We can nominate Duncan Hunter. The money players won't like it and are trying to convince us only Rudy, Romney, or McCain can win. Hogwash. They want an open borders candidate. Give Americans a chance to vote for a candidate who WILL secure the border and watch turnout soar. Americans want their government to fulfill it's most basic responsibility.
The primary responsibility of the U.S. government is to protect the territorial integrity and people of this country. They have completely abdicated this responsibility. Both parties have been complicit in this. We are being told it is not possible to control our borders, enforce our laws, and thereby control our destiny as a nation. Hogwash. We are being sold out by corporations intent on importing workers for jobs that can't be exported with the taxpayers paying the true costs, financial and human. If we act like sheep and don't stop the inundation across our borders, we will lose our country without a bleat.
http://www.gohunter08.com
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All we need are watch towers like correctional facilities use every few hundred yards. Manned 24/7/365 by Border Patrol agents allowed to do the jobs, augmented where necessary by National Guardsmen. M-60 machineguns on each, with authority to fire on anyone trying to cross the border. An M-60 presents a pretty persuasive argument to anyone so inclined to test our resolve to PROTECT OUR BORDERS. Word would spread pretty quickly, don't you think?
Sure - Amnesty International would be screaming bloody murder, but they hate us anyway, so screw them.
Think any of our politicians have the balls to propose it? |
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Bush urges senators to try again on immigration
Bush plans to lunch with Republican senators in the Capitol on Tuesday, part of a more hands-on approach to persuading party conservatives that the compromise bill is much better than the status quo.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/09/bush.radio.ap/
Senator Kyl will be on Hugh's show in a week saying he has worked it all out with the President. They now have a good bill. |
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for starters the fence in last october's bill was 854 miles of new fencing.
senator kly lies by telling half truths. his 300 miles etc included fence that already existed. and the majority of the fence has been changed to vehicle barriers--basically guard rails that stop cars but not people. the border patrol admits that where these are used people drive up to one side hop out and jump in cars waiting on the other side. they are not intended to stop people. they are intended to stop trucks and cars--primarily drug smugglers in national parks.
hugh, i wish you would be less polite with these folks. don't ask, demand that the 854 miles of new fencing be built before we fashion an immigration bill. make government prove it can be trusted. the triggers are this bill's version of "snake oil".
duncan hunter said on tv "that the 854 miles of fence could be built in six months if the president and congress wanted it built. the fact that only 11 miles have been built proves that the government is not serious about border control."
forget different contractors. turn the project over to combat engineers, using national guard and existing state road crews. this is a military operation. we are being invaded. |
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The cheap labor express has too much to lose to allow it to be shut down. Most of the citizens want exactly that, but the power and money in both parties wants amnesty/regularization/guestworker, including Hugh. He is concerned about jihadis. He does not care about illegal aliens flooding our country as long as they are not Islamic/Arabic. The Grand Bargainers will try to get enough people like Hugh who are OK with amnesty on board with additional security promises.
If the GOP wasn't in the pockets of the cheap labor lobby and had 2 brain cells to rub together, they could clean up in November 2008. A platform of border security and law enforcement would create a landslide. Instead they will continue calling us racist, xenophobic, nativist, retsrictionist, anti-immigrant, yahoos and try to shove another amnesty down our throats. I'll bet that isn't going to get them many votes. |
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It seems that the stubborness of the Prez is once again going to fracture what is left of the GOP. It is bad enough that he went to Europe and is kow towing now to the EU on global warming, the Pope, going with the Law of the Sea treaty and other nice Al Gore-Jimmy Carter-Bill Clinton agendas. The guy is becoming Jimmy Carter. As quick as they can the Gop must separate themselves from Bush on any immigration effort. Mitch needs to appoint guys like Inhofe, Sessions and Cornyn to put together any new ENFORCEMENT bill first with nothing on so called comprehension until all enforcement laws are put into place and complied with especially with the fence and the deletion of the catch and release plan. The Prez is simply irrelevant on this issue because he has led Kyl, Graham and other Pub Senators down an illusionary road to so called bi-partisanship. These 3 actually think the great middle of America support this travesty. Yet Rasmussen says only 23% of all, all Americans supported anything that resembled this cobbled together disaster. |
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Legislative promises of enforcement have proven worthless. To the contrary, each amnesty granted only encourages more illegal immigration. The only solution is to pound on the politicians for real enforcement first. Until we see the results, no "comprehensive" reform. |
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So Bush wants the Senators to try reviving the immigration (sell-out) bill again?
BUILD THE FRIGGEN FENCE AND START DEPORTING THE ILLEGALS.
Its like the Republicans have been taking crystal meth for a couple of months and their ability to read their bases has been totally killed!
What the heck are they thinking????
What really upsets me is just how cheaply most Americans are willing to sell their birthright.
Fools. |
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I am SO SICK of the can't deport crowd..
I don't want to round up and deport law abiding, hard working, legally driving, never been arrested, english speaking, health insurance carrying, non-terrorist illegal aliens. BUT YOU BETTER BELIEVE I RESERVE THE RIGHT To DEPORT THE REST!!!
INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants
2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants
CRIME STATISTICS 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.
86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.
75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually
53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.
71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes".
47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.
63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens
66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.
BIRTH STATISTICS 380,000 plus “anchor babies” were born in the U.S. in 2005 to illegal alien parents, making 380,000 babies automatically U.S.citizens.
97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayers.
66% plus of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers
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This revised bill is the biggest threat that the Republican Party has faced since Perot. Please do everything that you can to kill the revised immigration bill.
Miles of fence are smoke. 52 % of illegals are over staying their visas. Triggers are worthless red herrings. The government has to demonstrate that it can perform its most basic function. Almost all other governments protect their borders. Is the US government so incompetent that it can not even do that?
We have already lost all of the Hispanic votes that we are going to lose and a new bill will not buy any Hispanic votes. These bills are a lose/lose for the Republican party.
On the other hand, this is the best wedge issue that we have. We can use immigration to retake the House and maybe the Senate in 2008. Independents hate this bill even more than Republicans and this issue reaches conservative Democrats. Illegal immigration is the 2nd most important issue in almost all polls. Don’t give it away. We need to use it to boost donations and votes. Any comprehensive immigration bill that passes now will lose donations and votes for Republicans in 2008.
If a bad bill passes, illegal immigration will become the most important issue of 2008, more important than the Iraq War, which will be resolving on way or another. It is best to drop immigration for now. If a bill is passed a large segment of the Republican party will form a 3rd anti immigration party.
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Bush needs another in his face citizen smack down----No amnesty! He can be dense---- |
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Hugh,
Is it not completely obvious that if we legalize 12-20 million illegals on the grounds that we can't enforce our laws, that we will create a huge incentive for more illegals to come in. Is it not also obvious that we are not enforcing the laws we have in place. Then how in the world, Hugh, can you accept the basic premise of this bill, which is to provide immediate legal status to 12-20 million, on the promise that we will enforce some complex set of regulations in the future.
This is not about immigration, in the sense of high levels of legal immigration under standards that are democratically defined. I support that. What this is about is an elite that refuses to enforce our laws because it benefits their financial or political interests. It is also about extraordinarily poor leadership, which threatens to gravely damage out country. This bill can't be fixed with a few amendments, Hugh, because of the problems with its basic premises. The proper policy is painfully obvious, we must demonstrate, i.e. proves as a fact on the ground, that we can enforce our borders before we can consider other immigration policy changes.
This is not a minor policy difference. This debate is a defining moment. The Republican party, of which I have been a very strong supporter, is badly damaging itself by having a leadership which is supporting this travesty. I think you are making a serious mistake in judgment by accepting the position that this bill can be corrected by a few amendments. I would ask you to address the problems with the central premises of the immigration bill and embrace a stronger position on the need to prove enforcement before other policy changes. |
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I have been unable to locate the "INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants" on any GOVERNMENT web site. If anyone has such a URL, I'd appreciate it if you would provide it.
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A state of the art fence based on military specs is being built by the Minutemen on private land. See minutmanborderfence.com. or an older site http://www.borderfenceproject.com/; 11 miles in 11 months using donations. And the government has built 2 miles of fence since, I believe October? |
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It should be obvious that rewarding illegal behavior generates more of the same, but this argument is largely missing from this debate. The key question with respect to anything the government proposes on immigration should be: what effect will it have on future would-be illegal immigrants? We know amnesty is a magnet. Calling it "regularization" does not diminish its attraction. |
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AMR,
Thanks for the link. I am going to contribute to the project, and I ask others of you to check out the link as well.
According to the Border Fence Project, they can build a secure fence with cameras and motion detectors (connected to the internet!!) across the entire border. They only need $10 from five million Americans to have enough funding.
Apparently, Americans will have to do the job that the government won't do. |
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This was a response to an article in the Wall Street Journal and I hope Mr. Fassel doesn't mind me copying it. I have often thought that illegals should never be allowed citizenship, only if they leave the country apply in their own country and do what everyone else has to do (including me, had to do that is).
Documentation Yes, Legalization No
Roy Fassel - Los Angeles
The immigration debate is seriously flawed. The debate is seriously flawed not because of various proposals but because everyone assumes that whatever is proposed, the federal government will not "enforce" the laws regarding immigration.
To effectively deal with the immigration issues, I propose a number of solutions which must be enforced.
All people "in the United States" must be "documented." The documentation categories are (a) citizen, (b) visa holder of various categories and (c) temporary work permit.
All people who have entered or will enter America "illegally" will never have the right to "citizenship." However, all illegal residence must be "documented" into a special category within 12 months. The illegal residence will be "classified" into a special category of documentation. The illegal residence must be issued a special Social Security card for a "noncitizen" status. All illegal residences, with proper "documentation" will enjoy all rights in America with the exception of citizenship.
With these rights, the following rules will apply for life. Three strikes of some defined category (including before documentation dates) and that person must be deported as an unwanted immigrant. This is clearly a constant "punishment" for violating American immigration laws.
Finally, anyone not being documented after 12 months will be deported, no questions ask.
And finally, any president or any governor who does not "enforce" the laws of immigration in America is subject to "impeachment" for not protecting the United States from foreign risks. Any company which hires "undocumented" employees in 12 months will be subject to both massive fines and imprisonment of the top executives.
All persons walking on the soils of America must be "documented" in some category within 12 months. And the "government" must "enforce" all immigration laws on the books within 12 months. By law.
This is not "amnesty" but a new start. And a new outcome.
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Below is a link to a federal document from last year called: A Line in the Sand:Confronting the Threat at the Southwest Border. Some interesting and blood boiling stats in the document. Not the document you are looking for but some info from the FBI and other government agencies.
Also has details on smuggling of illegal aliens from the Middle East to the US. This has been talked about for years, but for some reason Hugh needed to find out from the reporter in Texas (who did a fine job with the series). So here is a US Federal Document from last year telling us that members of Hezbollah have been come across our southern border, and we can't build the fence.
http://www.house.gov/mccaul/pdf/Investigaions-Border-Report.pdf
From the document:
Approximately 90 percent of U.S. MS-13 members are foreign-born illegal aliens and depend upon the Texas-Mexico border smuggling corridor to support their criminal operations. MS-13 members are involved in a variety of other types of criminal activity, including rape,murder, and extortion.
Since September 11, 2001, DHS has reported a 41% increase in arrests along the Texas/Mexico border of Special Interest Aliens.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement investigations have revealed that aliens were smuggled from the Middle East to staging areas in Central and South America, before being smuggled illegally into the United States.
Members of Hezbollah have already entered the United States across the Southwest border.
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When something as easily accomplished as building a fence is not being done, who in their right mind would expect the more complex aspects of the law to be accomplished? The percentage of the fence that is actually constructed is exactly the same percentage of the law that will be enforced. |
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Thanks very much for the URL--quite disturbing reading.
If anyone can provide a .gov URL for the "INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants," I'd still appreciate it.
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Hugh
What can't Kyle understand about building a fence, here, there, and everywhere?
He can slap backs and G strings with McCaine, Kennedy, Graham and Bush when they get that done.
For some unknown reason, I don't trust my Senators and Representative and my trust in Kyle runs slightly ahead of my trust in my Senator Reid.
I am being overrun by illegals who could care less about the USA. The get free schools, medical, housing support, prison care and don't want to assimilate.
We are coming close to losing a nation through lousy and incompetent leadership.
Hugh, you seem to be buddy buddy with Kyle and some of the other incompetents. Maybe you can find out from one of the Esteemed Senators if EX TEX's stats are even close to being right. If so why do we want them in our country? Don't we have enough thieves in DC?
Sorry Hugh, get Kyle etc to fix the borders so we have some reason to trust him and them. |
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You know just cuz something gets repeated over and over and over on the web don't mean it ain't so!
If you don't like my post- then you go right ahead and challenge the figures. Oh Yeah and I only accept info from GUBMINT Sources.
so don't bother with anything that doesn't have a .gov okay pardner!
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being Republicans that they never even noticed that John McCain and the "Rino Express" was trying to shove open borders down their throats last year!........Being a conservative doesn't mean buying into everything that a GLOBALIST tells you!.........S-2611 Should have been a "wake-up call last year"!.........Back to conservative 101 for neocons! |
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Ex-tex --
Thanks for the first of the URLs that you provided.
You noted, "[J]ust cuz something gets repeated over and over and over on the web don't mean it ain't so." Agreed. Similarly, just because something is repeated over and over on the web doesn't mean it's true.
You also noted, "If you don't like my post- then you go right ahead and challenge the figures." Actually, I never said I didn't like your post and I'm not challenging your figures. I'm simply trying to confirm from a government source a set of figures that are claimed to be of government (INS/FBI) origin. |
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We can settle this once and for all. We finally have the FACTS on illegal immigration. The White House put out the below fact sheet just yesterday to make sure we are all aware of the facts and myths with illegal immigration. I'm glad they cleared everything up.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070608-10.html
Bush is obsessed with amnesty for Illegal aliens. They are getting ready next week to shove this same piece of garbage bill right back down our throats. John Kyl will be pushing the same bill with just a few changes and saying we must pass comprehensive immigration reform.
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Gee, 18 months? Heck they could have had most of it done in the last 3 years then, instead of playing the shell game. Kyle _ a day late and a dollar short, and now still hardly begun. Maybe they're waiting for the age of aquarius. |
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Welcome to the world of hypothetical DC “politics by bureaucracy”; where there are no definite absolutes about anything, except more bureaucracy. Lets wager on that. |
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Both are the sons of New England grandees. Teddy is a Roman Catholic. His church has a vested interest in bringing more Catholics across the borders, Hispanics more docile to the church's authority. George's family were country club Republicans, known these days as RINOs. These wealthy sorts used to bust unions, now they merely import cheap labor. Hispanic Democrats will vote the straight Democratic ticket. So the Republicans get cheap labor, the Democrats stupid votes. The rest of us are the losers in this transaction. |
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I take a somewhat different view from Hugh. Here's what I just posted on my always lively blog:
I see Hugh Hewitt is breathlessly announcing that National Review is calling for the rapid construction of the "fence" (hereafter known as "Berlin Wall, South") as a precondition to opening up discussion of the Immigration Bill, etc. I have a better idea (or two): (1) The President and the Congress should bring to an end construction of the Wall and spend the money on more pressing matters; (2) There should be no reconsideration of the Immigration Proposal. As they say in New York, "Forget about it." It would be preferable to wait until after the election of 2008 to even mention the subject again. No Republican in his right mind is going to grab that tar baby in our lifetime.
As John McCain has suggested, what we have now is what we will have in the future.
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Steve : "I see Hugh Hewitt is breathlessly announcing that National Review is calling for the rapid construction of the "fence" (hereafter known as "Berlin Wall, South")"
You either don't know anything about the Berlin Wall, or you are delierately doing your best to spread disinformation.
Earth to "Steve": The Berlin Wall was constrcted by communist East Germany to keep their own citizens IN East Germany, and prevent them from escaping to the west.
Our own wall at the Mexican border on the other hand, will be built to prevent Mexican drug dealers, murderers, rapists and child abusers, and every kind of criminal known to man from invading our country, and stinking up the joint.
There is a huge difference.
According to the FBI's most wanted list, up to FIFTY % of of "FBI Most Wanted Murderers" are Illegal Aliens:
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/vc/murders/vc_murders.htm
"(1) The President and the Congress should bring to an end construction of the Wall and spend the money on more pressing matters;"
There is absolutely NOTHING, that is more pressing to the ctizens of this country today than securing our borders with Mexico. It trumps everything else.
Message to Bush and the retarded US Senate: BUILD THAT WALL NOW. |
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Are we ignoring the elephant in the living room? Maybe someone has already mentioned the above Hispanic Racist groups, one of which, La Raza, is being given more and more legitimacy by the media--the KKK could never get away with it, nor should they. But these groups are busy organizing other racist Mexican Americans and the illegals to hate America under the banner that America belongs to Mexico. In California, Fabian Nunez, a legislator and Hillary's point person in California, proudly puts his hand over his heart and snaps to attention when the Mexican anthem is played and openly despises white America. Do we think things will get better when we give amnesty to 20 million people who refuse to learn English, and want America to become part of Mexico? This is a real threat. Is it not PC to say out loud? Well, at least Bush's ag and hotel friends will make more money, in the short run. |
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KD : "Maybe someone has already mentioned the above Hispanic Racist groups, one of which, La Raza, is being given more and more legitimacy by the media"
La Raza aka The Race is every bit as evil as the KKK, the only difference beng, La Raza stands for Mexican/Latino supremacy, while the KKK stood for white spremacy.
In California, more and more blacks are being murdered by La Raza suporting Mexicans. This is something that El Presidente Bush just can't seem to get his mind wrapped around.
But hey, according to Bush, these guys are only doing the murdering that Americans won't do.
What insenses me about this evil bill is that violent illegal allien criminals and gang members are still going to be given amnesty to stay here...all they gotta do is sign a meaningless piece of paper saying they denounce gang membership.
Wish American citizens couod get such tender treatment fom the US Senate.
What on earth is Bush smoking? |
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While the Berlin wall may have been constructed to keep people in and this to keep people out, the effects (and the motivations) are mostly the same: divided families and the crushing of the masses by the elites. The bottom line is that any solution that is predicated on a controlled trickle of guest workers is a solution only for the wealthiest. The big business owners want just enough cheap labor here -- but not so much that it actually diminishes the labor pool in their favorite exploitable countries below the Rio Grande. It works perfectly to keep wages down here and there.
Another obvious comparison is the militarisation of the border: there are men, women, and chidren being assaulted, robbed, and even murdered every day in the deserts between Mexico and the United States by border patrol and vigilantes. Even the "luckiest" are typically held without food and water before being returned to dump stations often far away from their homes. In short, what do the walls have in common? Complete disregard for our common humanity. |
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We're not responsible for divided families. If Mexican national don't want to be seperated from their families THEY CAN GO HOME. |
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manfred : "While the Berlin wall may have been constructed to keep people in and this to keep people out, the effects (and the motivations) are mostly the same: divided families and the crushing of the masses by the elites"
Nonsense.
You can't compare a communist, oppressive country like East Germany, building wall to keep their own citizens IN, to a free, democartic country like America building a wall to keep Mexican rapists, murderers, drug dealers and child abusers OUT of America and protect our American citizens from being murdered.
They couldn't be more different.
Also, perhaps you will explain to me how preventing illegals from coming here will "divide" families?.
I would have thought that preventing Mexican young men from illegally coming here will allow them to stay with their famillies in Mexico and prevent their famillies from being divided, no?
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manfred : "Another obvious comparison is the militarisation of the border: there are men, women, and chidren being assaulted, robbed, and even murdered every day in the deserts between Mexico and the United States by border patrol and vigilantes."
Look, most illegals who are "assualted" between Mexico and the US are assualted by their own kind" : Mexican "cayotes".
In fact if Bush had looked after business and but more ARMED National Guardsmen, and Border Patrols at the border, not only would illegal crossings have gone down, Mexican on Mexican assaults on the border would have gone down too.
"Complete disregard for our common humanity."
One would wish, you and your liberal pals like ted "The Swimmer" Kennedy, would show such touching concern for the over 3000 people in america that are murderd by illeagls every single year. |
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What about the families of the border guards who are now in prison for shooting a drug smuggler? Oh right, they don't count. Families get divided all the time for all kinds of reasons. |
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Another obvious comparison is the militarisation of the border: there are men, women, and chidren being assaulted, robbed, and even murdered every day in the deserts between Mexico and the United States by border patrol and vigilantes.
How about a mention or two of the thousands of American's assaulted, robbed, and murdered in cities all across America as a direct result of the open borders with our enemy on our southern border? All of Congress should be impeached for failing to uphold their oaths to support , defend, and protect the Constitution of these United States. I only hope and pray a politician comes along with the stones to speak without fear and call for each border state to send out the National Guard to stop the invasion! |
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I really don't like the fence. A lot of amnesty advocates (Hugh Hewitt, John McCain, Jorge Bush) have in various degrees given at least lip service to the virtues of a fence. I think this is because they feel like this is an easy bone they can throw to the hardliners in order to preserve amnesty, guest worker programs, increased legal immigration, chain migration, and all the other venues for driving the cheap labor express. I think they also realize that a fence will be a less than perfect solution to stopping further illegal invasions so why not look like they're getting tough and sign on to the fence building sham.
How do you really send back 20 million plus illegals and prevent future waves? You do it the same way Mexico and the other 3rd world cesspools sent these millions our way in the first place -- by providing no jobs, no money, no freebies, and no opportunities and then add the kicker of having to truly live in the shadows of society with the potential to be apprehended and sent back at a moments notice. The beautiful thing is that we already have mostly good laws to make this happen. We just need the will to enforce them. Unfortunately that will only happen with a new President and even then none of the front runners really seem that committed to truly carry out this function.
For those such as Joe that say the current laws really don't allow us to conduct workplace enforcement I can only ask.... How then have these recent dog and pony show raids in the last year or so been able to happen? They took down Swift Meats and others and we only need to multiply this effort 100 fold. It can work like the IRS in that enforcement doesn't have to occur with every employer -- just enough to keep the others in line and fearful of breaking the laws. Will it work perfectly? Of course not, but it will work well enough to make illegal immigration a nuiscance rather than a crisis. |
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"All of Congress should be impeached for failing to uphold their oaths to support , defend, and protect the Constitution of these United States"
The extent to which the congress and President Bush are out of touch with working Americans is simply staggering.
It was simply sickening to see Lindsey Graham and the arch traitor John McCain, trooping to Ted Kennedy's office, to get his orders on how they should vote on the amendments to this bill, that were submitted by some Republican Senators.
President Bush is fast on his way to becoming the worst Republican president in history, and if he continues on his disastrous amnesty for illgals path, he is going to sart challenging Jimmy Carter for the worst president in history title. |
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Thanks, just what I needed to sleep well tonight. The knowledge that the administration is responding to Mexico's concerns about the border is so reassuring. It would be nice if they would respond to Americans concerns. With something besides surrender. |
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Sammy : "I really don't like the fence."
Too bad.
Most Americans want that fence.
"I think they also realize that a fence will be a less than perfect solution to stopping further illegal invasions so why not look like they're getting tough and sign on to the fence building sham."
As has been pointed out before, the fence is but one prong of the battle to stop illegals from invading this country.
Right now, Boieng is building a hi-tech illegal alien detetion syestem on the border. There should be a massive increase the number of border patrol agents from the current puny size, plus of course of strong penalties with teeth against anyone who is convicted of hiring illegals, etc etc.
But a strong 2000 mile border should be part of it.
Ths rest of your post makes plenty of sense to me. |
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The responsibility for Mexican families being broken is the Mexican government itself.
That government is one of the most corrupt in all the world.
And what's more, has been for over fifty years.
That country has indulged socialism. That government hunted down priests and nuns. And they hunted them down to their death.
It wasn't a coincidence that Trotsky took up residence in Mexico. And when the Communists tried to take over Hollywood, their union thugs got their money from the Mexican government. If you want confirmation for that, consult the book titled REAGAN'S WAR, and you'll find the footnotes that support that statement.
Mexico yielded to the Siren song of socialism. And thus her economy was dashed to pieces upon the brutal rocks of Marxian economics.
Now, to solve the problem created by almost a century's worth of socialism, Mexico turns to the champion of Capitalism. They expect capitalistic America to come to the rescue of socialist Mexico.
When Pope John Paul II proposed visiting Mexico, there were many in Mexico's government who resisted the idea of him, the leader of the Catholic Church, coming to Mexico trying to breath fresh air into Catholicism.
If you have doubts about that little tidbit, check out some of the more prominent biographies of Karol Wojtyla.
There's was a great deal of negotiating before that visit occurred. A simple visit became a problem that needed to hashed out because of the intensity of Leftist and socialistic propaganda.
The wall is not a device to stop commerce between our two countries.
Nor is the wall a device to prevent visitation of loved ones.
Nor is the wall a device to prevent LAWFUL movement between the two countries.
All of those things are allowed.
Americans frequently visit Mexico.
Mexicans frequently come here.
Many, surprise, surprise, many actually come here LAWFULLY.
The wall is a device to enable America to gain control of her borders. In a time of enhanced dangers to the nation, to our cities and citizens, an uncontrolled border is an imbecility.
And it will surely prove an imbecility for which we will dearly pay.
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And all of us need to press too for a securing of our Northern border.
Canada provides sanctuary for some of the most rabid of all islam. And has been doing so for years.
Malevolent muslims are not just penetrating our society from Mexico, but they are also doing so from Canada.
And we need to pressure Canada to alter her policy towards islam. Otherwise, we'll have to alter the conditions of the border.
And the border between the United States and Canada is the longest undefended border between two countries in history.
So it would be truly, deeply unsettling were we left with no other choice but to implement measures along our Northern border, that we're being forced to implement along our Southern.
If we're concerned about securing the nation, then we have to insist upon greater checks and precautions at our entry points, airports and especially our seaports.
Moreover, we have to alter our immigration policy towards those that represent the greatest threat to the West and to the United States.
And all of you know full well who that is.
None of you are so foolish to repeat Bush's politically correct fiction, that "islam is a religion of peace."
Furthermore, we have to gain control of our Southern border, AND we have to pressure Mexico to crack down on those entering Mexico, fully intending to surreptitiously penetrate this country.
MAJOR CHANGES need to be implemented.
And this flawed, pernicious piece of legislation accomplishes none of them.
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First off, it is absolutely false that "most" of the assaults etc. that occur at the border are "their own people." The border is essentially a free fire zone, and, judging by the posts here, I would say the "guards" at the border probably know they are not really subject to much scrutiny.
As for splitting families -- well, for one thing, any child born in America is an American citizen -- but if his or her parent is not here legally, then that parent can be sent away. And, though I am certain many of you don't care, these recent raids on food processing plants sent thousands of adults to jail and left hundreds of children alone -- many simply abandoned in daycare.
And Proud American: our "enemy" to the South? Latin America is our "enemy"? Why? I can assure you, they are more sinned against than sinning. We have invaded them throughout the last 125 years; we have supported murderous thugs (Pinochet, Noreiga just to name 2); we support thuggish paramilitary activities in places like Columbia, forcing empoverished farmers to destroy crops; we forced liberalization on them, nearly destroying many of their economies -- remember the Argentine crisis?; we overtly supported a coup against Hugo Chavez who, say what you will, was elected democratically; and we exploit their people and resources then complain when they come here seeking a better life. And they are OUR enemies? |
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Hi all, here's something pretty cool and I know you commenters would be great at it. We all complain about the media and the pundits from time to time. Well, here’s an invitation for you to sound off on an issue for a national audience -- and one person who does will be chosen to host a “Henry Rollins Show” marathon on IFC (Independent Film Channel).
Rollins is inviting you to tape a short video “rant” and the person who does the one he chooses will be flown to L.A. to host an upcoming “Rollins Show” Marathon on IFC.
Just go to ziddio.com/myrollinsrant and record and upload a 30-second video “rant” on one of the 11 hot topics Henry has selected (including abortion, has the Iraq war made us safer? trade with China, global warming, etc.)
Rollins encourages anyone to enter, no matter their political persuasion - in fact he's begging for entries from people who disagree with him - his only requirement: have “passion and attitude!”
Not a bad opportunity. And a chance to sound off on some of the issues we all care about.
You can upload your “rant” at ziddio.com/myrollinsrant |
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"First off, it is absolutely false that "most" of the assaults etc. that occur at the border are "their own people." "
First of all, you are full of BS.
It IS absolutely true that the overwhelming majority of attacks on illegals while they are violating our borders, come from their own kind: Mexican cayotes, drug dealers, umrderers and other undesireables.
"The border is essentially a free fire zone, "
More reason for a 2000 mile, strong, hi-tech wall, adequately manned by a strong border patrol corps. Jorge Bush, who's sister in law is a Mexican woman, is happy to leave our borders open so every criminal in Mexico can come here and spread mayhem whenever they want.
"As for splitting families -- well, for one thing, any child born in America is an American citizen -- but if his or her parent is not here legally, then that parent can be sent away"
# 1. We are talking about building a wall to STOP these ilegals from coming here in the first place. These people were not born here, we don't owe them squat, we prevent them from coming here, they can stay in Mexico with their famillies and avoid their famillies from getting split. Simple.
"And Proud American: our "enemy" to the South? Latin America is our "enemy"? Why?"
Why?
Umm..I suggest you go ask the screaming Mexican mobs at the soccer staudium in Mexico when the US team was playing in the World Cup qualifiers. These Mexicans kept screaming "Osama, Osama" at the US tea in burst of pure hate.
Only a couple of weeks back, rabid Mexican crowds continued to hurl racist abuse, hate, and pure bie at the American contestant in the Miss Universe contest in Mexico.
If you thnk those are acts of a friendly nation, you are smoking crack. |
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" we overtly supported a coup against Hugo Chavez "
Rubbish.
If we wanted to remove the puffed up creep Chavez, he'd have been out of power long ago.
Just go ask Saddam.
"who, say what you will, was elected democratically; "
Chavez was elected in free and fair elections?
What planet you living on? And what have you been smoking? Are you the naive idiot Jimmy Carter by any chance? |
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"Quick, change the locks!"
Excellent idea.
We could hand him over to France.. hey, wait a minute..even the French wised up and promptly elected a strongly anti-illegal immigrant, pro law enforcement president.
This is one occasion we could learn something from the French. |
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Smithy, It's not that I'm against a fence -- I can see it as a piece of the puzzle to solve this problem. But in a world of finite resources and time I would rather allocate those resources toward detention/processing centers and workplace enforcement.
If we build a fence first with little else... then essentially we've done nothing to reduce the lure. We've got a brand new Ford Mustang (the approximate cost of the net defecit each illegal alien family costs taxpayers each year) parked with the windows open and the keys in the ignition. Now to stop people from hopping in and driving away with the car we've built a fence around the car. I'd rather just remove the car. |
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"and we exploit their people and resources then complain when they come here seeking a better life. And they are OUR enemies?"
They exploit themselves by crossing into this country without documentation, and even that is debatable. These people are not all starving peasants, a large majority have jobs but come here to make better money that they turn around and send back to their families. So, the debatable part is that all that money leaves this country instead of staying here to boost the economy. So really, who is being exploited? |
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This is seriously frightening. Smithy, we absolutely supported a coup against Chavez -- that is not, of course, the same thing as invading, assassinating etc. But do your homework. The Venezuelan military spent 3 days in "power," and we supported them -- and then the coup collapsed because, in part, Chavez was elected fairly and is -- whatever you want to think -- popular with his people. I am sure our electing Bush is as baffling to them. But why do you think in the last few years Chavez, Evo Morales, Lula in Brazil, Bachelet in Chile -- all left or even socialist? Obviously it is a reaction against the neoliberalism forced on them by the IMF and World Bank -- our global surrogates.
And the Mexicans booed Miss American? Boo hoo. Read this board! Listen to this debate! Who s harder on whom? Mexicans largely like Americans and are incredibly friendly to us on a personal level -- but that booing was the frustration of a country that is always getting the short end of the stick. And I have news for you: if we don't want Miss America booed, then we really pretty much have to hold the contest in America, because everybody hates us (oh, wait, not Albania apparently).
And CDSeven: WE are exploited? That is seriously the most Lewis Carroll argument I've ever heard. Why not go further? Hey, those people are letting us down, because if they don't stay home and work for pitiful wages in unsafe conditions, we won't be able to buy things as cheaply at Wal-Mart! What's their problems? How dare they come here and work longer hours for sub-minimum wage! We are being taken advantage of! I have a suggestion: don't shop at Wal-Mart or Target. Don't buy coffee. Don't eat bananas or other produce grown in Latin America. Then, you won't be "getting exploited." |
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ALL of these politicians voting for and cramming this AMNESTY BuILL down our gullet as if we're ducks being fattened for the kill for their dinner are ignorant or just self-centered, greedy scalawags bent on destroying OUR LAWS, OUR NATION, OUR CULTURE and OUR TRUST in the governance of "We The People..."!
My Senators, Shelby & Sessions, voted NO on the AMNESTY BuILL and the SURRENDER BuILL. If your Senators did not you should let them know how you feel about the invasion of ILLEGAL ALIENS (loyalty to another country), wrapping themselves in the Mexican flag, demanding their rights, as tho they were Americans!
The Senate Majority Leader, Harry (mealy-mouth) Reid has already called the ILLEGAL ALIENS..."MEXICAN AMERICANS" living in the shadows! We all know they will never swear allegiance to OUR CONSTITUTION. They are Mexico's greatest export to the tune of $30,000,000,000 to $50,000,000,000 per year of American dollars to their families which is spent in MEXICO!
Now you 'know the rest of the story'...their corrupt politicians will maintain the status quo of rich and poor. There's no middle class citizens in Mexico and their poor are destroying OUR MIDDLE CLASS while the politicians get richer on both sides of the border.
There are two (2) solid procedures that will STOP the flood of ILLEGAL ALIENS into OUR COUNTRY without a fence: #1. Create a Biometric Identification Card (BIC) with the card holder's fingerprint,eye and facial imprint information and status that will be impossible to forge #2. Enforce the LAWS already enacted...penalyze and fine the employers heavily who hire ILLEGAL ALIENS for the first time! If they are guilty the second time...they're out of business, closed, fini. (when there are no jobs from dishwasher to construction worker TO WHATEVER...ILLEGAL ALIENS will have no desire to come OUR COUNTRY) |
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"This is seriously frightening. Smithy, we absolutely supported a coup against Chavez -- that is not, of course, the same thing as invading, assassinating etc"
You and your loony left pals may have, however the United States government has NOT , repeat, NOT organised any coup against Don Quixote Chavez. If they had, the clown Chavez would be out of power by now.
That hasn't stopped the monteback Chavez from screaming that the US goverment has organized a coupe against him, or the lunatic fringe in America from promptly believing.
Pathetic. |
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Manfred you talk about ,starving, farms, people...
do a little research on africa..What race of people inhabit africa?? when is the only time
in history when the farms in africa have been productive??? when were they exporting food grains???What are they emporting now???
whos running the farms now????
you talk like uninformed ultra liberal...
after you do the reasearch ,,, come back and comment |
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"The Venezuelan military spent 3 days in "power," and we supported them "
The Venezuellan military is perfectly capable of organising coup d'etats against genocidal dicactors like Chavez by themselves, without anyone helping them. In fact South America as a whole, has had more military coups in their history than the rest of the world combined, because South America has been one of the most corrupt sleazy places on the plant for centuries.
"Mexicans largely like Americans and are incredibly friendly to us on a personal level "
They could have fooled me. I watched that World Cup match in Mexico..if they like Americans, they sure had a strange way of showing it.
I was also at the first nasty, gingoistic, Mexican-flag-waving illegal immigrant demonstrations last year..talk about hate-filled, nasty, vicious creeps.
Bottom line: at every oppsotunity they get, Mexicans have demonstrated a palpabale hatred of Americans. They amply demonstrate this by the number of murders carried out every year in this country by Mexican illegals immigrants. |
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An Idea on Immigration reform:
I propose that we give amnesty to all Immigrants in the USA.
That all Immigrants submit to a background check and apply for an ID card that is not forgeable.
Any immigrant that fails a background check will be deported. If those immigrants have had children born in the USA then that Immigrant will be put into American jails and subjected to American laws until such time as the Illegal has served his time. Upon being released he will then be legalized by the standard process.
Prior to the implementation of this bill there will be a 3 year period in which the Immigration service will institute the means necessary including the hiring of officials to oversee the proper implementation of the background check as well as the issuance of the proper ID. During this 3 year period the wall on the border will be built. The electronic surveillance system will be installed and the immigration service will increase its forces by some 12,000 members and the service will build the necessary infrastructure to institute the proper background checks and verification programs needed to insure the proper documentation of immigrants within the borders of this country.
That the United States Allow only visas to family members of Legalized Immigrants and that any additional Immigration from Mexico and Latin Countries be serverly limited to no more then 100,000 per year for the next 3 years and 200,000 per year from years 4-8.
Immigration be stepped up and encouraged among countries of non latin American origin. 900,00 per year for years 1-3 and 1.1 million for years 6-10. AT the end of the 8th year this bill is in place the bill will then be reviewed and adjustments made according to the needs of this nation.
Visa's given will be cut the following year by the amount in which those are failed to return. For example if we let 250,000 Visas and only 240,000 are returned then the following year only 240,000 guest Visas are let.
English be the official language. English will be taught in schools.
Employers caught hiring Illegal workers are fined a penalty not to exceed 10,000 dollars per incidence.
Landlords are fined a penalty not to exceed 5,000 dollars per incidence for renting to Illegal Immigrants.
Both employer and landlord are required to have on file the verified information contained on the National ID as proof they have adhered to the law in the hiring and letting of said immigrant to adhere to the laws of this bill.
Border Security will be stepped up to include 1952 miles of extensive electronic surveillance. 24,000 border guards will be hired over the next 8 years. 700 miles of fence will be installed in a time frame not to exceed 8 years.
The entire contents of this bill will become fully in effect at the end of 8 years. If these benchmarks are not met then the congress will ask for an extension and the immigration quotas will be reduced by 10 percent per year until such time as the benchmarks are made and the congress can then adjust the immigration needs of this country. |
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"if we don't want Miss America booed, then we really pretty much have to hold the contest in America, because everybody hates us (oh, wait, not Albania apparently). "
yeah?
Listen, I watch the miss America and Miss Universe contests every year, and haven't seen even a SINGLE occasion when Miss America was booed in ANY cuntry..that is untill they made the mistake of hoding the Miss Universe pangent n a hate filled country like Mexico. The Mexicans certainly take the cake when it comes to hate. Let's face it, the Mexican crowd showed as much class as pack of skunks.
Disgracefull!
"Hey, those people are letting us down, because if they don't stay home and work for pitiful wages in unsafe conditions, we won't be able to buy things as cheaply at Wal-Mart! What's their problems?"
ummm.....Those are questions you'd better direct to the Mexican goverment. After all, Mexico has been around every bit as long as America has, and has huge oil reserves and natural resources. You might go ask, the eternally corrupt, sleazy succesive Mexican goverments why their country is so screwed up that their people keep invading another country to work, and stink up that country.
Last time I checked, we don't vote in Mexican elections. They elect these creeps. Let them go hold their politician's feet to the fire, and stop invading our country. |
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Well, first off, I did not say we organized the coup against Chavez -- I said we supported it. We recognized the coup government immediately, a real faux pas when you are theoretically supposed to be advocating for democracy.
As for Mexico. They have not exactly been a country as long as us. Consider their history in the 19th century: invaded and colonized by France (Emperor Maximilien etc.); invaded and plundered by the US (hence, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California etc.). And on. To argue that they should be better off because they have had the same chances we have is, well, pretty foolish. Broadly, though, if you know the history of Latin America and our policies towards it -- you will see that a large portion of their problem is our treatment of them. Even just look at the 80s and Reagan's support of death squads in Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Columbia. Where do you think so many of those violent gangs come from? They are remnants of our own policies.
And Mogas -- what? Why are you writing about Africa? Are they crossing the border? Do we need to build a wall to keep out Africans too? I don't see your point. |
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"They have not exactly been a country as long as us. Consider their history in the 19th century: invaded and colonized by France (Emperor Maximilien etc.);"
Ecuses, excuses.
The United States has been clonized not only by Britian, parts of these United States have been colonized by the Dutch, The French, etc.
Even after the war of independence, the United States was still invaded by the British, and the White House burned down. All that didn't stop the hard warking, creative people of these United States from building the most powerful country n the planet. Meanwhile, Mexicans continued to screw up their country.
"To argue that they should be better off because they have had the same chances we have is, well, pretty foolish"
Nope.
It's the only argument that makes any sense. |
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"Even just look at the 80s and Reagan's support of death squads in Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Columbia"
Death squads and cut-thraots have existed in South America long before Ronald Reagan was born. Death squads are as South American as Spanish and Portuguese. South American countries have always been corrupt and sleazy, and they were that way even before America was founded as an idepenedednt country.
Don't go blaming their inherent corruption and propensity to slit the throats of their fellow man on America.
As far as the loony left liberal, hate-America crowd is concerned, every malaise in every part of the planet is America's fault, even the problems that existed in old urope long before modern America was even founded. That of coyrse is rubbish.
No country has done more to bring peace and prosperity to other countries in the history of mankind than America has.
All those America-hating Frenchies would be speaking German and kissing Hitler's boots today, without massive American sacrifices in blood, money, equipment etc. |
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Obviously I am not a republican
Although I've thought I was for the last 45 years, because I am one of the few in that party that actually posesses a brain. Hey I voted for Nixon - pathetic liberal that he was. I've come to that conclusion due to the remarks of people like Hewitt, Barnett, and of course extremely deep thinkers like Pasadena Phil and BrianR above.
Read through this thread so-called conservatives. Read the calls for a Berlin style wall, the calls for machine gun nests. This is what our party has become.
Instead of the thoughtful party we have become the party of lemmings. A party led by people like Hewitt who actually profits from people being outraged and behaves accordingly.
Look at BrianR's post at 12:36pm. He can think of nothing but a 300 mile fence - on a 2000 mile border mind you - to solve the problem. Quite the deep thinker, our BrianR.
Hey guys? REAL Conservatives - not the kind that make money off controversy like Hewitt - would come up with a way for the market to solve this. Duh.
#1 - You have an enormous demand for cheap labor in the US.
#2 - You have an enormous supply of cheap - almost free - labor immediately south of the US in Mexico.
What do you think is going to result from that formulation?
Any idiot can see you have to address one or the other side of that equation. I don't care if you erect a 2000 mile wall 100' high it will not solve the problem.
Only *LIBERALS* think the government can magically wave its magic wand (build a wall, shoot somebody, slap someone in handcuffs, etcetera) to solve problems like this. And that, sadly, is what the thinking in this thread represents.
But by all means, keep telling yourself that it is conservative to think the US government can solve this problem AT THE POINT OF A GUN. |
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"You guys aren't conservative.
Obviously I am not a republican "
It would appear to me you are neither.
"Instead of the thoughtful party we have become the party of lemmings."
So which is it, are you or are you not a Republican?
In your first statment you say you are not a Republican, then you follow that up by saying you "we have become a party of lemmings". You and who exactly?
BTW, the Republican Party would be a party of lemmings if we blindly followed Jorge Bush off the edge of a sharp cliff like he wants to lead us. Not being lemmings, we have refused to follow the "great leader" down to the abyss. If Bush wants to jump off a cliff, he can do it by himself ..together with his pals, Ted "The Swimmer" Kennedy, Juan McCain, etc. |
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You'd be a party of lemmings if you follow emotion rather than logic, which sadly is all too obviously the tendency of the people in this thread.
Conservatives believe in market principles. You guys have utterly abandoned those principles in favor of a Jesse Jackson-type shrieking mob mentality.
It isn't that difficult to come up with ways the market could deal with this problem with at most modest tweaking, with *NO* Berlin wall, with *NO* machine gun nests. |
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" Read the calls for a Berlin style wall, the calls for machine gun nests. "
As has been pointed out over and over and over again, there is a VAST difference between commiunist East German built Berlin Wall, that was designed to keep their own citzens inside their country, and a wall built by a free, democratic America to keep Mexican illegals OUT of our country and protect US citizens from Mexican murderers, rapists and every kind of undesireable known to man.
"REAL Conservatives - not the kind that make money off controversy like Hewitt "
Perhaps you wil explain how Hugh is busy "making money off this controversy" as you put it, yes?
"#1 - You have an enormous demand for cheap labor in the US."
Are you for real?
Hey, why don't you go carry all that cheap labor in China to go do a the work in Europe? It'd "save" European companies hundreds of billions n lobor costs too, no?
Every business in every country would just love to pay starvation wages to their workers amd maximise profits, fail to abide by labor and immigration laws, and cut corners. In real life, that is not going to happen. That's why we have immigration and labor laws.
"#2 - You have an enormous supply of cheap - almost free - labor immediately south of the US in Mexico."
If you think labor from Mexico is 'cheap" or "almost free" you are smoking crack.
You might want to check the accounts of local goverments across the country, that are being forced tp spend hundreds of billions of dollars EXTRA on health care, law enforecment, education etc to deal with problems brought upon us by these illegals.
There is nothing like a free lunch anywhere. Someone (usually the American txapayer like myself) always ends up paying for it. |
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"You'd be a party of lemmings if you follow emotion rather than logic"
Nope.
I'd be a limming if I followed "Chairman Jorge Bush" blindly off a cliff. That's what lemmings do.
After all, Jorge Bush is the leader of the Republican Part, no?
Apply any logic to the henious Bush-Kennedy amnesty bill, and there is only one conclusion one can come to: That terrible bill has to die.
"Conservatives believe in market principles. "
Conservatives believe in market principles backed by strong rule of low and due process. Without strong enforcemnt by the SEC and other regulatory bodies, our entire financial markets will collapse. Just think Enron, Global Crossing etc.
Free markets don't mean freedom to break the law. This is not the woild west. |
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Somebody quick find a REAL Republican, a conservative to run against Lindsay Graham and all the Anti-RINO townhallers can send money!
What a message we can send!
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From the department of missing the point comes this:
"Conservatives believe in market principles backed by strong rule of low and due process. Without strong enforcemnt by the SEC and other regulatory bodies, our entire financial markets will collapse. Just think Enron, Global Crossing etc.
Free markets don't mean freedom to break the law. This is not the woild west."
Well thank heavens for the rule of low keeping us from the rule of the woild west.
And that, of course, speaks for this entire thread. |
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Well thank heavens for the rule of low keeping us from the rule of the woild west."
The last refuge of a loony left scoundrel: Pounce on typos(which are inevtiable when one is typing fast in an online debate) when he is getting beaten in any debate on an online board.
You gotta do better than that.
Bottom line: Your attempt to use the "free markets" argument to justify open borders and unlimited invasion of this country by Mexican criminals remains beaten down.
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"In the end Dwiker has a valid observation."
In the end, Dwiker has nothing.
"one must recognize that there are millions of illegals here."
Yes. And the first thing this goverment should do, is SECURE OUR BORDERS, and crack down hard on those who employ illegals.
Instead the Bush-Kennedy bill is in effect sending an open invitation to every criminal in Mexico and terrorist in the Mid-East to come here, in the firm belief that all they have to do is produce a fake piece of paper, with a fake name, saying that they have been in this country before Jan 1st 2007, and bingo! they get a Z visa after a "background check" that shouldn't take more than 24 hours after they have applied for the z visa, or they get the z visa anyway.
That's nuts!
I will refer readers to this youtube video from Lou Dobs, which pretty much covers it. It's enough to make one livid with rage:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=j1n7xgD1Keg
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"Please don't tell me that your only method of discussion with those you disagree with is insulting them into submission"
Given that "Dwiker" first came out with the personal the attacks, and I merely defended myself, I suggest you go to the source of that particular problem, and have a word with him instead. |
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Illegal immigration to the US, if for no other reason, needs to be stopped for Mexico’s citizens’ greater good. Mexico will never change if the US remains the safety valve for that country. If Cuba retained the hundreds of thousand of Cubans now in the US, there just might be a different government now in power. I know, this is not a proper humanitarian attitude, but just as generals know that one has to sacrifice a number of soldiers to prevent the loss of thousands and win the battle, it should be known by the educated that history is replete with stories of sacrifice for the greater good. And no country can be improved without some sacrifice. Few care to be those that have to sacrifice, but it remains necessary. MLK knew. |
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Are you suggesting that Martin Luther King Jr. would take the position that forcing the people of Mexico to live in miserable conditions would be a humanitarian position? Madness. I think I mind the semi-overt racist "screw 'em" attitude less than the people who try to imply that it will be better for Mexico if we shut down the border. Spare me the rationalizations. It reminds me of the old maxim: "pity poor Mexico: so far from God, so close to the United States." |
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"I think I mind the semi-overt racist "screw 'em" attitude less than the people who try to imply that it will be better for Mexico if we shut down the border"
The United States Senate was not elected into office to do what is best for Mexico. They were elected by Americans do defend the American constitution of these United States and do what is best for the United States/Americans.
Let the Mexican goverment worry about what to do about their own poor and umemployed. That's what the goverment of Mexico was elected for. |
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And I bet you've visted Mexico and been on the border right?
Soory bud but we arre the safety valve for Mexico.
Why would their goverment care to change when we take care of it.
By the way. I worked as a medic along the border in San Diego. You know nothing about the people or the border. |
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Manfred, read what I wrote, not what you believe I wrote. No, I did not write that MLK would approve of Mexicans suffering; he, MLK sacrificed for OUR country; an example of one who sacrificed and changed OUR COUNTRY FOR THE BETTER. I doubt that he wished for death but he did place his life at risk for the better good for blacks, the American people ands for us living up to our constitution's values. Maybe if the Mexicans stayed in Mexico, they would find their MLK to follow and sacrifice some for their country's greater good. While from a personal perspective leaving Mexico may improve each illegal's life, but it does not improve THEIR country by fleeing. |
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