Sunday, June 08, 2008
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Misleading Memorial To Political Correctness
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Posted by:
Michael Medved at
11:05 PM
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Germany recently unveiled a memorial to what the press called “the Nazis’ long-ignored gay victims.” Across the road from Berlin’s monument to Jewish Holocaust victims, the new shrine features a pavilion-sized concrete slab with a window through which visitors view a video of two men kissing. This commemoration follows a longstanding, misleading attempt to depict homosexuals as prime targets of Hitler. In fact, even historical material released with the memorial noted only “an estimated 10,000 to 15,000 gay men deported to concentration camps” –and by no means all of them were killed. While homosexuals surely outnumbered the less-than-one-percent of the German population that was Jewish, Jewish victims of Nazi death camps outnumbered estimated gay victims by more than 500 to 1. Persecution of any group deserves condemnation and remembrance, but it’s wrong to exaggerate the extent of victimization for politically correct P.R. purposes.
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I'm Jewish and by does Medved reflect badly on the rest of us. The Shoah is not a uniquely Jewish event, despite what "woe is me" neo-con Jews like Medved demand. While Jews were the primary target of Nazi rage we were not the sole target and whining whenever the suffering of others is recognized does nothing but paint all Jews in a negative light.
What a putz.
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Ewe tree ez dumkopfs.
We all know what the purpose of this "shrine" is; to further the gay rights agenda. |
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Your first paragraph is absolutely right. Medved's weaknesses as an editorial writer are on full display here.
Your second paragraph is absolutely WRONG. Michael is an outspoken member of the right wing -- NOT their official spokesman. And on certain issues, such as this one, his views are NOT representative of conservatives in general, or the right wing in particular. |
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The strength to reveal his prejudices, albeit from the weak position of being selective with the facts.
"Across the road from Berlin’s monument to Jewish Holocaust victims"
-- This isn't merely informational; he's also revealing his personal offense regarding the location, and establishing a basis for the charge of political correctness.
"This commemoration follows a longstanding, misleading attempt to depict homosexuals as prime targets of Hitler."
-- This sentence follows a longstanding pattern of Medved's: making a sweeping assertion without citing a single example. He seems to take it as a given that we are going to fact-check his non-specific statement. Frankly, we shouldn't have to do that.
"an estimated 10,000 to 15,000 gay men deported to concentration camps"
-- He deliberately omits the preceding sentence from the AP article: "Nazi Germany declared homosexuality a threat to the German race and convicted some 50,000 homosexuals as criminals." 50k looks more significant than 10-15k. He selectively used only those numbers that support his point.
"it’s wrong to exaggerate the extent of victimization for politically correct P.R. purposes."
-- The Holocaust Memorial occupies nearly 5 acres, and consists of 2700 slabs; the gay victims memorial consists of one slab, equivalent in size to one of the largest Holocaust Memorial slabs, and occupies a space equivalent to the living room in your house. |
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Michael and my buddy Reck have a point. Berlin's openly gay mayor made a point of saying, "This memorial is important from two points of view -- to commemorate the victims, but also to make clear that even today, after we have achieved so much in terms of equal treatment, discrimination still exists daily." That almost sounds like 'Look at what happens when discrimination gets out of control,' as if there is a possibility of this situation repeating itself (outside of the Muslim world, that is); it could reasonably be seen as a scare tactic. Plus, he's stating outright that it has a purpose beyond memorializing those victims of the Nazis.
Maybe I'm extra sensitive due to the presence of the opinionated, activist, POS 9/11 Memorial we have in Phoenix, but a memorial that does anything other than honor those who died, it seems to me, can't help but dilute its import and impact. Similarly, I think Medved's only real objection is to the "video of two men kissing". His other points are just there to bolster this one objection.
On the other hand, as a minority group that WAS specifically targeted by the Nazis, don't they rate one slab in honor of their lives? In talking about the size disparity I forgot to mention: the gay memorial cost a million dollars. The Holocaust Memorial cost 25 million Euros. The fact that they are across the road from each other should provide a clear contrast in the number of each group that were killed, while at the same time honoring both. |
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this post from Medved is pathetic and homophobic. So 10,000 lives is not enough to commemorate? |
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The gay agenda continues to rewrite history. The gays in the US started their agenda with the "what consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes is nobody business" to mask their deviant lifestyle. Now it's gay parades down main streets and in your face public flaunting of the gay lifestyle. There is now a gay gene. The question of how could a gay gene survive the evolutionary process of natural selection when so few gay genes would seek the opposite sex has probably not been fully explored.
Now a court has cut from whole cloth the right for gays to intrude into the institution of marriage. I'm sure that not only a million dollar statue to gayness is in the works but "The Gay Medal for Heroism" as well. |
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There is plenty to criticize about PC, the left-wing, radical politics, etc. But when you stoop to complaining about remembering Hitler's victims you have really stooped too far. Shame on you. |
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king makes a decent point about honoring victims targeted by Hitler. The thing is (re: homosexuals), if the gay lobby (for lack of a better term) were not so aggressive ( ie.if you disagree w/ anything they say your homophobic) in their attempts to change laws (ect), they might find a more receptive audience.
How about this: everyone is seen as equal under the law regardless of race, ethinticity, gender, sexual preference, religious (or non) beliefs, ect. W/out special hate laws/quotas/and preferential treatment.
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How about this: everyone is seen as equal under the law regardless of race, ethinticity, gender, sexual preference, religious (or non) beliefs, ect. W/out special hate laws/quotas/and preferential treatment.
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How about this: In addition to memorializing homosexuals that died in the Nazi holocaust, this memorial is a reminder that not everyone (specifically gay people in this instance) has always been or is always treated or seen as equal under the law. |
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anyone who disagrees with the promotion of homosexual disorder has a "phobia". Your all tasteless for not being able to disagree respectfully, instead you have to charge someone with silly hate filled rhetoric. all of you homophobe-peddlers should look in the mirror, your the ones who should feel shame, because your ignorant and are incapable of keeping your emotions in check. your knowledgeaphobes. |
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I guess that Medved just wants to ignore the fact homosexuals were victims of the Final Solution? |
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....Medved's postings become more and more irrational every day.
Of course the gays were targeted by the Nazis.
To argue over who has suffered the most is tacky and in very poor taste. I think this is a long over-due memorial, and it in no way detracts from any other memorial of the Holocuast. It only expands and enhances our understanding of what happened.
Oy Vey and Shame on Medved -- again! |
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“The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party is a thoroughly researched, eminently readable, demolition of the “gay” myth, symbolized by the pink triangle, that the Nazis were anti-homosexual. The deep roots of homosexuality in the Nazi party are brilliantly exposed . . .”
Dr. Howard Hurwitz, Family Defense Council
“As a Jewish scholar who lost hundreds of her family in the Holocaust, I welcome The Pink Swastika as courageous and timely . . . Lively and Abrams reveal the reigning “gay history” as revisionist and expose the supermale German homosexuals for what they were - Nazi brutes, not Nazi victims.”
Dr. Judith Reisman, Institute for Media Education
“The Pink Swastika is a tremendously valuable book, replete with impressive documentation presented in a compelling fashion.” William Grigg, The New American
“...exposes numerous lies, and tears away many myths. Essential reading, it is a formidable boulder cast into the path of the onrushing homosexual express...”
Stan Goodenough, Middle East Intelligence Digest
“The Pink Swastika is a powerful exposure of pre-World War II Germany and its quest for reviving and imitating a Hellenistic-paganistic idea of homo-eroticism and militarism.”
Dr. Mordechai Nisan, Hebrew University of Jerusalem
“Lively and Abrams call attention to what Hitlerism really stood for, abortion, euthanasia, hatred of Jews, and, very emphatically, homosexuality. This many of us knew in the 1930’s; it was common knowledge, but now it is denied...”
R. J. Rushdoony, The Chalcedon Report
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You want me to add to "everyone is seen as equal under the law"? Well, I won't. What you're (I think) askn is for a special above and beyond equality.
Swampfox,
Yes, Hitler targeted homosexuals..and gypsies..and Christians..and Germans who didn't agree w/ him..ect.
I assume you'll be coming out for memorials for these groups as well. |
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I can't speak for Swampfox but I am all for memorials for other groups affected by the holocaust. I wouldn't be suprised if they already exist for many of the other groups targeted by the Nazis.
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I have visited Point du Hoc in Normandy and seen the shocking number of American graves marked with white crosses at Normandy. I have been to the area of the Battle of Bulge. I have stood at the very spot where the bridge once stood over the Rhine river, the railroad bridge at Remagan. And, I have spent the week at the castle where the Nazi Wehrmacht high command was before operation Market Garden, its still privately owned. I visited the Anne Frank house. I guess this little memorial to the gay victims of the Nazi "Final Solution" for some reason bothers you. |
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"an estimated 10,000 to 15,000 gay men deported to concentration camps"
So, Medved, what number would cross the threshold for being significant in your mind?
20,000? A million?
Loser. |
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"This commemoration follows a longstanding, misleading attempt to depict homosexuals as prime targets of Hitler."
Are those with even a slight knowledge of the Holocaust going to be persuaded that the Jews were a secondary or tertiary target of the Nazi regime?
I think not.
Only idiots could be so easily mislead, but to be fair, Mr. Medved's article does a fine job attempting to straighten out the perceptions of those few idiots. Whew! I was seriously worried about those people. Thanks, Mr. Medved.
So, is it the size of the memorial that upsets Mr. Medved?
The size of the two memorials relative to one another does a fair, not perfect, job of putting the loss of lives from the two groups into perspective. But Mr.Medved apparently feels the size of one memorial is purposefully out of scale, leading to exaggeration. I admire Mr. Medved's desire for Teutonic precision and accuracy, but in this instance, it is misplaced.
"..but it’s wrong to exaggerate the extent of victimization for politically correct P.R. purposes."
It wasn't exaggerated. Mr.Medved himself cites the numbers included with the historical information given to memorial visitors, so I fail to see any exaggeration. |
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Quoted from the Pink Swastika, Homosexuality in the Concentration Camps.............
"Yet, as we have noted, some homosexuals did in fact die in Nazi concentration camps. We do not diminish the tragedy of any life lost under the Nazi reign of terror; however, we must reject the implication that homosexuals as a class should be given moral equivalency to the Jewish people and other victims of genocide. There are five reasons why we must reject this claim of the revisionists.
First, we know that regardless of Himmler’s anti-homosexual rhetoric, homosexuals as a class were never targeted for extermination, as their continued role in the Third Reich demonstrates.
Second, those homosexuals who died did so primarily as the result of mistreatment and disease in slave-labor camps -- not in the gas chambers. As reported in the Washington Blade
John Fout, professor of history...said his research shows that about 50,000 men were imprisoned for homosexual related “offenses” by the Nazis between 1933 and 1945. Most of them, he said, were imprisoned for relatively short sentences and in regular German prisons, not concentration camps as has been generally believed (Researcher says Nazi persecution not systematic, The Washington Blade, May 22, 1998).
Third, though we cannot condone the form of punishment meted out by the Nazis, homosexual sodomy was a legitimate crime of long-standing for which individuals were being jailed both before and after the Nazi Regime (and in this country during the same time period). Indeed, Fout acknowledges that rather than being arrested indiscriminately simply for “being” a homosexual, “the overwhelming majority of those arrested...were charged with engaging in sex in public places, such as parks and public restrooms” (ibid). This is in contrast to the internment of Jewish people, whose ethnicity is morally (and in pre-Nazi Germany, legally) neutral.
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Fourth, the actual number of homosexuals in the camps was a tiny fraction of both the estimated number of homosexuals in Germany and the estimate of the camp population. The camp homosexual population, estimated at 5,000-15,000 by Fout and by Joan Ringelheim of the US Holocaust museum (Rose:40), contained an undetermined percentage of non-homosexuals falsely labeled as homosexuals (see section titled “Anti-homosexual Policies” above). Homosexuals who died were “a small fraction of less than 1 percent” of homosexuals in Nazi-occupied Europe (S. Katz:146), compared to more than 85 percent of European Jewry. To be more specific, Buchenwald was the camp with the highest number of supposed homosexual prisoners. According to Grau, it’s annual population count of “pink triangles” peaked at just 189 in 1944, with fewer than 100 such prisoners in the years prior to 1942. “The figures were small in comparison with the total number of prisoners there -- well below one percent in every year” (Grau:264).
Fifth and last, many of the guards and administrators responsible for the infamous concentration camp atrocities were homosexuals themselves, which negates the idea that homosexuals in general were being persecuted and interned."
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"Second, those homosexuals who died did so primarily as the result of mistreatment and disease in slave-labor camps -- not in the gas chambers"
I'm frankly quite floored that you could make an argument like that. What's wrong with you? |
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Swampfox,
When you're ready to debate the legitimacy of knowingly placing children in borderline caretaker environments for children, regardless of the gender of the caretaker environment and its socioeconomic status, by unethical if not antisocial neurotic legal and medical professionals, then we'll talk.
There's no debate regarding the legal views of an LGBT legal organization. What about the views of the GayCLU and the Lambda Legal Defense Fund? |
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What in the heck are you talking about in your post of 5:45? |
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all information.
It means read a book......... |
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...it does, a bit. But,not for the reasons I'm sure your alluding to.
All people, regardless of their sexual "preference" are people, and certainly shouldn't be targeted for mistreatment. But no, I will not condone homosexuality. This is an unnatural behavior that people engage in outta choice. And as much as I feel they have the right to do it (whether I agree w/ them "doin" it or not), I also have the right to state that I believe it is wrong. |
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On the issue of immigrants underepresented in jails. True immigrants are vetted with background checks so would neccessarily have a much lower crime rate. Daaahhhh! You bleepin bleep. So by combining immigrants with the misnamed foreign nationals whose first step into the country was that of breaking the law you are spreading propoganda by MISLEADING people with skewed statistics. Anyways, the foreign nationals here illegaly are 30% minimum of all jail populations. Do not lump those here legally with those here illegally again in prison statistics. |
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You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you then telling me that heterosexuals don't engage in the same activities? Sodomy is sodomy, look up the definition.
I certainly did not choose to be gay. In fact I am probably the only virgin posting on this board. Does someone who is gay choose to engage in homosexual activity. Of course they do. So do heterosexuals. Did I choose to have a bout of major depression last year and nearly take my life? No. The reason was that I could no longer remain quiet about my sexual orientation. |
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I was a history major in college and the horrid history of Third Reich has been one my favorite subjects. Why did perhaps one of the most civilized nations elect Hitler and follow him to their own destruction?
I have even read the same tripe that you recite in the original American magazines that were published in the 1930s. Can you imagine Time magazine bringing up the subject of homosexuality in the puritanical 1930s? Homosexuality has always been used as a slur. The French called the German qu@@rs and the Germans in turn called the French qu@@rs? And, the Americans called the British, the French and the Germans qu@@rs.
Has anyone determined if Montgomery was homosexual?
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No, but we know Monte was a crappy general. |
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generals' love...
is themselves. |
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Generals AND politicians (the higher office they hold) love themselves. It is part of their psychological makeup.
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You are Political Correctness MM!
Has your Zionist parade been rained on? |
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I guess they probably do, but yuuuck!
I hear what your sayn and I'm guessn that bein a virgin is based on a mutual agreement between us that it's not the right thing to do. I have to say that you are the first gay person honest enough to say that sex (whatever kind) is by choice. And (tho it may not mean much) you have my respect.
We ALL struggle w/ certain things, mine was drugs. Durin my 20's I was certainly no virgin to em. I don't know how long you've had this conflict goin on in your life, but you certainly possess more will power than I ever did.
Like an addictive person will, mine turned into other (substitute) addictions; the last one bein work. Oh, it (and the stress that came w/ it) ruled my life. One day I was set free from all addiction/destructive behavior/anxiety.
Wanna know how? |
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RecknHavic, I have not earned any gold stars for my not having "loved" someone. It tore me apart. I never dated after high school. I didn't want to lead any women on. I avoided all conversations about sex. I don't think that you know just how hard that accomplishment was? Of course some people thought that I was gay. Some people, not many, even had the nerve to ask me at one time. My response was, "not the last time that I checked." You talk about work and burying yourself into that..........I know what that is all about. I have to go on now and live the rest of my life and be open about my sexuality to those who might be interested. And, if I find someone to love it will not be just a whim.
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Ok. You've been liberated admittn (not here) your "orientation" to those who know you in the real world. That took real courage.
But what kinda victory would it be to overcome that orientation. It'd be a pretty great one. |
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Oh, I see we have to discuss sodomy, and look, Swampfox is here. That is so wild. |
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"It means read a book."
-- Everybody sit down and read the ONE book this guy read, and take it as gospel like he does.
"regardless of Himmler’s anti-homosexual rhetoric, homosexuals as a class were never targeted for extermination, as their continued role in the Third Reich demonstrates."
-- Was he making unapproved statements? By "continued role" you mean alleged homosexuals, in positions of authority, whose preference may or may not have been known by their superiors; and as a consequence of their positions, may have been allowed to play by a different set of rules.
"homosexuals who died did so primarily as the result of mistreatment and disease in slave-labor camps -- not in the gas chambers."
-- That makes it better? The Nazis were meticulous record-keepers; they KNEW how low the survivability rate was for the people in camps who weren't sent to the gas chambers.
"homosexual sodomy was a legitimate crime of long-standing for which individuals were being jailed"
-- The "sovereign nation" defense? Classy. I'm sure "concentration camp" and "death sentence" were written into the law, making it all morally legit.
"the actual number of homosexuals in the camps was a tiny fraction of both the estimated number of homosexuals in Germany and the estimate of the camp population."
-- The Medved defense: they only targeted SOME members of that minority group, so it's no big deal.
"many of the guards and administrators responsible for the infamous concentration camp atrocities were homosexuals themselves, which negates the idea that homosexuals in general were being persecuted and interned."
-- Yeah, because there's no chance that they would allow some of their fellow homosexuals to be persecuted without speaking up, lest they suffer the same fate; right? |
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Ytrium writes, "Shocked reader - Oh, I see we have to discuss sodomy, and look, Swampfox is here. That is so wild." No, we are here because Medved objects to a little memorial to the gay victims of the "Final Solution". He seems that there weren't enough gay victims to matter. Can we deduce from that he thinks that Hitler should have gotten at least one or two million? |
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Here's the story referenced by Medved, including a photo of the memorial that shows its scale:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080527/ap_on_re_eu/germany_naz is_gays
Here's a link to an aerial photo of the Holocaust memorial:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HolocaustMahnmalLuft.jpg
So is it political correctness? equivalence? or is it a small gesture that doesn't diminish the honoring of Jews slaughtered by the Nazis AT ALL? |
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Sorry about the bad link. Go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_ of_Europe
Scroll down and click on the photo labeled "An aerial view of the Memorial site". Focus on one of the tallest blocks in the photo with the perspective that the memorial to gay victims of the Nazis is that size. Then expand your vision to encompass the entire field. Do you think that Medved's 500 to 1 ratio of concentration camp deaths is well-served by this display? Does not the fact that the memorial to gays is right across the street provide a clear contrast regarding how many members of each group were victims? |
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I can appreciate some arguments, but I do not know how homosexuals were documented back then in 1940's Europe.
What if the "gays" were, in fact, 68% Jewish and 22% Gypsies, which would make them targets of the Darwinistic, Nazi socialist party, seeking a perfected human race, and only coincidentally homosexuals.
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If we're all lookin to be so fair here than I guess we'll be hearn about that, soon to come, Memorial For Christians killed by the Nazis. I envision a window where you look in and see someone praying; perhaps a picture of Jesus.
Come on PCers, fair is as fair does.
In Poland alone thousands of Christians were summarily executed, burned alive or shipped off to concentration camps for aiding Jews in their attempt to flee the SS. And there were those such as Dietrict Bonhoeffer (pastor who founded the Confessional Church in Germany) who was hung for standing up to Hitler's German (false) Christian Church.
Are the lives of these people not worthy of a memorial too? |
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Given the size of the Holocaust Memorial, a similar memorial to Hitler's homosexual victims should be about 16x13 feet and one to the victims of 9/11 should be about the size of a dining-room table. Is that an appropriate size for 9/11? Or maybe should we not be using "the ratio of number killed to square feet" as the way to design our memorials? |
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Conservatives bitterly decry treating people as members of a group and not as individual for purposes such as affirmative action. They are right to do so.
Somehow, this ostensible principle has dissolved in the case in favor of a niggling debate over whether the homosexuals were murdered as members of a generally targeted group or as members of a group targeted when it served the needs of the Nazis. Are these people really arguing that mass murder is a lesser offense when coupled with hypocrisy?
Quibbling over the exact nature of who was targeted and why is a game for holocaust deniers. Every single murder by the Nazis was an equal crime against humanity. It is an historical fact that large numbers of people were killed for being , or being accused of being, homosexuals.
A person who claims a belief in absolute morality should avoid arguments of moral relativity when faced with undiluted evil. Medved should be ashamed of himself. |
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...somebody in Boston,
You don't suppose that this particular group was selected to recieve recognition for other reasons.
Really? |
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On the one hand Medved points out that "historical material released with the memorial noted only 'an estimated 10,000 to 15,000 gay men deported to concentration camps'" but then he bemoans that "it’s wrong to exaggerate the extent of victimization for politically correct P.R. purposes."
How can the exhibit possibly be accused of exaggerating when it supplies the very numbers that Medved somehow thinks undermine it?
Some days I could swear that he simply doesn't think before typing. |
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Michael Medved has disgraced himself, and has manipulated one of the most barbaric atrocities ever perpetrated by mankind, so as to support his irrational bigotry and hatred of gay persons.
Whether 50,000 gay persons were slaughtered, or whether 10,000 or 15,000 gay persons were slaughtered, is incidental to the fact that the Nazis did everything in their (considerable) power to "cleanse" German society of "perverts" (i.e., gay men and lesbians). By asserting that the memorial to the gay victims of the Holocaust (or Shoah) is a "misleading memorial to political correctness," Medved has established that he believes in moral relativism, after all. (I have long maintained that ALL conservatives believe in moral relativism, when push comes to shove).
Counting the number of people murdered and then asserting that one mass murder was "less evil" than another mass murder is grotesque and obscene. Yet this is PRECISELY what Medved has done, in his "My Holocaust was worse than your Holocaust" game.
Medved is flirting with Holocaust denial.
The Holocaust was not just a crime against humanity. It was an affront to the essence of what it means to be a human being. Those men and women who were not killed by Zyklon B were killed by being worked to death and starved to death. In Medved's world of moral relativism, the latter crimes appear to be less worthy of condemnation than the former crimes.
Medved and those who support him with respect to this issue have prostituted the Holocaust for their personal propaganda purposes. May they one day be given the opportunity to look back to this moment, and to hang their heads in shame.
This is proof (if ever proof were needed) that conservatives are just as likely to resort to moral relativism as are liberals.
PHILIP CHANDLER
This assumes, of course, that |
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Goforth writes: "The question of how....not been fully explored.
Now a court has cut from whole cloth the right for gays to intrude into the institution of marriage. I'm sure that not only a million dollar statue to gayness is in the works but "The Gay Medal for Heroism" as well."
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Goforth appears to be ignorant as to how recessive genes are expressed, and the circumstances under which genes can and cannot be "bred out" of a population. But setting aside his obvious ignorance, it should be noted that the most promising theory that explains male homosexuality involves hormonal influences acting very early in the development of the fetus.
As for the California Supreme Court decision -- far from being plucked out of "whole cloth," this decision reflected months of painstaking and careful work on the part of the majority (something that was noted even by the dissent). The court applied well-established principles of constitutional interpretation to conclude that the prohibition against gay marriage was violative of both the due process and the equal protection provisions of the California state constitution. Goforth -- have you actually READ the majority decision, authored by Chief Justice George?
Even if forces of bigotry succeed in amending the state constitution in November to eliminate gay marriage, gay persons will continue to be treated as a "suspect class" by California courts and by California law. This is something that CANNOT be disturbed by a constitutional amendment, and it is an issue of even greater significance than the issue of gay marriage. Laws that burden a "suspect class" cannot be sustained absent a showing by the state that the laws in question promote a "compelling" state interest, and are absolutely "necessary" to promote the interest in question.
PHILIP CHANDLER |
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