Monday, June 16, 2008
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McCain Proposes La Raza Town Hall
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Posted by:
Amanda Carpenter at
1:41 PM
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GOP presidential candidate John McCain is inviting his Democratic rival, Barack Obama, to participate in a joint town hall at an open-borders advocacy group’s upcoming meeting in California. “There is a meeting in California of La Raza,” McCain told reporters at an Arlington press conference Monday. “Both of us have accepted invitations. I say that we have a town hall meeting together in front of La Raza. I think that the people will be far more informed and in some ways, entertained if we had that format.” More details in my story HERE. Off topic, but probably on a brighter note to our Townhall readers, McCain will make a formal push to lift oil moratoriums tomorrow. "I will call for lifting the federal moratorium for states that choose to permit exploration," he said. "I think that this, and perhaps providing additional incentives for states to permit exploration off of their coasts, would be very helpful in the short term in resolving our energy crisis." I'll post a full story after he does this tomorrow.
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To go into his typical rants about Atzlan, "criminals", Juan Hernandez and the Mexicans in his closet. |
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Two presidential aspirants groveling for votes from illegals in front of foreign race-based political advocacy group called "The Race" that preached that one-third of the US territory belongs to Mexico. Are they then going to hold another townhall in front of Aryan Nation skinheads? |
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JoeB131,
...and likewise, we're all waiting to hear your typical paranoid rants about Mormons, Joseph Smith, and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir which you fear is hiding in your closet.
Ha, ha, ha. |
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No, you see, I only comment on that when it's relevent to a thread... unlike Phil and VAPat, who seem to fill every thread with their nativist crap. |
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Do you ever have anything intelligent to say? Yeah I know, Mormons suck..blah blah blah blah... |
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Hey is McCain meeting with the Klan and Jeremiah Wright as well? |
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morons like Joe "bj", making statements like,"living in mortal fear that brown hispanic people might retake what is theirs"?
Then he has the arrogance to accuse patriotic American citizens of being "nativist, zenophobic racists, etc"!
Joey needs to move his *ss back to Mejico, with his brethren, where he belongs!
McScamnestys' pandering to "LaRaza" is the reason I'll NEVER vote for the slimy little POS! |
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JoeB131 wrote,
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"What I find funny about you is that you are a white guy living in a place with a spanish name living in mortal fear that brown hispanic people might retake what is theirs..."
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JoeB131,
So, you're saying you believe that the state of California actually belongs to "brown hispanic people" ?
Just out of curiosity, do "brown hispanic people" from, say, Guatemala or Honduras have a legitimate claim to California ?
It's not a trick question, and you will get 5 bonus points if you can answer it without one of your paranoid rants against people (pssst....M-o-r-m-o-n-s !) who have a different theology than you do.
Ha, ha, ha. |
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JoeB131,
So, you're saying you believe that the state of California actually belongs to "brown hispanic people" ?
Just out of curiosity, do "brown hispanic people" from, say, Guatemala or Honduras have a legitimate claim to California ?
ME: Actually, I think people arguing over who owns land is like a couple of fleas arguing over who owns the dog they are on. The land will be here long after we are all gone.
The thing is that California, Pasadena, Los Angeles, San Francisco, are all Spanish-named places... and people like you and Phil are afraid the Spanish speaking folks might want them back.
I'll go a step further. My ancestors and yours are not the original occupants of this continent. In terms of relation, the Mexicans, Hondurans, etc, are probably closer to the people who lived their originally than we are. |
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must be hidin under his rock again. LMAO!
What a "piece of work"!
Check this out:...Race baiting, self loathing, guilt ridden, multi-culti lovin, pc apologist, babblin fool!
Guess who that might be? |
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learn to communicate in English? Seriously, I think I counted a half dozen spelling errors in that last post... |
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JoeB131 wrote;
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"Actually, I think people arguing over who owns land is like a couple of fleas arguing over who owns the dog they are on. The land will be here long after we are all gone."
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JoeB131, in other words, you don't believe in the premise of private property, and you don't believe in the premise of a soverign state.
Unlike many closeted internationalists and Marxists, at least you have the honesty to publicly admit your beliefs.
JoeB131 also wrote;
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"The thing is that California, Pasadena, Los Angeles, San Francisco, are all Spanish-named places... and people like you and Phil are afraid the Spanish speaking folks might want them back."
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So, JoeB131, what you're asserting is that if a geographical place has a "Spanish name," it therefore belongs collectively to all "Spanish-speaking folks."----I swear, are you truly this idiotic ?
JoeB131 also wrote;
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"I'll go a step further. My ancestors and yours are not the original occupants of this continent. In terms of relation, the Mexicans, Hondurans, etc, are probably closer to the people who lived their originally than we are."
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JoeB131, how on earth do you "know" what my ancestry is ?
And what does someone's bloodlines have to do with private property or a sovereign state ?
"The Great Experiment" known as the United States is unique because we believe that a person can make their own destiny, rather than have their destiny shaped by the accident of their bloodlines.
Good heavens, even in England, the Monarchy is merely a figurehead now.
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Ya got th point though, did ya not?
Are you a school marm doing spell checks and grammer, now?
Your "oral flatulance" is exceeded only by your arrogance and ignorance!
I suspect that has something to do with your Germanic ancestory,....are you a "Zionist hater" too? |
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Exactly what is the difference between a Mexican and an "Indian". 60-70% of Mexicans are "Mestizos" having European and Amerindian blood, and 12-30% are pure Amerindian. ONly about 9-15% are purely "European" in ancestory.
Nice try at a misdirection, though. |
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"Actually, I do, unlike you, who seem to fill every post with your hatred of brown people."
I have several brown-skinned friends who are reading this right now and we are ROTFLOAO!!! |
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Joey's a history professor too! |
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It just occurred to me that you probably think that the typical Mexican-American is a guy in a sombrero with a burro. If "we" are going to return the Southwest to its "rightful owners", maybe we ought to return the rest of the country to ITS "rightful owners" too? How stupid are you anyway? |
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OHM: JoeB131, in other words, you don't believe in the premise of private property, and you don't believe in the premise of a soverign state.
Unlike many closeted internationalists and Marxists, at least you have the honesty to publicly admit your beliefs.
Me: You are talking about individual private property, not collective. Obviously, if a Hispanic family comes over and buys property,the law should recognize it as theirs.
You want to freeze current demographics in time. It never works that way. Demographics are always changing because humans by nature are migretory animals. It's not a question of exclusion, its a question of assimilation. Do we assimilate the newcomers, or keep them a resentful subculture?
OMH: So, JoeB131, what you're asserting is that if a geographical place has a "Spanish name," it therefore belongs collectively to all "Spanish-speaking folks."----I swear, are you truly this idiotic ?
Me: Wow, your reading skills are poor, aren't they. I just remarked on the humor of "Pasadena Felipe" wanting to protect his land from nasty hispanic people. The fact is they are coming. If you have one region with a population shortage and another with a surplus, you are going to have immigration. It's ebb and flow.
OHM: JoeB131, how on earth do you "know" what my ancestry is ?
Me: Oh,I don't know, maybe that you belong to a cult that didn't recognize dark skinned people as equals until 1978.
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OMH: And what does someone's bloodlines have to do with private property or a sovereign state ?
"The Great Experiment" known as the United States is unique because we believe that a person can make their own destiny, rather than have their destiny shaped by the accident of their bloodlines.Good heavens, even in England, the Monarchy is merely a figurehead now.
ME: So if someone comes over here to build a new life, as our ancestors did, they should have the right to make their own destiny. It seems like your attitude is "I got mine, screw you."
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It just occurred to me that you probably think that the typical Mexican-American is a guy in a sombrero with a burro. If "we" are going to return the Southwest to its "rightful owners", maybe we ought to return the rest of the country to ITS "rightful owners" too? How stupid are you anyway?
Me: Well, since I'm 1/8th Cherokee, I'm still awaiting for Worcester v. Georgia to be enforced...
Of course, I don't advocate returning to the 1836 borders, but the reality is that they are coming, and the question is, how do we deal with them.
We live in an era where nation states are becoming increasingly less important. It is cultures that are. So the question is, do we make them part of our culture, or do we keep them permanently underfoot and resentful? |
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"Actually, I do, unlike you, who seem to fill every post with your hatred of brown people."
I have several brown-skinned friends who are reading this right now and we are ROTFLOAO!!!
Me: Somehow, I doubt you have any friends... |
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I am not JoeB131. I am not in that cat fight.
I still would probably pay to watch Virginia Patriot having a front row seat at a McCain/Obama townhall event with La Raza present. |
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I get it,...th cat's out of th bag!
Joey bj thinks all illegals, Hispanic and otherwise have the rights to trump soverign American laws, and cross our borders with impunity,....and against the will of WTP be damned!
Typical NWO, neo commie, leftist mentality.
Your dog ain't gonna hunt, pal! |
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"Of course, I don't advocate returning to the 1836 borders, but the reality is that they are coming, and the question is, how do we deal with them."
Sure you don't. One way to deal with the problem is shoot a few people who cross the border illegally, starting with the drug dealers and human smugglers. That will get the word out real quick not to violate that border.
"We live in an era where nation states are becoming increasingly less important. It is cultures that are. So the question is, do we make them part of our culture, or do we keep them permanently underfoot and resentful?"
This sounds like something from the WSJ editorial page. This will only come to pass if people like you and the elites who control both worthless parties have their way.
I don't want them or their culture. Their problem about being a "permanently underfoot" can be solved easily by going back to where they came from.
As for them being "resentful" I couldn't care less. |
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Euros raping and pillaging is okay in Mexico, huh?
Nice try JoeB. You must be the result of said invasion huh? I still need you to leave and go back to Espana. Only pure Indians have the right to be in Mexico.
What a hypocrite.
Can we keep the part that Mexico seceded to us? |
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Doesn't it bother any of you Repubs that your man McCain is willing to bend over for The Race and give back part of our country carpet store and chicken factory by carpet store and chicken factory but chides Obama for talking with another supremist group leader, Ahmadinajahidi? |
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Ryan: Sure you don't. One way to deal with the problem is shoot a few people who cross the border illegally, starting with the drug dealers and human smugglers. That will get the word out real quick not to violate that border.
Me: Wow... shooting people. How "Nazi" of you.
Ryan: This sounds like something from the WSJ editorial page. This will only come to pass if people like you and the elites who control both worthless parties have their way.
I don't want them or their culture. Their problem about being a "permanently underfoot" can be solved easily by going back to where they came from.
As for them being "resentful" I couldn't care less.
me: Amusingly, every immigrant wave has been met by bigots like you saying how they were going to destroy the culture. The Irish, the Germans, the Italians, etc. You know what, they joined our culture just fine, and I can dine on Corned Beef, Bratwurst and Pizza without feeling that my culture identity is on the line. Adding Tacos to the menu won't change it much, either.
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Euros raping and pillaging is okay in Mexico, huh?
Nice try JoeB. You must be the result of said invasion huh? I still need you to leave and go back to Espana. Only pure Indians have the right to be in Mexico.
What a hypocrite.
Can we keep the part that Mexico seceded to us?
Me: No, you see, like I said, I'm a German-American who can live peacefully with his Chicano neighbors. Apparently, you can't, so I hope your teenage daughter dates one...
Pimpernel: Doesn't it bother any of you Repubs that your man McCain is willing to bend over for The Race and give back part of our country carpet store and chicken factory by carpet store and chicken factory but chides Obama for talking with another supremist group leader, Ahmadinajahidi?
Me: No, most sensible people are not scared by the La Raza/Atzlan bogeyman you guys try to set up. IN fact, quite the contrary, every GOP candidate who abandoned his common-sense approach to immigration- Guiliani, Thompson, Romney - and embraced the Tancrazy "ship 'em all back" mentality went down in flames.
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you're an arrogant moron. |
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"Me: Wow... shooting people. How "Nazi" of you."
You didn't waste anytime going nuclear with the nazi comment.
Sure, I like the idea of corn growing in the front yard, chickens running loose and all night parties. That is the rich culture that made Mexico such a great example to emulate. Maybe you like barrios, but I certainly don't.
How many illegals do you have working for you?
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"Me: Wow... shooting people. How "Nazi" of you."
Ryan: You didn't waste anytime going nuclear with the nazi comment.
Me: If the Jackboot fits...
Ryan: Sure, I like the idea of corn growing in the front yard, chickens running loose and all night parties. That is the rich culture that made Mexico such a great example to emulate. Maybe you like barrios, but I certainly don't.
How many illegals do you have working for you?
Me: I lived in a town (Cicero IL) where the population went from predominately Italian/Slavic to Predominately Mexican,and I never saw a chicken running loose, never saw anyone grow corn in the front yard. Saw a lot of people of all groups growing veggies in the back yard. That used to even be a sign of fortitude, back when they called them "Victory Gardens"...
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Many of you are getting aquainted with Mr. Goonie, JoeB. Fun, huh? Did you guys not know there's an 18 hole play-off at the U.S. Open? Much more entertainment value than JoeB.
Seriously, though, I'd also pay to watch VA Pat moderate that meeting woth McCain and La Raza.
So McCain is advocating a lift to the moratoriums on off-shore drilling? That's a start. How long is it going to take him to come around on ANWR? |
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I want a complete "expose'" about LaRaza. These people are as dubious as Islam. No one in my town even wants to discuss this group. I have read on the internet how radical they are. They will no longer be invisible. God Bless my country, America. |
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I'd like to see VA Pat moderate a meeting of La Raza. It'd be fun to watch them tar and feather his bigot keister.
Funny, I really expected to see him here by now..
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See you finally came up with an original insult...
Also see you're doing a great job of "ignoring" me.... |
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JoeB131,
The way you blather on in complete Marxist idiocy is hilarious.
By the way, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by telling people that I'm a Mormon---I am not a Mormon, and I think most of the regulars around here know that I am not a Mormon.
But I will defend Mormons from Christians such as yourself who screech like a little girl that there is a scary Mormon hiding underneath her bed !
Ha, ha, ha.
JoeB131 wrote;
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"Actually, I think people arguing over who owns land is like a couple of fleas arguing over who owns the dog they are on. The land will be here long after we are all gone."
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It's obvious you don't have regard for the premise of private property or for the premise of state sovereignty.
I don't know where you get this silly notion that "Spanish speaking people" have a collective right to a "Spanish named" geographical area---even when it owned by someone else.
What about Spanish speaking people in Cuba---do they all have a collective grievance to "take back" California ?
Please.
We already have enough angry Marxists clogging up the threads at Townhall.
Take your G.E.D. certificate down to the local employment agency, and find yourself some productive work.
If you do that, you might begin to appreciate the premise of a paycheck, and eventually you too can take pride in owning some land. |
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McCain is doing the sensible thing.
Most demographers have predicted that European-Americans will become less than 50% of the population by 2050. Therefore, the GOP can do one of two things.
Continue on its course of exclusion, nativism and xenophobia and find itself going the way of the Whigs and Federalists.
or
Realize that Hispanics share many of the same solid conservative values they do and unlock them as part of the party's future.
Seems to me McCain is doing the sensible thing for the future of his party. |
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"Realize that Hispanics share many of the same solid conservative values they do and unlock them as part of the party's future."
B.S., and you know it. |
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Believe me, I only pay any attention to you for the entertainment value. Like the bearded lady at a carnival or an orangutan at the zoo who picks his nose. When there's nothing else going on it's always kind of fun to see the freakshow at the carnival, but the carnival only comes around once a year or so.
I don't have a zoo close by so you're the cheap entertainment. Just like poking the orangutan through the bars at the zoo, we can come here and give you a little poke or two and sure enough, you never fail to start that nose picking.
You are Joranutan131 |
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OMH:By the way, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by telling people that I'm a Mormon---I am not a Mormon, and I think most of the regulars around here know that I am not a Mormon.
Me: If Mormons weren't hiding anything, they'd be happy to let us all into their temples and see what they are doing in there... oddly, they don't.
OHM: It's obvious you don't have regard for the premise of private property or for the premise of state sovereignty.
I don't know where you get this silly notion that "Spanish speaking people" have a collective right to a "Spanish named" geographical area---even when it owned by someone else.
What about Spanish speaking people in Cuba---do they all have a collective grievance to "take back" California ?
Me: So by that logic, if I break into your house and steal your TV tonight, you'll respect my "property rights". Please. We own the Southwest because of a war of aggression followed by wars of Genocide. It's nothing to be proud of.
OHM:Please.
We already have enough angry Marxists clogging up the threads at Townhall.
Take your G.E.D. certificate down to the local employment agency, and find yourself some productive work.
If you do that, you might begin to appreciate the premise of a paycheck, and eventually you too can take pride in owning some land.
Me: Actually, I have a Bachelor's degree, am gainfully employed (except work is dead in the water due to fine Republican managment) and I own several bits of property. I've voted Republican in every election since 1980, even though I am ashamed to see that my party has been taken over by bigots and apologists for greedy corporations. |
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Believe me, I only pay any attention to you for the entertainment value.
Me: Right, MC. Has nothing to do with the fact that I've blasted big holes in the rep of your pinup boy, Romney... Or that I kick your backside every time you actually try to engage in discussion. |
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"Realize that Hispanics share many of the same solid conservative values they do and unlock them as part of the party's future."
B.S., and you know it.
Me: Actually, they have strong families, want to build a better life, oppose abortion, go to church, work hard. When I served in the Army, a lot of my comrades in arms had Spanish surnames. This to me is the definition of what a Conservative is and should be.
And what branch of the military did you and MC serve in, as you cheer to send other people's kids to war? |
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"So if someone comes over here to build a new life, as our ancestors did, they should have the right to make their own destiny."
This is exactly the fundamental misunderstanding these people have regarding ILLEGAL immigration. I know of no one who is anti immigration. We need people to come here and help build and make this country stronger. It's the ILLeGAL part that gives us a problem.
I don't know about Jorangutan's ancestors, but mine came through the front door. The final words of the poem on the Statue of Liberty reads, "I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" We want people coming through that golden door, not sneaking through in the dark of night. |
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You can write all the crap you want. It still doesn't change the fact you wish to turn this county into the sort of cesspool Mexico is.
It doesn't matter which one of these clowns win. If the Bush-McKennedy bill or a clone of it is brought forth in the future it will suffer the same fate as the previous did.
I served in the Army and the people of Mexican descent I served with weren't the illiterate campesinos with their culture of corruption that you desire to replace them with.
As far as sending someone else's kid off to war I was against the Iraq invasion long before it occured, but why should you care about someone else's kids? Aren't you supporting McCain?
Here, I can play the "nazi" game with you too. You're a "La Raza Nazi" of the "Klan with a tan" as Terry Anderson refers to you jerks. |
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Maine Conservative,
I want a Berlin style Wall on the Border with 100,000 border guards at least. I don't think a fence is enough. We must control our borders this is out of control. What do you think of my idea? |
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JoeB131,
You can claim to be a gainfully employed property-owning Christian Republican with a college degree all day long, but nobody believes it.
You are championing Marxist ideas about private property and state sovereignty, and you are screeching the La Raza/DailyKos/CodePink talking points about "crimes" committed by America.
And your hatred of Mormons is just plain weird.
But you are entertaining.
This must have been what it was like to watch Britney Spears shave her hair off in real time. |
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is a "latrine orderly". hahaha LMAO!
Cubsfan, I like your idea,...it makes sense to me. |
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Hey, Joe, I'm part Creek Indian. GTF outta my country you knucklehead. At least the White Eyes PAID the Mexicans for the Southwestern UNITED STATES. |
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MC: This is exactly the fundamental misunderstanding these people have regarding ILLEGAL immigration. I know of no one who is anti immigration. We need people to come here and help build and make this country stronger. It's the ILLeGAL part that gives us a problem.
I don't know about Joe's ancestors, but mine came through the front door. The final words of the poem on the Statue of Liberty reads, "I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" We want people coming through that golden door, not sneaking through in the dark of night.
ME: Ah, yes, the old "My ancestors were legal and they aren't" argument. The fact is that when YOUR ancestors came over (and mine, too, for that matter) the immigration laws weren't nearly as restrictive as they are today. There was INS, no reqirement to get a sponsor, no long waiting periods. You got on a boat, and if you arrived safely, you were in line for citizenship. |
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You can write all the crap you want. It still doesn't change the fact you wish to turn this county into the sort of cesspool Mexico is.
As far as sending someone else's kid off to war I was against the Iraq invasion long before it occured, but why should you care about someone else's kids? Aren't you supporting McCain?
Here, I can play the "nazi" game with you too. You're a "La Raza Nazi" of the "Klan with a tan" as Terry Anderson refers to you jerks.
Me: Ah, I see. Those people are "dirty". Man, somewhere, Dr. Geobbels is proud. Next you'll be telling me they are poisoning the wells.
A note. I'm all for the war because we were the ones who were attacked, but not for the way its been fought, dragging on for 7 years and fattening Halliburton's bottom line. Personally, I think we should bring back a draft, and I wonder how much some of these saber-rattlers behind their computers would be if their kids were being inducted. |
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OHM: JoeB131,
You can claim to be a gainfully employed property-owning Christian Republican with a college degree all day long, but nobody believes it.
Me: Ah, yes, another person who speaks for "everyone"
OHM: You are championing Marxist ideas about private property and state sovereignty,
Me: Actually, I'm taking the position of George W. Bush, John McCain and Ronald Reagan on this one. They all believed in amnesty and giving people a chance. Oh, please explain to me again why YOUR guy isn't the nominee?
OHM: and you are screeching the La Raza/DailyKos/CodePink talking points about "crimes" committed by America.
me: As a wise man once said, you are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts. The War of 1847 was a war of aggression, where the United States violated its own treaties in an attempt to grab territory. It would not be tolerated today, an international coalition would move against such an aggressor.Amongst the people who spoke out against it at the time were Abraham Lincoln. And if you can't use the word Genocide to describe what happened to the native Americans, what term would you use?
OMH: And your hatred of Mormons is just plain weird.
Me: Actually, it's intellectually honest. One can only have two honest approaches. Either J Smith was really God's messenger, or he wasn't. There really isn't any other way around it. I refuse to believe that he was. If that makes me a "hater", so be it.
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JimP writes: Monday, June, 16, 2008 9:56 PM
JOEB131
Hey, Joe, I'm part Creek Indian. GTF outta my country you knucklehead. At least the White Eyes PAID the Mexicans for the Southwestern UNITED STATES.
me: I'm part Cherokee, I can say the same thing. And forcing a payment on a country after you have militarily seized their territory in violation of several treaties is hardly an equitable trade.
You do hit on the main problem with this issue. Whenever anyone talks about this issue, it always comes back to the Mexicans. Unlike every other immigrant group, which has to work its way into society to be accepted, they have as good a claim on the land as the people already there. I don't believe for a minute most Mexicans want to go back to the 1836 borders. I think I only met one who did, and that was in college.
The goal is not whether to keep them out (we can't, really), the question is, can we assimilate them. |
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Cubsfan writes: Monday, June, 16, 2008 6:04 PM
I want a Berlin style Wall on the Border with 100,000 border guards at least. I don't think a fence is enough. We must control our borders this is out of control. What do you think of my idea?
Me: So now we have conservatives wanting to emulate the Communists.
Would it be impolite to point out to this neanderthal that the Berlin Wall was ineffective at keeping people in. They got past it all the time.
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Apparently, Mexicans are the ones who don't like to live next to Mexicans... |
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JoeB lives in Mexico
Apparently, Mexicans are the ones who don't like to live next to Mexicans...
Me: And where did your ancestors come from? Why did their neighbors ask them to leave?
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apparently,
Here a quotes from Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant on the Mexican American War.
(Those would be the guys on the $5 and $50 bills, you Homeschoolers)
"That soil was not ours; and Congress did not annex or attempt to annex it."- A.Lincoln
"For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war, which resulted, as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory" - US Grant
"a war unnecessarily and unconstitutionally begun by the President of the United States." - A spot resolution sponsored by Abraham Lincoln
The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican war. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times." - US Grant
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I suspect you're reading comprehension may not be very good read this:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11125.html
Do you think the Dems are hearing us? (clue alert: that's why the GOP got trounced in November 2006 and seem determined to repeat these defeats on a grander scale this November). What if us former Republicans who don't believe in abandoning principles had obeyed you spineless nose holding quislings and pretended that all that counts is that any weasel Republican wins? We certainly wouldn't be getting this kind of interest in border enforcement. Now take your 1/8 Cherokee and 7/8 weasel pedigree and go back to Mexico! |
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Wow, so you don't understand the difference between pandering and real policy.
I'm happy that they are deporting criminal illegals. That's never been an issue (getting their home countries to take them might be, though).
The question still remains, what do we do with 12 million hard working decent people who are already here.
But, hey, if you think Obama is going to actually become a true believer in deportation, have at it man... |
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This seems pretty simple. Issue stiff penalties to those who hire illegals, prison time for repeat offenders. No benefits - schools, welfare, etc. for anyone who cannot prove they are here legally. Those 12 million hard working decent (albeit ILLEGAL) people who are already here will find their way back to where thay came from.
We don't need additional laws, only to enforce the ones we already have. |
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I don't entirely disagree with that, but numerous municipalities have stated that they fully intend to ignore such laws, will not help federal authorities enforce them.
And just wait until they actually try to prosecute the first small business owner for unknowingly hiring an illegal. There was a recent raid on a meat packing plant in Iowa, and the the way the media carried on, you'd think they were sticking the illegals into the sausage makers.
Self-deportation is a right wing fantasy. |
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Those 12 million (it was actually calculated to be over 20 million four years ago and has grown substantially since) "hard working" illegals can work just as hard in Mexico. There are more hard working LEGAL Mexican immigrants here who are being undermined in their struggle to make it in America because people like you believe that it is a good thing for poor law-abiding people should be forced to compete against even poorer people who cut in line illegally. And by the way, why do you choose to live in this country where more than 80% of its citizens disagree with you? As we have seen from your comments for a long time, anyone who disagrees you is automatically labeled a Nazi. You just aren't very bright. |
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Okay, Archie, let's say I am a small businessman, and I've just hired Pablo. Pablo had a social security card and a driver's license and seemed like a nice enough fellow. I submit his paperwork to the IRS and everything seems fine.
Then two years later*, I get a message from the IRS that Pablo isn't who he says he is, and I'm now going to be prosecuted under your law. Oh, yeah, and I have to fire Pablo on the spot. Except he stopped working for me a year ago, so I can't get his side of the story.
This is your plan, really?
*at current backlog rates, it takes the IRS about two years to inform an employer of a problem on an I-9 form.
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Pasadena Phil writes: Those 12 million (it was actually calculated to be over 20 million four years ago and has grown substantially since) "hard working" illegals can work just as hard in Mexico. There are more hard working LEGAL Mexican immigrants here who are being undermined in their struggle to make it in America because people like you believe that it is a good thing for poor law-abiding people should be forced to compete against even poorer people who cut in line illegally. And by the way, why do you choose to live in this country where more than 80% of its citizens disagree with you? As we have seen from your comments for a long time, anyone who disagrees you is automatically labeled a Nazi. You just aren't very bright.
Me: Acutally, I just call Nazis Nazis. The majority doesn't disagree with me at all. In fact, THIS poll
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-18-illegal- immigrants_N.htm
A USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken last weekend found that 78% of respondents feel people now in the country illegally should be given a chance at citizenship
And of course, since BOTH parties have nominated the candidate who favors this, that should be obvious that the majority actually agrees with me.
Not to worry, I'm sure 80% of your Bund disagrees with me.
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If the "Deport them all" crowd we see crowing so loudly here is so important, why didn't your guy win the GOP nomination? Just asking. |
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Who is my candidate? I didn't know I had one. |
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If I were in charge of the policy, here's what I would do.
1) Secure the border with a large enough border patrol to seal it.
2) Require all illegals to register with the government. No action will be taken against them for one year, but they have to declare.
3) Institute a failsafe form of employee/benificiary ID on a national level. Declared illegals will get one that identifies them as provisional immigrants.
4) All provisionals will be required to pay a $10,000 fine and to wait 10 years before becoming citizens. They will not be eligible for welfare or unemployment, but will be allowed medical care and education.
5) Set up a system for evaluating their suitability for citizenship, which would include English proficiency, a solid work record, no criminal activity in their home country or this one.
6) Anyone not complying with the above will be deported. |
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Pasadena Phil writes: Tuesday, June, 17, 2008 11:49 AM
JoseB 1/8
Who is my candidate? I didn't know I had one.
Me: Well, that's telling. Your position is so repulsive to decent, Christian people that no candidate even wanted to be associated with it.
Actually, several of the GOP candidates try to pander to your ilk. They were all soundly defeated. |
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I also think those here illegally should be given a chance at citizenship. Does that mean I aghree with you, Jorangutan? ... Not so much.
That path to citizenship is to go home, get in line with everyone else and come through the front door legally.
Phil is exactly right. Those here illegally, competing for the jobs that legal citizens want and need is unfair to the legals and also to the illegals who are basically working for slave wages.
Right wing fantasy? Why is insisting that we enforce the law a fantasy? Actually, don't answer that, just go back to picking your nose while the rest of us look on. You're not as good as the bearded lady at the carnival but you are available...and cheap entertainment.
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MC: I also think those here illegally should be given a chance at citizenship. Does that mean I aghree with you, Joe? ... Not so much.
That path to citizenship is to go home, get in line with everyone else and come through the front door legally.
Me: Completely impractical.
Archie: Phil is exactly right. Those here illegally, competing for the jobs that legal citizens want and need is unfair to the legals and also to the illegals who are basically working for slave wages.
Me: Hold on a minute, are you trying to say they are criminals or victims, here? Seems you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Archie:Right wing fantasy? Why is insisting that we enforce the law a fantasy?
Me: Because the law is unworkable, everyone knows it. As you say, a lot of us knowingly look the other way. We have six Mexicans working here, they're probably illegal, but no one is reporting them. Why? Because they do the work that even legals don't want to do.
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The problem with "self-Deportation" is that no matter how bad you make things for illegal immigrants, the places they came from are still worse.
As long as they can get fake documents, there are employers who will hire them unknowingly, or perhaps knowingly.
Drugs have been illegal for as long as I've been alive. You can still get them relatively easily.
Guns have been illegal in Chicago since 1984, which is a great comfort to the hundreds of people shot here every year.
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Again, goofball, like the orangutan that you are, you missed the point. My point was that if you ask a question in a poll if you want a path to citizenship for illegal aliens, many people would say yes, as I did. That doesn't necessarily mean that 78% of Americans want them to stay here.
It is not impactical or impossible.
Criminals can't also be victimized? Absolutely they are being victimized by those employers who pay them less than a living wage. Sorry to overload your feeble mind.
Jorangutan: "Because the law is unworkable, everyone knows it. As you say, a lot of us knowingly look the other way. We have six Mexicans working here, they're probably illegal, but no one is reporting them. Why? Because they do the work that even legals don't want to do."
Now you are speaking for everyone? Why would you rock the boat with your job, which only apparently allows you to blog all day, every day? Does your employer give the six Mexicans more to do than he gives to you?
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MAB: My point was that if you ask a question in a poll if you want a path to citizenship for illegal aliens, many people would say yes, as I did. That doesn't necessarily mean that 78% of Americans want them to stay here.
Me: That isn't the question you asked, and you know it. The fact is that most Americans aren't as hateful and angry as you are. They see no problem giving citizenship to people who are otherwise not bothering anyone...
MAB: Criminals can't also be victimized? Absolutely they are being victimized by those employers who pay them less than a living wage. Sorry to overload your feeble mind.
Me: I'm trying to understand your thinking here. By your mind, Mitt Magic Underpants looting AmPad and putting 350 working families out of work is okay, but apparently, someone making a profit by hiring undocumented workers is bad? I wonder how you get to this sliding scale of morality. Your "outrage" about exploitation seems to be, well, flexible.
MAB:Now you are speaking for everyone? Why would you rock the boat with your job, which only apparently allows you to blog all day, every day? Does your employer give the six Mexicans more to do than he gives to you?
Me: You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with my life. (As I said, I'd LOVE to be busier, but we have Republicans managing the economy, so I'm happy to be working at all.) I don't report them because I don't care, and neither does anyone else. We don't want to do the work they do. (They don't actually work for us, they work for a labor company.) The fact is that there are always low end jobs Americans feel beneath their dignity, and there will always be immigrants to fill them. The stupidty come in when people think they can regulate that away.
Again, your "economic conservatives" have done everything you can to ban unions, undermine OSHA and EEOC, and now you are upset that some employers are taking the next step?
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You have achieved the impossible! You disagreed with JoseB 1/8 without being called a Nazi! Quite an accomplishment. |
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You have achieved the impossible! You disagreed with JoseB 1/8 without being called a Nazi! Quite an accomplishment.
Me: Well, to give MC Credit, he hasn't said anything openly racist, unlike other people...
..like you.
You know, like calling someone "Jose" when he supports the policy of Reagan, Bush and McCain, our party leaders. |
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JoeB131 wrote;
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"Actually, I think people arguing over who owns land is like a couple of fleas arguing over who owns the dog they are on. The land will be here long after we are all gone."
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Yeah, old man, we have a name for the sentiment which you expressed----it's called...Marxism !
:)
You Obama supporters in Chicago really get angry that some people have more money and more land than others, eh ?
But if land ownership really gets under your skin, y-o-u should be the one to rise up against land ownership and offer to bequeath your own property to "Spanish speaking people" or the Indians whom you believe have been wronged.
By putting your money where your mouth is, you could be the new poster child for Code Pink, DailyKos, & MoveOn.org.
Be part of the solution, rather than continue to be part of the problem.
And as far as your paranoid obsessions with people (Mormons !) who don't share your religious beliefs, it's just weird, man.
People from all over the country visit Utah on skiing vacations, and nothing 'bad' happens to them.
The Ghost of Joseph Smith doesn't steal their "Christianity" in the middle of the nite, as you're fearful of.
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Wow, you seem to really be focused on the Dog comment... I wonder why that bothers you so much... (Incidently, I stole that from the movie "Crocadile Dundee", not Karl Marx.)
Even though I pretty clearly distinguished between private property and collective property, you still seem to be focused on the fact that Hispanic people owned the west once, and will probably own it again. If this bothers you, that's really kind of your problem, I'll be dead by then.
I've explained my position on LDS, it is obvious you lack the reading comprehension skills to understand, but then again, they'll give any moron a blog, it seems... |
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OMH and Maineconservative might even debate what I am saying, instead of their weird fantasies about what I say... |
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JoeB131 wrote;
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"Actually, I think people arguing over who owns land is like a couple of fleas arguing over who owns the dog they are on. The land will be here long after we are all gone."
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Old man, that's plain Marxism.
Haven't you studied political theories ?
By the way, why have you been pretending you're a McCain supporter, when you actually support Barack Obama ?
That's just plain weird, brother.
And are you also lying about being a caucasian of German ancestry ?
You Obama supporters in Chicago really get angry that some people have more money and more land than others, eh ?
But if land ownership really gets under your skin, y-o-u should be the one to rise up against land ownership and offer to bequeath your own property to "Spanish speaking people" or the Indians whom you believe have been wronged.
By putting your money where your mouth is, you could be the new poster child for Code Pink, DailyKos, & MoveOn.org.
Be part of the solution, rather than continue to be part of the problem.
Why do you refuse to put y-o-u-r property where y-o-u-r mouth is, tough dude ?
:)
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Actually, it doesn't bother me at all. I sold property in a town I used to live in to Hispanics and the world did not come to an end...
You seem to be the one who is terrified a mexican might move in next door to you.
I should also point out that MY position on this issue is in sync with Senator McCain (and President Bush and President Reagan). We are realists who know that we have to provide a path to citizenship for the undocumented workers already here. If anyone is off the reservation, you are. You guys had the chance to make nativism and xenophobia the platform of this party, and you lost. Deal with it.
Incidently, I hold a Bachelors in history from the University of Illinois with a minor in Political Science... What do you have?
Seriously, why does the Dog comment have you so upset? |
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When discussing with suicide republicans like OMH, I truly wonder if the Whigs had people like him in the days before the Civil War, or the Federalists at the New Hartford Convention. People who failed to realize the world was changing, and if they failed to change with it, they become extinct...
The GOP is truly at a crossroads. The old Reagan coalition of security, economic and religious conservatives are falling apart. The only question is, who picks up the pieces. |
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We want the Stupid Party to go down. |
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Seriously.
The GOP is probably going to lose this time out. Bad economy, unpopular war, a candidate who is openly distancing himself from his president. That's fine. Our politics are cyclical. We learn from our mistakes and we come back with better policies.
What I see being a problem is that a loud nativist faction loudly advocates a policy that leaves a large portion of the population offended. Oh, you can wrap it up in "I'm just against illegal immigration", but it's pure nativism, that pops up in our culture every few decades.
What you are doing is telling 15% of the population that we see them as unworthy citizens, and I don't think that's going to play over time. |
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Why don't all of your anti-Immigration types form a third party, or hijack a party with ballot access like the Reform Party (are they even still around?) Then we'll see how much of the electorate you actually represent. |
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We are not anti-immigrant at all. We welcome (a few) legal immigrants on a yearly basis. What you apparently refuse to recognize is that we are at the point where we are requiring Mexicans (and, yes, they are the only group) to speak and learn English and the American Way. This is bad for the country. I don't want to live in Mexico, they don't want to live in Mexico, and you don't want to live in Mexico. They can come here legally and adapt to us. That is the American Way.
You also apparently favor low wages and breaking the tax laws for Mexicans. In England up until right after the First World War, an average family could just basically get free labor from any street person by trading them lodging and food. In other words trap them into working for them for nothing. That is what is happening now. At the same time, wages for Americans are going down because of this greed. Teens who actually want to work cannot. This leads to pregnancy and crime (figure it out). It also leads to more Dem/lib voters.
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And a dangerous part of illegals crossing the south border free of charge is criminals and terrorists. Right now, in Mexico, Al Quaeda is training in camps. They pay the drug lords and the corrupt Mexican local govt (redundant, I know) officials to look the other way. These terrorists learn a few words and cross the border.
And this is not even mentioning the Central and South Americans who come here via the border. Just last week, here in Atl, a Guatemalan killed an officer's wife. Thanks JoeB and JohnnyMac! |
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"point where we are requiring Mexicans" should read "point where we are NOT requiring Mexicans"
If you're from Texas I believe it is pronounced "Messicans"... |
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SP: We are not anti-immigrant at all. We welcome (a few) legal immigrants on a yearly basis. What you apparently refuse to recognize is that we are at the point where we are requiring Mexicans (and, yes, they are the only group) to speak and learn English and the American Way. This is bad for the country. I don't want to live in Mexico, they don't want to live in Mexico, and you don't want to live in Mexico. They can come here legally and adapt to us. That is the American Way.
Me: Then we should have enforced the border and the workplace 22 years ago with the first amnesty. We didn't, largely because businesses were against it. NOW we have a problem we should have corrected 22 years ago. The real problem with legal immigration is that it doesn't allow for unskilled labor to be imported when needed.
SP: You also apparently favor low wages and breaking the tax laws for Mexicans. In England up until right after the First World War, an average family could just basically get free labor from any street person by trading them lodging and food. In other words trap them into working for them for nothing. That is what is happening now. At the same time, wages for Americans are going down because of this greed. Teens who actually want to work cannot. This leads to pregnancy and crime (figure it out). It also leads to more Dem/lib voters.
Me: Wages for Americans are going down because ecnomic conservatives have been successful in destroying unions, emasculating agencies like OSHA and EEOC, keeping the Minimum Wage down until it means practically nothing. Illegals are just a convienient scapegoat in this regard.
And please, teens who don't work don't want to work... When was the last time you saw a pre-teen come and offer to mow your lawn or rake your leaves, like we did when we were kids. (Okay, I'm probably giving away my age here.)
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SP: And a dangerous part of illegals crossing the south border free of charge is criminals and terrorists. Right now, in Mexico, Al Quaeda is training in camps. They pay the drug lords and the corrupt Mexican local govt (redundant, I know) officials to look the other way. These terrorists learn a few words and cross the border.
And this is not even mentioning the Central and South Americans who come here via the border. Just last week, here in Atl, a Guatemalan killed an officer's wife. Thanks JoeB and JohnnyMac!
Me: Okay, we've been hearing about this imminent cross-border Al Qaeda attack for years now, and it hasn't happened yet. I mean, geez, if Al Qaeda was going to attack us that way, they'd have done it by now.
As far as criminals, I have no problem tracking down and arresting criminals. I am only talking about the 99% who work hard and keep out of trouble... |
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"point where we are requiring Mexicans" should read "point where we are NOT requiring Mexicans"
If you're from Texas I believe it is pronounced "Messicans"...
Me: I understood what you meant. But doesn't their illegality contribute to the problem? If they live in constant fear of "la Migra", they are more inclined to not assimilate, not learn any more English than they have to to function, etc. |
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Although Spanish has become the defacto second language, it's not just for the Mexicans.
It's widely used by Puerto Ricans (more of whom live in CONUS than PR), and they are citizens by virtue of the fact their island is a commonwealth.
It's also used by Cubans, who were openly encouraged to emigrate here for decades so we could stick a finger in Castro's eye.
I was recently in Canada, where bi-lingual signs and labels are required. They seem to be functioning just fine. |
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Jeez Man! We have plenty of Dem/libs ie Unskilled labor already. We actually need skilled professionals now. I agree that Labor and Corps want cheap labor. Maybe if we lower taxes and regulations and licensing etc on biz that would help.
I'm not kidding about teens. I work in a library and they come in with their parents a lot and we talk a lot about how hard it is for kids to get work. You know darn well that every fast food joint is manned by immigrants. I find it hard to believe that they are all legal AND all here in GA. I'm like, "Where did they all come from?" I have to use sign language at WalMart to get some answers. That irritates me.
As for the phantom attack we both know we didn't believe it when we saw the 2 planes run into the middle of NYC either. All it takes is one attack and that is too many. I just don't want to ignore it anymore.
I'm all for invading Mexico. We go down there, buy up the land, form govt and turn it into the real Southern United States of America. The corrupt officials can just move to our major cities which are run by Dem/libs and fit right in. New Orleans, Chicago, Detroit, DC... |
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The Cubans and Puerto Ricans have been here a while and have adapted in NYC and Miami. I believe they get here legally too. |
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On teens, Every fast food place I go to these days has old people behind the counter.
Yes, I get irritated when someone in customer service can't speak English. That's just bad hiring practice. (See, we agree)
I used to be with a National Guard unit in a predominately PR neighborhood in Chicago. These people weren't learning english, weren't assimilating (Puerto Rican Independence Day was always an interesting week) and they have a Congressman named Luis Guiteriz who boasts of his links to the FALN terror group. (Guy actually protested in front of our armory during GW1).
On the Cubans, they do the exact same thing the Mexican do, except they are encouraged to do it by our government (or were for decades) because we wanted to stick it to Castro. Except Castro put one over on us by emptying his prisons and mental hospitals. |
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