Wednesday, December 03, 2008
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(Ambinder's Blog) On Obama's Citizenship...
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Posted by:
Matt Lewis at
3:10 PM
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Marc Ambinder takes issue today with an email sent out by Townhall.com regarding Obama's birth certificate.
My immediate response to Marc would be that to understand Townhall is to understand that we represent a broad array of conservative voices and opinions. In fact, we do not even publish editorials or take editorial positions. What is more, clearly we have regular writers (Kathleen Parker, for example) who express viewpoints that I personally find absurd, offensive and often childish. Clearly some conservatives out there like her though -- so we still run her columns ...
This whole notion of Obama's birth certificate, however, is something I've been meaning to write about anyway, as I have grown very tired of seeing a few of our commenters dwell on this ridiculous rumor.
I am of the opinion that anyone advancing the notion that Obama is not a citizen, and thus not qualified to become president, is actually undermining the conservative cause. Sadly, this ridiculous "conspiracy theory" will only serve to undermine the legitimate attacks on Obama, by casting us all in the role of zealots.
All indications are that Obama was born in the state of Hawaii. His mother was clearly an American citizen. In many regards, Obama has more of a claim to be eligible for the presidency than did Barry Goldwater (born in the "Arizona territory"), George Romney (born in Mexico), or John McCain (born in the Panama Canal Zone)...
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Obama, but dwelling on this ridiculous notion will only serve to undermine them.
To answer Marc's question of whether or not this is a legitimate question to ask, I would only reply that this is a legitimate topic if you believe in free speech. Moreover, it is not racist, sexist, or vulgar -- just (in my opinion) very destructive and unhelpful to those who care about advancing the cause of conservatism...
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"Given that Hawaii issues "courtesy" birth registration certificates for births that did NOT actually occur in Hawaii itself"
That legislation was passed in 1982. |
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Given that Hawaii issues "courtesy" birth registration certificates for births that did NOT actually occur in Hawaii itself, how can you BE SURE exactly WHAT TYPE of original birth certificate was "verified" by the Hawaiian officials? An original of such a "courtesy" birth registration certificate is NOT PROOF that his birth actually occurred in Hawaii at all! It has already been PROVEN that certain attempts to post images of his "supposed actual birth certificate" have turned out to be FORGERIES so HOW can you BE SURE of the veracity of Obama's actual birth place? |
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as your head. Your rhetoric is old and tired, and you never present any facts, only YOUR views about why we should not concern ourselves over such a trivial thing as making sure our President is a legal, Natural Born Citizen of the United states Of America. By taking such a course, you are in effect spitting on the Constitution and everything this country stands for...or USED TO before you liberal-minded trolls decided to make your uninformed voices heard. Our Forefathers wold turn over in their graves! |
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I have no idea what Obama is trying to hide, but it has to be something. If he is just trying to be the kind of person Fred thinks he is being, that is a sad statement too.
If what Fred says is true, what a sad, little man Obama is. I think it is something else. I think it may be Obama's father. I tend to believe he is a natural-born citizen, but he is hiding something else. If he would just produce the birth certificate, he could lay it all to rest. If he does not, he is simply telling the American people that he really does not have any respect for them. He will continue on with that attitude, and they will show him what they think of it in four years. You libs won't be so happy with how it all turns out then. |
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a president. They were filed long before Obama was elected. Some were filed before he was nominated.
Continue to misstate facts Fred. That is why there is suspicion. Obama and his supporters are prone to misstating the facts.
Many of his supporters do not even know basic facts about him or his policies.
If as Fred suggest, Obama is not providing his original birth certificate just to keep people riled up, there is little else anyone needs to know about how seriously he takes the office of POTUS. |
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"that doesn't mean Obama or anyone else is above having to provide a legal document proving US Citizenship when running for public office...it's the law that is in place and is being practiced in the US every day, you know!!!"
No I din't know. I know that political operatives and opponents have questioned his citizenship - without standing. Can you imagine the chaos if EVERYONE had the right to sue the president because they FELT LIKE IT? I just wonder how many of you folks would've supported the right for Code Pink to bring Bush to court? After all they're AMERICAN citizens - and - by YOUR logic, have a RIGHT to bring the president to court based on THEIR interpretation of the Constitution! Many people thought Bush LIED to Americans - a high crime by ANY standard - yet we were POWERLESS to drag that criminal to court. You know why?
We didn't have STANDING...
And guess who sued him and LOST -
Phil Berg - they guy suing Obama...
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"Such a simple thing to do to stop the BS once and for all, but Obama stubbornly refuses to do so...why?"
because he loves making people like you crazy...
and I kinda like it too... |
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"And when did so many Americans decide to begin practicing Anti-americanism? And when are you going to leave this country you obviously hate so much and go to live in a Muslim/Commusnist ruled country where you'd obviously be more in tune with their policies? I say, the sooner all you Liberal minded Obama worshippers leave, the better!!!"
But - according to you, Obama IS a Marxist AND a Muslim - so I'm right at home...
indeed - maybe it's YOU who - contesting an election in which the majority of Americans - and the most in American history - cast their vote for the marxist/communist - are the anti-American...
So pack YOUR bags... |
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why is Obama paying three law firms to block access to his vault birth certificate?
That has gotta make you wonder, Mr. Lewis; and if it doesn't, I wonder why not.
Such a simple thing to do to stop the BS once and for all, but Obama stubbornly refuses to do so...why? |
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You said, in part: in fact, the term NATURAL BORN CITIZEN has been disputed many times over the course of this nation...
I say: Well so what? Just because it has been disputed (what hasn't been disputed by Liberals over the years when something doesn't fit their agendas?) that doesn't mean Obama or anyone else is above having to provide a legal document proving US Citizenship when running for public office...it's the law that is in place and is being practiced in the US every day, you know!!!
Age and Citizenship requirements - US Constitution, Article II, Section 1
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.
Now I ask you: What part of the above statement from the Constitution do you, or your obvious Messiah, Barack Hussein Obama, the Muslim Dictator wannabe understand about the written word of the Constitution that we live by on a daily basis in this country, and have done so since the day it was drawn up??
And when did so many Americans decide to begin practicing Anti-americanism? And when are you going to leave this country you obviously hate so much and go to live in a Muslim/Commusnist ruled country where you'd obviously be more in tune with their policies? I say, the sooner all you Liberal minded Obama worshippers leave, the better!!! |
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"Why do YOU think he refuses to make his birth certificate public?"
He has - the COLB is considered a birth certificate - but assuming it's not - why should he? The man has stated he's an American citizen - that's good enough for me. Why should Obama play YOUR game? This would be like asking Bush to PROVE that he had nothing to do with 9/11 - a charge - BTW - that the same Phil Berg who now accuses Obama brought against Bush - I don't recall too many of you folks demanding proof that Bush had no pre-knowledge of 9/11 - though many folks claimed he did... I don't recall folks like YOU screaming for investigations into the so-called explosives placed in the stairwell of 1 WTC!
most folks wrote them off as nuts - and there were FAR MORE of them than folks like you who accuse Obama of lying about his status. Sorry - by even acknowlwedging you, he gives credence to this nonsense... |
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your statement does not make sense.
Why do YOU think he refuses to make his birth certificate public?
His refusal is an indication, I did not say it was proof. Indications are not proofs by definition. Indications are simply facts that lead people to draw conclusions. The fact is Obama refuses to make his birth certificate public. He has a reason for refusing. You do not know what his reason is.
His refusal to make his birth certificate public leads people to believe the birth certificate does not support his citizenship. Other facts that lead one to draw the conclusion that he is hiding his true nationality are his refusals to make public his college records, from Occidental, from Columbia and from Harvard. His refusals are not proof that he is hiding something. His refusals are indications that he is hiding something.
The certificate Obama put on-line is not a birth certificate. It is a certificate of live birth that the State of Hawaii verifies is supported by a birth certificate (no one is questioning whether Obama was born (unless you are one of those who think he is the messiah who descended directly from heaven). In addition, it is a document that was created in 2007. Obama was reportedly born in 1961 (although there is no documentation available to confirm that), unless you believe what is reported in newspapers is beyond questioning.
Have you ever seen a birth certificate that did not identify who delivered the baby or where the baby was delivered?
Fred, maybe in the future you could at least make sense when you post on TH. |
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"Let me repeat that: if you say that BHO was definitively born in HI, you're making a false statement.
We simply *do not know*."
yes we do - a newspaper clip from 1961 and a verified Hawaii birth certificate - that SOME claim is a fraud...which - of course, doesn't make it so... |
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"One indication that his is not is his refusal to provide his original birth certificate to the courts. Another indication are statements by his Kenyan grandmother that she was present at his birth."
Both of those staements are false - his refusal to comply with political operatives and opponents is not an indication of his citizenship - and the grandmother story is quite suspect - a phone call to a party in Kenya - the line was dropped multiple times during the call - and NO PROOF that it was - in fact - his grandmother... |
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"Obama IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO PRODUCE A TRUE, CORRECT, VALID, LEGAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO RUN FOR THE OFFICE, and if he does not, HE IS NOT ELIGIBLE, PURE AND SIMPLE."
Can you point that out in the constitution - or did you just make that up? The constitution is clear about the requirements - and the word BIRTH CERTIFICATE doesn't appear there once... in fact, the term NATURAL BORN CITIZEN has been disputed many times over the course of this nation... |
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I take exception to your comment that "All indications are..." he is an American citizen.
One indication that his is not is his refusal to provide his original birth certificate to the courts. Another indication are statements by his Kenyan grandmother that she was present at his birth.
Please try to write a little more precisely. It helps one organize their thoughts and positions. Your phrasing indicates that you have not thought about or explored this issue very well.
I thought you were a more lucid thinker than this post demostrates. |
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"Where do all these overbearing Liberals get off saying Obama's birth certificate is a non-issue, and calling we Conservatives moronic names for wanting adherance to that Constitution?"
You could care less about the Constitution - Obama has already stated he's a citizen - there's a newspaper clip - as well as the birth certificate - Hawaii has verified that Obama was BORN in hawaii - and all that has resulted in are charges of lies, conspriacies and coverups - and more lawsuits. This is nothing but an effort to discredit Obama and cause dissension. If you really cared about the Constitution - you'd actually read it: Amendment XX of the US Constitution:
Section 3. ...if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President....
IOW - the voters decide and if constitutional issues arise - the congress decides - but that's not what this is all about...
this is pure undermining of the electorate - plain and simple...
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[Where do all these overbearing Liberals get off saying Obama's birth certificate is a non-issue, and calling we Conservatives moronic names for wanting adherance to that Constitution?]
They're not calling you names for wanting adherence to the Constitution. They're calling you unreasonable, because despite all evidence to the contrary, you continue to hold to an irrational belief.
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081101/NEWS05/8 11010345/1001/localnewsfront
"State Health Department employees continue to be barraged by requests from people demanding to see Barack Obama's birth certificate, including some who have called the department's registrar of vital statistics at home — in the middle of the night... [state health director Dr. Chiyome] Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama's birth certificate and found it to be valid."
There's a copy online. State officials have said the original exists and is valid. There is a birth announcement in a Hawaiian paper for Obama.
Now, unless, you choose to believe that the State of Hawaii is in on the grand conspiracy, there's no rational reason to continue holding to an erroneous belief. |
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If you have forgotten the campaign already then ill refresh your memory. He didnt give up his donor list because he obviously had something or should i say someONE to hide. He didnt give up info on his records of his "secret meetings" which LA Times had proof of damaging footage. So dont be so suprised when he denies releasing proof of his citizenship. As the upcoming leader of the greatest country in the world Obama should have no secrets. And the truth will be even harder to seek once he is inaugurated. I pray for this country and the citizens of. We have issues of greater value now that someone as shady as Obama is leader. |
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Where do all these overbearing Liberals get off saying Obama's birth certificate is a non-issue, and calling we Conservatives moronic names for wanting adherance to that Constitution?
I for one, do not believe that we as a people should allow ANYONE to trample on it by thumbing their noses and doing as they dammn well please. Barack Husssein Obama has done just that!
In case there's anyone out there who doesn't believe in the Constitution, and the fact that
"it is the law of this land," they need to be in serious trouble with the courts on day and be denied the application of it in their defense. They would quickly change their tunes.
I've heard from people that:
"we should not rock the boat, the blacks will riot."
I say: Well what the hell? You mean you weren't aware they've done that before?
And I've heard,
"It doesn't mean that much to me about his birth certificate because he's already been elected."
I say: Well, unelect him! When we make a mistake in this country we can still take it back, right?
"His birth certificate should not be an issue."
I say: Well then, let's ask Queen Elizabeth if she's tired of ruling over England, and if so maybe she'd come over here and run for President in 2012. After all, she is a woman, well respected, with LOTS of experience running somethinn and has been vetted!
Bottom line is - Obama IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO PRODUCE A TRUE, CORRECT, VALID, LEGAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO RUN FOR THE OFFICE, and if he does not, HE IS NOT ELIGIBLE, PURE AND SIMPLE.
Obama is not a God, HE MUST OBEY THE LAWS, AND IF HE BROKE THEM BY LYING ABOUT HIS BIRTH BEING IN HAWAII, HE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW!!
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Obama says,
he is a American citizen,
why dont he just produce his birth certificate,
whats the big deal,
you have to be born on American soil,
or US territory,
unless his mother and father are in the Military,
which they were not,
so please produce the birth certificate so we can put this to rest. |
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The issue of Obama's place of birth IS, despite all the detractions from his supporters, vitally critical to the legitimacy of his presidency...he has NOT, based on certain CREDIBLE SOURCES, produced an ORIGINAL birth certificate that CONFIRMS his PLACE OF BIRTH since Hawaii allows "courtesy" registrations of births that occurred elsewhere...so an original of THAT type of "courtesy" registration birth certificate means NOTHING towards being eligible to run for the presidency...however, it is now TOO LATE to do anything about this since his proper vetting should have been done BEFORE all the primaries took place and especially since he has now already started to receive classified intelligence briefings as the "officially chosen" president-elect...in fact, if this issue continues to fester, I wouldn't be surprised if the SCOTUS and/or Congress were to enact a ONE-TIME EXCEPTION to avoid nationwide street riots and pandemonium by Obama's supporters! |
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It's true, Townhall does run some mainstream conservative commentary. Some of them make you think and challenge one's assumptions.
But they're mostly fossiles over 65, like Rusher, Buchanan, Will and Novak. They have some perspective of history, and at least have witnessed the cycles of American politics firsthand. The younger ones represent a narrowness, sometimes a vile meanness, a right-wing populism that folks like W.F. Buckley tried to separate from the conservative movement in the 60's.
Believe me, the wingnuts are a lot funnier when the GOP is out of power! |
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Obama has been elected President (or will be when the electors make it official). He is going to be presumed a citizen. He will not and should not be required to produce a birth certificate.
As the ones making the allegations you are the ones responsible for providing proof of non-citizenship. You are the ones who must prove a fraudalent or non-existent birth certificate and must produce a valid foreign birth certificate and must be able to prove its authenticity. You are not going to be able to meet the burden of proof.
Looks like we've gone from Clinton Derangement Syndrome to Bush Derangement Syndrome to Obama Derangement Syndrome.
GROW UP!!!
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The absence of news coverage reeks...
No clearance needed for the first time to be President reeks...
None Of Our 3 branches Of Government are activly upholding our Constitution (Supreme Law of the Land) Reeks... (They've all taken oaths) There's no preconditions on supporting it...
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IF HE ONLY HAD AN ORIGINAL DOCUMENTED birth certificate SAYING HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII, AND NOT KENYA! BUT HE WON'T DO IT. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS??? Hmmmmm? WHY WON'T HE DO THAT?
And why don't some of you care?
And why aren't some of you concerned that he may be committing conspiracy and fraud before even taking oath of office?
If you don't mind him doing it now, I guess you won't care if he lies through his teeth to you once he is officially sworn in as Commander and Chief?
This country is full of ignorant, apathetic, Unamerican jerks who will deserve the commie dictator and everything he shoves down your stupid throats! |
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WRONG.......but thanks for playin'........
John McCain is Clearly a US citizen as he was born in the Panama Canal Zone from not one, but two parents who were US citizens and BOTH were in the military........
The law is clear on this.........
John McCain could have been born on a Cruiser in combat in the middle of the Indian Ocean and he would STILL be a US citizen........
Why is Comrade Obama having soooooo much trouble producing a birth certificate that is clearly above reproach?????? |
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"I am of the opinion that anyone advancing the notion that Obama is not a citizen, and thus not qualified to become president, is actually undermining the conservative cause."
Who cares? What's far more important than any cause is the *truth*. And, it's false to definitively state that we know that BHO was born in HI.
Let me repeat that: if you say that BHO was definitively born in HI, you're making a false statement.
We simply *do not know*.
Details:
http://peekURL.com/z7sb1cg
If Matt Lewis disagrees, he should provide *definitive proof*, not just wishful thinking. |
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my mistake. I forgot they were part of the evil liberal media conspiracy too. ;)
Come on, gang. A little perspective and patience is in order. Give the man some time. I'm fairly confident Mr. Obama will do something we can all criticize him for, and if history is any guide, he (like his predecessors) will continue to treat the Constitution like a rag. |
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by using snopes.com
No, I don't think the whole thing will go anywhere, but it is fun to sit back and watch Democrat on Democrat violence. |
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The Supreme Court hasn't ordered Obama to produce his birth certificate, and he hasn't refused to do so. You can't refuse to do something you weren't asked to do. (And no, insane conservatives frothing about it on the internet doesn't count as asking.) |
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this debate. The entire "Obama birth certificate" controversy has been driven by Andy Martin (Hillary Supporting Democrat) and Berg (crazy leftist Democrat -- Hillary supporter) and now Alan Keyes (Independent American Party -- or American Independent Party -- something like that)
Oh sure, the left will TAR Republicans with the whole thing, but it has been Hillary-crazies who have driven the whole sordid affair. |
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Snopes.com, guys. Really a nice source, with links and references and everything. Try it some time.
But, I know, the State of Hawaii is secretly a part of the evil conspiracy in an attempt to get back at us for liberating them from their oppressive monarch on behalf of the good folks of the sugar industry.
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"It enables him to keep a lot of otherwise influential conservatives focused on this canard"
"Influential?" You mean nutcases like MoniQue and Ronna? |
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This is something that should take 15 minutes to sort out, if that. The court should order he produce a birth certificate, then examine it, confirm its authenticity, and then let him proceed to the presidency unobstructed. It's that simple.
You'd think that to suppress stories like this Obama would make a public display of his birth certificate so that people would stop questioning him about it. Instead, these lawsuits about his birth certificate seem to keep getting tied up in endless legal proceedings. There's no reason for such inordinate delay when it comes to producing such a basic document.
I also second the sentiment: "There are conservatives left that like Kathleen Parker? Really?" |
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Your right! We need to focus on taking back the Congress in 2010 and the white house in 2012. |
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The last thing in the world that Obama would want to do is to produce a "legitimate" birth certificate end this controversy. It enables him to keep a lot of otherwise influential conservatives focused on this canard while he busily advances his agenda. It's the same sleight-of-hand used by magicians. Conservatives need to stay focused on the things that really matter (and the things that can actually be settled.) This has spun out of control and has become a black-helicopter-tin-foil-hat urban legend. |
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Check out......Artical 1 Section 6 Clause 2 of the constitution and tell me how the hell Hillary can be named Sec of State. Now that's un-constitutional! |
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You're right on all counts. I can't understand why so many people see the REFUSAL on Obama's part to produce his original birth certificate to the Supreme Court as a non-issue. I guess they think it would be alright for Caesar Chavez to waltz over here and run for President? |
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There are conservatives left that like Kathleen Parker? Really? |
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NOWHERE in the constitution does it say a person holding dual citizenship cannot run for POTUS or hold said office. As hard to believe it's true. Please check out........www.americancronicle.com/articals/27760 or http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html |
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by producing a legitimate copy of a birth certficate that will stand up to scrutiny. So far, he has not been able to do this.
He said that his "administration" would be more transparent, but if he can't be honest about where he was born, well then, we don't have a legal president elect.
His past was never vetted. He left a community college, while doing cocaine, went on a world tour and no one knows how or who paid for it. Then he enters, wit horrible grades, prestigious schools and no one know how he paid for the school. Then he refuses to allow anyone to see his grades or what he published as the President of the Harvard Review.
This could be our first stealth and illegal president. And he will not bring the country together, he will divide it totally. He will not be a president of those tha believe in the Rule of Law, he will be the president of chaos and lawlessness. |
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It is not ridiculous to question whether or Obama is not a Natural Born citizen of the United States, and thus not qualified to become president, and to say it is actually undermining the conservative cause is an even worse thing for you to do.
Don't you care about the Constitution Mr. Lewis?
And how can you explain away the FACT that Obama REFUSES to provide the SUPREME COURT with his original birth certificate?
This notion that we Conservatives are a bunch of conspiracy theorists is an excuse to let crap go that should be analyzed and scrutinized instead of letting it slide; that's the Liberal point of view. Our laws are supposed to be obeyed and NO ONE is above obeying the laws...not even "The One" (the one 'WHAT' comes to mind, but I can't use that language here.)
For you to accept his behavior says volumes about your patriotism, you stinking Liberal incognito! |
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Demanding Obama to produce a birth certificate is one thing. Putting the 'legit' qualifier in is what this discussion boils down to.
As Ambinder's blog links, the Obama campaign produced a copy of his Hawaii birth certificate in June. There can be dispute after dispute after dispute over its veracity, but it seems that for some people, anything less than seeing Obama's original certificate in person would not suffice. Which, of course, is impossible.
I agree with Matt in saying that bringing this up repeatedly in an attempt to get it into the mainstream has hurt legitimate criticisms of Obama. I don't want him as President, and I especially don't want him as President who can swipe away criticisms of, say, his tax policies with a "Oh, what do they know, they still think I'm a Muslim." |
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this IS a constitutional matter and if the SCOTUS refuses to enforce the law, then we might as well call America a "dictatorship"! |
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Obama has yet to be vetted. We know little to nothing about him. I, for one, am not overly concerned about the birth certificate issue, except for the fact that it shows that he is hiding something. Some conspiracy theorists think that he was not born in Hawaii. A possibility is that he has been less than truthful about who his real father is. Perhaps it was Frank Marshall Davis. Davis had a history of sexual advances toward under aged girls. That destroys the narrative that BHO has built for himself. I find it strange that no one from his past has come forward to talk about him. He seems to have no friends, outside of a few lowlife types. No one in the Media took it upon himself to contact his drug dealer, even though Obama confessed to using cocaine. What is more disturbing is that over 50% of the American people voted for him when they knew so little about the man.
All Obama has to do is produce the bc and I would like to see him produce some of the other documents like college transcripts, thesis, etc. |
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has to do is: Produce a legit BC!
Is that too DAMN much to ask or is the constitution lrrelevant? |
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One born in the Republic of Panama, particularly the Canal zone Area, which was a lawful U.S. territory, which was granted in 1903 when the U.S. "Bought" which means paid for the Independence of Panama from Colombia, was, and still would have been rightful U.S. territory. Anyone born in that area which had military hospitals, military commissary, even civilians police forces, had jurisdiction over that area. Anyone born at Gorgas Memorial Army Hospital, was considered a U.S. Citizen by birth.
I was born a panamanian Citizen, when I became a "Naturalized American Citizen" I had to renounce my Panamanian Citizenship. No one holding dual citizenship can hold public office for this would construe a conflict of interest due to the possibility of duress by one government spying on another.
So if Mr. Obama has dual citizenship he cannot hold political office or get a security clearance. Senator McCain, can, would and should since he was born on U.S. territory, in a U.S. hospital. |
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If this was such a problem, just show us the proof and this will all go away. Barry Goldwater and McCain were vetted. George Romney, i don't think, ran for President.
It is a legit claim that many sought out for. If we live by the Constitution, we need to defend it. This is a Constitutional matter. To dismiss it is very foolish. |
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