Thursday, March 13, 2008
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New Poll: McCain Has Cause for Hope / Dems in More Trouble
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Posted by:
Matt Lewis at
8:12 AM
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A new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll shows John McCain is in pretty good shape, all things considered.
As the poll implies, it is a pretty good bet that, had another Republican been nominated, they would now be facing a steeper hill than the one McCain currently faces. Of course, McCain is helped by the continued Democratic in-fighting. Still, considering the political environment, he is doing very well ...
Here are some important things of note (via the McCain campaign):
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- Despite a tarnished Republican brand, John McCain enjoys a remarkably strong image ratio of 47 Fav/27 Unfav.
- A couple findings in the new poll capture how conflicted Americans are. By a 13-point margin, 50% to 37%, registered voters say they would prefer a Democrat to be elected president. When asked to choose specifically between Arizona Sen. McCain and either Democrat, the results in each case are a statistical tie.
- "Americans can visualize John McCain behind the desk in the Oval Office," said Mr. [Democratic pollster Peter] Hart.
- The issues environment remains very treacherous for Republicans as a whole.
Update: The deeper I dig into this poll, the more troubling it is for the Dems ...
- Bill Clinton's favorability rating is now negative 3. His popularity has tanked among African-American voters.
- The black/white divide is huge. Obama is getting 90% of the black vote. Black voters don't seem to be interested in supporting Hillary..
- ALSO more importantly... Hillary supporters will not be satisfied if obama is the nominee.
- Also, look for the data on whether dem voters think a "hillary super-delegate" win would make her a legitimate nominee. Only 38% said no. 29% said yes. 28% have no opinion either way.
- And Hillary wins the "if your primary were held today" question 47-43.
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It's really up to Sen. McCain. If he wants our votes, he has to earn them.
He said he heard us after the last amnesty fight. He heard two things right. We want the border secured and we don't trust them. There apparently was alot he didn't hear.
He hired Juan Hernandez, who represents foreign nationals illegally in our country as his hispanic outreach, instead of reaching out to someone from "You Don't Speak For Me" a group of citizens of hispanic descent who oppose illegal aliens.
He said a couple of weeks ago he would sign McCain/Kennedy if it were put on his desk.
If he wants my vote, there are a couple of things he could do.
1. Publicly dismiss and disavow Juan Hernandez and the Reconquista for which he stands.
2. Apologize for conspiring in secret with La Raza and Ted Kennedy and trying to jam amnesty down our throats.
3. Pledge to veto ANY amnesty bill.
4. Pledge to enforce the laws, including deportation, which is the penalty for illegal aliens.
It's up to Sen. McCain, he can represent the interests of American citizens and uphold the rule of law or he can continue to court the favor of liberals and illegal aliens.
I will not vote for the latter.
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The problem with the polling is that they always use what are known as "likely voters." This doesn't capture any of the new voters that came out by the millions to vote in Democratic primaries.
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The econ is tanking - fast. I tried to buy 100 pounds of wheat yesterday, and found it all but impossible in the usual places. My local store is only allowing 2 sacks per customer. I know, only a mormon would even WANT to buy 100 pounds of wheat. but folks, the local WalMart now has extra security at it's doors, because (according to the manager) the price of groceries will go up 30-45 PERCENT in the next week. This wheat shortage IS cause for alarm. Not only does it effect your bread, but your pasta and other items you buy and put your table to feed your families. Corn is also in very short supply, as wheat farmers have switched to corn, because queen Nancy and King Harry are subsidising corn for ethonal (which costs more to make than they can sell it for). Guess what? Corn is feed for livestock. Oh, let's combine the price of gas, and NOT going to get the oil we have or build new refinery's in how many decades?
We need a guy who does more than play the base on SNL and tell funny, folksy jokes. We need a guy who understands the underpinnings of the economy. We need ROMNEY in McCain's ear, advising him every step of the way through this mess we've created. Seriously folks. Talk to me in a week when your budget gets a bit tighter with higher groceries.
McCain/Romney 08 |
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If it is true that Hillary supporters will indeed be unsatisfied if Obama is the Democrat nominee, then some of those supporters will find it easier to support McCain than Obama. All McCain needs is about 20% of Hillary supporters moving to his camp and Obama is toast.
Remember that Bush was behind in the polls in both elections to Gore and Kerry and still won. All national polls swing to the left because the left tend to like taking phone surveys while people on the right consider them spam and a waste of time and prefer to spend quality time with family. So whenever any news report states McCain is down by 5%, he's really up by 3%. If the polls remain close, McCain will win. With Hillary supporters wanting someone moderate with experience and a realistic plan to leave Iraq (victory over tail-between-legs defeat), I cannot imagine them moving in big numbers to Obama.
This will especially be true once Obama announces his running mate, which will NOT be Hillary, but most likely Bloomberg. Hillary supporters will be really upset with Obama and will revolt to McCain, especially since McCain has been more courteous and respectful in public to Hillary than Obama has. They will see McCain as a gentleman and Obama as petty.
Hopefully, McCain will choose my man, Mitt, as his running mate. That way, he will no longer have to look stupid when answering questions regarding the economy and free market solutions with hands-off government. But that's another conversation..... |
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What you need to understand is the mentality difference between liberals and conservatives:
1. Liberals like answering poll questions over the phone. They think it is fun to chat with strangers. Conservatives hate phone calls at the home during family time so they consider it spam and just hang up. That is why polls leaned towards gore and Kerry before and during the 2000 and 2004 elections, but Bush still won.
2. Liberals have no problem leaving work, if employed, and attend rallies and other campaign events for the Democrat candidate they support. Conservatives do not see attending rallies during work hours as important no matter how much they support their candidate. This is also why Liberals are in the streets protesting everything under the sun while Conservatives are hard at work supporting the American economy.
3. Liberals make decisions based on emotion. Conservatives make decisions based on facts. That is why Obama has more support among Liberals, because his speeches have a lot of "hope" and "change" which make Liberals swoon, without all that unnecessary "policy", "facts", and "accomplishments" talk that would drive Liberals away. We Conservatives "think" about "issues" and "policy" and look forward to reading policy reports from our candidates. Liberals only learn about policies from stump speeches.
Oh, and one more thing. Soon, the American people will have to make a choice: They can either vote for an American hero who desires to "serve" us, the American people, or they can vote for a man with no national policy experience who is too afraid of Brit Hume and Chris Wallace to have a debate on Fox News yet we are to believe he will be "tough" against hostile foreign leaders. Easy choice. |
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JUAN HERNANDEZ TELL US YOUR HEARING IS BAD.
ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE TO IMMIGRANTS AS HOME INVADERS ARE TO HOUSE GUESTS.
HOPE THAT HELPS YOU GET IT. SO FAR YOU HAVE NOT.
ENFORCE THE LAWS.
NO NEW PATH. |
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McCain's folks say "The issues environment remains very treacherous for Republicans as a whole."
Okay, so then it is identity politics, then?
Our war hero versus your black or your woman?
Man, you guys suck. The RNC still doesn't get it. Issues are all that matter. 180 degrees out of phase.
Republicans are not the party of identity politics . . . then again we are talking about McCain. |
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That was a funny post and I agree but real conservatives will stand on principle and not vote for the Hero who gleefully kicks us in the nads every time we're close to victory. Third party this time out for me. Sad that it has come to this. |
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The GOP is no longer a separate party but a subset of the Democratic party. We like to call the whole mess the United Establishment Party. |
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There you go again Lewis trying to sell us that pig just by putting lipstick on it. Sorry we aren't buying.
McCain is untrustworthy.
I agree with Virginia Patriot, McCain needs to sign the "Contract with Conservatives" if he wants the votes of the 52% who would want someone else besides McCain.
I would also ask Lewis why he thinks McCain will be any better at campaiging than GHW Bush in 1992 and Bob Dole in 1996. Both Bush and Dole did NOT energize the Conservative base and the moderates and Independents did NOT help them win did they?
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These polls mean NOTHING and assigning weight to them now is VERY dangerous.
The ONLY poll numbers that really matter -- and reflect the potential landslide loss for McCain in November -- are the voter turnout number on BOTH sides during the primaries. Voter turnout has been HUGE for the Dems... not so much for the GOP. In fact, I don't think the GOP has achieved half of the Dem turnout. And when Romney dropped out, the GOP numbers really took a dive.
My point:
GOP voters are unenthused, unmotivated, and uninspired by John McCain. The sooner folks realize this, the better.
Why is McCain unable to excite the GOP? The answer is clear: They do not trust him to champion THEIR ideals. Until he gains their trust, the GOP will remain unmotivated.
As it stands, the only groups motivated by McCain are the so-called independents and moderates -- two highly unreliable groups who can and will vote however the winds of change direct them. Against Obama, many of these "supporters" will buy-into the Obama hype and abandon McCain.
Still, McCain CAN motivate the GOP by doing the following:
(1) Pick a youthful, energetic, proven CONSERVATIVE for the VP spot
(2) Give the would-be VP a PROMINENT role in the campaign
(3) Make "Success in Iraq" your campaign theme
(4) Pick a handful (5-10) CONSERVATIVE issues (e.g., tax reform, SocSec, wasteful spending, Iraq, Iran, abortion, judges, border fence, etc.) and sign a PLEDGE similar to the "Contract With America"
(5) Work with Bush and the current Congress to effect change NOW (i.e., champion the border fence and get it done)
If McCain did these 5 things, he would energize conservatives and have a shot at winning.
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Mitt would have to be stupid to accept the VP slot on a loser ticket with McCain.
Mitt is smart and flipped and signed the NumbersUSA No Amesty pledge.
McCain refuses to simply sign this pledge and use this issue as the only WINNING ISSUE in November for Republicans.
McCain only has one chance to win in November and that is IF Hillary is able to buy or blackmail enough SuperDelegates to steal the Democrat Nomination from Obama. This would cause race riots at the Democrat Convention and is the ONLY way McCain could win in November.
Mitt is too smart to be on a ticket with McCain.
Now if Huckabee is as stupid as you think then maybe he would accept it. Then you would gain credibility on Townhall if that happened.
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McCain is not very smart. He graduated 5th from the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy [probably close to a D avg for GPA].
Since 2000 he has bet his future on playing appeasement with the MSM and it seems to have worked as far as getting the GOP nomination.
Unfortunately for McCain, the MSM has been playing him for a fool just to set him up so they could easily take him down in November.
There are rumors even now in the press about a huge McCain scandal that will break soon. My guess is that it will be similiar to the Spitzer scandal.
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Mitt said two days ago he would accept and he would consider it an "honor" (his word choice, not mine). Clearly, Mitt is infinitely more forgiving of McCain than I.
If Mitt were the VP, I would vote for him as VP. As much as it pains me, McCain would benefit by default.
I don't see McCain going after a 2nd term, which would make Mitt a shoe-in as McCain's successor.
America only has 5-10 years to get its financial house in order before we WILL be forced to pay massive tax rates (resulting in a Depression). Mitt is the man to accomplish that task. |
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I agree with you that the Bob Dole campaign in 1996 needs to be completely understood by McCain folks if he is to keep from repeating the 1996 results.
As for GHW Bush in 1992, energizing the base had nothing to do with it. I was set to vote for him until he raised taxes after promising he would not. So then I changed my party registration from Republican to Independent and voted for Ross Perot. I was not excited about any of the candidates in 1992, but I hate being lied to, so GHW Bush lost my vote and everyone else adhering to principals.
ScarletPimpernel,
Please rethink your third party choice. I regretted voting for Ross Perot in 1992 because we got Clinton with the largest tax hike in history and the sweltering growth of terrorism being completely ignored. I would much prefer Mitt (or especially Hunter), but I just will not vote in a manner that will allow Clinton or Obama back in office. I love my country too much for that. GW Bush campaigned on compassionate conservatism and turned out to be a spending big-program-expanding RINO. People are not as they seem. I honestly believe this for McCain. McCain as President will be different from McCain as Senator. When confronted with making important decisions instead of relying on 99 fellow senators' opinions, I believe he will lean more Conservative. That is why he has my vote. But I can understand your reservations.
It is obvious that bloggers and Conservative talk radio have a huge job ahead of us no matter who wins. Let us not be silent. I like being annoying. |
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No offense but it is silly to vote based on who is the VP on the ticket. I'm hoping that Romney said what he said knowing the McCain would never ask. By outshining McCain, Mitt would make him look even worse than he is. It would be a big tactical error for Mitt to be part of a McCain ticket. If he is offered the slot and accepts it, I have lost respect for him and will not consider him for the next election. Mitt needs to come out of 2008 unscathed by the upcoming GOP disaster. |
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Don't get me wrong.
I would NEVER -- not in a THOUSAND YEARS -- expect McCain to actually LISTEN to conservatives. If he did ANY of the things I listed, I would be amazed and probably have an aneurism. He's as hard-headed as they come, usually to the detriment of those in his own party.
As far as a forthcoming McCain scandal is concerned, I have mixed feelings about that. He is already such a weak candidate and something big could completely ruin him. I wouldn't know whether to cry or dance. It would probably be a combination of both.
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Who cares what McCain's GPA was?!?! I never understood this reasoning. One of the more laughable statements Obama made early in his campaign was that his foreign policy experience included his years in college majoring in Political Science, specializing in international relations. Wow, I never realized a college major meant experience.
The rest of the business world never even thinks to put college undergraduate majors or achievements on a resume after a few years in the real world. Why do we need to care how McCain did in college?
My college years stunk! I had nearly a 4.0 in high school, but tanked at Penn State (had too much fun). I had a horrible GPA in Aerospace Engineering, but scraped enough at the end to get a job at a defense contractor. It turned out I understood structural strength analysis a lot more than my grades suggested. My hiring manager later told me that they rarely hire people with GPAs higher than 3.5 because they do not want "professors" taking months to design an aircraft part, missing deadlines with financial repercussions from the customer. I switched to developing software for the aerospace industry and enjoy a lead position with six-figures while in my early thirties. You sure would not have guessed that just knowing my college GPA (I think it was 2.7-ish; one semester I had a 1.8 - yuck).
Undergraduate college years only teaches you how to learn what your job will actually teach you, nothing more. Obama is a fool to list his major as experience. We should not judge McCain for his college years. |
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That a GOP disaster NOW is good for America given our IMMEDIATE challenges.
(Please see the blog post regarding U.S. Comptroller General David Walker's assessment of America's financial condition -- it is quite the eye opener! Google it if you have to)
If this were 1996 and America was NOT engaged in a global war and was NOT on the VERGE (yes, we are on the VERGE) of total economic collapse, I would say "Let's have ourselves a REVOLUTION!"
However, I CANNOT -- in good conscience -- aid and abet the Dems in their quest to force America down the path of socialism.
The Great Depression (via FDR) gave us the largest expansion of government and socialism in U.S. history. The New Deal will PALE in comparison to anything Obama will foist upon us WHEN they allow America to slip into another Depression -- and we ARE headed in that direction.
The stakes are simply TOO high.
I hate McCain. But I will not let that hate blind me from the reality of our desperate situation.
Claims that "America will survive Obama" are ignorant, selfish, and ill-informed. We would survive, but only to the tune of massive taxes, defeat in Iraq, expanded government, and a depressed economy.
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McCain is going to be interviewed by Hannity on Hannity/Colmes this evening.
I hope McCain has better answers to Sean's questions than Jack Kemp did last night or McCain will harm himself more than help.
Kemp said we need "Humane" consideration for Illegals. That is code speak for AMNESTY.
I am still hoping McCain gives us some hope but if Jack Kemp was laying the ground work for McCain's answers tonight, I will write a name in in November before voting for McCain (which has been my plan for months if McCain got the top spot-which he did).
The Dems. are giving McCain a fighting chance to win but he just seems to want to give it back to them. My words to McCain. have the right answers tonight or you will have swayed no one but yourself into thinking Conservatives are warming up to you. |
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I will be watching Hannity very closely tonight for any HINT that McCain recognizes the severity of the situation. If McCain truly wants what is best for America, he will run to the right. I don't see him winning without doing that. If the Dems win, America is screwed. |
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I am planning on voting for the Constitution Party for President in November.
I don't expect John McAmnesty to reach out to us Conservatives and actually sign the "Contract with Conservatives". That would upset his friends in the MSM who would ridicule him for pandering to Conservatives. Even though McCain says he is a Conservative, apparently agreeing with Conservatives is considered pandering if you care what the MSM thinks.
I have know John McCain since 1982 when he ran for the US House seat in my district in Arizona. He ONLY won the Republican primary because he spent over $200,000 from the Hensley "organized crime" family fortune to win the primary. He has been bankrolled by those same kind of insider money Republicans ever since.
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Sorry LeeLee,
USA will NOT survive McAmnesty. McCain is also for BIGGER Government, he is planning on RAISING taxes on anything that generates CO2 like cars or Power Plants because he is stupid and agrees with the MSM and buys into the Global Warming Myth.
McCain created more BIG Government with his McCain/Feingold Campaign Finance Reform to regulate FREE Speech.
McCain was part of the problem in Iraq. McCain jumped on the MSM bandwagon early and started criticizing Rumsfield for the bad MSM press which he himself was causing. Go back and look at newsclips where McCain was originally claiming Iraq was going well and would be over soon. Later when the MSM was trying to make it look bad in Iraq, McCain the backstabber jumped in bed with the MSM and started critizing Rumsfield (who was following Military advice).
McCain was part of the problem, enabling the MSM and encouraging the enemny for his own political gain.
He disgusts me.
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LeeLee,
google McCain's wife's father Hensley and how he is connected to Kemper Marley.
Kemper Marley is an organized crime figure in AZ and was implicated in the murder of reporter Don Bolles in AZ. |
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I am with you on nearly EVERYTHING you have mentioned about McCain. I've taken a lot of heat for admitting my hate for the man. But, at least we are honest. I'm convinced McCain also hates most conservatives -- especially those who won't simply roll over for him. Unlike us, McCain is dishonest about his personal disdain for conservatives and thinks that simply calling himself a conservative will make it so.
Nevertheless, I can't bring myself to aid and abet the Dems. Too much IS at stake. |
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Ah, now I see. You live in Arizona and have followed McCain for years. You voting for McCain for President would be like me voting for Arlen Spector, since I've known him for years in Pennsylvania. I see there is no convincing you to vote for McCain. Oh well, I tried.
I must say that I am scared about his global warming stance.
Hubble telescope picked up warming on Jupiter at the same time it picked up warming on Earth. More proof global warming comes from the Sun and not us mere humans.
When Mt. Saint Helens erupted in 1980, it issued more pollution in the air than all of humanity in all the years before 1980. The Earth cleaned itself. Localized smog is the real environmental issue, lost of course in this global warming mess.
The Earth stopped warming in 1998; hasn't been warmer since. Where's the global cooling crowd?
Carbon dioxide is a RESULT of warming, not a CAUSE.
Even if you believe CO2 causes global warming, most estimates put human sourced CO2 output (breathing, cars, airplanes, industry, etc.) at 2% total planet output. Still think humans cause global warming?
So let's see, if America reduces her CO2 output in half (goal of lefties), we would reduce overall Earth CO2 output by a generous .05% (and that is a high estimate) which the Earth will NOT notice, but our economy and very way of life will be destroyed.
Brett, global warming is not a myth. It is a secular religion, which is far scarier. I like the Weather Channel founder's idea of suing Al Gore for fraud. Only in court will the truth come out.
This is what scares me about all three of these candidates for President. McCain just scares me less. I went third party once and we got burned with the first Clinton. I can't go through that again. I understand your position. I hope you can understand mine. |
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Guys, something you all need to wrap your minds around.
Rounding up and deporting 12-20 million "illegal" aliens is a practical impossiblity. Rounding up 3 million is a practical impossibility, which is why Ronald Reagan supported Amnesty in 1986. What went wrong then was that the other parts, securing the border and establishing a method of employee identification, didn't happen.
But the reality is that regardless of what happens with border security, some of those 12 million are going to get amnesty and some of them are going to become citizens eventually. The sooner you accept this truth, the less upset you are going to be when (not if) it happens. |
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Who is talking about rounding and deporting 12-20 million illegals? Just enforce the laws and they will self-deport. Why don't you spend an hour or two reviewing the hundreds of discussions that took place at TH over the past year and a half. You are either brand spanking new to this discussion or are stupid and ignorant beyond belief. That you even have the arrogance to tell us to "get over" ourselves. Arrogance on top of ignorance. Let's enforce only those laws that criminals agree to obey right? |
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I have heard reports that many illegals are voluntarily returning to their home nations simply based on the illegal immigration talk over the last year. Many illegals realize that, once the U.S. starts enforcing its immigration laws, their chance of becoming a U.S. citizen is better if they apply while lawfully residing in their home country -- as opposed to applying while illegally residing in the U.S.
The recent AZ law is a prime example. Illegals are voluntarily fleeing AZ en masse.
Now, if the ENTIRE U.S. followed the AZ approach, just imagine the VOLUNTARY exodus of illegals that would surely result. |
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We the People of the United States of America have the right to have our borders and our laws respected and enforced.
Citizens of other countries illegally in our country have no right to demand anything from our government. They most certainly have the right to petition the governments of their home countries for change if they are unhappy with their home country. If they want to be Americans, we have a path to citizenship, more generous than any other nation, and it starts in their home country.
We need to insist on the equal protection, application and enforcement of the law or devolve into anarchy. Our Republic only functions if everyone follows the same rules. We should not change the laws to accomodate those breaking them.
If America annouces to the world "We can't stop you, so come on in" with another amnesty, the deluge will be overwhelming. If 3,000 a day didn't get your attention, then wait until it's 10,000 a day. We cannot sustain this influx and survive as a nation. We must speak up and speak to each other about this and not let false claims of racism or bigotry be used to intimidate us into silent assent. America is not Congress' to give away. America belongs to We the People. Speak to your neighbors, speak to your coworkers, but please speak up to your Congressmen and Senators. It's O.K. for us to enforce our laws, no really, it is.
Someone please tell Sen. McCain.
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NO one has EVER said round up the illegals.
Citizens(townhall residents) want the laws enforced. Stop trying to create a Straw man argument. That B.S. works at the AL Franken website.
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Only Liberals trying to understand Conservative opinion about illegal immigration claim we want to round up and deport 20 million illegal aliens. That is one of the gripes I have against Michael Medved, as he commonly states this "opinion of some on the Right" on his show.
Conservatives do not want to waste time and budget going after one single illegal immigrant. Here is how we Conservatives want to set the conditions for them to WANT to leave:
1. Pass a law to force the IRS and Social Security departments to share information during a company's employee identification search. Currently, there are rules as to how they can communicate (as with the FBI and CIA pre-Patriot Act). Social Security determines if an itentity is real or fake, but only the IRS can take the action necessary when a company hires an illegal. I understand there is a new database that companies can search to determine if a prospective employee is a US Person (citizen or green card).
2. Treat illegal immigrants presenting false documents to a prospective employer as identity theft. Congress talks a lot about deporting those illegals who commit crimes, but they never include the rampant identity theft as one of those crimes.
3. Make it illegal for banks to provide loans to illegal aliens. No loans, no mortgage.
4. Make it illegal for automobile and housing establishments to lease to an illegal immigrant.
5. Make it illegal for banks to establish accounts for illegal immigrants.
6. Make it illegal for states to issue drivers licenses to illegal immigrants.
7. Make it most uncomfortable to cross our borders illegally by BUILDING THE DARN FENCE. That means double security fence with patrols.
8. Pardon Ramos and Compean IMMEDIATELY to send the signal that the United States supports our border agents and not drug smuggling illegals.
more... |
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9. Deport all illegal aliens that commit non-violent crimes (fraud, identity theft, DUI, etc.). Keep violent illegals in our prisons or they will just come back to the US if deported (they are not the ones here for JOBS).
10. Use federal funding as a means to persuade state and local governments to allow their police departments to assist ICE whenever needed.
As in Oklahoma and even in towns like Hazelton in my state of PA, illegals are leaving in droves when only a few of these measures are implemented at state and local levels. They will WANT to leave. We do not have to waste time and money tracking them down and deporting them. Giving them INCENTIVE to leave is the Conservative way, just as government giving its people the OPPORTUNITY to succeed and not tax and regulate us to death is the Conservative way.
Nice try, JoeB. |
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11. Order National Guard to combat MS-13 and other illegal immigrant gangs. They are targeting our border agents and law enforcement officials (including prosecutors) for hits. Treat them the same as a terrorist group and not as a simple gang. Wipe them out, period. This is no longer a law enforcement issue. |
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On the terrorists angle, here in LA, Mexican gangs are targetting blacks for extermination. It is happening in Highland Park, Canoga Park and Harbor Gateway on a regular basis. The neighborhoods are up in arm about it and exasperated that the mayor (Tony V) and police chief (Bratton) refuse to recognize that it is even racial tension, never mind "ethnic cleansing" as some residents claim. No one disputes that the Mexican Mafia is run out of the state prison system and that they target blacks in prison, why is it so hard to believe that the street gangs they control are doing it outside of prison? It's like Homeland Security automatically declaring that every violent attack by a Muslim in America was not an act of terrorism before anyone has even had a chance to investigate. We live in very Orwellian times. |
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"Great, another ignoramus named Joe
Who is talking about rounding and deporting 12-20 million illegals? Just enforce the laws and they will self-deport. Why don't you spend an hour or two reviewing the hundreds of discussions that took place at TH over the past year and a half. You are either brand spanking new to this discussion or are stupid and ignorant beyond belief. That you even have the arrogance to tell us to "get over" ourselves. Arrogance on top of ignorance. Let's enforce only those laws that criminals agree to obey right?"
Self-deportation. I put that up there with Iraqis will be giving us flowers in the street. The only way that they will self deport is if Mexico becomes more desirable for them than the US is.
When a law is impractical, it is natural that people are going to break it, and other people who see them do it aren't going to care all that much. This is why prohibition failed, why prostitution laws are a joke, and why we have 20 million people who aren't citizens here. As long as you have a shortage of labor in one country and a surplus in another, people are going to migrate.
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I'll just hit the highlights..
1 - 6) I find it funny that a so-called conservative wants to expand the power of the Federal government over individuals, businesses and states rights (something we usually oppose) to scratch this annoying little itch.
7) Fences are useless. Truly. You can climb over them, cut through them or dig under them, or when all else fails, go around them.
8) I agree with this point. Compeon and Ramos were given a raw deal.
9) Won't the non-violent offenders come back, too?
10) You start telling local governments that they can't get their own money out of the Federal government, you are going to have some real problems.
11) Obviously, you've never served in the National Guard. Having them run around enforcing any laws is even scarier than anything MS13 might do. |
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Good suggestions, send them along to Congress.
Right now, everyone needs to contact their Reps. to sign the discharge petition for the SAVE Act. Secure America Verify Employment. They need 218 signatures to get it to the floor for a vote. Pelosi has kept it bottled up in committee. Heath Shuler (D-NC) introduced the bill, his party is trying to stop it, the GOP has finally gotten on board with the discharge petition. Let's get it passed! |
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So the government has no right to enforce laws? Your logic makes no sense whatsoever. Conservatives are not against government, you are confusing us for Libertarians (anarchists). We believe that freedom is derived from virtue, not a natural state of being. A free society is a law-abiding society. We only have as many laws as we need to maintain order by limiting the rights of people who can't exercise them responsibly. If we are going to pass laws, enforce them. The number one responsibility of the federal government is to defend the country and that starts at the border. Walls and fences DO work but they wouldn't be necessary if the government could be trusted to enforce the law without them. We did for over a century with only 2000 border agents when the government had the WILL to do it. We are now governed by an entrenched criminal class who trample all over the constitution and citizens. |
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If you think conservatives are losing, read this:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0308/House_to_go_int o_rare_closed_session.html
Notice how the new November 2006 "Blue Dogs" are doing the work the GOP refused to do. That is why the GOP got trounced last election and why they will get crushed again this November. People want what conservatives stand for. That is how we shut down DC over the amnesty bill. We haven't gone away. We are coiled springs ready to spring into action, just not for the spineless, corrupt GOP. |
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1-6) Most of these laws are already on the books at various state and federal levels. This is why Conservatives commonly state that if we just enforce the laws already on the books, a lot of the illegals would just leave. There are many examples in Arizona, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and my state of Pennsylvania (Hazelton Mayor Lou Barletta is running for Congress - WooHoo!) where illegals ARE leaving. Employers already have to verify employment; they are just not getting pressure from the IRS to prevent them from hiring the illegals. Identity theft IS already a crime, we just have to enforce the law and deport those illegals with false documents. Look at the mess Bank of America is in regarding their policy for giving illegals bank accounts and loans.
These laws are not "expand[ing] the power of the Federal government over individuals, businesses and states rights". That would imply the targets are Americans. These laws target the illegal alien, and I want the federal government all over them.
7) Fences are not useless if built correctly. Listen to Duncan Hunter and Tom Tancredo. We are talking about a double fence with ditches on either side and roving patrols between fences. You are right that people will get through them. I just want that process to take longer than 5 seconds so our border agents can get to them. Look at the success where the new fences are being built.
9) Non-violent offenders want jobs; we can generally find them again. Violent criminals are harder to find, so once caught, keep them here.
10) ICE needs assistance from local and state law enforcement. Those departments assist FBI when tracking a kidnapper or US Marshall when tracking an escaped convict. Local and state governments are passing rules not allowing their police to assist ICE.
11) National Guard would not be enforcing any laws. They will be hunting down and destroying the MS-13 terrorist group, once we stop kidding ourselves that they are a gang. |
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Excellent points, Jman.
Joe, strong fences make good neighbors. It's common sense. Mexico and Canada have not been good neighbors by ENCOURAGING the illegal trespass -- yes, TRESPASS -- of our national borders. All the American people are asking is that the American government ENFORCE the existing laws. Why is that such a difficult concept for people who "CLAIM" they are conservative Republicans. The Democrats are the party that does not support the Rule of Law. Perhaps you have more in common with them? |
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"While fewer than half of Republicans say they are satisfied with their party's Presidential nominee, John McCain is competetive against either Democratic candidate in a general election
match up."
Oh what a surprise??? That is because McCain IS a Democrat!
By the way, like an earlier poster said I hang up on any kind of solicitor or poll phone call if they manage to get through at all. |
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we will forever be marginalized. We will have only two political parties remaining: The Left, and The Far Left.
If the left is going to win in 2008, it would be better if it is the far left. That will hopefully shock conservatives out of their complacency.
If McCain wins, many conservatives will be lulled into a false sense of security, while McCain delivers the final KO punch.
If Billorybama wins, conservatives will be so p*ssed off they will continue to fight against the Marxist tide that is sweeping over America.
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1) The problem is that most of the laws are unworkable. In order to enforce the laws, you would have to make the government bigger, more powerful and in your business. Anyone who has ever gone through an IRS audit or has tried to get a building on the market past a corrupt building inspector knows what an awful idea that will be. The problem is that a lot of innocent business owners hire illegals in good faith because they have documents that look legit, and it is two years before the government tells you there might be a problem.
Now, this could be resovled by creating a true national ID, but I don't think a lot of Americans are up for that kind of expansion of federal power.
2) No, fences are truly worthless. So it takes ten minutes to get past a double fence instead of five. Big whoop. Are you going to have a border agent on every quarter mile of fence 24/7? That's what it would take.
Oh, yeah, the new fences are having great success. The illegals have to go around them.
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The reason that the immigration laws worked for most of a century was because for most of our history, anyone who wanted to immigrate here could without a whole lot of hassle. That's how most of our "legal" ancestors got here. They just got on a boat and showed up at Ellis Island.
Now you have waiting periods, need to get sponsors, have all sorts of different types of Visa (most "illegals' dont' sneak in, they come in on Visas that later expire.) |
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"Excellent points, Jman.
Joe, strong fences make good neighbors. It's common sense. Mexico and Canada have not been good neighbors by ENCOURAGING the illegal trespass -- yes, TRESPASS -- of our national borders. All the American people are asking is that the American government ENFORCE the existing laws. Why is that such a difficult concept for people who "CLAIM" they are conservative Republicans. The Democrats are the party that does not support the Rule of Law. Perhaps you have more in common with them?"
Uh, when did the American people ask that? Most Americans support a path to citizenship for the people already here. Yes, they want the border secured first, and they want employers held accountable.
And point of order, Canada really isn't the problem. Why would any Canadian want to sneak in here? They have just as good a standard of living as we have, and their health care system isn't as FUBAR as ours is. |
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I just spent 3 years living in Montana where border control is as troublesome as Arizona. I spoke with MANY ranchers up near the VAST, unpopulated Can-Am border who reported their eyewitness accounts of illegal crossings. They described a CONSTANT flow of trucks and vans full of people. Our northern border is a frequent path for drug smuggling and illegal entrants. All it takes is a plane ticket to Canada. |
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This is from Unitethegop.com. An excellent excerpt why we need a McCain/Romney ticket. I've already e-mailed the GOP to tell them: No Mitt, no money. I'll be telling John McCain that in person when he's here in Salt Lake trying to get our hard earned money.
McCain and Romney have different areas of strength. McCain has the national security background that is essential at this time in our country and he understands the necessity of completing our tasks in Iraq and not surrendering to an enemy that has sworn an oath to destroy us. McCain has travelled Iraq extensively and understands this war from the ground up. He has invested more of himself in this effort to combat terrorism than any other Senator in Congress. Romney has unrivaled experience and savvy in the economic sector. Mitt could go to work on restructuring the government to run more efficiently and save our nation what is wasted per year... an estimated one trillion dollars! Mitt could work on several other budget/economic initiatives such as utilizing US energy resources & renewable energy and working within the healthcare insurance industry to create a solution for the working uninsured in America. There are much easier solutions than turning to socialized medicine.
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You simply CANNOT have national security if you will not defend your own borders or enforce your own laws. Foreign nationals numbering in the thousands are entering our country at will daily. John McCain has done and will do NOTHING to stop it. Don't believe me? Ask Juan Hernandez! |
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Joe, do you consider yourself a conservative? If so, I don't see how you can possibly lay hold to that title with ANY degree of credibility when you clearly believe:
(1) Illegal trespassers should be given a "path to citizenship" (a.k.a., amnesty) -- when a LAWFUL path to citizenship ALREADY exists (a.k.a., go home and get in line like everybody else).
(2) Certain classes of people are above the law and deserve special treatment (i.e., illegal trespassers).
(3) Canada's socialized health care system is better than America's capitalist health care system (per you statement above).
If you believe these, you clearly are NOT a conservative. Not only are these views un-conservative, they are destructive. America simply cannot AFFORD to allow illegal immigration -- it IS breaking the bank!
If you doubt that, go visit the birthing center at Desert Samaritan Hospital in Mesa, AZ. When my son was born there in 2002, they were delivering over 60,000 babies a year. When I delivered my son, there were about 50 mothers in the birthing center. According to our nurse, less than 10% of the mothers spoke English.
Now, guess why those mothers are there and WHO gets stuck with the bill. We're talking about a top-notch birthing center just 150 miles north of the border.
Now tell me who is FUBARing our health care system! Use your brain, for God's sake. |
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I get a little tired of trogladytes telling me who and who is not a conservative. My definition of conservativism does not mean "supporting things that aren't working because I am opposed to change."
How can anyone defend the current system, where 1 out of six Americans has no coverage and we spend more per-capita than any other country in the world? It's simply unacceptable, no matter what side of the political fence you sit on.
yes, the system is broken when you have people going to emergency rooms for standard care, provided at ten times the cost, passed on to the rest of us.
The immigration system is similarly broken, in the regards that there is a demand for unskilled labor, but not enough immigrants are being allowed in legally to fill those jobs. So you can go on and on about "lawbreakers" and "trespassers", but the fact is that you and I and everyone else has created the demand, and they are providing the supply.
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So, what do you see as appropriate solutions for these problems? Socialized health care? Government expansion? Amnesty for illegal trespassers? Continued unsecure borders?
I will concede we are, collectively, to blame for creating the demand. And I do not blame the illegals for wanting to come here. But we simply cannot afford it anymore. America is going broke.
AZ recently enacted a law that forces its businesses to obey immigration and employment laws or rick losing their business license. The effectively ended the illegal demand for illegal laborers. Now illegals are fleeing AZ en masse. Those who want to stay are pursuing legal paths. It will take a little time for the AZ market to adjust to the change, but it will adjust for the better. |
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Is it true that it costs $1.50 to produce $1 of ethanol? Anyone? |
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I think that we will eventually have a single payer health care system, because business and the medical community will demand it. The only ones opposed will be the insurance industry, because they are making huge profits off of the current broken system.
As far as the Arizona laws, many of those aliens are leaving because the economy is tanking, just as much for the new laws. |
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"The only ones opposed will be the insurance industry, because they are making huge profits off of the current broken system."
This has always been the elephant in the room no one wants to acknowledge. Our 'health care' system is not the problem. If the 'care' was so bad would people from other countries come here for it?
It is the 'cost' of health care. And what is the biggest affect on that? The insurance companies.
So instead of actually dealing with the insurance companies and mandating reforms in the the health care insurance industries it would be better to simply hand it all over to Washington? I have never understood that logic.(Other than the fact it is not in Washington's best interest to do. Why bite one of the hands that feed you?)
As for business and medical field demanding a single payer system, it is more likely that they are willing to accept a change, Any change from the current system. I am sure they would be behind restructuring of the whole insurance industry just as much.
The complaints are about 'costs' being too high. What costs? The money to the insurance companies obviously. Follow the money trail, no need to forge a new trail. (Especially one which could lead off a cliff.) |
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I don't think the insurance companies are the only problem. I think the health care corporations and the trial lawyers contribute.
I had two surguries last year, a laproscopic banding and a orthroscopic knee surgery. Combined with all the pre-operative testing that went along with them, cost well over what I make in a year. And these were minor surgeries.
Part of the problem is that the doctors ordered a lot of tests, to make sure they were covered in every possible way. The other was that because I have insurance, the hospital charged the maximum possible amount, knowing the insurance companies would knock it down.
The reality remains, however, that medical inflation goes up twice or three times what the real inflation numbers are, and as we get demographically older, we will see medical costs go from 1/7th of the economy to perhaps 1/4th of it.
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To all who agree with JMan, Virginia Patriot and others of this thinking, I am with you 1000%. As an example, I was talking to an elderly farmer who compared the damage the illegal aliens are doing to this country with the parasites that infect an animal: if the animal is infected with parasites, it becomes weaker and weaker and eventually dies if nothing is done. He thinks that the country will do the same if nothing is done to stop these parasites from ravaging our resources in this country.
I agree, but there are too many sheep around who will not do or say anything until they are hit square in the pocketbook with reality. In the meantime, the storm clouds are gathering and the natives are restless. |
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See, we agree on something. I agree the insurance companies are not the 'only' problem but they are however one of the biggest contributors that seems to be conveniently ignored.
The talk is all about not being able to 'afford' health care? Which of course means affording health care Insurance. So of instead of dealing with Why Insurance costs are so high ... the answer to may seems to be let the government provide it?? Where is the logic in that?
Perhaps some of the reasons costs are high may have to do with already existing government regulations? Again something else not even discussed.
So if this logic is we cant afford something then the government should pay for it? Ignoring the horrid track record the government already has then by using that logic that should be the solution to everything yes?
There is our answer to high gas prices then. The government should provide all Americans with 'free' gas .. why not food and clothes while we are at it? I think there is a term for all this..starts with a S I believe. |
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