Monday, March 05, 2007
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"LOST TOMB" Loses Sight of History
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Posted by:
Michael Medved at
9:15 PM
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Sunday night's broadcast on the Discovery Channel of the new documentary “The Lost Tomb of Jesus” represents one more attempt by media manipulators to distort and exploit Biblical history. James Cameron, recently foundering director of “Titanic,” sinks with this heavily-hyped Discovery Channel show based on 25-year-old Israeli excavations. Far outside the Old City of Jerusalem, archaeologists discovered ten ossuaries – or bone boxes- with indistinct lettering that may spell-out common Hebrew names, including Jesus, Mary, Matthew “son of Jesus”, and others. All leading Israeli archaeologists denounce attempts to link this tomb with Christ’s family, and use of dubious evidence to contradict the resurrection story in the New Testament. Israel’s former UN Ambassador Dore Gold makes clear in his new book “The Fight for Jerusalem,” that media outlets love focusing on challenges to Biblical accounts, but largely ignore mounting scientific evidence confirming scriptural stories. “The Lost Tomb of Jesus” follows this pattern as an insult both to responsible history and religious belief.
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... Believe the Shadows are the Real Thing
»I've pointed out the specific logical falacies you've employed right alongside your actual statements, and you fail to even recognize it.«
By that, you mean that I fail to agree with you, and you're correct.
If I gotta choice between believing you, or believing God, I choose God, thank you.
»When you do respond, you quote particular scripture as authoritative for it is the word of god.«
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...
Nobody says that you gotta believe It. You get to choose -- Freedom of Choice, Privacy -- and you get to accept the consequences, too.
» However, you assert we know it is the word of god because it says so in the bible. Don't you see the circular logic here?«
YOU assume it's circular logic. It isn't.
You're stuck in the natural world, denying the supernatural world of God. You deliberately cut yourself off from some information. That means that your conclusions cannot be trusted. That goes against the Scientific Method.
I know It's the Word of God cuz of personal experience with it. Those who are truly born again report the same experiences.
I did the experiment five years ago and found that It works. I did the Scientific Method, duplicating the experiment of others and VOILA! I duplicated the result, and those results just keep on comin'!
»That you've failed to state whether you belong to any congregation implies you are a congregation of one.«
Is that so?
I imply no such thing. You infer, and I ain't responsible for your thinking.
»Apparently...«
And THAT's the key word there.
»...you believe you are more correct in your understanding of God, Jesus and the Bible than anyone else alive today.«
It's not about me, rather about God's Grace through Jesus.
You wanna focus on me as being fallible, and I admit that I am fallible; that's why I am saved by His Grace. His Grace informs me, not scoffers.
Being imperfect doesn't mean that I cannot understand His Word. I am called to know and understand It.
Jesus said that the Mysteries of Heaven are given to those who are truly born again -- that is, the Children of God, the Saints -- not to scoffers.
He said that His parables are meant, not for those with ears and eyes, rather for those who have no ears, nor eyes. That's because the Saints automatically get it.
» If I am wrong, please tell me who does have a better understanding (other than god) than you?«
Ok. The Holy Spirit Who guides those who have confessed Jesus as "Lord," asked Him into their hearts and repented of their sins:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
So, the Holy Spirit communicates Knowledge and Understanding of God's Mysteries through His Word and into those who are truly born again.:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. |
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...and Jesus Said They are not to Know the Mysteries Which are Only for Those Truly Born Again
»I don't recall anywhere in the bible where Jesus taught just by quoting scattered lines from the Hebrew scriptures.«
Then, you need to study up a bit.
Search for, "Have you not read," "Have you read," "It is written." That's just a start.
By so referencing the Old Testament, He challenged the religionists and legalists, like you, for instance, to wonder why they don't follow the Law exactly and fully as they require others.
»Maybe you should try telling a story to make your point. It would be the very "Jesus" thing to do.«
So, you resort to instructing us on "what Jesus would do" -- pure speculation -- rather than what He did.
I am not called to tell stories. I am called by God to declare the Word. I cannot improve upon the works of Jesus.
We who are truly born again DO, however, have stories, not parables, and they are called "witnessing" and "testimony." Jesus used parable, not stories of personal witness to the amazing things God has done in His Life that changed Him. He didn't need changing.
He came to show us the Only Way to the Father.
His parables, as He says, are not so much for His sheep as for those who have no ears, no eyes.
Those truly born again become "Christ-like." That doesn't mean I am to be perfect, as He was and is.
That I am imperfect and that I own up to it illustrate my need for God's Grace through Christ, which is available to all but accessible only to those who are truly born again.
Again, all you gotta do is to do the experiment as done by those who have done it and report positive results. That's the only way to see that it works. Duplicate the results. That's the Scientific Method.
The scoffer figures that he needs only his own grace, and we can see how wonderful he has made the world, huh. |
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Swampthing,
I don't thing either you or Jesus has anything to do with Satan.
And while Jesus did quote scripture, according to gospel accounts, he mostly told stories to illustrate his points. I don't recall anywhere in the bible where Jesus taught just by quoting scattered lines from the Hebrew scriptures.
Maybe you should try telling a story to make your point. It would be the very "Jesus" thing to do.
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»And never forget that even the Devil can quote scripture.«
However, the Devil leaves out tiny bits of Scripture to make It sound authentic when his quote is not.
That's cuz he wants people not to know what It REALLY says. God wants people to know what It says, and so do I. Only Satan would argue about an authentic quote of Scripture.
Jesus quoted Scripture all the time, and the Jews thought He was Satan. Looks as though you're putting me in the same boat with Him.
So, you're not saying that Jesus was Satan, are you?
Anyway, I follow His lead in quoting Scripture. |
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Watching Swampthing go is like watching a trainwreck. I know I shouldn't look, but I can't take my eyes off of it. I can't decide whether he's real or not. Either this is a fairly sophisticated joke, or a remarkable example of the destructive power of abandoning reason to advance self promotion.
Swamp: Virtually all of your reasoning is circular, and the rest is just unintelligle. I've pointed out the specific logical falacies you've employed right alongside your actual statements, and you fail to even recognize it. That speaks volumes. When you do respond, you quote particular scripture as authoritative for it is the word of god. However, you assert we know it is the word of god because it says so in the bible. Don't you see the circular logic here?
That you've failed to state whether you belong to any congregation implies you are a congregation of one. Apparently, you believe you are more correct in your understanding of God, Jesus and the Bible than anyone else alive today. If I am wrong, please tell me who does have a better understanding (other than god) than you?
Take your time. |
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Swamp Thing, I appreciated your enthusiasm & (apparently) heartfelt faith at first, but Stan is right. You're not doing God (or yourself) any favors here.
I hope you'll believe me when I say I am every bit as certain that Jesus rose from the dead as you say you are, but circular logic and smug assertions won't convince anybody else that our belief is correct. |
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»I'm leaning more and more towards troll, though loon seems to have tagged a nerve.«
Nah. You don't bother me.
» You don't seem to like the poor or mentally challenged very much.«
I'm here sending messages to you, aren't I?
» Do you believe that obsessive bible knowledge excuses you from loving your neighbour...«
"Love" is "unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, at least as much concern for their Salvation as you have for your own."
I have plenty of that.
On the other hand, you believe that "love" is an enabler, that it means that we must leave each other alone to do our own things. Live and let live.
»You've commented on everything but the question I asked. Do you have a congregation on this planet?«
By "this planet," do you mean Mars, where YOU are, or Earth, where I am?
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I feel a little like I'm murdering a kitten here, but it has to be said: the popcorn machines at KMart have internet browsers now?
I'm leaning more and more towards troll, though loon seems to have tagged a nerve. You don't seem to like the poor or mentally challenged very much. Do you believe that obsessive bible knowledge excuses you from loving your neighbour, which is I believe (and I'm absolutely sure you'll correct me here) a commandment?
You've commented on everything but the question I asked. Do you have a congregation on this planet?
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»There is almost no relation between my message and your responses«
None that you can see anyway.
»I have to conclude you're either a total loon, unsupervised child, or a dedicated troll.«
Is that the kind of stuff they're teaching you people now in special Ed?
Or are you just a product of unintelligent design?
In any case, don't take out on me that you ran out of food stamps. |
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Wow. There is almost no relation between my message and your responses, even though you've taken the trouble to separate them out. I understand why no-one else is interested in this awful mess of an interaction.
I have to conclude you're either a total loon, unsupervised child, or a dedicated troll. I am curius though, do you belong to some sort of congregation (if you are a troll, feel free to make something up), or have you perhaps been barred from regular services? By congregation I mean corporeal humans only. |
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»If you know the truth already, why do you bother with debate (such as it is)?«
The Lord once His Saints to declare His Word.
» If anyone who disagrees with you is not righteous, why engage with them? You're certainly not trying to convince them of anything but your superiority.«
So, you're intimidated?? Well, that's something for you to work out. I got nothing to do with it.
On the other hand, if a person's conscience is bothering him when he sees the Word declared, that's something for him to consider.
» How would that encourage others to join the Faith, or would you prefer to be alone in your unique understanding of the Word?«
Face-to-face, it's different from a stupid message board like this where scoffers abound. There is no getting through to scoffers, but there are people out there who are reading and who may need to lessons of the Word. You don't want to deprive them of what they think they need, are you? You're not trying to make their decision for them, are you?
»Personally I think it's God who determines the righteous, not you and your biblical-trivial-pursuit gold star.«
God sends Messengers to deliver His Message. His Messengers are His Saints -- that is, does who are truly born again.
Their job is not to distinguish who gets angry, or offended at the Word of God, but simply to declare the Word of God.
»And I accused you of being unreasonable, not of being in league with Satan, though he could probably learn a thing or two from you. «
Now, are you going back to your job running the popcorn machine at Kmart? |
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So reason gets chucked out with the scriptural bathwater. If you know the truth already, why do you bother with debate (such as it is)? If anyone who disagrees with you is not righteous, why engage with them? You're certainly not trying to convince them of anything but your superiority. How would that encourage others to join the Faith, or would you prefer to be alone in your unique understanding of the Word? Personally I think it's God who determines the righteous, not you and your biblical-trivial-pursuit gold star.
I wasn't quoting scripture by the way (otherwise I would be, well, quoting scripture - you see the irony - possibly not - you'll need your "natural eyes", if you haven't plucked them out yet). And I accused you of being unreasonable, not of being in league with Satan, though he could probably learn a thing or two from you. |
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»God provided us with better faculties to discover Truth than the ability to quote scripture at random. «
It's not random quotation.
The key to hermeneutics -- proper interpretation -- is precept upon precept. Scripture interprets Scripture. Diamonds cut diamonds.
»Constantly elevating yourself above those you disagree with achieves nothing beyond making you feel superior. «
Those who are truly born again are separated, by God, from the rest of the world. In fact, those who are truly born again are no longer of the world, rather of God.
We are to declare the Word of God.
Jesus said that people like you would be offended by it. He said to do it anyway. And so I do.
»Arrogant proclamations of our God-given superiority over the faithless wins no hearts or minds.«
There will always be people offended by the declaration of the Word of God. So what?
» So quit making the rest of us look bad!«
You mean worse.
The Word of God is supposed to sort out the Righteous from the unrighteous. The unrighteous are supposed to look bad.
»And never forget that even the Devil can quote scripture.«
And he quotes it out of context, too. Not only that, he leaves words out so that Scripture sounds like it's the real thing but is not.
Satan is also the accuser of the Brethren. |
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Well I guess Michael doesn't read comments to his articles. Given the quality of discourse here so far I can hardly blame him.
Marsh monster, you do the Faith a tremendous disservice. God provided us with better faculties to discover Truth than the ability to quote scripture at random. Constantly elevating yourself above those you disagree with achieves nothing beyond making you feel superior.
In a world where the attacks of atheists are becoming ever more eloquent and determined we need to raise our game. Arrogant proclamations of our God-given superiority over the faithless wins no hearts or minds. So quit making the rest of us look bad! And never forget that even the Devil can quote scripture.
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»If god spoke to all people at the same time, saying the same thing, all simultaneously in their native languages, that would be pretty good stuff.«
And, so, He did.
»If there wasn't so much disagreement between christians as to so many fundamental christian issues, such as method of salvation, who gets saved, the nature of hell, whether the resurrection was spiritual or physical, divorce, abortion, capital punishment (shall I really go on?) If you are reading (and quoting) the exact same "Word of God" as the foundation for your position on all these issues, how can their possible be any disagreement among real Christians about theme?«
Not all those who say they are born again are born again.
Satan gave Eve the first, revised version of the Word of God. Since then, he has duped a great many people into believing that there are many ways to the Father. Unfortunately, those claiming to be born again fall among the deceived.
Fortunately, a remnant remains. Those truly born again no there is only One Way.
There is only one way to know whether somebody who says he is truly born again is telling the Truth. Compare what he says with Scripture.
»I just recognize that the opposite of faith is certainty.«
That's what Satan told Eve. He told her that she and Adam could do it by themselves.
So, tell us how it's worked out so far.
» (Old Christian monk saying). Faith is not knowing something to be true, but believing something to be true even when there may be reasons to doubt it.«
If a person who claims to be born again recognizes that there may be reasons to doubt what he believes, he is not on board.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
» This drive by some to try to substantiate the most important aspects of God, including the Christian concept of God, by asserting that no rational person could honestly look at the bible and conclude differently is just foolist in my mind.«
No surprise there:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
» Supernatural explanations are always the least probable explanation for anything, using a reasoned approach to problem solving.«
Pro 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.
Pro 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.
Pro 15:14 The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.
Pro 19:3 The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
» Again, the diversity of theology within Christianity itself make it obvious that such a position is untenable.«
If you base your doubt on what you think is doubt within the Church, you're not being very objective, are you? The objective person would investigate himself.
» That's why I see faith for what it is, not what I want it to be.«
That's what Satan was trying to do with the Eve, and she buckled, too.
»Your selective use of scripture to attempt to rebut a philosophical point is...well...pointless.«
Diamonds cut diamonds. Scripture interprets Scripture. Precept upon precept.
What I present is hermeneutical. I present a scriptural line of thought. That's unlike the scoffer who presents one verse, not knowing where it came from, nor how it got there.
On the other hand, if you can show the scriptural line of thought that I presented is false, please show it.
»Shall I quote sayings from holy text right back to prove you wrong?«
Show me a scriptural line of thought, not just one verse.
»See WHAT? Please be specific.«
I have been. You just don't buy it. That's because you can't. The natural man doesn't accept things of the spiritual. He is blind to them.
» Have you travelled to a Buddhist wat at the top of a mountian and talked with a monk who spent 7 years in meditation before attaining enlightenment?«
Irrelevant. There is no Savior in Buddhism. There is no forgiveness.
» I have experienced the profound effect of spirituality on people of many different faiths, and see commonality among them - not division.«
Satan is happy with that because they are no threat to him.
Christianity is, however, a threat to him because it works. With Christ, there is Salvation.
» I am a big fan of faith and spirituality...I just believe differently than you, just as you believe differently than countless other Christians on any number of material issues.«
Jesus said that He is the Only Way to the Father. So, you believe He is a liar.
»...please don't quote more scripture as a response...«
Again with the telling me what evidence I can and cannot use.
Why do you feel the need to tell me what evidence I may and may not bring, when I don't even pretend to tell you what evidence you may, or may not, bring? I mean, it's not going to make any difference that you tell me what evidence I may, or may not, bring; I'm going to bring whatever evidence I feel is necessary and relevant. |
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»The truth is, people will believe what they want to believe and if scientific evidence threatens that they will just dismiss the evidence.«
We look at all the evidence, for sure.
However, scoffers are the ones who won't even look at Scripture. That's not good Science. That's not objective thinking. They won't even consider proof. |
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»The scientific method is far more complex than that«
For our purpose, it's simple.
I've done the experiment, and I report that it works.
All you have to do, to confirm it, is do the same experiment.
»What controlled experiment are you referring to?«
I have read and put into operation the scriptural Truths in the Word of God. I report that they work. This report squares with great multitudes of similar reports.
If you want to say that the Word of God is not true and doesn't work, you have to do the experiment -- read the Word -- and do it the way it is intended to be done.
However, you're afraid to do the experiment. You know how it will turn out. That's not good Science.
« How do you explain the millions upon millions of Muslims who have "verified" the Koran using (what I believe to be) the very same methodology you suggest? «
Did great multitudes see God anoint Mohammed?
Did great multitudes hear God say, "This is My Beloved Son?" Mohammed was not God's son. He did not come to save the world.
»You seemed to be suggesting that because people who accept your god have a personal transformation, that your god must necessarily exist.«
It's good that you admit that it seems that way only to you and not to the objective world.
The reason for that is that you made it up in your head.
Great multitudes of people report that the Word of God works. Groups of people have seen things at the same time and verify it for each other.
These great multitudes of people report that their relationship with God squares with His Word. They report, also, that, when they conformed to the Word, the promises therein came true.
All you have to do is do the experiment to find out for yourself.
It's not very objective of you to discount the findings of great multitudes when you haven't even done what they've done.
»you have to establish the actual connection.«
What, between witness and event?
Witnesses are all over the place. Of course, to scoffers, none of them know what they're talking about.
»What "knowledge" do you refer to?«
Any knowledge -- and Knowledge -- that confirms what great multitudes have seen and heard with their own eyes and ears and confirm to each other what they have seen and heard.
»I am certainly familiar with the evidences and arguments of the most prominent Christian apologists, and find them unconvincing.«
Of course you do. You have precluded yourself from accepting anything that demolishes you're preconceived notions from the worldly perspective.
However, the Word of God is not dealing with the worldly perspective, rather the spiritual perspective. The natural man he is utterly incapable of understanding this.
» Just because I disagree with your views, doesn't mean I am not aware of the evidence.«
Scoffers read the Bible academically, not the way It was intended to be read.
Therefore, they cannot understand.
»If you are suggesting that I must first accept something as true, and then I will know it is true, well....I'm sure you see the problem with that.«
The scientific method -- as well as debating method -- assumes the positive question, that the assertion is true. In order to do the experiment, you have to do at the way those who have done it before have done it. You must use their method. Otherwise, you will ensure the result that YOU want. |
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»Is it possible or impossible that this is the lost tomb of jesus? «
God says that Jesus was resurrected bodily.
Men -- including Cameron -- say that he was not.
Men are fallible.
I believe God.
»on what is that based other than a belief in the physical resurrection of jesus and his bodily ascention into heaven?«
You ask for evidence, and, then, tell me what evidence I am to bring and not bring.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Other than all the things your wife does for you -- things in the natural, physical world -- on what you base your belief that she loves you when she says, "I love you." |
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Let me ask you this...
Is it possible or impossible that this is the lost tomb of jesus? If it is impossible, meaning there is no possiblity, on what is that based other than a belief in the physical resurrection of jesus and his bodily ascention into heaven?
It's one thing to say it's unlikely, it's quite another to say its impossible. |
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""Why don't YOU admit that there is absolutely no evidence that would change YOUR mind?"
No, because I will give you an example. If god spoke to all people at the same time, saying the same thing, all simultaneously in their native languages, that would be pretty good stuff.
If there wasn't so much disagreement between christians as to so many fundamental christian issues, such as method of salvation, who gets saved, the nature of hell, whether the resurrection was spiritual or physical, divorce, abortion, capital punishment (shall I really go on?) If you are reading (and quoting) the exact same "Word of God" as the foundation for your position on all these issues, how can their possible be any disagreement among real Christians about theme?
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"One foot in and one foot out, eh?"
No, I just recognize that the opposite of faith is certainty. (Old Christian monk saying). Faith is not knowing something to be true, but believing something to be true even when there may be reasons to doubt it. This drive by some to try to substantiate the most important aspects of God, including the Christian concept of God, by asserting that no rational person could honestly look at the bible and conclude differently is just foolist in my mind. Again, the diversity of theology within Christianity itself make it obvious that such a position is untenable. Even you should be able to recognize this. That's why I see faith for what it is, not what I want it to be.
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» Supernatural explanations are always the least probable explanation for anything, using a reasoned approach to problem solving.«
"Pro 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.....etc. etc. etc."
Your selective use of scripture to attempt to rebut a philosophical point is...well...pointless. Shall I quote sayings from holy text right back to prove you wrong? If we were debating scripture itself, then this technique might have some merit. But as you use it in this context, it is...well...pointless.
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"It's "implausible" to YOU cuz you an't see it with your natural eyes."
See WHAT? Please be specific. Have I seen the transformation of people's live who have dedicated themselve to Jesus as their lord and savior? Of course I have. Have you travelled to a Buddhist wat at the top of a mountian and talked with a monk who spent 7 years in meditation before attaining enlightenment? I don't know, but I have. I have experienced the profound effect of spirituality on people of many different faiths, and see commonality among them - not division. I am a big fan of faith and spirituality...I just believe differently than you, just as you believe differently than countless other Christians on any number of material issues.
Can't you see this? (and please don't quote more scripture as a response) |
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The political overtones of this story are fairly evident here - I suspect the last people Israeli archeologists want to offend are Christian conservatives, they're not stupid. Also, right wing commentators know where their bread is buttered, what would expect them to say?
I'm not defending the film, or the ideas, or the science, I'm just questioning the semi-hysteria that a few questions seemed to ignite. |
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Medved says, “The Lost Tomb of Jesus” follows this pattern as an insult both to responsible history and religious belief."
The fact is, anything that questions any aspect of traditional religious belief is considered an insult. The purpose of this kind of comment is to abort any civil or reasonable discussion and keep religious conservatives content and unruffled.
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Good posts, I definitely agree.
But I think you should stop corresponding with swamp Thing, his head is about to explode, and we're going to end up with the entire New Testament on this thread.
The interesting thing about this whole story has been the degree to which people are threatened by any form of inquiry that suggests they may not have every single answer to every single question.
Also, if religion is based on faith, why would it be so important to produce "mounting scientific evidence"? The truth is, people will believe what they want to believe and if scientific evidence threatens that they will just dismiss the evidence. (Creationism anyone?)
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Swampthing,
"The scientific method you love so much includes doing an experiment and letting another do it, too, to see whether the result is the same. If the result is repeated, it is verified."
The scientific method is far more complex than that. I'll demonstrate below...
"Aside from the fact that millions upon millions -- great multitides -- have done this and found the Word of God verified, YOU can do the same experiment; but you won't cuz you know what you would find...the same thing those multitudes have found."
What controlled experiment are you referring to? How do you explain the millions upon millions of Muslims who have "verified" the Koran using (what I believe to be) the very same methodology you suggest?
What is the result you are suggesting?
What is the fallicy you are using? I have an answer for that, it's called "ad populum" - or appeal to population. It suggests the truth of an assertion because lots of people believe it.
Here's another one you are using..."Post hoc ergo propter hoc" - meaning "after the fact, therefore because of the fact." You seemed to be suggesting that because people who accept your god have a personal transformation, that your god must necessarily exist. Sorry, but you have to establish the actual connection. This type of logic would necessarily validate every religious belief and experience the world has ever known.
"Therefore, a result adverse to your worldly view prevents you from knowing Truth. You preclude yourself at the same time you tell everybody that you are soooo open to knowledge. Yet, you stop yourself short of getting that knowledge."
What "knowledge" do you refer to? Please don't hide the ball. I am certainly familiar with the evidences and arguments of the most prominent Christian apologists, and find them unconvincing. Just because I disagree with your views, doesn't mean I am not aware of the evidence.
If you are suggesting that I must first accept something as true, and then I will know it is true, well....I'm sure you see the problem with that.
BTW, thanks for actually quoting my posts, it really helps.
-t
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»there is no amount of scientific, archaeological, statistical, or any other kind of evidence that could ever change your mind.«
"Or any other kind of evidence"?
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Five years ago, evidence changed my mind, opened my eyes and ears.
The scientific method you love so much includes doing an experiment and letting another do it, too, to see whether the result is the same. If the result is repeated, it is verified.
Aside from the fact that millions upon millions -- great multitides -- have done this and found the Word of God verified, YOU can do the same experiment; but you won't cuz you know what you would find...the same thing those multitudes have found.
Therefore, a result adverse to your worldly view prevents you from knowing Truth. You preclude yourself at the same time you tell everybody that you are soooo open to knowledge. Yet, you stop yourself short of getting that knowledge. |
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»you're response was not only predictible, but cliche.«
It IS predictable cuz it's been in the Word of God for thousands of years!
To the worldly, it IS cliché; they want not to hear the voice [or is it "vice"?] of conscience.
» Why don't you just admit that there is no amount of scientific, archaeological, statistical, or any other kind of evidence that could ever change your mind.«
Why don't YOU admit that there is absolutely no evidence that would change YOUR mind?
»I admitted to shortcomings of the "Lost Tomb," but you attacked things that even most of the critics of the hypothesis didn't recognize, such as "chicken scratch" or the mispelled name of Mary. What ARE you even talking about?«
We know how difficult it is for you to know.
»And you talk about it not even being "plausable" given your critiques, yet completely ignore the inherent implausibility of any supernatural explanation.«
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
» Supernatural explanations are always the least probable explanation for anything, using a reasoned approach to problem solving.«
Pro 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.
Pro 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.
Pro 15:14 The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.
Pro 19:3 The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
»That is not to discount faith, but just to recognize it for what it is.«
One foot in and one foot out, eh?
Above, you say that I ignore the "inherent" implausibility of the supernatural explanation. "Inherent" isn't part of the explanation, rather part of your mind, a notion YOU conjure up.
It's "implausible" to YOU cuz you an't see it with your natural eyes.
Neither can you see, with your natural eyes, "love." So, I guess you're saying that "love" doesn't exist. We see. |
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Swampthing, you're response was not only predictible, but cliche. Why don't you just admit that there is no amount of scientific, archaeological, statistical, or any other kind of evidence that could ever change your mind.
I admitted to shortcomings of the "Lost Tomb," but you attacked things that even most of the critics of the hypothesis didn't recognize, such as "chicken scratch" or the mispelled name of Mary. What ARE you even talking about?
And you talk about it not even being "plausable" given your critiques, yet completely ignore the inherent implausibility of any supernatural explanation. Supernatural explanations are always the least probable explanation for anything, using a reasoned approach to problem solving.
That is not to discount faith, but just to recognize it for what it is.
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The article says "mounting scientific evidence", implying that new findings have confirmed prior research, or at least built upon that research constructively. That is indeed compelling, and it sounds quite specific.
No offense, bogmeister, but I guess I wasn't asking you. Thanks for your input anyway. I think that only Michael himself can answer that one. Assuming people even read comments on their own blogs...
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»I would be most grateful for a link or reference to "mounting scientific evidence confirming scriptural stories". «
Go to your browser and type in some terms and VOILA! there will be many.
Or, just go to the KJV Bible, where you'll find references to multitudes of witnesses. |
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I would be most grateful for a link or reference to "mounting scientific evidence confirming scriptural stories". I'm doing some research on behalf of my nephew, so all responses welcome.
Many thanks
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»if you think you are still being intellectually honest...are you open to the possibility that the claims made in the documentary could be true with sufficient evidence...«
What is "sufficient evidence"? Is it YOUR standard to which I am beholden, or God's Standard?
»...or is your mind set in its rejection regardless of what is presented. Answering that question will shed light.«
It's not even plausible what with all the problems, such as "chicken scratch" labels, so many Jesuses at the time and the fact that the Pharisees would love to have had that thing to "prove" that Jesus was not God's Son. There are other problems, like Mary's name is not spelled correctly.
In any case, Jesus' tomb is empty cuz He was resurrected bodily.
That is Light, and you are looking only for "light."
Now, if you wanna believe Cameron, go ahead; It doesn't relect on MY Salvation. |
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While there is certainly controversy about whether the ossuaries in question belong to Jesus and his relatives, there is nothing wrong with asking the question. To just reflexively dismiss actual archaeological evidence that suggests the possibility of being linked to Jesus just because it offends one's religious views lacks intellectual honesty.
Clearly, not "all leading Israeli archaeologists denounce" the hypothesis asserted by the documentary, as one of the archeaologists who first discovered the ossuaries in Israel supports the possible connection to Jesus of Nazareth.
While there are aspects of this find that are inconsistent with what many experts believe about the reality of the circumstances at the time, let us not forget that supernatural explanations are always inconsistent with what we understand about our world. Even with nearly 2,000 years of apologetics striving to substantiate the supernatual resurrection of Jesus, the true basis of that notion is still faith, far above reason and evidence - just as it has always been.
Ask this question if you think you are still being intellectually honest...are you open to the possibility that the claims made in the documentary could be true with sufficient evidence, or is your mind set in its rejection regardless of what is presented. Answering that question will shed light. |
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(Psa 1:1) Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
(Joh 14:30) [Jesus said] the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
This means not listening, nor watching, and letting the ungodly get inside you and grab on until you submit to it.
It's ok to watch and consider in the Light of the Word, however, having the Word answer the BS in what is before you.
(Isa 60:18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Praise of and thanks to God are critical to fighting off the demonic, vain imaginations that lead to a darkened heart.
The prime example of how to answer Satan is when Jesus was in the wilderness, being tempted of the Devil. What was His repsonse EACH time? "IT IS WRITTEN..." He told us how to do it.
So, there is how to stand up to the attacks of Satan that are part of shows like this and anything else that presents temptations that would, otherwise, coax you into destructive conduct. |
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You'll notice that nobody attacks Buddhism, nor Islam, nor Confucianism. That's cuz they don't have a Savior who destroyed the works of the Devil.
Christianity works, and this makes Satan very angry, and, so, he channels all his effort, not against those beliefs that are of no threat to him, rather on Christianity which is; and, so, you have shows like this and "The Duh Vinci Code."
However, the Word of God protects those who run to the Lord, and our faith is stronger as ever! |
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