Tuesday, April 07, 2009
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Saving The F-22
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Posted by:
Hugh Hewitt at
9:54 AM
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The big news out of Secretary Gates' proposed DoD budget was the announcement that F-22 production was going to be shut down. (The Washington Post story is here , the New York Times here, and the Wall Street Journal story here.)
As recently as December, the Times ran a story reporting that the Air Force wanted 60 more F-22s, and though the cost of the additional planes was estimated at $9 billion, in the era of trillion dollar deficits, that seems hardly the sort of expenditure that would cause a blink of an eye, especially given the number of jobs that will be lost if the plane's production lines are shuttered.
Against the backdrop of wild spending and massive deficits, the Pentagon cuts are startling. The first mission of the federal government is the nation's defense, and the president's budget spends billions on unnecessary and wasted spending while taking the knife to the country's weapons' systems.
President Obama's visit to Iraq is a welcome symbol of his commitment to preserving the hard-won peace there, but the military he is meeting with needs the weapons of the next generation to remain capable of winning on the battlefields where it fights. Americans are right to worry that a hollowing-out of the military has begun.
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is really on a drool, ain't he. Kind of cute. And, shrill, spiced by desperate. But, yeah, Lizard, ya got me on the ropes...Just don't have your girlish way with me, Okay? Thanks. Oh, and Lincoln seved a summer of drilling for the militia--period. And, FDR didn't get crippled by polio until the 1920's, well after he was of age to join. But, there I go again...Outing Lefties who have never studied ANY history past a few crams of Cliff Notes is way too easy.
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Paddy, ColBat, Marine Devil...I'm sooooo ashamed to fiercely support the War Against Radical Islam, as you do. I've only recently realized that I'm unqualified. Bad me. My Mom was a Chickenhawk, too. But, at the time she died, the Left hadn't come up with the Batsh!t Lunatic "reasoning" yet. I know, as I was one of them. Never-ever would have occurred to us! |
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We're fairly close to being able to produce a cheap surface-to-air missile that can locate and lock on to any airplane, regardless of speed or stealthing, out-maneuver it, and deliver a significant explosive charge. Cheap high-capability electronics, high function AI, modern materials for construction and propulsion, etc will make it possible to manufacture a Smart SAM in any machine shop for a few thousand dollars and use it to take out a $500 million Raptor. The era of the manned warplane is drawing to a close.
Note that the Smart SAM will also be able to hit Air Force One and any commercial jet. The future arrives sooner than you expect, and in the wrong order. |
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As a veteran, I pronounce you reformed....
Anyway, if you're not allowed to support the war effort unless you've been in uniform for four years, then I guess you're not allowed to support the fudgepacker movement unless you've been reamed a few hundred times.
I guess we'll have to listen to the lizard on that one issue, anyway.... |
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different thread. Tired, illogical, vacuous, absent critical thought and oh-so-needy, Sally. You're inferring, Fool, that you are...errrr... Courageous, Brave, Stand-Up...? Ummm, again Fool, what trenches did FDR populate....Lincoln...???? Dang those 2-Chickenhawks, anyway.
Yep, I buy that from a basement dwelling hot air . BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...! |
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Guys! What'chu two knuckle draggin' pro-deterrent fascists doing there...Ya know, cluttering up Fwankie's pad, huh? Bad. BAAAAD!
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The Bamster confirmed to our warriors in Iraq today that it's time to retreat from our large victory there. He lectured the Iraqi gov't(from a distance) that it's past due to secure their own digs. Yep, bwaaaave. The Victory we've had in the former Human Butcher Shop of Iraq is an embarrassement to The Bam. Won't mention its success and significance, not the liberty Iraqis enjoy. He wants it to sink back to its cesspool of mass death pits so he can claim he was right. Not just a FOOL, but, I'm afraid, a Criminal Fool. There, I've said it.
Within living memory of the 1930's vacation from History--followed by a wake up call of 10's of millions of graves. Within a rock's throw of 9-11, our CLUELESS Fuehrer is daily declaring us to be in a 9-10 world + a far vaster Nanny State to assure our dependence.
**It is logically impossible to quantify Fwank's vacuum of intelligence...His utter absence of critical thought, grasp of even elementary history or any demonstable evidence that he's an improvement upon a rat. BUT, Guys, look who Fwanky, Sally, Munky Boy & Rally see as bwilliant: The Bammo. 'Nuff said.** |
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You want to send our guys out to defend our country in beetles....?! :-)
I guess that's fine....if the other guys are in Yugos.....
Just remember....the Mustang was a war winner, but only because the German ME 262 jet fighter came on line too late to make a difference.
I don't want our boys flying around one day and discovering that the Chinese or the Russians have evolved to the point of air superiority...
Iranians know how to fly too, you know.... It's better to get one step ahead when we can....not when we need to.....
Neal is right....the F-35 is a fine plane, and it's way up there on the "cool" factor. But is it enough....? |
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so a 3.8% increase in defense spending, when we are fighting the war on terror, the war in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan, when total spending is doubling this year is a proportionate increase? That is barely the rate of inflation.
Why are we buying more refueling aircraft if we are not increasing our fleet of aircraft? Makes sense to me.
More money for more people but no investments in future technology sounds like the Ford, Chrysler, GM business model of the 1970's...
I will sleep better tonight know smarter people are spending our defense money......NOT !!!!!!
One final thought, Our superior military is what has kept us safe as a nation since 1776. Did you not read the story of the tortoise and the hare? (turtle and rabbit for you public school folks) Just because you have a big lead in any endeavor doesnt mean you lay down and let your competition catch up with you... and if you think Russia wouldnt be a different country if they had the upperhand on us? You think China would be? |
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Good comments about the countries i mentioned. Doesnt seem like there is a near term threat to worry about. I was just looking into some more of SecDef Gates budget proposals and discovered he wants to ramp up F-35 production. While not as capable as the F-22, it should get the job done. And we do need to save money somewhere. Its just kinda odd that the only place the budget is not growing is in defense.
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"One of the reasons we have no threat is our military superiority (deterrence again)."
Yeah, so now seems like a pretty good time to dial it down a few notches and start thinking rationally rather than fearfully. Probability wise, no one can match us and no one is reasonably likely to try without us noticing and having ample time to ramp our own spending back up to match.
As we spend more than the world combined on ‘Defense’ spending, I think we can actually cut (not just reduce the rate of increase) the budget without having the Red Hordes invade the next day.
“Why would we make a new version of an old plane rather than keep up with the techonology?”
If it’s more suited for what your needs are, then yes.
“Would you do that in your business? Of course not....in these times, you'd be a dinosaur in five minutes.”
The VM Beetle comes immediately to mind. |
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you know neal your "guessing" on money printing devaluation is sure fun but I'll stick with Gates and the facts.
Good luck with all that.
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"I see no reason to continue this waste of time...."
Good. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out of my house!
Enjoy your lunch of sanctimony and hypocrisy. |
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Frank, check out these numbers before you make a bigger idiot out of yourself.
Obama's budget request for fiscal 2010 seeks 130 billion dollars for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, down from 141.4 billion for operations in the current fiscal year.
533.7 billion dollars for the main defense budget, a four percent increase over the main budget for fiscal 2009, 511 billion.
So 130b+533=663B for 2010
511b+141=652B for 2009
annual CPI increase from 2009 to 2010 5%, this is a guess, but i would think a very conservative one bassed on all the money we are printing.
652B spent in 2009 is equivilant to 684B in 2010. So the pentagon will have less purchasing power in 2010 then 2009. that my friends is a budget decrease. |
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It is obvious that you are not intelligent enough to carry on a debate....
The most recent "attack the poster" comments have pretty much solidified your Townhall position as resident dufous.
If I want to listen to such unreasoned blather, I'll get married again....
I see no reason to continue this waste of time.... |
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Here are a few examples of the budget increases that will directly affect the troops in Afghanistan:
– An increase in “intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) support for the warfighter in the base budget by some $2 billion.”
– An additional “$500 million more in the base budget than last year to increase our capacity to field and sustain more helicopters – a capability that is in urgent demand in Afghanistan.”
– “To grow our special operations capabilities, we will increase personnel by more than 2,800 or five percent and will buy more special forces-optimized lift, mobility, and refueling aircraft.”
As Max Bergmann points out at Democracy Arsenal, “this budget represents a clear move toward a more balanced strategy and is a dramatic departure from the strategy of ‘transformation’ that the Bush administration blindly pushed under the leadership of Secretary Rumsfeld.” Additionally, the Gates budget never actually “cuts funding for our troops.” As Bergmann notes, “base spending on defense this year rose by more than $20 billion.”
Did y'all get that-defense spending up by 20 billion and they don't say anything about needing the F-22 to win the war in Afghanistan.
We are fighting a war remember? so lets stop worring about the next one and focus on winning the one we're in right now.
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I suggest you actually look at it before you make an even bigger idiot out of yourself.
Of course you wouldn't want the money spent independently-why alert the public to the growing war cost?
You people are never satified. And If I were Obama I'd certainly stop trying.
Maybe he should cut the budget if this is the thanks he gets.
then we could back to the orignal argument which is the one you and Rush Limbaugh(Rush has been saying Obama will carve up the military so of course the villagers think that) would prefer to have. |
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sure paddy, revert to a Carter comparison.
ZZZZZZZ...
Ever notice how with consevatives its always Carters was bad and Reagan was awesome?
Try living in 2009 and stop reliving your parties old glories. there's a difference from learning from history and relying on it as comfort food when you come up short.
Please, maybe you should start writing some history, if that's where you want to base your arguments. I think the rest of us plan to be a bit more forward thinking.
Try it sometime. |
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there will be no more war supplementals. So this years budget has to cover the cost of the two wars. That my friends is a budget decrease |
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We have seen all this before...under Carter. It was an awful situation.
Just because you don't learn from history doesn't mean the rest of us don't. |
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"And frank, dont be so naive you old fool, you know as well as i do that you just cant saw for certain who we will fight in the future. Certainly i can think of a handful of countries with modern hardware and trained pilots we may face in the future."
It took you less than two sentances to contradict yourself. Please don't you know what the war plans division of the pentagon does?
Get real son.
Besides Obama is growing the size of ground forces in the Army and Marines. If you people actually took the time to look at the military budget you would know...
" In other words, by retooling the Pentagon, Obama and Gates plan to move a lot of money around, but they also plan to increase the overall defense budget. In the final year of the Bush administration (and excluding the costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan) the defense budget was $513 billion. In FY 2010, if Gates and Obama get their way, it will be $534 billion--$534 billion that will be spent much differently than last year's outlays were."
that my friends is a budget increase.
So stow all that crap about loking weak-the military is getting even more money now than they got under Bush-Obama plans to spend it more WISELY.
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..is our military superiority (deterrence again).
Whey would we make a new version of an old plane rather than keep up with the techonology? Would you do that in your business? Of course not....in these times, you'd be a dinosaur in five minutes.
The F-22 can do ground attack, pursuit, and provide fighter cover; it can be adapted for carrier use too, although that was canned by the Clinton Administration.
If you can have all that and stealth too, why would you want a fresh production of an outmoded plane...? Defense is priority one for a (reasonable) potus. |
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How about Russia, China, N Korea or Iran. Maybe even Hugo Chavez, maybe Syria. Ok fine, only the first two have serious hardware, but they do export.
Russia: we outlasted them before, aside from which they are nuclear armed, so if we actually get into a shooting war with them, it doesn't really matter how many stealth fighters we have. Just how many underground bunkers filled with sustainable resources.
China: Not even close to our league in defense spending. They are also our greatest trading partner and float too much of our debt to careless get into a shooting war with us.
Iran: A shaky government, a weak economy, and a lack of conventional arms in comparison to us. Their greatest strength lies in the irregular groups they fund and aid, which would result in more of an unconventional war in which stuff like the F-22 wouldn't be as useful. The only way they become a credible threat is if they develop a nuclear bomb (which is under debate as to whether or not they're actually trying to do this) and somehow manage to buy or develop ICBMs. In which case they still have to test both and stealth fighters will still be less useful than stealth bombers.
Venezuela: Really? You really think this guy is any more of a threat than Castro was? We could annihilate the country five times over with conventional weapons.
Syria: Probably tougher than Iran, but also just as unlikely to settle for a direct engagement with the United States in the event that there were hostilities.
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build new ones. Or push for an updated ground support plane that focuses more on reliability and durability. Something that would better integrate AF units into the mission of the Army and Marines.
I'm not anti-tech, but pushing for an air superiority stealth fighter when we have no current credible conventional threat, and no one is even in the ballpark, is ridiculous. |
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"Can one of you chickenhawks name ONE thing that would have been altered in Iraq or Afghanistan if the Pentagon had as many Raptors as they wanted? One thing. Please. I'm waiting. "
You just dont buy stuff for the current conflict. You buy what you think you need to win againts a reasonably likely threat. The next conflict may get need us to battle for air dominance, in which case the F-22 is a good thing.
And frank, dont be so naive you old fool, you know as well as i do that you just cant saw for certain who we will fight in the future. Certainly i can think of a handful of countries with modern hardware and trained pilots we may face in the future. How about Russia, China, N Korea or Iran. Maybe even Hugo Chavez, maybe Syria. Ok fine, only the first two have serious hardware, but they do export.
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Fine...by that logic...let's just bring back the Mustang.....
A-10's are ancient. We don't need our pilots flying planes that are falling apart....we need to put them in a position to succeed.
A ruined economy and weakened military are not the signals I want to be sending to potential adversaries just now..... |
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So would a far cheaper plane. H3ll, the A-10 would do it better and would be more of a support craft for the grunts, which presumably is the primary mission the AF has in Iraq and Afghanistan since insurgents don't have combat planes.
It just wouldn't be as much of a neat and flashy toy for the Air Force brass.
Gates is doing the right thing by trying to push the military away from the Cold War mindset toward what we need now.
As to the moaning about disarmament, it won't happen. The military industrial complex is too powerful and has done an incredible job distributing projects to enough districts so that Congress will scream bloody murder if any of them are threatened.
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Weren't you talking about the deternet factor?
Let me read that post again...
"This is called the "deterrent factor."
The F-22 is a great deterrent to all those bad men.... They know that no matter what they do, the F-22 will punish them severely, so they will not be bad."
Oh that right you're confused.
Again: Clearly they weren't detered.
Neal-
"No one knows where the next conflict is going to be or what its is going to look like."
Don't be so naive son. Besides you know as well as I do there are only a handful of nations on earth with comparable Planes and more IMPORTANTLY TRAINED COMBAT PILOTS. A few of those nations even have nukes.
Please grow up people. |
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I am not sure what you are asking? do you want us to disarm? Do you want us to have a second rate military? Do you want us to fight the next war with F-15's designed and produced in the early 1970s?
personally i think we should strive to have the best military in the world capable of winning both conventional and unconventional conflicts. Having enough F-22's would ensure that we could maintain air dominance over any battle field. Google F-15 maintenance problems or F-15 groundings and you will see one of the reasons why we need more F-22's.
And for your "not too many terrorist cells have super sonic fighter jets."comment, wow, that is just dumb. No one knows where the next conflict is going to be or what its is going to look like. |
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The Raptor program currently employs about 90,000 people and is entitled to 140 billion dollars that was approved by Congress, yet not released. So, here you go, village idiots...
Take away a 100 thousand jobs and then what? Is this what the stimulus was for? Cutting defense, and then lying about how he cut the deficit? What about the jobs lost? Or did I forget to remember how he would rather give that money to ACORN and the Brownshirts force?
The Village idiots do not and will never get it. Obama can spin it any way he wants, but he is the one lying, and turning the US into an apologetic, appeasing nation and he has done nothing to earn talking about "MY' Country.
Keep following the pied piper...or maybe, take a trip to Russia, Zimbabwe to see what you will be living like in the future. |
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....Oh Wise One, that if the F-22 fails to deter, it then has the capability of blowing them out of the sky, or putting a missile in the left eye of their camel, or the window of their dacha, or in their underground bunker, or in their bowl of kimchi?
I gave you credit for some grasp of the obvious, but obviously that was more credit than you deserve..... |
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Once again excellent science fiction.
Yeah our all powefull weapon systems sure detered them!
Seem Putin wasn't detered enough to send bombers into our airspace! Great deterent fellas!
Here an idea; some villans are detered by intelligence rather than a goon with a club.
Like Lex pointed out; our fighters, our nukes, our military might did nothing to prevent 9-11.
How did your theory of deterence apply then? Oh yeah that's right you switched to pre-meptive strike mode.
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They might not have supersonic jets as our resident fool states but look what they managed to do with 4 subsonic ones back in 2001.
I'd far rather have a weapon we don't have to use that not have the weapon when we need to use it.
$9 billion? How much were Acorn getting in the stimulus again? |
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Isn't that the way the Lennon song starts? The left likes to imagine the world is going to sit still if we do. There is a new toy out there that our major enemies are using. It's called science. We already know there are weapons that can disable our entire electrical system. That alone would set us back far enough for any terrorist attacks. Since the dawn of time the most peaceful years have existed because the good guys had the best weapons. "Peace Through Superior Fire Power". It's a concept liberals will not understand as they live on sugar mountain. They feel, and we know. This is why in the end it is always conservatives they come crawling back to when the hard times come. I hope you libs out there don't consider these hard times,because there will be much crying and gnashing of teeth. |
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I know you didn't learn any history when you were being "educated" in your public school, but before there were terrorists (or as Obama calls them, naughty dish towel hangers)there were all these guys in different colored uniforms.
No, not the Packers and the Rams....we are talking about people from other countries who try to kill the people from this country.
The best way to make them be good is to show them the terrible things that will happen to them when they are bad.
This is called the "deterrent factor."
The F-22 is a great deterrent to all those bad men.... They know that no matter what they do, the F-22 will punish them severely, so they will not be bad.
Even you should understand that.... Then again....maybe not.
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that whenever the dems take over the
White House the first thing they do is cut the budget of one of the few things the federal government is actually Constitutionally mandated to take care of. I am tired of hearing halthcare, education and energy oh my. I haven't found the three of them anywhere in the constitution. |
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Jimmy Carter Redux...JC2......setting up republican landslides in the next couple of election cycles.... |
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yeah, If you want to speak russian or Chinese. |
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Jew Lovers and Israel supporters tried for treason...Ya know, treason against them peace-lovin' al-Qaeda, Hamas, Taliban & Hezbollah rascals..?
That pesky Bammo has got the genius types in his metro pockets. I, myself, am comforted. |
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Money much better spent than more programs for drug-addled fools to sit on their @sses and watch cartoons. The F-22 is a true air superiority platform that can also reach across the horizon and provide battlefield air control. Our other planes have been surpassed by hostile nations like Russia and France; China is not far behind. The best facet of this weapons platform is that the rest of the world's fighter jocks are terrified of it. Let's build a lot more of them and keep Kim Jong Il, Ahmadinejad and Putin in the hot seat. |
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necessary after all that warmth and(cough)good will he bought in Europe. 2-Carrier Groups will go Bye-Bye, as well as the F-22s. But, remember Hugh, we now occupy a pre/9-11 world where Islamist Butchers will blow us kisses instead of explosives. Why..? Because The Bamma is full of Good Will, don'tcha know.
Berlusconi waved the Prez over for photo ops and shoulder rubs and, when The Messiah asked him for 3-things, the Italian PM turned him down flat. Cool photos though, Dude. And, yummy Good Will.
Berlusconi's other Conservative colleagues, Sarkozy and Merkel were there, too. Yep, Nick Sarkozy, by-God, promised 123-MPs for Afghanistan. It gives me tickles up my leg!
New world, Hugh. Love, Baby, Love. |
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not too many terrorist cells have super sonic fighter jets. |
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Your comments are misguided. You should be thanking the military and their weapons systems for the freedom you have to make such stupid comments.
A few more years of Obama and you will have no freedoms left. |
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